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licho
09-09-2012, 06:04 AM
Weapon focus is one of the feats which in theory gives something, but more often than not you dont need that.
Often its PrE requirments with you take since must wishing you can take something useful instead.
So why not make it useful:

Like Reduce the number of focus feats to 3. (just weapon focus, specializacion and mastery)ack
With focus being avaiable to all, and specializacion and mastery being fighter perk.

And change it to:
With chosen weapon type you gain +1 to hit, +1(1h)/+2(2h) to dmg , and 5% fortification bypass.

And this stack up to 3 times.
You can take it multiplie times for various weapons.

This change will cheer all the AA and Warchanters who are forced to take useles ****.
As well as will reduce the feat tax from kensai.

dng242
09-10-2012, 05:45 PM
While the feat isn't overly useful your suggestion just adds to the arms race. A more modest +2 or +3 to hit would probably be better.

Of course this was my favorite "As well as will reduce the feat tax from kensai." When it comes to feats, fighters are the 1%. This "tax" isn't all that taxing on them.

licho
09-10-2012, 09:42 PM
While the feat isn't overly useful your suggestion just adds to the arms race. A more modest +2 or +3 to hit would probably be better.

Of course this was my favorite "As well as will reduce the feat tax from kensai." When it comes to feats, fighters are the 1%. This "tax" isn't all that taxing on them.

This +2/+3 to hit is per feat or total?
What is a use of +9 to hit (assuming 3 feats tree) alone on class with full BAB and str improvments?

Also my suggestion adds only +0 to hit, +2 dmg, +3 to tactics over what now offers focus line. Just in 3 feats insteed of 5.
This is not arms race, its balancing old stuff to new reality.
Otherwise we can argue that we shouldnt change Rangers or Paladins, since that will be just a arms race.

My suggestion is already modest, moreover gives more balanced split than some focues +3 to hit, or +3 to dmg (per feat).
Also notice, that khopesh proficency gives you +1 flad dmg, and .1 crit bonus over scimies. Which offers much bigger kick than what im suggesting. And every khopesh user defend his weapon for eternity, so no point to argue if its much.

Feat tax is always a tax, even if the class have a lot of feats. FIghters have indeed 11 feats, but imagine that beside that they have no skills, no class abilities, poor saves. Now, 5 of 11 is taken for underpowered lane. ANd we are left with just 6. Much less impressive. Moreover, even with this 6 feats there is not much to do, since there is no nice feats, since devs keep thinking that +1 to hit, and +5 to dmg in 2 different feats is ok and balanced. I bet that everyone will agree that feats should be less powerful than class abilities, but dont see the problem in situacion when this weaker feats are the only class ability.

Carkolda
09-10-2012, 09:44 PM
I do not approve of this.
First, if you look at canon, weapon focus is not meant to be that powerful.
Secondly, It's a level 1 feat. It's a building block. Changing it because you feel the damage output isn't up to snuff is not a good reason to change a core mechanic in the game.
Third, when you have melees hitting for 1300 damage on a crit, you don't need to change weapon focus.

So... /not signed.

licho
09-10-2012, 09:53 PM
I do not approve of this.
First, if you look at canon, weapon focus is not meant to be that powerful.
Secondly, It's a level 1 feat. It's a building block. Changing it because you feel the damage output isn't up to snuff is not a good reason to change a core mechanic in the game.
Third, when you have melees hitting for 1300 damage on a crit, you don't need to change weapon focus.

So... /not signed.

1. Who said that weapon focues is not meant to be powerful? You?

2. PA is level 1 feat. Cleave is. Khopesh prof is. Stun is.

3. PBS was changed, so was Cleave.

4. Higher crits comes from sources other than focus. If every ability was so weak as focus is, there would be no melee dps.

Your arguments are invalid.

Brennie
09-10-2012, 10:22 PM
Weapon focus needs to change. The fact that a feat, any feat, can actually mathematically have no effect on your character is just bad planning. That said, giving weapon focus a direct increase in damage not only changes the theme of feat, but also devalues some other abilities and effects.

I'd be happy with mini-precision; 5% bonus to hit, 5% fort bypass, or something to that effect. But +1 to hit is just laughable. It is in the category of Diehard - something that may actually make a difference once to twice through low level content while soloing normal but past level 10, you would never actually notice if the feat stopped working altogether.

Talias006
09-10-2012, 10:46 PM
Feat tax is always a tax, even if the class have a lot of feats. FIghters have indeed 11 feats

Let's just stop this process right here.
Fighters do not have just 11 Feats.
They have a total of 18, 19 if Human.

I see what you're trying to do in changing the prerequisites for Kensai to just the 3 Feats you mentioned.
I don't agree with it exactly, but see your point on it.

What I don't like about the 3 feats you've created is that it gives free tactical feat bonuses to everyone able to take them, which is one of the hallmarks of the Kensai Prestige.

You're persistent that Fighters have a Feat Tax because of one Prestige, which is really not the case.
You can build a Kensai 3 Fighter that benefits from:

3 Weapon Focus Feats
2 Weapon Specialization Feats
Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave
Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Whirlwind Attack
Two Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, Greater TWF and Over Sized TWF
Improved Critical and your choice of tactical Feat (Improved Sunder, Trip, Stunning Blow)


You can swap out the TWF Feats for THF and another Tactical Feat, or for the 1H and Shield style line and another Tactical Feat.
Or virtually any number of other possible combinations.

sephiroth1084
09-10-2012, 10:53 PM
The problem is that with the new combat system, a +1 bonus on attack rolls may end up not increasing your chance to hit at all, whereas before, if you weren't at a 95% success rate before, it represented a 5% increase.

Feats in 3.5 were always somewhat problematic, as they're supposed to represent significant parts of your character's power (or all of it, if you're a fighter), but can often be rather insignificant, and there's really no balance between the value of one and the next. Even a +1 before was pretty weak, especially when compared with the value of something like Power Attack.

I'd be in favor of having Weapon Focus add to combat maneuver DCs with affected weapons as well. This is basically what Pathfinder does--Combat Maneuver Bonus is affected by anything improving your to-hit also, so Weapon Focus adds to this. Still, that likely only helps about half the people that end up taking Weapon Focus. Making it +5% like Precision, figuring in after other calculations would be good, but the risk is that too many 5% bonuses may put us back where we were before, with people missing only on 1s in level-appropriate content, which the devs don't want, and which would make the new system rather pointless.



The idea of also adding that to Weapon Specialization makes some sense as well, though less of a necessity. Combining Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization into a single feat would be nice, but I'm not sure it's necessary either, for DDO. We don't have that many feats that fighters want, and it isn't doing anything for anybody else.

licho
09-11-2012, 12:05 AM
The idea of also adding that to Weapon Specialization makes some sense as well, though less of a necessity. Combining Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization into a single feat would be nice, but I'm not sure it's necessary either, for DDO. We don't have that many feats that fighters want, and it isn't doing anything for anybody else.

Imho this is a big problem.
There is a ilusion that fighters have 20/21 feats. But then:
- 2 of them are epic and everyone gets them
- 7/8 are racial so its not really a fighter perk.
- 5 of them we trade for +3/+4 to hit/dmg which is not a best deal.
- If you are dps/tactic focused combat experise will not help much.

So in the end its more like fighters get 6 class feats above other classes, and none of feat left is especially powerful.
And this 6 feats is all fighters have as class perk.

Instead of claiming that fighters have 18 feats, so lets give them a crappy one so they can just fill the slots, i would rather see the feats which gives something, and better it be worth what other classes got.

sephiroth1084
09-11-2012, 12:56 AM
Fighters get 6 bonus feats then (after WF, WS, GWF, GWS, SWF), which is pretty significant, especially when you consider how few feats of worth DDO has available. And you can't discount the total feats they have available. What was the norm for Kensei's before the last round of feat improvements? The 5 Weapon Focus/Specialization feats, TWF, ITWF, GTWF (or the THF chain), PA, Improved Critical, Stunning Blow, Improved Sunder, and 5 Toughness feats. You could pick up some others, but nothing was especially compelling if you were straight DPS. Now there's an argument to add Cleave and Great Cleave to that, and maybe Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack, though you'd have to drop something for Toughness, and few fighters bother with the Dodge chain unless they are also picking up Whirlwind.

What feats are fighters left to pick up after all of that? A second combat style? Archery is too feat intensive to bother, and there's no real benefit in swapping from THF to TWF or the reverse. Shield feats are worthwhile, but if you aren't also picking up other things like Combat Expertise, they aren't worth quite as much. That leaves stuff like Iron Will, which isn't terrible, but also isn't really worth a feat slot either.

If fighters gain another couple of feats, they end up with fewer real choices besides feat order in most cases. For a few, that may open up some additional real options, but not for many. If we get more worthwhile feats in the game that would make sense on a character with something like the above feat layout it may be worth addressing the issue, but not pressingly so.

I'd prefer to see Weapon Focus get buffed in some way. Maybe it adds +1, and a further +1 at BAB +10 and +20. GWF could add an additional +1 at BAB +16, and SWF could add another +1 at 20. This would solidify fighters as the class with the best to-hit. If these feats also come with a bonus to combat maneuver DCs, it would probably restore fighters to being the best at melee-based battlefield control, where I think they belong, but barbarians may still edge them out.

Worldcrafter
09-11-2012, 01:00 AM
If we're looking at it from the long view, where not everyone is instantly 20 and has all the right gear in all the right places, those 11 feats gives fighters a lot of early leaps. Unless you're a human, a barb couldn't get cleave right off the bat; they have to wait until level 3. A fighter, however, can just pop PA and grab cleave if they wanted to. By level 4, they can have Great Cleave, while a barb has to wait until 6, even if human. A fighter could even have Improved Sunder by that time as well, and still have a feat to spare for something else - weapon focus, toughness, something else?

I don't find it fair to "discredit" the feats from levels and race. Just because they're shared doesn't mean fighters don't benefit from them. If level feats don't count, then fighters get a whopping 11 feats compared to other classes' 0 feats! Except for wizards and their metamagic stuff, but we all know they cheat.

I think Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization don't need adjustment. They're the basics, the building blocks, and aren't too much of an investment to get. I could get behind the idea of renovating the Greater Focus/Specialization, and Superior; you are investing a lot more time and effort into them. Maybe something like:

Greater Weapon Focus
+1 Hit, bypass 5% dodge.

Greater Weapon Specialization
+2 Damage, +2 Tactical DC.

Superior Weapon Focus
+1 Hit, bypass 5% dodge, bypass 10% Fortification.

Carkolda
09-11-2012, 01:20 AM
Do you guys even hear yourselves (or read yourselves)? Did you guys ever play PNP? Because by the sounds of it, you haven't. I have been playing for the better part of 20 years.

Licho, this is directed at you.

First: +1 attack at low levels can be important +1 attack at level 20 is nearly meaningless. But you didn't have D&D players complaining how weapon focus needed an improvement. They recognized that if they wanted to improve their abilities, they took it one step at a time. That's what made fighters so powerful: They could stack a ton of +1's to get a large plus.

Second: Level 1 feats (i.e. those with no pre-requisite) aren't meant to be game-changing. Just because you can wield a Khopesh doesn't mean you're a badass. Power attack has a drawback (you lose attack bonus for increases in damage, and it also has a pre-req). Stun has a cooldown, and isn't always a guarantee (and also has a pre-req). Even if you have a DC 62 like my clonk, things can still roll a 20. WF just happens to give you a +1 flat with no penalty. Frequently, in PNP, people used WF to offset power attack so they could increase the amount of damage they dished out without worrying about hobbling their ability to hit stuff.

Or are you looking for abilities that make it even EASIER to curb-stomp kobolds? Increasing the abilities of a level 1 feat to be in-line with a level 6 or 8 feat only accelerates the power creep in this game.

Third: PBS and Cleave/Greater Cleave/WW were changed to accommodate the changes to how weapon damage was calculated. I also know that cleave/great-cleave/WW were changed to fit the MMO style, since you can't exactly move on to the next enemy if you fell the first one. Cleave in DDO works like WW in D&D. But as this is an MMO, they had to change it to work with the combat system.

As for the +x damage for PBS, I can't speak as to why they did that... most likely because archers in this game suck bawls and aren't really that viable until you reach the upper teens in levels. I'm not picking on players who use archers, I'm saying the way that damage is dished out in a live environment places archers at a disadvantage. In D&D, you'd be able to get an equal number of attacks per round as a fighter with a bow. In DDO, that's clearly not the case. So my guess is they bumped it up to help offset that handicap.

And my fourth point is in response to your less-than-stellar idea that weapon focus should bump damage. Weapon focus never was designed to increase raw damage, it was meant to improve your ability to hit things. From an RP standpoint, it showed your dedication to a particular weapon style, and you got better than the other weapon styles you had because you practiced it more.

Stop trying to reshape DDO and D&D canon because you feel fighters don't dish out enough damage. Your complaining about weak feats sounds like someone making excuses about why they can't do something instead of figuring out a solution to make the build work. WF isn't broken, don't try to fix it.

sephiroth1084
09-11-2012, 02:02 AM
Do you guys even hear yourselves (or read yourselves)? Did you guys ever play PNP? Because by the sounds of it, you haven't. I have been playing for the better part of 20 years.

Licho, this is directed at you.

First: +1 attack at low levels can be important +1 attack at level 20 is nearly meaningless. But you didn't have D&D players complaining how weapon focus needed an improvement. They recognized that if they wanted to improve their abilities, they took it one step at a time. That's what made fighters so powerful: They could stack a ton of +1's to get a large plus.
Um...have you ever played PNP or read the 3.5 WotC message boards regarding fighters and/or the Weapon Focus feat (and chain)?

There were dozens of threads (written by D&D players) complaining about how weak the fighter is in 3.5, and many cited the fact that the Weapon Specialization chain was basically the only exclusive feature of the fighter, and it sucks. Weapon Focus is not a good feat. It's not worthless at low levels, but it also isn't as valuable as many other feats are, either, and that was before taking into account the stat-inflation we have in DDO.

My gaming group and I had made several attempts at finding ways to make the fighter more attractive. One of my solutions was to have all fighter bonus feats that grant a numerical +X bonus gain an additional +1 for every 3 fighter bonus feats the character possessed (note, these are any feats that a fighter could take as a bonus, so their standard feats would contribute to this), which results in a maximum of all such feats granting a further +6 bonus. If you wanted to stack up on these, you would pick Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Dodge, etc... to end up with +7 attack, +7 damage, +7 Dodge bonus to AC against 1 enemy/round. I got rid of the Greater versions of some feats, since they no longer made much sense. And you know what? The fighter still wasn't all that attractive.

Part of the problem is that while everyone else is gaining (what should be) level-appropriate class abilities, fighters are generally continuing to select from a list of feats that don't generally scale well with level. Compare picking up Greater Weapon Focus at level 8 with a caster gaining Summon Monster IV. Yes, limitation of use was a factor in "balancing" these things, but it isn't enough, and in DDO is largely irrelevant.

By the same token, though, DDO has given the fighter quite a few buffs through enhancements, even while DDO has made fighter less interesting by including far too few feats.

1jazzz
09-11-2012, 02:11 AM
as an PrE abuser in PnP i see nothing wrong with the feats, fighter is and always will be the most generic class, but it's how you shape class. you need not go for kensai as a pure fighter, you negate all PrE and play purely tactical (sap, cleaves, stunning blows).

i have to back Carkolda in this as THERE'S NO CLASS LEVEL PENALTIES.

Talias006
09-11-2012, 03:47 AM
I think Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization don't need adjustment. They're the basics, the building blocks, and aren't too much of an investment to get. I could get behind the idea of renovating the Greater Focus/Specialization, and Superior; you are investing a lot more time and effort into them. Maybe something like:

Greater Weapon Focus
+1 Hit, bypass 5% dodge.

Greater Weapon Specialization
+2 Damage, +2 Tactical DC.

Superior Weapon Focus
+1 Hit, bypass 5% dodge, bypass 10% Fortification.

Now this is an adjustment that is not outlandish, nor overly powerful. It's headed in the right direction, but can still use a little tweaking.

Perhaps the To-Hit numbers could be bumped so that Greater gives +2 and Superior gives +3. That would be only a static +6 To Hit.
Change Greater Spec to +4 Damage and +1 Tactical DC and give the other +1 Tactical DC to Superior Focus.

Not sure if I understand the Dodge bypass, but do like the Fort bypass.
Although the numbers are a little on the strong side, IMO.
Halve them and it seems like it would be a real winner for both crowds.

Using your idea as basis:

Greater Weapon Focus
+2 To Hit
Ignore 2% of foe's dodge. (If Foe would have 5% Dodge, then vs the Fighter that Foe would only have 3% Dodge.)

Greater Weapon Specialization
+4 To Damage
+1 Tactical Feat DC.

Superior Weapon Focus
+3 To Hit
+1 Tactical Feat DC
Ignore 4% of foe's dodge (If Foe would have 5% Dodge, then vs the Fighter that Foe would only have 3% Dodge.)
Reduce foe's Fortification by 5% (stacks with all other forms of Fortification reduction)

Worldcrafter
09-11-2012, 03:50 AM
Been playing tabletop for over 20 years myself. And with 3rd and 3.5, my preferred characters are normally fighters or wizards. I never really saw fighters as weak or undesirable, and rather enjoyed all of the different things one could groom a fighter to become. As far as weapon focus went, it was a worthwhile investment. You got it, that was a +5% chance to hit, regardless of whatever your level was. The only time that wasn't good was when something had ridiculously high AC or ridiculously low.

Unfortunately, DDO is very ridiculous. People who have the knowledge and resources can use that ridiculousness to their advantage, quickly making that +1 bonus seem insignificant. Of course, this game isn't filled with people who know it inside and out. As I've mentioned before, there are people who are less-then-optimized, who do benefit from that simple +1.

As Sephiroth points out, however, many of the feats are a straightforward bonus or ability that doesn't change in time, while most class abilities grow stronger. Following that, none of them have more advanced options at this time; you follow a basic chain up to a certain point of advancement, and then all you can really do is start from another basic point, up another chain. Or take toughness. Lots of toughness.

While I personally see no reason to change the feats, I didn't want to contribute to this thread as a purely negative criticism. That's why I suggested keeping the initial feats (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization) as they are, but possibly giving a bump to those later in the line.

Edit:
Curse you for the posting of the posts while I was working on a post! Now I have to go back and edit!

Edit Edit:
My initial proposal was purely a blind stab in the dark with the numbers; I figured people could advocate if they thought it was too strong/too weak as they desired.

As far as Dodge Bypass, I'm not certain if enemies follow the same AC/Dodge/PRR that we do or not. From your proposed idea, you got my concept spot on. And I like your suggested bonuses better then my initial ones.

azrael4h
09-11-2012, 04:56 AM
Do you guys even hear yourselves (or read yourselves)? Did you guys ever play PNP? Because by the sounds of it, you haven't. I have been playing for the better part of 20 years.

Do you hear yourself? Have you even played DDO? DDO has little to do with PnP of any edition. It no longer even uses the D20 system to to-hit rolls. It uses a percentage-based system.

And in DDO, +1 to hit is meaningless. I've got a level 9 Rogue who uses two Rapiers (so -4/-4 to hit) without a problem because of the current combat system, in elite at-level content. Others will tell you that +4 Cannith-crafted to-hit goggles are now worthless. My Bard uses two Khopeshes, and has no troubles in EE content hitting. No weapon focuses needed, no to-hit gear anymore.

It's not really optimization. My Rogue has points spread into DEX, CON, INT, and STR. Bard just swaps CHA for INT. Otherwise both are similar in stat layout. Again, unless you completely dump STR and fight TWF without the feat to reduce the penalties, any full BaB class should have no problems hitting in any content save maybe EE. And then not all mobs in EE.

Unless you are a Wizard or Sorc, Weapon Focus adds precisely nothing to your melee capability. This is why it's a feat tax, and this is why it needs to be changed. Because the only classes who can find value in +1 to-hit have no business in melee past the very lowest levels anyway, and even there can probably make due without it now due to all the changes.

Furthermore, until the Tome of Battle, Fighters in PnP were considered to be excessively weak in 3.5e.



First: +1 attack at low levels can be important +1 attack at level 20 is nearly meaningless. But you didn't have D&D players complaining how weapon focus needed an improvement. They recognized that if they wanted to improve their abilities, they took it one step at a time. That's what made fighters so powerful: They could stack a ton of +1's to get a large plus.

+1 attack at level 1 is not important unless you are a 6 STR Wizard trying to melee with a great axe. Fighters, unless you manage to horribly gimp them beyond recognition, will have no trouble hitting from levels 1-25 in anything short of epic elites, provided they have level-appropriate gear. This is not PnP, and hasn't been in a long time. Post U14 DDO has even less in common with PnP than before. And the first thing I learned when I came in (around U3 or 4) was that all my knowledge of 3.5e and PnP experience was worth precisely nothing.


Or are you looking for abilities that make it even EASIER to curb-stomp kobolds? Increasing the abilities of a level 1 feat to be in-line with a level 6 or 8 feat only accelerates the power creep in this game.

Have you even played beyond Korthos? Or any MMOs? Power creep is part of the genre. Or are you ignoring the EDs that make 4000 point crits possible?

Furthermore, there are very few feats that are restricted by level. Most are only restricted due to pre-reqs, but the vast majority of feats can be taken at level 1, particularly on a Fighter or other full BaB class. And on a Fighter, Precision's 25% fort bypass adds vastly more than Weapon Focus and Specialization lines combined. PA adds more raw damage, especially on a THF, than specialization as well, and under the new combat changes, on a full BaB class has almost no noticeable difference on non-gimps. Khopesh adds more still. TWF or THF feats add far more as well. Pally active past life adds a +3/+3 clicky, Ranger +5 AC, Cleric a quick, free heal, I could go on and on.

It's more like a level 1 feat that does the same thing as if you were able to take your level and not select any feat whatsoever.


Third: PBS and Cleave/Greater Cleave/WW were changed to accommodate the changes to how weapon damage was calculated. I also know that cleave/great-cleave/WW were changed to fit the MMO style, since you can't exactly move on to the next enemy if you fell the first one. Cleave in DDO works like WW in D&D. But as this is an MMO, they had to change it to work with the combat system.

Cleave/G Cleave have had more than that changed. They had shorter cooldowns to make them more spammable, increased damage to make them worth spamming, and faster animations to not be a detriment to dps. All of which added to the thing you hate; 'Power Creep'. All which had to be changed because this is an MMO, and not remotely related to PnP. Cleave and Great Cleave also had extra damage die tacked on, like PBS.



Stop trying to reshape DDO and D&D canon because you feel fighters don't dish out enough damage. Your complaining about weak feats sounds like someone making excuses about why they can't do something instead of figuring out a solution to make the build work. WF isn't broken, don't try to fix it.

There is no "D&D canon" here for him to change. DDO has nothing to do with D&D other than name and a setting. It doesn't use the same underlying combat system, at all. There is no live DM balancing things and ad-hoccing every encounter to suit the party build. No one is fudging rolls for you, and no one is making sure you actually get the nice named loot the module has. You run quests hundreds of times to get the items you want! In PnP, it's one and done. You don't have virtually limitless customization like in 3.5e, nor do you have 1 class that is exactly the same as all other classes just with different names like in 4e. You don't level a character over months or even years unless you are playing very little or very slowly, and you don't get xp or anything for thinking up clever solutions to problems presented in the game that wasn't thought of by the designer. In fact, you're considered an exploiter, and can be banned for it.

You're not the only 20+ year PnP veteran around here, and there are even those who have been playing D&D since 1974 here. Get off the high horse, and quit thinking that DDO is the same as any edition of D&D, because it is not. I am about a foot right now from my original AD&D books, not 2E. And my 2E books. And my 3/3.5e books. And my Pathfinder books. And even the 3 core 4e books that I mistakenly pre-ordered blindly and a 4e PHB2 someone else bought me.

DDO is not pen and paper, has not been for a long time, and as time goes on, will grow further and further away from it. Stop thinking it is, stop wishing it is, because it will never be. Your best hope for that is Neverwinter, and that will be 4E based, and also as far away from PnP and D&D as can be. More importantly, stop judging attempts to improve a worthless feat based on the false assumption that DDO is 3.5E D&D.

The reason Weapon Focus needs a buff is the same reason Point Blank Shot, Precision, Cleave, Great Cleave, and Whirlwind and others needed changing. Every feat should have a comparable value to a build, as they all have comparable cost. Those feats has no value whatsoever to any build, and were so changed. They were taken for pre-reqs and that was it. One feat slot is equal to 1 feat slot, and they should be all equally viable and equally useful.

In the current DDO world, Weapon Focus requires a melee character to be incredibly gimped to have any value. Fighters will struggle to suck so badly that at even level 1 it would have any effect whatsoever. It does not add +1 to hit. It does not add 5% to hit. It adds a feat slot that could have been taken by something else more useful. Like Improved Fortification for Warforged. That's how useless it is.

On topic, I would imagine that only Mobs that have specific class levels that get Dodge % will have any, since they don't actually use gear. So I think a small Fort bypass would actually be better, since that's a relatively small number of mobs, and where you really want the help is on boss fights, where they may have fortification. Maybe 5%. Then again, we've got 25% from Precision now, plus stacking Imp Destruction and Imp Sunder, so it may get to be too much fort bypass in the game now.

licho
09-11-2012, 08:01 AM
Greater Weapon Focus
+1 Hit, bypass 5% dodge.

Greater Weapon Specialization
+2 Damage, +2 Tactical DC.

Superior Weapon Focus
+1 Hit, bypass 5% dodge, bypass 10% Fortification.

This is ok. I dont stick to my setup. Even more if what above is backup with some Weapon Focus bump (like scaling with levels for extra + to hit)
Not sure if many mobs have dodge now, but maybe havent paying attencion, and even if not mobs definetly should have sometimes dodge. (Kobold Shamans inherit 50% ;-) )

Note: in theory all Rogue/Barbarian (like orcs) should have some small dodge. But im not sure if mobs really have PC leevels.

azrael4h
09-11-2012, 08:32 AM
This is ok. I dont stick to my setup. Even more if what above is backup with some Weapon Focus bump (like scaling with levels for extra + to hit)
Not sure if many mobs have dodge now, but maybe havent paying attencion, and even if not mobs definetly should have sometimes dodge. (Kobold Shamans inherit 50% ;-) )

Note: in theory all Rogue/Barbarian (like orcs) should have some small dodge. But im not sure if mobs really have PC leevels.

Well, I do know that Rogue-type mobs have evasion/Imp Evasion as well as some fort bypass ability so they land the SA damage more often. But I cannot, for the life of me, recall seeing a 'dodge' appear, on any mob, with any character, at any level, since the update. So it's possible, though hard to tell, that their abilities are not class levels, but instead granted through templates or hand-tweaking, and the devs have not gone through and made sure anything actually has dodge that might otherwise have it.

On the other hand, I believe Shadowdancer ED has a Dodge bypass on one of the tiers, so I may just be lucky or something may just be bugged. Hard to tell, because I honestly have not really paid any attention to it.

Carkolda
09-11-2012, 08:35 AM
I guess I am struggling with the concept that I shouldn't be comparing this game to D&D, even though it has "Dungeons & Dragons" at the top of the screen. That's effectively what you're saying; "It's not D&D, so stop calling it D&D, and stop comparing it to D&D." Then why is it named Dungeons & Dragons? If you don't think it should be following D&D rules, then it shouldn't be named D&D. It's that simple.

What the changes you guys are asking for is effectively drifting away from D&D and more towards WoW or whatever other non-D&D system game out there. Feats are unique to D&D, and changing them to boost your power curve because you don't think they have enough value is a poor reason to change it.

Next you're going to say that Dodge doesn't add enough dodge. Or Manyshot doesn't fire enough arrows per volley. Or maybe even that power attack doesn't add enough damage (after all, it's only +5!). Or toughness only 1 hp per level + 3 at level 1. But yet you see people out there with over 1200 hp. People dishing out over 1500 damage on a swing.

You also aren't seeing it for the big picture. You guys are saying +1 isn't enough for a feat. But spell focus is only +1 to DC's. Greater Spell Focus is only another +1. Spell Pen is only +2. But you don't hear about how arcanes or divines are complaining about Spell Focus and its "only" +1. SF is as close to WF as you can get. So why do you feel the need to improve WF, and yet SF is just fine how it is? +1 by itself my be insignificant, but when added together, they combine to make a powerful build.

kaobang
09-11-2012, 08:36 AM
Due to the combat revamp, weapon focus became useless.

It is required for other feats / prestige class so it should be modified to be useful again imo.

Systern
09-11-2012, 11:40 AM
I guess I am struggling with the concept that I shouldn't be comparing this game to D&D, even though it has "Dungeons & Dragons" at the top of the screen. That's effectively what you're saying; "It's not D&D, so stop calling it D&D, and stop comparing it to D&D." Then why is it named Dungeons & Dragons? If you don't think it should be following D&D rules, then it shouldn't be named D&D. It's that simple.

What the changes you guys are asking for is effectively drifting away from D&D and more towards WoW or whatever other non-D&D system game out there. Feats are unique to D&D, and changing them to boost your power curve because you don't think they have enough value is a poor reason to change it.

Next you're going to say that Dodge doesn't add enough dodge. Or Manyshot doesn't fire enough arrows per volley. Or maybe even that power attack doesn't add enough damage (after all, it's only +5!). Or toughness only 1 hp per level + 3 at level 1. But yet you see people out there with over 1200 hp. People dishing out over 1500 damage on a swing.

You also aren't seeing it for the big picture. You guys are saying +1 isn't enough for a feat. But spell focus is only +1 to DC's. Greater Spell Focus is only another +1. Spell Pen is only +2. But you don't hear about how arcanes or divines are complaining about Spell Focus and its "only" +1. SF is as close to WF as you can get. So why do you feel the need to improve WF, and yet SF is just fine how it is? +1 by itself my be insignificant, but when added together, they combine to make a powerful build.

You may be interested in reading Eladrin's thread about the changes to AC and To-Hit with Update 14 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=376703).

Basically, after all the number crunching, theorycrafting, nerdrage, and evaluation, Weapon Focus's +1 isn't a +1. It's a +.2. You're spending one of your few, precious feat slots for a +.2 to-hit. Spell Foci do add +1, not +1/5th, thus are seen as more valuable.

The realities of MMO's mechanics mean that the rules of pen and paper, enforced by a rational, comprehending human being DM; aren't easy to codify. PnP has decreasing to-hit in a round against static AC. DDO has ascending to-hit against static AC. We do see 'twitchers' and the DPS-obsessed that swing-swing-step, swing-swing-step just to avoid slower combat animations. The way that it works in PnP is fundamentally different than how it's coded online.

And despite nostalgia thinking that it should work this way; this is what it actually Is.

(And the tangent of this thread that it's not that impactful to feat-rich fighters, ignores that it absolutely sucks for feat-starved Warchanter Bards)

Dandonk
09-11-2012, 11:48 AM
I guess I am struggling with the concept that I shouldn't be comparing this game to D&D, even though it has "Dungeons & Dragons" at the top of the screen. That's effectively what you're saying; "It's not D&D, so stop calling it D&D, and stop comparing it to D&D." Then why is it named Dungeons & Dragons? If you don't think it should be following D&D rules, then it shouldn't be named D&D. It's that simple.

Too late. DDO once bore resemblance to D&D. That's all gone. We now have D&D-themed-generic-MMO, aka DDO.


What the changes you guys are asking for is effectively drifting away from D&D and more towards WoW or whatever other non-D&D system game out there. Feats are unique to D&D, and changing them to boost your power curve because you don't think they have enough value is a poor reason to change it.

Why have feats in the game that are pointless? What value to the game does Skill Focus: Swim add?


Next you're going to say that Dodge doesn't add enough dodge. Or Manyshot doesn't fire enough arrows per volley. Or maybe even that power attack doesn't add enough damage (after all, it's only +5!). Or toughness only 1 hp per level + 3 at level 1. But yet you see people out there with over 1200 hp. People dishing out over 1500 damage on a swing.

Dodge, attacks in many shot, HP, and damage per hit do not suffer from the same amount of diminishing returns that to hit (and AC) does.


You also aren't seeing it for the big picture. You guys are saying +1 isn't enough for a feat. But spell focus is only +1 to DC's. Greater Spell Focus is only another +1. Spell Pen is only +2. But you don't hear about how arcanes or divines are complaining about Spell Focus and its "only" +1. SF is as close to WF as you can get. So why do you feel the need to improve WF, and yet SF is just fine how it is? +1 by itself my be insignificant, but when added together, they combine to make a powerful build.

Spell DCs also do not suffer from diminishing returns. +1 to hit is nearly pointless, while +1 DC (still) has value.

Never fear, I'm sure they'll remove the last vestiges of the "obsolete" d20 system soon enough. They've been removing them at a far pace so far, so I don't see them stopping now.

sephiroth1084
09-11-2012, 12:21 PM
(And the tangent of this thread that it's not that impactful to feat-rich fighters, ignores that it absolutely sucks for feat-starved Warchanter Bards) And Arcane Archers, and anyone else that requires, or will require, Weapon Focus as a prerequisite, or who mistakenly thinks the +1 will be of some real value to them, which is why I feel that even adding +1 to combat tactics DCs doesn't quite address the issue, since it makes fighters better, but does little for everyone else.

A dodge bypass looks okay, but I don't think any enemies even have dodge chances at present, and a Fort bypass, even 5%, feels like too big a bump in power, though it may not be. Changing the feat to +5% to-hit after calculations results in fighters never missing anything, since they would be at +20% from proficiency, +5% from Weapon Focus, +5% from Greater Weapon Focus, and +5% from Superior Weapon Focus, giving them a +35% chance to-hit after everything else, and there are almost no monsters in the game that a fighter (particularly a Kensei) will be missing more than 60% of the time.

The feat could be increased to +2 or +3 to-hit, which makes it more likely to actually result in your to-hit value turning over to another 5%.

Adding damage onto it would be useful for everyone, but then begs the question what Weapon Specialization is for. Now, what could be done, would be to make WF grant +1 attack/+1 damage, and add the tactics DC boost to the Specialization chain, which is only for fighters anyway.

Gizeh
09-11-2012, 12:58 PM
How about making Weapon Focus (and its advanced versions) a feat that can be toggled to either add +1 to hit or +1/+2 damage (one-handed weapons and two-handed weapons respectively). This would make the feats useful at higher levels.

This would even be a bit closer to pnp D&D, where Power Attack isn't limited to +5/+10 damage at -5 to hit, but rather to up to +x/+2x to damage at -x to hit, with x being the character's base attack bonus. I know that Weapon Focus is not the same as Power Attack, but I doubt there are any DDO characters who have the former but not the latter.

Loromir
09-11-2012, 01:20 PM
While the feat isn't overly useful your suggestion just adds to the arms race. A more modest +2 or +3 to hit would probably be better.

Of course this was my favorite "As well as will reduce the feat tax from kensai." When it comes to feats, fighters are the 1%. This "tax" isn't all that taxing on them.

You do know that the top 1% pays 50% of all taxes....Just sayin :D

licho
09-11-2012, 02:35 PM
How about making Weapon Focus (and its advanced versions) a feat that can be toggled to either add +1 to hit or +1/+2 damage (one-handed weapons and two-handed weapons respectively). This would make the feats useful at higher levels.


This is a lot of effort for small increase.
The base +1 tohit, +1 to dmg, +1 CTC is not so impressive (at least not as PA, or IC, or Khopeshes) so making it over complicated to use and code may be overkill.



Adding damage onto it would be useful for everyone, but then begs the question what Weapon Specialization is for. Now, what could be done, would be to make WF grant +1 attack/+1 damage, and add the tactics DC boost to the Specialization chain, which is only for fighters anyway.

The way i adressed is to reduce focus and specializacion lane to just 3 feats.
Each giving +1 tohit, +1 todmg, +1 to CTC. 2h weapons gain double dmg from it.
There is now only 3 feats (so Kensai have easier time to meet preq)

This way:
- Anybody who is forced to pick Focus got something useful even if its only +1 dmg bump.
- Kensai have 2 more feats more to toy with.
- Fighters overall have +2 to CTC which plays for their strenght.

I suppose that stuff like Dodge bypass, or fortification reduction maybe adressed by some other feats and enhancements.

Or... this totally new aproach much more holistic:

Weapon Focus is changed to +1 tohit, +1todmg, 5% fort bypass.
This way everyone who can take this, will benefit from this.

Imp Weapon Focus, Superior, and both Specializacion are no longer feats, they are now FIghter class perks which are obtained at odd levels. At some levels fighter gets additional bonuses to each group he has focus in (maybe several). And there we go:
lv5 +2 to dmg
lv 7 +1 tohit
lv 9 5% dodge bypass
lv 11 5% fort pen
lv 13 +2 to dmg
lv 15 +1 tohit
lv 17 5% dodge ignore.
lv 19 5% fort pen
lv 20 +2 todmg, +1 CTC

Kensai requires now: Focus, IC, PC and one of CE/PA/Precision.

As for fighters' 21 feats:
- if focus line would be granted i totally dont mind spending them on not cookiecutter feats which are situacional at best. Like Iron Will or DragonMarks.
- there is always a way to add some more feats like:

Dash - increase the MS by 10%
Blindfight - reroll concelment rolls
Tactical Mastery (req: imp Trip, imp Sunder, Stun) - adds +1 to CTC to all your tactics.
Sunder weapon - debuff enemies AA.

Buck3tH3ad69
09-11-2012, 03:19 PM
comparing +1 to hit and +1 to spell dcs or +2 to spell penetration is like comparing apples an mongooses, it doesnt make sense, +1 to hit, while semi-useful at low levels is completely useless to a melee at higher levels, where as spell pen and spell dcs are ALWAYS useful and mean much more to any arcane because without them your spells ACTUALLY FAIL, comparing a melee to a caster is just silly anyways, i agree the feat needs to be changed to something useful, but still something that should be available to a level one character, i think most of the suggestions so far are a bit much for a level one feat, changing it to a 5% bonus to hit seems ok, but tbh, missing your target really isnt a problem for any well built melee unless the target is blurred or displaced (easily bypassed with a true sight item), so i think a reasonable amount of fortification bypass (around the 5% area) would be a decent upgrade, or maybe a generic +1/+2 dmg increase (one hand/two hand) would be an acceptable use for a feat slot, another direction i saw mentioned was the tactical feat boost when using that type of weapon, so a +1 stacking bonus to trip/stun/sunder etc. i just dont think all of these should be given at once for one lvl 1 feat, thats just too much, but i wholeheartedly agree that it is a very useless feat as is and needs changing