PDA

View Full Version : Hardness and Durablity increase of Books (Tomes)



Daemoneyes
09-16-2012, 10:46 AM
why the Increase?
ever tried to destroy a book? go ahead!
take something cheap or worthless, a catalog or a phonebook and try it.
You will find out that they are tough little buggers
And old Bound Books (like Tomes) made from Pergament and Leather are even way Tougher.

# its nigh impossible to destroy a Book with someting like Arrows/Bolts/Throwing Weapons, damage possible but not destroy.
(not to mention the impossibility to hit the same book twice with all the **** the average adventurer carries with him)

# And darn hard to even damage them with Melee Weapons, majority of melee Weapons and that includes Swords is made to Stab and/or Destroy Muscles and Break Bones, not to Cut!

# Actually the only Cutting Weapons were forged in Lands where it was to Hot to wear Metal Armor or Metal was to rare for Metal Armor to be common, cause cutting Weapons are useless against Metal Armor.
And with Warforged and Metal Armor this common in Ebberon and Faerun its safe to say there are almost zero Cutting Weapons, so Books (Tomes) should get an Hardness and Durability increase. (triple or quadruple at least)

zarthak
09-16-2012, 10:51 AM
/signed

ALSO make mana pots,xp,guild pots NOT breakable. seeing my xp pots getting broken sucks, same goes for mana pots

Khatzhas
09-16-2012, 10:58 AM
# And darn hard to even damage them with Melee Weapons, majority of melee Weapons and that includes Swords is made to Stab and/or Destroy Muscles and Break Bones, not to Cut!

# Actually the only Cutting Weapons were forged in Lands where it was to Hot to wear Metal Armor or Metal was to rare for Metal Armor to be common, cause cutting Weapons are useless against Metal Armor.
And with Warforged and Metal Armor this common in Ebberon and Faerun its safe to say there are almost zero Cutting Weapons, so Books (Tomes) should get an Hardness and Durability increase. (triple or quadruple at least)

Huh?

CaptainSpacePony
09-16-2012, 02:47 PM
I suspect a meteor swarm to the 'ol Bag 'o Holding would mess up a lot of books.

Spell books are already indestructible. The others should be consumed or banked.

Krelar
09-16-2012, 03:26 PM
Don't worry if your book breaks you can use the new oil of repair!
'Cause pouring oil on a book sounds like a great idea! :D

Habreno
09-16-2012, 04:28 PM
Don't worry if your book breaks you can use the new oil of repair!
'Cause pouring oil on a book sounds like a great idea! :D


*Facepalm*




Not a personal thing, but a literal thing. Pour oil on a book that's been destroyed and it comes back.... GENIUS!

Raist1280
09-16-2012, 05:25 PM
...snip...
# And darn hard to even damage them with Melee Weapons, majority of melee Weapons and that includes Swords is made to Stab and/or Destroy Muscles and Break Bones, not to Cut!

# Actually the only Cutting Weapons were forged in Lands where it was to Hot to wear Metal Armor or Metal was to rare for Metal Armor to be common, cause cutting Weapons are useless against Metal Armor.
And with Warforged and Metal Armor this common in Ebberon and Faerun its safe to say there are almost zero Cutting Weapons,
...snip...


I hate to dash your logic/reasoning, but applying read-world concepts to a fantasy role-playing game simply DOES NOT WORK. "Cutting Weapons" as you but it, would be (in game terms) slashing weapons, which are FAR more common than "Stab" weapons (piercing), khopesh, scimitar, greatsword, any axe, etc. are all defined as slashing in game... while you make an incredibly good point in the real world (that medeval weapondry was mostly about piercing and blunt damage), such simply isn't the case in fantasy (in general) or DDO (specifically). Yes, books are far more robust than the meager durability that DDO assigns them, *but* they *are* far more suceptible to most melee weapons than you give them credit for, since slashing weapons are much, MUCH more commonplace in the game than you are assuming.

That said, I would assume that the durability of tomes in game has more to do with "don't carry it around unused unless you want it destroyed". Tomes belong (rightfully so) either in your bank, on a mule/alt or consumed. If you carry it around in your backpack while adventuring, you are taking a risk with it, and if it get destroyed (and you care) then a) you "earned" that reality and b) you probably won't make the same mistake again.

Musouka
09-16-2012, 05:30 PM
why the Increase?
ever tried to destroy a book? go ahead!
take something cheap or worthless, a catalog or a phonebook and try it.
You will find out that they are tough little buggers
And old Bound Books (like Tomes) made from Pergament and Leather are even way Tougher.

# its nigh impossible to destroy a Book with someting like Arrows/Bolts/Throwing Weapons, damage possible but not destroy.
(not to mention the impossibility to hit the same book twice with all the **** the average adventurer carries with him)

# And darn hard to even damage them with Melee Weapons, majority of melee Weapons and that includes Swords is made to Stab and/or Destroy Muscles and Break Bones, not to Cut!

# Actually the only Cutting Weapons were forged in Lands where it was to Hot to wear Metal Armor or Metal was to rare for Metal Armor to be common, cause cutting Weapons are useless against Metal Armor.
And with Warforged and Metal Armor this common in Ebberon and Faerun its safe to say there are almost zero Cutting Weapons, so Books (Tomes) should get an Hardness and Durability increase. (triple or quadruple at least)


What about the magical weapons that deal fire damage? Wouldn't those burn the books? Not to mention acid eating them...

Also then there is just magical fire and acid...

donfilibuster
09-16-2012, 05:37 PM
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]why the Increase?
ever tried to destroy a book? go ahead!
take something cheap or worthless, a catalog or a phonebook and try it.
You will find out that they are tough little buggers

Yeah but there was one even more tough little bugger called the DM that would keep trying to burn your spellbook :P
Certainly a tome wouldn't be a good book to read in a park, risk it burning is the least of your problems.
Nevertheless you won't believe how many calamities can befall on your backpack if the DM gets creative and inspired.
Boccob's blessed book exists for a reason :)

Silverwren
09-17-2012, 08:12 AM
I'm not entirely sure why this is being suggested, nor why anyone would carry stat tomes for an extended length of time in the first place.

As for the added suggestion to "ALSO make mana pots,xp,guild pots NOT breakable", no. Given the time period we game within, the containers are probably earthen ware jars or crude glass with stoppers. For all intents and purposes, these should probably break far more often then they currently do.

Bottom line: If you carry it, it can (and should, from time to time) get broken. Want it safe? Use it or bank it.

donfilibuster
09-17-2012, 08:56 AM
As for the added suggestion to "ALSO make mana pots,xp,guild pots NOT breakable", no. Given the time period we game within, the containers are probably earthen ware jars or crude glass with stoppers. For all intents and purposes, these should probably break far more often then they currently do.

Except the stack of major sp pots can break like four at a time, which is often many times the worth of the loot you vendor from the quest.
Sure the vials are fragile, they are plain vials, but where that risk exist one tends to store em in safe boxes or proofed containers.
(handy haversack or the belt of many pouches, etc.)

Silverwren
09-17-2012, 09:28 AM
Except the stack of major sp pots can break like four at a time, which is often many times the worth of the loot you vendor from the quest.
Sure the vials are fragile, they are plain vials, but where that risk exist one tends to store em in safe boxes or proofed containers.
(handy haversack or the belt of many pouches, etc.)

That's a risk we all take. Carry just two mem pots then. Store the rest.

As for the Haversack or the Belt, correct me if I'm wrong, but these don't exist in DDO, so I'm not sure where you're going with that.

notte.oscura
09-17-2012, 10:11 AM
I see no need to use development time on this trivial thing. Bank the books. Solved.

If you find a +4 tome and you are afraid of breaking it before the quest ends, recall, use it and reenter :D

Silverwren
09-17-2012, 11:33 AM
I see no need to use development time on this trivial thing. Bank the books. Solved.

If you find a +4 tome and you are afraid of breaking it before the quest ends, recall, use it and reenter :D

Heck, I'd tell everyone to wait for 30 seconds while I read it then and there! :p

EbbOnFire
09-17-2012, 11:38 AM
We're talking about a magic book...

that anyone can read, regardless of intelligence or languages known...

that you can read in about a minute...

that disappears completely once it has been read...

and after you read it, all of your muscles get stronger. Permanently.


I think the reality train left the station a while back.

donfilibuster
09-17-2012, 05:45 PM
Carrying tomes was usually under lv7 with one (full) bank tab, though in that case the tome ought to have priority.
For alts mostly, since TRs no longer lose the tome.


That's a risk we all take. Carry just two mem pots then. Store the rest.

As for the Haversack or the Belt, correct me if I'm wrong, but these don't exist in DDO, so I'm not sure where you're going with that.
Just examples, mean that while is a risk we all take because it exist in DDO, indeed, it's a pointless risk that shouldn't exist.

These days it's all easier, healers no longer need to salvage a raid like in a VoD taking too long.
Two work fine for quests, or zero for blast happy quests like reenter the kobold, but isn't somethng that gotta be set in stone.

Daemoneyes
09-19-2012, 10:27 AM
I hate to dash your logic/reasoning, but applying read-world concepts to a fantasy role-playing game simply DOES NOT WORK. "Cutting Weapons" as you but it, would be (in game terms) slashing weapons, which are FAR more common than "Stab" weapons (piercing), khopesh, scimitar, greatsword, any axe, etc. are all defined as slashing in game... while you make an incredibly good point in the real world (that medeval weapondry was mostly about piercing and blunt damage), such simply isn't the case in fantasy (in general) or DDO (specifically). Yes, books are far more robust than the meager durability that DDO assigns them, *but* they *are* far more suceptible to most melee weapons than you give them credit for, since slashing weapons are much, MUCH more commonplace in the game than you are assuming.

That said, I would assume that the durability of tomes in game has more to do with "don't carry it around unused unless you want it destroyed". Tomes belong (rightfully so) either in your bank, on a mule/alt or consumed. If you carry it around in your backpack while adventuring, you are taking a risk with it, and if it get destroyed (and you care) then a) you "earned" that reality and b) you probably won't make the same mistake again.


you misunderstood me

Most Slashing Weapons do not cut paper.
They have an edge but that edge is not made sharp.

exceptions are mostly Katana like i said, as the Katana was used against unarmored or lightly armored with cloth/wood/bambus armor. Only the richest folks had metal plates or threads to toughen it. there are more weapons like the Katana, but in regions with Metal Armor common almost no weapon had sharp edges


khopesh, scimitar, greatsword are not sharp they have an edge but that edge does not cut paper, you even have a hard time cutting your finger on it.
and all Axe that are used for war are not sharp.

that edge is from 1mm to several mm. \_/
would the weapon have a razor sharp edge the first few hits on Armor/Shield would dent the edge and make it way more ineffective then the broad edge.
also hits against other weapon would inflict to much damage onto the blade

@bank it
really would like to be able to bank them but i got most my Tomes at mid questing from a Chest and i dont think my groups would like me to recall just because i got an Tome.
and they get damaged 90% of the time till quest ending

so it would be okay for you if i pike after getting a tome? or recall and reenter?
dont waste your time answering that...

Daemoneyes
09-19-2012, 10:30 AM
Heck, I'd tell everyone to wait for 30 seconds while I read it then and there! :p

they dont stack, so would you enlighten me and say why i should read a +3 tome when i already have one applied on that stat?

Daemoneyes
09-19-2012, 10:33 AM
We're talking about a magic book...

that anyone can read, regardless of intelligence or languages known...

that you can read in about a minute...

that disappears completely once it has been read...

and after you read it, all of your muscles get stronger. Permanently.


I think the reality train left the station a while back.

@Magic
yupp yupp yupp
true dat, but if we start talkin about the magix
why not talk about the fact that all the stuff we carry is in one of several Bag of Holding! where it should not take damage to begin with...

Daemoneyes
09-19-2012, 10:43 AM
What about the magical weapons that deal fire damage? Wouldn't those burn the books? Not to mention acid eating them...

Also then there is just magical fire and acid...

first, good point
but a highly magical book should not take much damage from magic or?
at least for me it sounds like fighting fire with benzol

also i cant imagine that the creators of this books invest thousands of experience points and huge amounts of Time and Platin to create them and not make them tough.
Tough like inbuilt damage and elemental absorb like all the precious Spellbooks get.

Aside from that Leather alone is very tough and does not burn easily and it takes really strong Acid to desolve it.

Silverwren
09-19-2012, 11:23 AM
they dont stack, so would you enlighten me and say why i should read a +3 tome when i already have one applied on that stat?

I didn't say you. I said me.

The reason: Over the course of five toons and three years I have only seen two +3 tomes of any stat drop, and one was an end reward from Shroud. So chances are I haven't read a +3 one and if the toon I'm running can use the boost, I'm reading it right there, quest be damned! :D

donfilibuster
09-19-2012, 12:15 PM
Aside from that Leather alone is very tough and does not burn easily and it takes really strong Acid to desolve it.[/COLOR]
We are talking strong fires and strong acid anyways, the likes of Reenter the Kobold that breaks half your stuff.

However it shouldn't be an issue on the first place because permanent damage is surely a MMO thing,
whereas on PnP you can repair a magic item as if it were non-magical, and it doesn't lose its properties.
Granted it'd take more than mend to reconstitute burnt writing but still not as hard as creating it.

samthedagger
09-19-2012, 12:27 PM
/signed

ALSO make mana pots,xp,guild pots NOT breakable. seeing my xp pots getting broken sucks, same goes for mana potsDear God, yes! Can we switch the subject of this post and make it about this instead? I carry around stacks of all five varieties of mnemonic pots and the only ones it every seems to break when I roll a natural 1 are the Major pots. Sometimes 3 at a time! Seriously!?!

Khatzhas
09-19-2012, 04:30 PM
Most Slashing Weapons do not cut paper.
They have an edge but that edge is not made sharp.

exceptions are mostly Katana like i said, as the Katana was used against unarmored or lightly armored with cloth/wood/bambus armor. Only the richest folks had metal plates or threads to toughen it. there are more weapons like the Katana, but in regions with Metal Armor common almost no weapon had sharp edges


khopesh, scimitar, greatsword are not sharp they have an edge but that edge does not cut paper, you even have a hard time cutting your finger on it.
and all Axe that are used for war are not sharp.

that edge is from 1mm to several mm. \_/
would the weapon have a razor sharp edge the first few hits on Armor/Shield would dent the edge and make it way more ineffective then the broad edge.
also hits against other weapon would inflict to much damage onto the blade Scimitars, sabres etc, are functionally the same as katana: a curved blade to aid a slash against unarmoured flesh. All of them rely on the sharpness of their edge and all have fairly equivalent performance.

Straight western medieval swords aren't generally as sharp, but they most certainly had an effective edge: remember that most of the combatants of the time did not wear metal armour. The half-sword and mordhau type techniques generally relied on wearing gauntlets. Likewise for axes: the blades are light, thin, and generally very sharp.
Sword techniques were not about hammering at an armoured opponent: there was very little blade contact precisely because it would damage the edges. There was a lot of avoidance by movement, countercutting, wrestling and thrusting.

Also remember that we're not talking about slashing up a free piece of paper here, we're cutting into a solid book.


and they get damaged 90% of the time till quest ending Then all I can say is that you have been really, really unlucky.

donfilibuster
09-19-2012, 10:12 PM
For the record, the CA book has an entry for "protecting a spellbook".
Leather has negligible hardness, zero hp, 100 pages of parchment have zero hardness, negligible hp.
Best listed easy-to-get non-magical choice is metal foils, which still gives little on hardness and hp (durability in ddo).

The common spellbook is replaceable, a wizard would keep the good ones safe, hidden and proofed.
Magical protections cost multiples of 1000 gp and include energy resistance, waterproof, pest repelent, etc.

Stat tomes are regular magic items, mean you can use any book you want as base item.
One would assume they come proofed, but you otherwise it is up to the creator.
(unlike xp tomes, those were artifacts)

The real protection is from where you store or carry it and the rule that magic items need be targeted to get damaged.



Scimitars, sabres
tc, are functionally the same as katana: a curved blade to aid a slash against unarmoured flesh. All of them rely on the sharpness of their edge and all have fairly equivalent performance.

Interestingly enough, the scimitars and katanas are on the way to become finesse weapons as we speak, on d&d next (aka 5e).

Musouka
09-19-2012, 11:22 PM
first, good point
but a highly magical book should not take much damage from magic or?
at least for me it sounds like fighting fire with benzol

also i cant imagine that the creators of this books invest thousands of experience points and huge amounts of Time and Platin to create them and not make them tough.
Tough like inbuilt damage and elemental absorb like all the precious Spellbooks get.

Aside from that Leather alone is very tough and does not burn easily and it takes really strong Acid to desolve it.

You mean like how all my magical buffs just manage to make me impervious to all magical damage?

Right... these books are abundant, why would you claim that the creators invest so much into creating them.

Worldcrafter
09-20-2012, 12:00 AM
Perhaps it is the magical nature of the tome itself that makes it more fragile. Maybe the mystical energies used to inscribe the tome and what transfers the knowledge and capability (ie, stat points) to the reader makes the medium weaker then normal and exceedingly difficult to properly ward. Of course, if you're thinking in that vein, why not wonder why the original creator lost the tome? I mean, if they're spending the time, energy, and resources to make the tome (and potentially ward it), why does the tome show up in Random Treasure Chest #149?

Additionally, while a phone book may be hard to completely destroy, it is not magical in nature. Perhaps the enchantment itself is fragile; a few torn pages might not mean much to the book's welfare, but to the mystical nature of the tome, it might be disastrous. A "completely destroyed" tome might have a limited amount of actual damage to the pages and whatnot, but the enchantment's just disrupted too much to exist.

Bunker
09-20-2012, 12:05 AM
Aside from Mnemonic potions and any other useful potion for everyday questing, why are they in your backpack?

If you loot a guild pot, or renown pot, or xp pot, or tome/manual and it gets destroyed before the quest is over. Well that is simply you rolling a 1 over and over again. Rare but possible.

Renown Pots, Xp Pots and tomes/manuals should be used, or put in bank. If you "choose" to carry them, you are asking to loose them.

-Bunk

P.S. As for major mnemonic potions. Well some players think they are over-powered. So once in a while, you get smacked with a Fireball, roll a 1, and poof a potion gets destroyed. If you choose to carry something "potentially over-powered", then you choose to risk loosing it.

obscure.jester
09-20-2012, 06:42 PM
when you'll realise you are running around with one or more entire armors in a portable hole bag plus an armery, a jewelry store, a bank in plat and an enitre collection of shoes, in a world where there are some guys who never go to sleep and are 24/7/365 stuck in a bar waiting to teleport your soul back from the deads, you won't probably bother much about the realistic hardness of a tome.

Worldcrafter
09-20-2012, 07:03 PM
when you'll realise you are running around with one or more entire armors in a portable hole bag plus an armery, a jewelry store, a bank in plat and an enitre collection of shoes, in a world where there are some guys who never go to sleep and are 24/7/365 stuck in a bar waiting to teleport your soul back from the deads, you won't probably bother much about the realistic hardness of a tome.

Ah, but what you didn't know is that one of the requirements to being a soul binder is that you must be one of a set of triplets, all devoted to the same cause. They just change shifts when you're not looking.

EbbOnFire
09-21-2012, 04:52 PM
when you'll realise you are running around with one or more entire armors in a portable hole bag plus an armery, a jewelry store, a bank in plat and an enitre collection of shoes, in a world where there are some guys who never go to sleep and are 24/7/365 stuck in a bar waiting to teleport your soul back from the deads, you won't probably bother much about the realistic hardness of a tome.

Yep. Until they fix the fact that my character can change armor without taking off his shoes, I'm not going to lose any sleep over fragile tomes. I mean, I can't even do that with the jeans I'm wearing right now.

soulaeon
09-22-2012, 06:02 PM
Signed.
That, or remove the durability all together.