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mobrien316
08-28-2012, 07:40 AM
I know this has been suggested before, but I would like the devs to revisit the idea if possible:

Change the health bar on pale masters (in undead form) from red to something else. Purple, black, green - I don't really care as long as my cleric can see it is not red.


In an elite Shroud this weekend I got blamed for a wipe after the two wizards went down at the start of Part 4. They had been undead through parts 1, 2, and 3, but both decided not to switch to undead form for part 4. I had been asked at the beginning, when the group was filling, if I could solo heal and I said yes (I have done it before successfully on elite.) Both wizards died at the start of part 4 (before Harry even showed up) and both started screaming at me that I hadn't healed them. I asked why they didn't go into undead form and the both said "everyone knows" you don't use undead form in part 4 or 5 because of the light damage. I have never heard of that before and I don't think it's true.

Anyway, instead of regrouping and getting to it everyone starts whining at me for claiming I could solo heal when I can't. The rest of the party wipes (even though we should have been able to do it, even without the two wizards) and several people thank me for wasting their time...

So... A change in the health bar from red to purple, black, or whatever would be appreciated.

Zaragoss
08-28-2012, 07:48 AM
sounds good it will help.

pie2655
08-28-2012, 07:50 AM
It is your fault, you should have asked if they were in undead form!
/not signed enough ez buttons in game already!

Yazston_the_Invoker
08-28-2012, 08:02 AM
I completely agree with this idea...would save me from wasting heals when someone's in undead form, and would save me the couple seconds it takes for me to ask when I see a PM's health bar dropping quickly.

Truga
08-28-2012, 08:11 AM
I have never heard of that before and I don't think it's true.
This is, indeed, male bovine dung. You should have called them out there and then. I ran 40 shrouds on my wiz, most as a PM. I've never ever died to light damage in there. I never dropped form either.

So... A change in the health bar from red to purple, black, or whatever would be appreciated.
Yes.

Syllph
08-28-2012, 08:13 AM
I'd never thought about it till you wrote this, but yeah so many groups first question they ask the wizard: Are you PM or not?

The different color would be great.

Miow
08-28-2012, 08:23 AM
What an awesome idea sir, btw those two casters were gimp.

Rusty_Can
08-28-2012, 08:47 AM
No no no ..... the game is clearly evolving in a completely different direction!

After the introduction of Judgment, heroic divine casters should be able to have fun too: can I please nuke Pale Masters in undead form with my healing spells? *grins*




Change the health bar on pale masters (in undead form) from red to something else. Purple, black, green - I don't really care as long as my cleric can see it is not red.


Aye, signed.

CaptainSpacePony
08-28-2012, 09:56 AM
What an awesome idea sir, btw those two casters were gimp.

/signed

madmaxhunter
08-28-2012, 10:07 AM
It is your fault, you should have asked if they were in undead form!
/not signed enough ez buttons in game already!

Where is the "ez button" in the request? Easy buttons make gameplay easier, this would just clarify the state the PMs are currently in.

The first part I'm guessing is a failed attempt at humor.

/signed.

Green gets my vote.

Red for blood
Green for oxygen depleted ichor blood.

Jandric
08-28-2012, 10:35 AM
It is your fault, you should have asked if they were in undead form!
/not signed enough ez buttons in game already!

If they had been in form for the entire raid and then decided to change, it was the PMs job to make sure the cleric knew they were out of form. The change is a neat idea, but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

Talon_Moonshadow
08-28-2012, 10:52 AM
Not needed. (but doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice)


...and it is NOT the Cleric's fault.

Everyone needs to take responsibility to keep themselves alive.

Raids may be different,... (but people need to pay attention even then)

but a Pale Master who suddenly decides to not be undead and expects you to keep them up without telling you..... is the one at fault.

Talon_Moonshadow
08-28-2012, 10:53 AM
If they had been in form for the entire raid and then decided to change, it was the PMs job to make sure the cleric knew they were out of form. The change is a neat idea, but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

Lol.... this is soooo true.. lol :cool:


Edit: Hope you don't mind, I just made this my sig!

Cause seriously.... every problem I see in DDO comes down to just about this! lol

Ancient
08-28-2012, 10:57 AM
Red for blood
Green for oxygen depleted ichor blood.
/signed

It would also help when trying to get a dead palemaster back into the battle. Right after you rez them, do you heal or harm? Having a color indicator to know when they change forms would be very helpful.

psteen1
08-28-2012, 11:07 AM
It is your fault, you should have asked if they were in undead form!
/not signed enough ez buttons in game already!

this post is epic fail.

or a lame joke, I can't tell.

Mastikator
08-28-2012, 11:44 AM
"everyone knows" you don't use undead form in part 4 or 5 because of the light damage.

Euhm... light damage in part 4? No devils AFAIK use light, and the healer gnolls don't even cast offensive spells AFAIK.

Anyway, /signed on undead getting a different color from the living. Living "powered" by positive = red bar, undead powered by negative = some other color, maybe dark purple.

Jandric
08-28-2012, 12:24 PM
Lol.... this is soooo true.. lol :cool:


Edit: Hope you don't mind, I just made this my sig!

Cause seriously.... every problem I see in DDO comes down to just about this! lol

Awesome :D I don't mind in the least...

Such755
08-28-2012, 12:45 PM
Sounds good.
/Signed

Silverwren
08-28-2012, 12:50 PM
It is your fault, you should have asked if they were in undead form!
/not signed enough ez buttons in game already!

It IS your fault. Don't you know that ANY party wipe is ALWAYS the healers fault? It can't possibly be the fault of an uberleet whinemaster (or two)! :rolleyes:

Sheesh!

Opinions like pie's are one of the reasons this game is lacking in healers.

Oh, and /signed!

Ugumagre
08-28-2012, 12:53 PM
this post is epic fail.

or a lame joke, I can't tell.

pie2655 is quite trying to troll anywhere, anytime. And it is quite unoriginal at it, so just don´t bother.

And you will see, he will threaten to report me and so on, like in other posts.

twigzz
08-28-2012, 01:15 PM
pie2655 is quite trying to troll anywhere, anytime. And it is quite unoriginal at it, so just don´t bother.

And you will see, he will threaten to report me and so on, like in other posts.

Yep, he had an easy ride to my ignore list long ago.


/sighed OP!

HeadbustaJones
08-28-2012, 01:38 PM
Run two healers (cleric and FVS) on raids somewhat regularly, and this would help greatly as I am deaf and can't hear voice chat - - and apparently some of the PMs in the PUGs I've healed find it inconvenient to type out that they are dropping form...

/signed

BlueSilence
08-28-2012, 02:05 PM
(...) but a Pale Master who suddenly decides to not be undead and expects you to keep them up without telling you..... is the one at fault.

When unsure, I ask: "Should I stay in undead form or out of it?" Sometimes I get no reply so I try to use my best judgement... but it ends killing me anyways.

I like the idea.

/signed

2x4
08-28-2012, 02:38 PM
Great idea I vote that it gets added to U16

Havok.cry
08-28-2012, 03:20 PM
I think they should do this.

As to the two wizards, the only light damage that might be there in pt 4 is the not so friendly judgements. If they were newish and uninformed, they may have been burned by them and been told not to be in form due to that.

If its not that, then idiocy is the only resonable explantion I can think of.

mwgarn
08-28-2012, 03:32 PM
I'll /sign this, I wouldn't mind a dark green, not black thou or purple.. Or pink or anything to crazy.. Leave thoughs colors to the warfordge

I have never died in part 4 or 5 unless it was a total party wipe and I'm always in undead form in the shroud.. And never am the first to go down normally one of the last with the cleric and fvs or crazy healing amp heal scroll UMDing melee..

Oh how about dark gry with white souls swirling around in it, think Turbine could do something like at?

Gkar
08-28-2012, 03:33 PM
Wait, people heal the casters in S4? I always figured if you weren't standing in the melee circle you were on your own.

Drekisen
08-28-2012, 03:35 PM
/signed

good idea OP :D

techwench
08-28-2012, 03:40 PM
/signed

I dig it....purple or even gray would be nice. OR, actually, nything that's NOT red...or close to red.

twigzz
08-28-2012, 03:45 PM
Wait, people heal the casters in S4? I always figured if you weren't standing in the melee circle you were on your own.


That's what I thought too! :|

fyrst.grok
08-28-2012, 03:49 PM
I vote for darker red or purple, so the red-green color blinds have a chance too :)

bward76
08-28-2012, 04:06 PM
/signed

kilagan800
08-30-2012, 04:33 PM
/signed

I agree with the op. I have a couple second life Pale Masters and I ALWAYS let the healer know when I'm in undead form and when I'm not. It's the PM's obligation to inform the healer, especially in a raid. The healer shouldn't have to keep asking if you are or are not in undead form! And I also agree that changing the bar from red to purple would certainly help the healer keep tabs of who's in undead form.

It just makes sense that the healer should be able to note who's in undead form and when.

Daemoneyes
09-01-2012, 01:07 PM
Signed

its something they should have added a long time

Ryan220
09-01-2012, 01:41 PM
It is your fault, you should have asked if they were in undead form!
/not signed enough ez buttons in game already!


You're kidding surely?

Divines have a rough time of it as it is without this kind of ludicrous statement.


To the OP - I always assume a NON WF Wiz is in form. Its up to them to tell me if theyre not. Not your fault


/signed bar colour change

ZeebaNeighba
09-01-2012, 03:38 PM
I like that idea too. Especially since I play a bard healer so much, and pale masters in form are completely on their own then since I don't get harm.

I don't think green should be used since a lot of people can't tell that from red, and black is the color of the empty space on the bar. Obviously don't use anything too close to red, blue or yellow, then everything else should be fine. Purple, gray, brown, whatever.

Failedlegend
09-01-2012, 03:46 PM
Where is the "ez button" in the request? Easy buttons make gameplay easier, this would just clarify the state the PMs are currently in.

The first part I'm guessing is a failed attempt at humor.

/signed.

Green gets my vote.

Red for blood
Green for oxygen depleted ichor blood.

I'd prefer purple actually, green should be reserved for poison :D

varusso
09-01-2012, 03:53 PM
I know this has been suggested before, but I would like the devs to revisit the idea if possible:

Change the health bar on pale masters (in undead form) from red to something else. Purple, black, green - I don't really care as long as my cleric can see it is not red.


In an elite Shroud this weekend I got blamed for a wipe after the two wizards went down at the start of Part 4. They had been undead through parts 1, 2, and 3, but both decided not to switch to undead form for part 4. I had been asked at the beginning, when the group was filling, if I could solo heal and I said yes (I have done it before successfully on elite.) Both wizards died at the start of part 4 (before Harry even showed up) and both started screaming at me that I hadn't healed them. I asked why they didn't go into undead form and the both said "everyone knows" you don't use undead form in part 4 or 5 because of the light damage. I have never heard of that before and I don't think it's true.

Anyway, instead of regrouping and getting to it everyone starts whining at me for claiming I could solo heal when I can't. The rest of the party wipes (even though we should have been able to do it, even without the two wizards) and several people thank me for wasting their time...

So... A change in the health bar from red to purple, black, or whatever would be appreciated.

Theres light damage in Shroud? I play PMs *ALOT* and I have NEVER been hit with light damage. Certainly not from Harry or any of his minions. This is the first time I have heard of something that "everyone knows" a PM should do. *ANY* time a known PM is going to drop form and rely on the healer, its up to THEM to speak up and say so. That *IS* something "everyone knows". Whats more, the PMs should be mobile, able to avoid the majority of the incoming damage. The healer(s) have enough to do without watching every individual bar scattered across the room. If you arent in the melee knot in the middle, you better be looking after your own HP. That includes rangers, sorcs, wizzies, arties, or anyone else who might be fighting from the fringe. The PMs (and apparently the rest of your group) really needs to learn how to play, apparently.. If they wiped because they lost the arcanes, then they didnt bring enough DPS themselves and were counting on coasting through while the wizzies did all the work. Not at all acceptable in an Elite run.

All that being said, I support the request for some sort of call-out on ANY toon that receives reduced (or no) healing from positive energy, due to a spec or race penalty (IE: WF, PM, etc).

EDIT: The only thing I can think of is maybe the wizzies were referring to the ED that is bugged and killing PMs too -- but if the healer is smacktard enough to use that knowing there are PMs in the crowd, then they are probably not going to be healing them either, so whats the difference?

countfitz
09-01-2012, 04:00 PM
It is your fault, you should have asked if they were in undead form!
/not signed enough ez buttons in game already!

I'm pretty sure we're all failing a sarcasm check on this one, nobody is really this stupid. (If that wasn't sarcasm or a troll, then I apologize for calling you stupid. You're opinion is simply wrong.)

Anyway, as we all know it's not the clerics responsibility to ask wizzies if they're undead, it's wizzies responsibiliity to tell clerics which they are.

Second, obviously there is a difference in "easy buttons" for different classes being acceptable in the game. Making healing parties easier is a GOOD thing, it will make healing PUGs more fun for divines who want to play the game and not babysit.

It's why I play a cleric and not a fvs. Yeah, FvS can be better... but clerics auto heal. Aura, and do whatever you want for the next 1:30, then aura, then do whatever for the next 1:30... you get the picture.

So knowing who to heal is an easy button, which makes healing parties easier, and therefore more enjoyable for divines, therefore more likely for divines to do more than solo, therefore improving the game for everyone else.

countfitz
09-01-2012, 04:03 PM
Oh, and obviously,

/signed.

I'd like purple. That seems like a lich color to me. I don't think black would look good on a screen, and green seems more like ectoplasm, ghostly, icky. Which could work I guess.

Barazon
09-01-2012, 05:03 PM
It's not your responsibility to ask every 30 seconds whether a PM has dropped form or not, it is their responsibility to tell you. I see no reason to drop undead form for part 4 or 5, I certainly never do. The only lieutenant that might do light damage is the gnoll, and he's more likely to cast blade barrier than any light damage. Even if he does, there's an easy solution: get aggro from something else.

Failedlegend
09-01-2012, 05:29 PM
It's not your responsibility to ask every 30 seconds whether a PM has dropped form or not, it is their responsibility to tell you. I see no reason to drop undead form for part 4 or 5, I certainly never do. The only lieutenant that might do light damage is the gnoll, and he's more likely to cast blade barrier than any light damage. Even if he does, there's an easy solution: get aggro from something else.

Thats true but you wouldn't believe the amount of raid groups that put pressure on PMs to drop form so over time alot of players seem to think they have to.

varusso
09-02-2012, 07:31 AM
Thats true but you wouldn't believe the amount of raid groups that put pressure on PMs to drop form so over time alot of players seem to think they have to.
Who are YOU running with? I have *never* been in any group at all -- raid or otherwise -- where the PM (usually me) was "pressured" in any way to drop form. It is, in fact, the exact opposite -- most groups are quite content to have a caster that can do their job and NOT need a babysitter. The only exception is when there is a gob of light damage in a quest -- at most that usually results in a warning for the PM (if they are new to the class or the quest) to be more cautious.

MRMechMan
09-02-2012, 07:58 AM
When on a fvs/clr ignore any wizard or sorcs HP bar unless there is a very good reason that they would need healing (palemaster out of form in running with the devils, you see the sorc tripped/stunned, etc).


Assume that a wizard in particular is either:

fleshie and a palemaster (can't heal em)
or
WF and an archmage (they can heal themselves).

Any arcane that cannot self heal needs to reroll, straight up.

If they can't self heal that doesn't guarantee that they are a waste of a party spot, but 9 times out of 10 they will be.

msdesign
09-02-2012, 08:43 AM
Agreed on his idea.

I usually ask people who does not need healing just before we start a quest, and I even like to heal WF players now and then when they are busy to self-heal. About undead wizzys, I can throw them an inflict wounds if needed, and if I have the right timing to turn myself to them and get close enough. I can heal pretty much everybody, but I will have my priorities in a quest / raid turned to tanks and whoever is getting 1 on 1 aggro.

Anyway, I think a dark red, wine color, could be good for the undead players HP bars. Other colors could be distracting and too much eye-catching. I think WF can remain as they are, because they can be healed and repaired anyway.

mobrien316
09-02-2012, 08:52 AM
Any arcane that cannot self heal needs to reroll, straight up.

I've seen this sentiment posted quite often about a lot of class ("any [insert class here] that can't self heal is gimp/should reroll/should l2p/etc...") and I always disagree.

If you are a human wizard archmage enchanter (as I was in a past life) and you cannot effectively self heal, I don't see that as a problem at all. If you can't self heal and your DC's are so low you can't charm/dance/hold anything, then you are a drain on the party. If you can't effectively self heal and you are charming/dancing/holding everything, how are you a drain on the party? Because the healer has to heal you every now and then?

For most builds, if you want to build an effective self-healer, you have to compromise other places. And by "effective" I mean getting your UMD to the point where you can scroll heal yourself or others. Everyone can chug pots. I would rather have an enchanter archmage with great enchantment DC's who can't self heal than one who has decent DC's but can UMD heal scrolls.

Part of this "everyone must be able to self heal or they should reroll" philosophy is due to the min-max style of play. Why make an arcane anything but warforged? Why make a fleshie wizard anything but a PM? Why do anything but max your main stat, max or nearly max CON, and dump everything else? If you like playing that way, there's certainly nothing wrong with it, but a lot of people like to play a bit more like they did with their characters in PnP.

I think any character that can't self-heal, AND can't do anything else effectively, is gimp and should reroll. If they can't self-heal, but they can do other things that help the party, they are just fine.

MRMechMan
09-02-2012, 09:12 AM
If you are a human wizard archmage enchanter (as I was in a past life) and you cannot effectively self heal, I don't see that as a problem at all. If you can't self heal and your DC's are so low you can't charm/dance/hold anything, then you are a drain on the party. If you can't effectively self heal and you are charming/dancing/holding everything, how are you a drain on the party? Because the healer has to heal you every now and then?

For most builds, if you want to build an effective self-healer, you have to compromise other places. And by "effective" I mean getting your UMD to the point where you can scroll heal yourself or others. Everyone can chug pots. I would rather have an enchanter archmage with great enchantment DC's who can't self heal than one who has decent DC's but can UMD heal scrolls.

Part of this "everyone must be able to self heal or they should reroll" philosophy is due to the min-max style of play. Why make an arcane anything but warforged? Why make a fleshie wizard anything but a PM? Why do anything but max your main stat, max or nearly max CON, and dump everything else? If you like playing that way, there's certainly nothing wrong with it, but a lot of people like to play a bit more like they did with their characters in PnP.

I think any character that can't self-heal, AND can't do anything else effectively, is gimp and should reroll. If they can't self-heal, but they can do other things that help the party, they are just fine.

Building a sorc or a wizard to self heal is incredibly easy and takes nothing away from anything else the class can do.

It isn't a problem, so long as the cleric/favored soul/whoever you somehow enlist to scroll heal you is fine with it. That is very rare, as most healers realize that their arcane should be self sufficient. You had the choice to be incredible as an arcane and you chose to be merely OK.

This isn't comparing DCs. DCs and self healing are in no way mutually exclusive.

If you are a wizard or sorc chugging cure serious pots at mid/high levels, I pity the choices you have made.

It isn't about min/maxing. It is about making the very, very obvious decision to build for self healing on an arcane.

So...

I don't think palemasters should get a different colored HP bar because it is not necessary in any way and if a wizard gets butthurt because they didn't get heals...that is their own RL IQ check they failed when they rolled the character. Sounds harsh but, hey, why make changes that can very easily be solved by the players in question?

SO, SO SOOOO much other stuff is ACTUALLY broken in this game. If it isn't broken, PLEASE, devs, don't try and fix it!!!

I cannot think of a single situation that this would help that could not be otherwise be resolved in a handful of seconds of quick communication, and that situation is FAR from common to begin with in the first place.

I've played palemasters, I've played clr/fvs, and it has never been an issue in the slightest.

/not signed.

msdesign
09-02-2012, 09:39 AM
Building a sorc or a wizard to self heal is incredibly easy and takes nothing away from anything else the class can do.
/not signed.

My main is a sorc, currently lvl 21 TRd. Only on this 2nd life I started to raise UMD early on first levels until my last level up, to be able to use cure wounds wands, but the max I can get is to use a light wounds wand. I can use Cure Med Wounds wand, but not certain of that. So I'm better served with pots: they restore more HP, and I don't need to switch weapon each time I want to self heal. If you have special UMD items, good for you. Other people may not have the opportunity to get them. Remember DDO is full of P2P areas where normal people can't go. Have any tips on improving UMD using ONLY F2P features? Feel free to post them, I would love to read them.

Problem here, is people like you tend to make others have YOUR gameplay style. Wich is just ridiculous. You do what you want on your toon, I do what I like on my toon. This is a Multiplayer game. Multi = several players at once. So, I don't care to solo whatever. I like to play with other players, guildies or puggers, I don't care to boast "I can solo Shroud, gth out of my face" type of things. I'm here for the fun. If I want to do some slayers alone, I can take a hire.

And let me tell you, I've played lots of epics with my guildies and puggers without having a single problem about healing.

And no, my sorc is NOT WF. Its a squishy elf that makes more dmg per sec than most tanks I've seen.

mobrien316
09-02-2012, 10:28 AM
Building a sorc or a wizard to self heal is incredibly easy and takes nothing away from anything else the class can do.

It isn't a problem, so long as the cleric/favored soul/whoever you somehow enlist to scroll heal you is fine with it. That is very rare, as most healers realize that their arcane should be self sufficient. You had the choice to be incredible as an arcane and you chose to be merely OK.

This isn't comparing DCs. DCs and self healing are in no way mutually exclusive.

If you are a wizard or sorc chugging cure serious pots at mid/high levels, I pity the choices you have made.

It isn't about min/maxing. It is about making the very, very obvious decision to build for self healing on an arcane.


Other than making an enchanter archmage a warforged, how is it incredibly easy to build a human wizard so he can effectively self heal?

I'm certainly not trying to say it cannot be done, because it can, but what is this "incredibly easy" method of which you speak?

The reason I mentioned DC's was as an example of what could suffer if you wanted to boost UMD on a human wizard. If you want to boost CON at character creation, or use level up boosts to increase it, INT is likely to suffer, which adversely affects your DC's.

I certainly don't see any non-warforged arcane as "merely OK". If you only have fun playing WF arcanes, that's nice. It doesn't make all non-WF arcanes gimp.

Musouka
09-02-2012, 11:02 AM
Having a FvS that does 2 roles, one being healer, I would have to say that this would be an awesome addition.

/signed

Wipey
09-02-2012, 11:22 AM
Have any tips on improving UMD using ONLY F2P features? Feel free to post them, I would love to read them.

12+ charisma assuming minimum of 18 base, 5 levels, 2 tome, 3 sorc, 6 item
11 ranks
4 gh
2 good luck
3 persuasion
3 skill focus
35

With epic levels, Spyglass, or that u13 umd stick it should be much easier.
I can understand being newbie or 1st lifer but tr ? No excuse and I find hard to believe someone would tr without any p2p content ( charisma item from Shroud or Ebig top for example ) .

Did necro 4 elites last week with some lvl 16 ish blitz scrolling group.

D'arc_Tangent
09-02-2012, 11:49 AM
As a matter of overcoming the game's limitations (there are more than a few), I just take matters into my own hands to improve my role to heal everyone.

I'm in the habit of carrying a cure light wounds wand that I whip at the wizards to see if their hp bar gains health. If they do, I know my sp-powered heals won't be wasted. If they don't, then I throw Harm on them.

Enoach
09-02-2012, 12:00 PM
I know this has been suggested before, but I would like the devs to revisit the idea if possible:

Change the health bar on pale masters (in undead form) from red to something else. Purple, black, green - I don't really care as long as my cleric can see it is not red.


In an elite Shroud this weekend I got blamed for a wipe after the two wizards went down at the start of Part 4. They had been undead through parts 1, 2, and 3, but both decided not to switch to undead form for part 4. I had been asked at the beginning, when the group was filling, if I could solo heal and I said yes (I have done it before successfully on elite.) Both wizards died at the start of part 4 (before Harry even showed up) and both started screaming at me that I hadn't healed them. I asked why they didn't go into undead form and the both said "everyone knows" you don't use undead form in part 4 or 5 because of the light damage. I have never heard of that before and I don't think it's true.

Anyway, instead of regrouping and getting to it everyone starts whining at me for claiming I could solo heal when I can't. The rest of the party wipes (even though we should have been able to do it, even without the two wizards) and several people thank me for wasting their time...

So... A change in the health bar from red to purple, black, or whatever would be appreciated.

My take on this story...

Group forms with only one Character that has a strong Healing ability. This character is asked if they can handle the responsibility of being not only the Primary healing source, but to do it without a strong backup. Said Character agrees.

Phase 1 to 3 go off without a hitch (or at least no hitches mentioned)

Phase 4 - 2 Characters change the parameters of how they decided to play - Previously for 3 phases were autonomous characters providing their own source of healing. During the course of the Opening part of phase 4 (Pre Harry) they succumb to mortal wounds attributed to either Devil/Orthon/Cat/Blades -
This leaves the questions

Did the Only healer in the group know that they would need help? (the Answer from the OP is NO they did not know) Were they in range of the Healer? (Its all fine and dandy to blame someone, but if your out of range who exactly is at fault)
Was the damage sustained over long periods of time, or done in 1 to 2 quick unavoidable shots? (As good as a healer is very few can stop a 1 shot kill)

Party continues without the two casters, still is killed off.

Party turns on the Healer
-----------------------------------
As far as not being in PM form for part 4 and 5 - I've been doing it since PM was an available option, I've never had trouble with light damage - in fact I believe the only light damage that is in part 4 and 5 comes from party members. With Judgment still being a problem, the best way to avoid it, is to be in form and as far away as you can be from infected devils.

There are few quests where I stay out of form for part or most of the quest. There are none that I don't go into form at all.

However, OP you must admit that there was a problem with your ability to solo heal the raid (and I'm talking the pack of Melee in the center, not the rim folks), unless of course we are talking the party wipe occurred in round 3+. If it took longer than 2 rounds than the onus is on the DPS available to the party.

mobrien316
09-02-2012, 12:32 PM
However, OP you must admit that there was a problem with your ability to solo heal the raid (and I'm talking the pack of Melee in the center, not the rim folks), unless of course we are talking the party wipe occurred in round 3+. If it took longer than 2 rounds than the onus is on the DPS available to the party.

I don't think there was a problem with my ability to solo heal. I've solo healed elite Shroud before.

When the two wizards went down at the start of part 4, mostly everyone stopped when the leader began complaining and saying it was a wipe. When Harry dropped, I think only two people went to the center to melee him.

The problem, as I see, was the two wizards (who did take the time to tell me they were undead while we were waiting to go into part 1, but did not bother to tell me they would not be undead when we got to part 4) and the leader who was far too quick to call it a wipe. With everyone but me, a rogue, and a fighter standing around moaning and groaning in part 4, the leader's prediction of a wipe was inevitably proven correct. It didn't have to be.

goodoldxelos
09-02-2012, 04:07 PM
I know this has been suggested before, but I would like the devs to revisit the idea if possible:

Change the health bar on pale masters (in undead form) from red to something else. Purple, black, green - I don't really care as long as my cleric can see it is not red.


In an elite Shroud this weekend I got blamed for a wipe after the two wizards went down at the start of Part 4. They had been undead through parts 1, 2, and 3, but both decided not to switch to undead form for part 4. I had been asked at the beginning, when the group was filling, if I could solo heal and I said yes (I have done it before successfully on elite.) Both wizards died at the start of part 4 (before Harry even showed up) and both started screaming at me that I hadn't healed them. I asked why they didn't go into undead form and the both said "everyone knows" you don't use undead form in part 4 or 5 because of the light damage. I have never heard of that before and I don't think it's true.

Anyway, instead of regrouping and getting to it everyone starts whining at me for claiming I could solo heal when I can't. The rest of the party wipes (even though we should have been able to do it, even without the two wizards) and several people thank me for wasting their time...

So... A change in the health bar from red to purple, black, or whatever would be appreciated.

/signed

1st of all it is never a divines responsibility to heal an arcane caster (wizard, sorc) if they can't heal themselves no matter the form, its their own fault they failed.

But this actually makes sense, a default purple bar with option to allow person to change color would be nice for undead type characters. Possibly an option for warforged type characters as well.

mobrien316
09-02-2012, 10:04 PM
1st of all it is never a divines responsibility to heal an arcane caster (wizard, sorc) if they can't heal themselves no matter the form, its their own fault they failed.

I have never understood this philosophy. If someone needs healing and you can heal them, why not do so?

I have capped two cleric lives and I have never had the slightest problem healing anyone but undead pale masters. And I often will try to throw them a Harm if they need it and I'm able to do so.

I would not want to be in a party with a divine caster who felt it was not part of his job to help heal arcane casters, regardless of their race. The only exception is for undead pale masters, and that is simply a matter of game mechanics. My positive energy healing spells are wasted on them, and I have to be pretty much on top of them and facing them to hit them with a Harm spell.

It really isn't that much of a stretch for a cleric who feels it's not his responsibility to heal arcanes to also conclude that every class should be able to self heal via scrolls, wands, and SF pots, so he is not going to heal anyone but himself from now on.

KillEveryone
09-02-2012, 10:51 PM
/sign

taurean430
09-02-2012, 11:41 PM
/signed.

I had bizarre issues with party healing just doing some EE chest farms the other day. PM kept going in and out of form. I could not get him to understand that choosing one or the other doesn't waste my mana and timing trying heal and failing, then trying harm and succeeding or vice versa.

As for Shroud, the new 'wisdom' in raid settings in pugland appears to be to recommend PM's to drop form to avoid death by judgement. Silly as it is, it's hard to argue down. So I just let people know that simply ressing them is cheaper and more efficient than playing a guessing game in those situations. They stay in form then...

varusso
09-02-2012, 11:55 PM
/signed.

I had bizarre issues with party healing just doing some EE chest farms the other day. PM kept going in and out of form. I could not get him to understand that choosing one or the other doesn't waste my mana and timing trying heal and failing, then trying harm and succeeding or vice versa.

As for Shroud, the new 'wisdom' in raid settings in pugland appears to be to recommend PM's to drop form to avoid death by judgement. Silly as it is, it's hard to argue down. So I just let people know that simply ressing them is cheaper and more efficient than playing a guessing game in those situations. They stay in form then...

Whereas the simple solution is dont use that ability in that fight. Its an active ability, not a passive, right? Common sense should tell the majority of players that an active and self-healing PM is worth WAY more than a divine's ability to make a handful of devils go boom. A PM that drops form in that fight is likely to end up in the penalty box, especially on elite.

Fortunately the majority of shroud runs I do anymore are guild runs, where the healer(s) is almost always a guildie. Unfortunately, my guildies seem to think it is absolutely hilarious to try and kill me in new and creative ways, so I have been avoiding shroud while waiting for the bug to be fixed. :rolleyes:

psi0nix
09-02-2012, 11:58 PM
As a PaleMaster, I never expect healing from others in any quest or raid, it's just not needed, and I'd rather those healing others stayed focused on the people who need it rather than trying to work out if I am in form / not in form / need healing / don't need healing.

Although I usually do say at the start "don't worry about me".

This was a case of the PM's being gimps. :) -

I agree that as a PM there is very rarely a need to be healed in any way by anyone else.

I will say that if there are more than 1 PM's in the party then we look after each other, stick close together for shared aura and bursts.

I don't know how they could have died in a shroud, but I guess not everyone has run it a million times either so it's hard to say.

TL;DR: Not your fault OP.

taurean430
09-03-2012, 01:35 AM
Whereas the simple solution is dont use that ability in that fight. Its an active ability, not a passive, right? Common sense should tell the majority of players that an active and self-healing PM is worth WAY more than a divine's ability to make a handful of devils go boom. A PM that drops form in that fight is likely to end up in the penalty box, especially on elite.

Fortunately the majority of shroud runs I do anymore are guild runs, where the healer(s) is almost always a guildie. Unfortunately, my guildies seem to think it is absolutely hilarious to try and kill me in new and creative ways, so I have been avoiding shroud while waiting for the bug to be fixed. :rolleyes:

It appears that there are many who find blowing up PM's to be a fun distraction. While I don't agree with this, it doesn't stop others. I use judgement when soloing. Or, when the arcanes in the party announce that they are either sorcs or archmages. Not worth the trouble otherwise.

But, I have seen it used in a similar way to grease a number of times since it's been available.

Can't say much for anyone else, but typically I expect Pales to be watching themselves. This even though I carry the spells on my divines to help out in a bad situation. I agree it's silly. This is why I point out the cheaper cost of throwing a res vs playing a guessing game and running the risk of losing other party members chain casting at them when they eat a DBF and drop too low.

The real problem though is that you cannot tell when a PM is in and out of form in the middle of large battles. As for being complained at or blamed like the OP describes I only would have 3 words: Ha ha ha...

Entelech
09-03-2012, 01:43 AM
/signed.

Anything that makes a Cleric's job easier is fine by me. We have taken too many steps in the opposite direction, lately.

Cyndrome
09-03-2012, 02:10 AM
Who are YOU running with? I have *never* been in any group at all -- raid or otherwise -- where the PM (usually me) was "pressured" in any way to drop form. It is, in fact, the exact opposite -- most groups are quite content to have a caster that can do their job and NOT need a babysitter. The only exception is when there is a gob of light damage in a quest -- at most that usually results in a warning for the PM (if they are new to the class or the quest) to be more cautious.

I agree completely. This should never be a problem even in an incompetent group. If there is a PM in the party you should assume they are in form. Once I have lich form the only time I am out of form in a quest is when I zone in and right after I shrine. The one exception would be Running with the Devils- but I am not dumb enough to run that on elite on a PM regardless. A PM that is not in form in part 4 or 5 of the Shroud is more useful as a soul stone, as they would likely be more of a drain on party resources than they would be to assist the raid. That being said, when I am playing a PM pretty much everything in part 4 is dead as soon as it spawns.

I would drop party before dropping form in parts 4 or 5 of the Shroud.

Habreno
09-03-2012, 12:52 PM
When on a fvs/clr ignore any wizard or sorcs HP bar unless there is a very good reason that they would need healing (palemaster out of form in running with the devils, you see the sorc tripped/stunned, etc).


Assume that a wizard in particular is either:

fleshie and a palemaster (can't heal em)
or
WF and an archmage (they can heal themselves).

Any arcane that cannot self heal needs to reroll, straight up.

If they can't self heal that doesn't guarantee that they are a waste of a party spot, but 9 times out of 10 they will be.

Arcane that can't self heal is not always gimp. Maybe you ran into a 20 Sorc who's a first life and hasn't gotten their +6 CHA skills item crafted yet because they wanted a HP item? Can't quite self heal reliably, even with buffs and Heal scrolls, because the UMD isn't there yet.

Not a gimp.


PM Wizard not in form because of light damage? Not a gimp.

Sorry, fully disagree.


Building a sorc or a wizard to self heal is incredibly easy and takes nothing away from anything else the class can do.

It isn't a problem, so long as the cleric/favored soul/whoever you somehow enlist to scroll heal you is fine with it. That is very rare, as most healers realize that their arcane should be self sufficient. You had the choice to be incredible as an arcane and you chose to be merely OK.

This isn't comparing DCs. DCs and self healing are in no way mutually exclusive.

If you are a wizard or sorc chugging cure serious pots at mid/high levels, I pity the choices you have made.

It isn't about min/maxing. It is about making the very, very obvious decision to build for self healing on an arcane.

So...

I don't think palemasters should get a different colored HP bar because it is not necessary in any way and if a wizard gets butthurt because they didn't get heals...that is their own RL IQ check they failed when they rolled the character. Sounds harsh but, hey, why make changes that can very easily be solved by the players in question?

SO, SO SOOOO much other stuff is ACTUALLY broken in this game. If it isn't broken, PLEASE, devs, don't try and fix it!!!

I cannot think of a single situation that this would help that could not be otherwise be resolved in a handful of seconds of quick communication, and that situation is FAR from common to begin with in the first place.

I've played palemasters, I've played clr/fvs, and it has never been an issue in the slightest.

/not signed.

You haven't played one recently, or run Caught in the Web on one. Otherwise, you would be complaining because everything you do in there is nerfed. Your heals don't hit for full, a PM aura doesn't hit fully, and if you're not paying attention **** hits the fan.

Fully disagree.


I don't think there was a problem with my ability to solo heal. I've solo healed elite Shroud before.

When the two wizards went down at the start of part 4, mostly everyone stopped when the leader began complaining and saying it was a wipe. When Harry dropped, I think only two people went to the center to melee him.

The problem, as I see, was the two wizards (who did take the time to tell me they were undead while we were waiting to go into part 1, but did not bother to tell me they would not be undead when we got to part 4) and the leader who was far too quick to call it a wipe. With everyone but me, a rogue, and a fighter standing around moaning and groaning in part 4, the leader's prediction of a wipe was inevitably proven correct. It didn't have to be.

Party fail. Simple as that.


/signed

1st of all it is never a divines responsibility to heal an arcane caster (wizard, sorc) if they can't heal themselves no matter the form, its their own fault they failed.

But this actually makes sense, a default purple bar with option to allow person to change color would be nice for undead type characters. Possibly an option for warforged type characters as well.

If someone can't heal themselves when they are generally expected to, it is their responsibility to let me know so I can heal them. If they fail to do that then yes, it's their fault. If not, then no.


/signed.

Anything that makes a Cleric's job easier is fine by me. We have taken too many steps in the opposite direction, lately.

ESPECIALLY with Caught in the Web and the debuff......... Seriously, I have an easier time healing Epic Elites than that on Epic Hard. Even Epic Elite Dairy Queen is easier with a PuG than EH CitW in guild...

DynaTheCat
09-03-2012, 05:01 PM
Good PMs do not fear the light. :)

Agreed on the "If you can't use heal scrolls by the time you're 25, you need to reroll or get more UMD/CHA" rule.

daniel7
09-04-2012, 11:20 AM
Signed

Make it available in the options menu, more options can't hurt.

I'd like to add another color for WF.

If I had my way fleshies would be green, PMs would be purple, and WFs would be grey. Giving the WF characters a distinct color helps you remember which party members need the bigger cure spells when things get hectic.

danotmano1998
09-04-2012, 11:22 AM
/Signed.


Reminds me of This idea here. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=338552&highlight=HEALER%27S+LAMENT)

AmiSouthpaw
09-14-2012, 12:50 PM
As one that has a PM it is not up to the cleric to keep up with the PM especially in a raid that they started out in form. Those that slip and turn it to the clerics fault are nothing but trolls imo. I know that I will get hated on for this but
I have been with parties that the cleric spent more time trying to heal the PMs, there was me an one other, wasted their mana several times and did not have pots so used the shrines and kept at it after we told them that you can not heal us you have to use harm the PMs got cussed out and all we did was squelch the ones that kept it up. I try to take it easy on clerics as much as i can....never know when you need that raise from death, or extra sp and yes i have a cleric as well. Back to the general idea of this post i agree something visual is a good idea for PMs as most clerics/fvs/druids do not look at the character but the health bar...i know that i do and use the F keys to select the person or click on their bar to heal them and have casted healing spells on a few PMs and laughed at my own stupidity

/signed

Todkaninchen
09-14-2012, 03:05 PM
I think it's a really good idea to give a solid indicator to the cleric as to form using a different color bar. The reason is simply clear communication of something that would be obvious to someone if, say, they actually were there cleric looking at their party-member but which requires--in the current game mechanics--some form of communication in a timely manner between pale master and healer in game.

An additional indicator--on those same lines--might be one for character classes that get reduced positive energy healing and may be healed by repair spells (warforged and non-warforged artificers using construct essence). Just adding a second color--maybe a darker red--for these classes might also help encourage co-healing (with repair spells) by arcanes with repair capabilities. So--in this case--it would be a system of 3 colors: red (heal spells heal), dark red (both heal spells and repair spells heal) and purple (undead, harm spells heal). Maybe let heal-augments on warforged make the dark red lighter...

And as far as "You must be warforged or pale master or re-roll" issue goes, that's bull excretement. Unless you are a palemaster with essentially heal-over-time spells, when you do that you're wasting some of the party's most effective resources to succeed in terms of SP and time whenever you have an actual healer on board. Unless you're only there to buff and maybe charm so you're piking battles anyway, you're dumping your damage capability and shifting that damage you could have stopped onto your party mates whenever your efforts are duplicated by a healer.

For soloing, it makes sense to be hyper-self sufficient like that, but if you're taking enough damage to need to spend significant portions of your time and blue-bar on self-healing while in a group, you're a half-a**ing piker no matter how "strong" your build is. Doubly so if you've made yourself mostly unhealable by anyone else.

Requiro
09-19-2012, 04:08 AM
/signed

Dark purple color, just like Death Aura.

goodoldxelos
09-19-2012, 05:29 AM
I think there is a consensus here, I hope the devs will consider this minor change

jonqrandom
09-19-2012, 06:27 AM
for in-form PMs, totally /signed.

what about repairable targets? arcanes, would you be more likely to chuck repairs if you could see at a glance on the bar who you could help? healers, would you be less likely to heal those same targets?

MrChipinator
09-19-2012, 10:28 AM
I agree, some cool new UI customization would be nice in general. Like the icons that indicate which class you are? I wouldn't mind having those redone a bit, just for kicks.

Would be cool to see a purple HP bar in a group, with a skull as the class icon indicating he is in PM form.

/signed

stille_nacht
09-20-2012, 02:36 PM
lol what kind of wizard goes out of form in part 4 of elite shroud?
"hurr durr, i'm doing to make the clerics heal me only and not the entire party while harry is DPS-ing them"

its called neg burst/aura + protection from energy, fire shield, and general dodging people, not complex


as to the change, i'm all for it, it can only improve the game

Coldmurder
12-08-2012, 09:00 AM
WHERE ARE THE CLERICS AT?????????

WE CAN"T FIND A CLERIC TO JOIN OUR GROUP????????????????

This is just another example of why there are so little clerics out there.
These two who did that. Its their fault not yours.

And this is another reason why i TRed both my clerics into melee.

To many people complain to shun the fact it was their fault.

CaptainSpacePony
12-08-2012, 12:17 PM
WHERE ARE THE CLERICS AT?????????

WE CAN"T FIND A CLERIC TO JOIN OUR GROUP????????????????

This is just another example of why there are so little clerics out there.
These two who did that. Its their fault not yours.

And this is another reason why i TRed both my clerics into melee.

To many people complain to shun the fact it was their fault.

I bet you also made a pale master too as you clearly have necromatic skills :)

More recently I included this http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=400066 (shameless thread plug)

That being said, I don't think this has much to do with why there is a (perceived) shortage of clerics (healers).
There are a good number of healing types out there, but many parties consider them a "must have" while the other member slots are discretionary. This insistance on dedicated healing can make it conspicuously seem that there are "so little clerics out there."

If there is a real shortage, I'll bet that more related to the fact that playing healer for a party is a LOT different than most other roles. My attention is more focused on health bars than on environment. There are other contributing factors (ungrateful kamakaze players) that have been discussed at length elsewhere, but I contend it is mostly the fact that the different play style is just not as fun for some (myself included).

danzig138
12-08-2012, 02:15 PM
To the OP - I always assume a NON WF Wiz is in form. Its up to them to tell me if theyre not. Not your faultNo, it's not up to me to tell you if my halfling archmage is not in undead form.