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View Full Version : Remove level range from Raids.



Bloodhaven
09-11-2012, 12:08 PM
http://s8.postimage.org/ad20e0a0j/Raid_Window.jpg

This will allow people to still gain xp in a raid that high levels are in.

Keep the min levels of the raid/epic but do not penalize people if they have a level 25 in the raid.

Keep in mind this would be for Raid content only.

madmaxhunter
09-11-2012, 12:13 PM
If I'm reading you correctly, you want a drop-down selection like Challenges have? I.E. Chronoscope, now level 6 norm, 8 elite would be Select: 6-25?

Sounds like a decent idea, but would take too much programming IMO to accomplish.

dterror
09-11-2012, 12:18 PM
I believe what he is saying is that if a raid normally whatever min level (such as Shroud, 16) has a level 25 in there, it would not cause over-level exp penalties. I assume he means you would get the normal penalty for difference between your level and the highest level party member (power levelling), but that highest level party member would not also cause additional penalty for being over quest min level.

Havok.cry
09-11-2012, 12:26 PM
I'm sorry, but if this were to be implemented the world would end, the universe implode and the price of tea in china would skyrocket.

Bloodhaven
09-11-2012, 12:32 PM
I believe what he is saying is that if a raid normally whatever min level (such as Shroud, 16) has a level 25 in there, it would not cause over-level exp penalties. I assume he means you would get the normal penalty for difference between your level and the highest level party member (power levelling), but that highest level party member would not also cause additional penalty for being over quest min level.

You are mostly correct.
I propose maintaining the minimum level requirement for raids but eliminating any xp penalty in raids. The Level and the over level penalty.

Not asking for a drop down menu.

Although a drop-down window for ALL content would be ideal. 1-30 level range. Never hear complaints again about no content for whatever level.. Lots of dev time would be needed on this. Maybe just make all new content with the 1-30 drop-down menu. This should be easier than doing all of the content.

madmaxhunter
09-11-2012, 04:35 PM
You are mostly correct.
I propose maintaining the minimum level requirement for raids but eliminating any xp penalty in raids. The Level and the over level penalty.

Not asking for a drop down menu.

Although a drop-down window for ALL content would be ideal. 1-30 level range. Never hear complaints again about no content for whatever level.. Lots of dev time would be needed on this. Maybe just make all new content with the 1-30 drop-down menu. This should be easier than doing all of the content.

So a level 24 player would get full exp for running Tempest Spine? If you are saying to make the raid scale to the highest level player, that would be a horrible idea.

I limit my Shroud runs to 20, I seem to be in the minority. Most set the level range from 16-25. you would really screw the players AT LEVEL for the raid. You'd also have the problem of joining a pug and having a 25 step in, raising the difficulty of the raid to impossible for the lower level players.

To make all quests 1-30 would require a complete re-write of all the quests. And you think there are bugs now?

Rawrargh
09-11-2012, 04:42 PM
So a level 25 player would get full exp for running Tempest Spine? If you are saying to make the raid scale to the highest level player, that would be a horrible idea.

I limit my Shroud runs to 20, I seem to be in the minority. Most set the level range from 16-25. you would really screw the players AT LEVEL for the raid. You'd also have the problem of joining a pug and having a 25 step in, raising the difficulty of the raid to impossible for the lower level players.

To make all quests 1-30 would require a complete re-write of all the quests. And you think there are bugs now?

No, this is not what the OP is saying at all... He's saying that at-level people (16, 17, 18 and 19 for shroud) shouldn't be penalized on their xp by having a level 20+ character in the group when running raids. (right?)

I'm not sure this is the fix, but I did indeed notice the lack of xp from shroud while leveling my Tr'd barb from 18-20 resulting in mindless repetition of IQ quests, where I would have normally run 3-4 shrouds and gotten close to 100k xp, over 2 weeks while playing some of my other alts.

Fomori
09-11-2012, 04:46 PM
I think the system is fine as it is. If you want xp, set the level cap for those you invite. If you just want the completion then set it to 25 and increase the pool of players available.

Perhaps the x levels above quest are arbitrary but the higher levels character should contribute more to the quest and someone closer to the quest level.

What I also disagree with is making raids a special case. If your plan is good enough to be applied to raids it should be applied for ALL quests. We need to break the WoW/EQ "raid" mentality and move onto a new concept that isnt a decade old!

Karavek
09-11-2012, 05:01 PM
I personally like the idea of all content having a drop down selection like challenges thus allowing people to play the content they enjoy at whatever lvl range they happen to be in.

Unfortunatly allowing people to gain xp in raids while being carried by a few lvl 25s would be the grossest example of power lvling we would ever see as soon the master min maxxers who currently trivialize all content would be able to carry their friends alts while TRing and let them gain huge amounts of xp for being pikers.

Unfortuantly raids where not and never will be END GAME content, they are just forms of content you do while leveling. What needs to change is the drop rates in raids and the idea we should have to run any content well past the point we have any other reason to just for a piece of shiny loot made obscurely rare simply because it has some effect not generally seen on items.

For example why make the effect found on the torq so unique that non raider players are denied an item that has become seen as a must have by the vocal forum community. Raid players deserve nothing more then other kinds of players, the reward for them should be the content style they favor not superior items compared to the rest of the content.

I say all content for all lvls is the single best idea we could get added to this game. Making it so there is some form of sidekick system or negative lvl system so players can interact with a wider range of lvls on favored characters would also be a good step in the right direction.

Perhaps something like every lvl over the set cap for the party you would recieve a neg lvl you cant remove so say a lvl 25 working with a lvl 16 group would suffer 9 negative lvls. sure they would have lots of superior abilities and the like, but at least it would be enough of a handicap I think it would justify reducing the current power lvling penalty in place and allow more flexible party filling without hurting those after EPs.

Brennie
09-11-2012, 05:09 PM
I would be for expanding the range of levels that can get into a raid before overlevel penalties start applying (For both difference between highest and lowest players, and highest player and quest level). Something similar already exists for epic, so the code theoretically exists.

That said, i am vehemently against flat out removing powerleveling penalties. Having a level 25 character solo an elite tempest spine/chrono/dq/Von5+6 while the single-digit-level characters get full XP from the experience would not be a positive game adjustment.

Saravis
09-11-2012, 05:14 PM
/not signed
Xp penalties were put in place to prevent players from piggyback-ing capped toons. If you want XP, don't be afraid of failure and run it at level.

varusso
09-11-2012, 05:31 PM
The problem is not folks being "afraid" to run raids at-level. The problem is that a significant portion of players continue to run the raids even at cap, out of necessity, in order to get their completions (and/or in-quest shinies). When the level cap was 20, this wasnt a real issue for endgame (or near endgame) raids. Now that the level cap has been bumped up 5 levels, it changes everything. The need to keep running those raids at cap hasnt changed, but the massive XP penalty to anyone else who is in those raids with them has gone up ALOT.

If you sever the LFM at 20 (as pre-EDs), you cut out a significant portion of your available players as well, since players are now sitting at 25 to get their EDs rather than at 20 while they also farm the raids for completions and shinies. This makes the raid take MUCH longer to fill, and also causes the 21+ crowd to get screwed out of running that particular raid in that group. Sure, they can start their own 21+ group, but we all know its aggravating to end up with competing LFMs.

Add to this the fact the devs are still trying to balance level penalties properly in the epic levels.

The SIMPLE solution is to treat all 20+ toons as 20 for purposes of quest level range, XP penalties, etc. (No, you dont disable their EDs, or de-level them, or any of the other nonsense I have seen proposed in the past). No more funky math and charts to track and no more worries about a lvl 25 joining a group at the last minute and borking the XP for everyone. If a lvl 20 was fine before, then a lvl 25 would have no greater impact on the XP than the 20 would. Sure, it means that a lvl 25 might end up running with sub-20 toons (in fact it would virtually guarantee it) with no XP penalty. But the XP penalty system was not designed with lvl 25 toons in mind.

And no this is not a proposal to do away with XP penalties entirely -- it would ONLY affect the endgame crowd, treating all epic toons as lvl 20. Dont bother with "slippery slope" arguments either; those only apply to the people who are foolish enough to propose them in the first place.

Vestriel
09-11-2012, 07:49 PM
The problem with running raids at-level is that they require too many people to get a full party. Most players are not willing to wait around for 11 more people for an hour, and then disband the group because only 6 people showed up. In order to fill a raid group quickly enough that people don't start leaving out of boredom or time constraints, the leader must loosen his requirements as much as possible, and that means allowing capped characters to join.

Raids are currently designed to be run 20 or more times to get the loot you want, but this does not work if you are trying to do a raid at-level. You will out-level it before you get 5 runs in. This is a problem for any raid that is no longer at the level cap.

Removing xp penalties or powerlevel penalties is not the solution, those penalties exist for a good reason. Level 25 characters should not be carrying 18's through raids for free xp.

If you want to run a raid at-level for xp, something needs to change so that other players have a big enough incentive to join your group. To compensate for the extra time needed to set up a group and the possibility of a group dissolving halfway through the gathering phase, I believe that any raid more than 2 levels below the current level cap should give a greatly increased amount of base xp. This will give people enough incentive to actually challenge themselves and play the raid as it was intended, rather than being carried by lvl 25 characters for free loot.

Alternatively, it would be very beneficial to have an in-game method to schedule quests or raids that you plan to run some time in the future. This would greatly reduce the amount of idle time while waiting for a group to form, since people could plan ahead and show up at the same time to see a full or nearly full raid group. This is currently done by many guilds through guild chat or out-of-game communication channels, but un-guilded players or players in less serious guilds would benefit greatly by having access to a server-wide system of this sort.

Karavek
09-11-2012, 07:59 PM
The problem is not folks being "afraid" to run raids at-level. The problem is that a significant portion of players continue to run the raids even at cap, out of necessity, in order to get their completions (and/or in-quest shinies). When the level cap was 20, this wasnt a real issue for endgame (or near endgame) raids. Now that the level cap has been bumped up 5 levels, it changes everything. The need to keep running those raids at cap hasnt changed, but the massive XP penalty to anyone else who is in those raids with them has gone up ALOT.

If you sever the LFM at 20 (as pre-EDs), you cut out a significant portion of your available players as well, since players are now sitting at 25 to get their EDs rather than at 20 while they also farm the raids for completions and shinies. This makes the raid take MUCH longer to fill, and also causes the 21+ crowd to get screwed out of running that particular raid in that group. Sure, they can start their own 21+ group, but we all know its aggravating to end up with competing LFMs.

Add to this the fact the devs are still trying to balance level penalties properly in the epic levels.

The SIMPLE solution is to treat all 20+ toons as 20 for purposes of quest level range, XP penalties, etc. (No, you dont disable their EDs, or de-level them, or any of the other nonsense I have seen proposed in the past). No more funky math and charts to track and no more worries about a lvl 25 joining a group at the last minute and borking the XP for everyone. If a lvl 20 was fine before, then a lvl 25 would have no greater impact on the XP than the 20 would. Sure, it means that a lvl 25 might end up running with sub-20 toons (in fact it would virtually guarantee it) with no XP penalty. But the XP penalty system was not designed with lvl 25 toons in mind.

And no this is not a proposal to do away with XP penalties entirely -- it would ONLY affect the endgame crowd, treating all epic toons as lvl 20. Dont bother with "slippery slope" arguments either; those only apply to the people who are foolish enough to propose them in the first place.

lol the power gap between an old 20 and a new 25 with a capped ED and twists, not to mention the power on some of the 20+ named items is utterly trivializing the old raids and it should. No the answer is not to let lvl 21-25 count as 20 as that will indeed allow for extreme power lvling of the lvl 17+ crowed.

Its not nonsense to want an effective sidekick/exemplar system as has been used and quite successfully in other MMOs to help players work together no matter their actual lvl, and a loot reward system that makes it so no matter waht lvl you play at with whatever character useful rewards will be found.

No the way raid loot is dropped is far more a problem then a lack of players. No content should be designed to be run more often then you could possibly do while at lvl just to get gear seen as a must have by the community.

licho
09-11-2012, 08:09 PM
The problem is:
Before U15 each time i run soma mid-late game raids i got a bunch of nice xp. (just from Shroud, Reavers and VoD) i bet it was around 100k xp which is someting. And now its gone.

The idea of limiting lfm to just 15-20 is not so good, since that makes puging even harder (just in case it wasnt already cripped by bravery streak) and i dont want to penalize anyone just since he grind his 25, or force myself and others to wait longer.

So the possible solutions are:
- Count lv 21-25 for powerleveling purpose.
WHich may trivalize some content, but there is already pleanty of stuff trivalizing content and serving no other purpose, and this change at least will make pugging easier.
- Fix the xp in game, to be something which anyway comes to you, and you dont need count every bit of xp.
- Pretend thats all is ok, and do nothing. Release some new bugs to channel attencion elsewhere.

donfilibuster
09-11-2012, 09:29 PM
Indeed running shroud was in schedule for xp on the way to 20, and now it's only possible if you make a group for it.
Obviously the cap exist to not make it too easy. However, then there's the side issue of filling the groups.
Shroud have just become like DQ/RF/chrono that are not run at level.
(but at least those have or will have epic option)

varusso
09-12-2012, 09:35 AM
lol the power gap between an old 20 and a new 25 with a capped ED and twists, not to mention the power on some of the 20+ named items is utterly trivializing the old raids and it should. No the answer is not to let lvl 21-25 count as 20 as that will indeed allow for extreme power lvling of the lvl 17+ crowed.

Its not nonsense to want an effective sidekick/exemplar system as has been used and quite successfully in other MMOs to help players work together no matter their actual lvl, and a loot reward system that makes it so no matter waht lvl you play at with whatever character useful rewards will be found.

No the way raid loot is dropped is far more a problem then a lack of players. No content should be designed to be run more often then you could possibly do while at lvl just to get gear seen as a must have by the community.

I am aware of the fact that there is a huge power gap in the epic toons. Fact is, trying to "adjust" the characters' stats/EDs/etc you "downgrade" them would result in a whole slew of other problems/glitches/bugs, and we know it. Problems we dont need on top of the current ones. Frankly, a group running shroud even with pre-ED 20's stomped it already; the epic benefits are moot. Same goes with any other endgame or near endgame content except the newest additions, which are specifically designed with EDs in mind.

I have also suggested changes to the way raid loot should be handled (see the Widget System link in sig for a very basic overview), but they obviously do not intend to fix that any time soon.

So once again the SIMPLE solution is just to toss level penalties for 20+ toons. BTW, a TRed lvl 20 who gathered up all their EDs in a previous life has alot of ED choices they can stuff onto the toon without even leveling back up to 25.

Silverwren
09-12-2012, 12:19 PM
Lots of dev time would be needed on this.

There's why this will never be implemented. They've got plenty of other things to do / fix.

For my part, I think the system works fine as it is. No need to fix it..........

......except for maybe Chronoscope. No one ever runs that at level.

bibliomane
09-12-2012, 01:30 PM
/not signed. I run things on my 25 and on my at level toons--it does make a huge difference in big-red-easy-button when I bring my 25. No one should be getting shroud xp if mamma is healing normal...it is the equivilent of running misery's peak at level 8.

If you want to run it at level, put up a LFM. I've joined and put up at level shroud LFMS...they do fill. Shroud normal is a level 17 raid...I've had 16-18 hard-capped groups and we still filled and ran it. If you find this impossible for some reason and still want xp...choose to run something else.

Musouka
09-12-2012, 05:33 PM
/not signed

You don't like the groups you join, then stop joining them and create your own.

Miow
09-13-2012, 07:08 AM
The problem is not folks being "afraid" to run raids at-level. The problem is that a significant portion of players continue to run the raids even at cap, out of necessity, in order to get their completions (and/or in-quest shinies). When the level cap was 20, this wasnt a real issue for endgame (or near endgame) raids. Now that the level cap has been bumped up 5 levels, it changes everything. The need to keep running those raids at cap hasnt changed, but the massive XP penalty to anyone else who is in those raids with them has gone up ALOT.

If you sever the LFM at 20 (as pre-EDs), you cut out a significant portion of your available players as well, since players are now sitting at 25 to get their EDs rather than at 20 while they also farm the raids for completions and shinies. This makes the raid take MUCH longer to fill, and also causes the 21+ crowd to get screwed out of running that particular raid in that group. Sure, they can start their own 21+ group, but we all know its aggravating to end up with competing LFMs.

Add to this the fact the devs are still trying to balance level penalties properly in the epic levels.

The SIMPLE solution is to treat all 20+ toons as 20 for purposes of quest level range, XP penalties, etc. (No, you dont disable their EDs, or de-level them, or any of the other nonsense I have seen proposed in the past). No more funky math and charts to track and no more worries about a lvl 25 joining a group at the last minute and borking the XP for everyone. If a lvl 20 was fine before, then a lvl 25 would have no greater impact on the XP than the 20 would. Sure, it means that a lvl 25 might end up running with sub-20 toons (in fact it would virtually guarantee it) with no XP penalty. But the XP penalty system was not designed with lvl 25 toons in mind.

And no this is not a proposal to do away with XP penalties entirely -- it would ONLY affect the endgame crowd, treating all epic toons as lvl 20. Dont bother with "slippery slope" arguments either; those only apply to the people who are foolish enough to propose them in the first place.


Yeppers this all the way.

dterror
09-13-2012, 09:02 AM
The problem is not folks being "afraid" to run raids at-level. The problem is that a significant portion of players continue to run the raids even at cap, out of necessity, in order to get their completions (and/or in-quest shinies). When the level cap was 20, this wasnt a real issue for endgame (or near endgame) raids. Now that the level cap has been bumped up 5 levels, it changes everything. The need to keep running those raids at cap hasnt changed, but the massive XP penalty to anyone else who is in those raids with them has gone up ALOT.

If you sever the LFM at 20 (as pre-EDs), you cut out a significant portion of your available players as well, since players are now sitting at 25 to get their EDs rather than at 20 while they also farm the raids for completions and shinies. This makes the raid take MUCH longer to fill, and also causes the 21+ crowd to get screwed out of running that particular raid in that group. Sure, they can start their own 21+ group, but we all know its aggravating to end up with competing LFMs.

Add to this the fact the devs are still trying to balance level penalties properly in the epic levels.

The SIMPLE solution is to treat all 20+ toons as 20 for purposes of quest level range, XP penalties, etc. (No, you dont disable their EDs, or de-level them, or any of the other nonsense I have seen proposed in the past). No more funky math and charts to track and no more worries about a lvl 25 joining a group at the last minute and borking the XP for everyone. If a lvl 20 was fine before, then a lvl 25 would have no greater impact on the XP than the 20 would. Sure, it means that a lvl 25 might end up running with sub-20 toons (in fact it would virtually guarantee it) with no XP penalty. But the XP penalty system was not designed with lvl 25 toons in mind.

And no this is not a proposal to do away with XP penalties entirely -- it would ONLY affect the endgame crowd, treating all epic toons as lvl 20. Dont bother with "slippery slope" arguments either; those only apply to the people who are foolish enough to propose them in the first place.

One of the best suggestions for how to deal with it I've heard yet.

danotmano1998
09-13-2012, 09:16 AM
The SIMPLE solution is to treat all 20+ toons as 20 for purposes of quest level range, XP penalties, etc..

You mean like they told us they were going to do?

Yeah, that would be great.

varusso
09-13-2012, 11:22 AM
You mean like they told us they were going to do?

Yeah, that would be great.
Ive never seen a dev say that -- was it in the beta forums?
If they have made that declaration at some point, I would certainly like to see it followed-through. Sure, it would create a small issue with poweleveling toons up from 17~18, but it would also solve alot of other issues -- until they raise the level cap again, of course :rolleyes:

We actually went through a similar adjustment back in the day in Asheron's Call. The level cap at the time was 126, and there were "steps" along the way with level ranges for toons to group. Finally, the players got it through the devs' heads that the power gap between lvl 80 toons and lvl 126 toons was minimal, but the XP curve and level spread was enormous. The devs then allowed all 80+ toons to group together without penalty, and it worked just fine.

I think a similar method could be applied here with 20+ toons.

donfilibuster
09-13-2012, 11:43 PM
Ive never seen a dev say that -- was it in the beta forums?
If they have made that declaration at some point, I would certainly like to see it followed-through.
Think it was for the epic levels, to let 20s and 21s group with 24s and 25s.

That alone doesn't solve that raids are harder to fill for xp than before.
It'd take giving them epic difficulty and cease tuning the heroic difficulties to endgame players.

moops
09-14-2012, 12:41 AM
Something needs to be done. Even Shroud LFMs accepting all levels take forever to fill. And I think I just saw my first HOX LFM in a month, and its been there for 30 mins so far with only a couple people in it.

With +3 tomes for sale in the store, and better random loot dropping not just endgame but all around, the incentive for these raids is virtually none.

varusso
09-14-2012, 07:49 AM
Think it was for the epic levels, to let 20s and 21s group with 24s and 25s.

That alone doesn't solve that raids are harder to fill for xp than before.
It'd take giving them epic difficulty and cease tuning the heroic difficulties to endgame players.
If all 20+ toons were treated as 20, it would be the same as pre-EDs in terms of filling; if a lvl 20 toon was OK in the raid before, a lvl 21-25 would be fine as well. Giving them epic difficulties would give epic toons more options for XP runs, but for completions, they are going to continue to run them in heroic levels as before because they are easier (and they are JUST looking for completions) and there is a larger player pool because they can pull from heroic level toons to fill.

I would also like to see them separate heroic and epic repetition coutners (IE: when you run a heroic quest on epic, the two versions have separate counters, including first-time bonuses, BB, etc.). This would also help with the toons trying to run for XP post-epic.

AND I would like to see a raid-item system that allows you to accrue "points" (ala the Widget System in my sig) towards "buying" your epics, rather than the 20th completion system we have now. Running a raid on a higher dif (including the epic versions) would give more "points" to spend on your shinies of choice. This would provide extra incentive for players to run things more in tune with their levels -- which would also have the effect of dividing the epic/heroic crowd and possibly eliminate the need for 20+ merging, as the epic crowd would no longer be wiggling into sub-epic runs on a regular basis (assuming all raids were updated to include epic of course).

WOW used a similar system for purchasing "welfare epics" (PVP epics) back when I played. The PVP epic gear was different from normal raid epic gear, though, and was balanced more toward PVP than PVE. It gave people more options, and while it was still a grind, it was a targeted, measurable grind, rather than a random, luck-based grind. And you got to PICK the epic item you received, rather than a totally random drop. Personally, I prefer a carrot I can see and build toward at a measured pace rather than one that falls randomly out of the sky and may or may not be the one I wanted -- and more likely not.

EDIT: I finally got around to revising my original Widget looting system. For anyone interested, a link to the updated version is now in my sig.