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View Full Version : Just do it: Ring of Evasion



Certon
08-28-2012, 10:43 AM
Do it. Make the Ring of Evasion. Throw the build community into disarray. Make it a rare drop in any chest. Make 'em work for it. Oh, and make it BtA.

Ring of Evasion (Min Level: 11)

Superior Evasion: This ring has a small air elemental bound to it. The wearer of this ring acts as if they had the Evasion feat. If the wearer of this ring already has Evasion, this ring grants Improved Evasion, and if the wearer of this ring already has Improved Evasion, they do not automatically fail their Reflex saves on a roll of 1.

Ape_Man
08-28-2012, 10:44 AM
Make this an epic upgrade for a Chattering ring :)

zarthak
08-28-2012, 10:44 AM
god no that is game breaking. it doesnt matter how low the drop rate

Certon
08-28-2012, 10:47 AM
Make this an epic upgrade for a Chattering ring :)

Hehe. I like your thinking.

Vordax
08-28-2012, 10:50 AM
Make this an epic upgrade for a Chattering ring :)

Requires 3 Chattering Rings, a shard of the epic ring of spell storing and a +4 Dex tome to upgrade.

Archangel666
08-28-2012, 10:50 AM
Then lets add a ring that adds every spell in the game to your char and gives you 5000 Spell Points.

Ancient
08-28-2012, 10:53 AM
Requires 3 Chattering Rings, a shard of the epic ring of spell storing and a +4 Dex tome to upgrade.

And then list it as an ingredient for the new superior halfling bane crafting recipie.

Ape_Man
08-28-2012, 10:54 AM
Can't we just grind up a few halflings?

Certon
08-28-2012, 10:59 AM
Yes, this might be a powerful ring. Most likely TOO powerful. I'm attempting to illustrate a point. Evasion is so powerful that many builds center around 2 levels in monk or rogue simply to receive the benefit of evasion.

The ring is a bad idea. I completely agree. But just as bad is an ability which is so tempting that in many instances, people will forego a mix of classes or a single class build. Many builds are useless. Many more builds are thought of as useless because they are missing a 'critical feat.' Evasion is one of those feats.

Sonos
08-28-2012, 11:07 AM
Requires 3 Chattering Rings, a shard of the epic ring of spell storing and a +4 Dex tome to upgrade.

Sweet, I totally have that. Well minus the 3 chattering rings, and +4 Dex tome.

Oh and the shard of ERSS... but I'll get that soon[tm] (Hey! Dreams are free, don't judge me).

Ape_Man
08-28-2012, 11:11 AM
Yes, this might be a powerful ring. Most likely TOO powerful. I'm attempting to illustrate a point. Evasion is so powerful that many builds center around 2 levels in monk or rogue simply to receive the benefit of evasion.

The ring is a bad idea. I completely agree. But just as bad is an ability which is so tempting that in many instances, people will forego a mix of classes or a single class build. Many builds are useless. Many more builds are thought of as useless because they are missing a 'critical feat.' Evasion is one of those feats.

yet there are many, many people who DO NOT build for evasion.

Why is that?

I have both, and I've never considered evasion as I'm assuming you are. Just making the saves is enough.

Uska
08-28-2012, 11:16 AM
NO that is all

Karavek
08-28-2012, 11:19 AM
Yes, this might be a powerful ring. Most likely TOO powerful. I'm attempting to illustrate a point. Evasion is so powerful that many builds center around 2 levels in monk or rogue simply to receive the benefit of evasion.

The ring is a bad idea. I completely agree. But just as bad is an ability which is so tempting that in many instances, people will forego a mix of classes or a single class build. Many builds are useless. Many more builds are thought of as useless because they are missing a 'critical feat.' Evasion is one of those feats.

Actually it just sounds to me like your one of those purist players who think multi classing is somehow unfair. Multi Classing for a front loaded class ability always carries the costs of no cap stone, an artificial enhancment created just for DDO players who QQed like little girls over there not being enough reason to go to max lvl in a single class.

When I think of what Elminster is and how he is the blue print standard for 3E D20 and how one should make use of and take full advantage of multi classing to make a more well rounded and more deeply developed concept character and how there is even a sentiment of purism in DDOs community truly disgusts me.

If you want evasion its VERY easy to work into your build. If there is a capstone you want more from a class that doesnt give evasion, then build for the shadowdancer ED as it grants it to you as a lvl 5 inherent.

And that right there is the best reason it aint gonna happen kiddo. They made evasion be a ED lvl 5 auto grant. Do you think that will ever be allowed to be made obsolete before you can even earn it by an item from heroic lvls?

Vordax
08-28-2012, 11:28 AM
NO that is all

How about as a set bonus when all three are equipped:

Quarterstaff of the Healer - Master Work, +3 heal skill
Half Plate of the Quick - Master Work, +3 tumble skill
Trinket of the Alert - +3 listen

Set bonus: Evasion

:D

redspecter23
08-28-2012, 11:31 AM
There are always ways to make a ring like this balanced.

high min level requirement
additional penalties on the gear
the fact that it uses up a gear slot is a penalty all it's own

A straight up min lv 11 evasion ring is something that I agree is quite powerful. Perhaps something more like this.

Ring of Insight
min level 20
You gain +3 exceptional bonus to your reflex saves
Set bonus - if you have both Ring of Insight and Ring of Reflexes equipped you gain the evasion feat (or improved evasion if you already have evasion)

Ring of Reflexes
min level 20
You do not automatically fail reflex saving throws on a roll of 1
Set bonus - if you have both Ring of Insight and Ring of Reflexes equipped you gain the evasion feat (or improved evasion if you already have evasion)

In this case you give up both ring slots for evasion and minor bonuses to go with it. In some cases, it may be worth it. In other cases, this would be a junk set.

Here is a different take with a permanent evasion ability with a massive penalty to balance it.

Ring of Evasion
min level 18
You gain the evasion feat and minus 20 to your fortitude and will saves.

A nice ability with a very heavy price. Great for some encounters, but you couldn't leave it on full time. A swap in for reflex heavy encounters.

Or perhaps something like this

Ring of Evasion
min level 16
+4 exceptional reflex save
1 charge - recharges 1/day
Use a charge to gain evasion for 30 seconds

This one is no good for long encounters or permanent use, but gives a nice burst for getting past one encounter or a few nasty traps.

Certon
08-28-2012, 11:32 AM
Actually it just sounds to me like your one of those purist players who think multi classing is somehow unfair. Multi Classing for a front loaded class ability always carries the costs of no cap stone, an artificial enhancment created just for DDO players who QQed like little girls over there not being enough reason to go to max lvl in a single class.

Actually, you couldn't be further from the truth. I have a 18 wiz/2 monk PM that melees, a 19 Rogue/1 fighter, and a 18 wiz/2 rogue. I don't mind splashing at all. I'm not advocating purity.

Heck, I think arcane levels should stack just like BaB. The same goes for divine. If anything, this game favors single class casters already. I'd rather see it swing the other way, but we live in an imperfect world and things don't work out like we wish they could.

I repeat: I am not a purist. I just want to see more diversity.

pie2655
08-28-2012, 11:37 AM
/signed

ferrite
08-28-2012, 11:46 AM
They're not gonna do that. Not ever.

Welcome to thread #10,791 that attempts to bring evasion into the game for non-evasion classes.

Its not gonna be an item enchantment.
Its not gonna be a set bonus.
Its not gonna be a potion or consumable.
Its not gonna be an enhancement.
Its not gonna be an epic ability.
Its not gonna happen at all. Period.

There is a rather large pile where these sad threads eventually wind up.

Lithic
08-28-2012, 11:49 AM
How about as a set bonus when all three are equipped:

Quarterstaff of the Healer - Master Work, +3 heal skill
Half Plate of the Quick - Master Work, +3 tumble skill
Trinket of the Alert - +3 listen

Set bonus: Evasion

:D

I don't know if you did this on purpose, but that set bonus can only be aquired with an armor that eliminates evasion (heavy armor) heh.

If done on purpose, I definately approve!

eris2323
08-28-2012, 11:51 AM
They're not gonna do that. Not ever.

Welcome to thread #10,791 that attempts to bring evasion into the game for non-evasion classes.

Its not gonna be an item enchantment.
Its not gonna be a set bonus.
Its not gonna be a potion or consumable.
Its not gonna be an enhancement.
Its not gonna be an epic ability.
Its not gonna happen at all. Period.

There is a rather large pile where these sad threads eventually wind up.

But it's already an epic ability (shadowdancer)

ferrite
08-28-2012, 12:09 PM
But it's already an epic ability (shadowdancer)

Oh yeah. Correction to text, selectable ability.

Which is fine as you must still take levels in a class to get it.

Vordax
08-28-2012, 12:14 PM
I don't know if you did this on purpose, but that set bonus can only be aquired with an armor that eliminates evasion (heavy armor) heh.

If done on purpose, I definately approve!

The ring has no armor restrictions for use in PnP, so it would actually still work. I can't imagine a capped character giving up those 3 equipment slots for evasion though.

Such755
08-28-2012, 12:16 PM
Not even if it requires 15 +4 tomes and has a drop rate of 0.0000000000001% from epic elite raid chests only.

twigzz
08-28-2012, 12:16 PM
Don't do it.

/not signed

incineration
08-28-2012, 12:18 PM
Oh yeah. Correction to text, selectable ability.

Which is fine as you must still take levels in a class to get it.

and monk past life clickable (evasive trance)

samthedagger
08-28-2012, 12:19 PM
I could actually see them implementing this as a charged item, with perhaps one 1 minute charge or three 30 second charges. It would be a much sought-after items, but if they made it an ultra rare drop that could drop anywhere, no one would farm for it. A lucky few would find it and either use it or make mad plat selling it. But even a ring that does nothing but grant evasion (never mind the improved evasion or no fail on a 1 results) would probably be too powerful an item for this game where Reflex saves are all too common.

Nevertheless, I personally believe evasion to be over-hyped. I have a couple characters with two levels of rogue, but they are mainly to get trap skills and the evasion is just a nice bonus. Trap skills are far more valuable to have in my opinion. My main character is a pure cleric and I have never said to myself "Darn, I wish I had evasion." And I usually have little difficulty getting my Reflex high enough to save most of the time.

licho
08-28-2012, 12:30 PM
Just no.
The game is broken enough without it.

Milikki
08-28-2012, 12:53 PM
How about

Ring of evasion
Requires base dex 20 umd(40)
Minimum level 18
Adds.........

I would type out ghe rest, but using a phone

Thrudh
08-28-2012, 01:02 PM
My main character is a pure cleric and I have never said to myself "Darn, I wish I had evasion." And I usually have little difficulty getting my Reflex high enough to save most of the time.

It helps when you can cast protection from elements and heal yourself.

My barbarian doesn't have evasion, and I HAVE said to myself "Darn, I wish I had evasion" a few times while lying dead.

I say absolutely not to a ring of evasion.

bruener
08-28-2012, 01:04 PM
i wouldnt mind if it came as a set bonus with a high ml. chances are you would have to sacrafice something better in order to wear the set and get the bonus. just a straight evasion ring with ml 11 is too op IMO.

Thrudh
08-28-2012, 01:13 PM
NO to a ring of evasion...

It would destroy a lot of rogue and monk splash builds...

Turbine has already destroyed the iconic fighter/wizard multi-class... With all the magic clickables around with long-lasting low level wizard spells, there is ZERO reason to splash wizard...

I used to have a 11/5 ranger/wizard back when the cap was 16.... Being able to self-cast displacement, haste, shield, jump, exp retreat, blur, invisibility... these were useful spells for a melee fighter.

But then Turbine released permenant blur items, and long lasting shield, and jump, and invisibility clickables, and gave us haste and displacement clickables from the Shroud.

There is zero reason to splash wizard on a melee nowadays... You can be a pure fighter with no UMD, and STILL be able to self-cast all the good low-level wizard spells.

No to a ring of evasion... Just means fewer good build combos...

psteen1
08-28-2012, 01:15 PM
maybe it should be purchasable through the DDO store!!

ah... j/k... please don't hurt me.

Memnir
08-28-2012, 01:36 PM
No.

legendlore
08-28-2012, 01:46 PM
Wouldn't like to see the Ring of Evasion in game, since it would do a lot of builds a bit redundant and taking away a bit of the advantage of being rogue compared to artificer for example.

But with the addition to evasion in epic levels for any heroic build I could see some other evasion granting stuff from pnp being implemented. Personally wouldn't mind if they added the feat Warning shout from Complete Scoundrel for example and I'm sure there are some other examples that require some reasonable build investment to make them ok to implement.

Warning shout: pre-req: bardic music, perform 9 ranks, evasion.
Effect: expend 2 songs to give target +5 morale bonus to reflex save and evasion for their next reflex save.

CaptainSpacePony
08-28-2012, 01:50 PM
A 1st I was skeptical, then after reading everyone's comments I figured out a way to make it work:

Ring of Evasion
ML2
+2 Reflex Save
Must already possess the Evasion Feat

smkalinowski
08-28-2012, 02:03 PM
Personally, I'd be fine with them adding evasion as a selectable feat so long as it had a lot of investment in pre-reqs to balance the benefit. For instance:

Evasion:
Pre-Requisites: All of Dodge, Mobility, Lightning Reflexes, and one of Acrobatic or Jump 10 and Tumble 10

This would require sacrificing feats/skill points, which are valuable, just as multiclassing requires sacrificing the capstone, which is often, also valuable.

Talias006
08-28-2012, 02:19 PM
Yes, this might be a powerful ring. Most likely TOO powerful. I'm attempting to illustrate a point. Evasion is so powerful that many builds center around 2 levels in monk or rogue simply to receive the benefit of evasion.

The ring is a bad idea. I completely agree. But just as bad is an ability which is so tempting that in many instances, people will forego a mix of classes or a single class build. Many builds are useless. Many more builds are thought of as useless because they are missing a 'critical feat.' Evasion is one of those feats.


How about as a set bonus when all three are equipped:

Quarterstaff of the Healer - Master Work, +3 heal skill
Half Plate of the Quick - Master Work, +3 tumble skill
Trinket of the Alert - +3 listen

Set bonus: Evasion

:D

I will bring back my thoughts on this subject that are the same as when this was brought up originally back in '06-'07.

Only if (Improved)Evasion works in JUST Light Armor or Unarmored.

I have no desire to return to the days of the Batman builds, which Heavy Armor wearers gained benefit from Evasion.

Evasion was/is a tool to mitigate and offset the heavier armors by allowing your Dex to shine.
Back then AC was pretty much king of defenses, and Evasion a close second, so allowing both on the same character completely threw a wrench into many challenges the game offered.
We're now to a point where AC might actually matter again, and Evasion has gained dominance as top mitigation tool.
Allowing Evasion, AC, and PRR to all be good on the same character goes back to the dark days of DDO.

Not just no.
Hell No.

2x4
08-28-2012, 02:21 PM
Do it. Make the Ring of Evasion. Throw the build community into disarray. Make it a rare drop in any chest. Make 'em work for it. Oh, and make it BtA.

Ring of Evasion (Min Level: 11)

Superior Evasion: This ring has a small air elemental bound to it. The wearer of this ring acts as if they had the Evasion feat. If the wearer of this ring already has Evasion, this ring grants Improved Evasion, and if the wearer of this ring already has Improved Evasion, they do not automatically fail their Reflex saves on a roll of 1. This ring also harnesses the elemental power of electricity and every so often this energy will come to the surface in a storm of electrical fury which hits all enemies in your vicinity with a massive jolt of raw electrical power.

Now it's perfect :D

Aliss7
08-28-2012, 03:02 PM
This ring sounds really cheezy.

Actually, I feel any of the items that are granting feats in the game are kind of cheezy. I'm thinking of the * proficiency ones. Grant it, items which are that item itself is not so bad, like the shields, but stuff like the wind howler bracers granting longbow/shortbow proficency strike me as really cheezy.

HatsuharuZ
08-28-2012, 03:07 PM
This kind of item would be a bad idea. Giving class features as permanent item effects? Ugh... Might as well start selling unbound stones of experience that don't have the once per server per account limitation!

Certon
08-28-2012, 03:46 PM
This kind of item would be a bad idea. Giving class features as permanent item effects? Ugh... Might as well start selling unbound stones of experience that don't have the once per server per account limitation!

...or weapons that give you weapon finesse?

Dysmetria
08-28-2012, 03:52 PM
Actually it just sounds to me like your one of those purist players who think multi classing is somehow unfair. Multi Classing for a front loaded class ability always carries the costs of no cap stone, an artificial enhancment created just for DDO players who QQed like little girls over there not being enough reason to go to max lvl in a single class.I could have sworn that capstones were in the tabletop version, not "an artificial enhancement created just for DDO players..."

sebastianosmith
08-28-2012, 04:22 PM
I always find this type of discussion amusedly perplexing. Even if such an item were to be placed in game, there is no rule requiring one to use it. If Turbine decided to sell +10 Supreme Tomes in the store, there is no external compulsion to purchase them. I truly cannot fathom why or how what others loot, find, chance upon or buy effects another's playing experience. Über gear won't make a poor player good nor a good player great.

This is a game, after all. A game that, like its namesake and spiritual predecessor, excludes nothing from existing. A game that cannot be won or conquered. A game that gives those of sufficient imagination a place to be, if only for a short time, heroes.

Items do not define a character. Feats, no matter the source, do not define a character. Only a player can give a character life, breadth and purpose. Maybe I'm a hopeless romantic, living out a fantasy and dreaming of days gone by, but I think these things are often forgotten to the detriment of all.

Cyr
08-28-2012, 04:30 PM
NO to a ring of evasion...

It would destroy a lot of rogue and monk splash builds...


I would still go 2+ rogue or 2+ monk on most of my builds still. Pretty much any of them except my caster builds would stay the same. Ring slot is valuable and those splashes grant more then evasion, which while very good is not the only benefit of them.

ferrite
08-28-2012, 07:09 PM
Cursed Item: Ring of Recklessness

Item Description: This ring compels the wearer to behave erratically, as such the wearer gains the feat Evasion. The wearer is also unable to concentrate or focus for any length of time, and takes a -3 penalty to caster level and a -20 penalty to all concentration checks. The wearer is considered uncentered while wearing the ring. In addition, the wearer has difficulty in remembering how to resist other spells and effects, and takes a -10 penalty on all Fortitude and Will saves, and automatically fails ALL saves on a natural roll of 1 or 2. The curse on this ring is powerful and can only be removed by a Remove Curse spell of caster level 30 or higher, or by a special cleansing ritual performed by a Silver Flame priest for 50,000 platinum. The ring is destroyed in the process.

This would be an appropriate balance if you want evasion on a ring.

FestusHood
08-28-2012, 09:04 PM
Ring of Rabid Roguishness

Grants improved evasion, and the wearer gains full sneak attack damage as if he were a pure rogue.

ML 20 umd 0 class restricted: rogue

GeneralDiomedes
08-28-2012, 09:08 PM
I assume you are getting at nerfing evasion, such as reducing evasion to taking 25% damage on a save, and improved to operate like evasion?

Ilindith
08-28-2012, 10:06 PM
Do it. Make the Ring of Evasion. Throw the build community into disarray. Make it a rare drop in any chest. Make 'em work for it. Oh, and make it BtA.

Ring of Evasion (Min Level: 11)

Superior Evasion: This ring has a small air elemental bound to it. The wearer of this ring acts as if they had the Evasion feat. If the wearer of this ring already has Evasion, this ring grants Improved Evasion, and if the wearer of this ring already has Improved Evasion, they do not automatically fail their Reflex saves on a roll of 1.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a157/Althar89/ddo%20other/1346033968046.gif

Diyon
08-28-2012, 10:16 PM
Allowing Evasion, AC, and PRR to all be good on the same character goes back to the dark days of DDO.

Not just no.
Hell No.

Sooo, my no ship buffs, self buffed only (completely sustainable), pure druid shadow dancer, with 75 AC (registers as 52% miss chance on average at lvl25), permablur (very often displacement or 50% through blindness), 51 PRR (26.07% reduction), and evasion, has brought back the dark days of DDO?

EDIT: Oh! Forgot, and 7% dodge, but that's planned to be at least 11%.

FestusHood
08-28-2012, 10:23 PM
Sooo, my no ship buffs, self buffed only (completely sustainable), pure druid shadow dancer, with 75 AC (registers as 52% miss chance on average at lvl25), permablur (very often displacement or 50% through blindness), 51 PRR (26.07% reduction), and evasion, has brought back the dark days of DDO?

Yes

sephiroth1084
08-28-2012, 11:16 PM
Yes, this might be a powerful ring. Most likely TOO powerful. I'm attempting to illustrate a point. Evasion is so powerful that many builds center around 2 levels in monk or rogue simply to receive the benefit of evasion.

The ring is a bad idea. I completely agree. But just as bad is an ability which is so tempting that in many instances, people will forego a mix of classes or a single class build. Many builds are useless. Many more builds are thought of as useless because they are missing a 'critical feat.' Evasion is one of those feats.You're not illustrating anything noteworthy here.

Yes, Evasion is powerful.
No, Evasion is not a necessity.


Yes, it is healthy to have Evasion acting as an incentive to multiclass, because it creates build diversity.
Is it healthy for it to be obtainable at level 2? Probably not, but it's not harmful, either. It ain't broke, so why are you trying (and failing) to fix it?

zarthak
08-28-2012, 11:50 PM
Ring of Rabid Roguishness

Grants improved evasion, and the wearer gains full sneak attack damage as if he were a pure rogue.

ML 20 umd 0 class restricted: rogue

i love it

HatsuharuZ
08-28-2012, 11:57 PM
...or weapons that give you weapon finesse?

Weapon Finesse is a feat that anyone can aquire if they have 13+ dexterity. Gaining Evasion requires someone to sacrifice something, one way or another. Also, weapon finesse works while the using is wearing heavy armor. :D

FestusHood
08-29-2012, 12:03 AM
Sooo, my no ship buffs, self buffed only (completely sustainable), pure druid shadow dancer, with 75 AC (registers as 52% miss chance on average at lvl25), permablur (very often displacement or 50% through blindness), 51 PRR (26.07% reduction), and evasion, has brought back the dark days of DDO?

EDIT: Oh! Forgot, and 7% dodge, but that's planned to be at least 11%.

I'm pretty ignorant about epic destinies, but how do you get that much prr with working evasion?

sirgog
08-29-2012, 12:08 AM
Don't see why this would be a big deal, honestly.

People splash 2 Monk for 2 combat feats, (sometimes) the ability to use stances, (sometimes) for enhancements and Evasion.
People splash 2 Rogue for Haste Boost 1, a sizeable amount of sneak attack damage, UMD, (sometimes) trapsmithing, (sometimes) +1 Dex enhancement, and Evasion.
And people take 9 levels in the Ranger class for... (I hate playing rangers so I'll shut up here)

The Seal of House Avithoul grants more iconic Rogue abilities than a ring of evasion, IMO. +8 To-Hit and +13 damage when sneak attacking is as iconic Rogue as you can get.

Uska
08-29-2012, 12:57 AM
...or weapons that give you weapon finesse?

I cant think of any those that are worth using long or maybe even ever over another available weapon a ring of evasion on the other hand would be a worthy replacement for a lot of other rings.

QuantumFX
08-29-2012, 02:10 AM
Superior Evasion: This ring has a small air elemental bound to it. The wearer of this ring acts as if they had the Evasion feat. If the wearer of this ring already has Evasion, this ring grants Improved Evasion, and if the wearer of this ring already has Improved Evasion, they do not automatically fail their Reflex saves on a roll of 1.

They should use this for the level 5 Shadowdancer passive ability.


I'm pretty ignorant about epic destinies, but how do you get that much prr with working evasion?

I don’t know how that guy did it. But my main’s druid incarnation (2 Rogue/18 Druid) had 70 PRR from Shield Mastery, Unyielding Sentinel, Natures Warrior and Bear form.

NexEverto
08-29-2012, 02:25 AM
Sure, do it. But every time you roll a successful reflex save whilst wearing it and take no damage because of Evasion, your party rolls 1d6 for every 6 members in group. Using the Epic Scroll Mechanic, the person(s) who's number comes up has a no save Mordenkainen's Disjunction cast on them, followed by a no save Trap the Soul or a no save Violet Prismatic Ray.

Or, hell, just make an item that does that every time you get hit, it doesn't have to be on a Ring of Evasion. Yes, I secretly am a mean person. Be thankful I'm just a community member and not the person that designs all your loot.

Loriac
08-29-2012, 02:59 AM
When I think of what Elminster is and how he is the blue print standard for 3E D20 and how one should make use of and take full advantage of multi classing to make a more well rounded and more deeply developed concept character and how there is even a sentiment of purism in DDOs community truly disgusts me.


Elminster as stat'd in the 3E FR campaign setting book was a complete joke (note I'm referring here to pre-Epic Handbook stats, and I'm not sure if he was changed later on to be better mechanically). If it wasn't for the fact that he's Ed Greenwood's Mary Sue, and he has a whole host of powers that are outside of the rules (i.e. available to players), he'd be the classic example of how *not* to multiclass. Any well-built character with equivalent levels to Elminster would roflstomp him in a fair fight where 3E rules were being followed.

3rd edition multiclassing was always beneficial for melee and almost a complete no-go for spellcasters. The root cause of this is that whilst the to-hit mechanism allows contribution to BAB from all your classes, spell casting level only comes from specific classes, and different classes don't mix unless explicitly created to do so. One way it may have been possible for it to work would have been to grant spell levels in a similar fashion to BAB, with melee classes getting the equivalent of 1/2 BAB and hybrid classes (such as bard, paladin, ranger etc) getting the equivalent of 3/4 BAB.

DDO builds reflect similar principles to PnP builds; in general, spellcasters should not multiclass (in PnP, the only worthwhile multiclasses were by using prestige classes which allowed you to maintain your spell power progression), and every level not taken in a spell casting class should be thoroughly scrutinized. This isn't as bad for melee characters, however the addition of the capstones means that for those classes with decent capstones (e.g. rogue), staying pure may be the better option.

To berate the DDO community for favoring pure builds is misplaced; in many cases in DDO, it is in fact mechanically better not to multiclass.

Diyon
08-29-2012, 06:59 AM
I'm pretty ignorant about epic destinies, but how do you get that much prr with working evasion?

Light armor- BAB 18
Large Heavy shield
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
Legendary Shield Mastery (t2 Sentinel ability)

Chai
08-29-2012, 07:57 AM
Don't see why this would be a big deal, honestly.

People splash 2 Monk for 2 combat feats, (sometimes) the ability to use stances, (sometimes) for enhancements and Evasion.
People splash 2 Rogue for Haste Boost 1, a sizeable amount of sneak attack damage, UMD, (sometimes) trapsmithing, (sometimes) +1 Dex enhancement, and Evasion.
And people take 9 levels in the Ranger class for... (I hate playing rangers so I'll shut up here)

The Seal of House Avithoul grants more iconic Rogue abilities than a ring of evasion, IMO. +8 To-Hit and +13 damage when sneak attacking is as iconic Rogue as you can get.

Evasion is the single biggest damage mitigation tool in the game to get, bar none. Of course those building for it have to have the save to back it up, but its still the best damage mitigation tool in the game. People who might try to argue PRR or DR is better, think about this - when those priestesses cometfall you and you evade, take zero damage, AND the melee mobs cant catch up with you as well. If you didnt evade and were knocked down, now youre surrounded by melee mobs AND taking spell damage.

Evasion is not necessarily iconic rogue. Its an iconic power build tool that just happens to be able to be obtained easily with a 2 rogue splash.

I think this game needs to be less monte haul, not more. Let people design it in as a build choice, not simply obtained by farming some gear item.

Certon
08-29-2012, 10:02 AM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a157/Althar89/ddo%20other/1346033968046.gif

BAHAHA! That is the best NO I've ever seen. :)

bigolbear
08-29-2012, 10:28 AM
They're not gonna do that. Not ever.

Welcome to thread #10,791 that attempts to bring evasion into the game for non-evasion classes.

Its not gonna be an item enchantment.
Its not gonna be a set bonus.
Its not gonna be a potion or consumable.
Its not gonna be an enhancement.
Its not gonna be an epic ability.
Its not gonna happen at all. Period.

There is a rather large pile where these sad threads eventually wind up.


Its not gonna be an item enchantment.
Its not gonna be a set bonus.
Its not gonna be a potion or consumable.
- agreed for low lvl stuff, but with the monty haul nature of ddo dont bet on it.
Its not gonna be an enhancement.
- definately dont bet on it, my money is on artis getting it as one of their enhancements come the enhancement pass, probly only vs traps tho.
Its not gonna be an epic ability.
- shadow dancer. it already is.
Its not gonna happen at all. Period.
-it already has.

danzig138
08-29-2012, 12:08 PM
I think it's a great idea. I mean, not your version. Your version is dumb. I mean this version (from the books):

Evasion
This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Forge Ring, jump; Price 25,000 gp.

Wah to it breaking some builds.

More items from the actual game should be introduced to DDO.

Machination
08-29-2012, 12:31 PM
You will probably have better luck asking for a return to pre-Mod 4 Patch 3 when evasion worked in heavy and med armor. Yeah, ask for that and the ring, heck like papa always said "you don't get what you don't ask for".


Do it. Make the Ring of Evasion. Throw the build community into disarray. Make it a rare drop in any chest. Make 'em work for it. Oh, and make it BtA.

Ring of Evasion (Min Level: 11)

Superior Evasion: This ring has a small air elemental bound to it. The wearer of this ring acts as if they had the Evasion feat. If the wearer of this ring already has Evasion, this ring grants Improved Evasion, and if the wearer of this ring already has Improved Evasion, they do not automatically fail their Reflex saves on a roll of 1.

Talias006
08-29-2012, 05:34 PM
This ring sounds really cheezy.

Actually, I feel any of the items that are granting feats in the game are kind of cheezy. I'm thinking of the * proficiency ones. Grant it, items which are that item itself is not so bad, like the shields, but stuff like the wind howler bracers granting longbow/shortbow proficency strike me as really cheezy.


...or weapons that give you weapon finesse?

Wind Howler Bracers give you the equivalent of weapon feats, but just for Longbows and Shortbows.
An incremental increase from Simple weapon prof's, unless you're an Elf and then get it anyways.

Weapon Finesse is a decent feat if you have the Dex for it, if not and you use a weapon with that feat gained it doesn't offer that big of a bonus.
Either way, not a big deal.

And, as has been mentioned already, those feats work while wearing Medium or Heavy Armors.


Cursed Item: Ring of Recklessness

Item Description: This ring compels the wearer to behave erratically, as such the wearer gains the feat Evasion. The wearer is also unable to concentrate or focus for any length of time, and takes a -3 penalty to caster level and a -20 penalty to all concentration checks. The wearer is considered uncentered while wearing the ring. In addition, the wearer has difficulty in remembering how to resist other spells and effects, and takes a -10 penalty on all Fortitude and Will saves, and automatically fails ALL saves on a natural roll of 1 or 2. The curse on this ring is powerful and can only be removed by a Remove Curse spell of caster level 30 or higher, or by a special cleansing ritual performed by a Silver Flame priest for 50,000 platinum. The ring is destroyed in the process.

This would be an appropriate balance if you want evasion on a ring.

I like this version.
The penalties are a little on the heavy handed, but it's a better starting point.


Ring of Rabid Roguishness

Grants improved evasion, and the wearer gains full sneak attack damage as if he were a pure rogue.

ML 20 umd 0 class restricted: rogue

Too good, no penalties.
Even an "Epic" ring should offer something to offset that big of an increase in potential.


Sooo, my no ship buffs, self buffed only (completely sustainable), pure druid shadow dancer, with 75 AC (registers as 52% miss chance on average at lvl25), permablur (very often displacement or 50% through blindness), 51 PRR (26.07% reduction), and evasion, has brought back the dark days of DDO?

EDIT: Oh! Forgot, and 7% dodge, but that's planned to be at least 11%.


Light armor- BAB 18
Large Heavy shield
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
Legendary Shield Mastery (t2 Sentinel ability)

Congratulations!
That is done not through a simple item that granted you the benefits, but you had to *gasp* work hard and sacrifice some things to get them.

The point is, this ring should not be available without some serious detriment to the character.
It is a powerful feat that others have to sacrifice and splash either 2 rogue or 2 monk to acquire.

sirgog
08-29-2012, 05:57 PM
Evasion is the single biggest damage mitigation tool in the game to get, bar none. Of course those building for it have to have the save to back it up, but its still the best damage mitigation tool in the game. People who might try to argue PRR or DR is better, think about this - when those priestesses cometfall you and you evade, take zero damage, AND the melee mobs cant catch up with you as well. If you didnt evade and were knocked down, now youre surrounded by melee mobs AND taking spell damage.

Evasion is not necessarily iconic rogue. Its an iconic power build tool that just happens to be able to be obtained easily with a 2 rogue splash.

I think this game needs to be less monte haul, not more. Let people design it in as a build choice, not simply obtained by farming some gear item.

Cometfall's trip cares only about your Reflex save. The difference between taking 150 damage on a failed save and no damage isn't all that bad if you have the PRR to survive the melee hits you are now taking.

I build for decent Reflex saves nowadays (hell my FVS has over 40 selfbuffed), but I don't care about Evasion because the difference between an evasive save on Cometfall and a non-evasive save on a Cometfall is not really much at all.

noinfo
08-29-2012, 06:04 PM
Do it. Make the Ring of Evasion. Throw the build community into disarray. Make it a rare drop in any chest. Make 'em work for it. Oh, and make it BtA.

Ring of Evasion (Min Level: 11)

Superior Evasion: This ring has a small air elemental bound to it. The wearer of this ring acts as if they had the Evasion feat. If the wearer of this ring already has Evasion, this ring grants Improved Evasion, and if the wearer of this ring already has Improved Evasion, they do not automatically fail their Reflex saves on a roll of 1.

ML is far too low.

And to be honest I think its easier to be able to fit in a splash for evasion then the gear slot at end game on a non evasion based toon that will probably have a relatively low reflex save anyway.

Don't think it would be as game breaking as many would suggest, probably better as a raid item though.

noinfo
08-29-2012, 06:22 PM
The ring has no armor restrictions for use in PnP, so it would actually still work. I can't imagine a capped character giving up those 3 equipment slots for evasion though.

The ring itself does not have to have the restrictions though since the feat itself does.

donfilibuster
09-08-2012, 04:14 PM
All this goes to show that we are too invested in making builds, not surprisingly for a MMO.
Classes in D&D are supposed to be fairly versatile, not forcing you to take or excel in one of the MMO roles.

After all, the roles are player driven optimization, but on questing you find trouble and have to pull all the tricks.
Thus a cleric can dps, a rogue nuke with wands, a fighter range and wizard tank, if there's dire need.
Everyone gets some kind of AC option, which isn't really limited to high tank builds.

You can say DDO is not PnP but to draw comparisons one has to look at the full picture.
For example DDO have for long lacked AC options, now we have some, but can still expand into non-core things like greater mage armor.
Epic destinies move a bit towards that versatility while beyond heroic levels.

Naturally in PnP things are balanced vs. the encounter, so items like fortification can be countered by the mobs.
This is missing in DDO, there's no area dispel that can supress your items, which is the natural counter to perma-buffs.
Furthermore players already voice angrily against continual dispels and mordenkainen disfunction being used against them.

The old debate about perma-fort goes to the bin if the first shaman you met can dispel you.
Point of all this is, where rings of evasion exist, items are not king.




Evasion
This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Forge Ring, jump; Price 25,000 gp.

Here's the link, for reference: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#evasion


The ring itself does not have to have the restrictions though since the feat itself does.
This is correct, when it says evasion should be the same as the feat.