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View Full Version : Sweeping bugs under the carpet..



Gimpinator
09-04-2012, 03:31 PM
The Legendary Dreadnought's Momentum Swing now property states that it requires a weapon in order to be used.

I'm not sure when it became acceptable to simply change the description rather than fix the problem. Why couldn't you create or use an existing animation? Hell, if you're willing to do away with the unique Great Cleave animation, why don't you just use the plain Cleave animation for Momentum Swing as well? Help me understand why you'd prefer the lazy route here..

If you even consider claiming this ability was never meant to work with handwraps, you'll never see another dollar from me again!

Enoach
09-04-2012, 03:41 PM
Wow, not leaving a lot of room for error here are we...

I too am curious as to why the weapon requirement is now in the description, but am braced for the possibility that it was in fact intended for weapons and not unarmed combat, and this change is meant to clarify it. Of course not being on the Development Team or Design Team we customers can only speculate on if it was intended or if it was decided after the fact that it shouldn't work.

Also sorry you feel you need to take such a firm stand on this issue. I do hope we get to hear the reason for the textual change.

Vordax
09-04-2012, 03:50 PM
If you even consider claiming this ability was never meant to work with handwraps, you'll never see another dollar from me again!

So if they said Monks are OP and had to be nerfed you would continue to spend money?

Gimpinator
09-04-2012, 05:11 PM
So if they said Monks are OP and had to be nerfed you would continue to spend money?

You either accidentally posted in the wrong thread or failed 3rd grade reading. In either event, the issue here isn't the effectiveness of a class relative to another. In fact, Monk wasn't mentioned at all before your post.

There are two problems here. The bigger issue is that Turbine finds it acceptable to completely do away with Momentum Swing rather than fixing it, in an attempt to subtly sweep the issue under an already dirty rug. Are they allowed to do that? Absolutely! It's their game after all. Should we, the paying customers, feel suspicious by this behavior and maybe a little insulted? Well yes, any customer passionate about a product they're heavily invested in should feel this way, that is, unless they were dropped as a child or perhaps fell from a roof and suffered any sort of long term brain damage.

Issue number two: The company's biggest selling point is being hindered! For those not following, I'm referring to character customization. As far as the Legendary Dreadnought tree is concerned, and this of my opinion, two huge advancements have been completely eradicated. This is of course both Momentum Swing and Pulverizer.

But "Waaa, UR MUNK WAS 2 POWERFULL!" you say, Mr. Vordax? Well, I'll agree that MY Monk is quite effective, although that tends to happen when you've invested as much time into a character as I have. This, however, isn't the issue. MY personal character will be just fine; Unhindered. This isn't necessarily an issue that drastically effects MY characters in a negative way. In fact, I would argue that that this specific issue would be less dramatic if it merely affected a single class only. Assuming you're playing the same game that I am, you already know where I'm going with this: HANDWRAPS. Yep, that's right. I know you skimmed the first post in this thread, so I'll mention it once more: HANDWRAPS. They're not just for monks, Mr. Vordax. In fact, lots of classes including Clerics and Druids use them without being heavily invested in (apparently) the overpowered monk class.

The issue is that rather than fixing a problem with a specific set of non-weapons, the Development Team decided to subtly word the issue and attempt to slide it under the carpet. This doesn't sit well with some of us, Mr. Vordax.

Oh, and to answer your inane question: Yes, I'd still spend money if I was still satisfied with the product.

AZgreentea
09-04-2012, 05:28 PM
Momentum Swing is supposed to be a Epic version of Cleave (as indicated by the pre req), but Cleave cant be used with Unarmed, can it? I'm asking, I really dont know. I dont normally play a front line Melee.

thegreatneil
09-04-2012, 05:42 PM
Momentum Swing is supposed to be a Epic version of Cleave (as indicated by the pre req), but Cleave cant be used with Unarmed, can it? I'm asking, I really dont know. I dont normally play a front line Melee.


yes you can cleave unarmed. On a monk it does a chuck norris roundhouse kick animation, and on a bear (druid) the bear does a leaping stomp if moving, or a double front paw stomp if not moving.
This makes me wonder, so you can't use Momentum swing on a wolf or bear either then?

Kielbasa
09-04-2012, 06:46 PM
Cleave is a prerequisite for shintao monks so its logical that some monks may have cleave. Cleave is a prerequisite for momentum swing yet it does not work with handwraps???

This just seems like a clear case of some higher up changing the priorities of development to another issue they feel is more important. It seems that more and more pigeonholing is happening with every update and patch rather than allowing players to have multiple viable destinies for their characters. I sure hope the development time shifted away from this will be spent on making the heroic enhancement pass awesome.

Khatzhas
09-04-2012, 07:00 PM
So: I am a sufferer of long term brain damage? Good to know.

Eladrin
09-05-2012, 09:50 AM
Despite the threats, I won't lie to you - the Legendary Dreadnought has always been thematically intended as an epic destiny used with physical weapons.

Volcano's Edge, Lightning Mace, and Anvil of Thunder explicitly mentioned the weapon list. Pulverizer was clarified with Update 15 to mention that handwraps did not count as a bludgeoning weapon for it.

Several other abilities in the tree were set up to work with weapons, but didn't make it explicit. (Sundering Swings and Momentum Swing.)

Cyr
09-05-2012, 10:08 AM
Despite the threats, I won't lie to you - the Legendary Dreadnought has always been thematically intended as an epic destiny used with physical weapons.

Volcano's Edge, Lightning Mace, and Anvil of Thunder explicitly mentioned the weapon list. Pulverizer was clarified with Update 15 to mention that handwraps did not count as a bludgeoning weapon for it.

Several other abilities in the tree were set up to work with weapons, but didn't make it explicit. (Sundering Swings and Momentum Swing.)

I really do not get the epic destiny design.

You have all these different destinies to appeal to different build types, but to actually improve your toon you have to use all these destinies with bizzare limitations and pigeon holed abilities.

Missing_Minds
09-05-2012, 10:21 AM
Wow, not leaving a lot of room for error here are we...

I too am curious as to why the weapon requirement is now in the description, but am braced for the possibility that it was in fact intended for weapons and not unarmed combat, and this change is meant to clarify it. Of course not being on the Development Team or Design Team we customers can only speculate on if it was intended or if it was decided after the fact that it shouldn't work.

Also sorry you feel you need to take such a firm stand on this issue. I do hope we get to hear the reason for the textual change.

Quite honestly, I'm tempted to join him on that stance. Why? This is NOT the first time they have decided that a bug is working as intended. No, this is the current trend. Do not fix the issue, you change the description to fit the current action.

Enoach
09-05-2012, 10:51 AM
Despite the threats, I won't lie to you - the Legendary Dreadnought has always been thematically intended as an epic destiny used with physical weapons.

Volcano's Edge, Lightning Mace, and Anvil of Thunder explicitly mentioned the weapon list. Pulverizer was clarified with Update 15 to mention that handwraps did not count as a bludgeoning weapon for it.

Several other abilities in the tree were set up to work with weapons, but didn't make it explicit. (Sundering Swings and Momentum Swing.)

So this appears to be a Clarification of the textual description, to help better understand why features are not working with unarmed combat. Of course that means two classes that have unarmed combat as part of their abilities - Monk and Druid, are excluded from the benefit.

Thank you Eladrin for being upfront.

sephiroth1084
09-05-2012, 12:13 PM
Despite the threats, I won't lie to you - the Legendary Dreadnought has always been thematically intended as an epic destiny used with physical weapons.

Volcano's Edge, Lightning Mace, and Anvil of Thunder explicitly mentioned the weapon list. Pulverizer was clarified with Update 15 to mention that handwraps did not count as a bludgeoning weapon for it.

Several other abilities in the tree were set up to work with weapons, but didn't make it explicit. (Sundering Swings and Momentum Swing.)
We understand that. The question is WHY? There's no reason for it that I (we) can see, and all that does is make the destiny grind even more intolerable. As it stands, we have to spend about 90% of our time at endgame in destinies we don't want, and that hardly do anything for us, if we want to "complete" our characters.

With so little loot of interest available, the joke that is Epic Hard, and the lack of incentive to run the brutality that is Epic Elite, there's hardly a reason to play a character that has capped their destiny of choice and acquired one or two low-tier twists if you can't be bothered to grind the heck out of the less enjoyable epic destinies. Taking tools away from more destinies does nothing to improved things.


On a slight tangent to the above, it has been proposed elsewhere to change the Epic Destiny system to allow one to remain in the destiny of their choice, but select a different destiny to gain 50% of the XP earned while playing in one's primary destiny. This would allow players to enjoy playing their characters more, while still working on improving them, albeit at a much slower rate. This would coexist with the current system to give players a choice of how they wish to level their destinies.

I can say that I've all but stopped playing my rogue, paladin and wizard, because I want twists, but am not enjoying most of the other destinies. Yes, some of the other destinies have been fun to level through, but I'm not at all looking forward to running caster destinies on a melee, or melee destinies on a caster, in trying to acquire fate points or twist abilities in other spheres.

slimkj
09-05-2012, 12:30 PM
Despite the threats, I won't lie to you - the Legendary Dreadnought has always been thematically intended as an epic destiny used with physical weapons.

Volcano's Edge, Lightning Mace, and Anvil of Thunder explicitly mentioned the weapon list. Pulverizer was clarified with Update 15 to mention that handwraps did not count as a bludgeoning weapon for it.

Several other abilities in the tree were set up to work with weapons, but didn't make it explicit. (Sundering Swings and Momentum Swing.)
This is a shame. I liked running LD on my earth tank playstyle monk as it had some lovely synergies. It's disappointing to hear that rather than broaden out the ED to work well with wraps, they are being cut off from ~half the ED entirely.

Sad panda.

Oh well; GMOF with Haste Boost and Extra Boosts twisted in for both my monks it is then. :/

Missing_Minds
09-05-2012, 06:03 PM
Despite the threats, I won't lie to you - the Legendary Dreadnought has always been thematically intended as an epic destiny used with physical weapons.

Eladrin, I don't know what your (the developers) current schedule is other than probably busy.

But do you think it would be possible for a developer to put aside 30 minutes or so a week to create (probably with Tolero's or Cordovan's help) a Developer Diary of an Epic Desity. One a week, such that we can gain insight into what was intended and what wasn't? And maybe in the case of the zombie bear, what you want to come back to be able to do?

Or maybe even some time with DDO podcasters to do interviews over an ED every week?

There have been SOOO many player considered bugs that per a later patch, were actually working as intended. That sort of practice looks really shady and shotty to the players, but then again.... We haven't gotten any feed back from developers hardly, or even designers over intention.

I enjoyed the series Babylon 5. From it there is a quote.
Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.

In this instance, I know my side. We have seen the patch/update notes of changes. Tell us now the third, the reasoning and intention, please.

danotmano1998
09-06-2012, 02:08 PM
Despite the threats, I won't lie to you - the Legendary Dreadnought has always been thematically intended as an epic destiny used with physical weapons.

Volcano's Edge, Lightning Mace, and Anvil of Thunder explicitly mentioned the weapon list. Pulverizer was clarified with Update 15 to mention that handwraps did not count as a bludgeoning weapon for it.

Several other abilities in the tree were set up to work with weapons, but didn't make it explicit. (Sundering Swings and Momentum Swing.)

Thanks for the explanation and clarification.
Maybe not the answer a lot of people wanted to hear, but it's an answer nevertheless.

DeafeningWhisper
09-06-2012, 02:38 PM
Despite the threats, I won't lie to you - the Legendary Dreadnought has always been thematically intended as an epic destiny used with physical weapons.

Volcano's Edge, Lightning Mace, and Anvil of Thunder explicitly mentioned the weapon list. Pulverizer was clarified with Update 15 to mention that handwraps did not count as a bludgeoning weapon for it.

Several other abilities in the tree were set up to work with weapons, but didn't make it explicit. (Sundering Swings and Momentum Swing.)

Humm, this makes me wonder how many destinies will be "fixed" by excluding weapons/classes in the future because it was "always meant to be that way". I don't mind not been able to do something because its not how it works, but giving the option then removing it later because of missing text (and bad implementation) feels in poor taste...

I'll start a pool for how long untill Shiradi can't be taken by sorcs/wizs or no longer works with spells.

Ovrad
09-06-2012, 11:59 PM
This makes no sense, it goes against the concept of customization of DnD. Why would you want to restrict classes to a single viable destiny? Except maybe to reduce the number of bugs you must fix...

Customization was always one of this game's strong point, if you start taking it out, we might as well play D3 where everything is decided for us. :(

azrael4h
09-07-2012, 06:17 AM
This makes no sense, it goes against the concept of customization of DnD. Why would you want to restrict classes to a single viable destiny? Except maybe to reduce the number of bugs you must fix...

Customization was always one of this game's strong point, if you start taking it out, we might as well play D3 where everything is decided for us. :(

The EDs have always been pigeon-holing characters. Any statements about character customization have been lip service. The entire game has been pushing in this direction, with all multi-classes and non-standard builds increasingly being discriminated against by the devs.

JOTMON
09-07-2012, 07:48 AM
The EDs have always been pigeon-holing characters. Any statements about character customization have been lip service. The entire game has been pushing in this direction, with all multi-classes and non-standard builds increasingly being discriminated against by the devs.

This is my impression as well.

As the game moves forward is comes across as being intent on funneling classes by stripping away versatility and flexability in builds. We are getting more overall content and levels, but ultimately less is available to individuality and customizing.

The game on the front of it appears to becoming more pidgeon-holed, while this may be easier to control overall game variables in my opinion it breaks one of the big Draws of DDO ..Versatility.. builds like Multi-classing or using non-traditional weaponsets/gear while still being effective.

Epic destinies that I believed were supposed to be Generic Levels each with their own perks for any class are now coming across as only viable for specific classes. With all these changes I see you effectively are gimping yourself by not taking your assigned destiny. The only reason to level another destiny is for a tweak bonus for the twist of fate.

azrael4h
09-09-2012, 12:34 AM
This is my impression as well.

As the game moves forward is comes across as being intent on funneling classes by stripping away versatility and flexability in builds. We are getting more overall content and levels, but ultimately less is available to individuality and customizing.

The game on the front of it appears to becoming more pidgeon-holed, while this may be easier to control overall game variables in my opinion it breaks one of the big Draws of DDO ..Versatility.. builds like Multi-classing or using non-traditional weaponsets/gear while still being effective.

Epic destinies that I believed were supposed to be Generic Levels each with their own perks for any class are now coming across as only viable for specific classes. With all these changes I see you effectively are gimping yourself by not taking your assigned destiny. The only reason to level another destiny is for a tweak bonus for the twist of fate.

Yep. Though given the grind though worthless EDs, I'd say the fate points needed for most twists aren't worth it. And since it isn't worth it to grind for, it certainly isn't worth buying a store tome.

djl
09-09-2012, 12:54 AM
Yep. Though given the grind though worthless EDs, I'd say the fate points needed for most twists aren't worth it. And since it isn't worth it to grind for, it certainly isn't worth buying a store tome.

Thankfully, we have House of EXP to make the progression through those worthless Destinies far less painful. If all you're doing is the same 45 second routine ad infinitum, it really makes no difference what Destiny you are in because you don't need the added bonuses to do that.

The added fate points are absolutely worthwhile. Until you have twisted Sense Weakness on a melee toon, you do not realize the value it brings. And come U16, you will no longer need to buy a tome to reach the maximum useful amount of fate points. With the new Destiny, the maximum possible total will rise to 20, but due to the costs there is nothing you can unlock with 20 points that you couldn't unlock with 18.

azrael4h
09-09-2012, 09:41 AM
Thankfully, we have House of EXP to make the progression through those worthless Destinies far less painful. If all you're doing is the same 45 second routine ad infinitum, it really makes no difference what Destiny you are in because you don't need the added bonuses to do that.

The added fate points are absolutely worthwhile. Until you have twisted Sense Weakness on a melee toon, you do not realize the value it brings. And come U16, you will no longer need to buy a tome to reach the maximum useful amount of fate points. With the new Destiny, the maximum possible total will rise to 20, but due to the costs there is nothing you can unlock with 20 points that you couldn't unlock with 18.

Running one (very easy) quest millions of times is not my idea of fun. I'll just go play Geneforge.

Besides, you know they will nerf that particular quest into the group, making it only ran for flagging, Drow weapons, and the seal. And they'll probably nerf that too. It happened with challenges, ensuring they are not worth running.

nibel
09-11-2012, 07:12 AM
The EDs have always been pigeon-holing characters. Any statements about character customization have been lip service. The entire game has been pushing in this direction, with all multi-classes and non-standard builds increasingly being discriminated against by the devs.

There is a big differece between "useful for very few classes" and "not useful for every class".

Draconic Incarnation is the DPS spellcasting destiny. Useful for wizard, sorcerer, druid, FvS and clerics. Maybe bard and artificer. There are some low-level twists useful for melees if they want to grind for it.

Magister is the DC-based spellcasting destiny. Useful for wizard, sorcerer, artificer, bard, druid, fvs and cleric.

Fatesinger is a buffing destiny. Useful for any class because it gives free songs to boost their main active abilities.

Shadowdancer is a physical "spellcasting" destiny, clearly based on the assassin/shadowdancer PnP prestige classes. As such, it is more advantageous to rogues, but can be well-used by bard, artificer, ranger, monk, fighter, paladin and melee-based casters builds.

Grandmaster of Flowers is a ki-based destiny. As such, it greatly benefits monks and characters with monk levels, since that to retain ki, you have to play unarmored. However, there are great passive abilities on this ED that benefits basically anyone.

Legendary Dreadnough is clearly a melee-weapon-based destiny, seen by their top-tier stuff requiring some specific weapons to function. It's akin to Kensei. Useful for fighter, barbarian, monk (if using a weapon), rogue, melee artificer, bard, ranger and paladin.

Shiradi Champion is a ranged destiny (weapon and spell based). As such, it is useful for basically anyone, but they need to be primarly focused on spellcasting (wizard, sorcerer, cleric, fvs, druid, bard, artificer) or using a ranged weapon most of the time (artificer, ranger, bowbarian, bow fighter, mechanic rogue, AA monk).

Fury of the Wild is another melee-based destiny. Useful for barbarian, fighter, paladin, rogue, ranger, bard, monk, melee fvs and melee artificer.

Unyielding Sentinel is the tank destiny. Useful for anyone that uses a shield, basically.

Exalted Angel is a healer destiny. Useful for cleric, fvs, bard and druid. Maybe paladin and rangers, if they want to. Some twistable abilities may be desirable for other casters too.

By far, only the exalted angel looks pidgeon-holed. And even this one clearly benefits 1/3 of the classes in game (or half, if you add pal/rgr).