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View Full Version : This won't be popular, but, Remove at least 2 forms of crafting.



Lagin
08-29-2012, 10:32 AM
We have now 14 ways to craft stuff.
Old items & weapons are now just relics with no value.
Being able to make a min lvl 9 + 6 item is too much.

We have SO MANY BUGS & DELAYS in animations, that there needs to be a halt put to the over-development of craft-able gear.

If the amount of code used in making Cannith and a few other forms of crafting are removed, then maybe, just maybe some of the huge coding glitches (bugs) can get smoothed out.
_______________________________________________

In a few certain developers minds, giving us something to strive, grind & spend TP's on, in-place of quality hand crafted content, was, and is a bad move for the game's performance.

Which is the point of the thread, game performance.
As stated by a dev, "ALL of your characters info goes into one single arrow or bolt, thus causing a coding nightmare"

Simple, common sense applies here people. (take a note from WotC & D&D) over producing, and adding all these strings of data can, and are breaking down the game.

_______________________________________________

Simple solution, give players 4 months to go crazy on say, Cannith crafting, then stop all future access. Remove it from the game, and find a way to trim code used to implement it.

The less info you have to input for every arrow & bolt would go down, yes?

eris2323
08-29-2012, 10:37 AM
While I hate what the crafting system has turned into, I don't agree.

Sounds like we need to remove all arrows and bolts from the game, to me!

Cyr
08-29-2012, 10:44 AM
The less info you have to input for every arrow & bolt would go down, yes?

If the game actually functions like that quote stated the developers need to fix their horrible coding at the root of the problem and not address it by work arounds like this would be.

There is no good reason why that sort of thing would be occuring, but lots of lazy bad coding reasons why it could be happening.

Karavek
08-29-2012, 10:47 AM
personally I say remove all the silly collectables except special ones like dragon scales and relics etc. instead just create an alchemist shop that sales things like pure water etc. Why am I finding pure water in dusty danky dungeons anyways?

remove all ammunition. Its been clear for a while now the only really viable ranged builds all use unlimited ammo be it arcane archer or artificer( seeing alot of old repeater rogue and even run and gun nun players grabbing one lvl in arty for easy xbow profs and unlimited ammo spell.

remove trash loot. it should all be big piles of gold, and named items related to the named bosses we fight. The amount of loose magic laying around the world is ridiculous by any stretch of the imagination.

Remove green steel entirely as its always been the source gear tier imbalance between average gamers and hard core raiders. instead put the art department on it making truly awesome armor and weapon skins you can earn to apply to any gear you favor. do taht with all raids in general actually.

Make challenges give a single generic widget reward, expand their reward lists, and make it the go to for custom powerful gear.

Either that or impliment proper PnP crafting for 3.5 D20. then Id make a crafting wizard,cleric,bard, and druid and be one happy camper making my stuff myself.

but really just the lag and delay I get when opening an ingrediant or collectable bag really is telling of how much it lags down the game processing all that info.

Lagin
08-29-2012, 10:50 AM
personally I say remove all the silly collectables except special ones like dragon scales and relics etc. instead just create an alchemist shop that sales things like pure water etc. Why am I finding pure water in dusty danky dungeons anyways?

remove all ammunition. Its been clear for a while now the only really viable ranged builds all use unlimited ammo be it arcane archer or artificer( seeing alot of old repeater rogue and even run and gun nun players grabbing one lvl in arty for easy xbow profs and unlimited ammo spell.

remove trash loot. it should all be big piles of gold, and named items related to the named bosses we fight. The amount of loose magic laying around the world is ridiculous by any stretch of the imagination.

Remove green steel entirely as its always been the source gear tier imbalance between average gamers and hard core raiders. instead put the art department on it making truly awesome armor and weapon skins you can earn to apply to any gear you favor. do taht with all raids in general actually.

Make challenges give a single generic widget reward, expand their reward lists, and make it the go to for custom powerful gear.

Either that or impliment proper PnP crafting for 3.5 D20. then Id make a crafting wizard,cleric,bard, and druid and be one happy camper making my stuff myself.

but really just the lag and delay I get when opening an ingrediant or collectable bag really is telling of how much it lags down the game processing all that info.

Love it! :cool:

WielderofGigantus
08-29-2012, 10:51 AM
If the amount of code used in making Cannith and a few other forms of crafting are removed, then maybe, just maybe some of the huge coding glitches (bugs) can get smoothed out.

Maybe

Possibly

Could be

Probably not

Unlikely

Doubt it


You got any reason to believe that the dozen or so crafting systems are affecting people when they are not actively crafting?

Tshober
08-29-2012, 10:51 AM
I might be okay with your suggestion for removing some crafting types as long as Cannith crafting is not one to be removed. Cannith crafting is the only crafting system that has crafting levels and many people spent many, many hours leveling up their crafting levels to be proficient in it. None of the other crafting in DDO requires that kind of crafting skill in a character. The only thing the other crafting systems need is mats. So if you turn those off, no one will be stuck with having wasted hundreds of hours building a character for it.

But your post seems to imply that you would like to see Cannith crafting be one of those eliminated. If that is really what you are suggesting, then I strongly object. I dedicated an entire character to it and leveled that character up to level 21 (to get the arti crafting bonuses) and leveled up their crafting skills up to 150/144/143. That was a ton of work! I would be very disappointed, to say the least, if I had to scrap that character that I have put so much work into.

Lagin
08-29-2012, 10:52 AM
Maybe
You got any reason to believe that the dozen or so crafting systems are affecting people when they are not actively crafting?

I'll let one of our resident techies answer that for you.:eek:

Lagin
08-29-2012, 10:59 AM
But your post seems to imply that you would like to see Cannith crafting be one of those eliminated. If that is really what you are suggesting, then I strongly object. I dedicated an entire character to it and leveled that character up to level 21 (to get the arti crafting bonuses) and leveled up their crafting skills up to 150/144/143. That was a ton of work! I would be very disappointed, to say the least, if I had to scrap that character that I have put so much work into.

I was waiting and prepared for this;

That is the trap & rub all in one with my suggestion.

You have soaked hundreds of hours & money dedicated to that system. Which is fine, that's what they wanted. You get tricked out stuff & Turbine makes $. Good business sense.

Bad gaming insight, as I see it. Now you're stuck!!!

Yes Cannith is the crux of complicated crafting. And it's completely over-done.

I'm not trying to single out any one form of crafting. I'm suggesting the entire system is over-done, and bogs down the system.

It is most likely too late to change any of this, sad to say.
And if changes are made, people like you, get shafted!

The thread should inspire some interesting debate. And maybe get some feedback the devs.
Of course holding my breath isn't a good idea at my age! :eek:

Rauven
08-29-2012, 11:14 AM
[COLOR=DarkOrange]Which is the point of the thread, game performance.
As stated by a dev, "ALL of your characters info goes into one single arrow or bolt, thus causing a coding nightmare"

You have a link to that comment? I remember reading it but can't find it atm.

madmaxhunter
08-29-2012, 11:14 AM
personally I say remove all the silly collectables except special ones like dragon scales and relics etc. instead just create an alchemist shop that sales things like pure water etc. Why am I finding pure water in dusty danky dungeons anyways?

remove all ammunition. Its been clear for a while now the only really viable ranged builds all use unlimited ammo be it arcane archer or artificer( seeing alot of old repeater rogue and even run and gun nun players grabbing one lvl in arty for easy xbow profs and unlimited ammo spell.

remove trash loot. it should all be big piles of gold, and named items related to the named bosses we fight. The amount of loose magic laying around the world is ridiculous by any stretch of the imagination.

Remove green steel entirely as its always been the source gear tier imbalance between average gamers and hard core raiders. instead put the art department on it making truly awesome armor and weapon skins you can earn to apply to any gear you favor. do taht with all raids in general actually.

Make challenges give a single generic widget reward, expand their reward lists, and make it the go to for custom powerful gear.

Either that or impliment proper PnP crafting for 3.5 D20. then Id make a crafting wizard,cleric,bard, and druid and be one happy camper making my stuff myself.

but really just the lag and delay I get when opening an ingrediant or collectable bag really is telling of how much it lags down the game processing all that info.

If I'm reading this correctly, you want a vanilla game with no reason to increase knowledge of the game. Just log on and play a few minutes until you get bored and go to something else. "Johnny, what did you get for the end reward?" "You funny Mike, I got the same thing I always get same as you". "GW2?" "Sure!"

ferd, I dunno if the changes you're proposing would make any difference, the lag existed before crafting was implemented, existed when I was running solo with Korthos gear.

Karavek
08-29-2012, 11:24 AM
If I'm reading this correctly, you want a vanilla game with no reason to increase knowledge of the game. Just log on and play a few minutes until you get bored and go to something else. "Johnny, what did you get for the end reward?" "You funny Mike, I got the same thing I always get same as you". "GW2?" "Sure!"

ferd, I dunno if the changes you're proposing would make any difference, the lag existed before crafting was implemented, existed when I was running solo with Korthos gear.

Id prefer a game with no farming goals if that is what your wondering.

In PnP its not really even a point one can argue, magic times come from magic casters. Hence its always the casters with the ideal gear for their wants and needs. This is especially true of items that can shield you against or hurt those armed with magic. Wizards dont go around crafting swords and armor that is more dangerous to them then anyone else.

Now if your friends with, and loyal to a wizard and he knows it, and trusts you fully, then maybe you can hope for some nice gear if you invest the gold and let him use a certain spell to siphon off some of your xp so he can use it for crafting.

That is one of the foundations of D&D social class balance we lost in DDo and I for one miss it alot.

and we have never really had an era of DDO not bogged down in useless collectables, adding bags for them was a step in the wrong direction, and piling on more and more is throwing the problem down the stairs after picking it up out of its wheelchair.

kafrielveddicus
08-29-2012, 11:35 AM
I would like to add my two cents,

I am highly disappointed that they made the stone of change ritual crafting with certain collectables increase the minimum level of a crafted item, they should just be added bonuses based off collecting the appropriate collectables, they are such small additions they should not increase an item by 2 levels.

ie;
+1 force damage per hit
+1-4 force damage per critical hit
+1 alchemical bonus to AC on Armor (especially now that AC means nothing)
+1 alchemical bonus to AC on Shield (especially now that AC means nothing)
+1 luck bonus on trinkets

***Are any of those worth a +2 minimum level increase***

madmaxhunter
08-29-2012, 11:55 AM
Unfortunately, there is little to compare DDO to PnP Karavek. In PnP, if you had a decent DM, he would hand-pick treasure rewards for the group. He may have used the loot tables, but he certainly would not have been bound to what he rolled... unless it was a drunken monty haul night (I used to love those).

And PnP was imagination, I used to play with my eyes closed most of the time, creating the world the DM was describing, unlimited possibilities. That can never be duplicated in DDO.

WielderofGigantus
08-29-2012, 12:15 PM
I'll let one of our resident techies answer that for you.:eek:

What? No links to our resident techies? You are leaving it to other people to prove your points?




***Are any of those worth a +2 minimum level increase***

I guess that raises the value of a nice random gen item. Same with the Winter Fest crafting.

Good to know that Cannith Crafting doesn't replace everything.

danzig138
08-29-2012, 12:17 PM
personally I say Mostly bad ideas? Yep.

In PnP its not really even a point one can argue
I can. Unearthed Arcana, Crafting Points. Which is the system I would have based Cannith Crafting on.

Silverwren
08-29-2012, 12:34 PM
Well Cannith crafting is the one system that should NOT be shut down or replaced. I spent WAY too much time getting my ONE toon to the point where she can craft something decent for guildies. I, for one, won't give that up without a big fight!

I would consider giving up Greensteel crafting IF those of us who ground out 108 Shroud runs and 94 Devils Assault quests were allowed to trade in our GS items for an equal item, one to one, no crafting, no grinding. Give us a list of equal items to choose from and I'll give up my GS items.

Otherwise all the chasing and grinding for materials was nothing but a big waste of time.

Tshober
08-29-2012, 12:37 PM
personally I say remove all the silly collectables except special ones like dragon scales and relics etc. instead just create an alchemist shop that sales things like pure water etc. Why am I finding pure water in dusty danky dungeons anyways?.

I disagree. These are an excellent way for low level characters to get some plat and some useful rewards.




remove all ammunition. Its been clear for a while now the only really viable ranged builds all use unlimited ammo be it arcane archer or artificer( seeing alot of old repeater rogue and even run and gun nun players grabbing one lvl in arty for easy xbow profs and unlimited ammo spell.

I agree.




remove trash loot. it should all be big piles of gold, and named items related to the named bosses we fight. The amount of loose magic laying around the world is ridiculous by any stretch of the imagination.

I disagree. This only makes sense of you also eliminate Cannith crafting which I strongly object to. See my reasons posted earlier in the thread.




Remove green steel entirely as its always been the source gear tier imbalance between average gamers and hard core raiders. instead put the art department on it making truly awesome armor and weapon skins you can earn to apply to any gear you favor. do taht with all raids in general actually.

I agree.






Make challenges give a single generic widget reward, expand their reward lists, and make it the go to for custom powerful gear.

I disagree. Not a fan of challenges at all. You said, elsewhere in this thread, "Id prefer a game with no farming goals". Challenges are literally nothing but farming. No pretense at a story or a rationale for doing it. Just jump in and farm tokens till you drop. Eliminate challenges would be a preferable suggestion.





Either that or impliment proper PnP crafting for 3.5 D20. then Id make a crafting wizard,cleric,bard, and druid and be one happy camper making my stuff myself.

I agree.

BruceTheHoon
08-29-2012, 01:17 PM
The less info you have to input for every arrow & bolt would go down, yes?

No.
The dev said, that all of the character's info goes into it. Feats, BAB, +to hit bonuses, enhancement bonuses, character's spatial orientation, damage bonuses, buffs, target's buffs, etc.
Yes, enhancements on an arrow does play a role here, but since we have absolutely no bugs that would differentiate normal arrows form crafted ones (or Deneith ones, or xoriat ones, or starter ones, or conjured ones, ...) I have more than a strong suspicion, that "arrow code" doesn't give a flying F about what's the arrow's life story.

Therefore I find your suggestion ridiculous, since it's based on a soooo extremely far fetched assumption and a seriously questionable interpretation, that one might as well start a religion with it.

In case this is just a veiled attempt to "break others' toys" born from an ulterior, more deplorable motive: ML9 +6 stat items can now be found as random loot. I have a few and a few more of ML11 ones from Gianthold.

herzkos
08-29-2012, 01:44 PM
interesting.

I concur that there should be less crafting methods, though I don't think getting rid of cannith crafting is the
answer unless it is the major culprit in the item swap lag.

have been working on a crafter (38/36/35) through deconning items (mostly) so I've put in some time but
nowhere near some folks.

First to go away should be the ancient stone of change crafting. if you need to, fold it into the cannith
crafting as the same recipe it is now.
Next eliminate greensteel (like someone posted earlier). The weapons were OP when they were brought in
and they are still OP for TRing.

Consolidate all of the various chain crafting options into the cannith crafting system.
Seriously, Red fens, Sentinels, Lordsmarch, that floating eyeball one with all the lords of whatever; how
many different crafting options do we need. Just fold them into a WELL MADE/programmed crafting system.

Ingredients: way too many ingredients. Cut it back down to something approaching sanity.
You want to craft bane weapons ;), make it 3 tiers of reward for the monster manual. No soul gems, no special
arrows. (This would probably take a long time due to the incompleteness of the MM).

anyway, just thoughts off the top of my head.

ps, feel free to hack down the complexity of cannith crafting to the point where the gear doesn't have any
difference from random loot. ALSO, get rid of master crafting. OK, so here is your tailor made twink item: oh,
lookie, just by farming x quest, I can make it lower level than a randomly generated version of the same thing.
Bahhhh!


p.p.s, bane item crafting from the MM, you heard it here first (i hope).

Lagin
08-29-2012, 01:49 PM
No.
The dev said, that all of the character's info goes into it. Feats, BAB, +to hit bonuses, enhancement bonuses, character's spatial orientation, damage bonuses, buffs, target's buffs, etc.
Yes, enhancements on an arrow does play a role here, but since we have absolutely no bugs that would differentiate normal arrows form crafted ones (or Deneith ones, or xoriat ones, or starter ones, or conjured ones, ...) I have more than a strong suspicion, that "arrow code" doesn't give a flying F about what's the arrow's life story.

Therefore I find your suggestion ridiculous, since it's based on a soooo extremely far fetched assumption and a seriously questionable interpretation, that one might as well start a religion with it.

In case this is just a veiled attempt to "break others' toys" born from an ulterior, more deplorable motive: ML9 +6 stat items can now be found as random loot. I have a few and a few more of ML11 ones from Gianthold.

There you have it!!! Another post by someone heavily time-sinked in cannith crafting.

It's not about cannith, I knew using that name would rile some people. It's about everything going into all the crafting systems, that if trimmed back, might help other areas of the game! THAT'S THE POINT.

BruceTheHoon
08-29-2012, 02:19 PM
There you have it!!! Another post by someone heavily time-sinked in cannith crafting.

It's not about cannith, I knew using that name would rile some people. It's about everything going into all the crafting systems, that if trimmed back, might help other areas of the game! THAT'S THE POINT.

What I have or don't have invested in cannith crafting has no relations to what I've said. What I've said is, that your orangcoloured point is based on a far fetched assumption and a questionable interpretation and THAT'S HWY I'M AGAINST IT.

Therigar
08-29-2012, 02:52 PM
As stated by a dev, "ALL of your characters info goes into one single arrow or bolt, thus causing a coding nightmare"

I'd like to see the reference that goes with the quote.

As someone who has done a bit of object oriented coding, I find it improbable that ALL character data would go with every arrow or bolt. Rather, I suspect that only the relevant data need go and how much that is depends on how efficient their data storage and retrieval happens to be.

The only reason I can think of to send all data is if it is just too cumbersome to sort out separate data bits and to consolidate them efficiently during combat and damage routines.

As a simple example, the arrow might only need to know that it was shot by character A with whatever buffs and weapon procs might be appropriate. Character A can be a pointer to the player's place in the group rather than to their name -- but probably more efficient it can be an internal code that uniquely identifies each character totally unattached to name. The remaining information can be simple codes that reference a table for to-hit calculations or for effects to proc for to-damage calculations.

It makes no sense whatsoever to include things like inventory, banked items, etc. And, I would seriously doubt that this is what is meant by saying "All of your character's info" goes into an arrow.

Rather, I suspect that what is meant is that all of the information needed to determine to hit and to damage along with identifying the character that shot the arrow goes into the arrow. And, I don't see that as being problematic in any way as there needs to be some way to accurately determine if you hit or if you miss and to decide what damage should proc when you hit.

IMO, this is simply reading the quote out of its context and ascribing to it a meaning that is not there.

countfitz
08-29-2012, 02:55 PM
While it's probably far too late, this game needed to CONSOLIDATE crafting.

Green Steel stays how it is.
Cannith Stays how it is.


Upgrading items in: Dreaming Dark, Red Fens (yeah, you can upgrade items from there), House D, Sora Katra, Reign of Madness, nearly finished Cannith items, and finally Necro and Giant Hold, should all use the SAME MECHANIC, a single upgrade seal, that can drop from any of the end quests or end chain rewards, all interchangeable, and the only difference is you have to use the upgrading alter (which needs to be put in the raids/end quest, so at least people have to run them). So we now have a SINGLE ingredient, where as currently we have, by my count, 32 items needed, I might be missing some. And, worse, some of these ingredient AUTO DROP IN OUR BACKPACKS. Uncool.

Epics: Just drop the items whole or have a SINGLE ingredient to upgrade them (see above, use the same one and have the alter in the epic version of the quest), the current system is now out of date. Also, to streamline the system, have epic slots and guild augment slots be the same ingredients, same vendor, same type, not "color" system, no **** like that.
Guild Slots: See above.

Trapmaking: Get rid of it. Once you didn't let us use traps in public places for fun, they really didn't do anything. I've never seen them used successfully by any rogue since the mechanic was introduced.

Stone of Change/Risia: Get 'rid' of them, by incorporating them into Cannith Crafting, which would also, you know, let us use them in Cannith gear. Also, fix the ML bug so we can use them. Also, make sure we can still put these on any item, not JUST Cannith gear. That would be nice. Keep the same ingredient lists, of course. Just consolidate.


Dragon touched and Alchemical: I'm torn on what to do with these. For now, keep them as is would be a decent suggestion... but I think they could be consolidated, perhaps even with Green steel, or some form thereof... and not break anything... though it would limit some options. Dunno.

Sadly, none of this will come to pass, it is far too late, WAY TOO MUCH WORK (for no profit) and people will complain about all the work they did for nothing.

Oh, and one final thing: Consolidate all the ingredients from the Challenges to Cannith Challenges... so the eveningstar loot is just done away with, those challenges all drop Cannith ingredients, and you can get the good Cannith gear from them too, plus, maybe the cloaks. But no more lotto, and no more ingredients.

countfitz
08-29-2012, 02:58 PM
The above post is a huge wall of text. That is because crafting is so complicated, overwhelming, and unnecessarily large and involved, not because I can't summarize/write.

But anyway... TL;DR - Consolidate as many ingredients as possible into one, making the only differences the alters used, which would be in the quest the items belong in.

justhavinfun
08-29-2012, 03:13 PM
Crafting in and of itself does not bother me. I do see a problem with the insane number of crafting systems DDO has. The problem is that this is what happens when crafting is not built into a game from the start. You end up with multiple ways to craft and multiple ingredients that you need. The thing is if you want to craft do it if you don't well then good luck on finding that special drop you are looking for.

My biggest problem with crafting is the insane amount of ingredients and collectables DDO has. Come on Devs it has to stop somewhere. Almost have to have a complete inventory page filled with bags just to keep up. This does not even cover the multiple bags kept in the bank. Then at least once a month you have to spend a couple of days sorting all of it out. At times I actually dread seeing the purple bags laying around on the floor. I have even gone so far as to refuse to run any quest with fire based mobs during the ice games just to avoid the coins.

janave
08-29-2012, 03:50 PM
The random loot and end-reward lists improved greatly, I wouldnt mind getting rid of all forms of crafting. Its a huge mess really, unlikely to happen at this point tho, i guess they will plan ahead better for ddo2.

Rauven
08-29-2012, 08:03 PM
As stated by a dev, "ALL of your characters info goes into one single arrow or bolt, thus causing a coding nightmare"

I'd like to see the reference that goes with the quote.

I haven't been able to find the original dev post but IIRC what he/she was talking about were (cross)bow and gear effects being applied to each arrow/bolt as it is fired. Effectively, each time you fire an arrow/bolt a new version of it is created that includes any innate properties of the arrow/bolt, plus any damage effects from the (cross)bow (e.g., holy), gear (Shrieking Bolt on Wind Howler Bracers) and imbues (arti or AA ranger).

Unfortunately, I searched this morning and again for about 20 mins just now and I can not find the original post.

Regardless of the original dev post and the meaning behind it, I highly doubt that removing code for the various crafting systems would solve anything. The problem is the spaghetti mess that has become of the game code. This is total an assumption on my part, I do not have any direct knowledge of the state of the game's base code and is based entirely on previous examples of unintended consequences arising from a small change here or there. E.g., when minII crafting, and nothing else, was broken even though nothing was changed to the GS crafting system.

In fact attempting to selectively remove a portion of code, such as crafting, would likely result in more problems that it may or may not solve.

donfilibuster
08-29-2012, 10:14 PM
Haven't seen the post about the bolts and arrows but there was also the twf vs. doublestrike debate and all that.

When they had that performance issue with the combat system they just changed the game mechanics.
Therefore it looks unlikely that they take down a system for fixes instead of merely tweaking it.

That practice obviously lead to more bugs with every new system.
Since QA time seems to be on budget, there ought to be some process to work preemptively instead of correctively.