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-Avalon-
09-17-2012, 06:49 PM
I remember seeing a few reasons we should have this... both lore wise, and mechanics wise...

In Forgotten Realms, it is very common for powerful elven clerics to take on a form of lichdom/Wraithform/Zombie/Skeleton to protect the tombs or cities (like Myth Drannor).

In Eberron, the elves even have a religion based on the idea of 'being undead': The Undying Court. The Deathless are not quite undead, but neither are palemasters truly.

Even in various manuals where liches are mentioned, they say that a lich is someone who was either a very powerful wizard or cleric.

And then, we have mechanics... the clerics have a line of enhancements that players get only because it increases their ability to heal... yet, almost everyone I have talked to forgets that it does the exact same for Negative energy spells... the reason it is forgotten? Because clerics really do not have a reason to ever cast a negative energy spell... sure there may be exceptions, but generally, they cast buffs, heals, BB's, etc... The only negative spells I EVER see them cast (and usually it is a request to have them slot the spells to begin with) are Harm and Energy Drain...

So, we have plenty of lore saying clerics should have something like a palemaster, and we also have stuff already in the game for it... could even have an enhancement that changes the spontaneous casting slot from cure to inflict, so that the PM Cleric always has Inflicts memmed...

Havok.cry
09-17-2012, 07:13 PM
Honestly I think ALL the pre's should be separate from theclasses, like the epic destinies are. For many many reasons, most of which are simular to the ones in your post.

CaptainSpacePony
09-17-2012, 07:45 PM
I am CaptainSpacePony and I approve this message.

Antiguo
09-17-2012, 08:05 PM
You are talking about the Master of the Shrouds pre, and i totally would love it implemented.

fmalfeas
09-17-2012, 08:41 PM
I remember seeing a few reasons we should have this... both lore wise, and mechanics wise...

In Forgotten Realms, it is very common for powerful elven clerics to take on a form of lichdom/Wraithform/Zombie/Skeleton to protect the tombs or cities (like Myth Drannor).


Actually, it's extremely /rare/. The elves that become a Baelnorn are considered to have made a tremendous sacrifice for their people, because they will never see the afterlife, nor will they see Evermeet. Some few elves, much like any other race, end up lingering after death as a spectre to guard very important relics, though it's not so much an intentional decision as it is happenstance.

Also, a Baelnorn is not a lich. It's something very special. Transformation into a lich warps the soul, and bends the new lich to evil.

CaptainSpacePony
09-17-2012, 09:00 PM
Actually, it's extremely /rare/. The elves that become a Baelnorn are considered to have made a tremendous sacrifice for their people, because they will never see the afterlife, nor will they see Evermeet. Some few elves, much like any other race, end up lingering after death as a spectre to guard very important relics, though it's not so much an intentional decision as it is happenstance.

Also, a Baelnorn is not a lich. It's something very special. Transformation into a lich warps the soul, and bends the new lich to evil.

Interesting lore, but nothing in there that argues for or against the OP's suggestion. I'll take that as a, "I Support the suggestion BUT feel the lore should be more carefully fleshed out by implementation time."

gphysalis
09-17-2012, 09:14 PM
No.

Clerics should get more than pale master.

Quote from PnP pale master text:

"Necromancy is usually a poor choice for arcane spellcasters--those who really want to master the deathless arts almost always pursue divine means."

Clerics should have more necromantic options than wizards, not the same

Aerach
09-17-2012, 09:29 PM
Pale Masters are not liches. Or summoners particularly. They're mad goths who experiment on themselves. A pnp PM doesn't just have a shroud they can toggle, they are doing grafts and body modification.

So.... no one can really do the stuff you're arguing about lore wise here~ (but yes, real summoning/lichdom etc is a more death-god-cleric territory)

sephiroth1084
09-17-2012, 09:39 PM
No.

Clerics should get more than pale master.

Quote from PnP pale master text:

"Necromancy is usually a poor choice for arcane spellcasters--those who really want to master the deathless arts almost always pursue divine means."

Clerics should have more necromantic options than wizards, not the same
They do. They can turn undead and wield all sorts of positive energy and light spells and effects, which are generally more effective against undead. Clerics are probably the best undead killers in DDO--they have Undeath to Death, Positive Energy Burst, and Divine Punishment.

As for the OP's comments...I feel that the PrEs should be open to all classes, with the "target" class having easier entry and perhaps better use for some of the abilities therein (similar to the way Epic Destinies work). Short of that, no, I don't think there should be a cleric version of the Pale Master in DDO. I don't have a cleric, but from what I see, even highly focused negative energy clerics deal poor damage with Inflict spells and often eschew Harm for better options. And unlike wizards, all clerics can heal themselves effectively, regardless of race, and have better tools for doing so than PMs do. That leaves the other benefits of Lichdom and such, some of which would be kind of nice for a cleric, but are hardly highly attractive.

I suspect that the Hunter of the Dead PrE will fulfill the 'skilled at dealing with undead' flavor, but there just isn't a need for an undead cleric archetype in DDO right now, especially with so many other, more relevant things that need doing.

countfitz
09-17-2012, 09:52 PM
Let's "hope" when they redo the PrEs in U16 this November, that humans and helves will get to do whichever PrE they want, so you could be a human or helf palemaster cleric like the OP wants.

:)

Wishful thinking.

fmalfeas
09-17-2012, 10:03 PM
Honestly, I wish they could implement the True Necromancer prestige somehow. It was a split Cleric/Wizard prestige, heavily focused on the use of undead minions, making use of the best of the cleric and wizard necromancies, and the evil cleric's power to control undead instead of turning them.

Problems being the non-scaling nature of summons, and the limited number of them you can have. A True Necromancer could easily have a small army of them with him, particularly if he further prestiged into a Horned Harbinger (where you get a fragment of the lingering power of Myrkul.)

One of the powers of that prestige, in fact it's crown jewel, is called 'General of Undeath'. Sure, it'd be laggy, but your minions would likely wipe out all opposition through sheer numbers during the lag.

Karavek
09-17-2012, 10:05 PM
I totally endorse the idea of PM being added to clerics as an alternate PRE. It would be an easy fix until they do the overall pass to Enhancements and give those playing clerics a very viable alternative to the current HEALER PRE that RS sadly gets labeled as.

Id also suggest that all elves gain a racial line to invest in if they choose, called the path of the undying, that would allow them to gain very basic undead status with a few minor perks that would increased through the tiers. Not only would this create a larger player base that would get more in sync with the current undead players, but create some very interesting changes to the view of elves as a squishy race.

Imagine undead fighters and barbs working with PMs and their death aura. It would be at least as effective as running with RS and their aura.

If the age of Iron has ended, maybe its time for the age of undead.

Also can we drop zombie form, which is a mindless undead type, and change it to Wight Form, seeing as there are many wight wizards and priests in the game.

-Avalon-
09-17-2012, 10:23 PM
They do. They can turn undead and wield all sorts of positive energy and light spells and effects, which are generally more effective against undead. Clerics are probably the best undead killers in DDO--they have Undeath to Death, Positive Energy Burst, and Divine Punishment.

As for the OP's comments...I feel that the PrEs should be open to all classes, with the "target" class having easier entry and perhaps better use for some of the abilities therein (similar to the way Epic Destinies work). Short of that, no, I don't think there should be a cleric version of the Pale Master in DDO. I don't have a cleric, but from what I see, even highly focused negative energy clerics deal poor damage with Inflict spells and often eschew Harm for better options. And unlike wizards, all clerics can heal themselves effectively, regardless of race, and have better tools for doing so than PMs do. That leaves the other benefits of Lichdom and such, some of which would be kind of nice for a cleric, but are hardly highly attractive.

I suspect that the Hunter of the Dead PrE will fulfill the 'skilled at dealing with undead' flavor, but there just isn't a need for an undead cleric archetype in DDO right now, especially with so many other, more relevant things that need doing.

Who said that the cleric 'PM' would be created to be an Undead Slayer? Heck, my Palemaster has an easier time fighting living targets than undead ones...

And some of the reasons Clerics don't use Inflicts, is because they do not gear themselves for it, nor do they get the PM abilities...

Even only slightly geared/enhanced, my PM does 30-50 per tick on Death Aura. Wiki says 2d4 + 1 per 2 caster levels, I was 15 Wiz when I TR'd, so 2d4+7 (9-15) so 3 times damage due to mediocre enhancements and gear (144 Negative Spellpower). I cannot find any definitive ways to calculate how much spellpower actually helps out, so just estimating based on experience.

Inflict Critical Wounds (Mass), does 4d6+8+Caster Level (Max of 40)... Just giving 20 Clr/Max ED would be 4d6+8+25 at least. Range of 37-57. Considering Clerics have enhancements for negative anyways, 80 more spellpower/+9% Crit Chance/2.25 times damage on crits... but even without those, just having what I had, they would do approximately 120-180 without crits AOE... and that is considering just non-epic gear, nothing extra thrown in, just base info...

And also, consider that the same amount hits the Cleric for healing (like Death Aura does for PM's)...

I think the reason the devs DON'T implement something like this, is that right now, it is very difficult to make a viable PM Melee-Type without grinding out gear or having TR'd... Cleric PM's could wear Full Plate/shields day one... add in 2 levels of ftr to keep 18 levels to have the 3rd rank of the PrE, and now they can use Tower Shields or use 2HF with no problems whatsoever... We already have battle clerics, having a battle cleric with access to wraith form, or lich form, would be too much :rolleyes:

sephiroth1084
09-17-2012, 10:42 PM
I believe the comment you quoted about clerics making better necromancers was alluding to their ability to use Rebuke Undead to control, rather than destroy, undead, in addition to having fairly even access to necromancy staples as wizards do, which makes them, theoretically, better necromancers, although wizard necromantic insta-kills are a bit better in DDO. PnP may be closer with all the other spell options. Plus, clerics gain access to all spells available, whereas wizards have fewer to choose from for free, and have to do research and spend gold to gain more.

The cleric spell power line for negative energy doesn't stack with the bonuses Pale Master grants, so that would be largely irrelevant (though I think clerics can now get a bigger bonus than PM grants).

I'm pretty sure that the reasons the devs have never mentioned a PM-type cleric PrE are:


An attempt to give the classes further definition through unique enhancement lines.
A desire to keep the number of options and additions somewhat manageable (which they apparently haven't even been able to manage with a goal of only 3 PrEs per class, over the last 2+ years).
A huge backlog of work they need to do just to get everyone the PrEs they outlined long ago.

Not because they are afraid of undead clerics in heavy armor. Clerics in heavy armor with /2 fighter are doing basically exactly what a PM-cleric would be doing already anyway. You have an aura that is better than Death Aura, because it is affected by healing amp, a burst, similar to Negative Energy Burst, that uses no SP, heals everyone else as well, clears all sorts of negative conditions, and does a lot of damage to enemy undead. Then you have Heal, which is the best single-target curative spell in the game, regardless of class or living status.

Khatzhas
09-17-2012, 10:57 PM
Likewise the Deathless are not liches. They are sustained by Positive energy and the faith of most of the elves.

In PnP, Evil clerics (and neutral if they chose) spontaneously cast inflicts, and control rather than turn undead. They are unlikely to change to that option in DDO. (Then again, there is always that 3rd PrE.)

goodoldxelos
09-18-2012, 06:20 AM
Honestly I think ALL the pre's should be separate from theclasses, like the epic destinies are. For many many reasons, most of which are simular to the ones in your post.

/signed

I've been saying this for a long time.

The epic destinies are not really separate, for example a lot of the benefits are class specific (ex: the magister caster level increases don't benefit clerics/fvs/paladins etc when they should)

the613
09-18-2012, 07:29 AM
My opinion is they should use feats and generic enhancements only as prereqs for prestiges, then separation of prestiges from classes is a possibility, and I personally think they should be separate. We should only be able to select a total of 3 prestiges to advance in though, keeping people from having kensai, AA, DoS, SD, and PM on the same build. Though something like that would definitely be fun...........

Dexxaan
09-18-2012, 10:28 AM
Very interesting reading, BUT


Can we fix the Ladder Bug first? :D


.

-Avalon-
09-18-2012, 03:52 PM
Well, if they made it just like destinies, then you would need so many levels of X class before you could choose that destiny, unless you 'worked your way over' to the one you wanted... And I guess they could do that... but not sure exactly how they would do that...

Maybe make it so that you can pick one PrE at 6th, and another at 12th, and last one at 18th? That way you get max 3 PrE's, and if you want to work around until you get to one that is not based on your particular class(es), then you could, would just take longer... Or maybe make it so you can pick one at 6th, but if you wanted to pick one that is like your class(es) (but not based on your class(es) or diametrically opposed) then you could sacrifice your 12th level choice to change the 6th level one, and at 18, could sacrifice your choice to pick any PrE...

That way, if you played a wizard, and wanted Kensai (but played 20 lvls of Wizard), then you could, but it would be your ONLY PrE (since wizard and fighter are considered usually to be complete opposites)... Or, you could have a 20 fighter who takes SD at 6th, then uses the other two choices to take KotC or whatever... The cleric could then us two choices to take Palemaster...

/shrug... just thoughts on how they could make all PrE's available, yet keep some unique class flavor and strengths, along with balancing game a little.

Alaunra2010
09-18-2012, 04:19 PM
Honestly I think ALL the pre's should be separate from theclasses, like the epic destinies are. For many many reasons, most of which are simular to the ones in your post.

Heck I think they should split belief from race too, for that matter.