PDA

View Full Version : Drow(in general)



Conncetchathac
08-24-2012, 08:30 PM
Okay, umm basically I have more than a few questions about Drow. I saw that their recommended classes are basically Wizard, Sorcerer and Rogue. My first question why Rogue but not Ranger? Do the racial bonuses really make that much of a difference? Two, I saw the icon pic for Favored Soul had a Drow in it. So if a Drow is used for a posterboy of sorts, why isn't Favored Soul a recommended class for it? Also, how do you guys believe a Drow Ranger would do in general? By that I mean that I'm not asking for builds or anything, just what would you guys consider to be a pro or con of the Drow. Note: I have extremely limited knowledge of D&D in general, both DDO and P&P and it is pretty much limited to about thirty hours or so of play on DDO.

Gratan
08-24-2012, 09:10 PM
Pretty much with any class you would be better off with a different race.

Entelech
08-24-2012, 09:25 PM
Look...

Mechanically, Drow are outshone once you unlock 32 point builds. There are a very few situations where they are NEARLY as good as other races, but overall, there's no mechanical advantage to being a Drow.

They look cool, though. At least if you're into that sort of thing.

So, from a pure numbers perspective, Drow are the Bastard Sword of races: a suboptimal trap that the Devs seem to be selling harder than a coworker with a blank Girl Scout cookie order form.

So before you start asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin regarding possible builds, decide how much you really care about mechanical minimaxing. The question is tremendously complicated.

And, to get anything useful out of the discussion, you will need to build, play and level several characters of different types to learn how they work, how you prefer to play, and so on. It's a major undertaking. And nobody can tell you what the best character FOR YOU is, except you. Your playstyle, preferences, and skillset have too large an impact on performance.

If you aren't planning on putting in that kind of study, then the short answer is "Mu".

FestusHood
08-24-2012, 09:43 PM
Most of the dislike of Drow and elves in general stems entirely from the fact that they have 2 less constitution points at character creation. My personal opinion is that the effect of this is overstated. Possibly also that drow don't receive the 32 starting placeable build points that other classes can once that is unlocked or purchased.

The advantages for drow as arcane casters are that they can reach 20 in their primary casting stat on creation, which can be helpful especially if you don't have access to a lot of gear to compensate for this with other races.

They are good choices as rogues as all of their enhanced stats (dex/int/cha) are useful to that class. For rangers an elf may be a better choice as they get a couple of enhancements to slightly increase their bow damage.

They are also a good choice in my opinion for the odd two weapon fighting paladin as their charisma and dex modifiers will make reaching certain desirable marks in that configuration easier, and you can take the saved build points and bump your constitution so that isn't really a factor.

Frankly as you progress the tiny differences between 2 build points one way or the other hardly makes so much difference that any racial choice is absolutely unusable with any class, unless you are trying to reach marks to qualify for certain feats or abilities. It just makes sense to choose a race that synergizes with the class, i.e. has advantages that lend to the primary abilities of that class.

Conncetchathac
08-24-2012, 09:50 PM
Okay, well let me say this, while normally I play RTS and FPS style games, I have played Fable, which is granted a very old game. I found my ideal build as a "Warrior" who wore the heaviest armor imaginable, ran around with a warhammer, could dish out damage, but ironically could not take a hit. I basically used the only two spells I had(Life Drain and Rage) to beef up my attacks to extreme proportions and then ran around draining their life force before knocking them upside the head. For the most part, I have settled into a somewhat decent rhythm with an elf(yes, full-blooded elf) Ranger and I use tactics of Sneak, start popping with arrows and then finish off with two swords(Fintan's Bite[Add fifteen temporary hitpoints] and my choice of either Glaciation Sword, Short Sword of Pain[Acid Damage] and Longsword/Shortsword of Righteousness[Damage against evil alignment and I have both so yeah]). So far I can still count the number of quests I have died in on one hand, which I understand is something of an improbability from what I have heard. So please elaborate on what makes the Drow so bad other than "the numbers aren't in their favor" since so much of the game mechanics in this game rely on probability. So while you can stack the odds in your favor, it doesn't mean they will always be in your favor.

Also, I thought the point of "roleplaying" was to "roleplay" not "build a supercharacter that never loses." Almost defeats the purpose of defeating a game. And the reason I asked for opinions was to see opinions, which I am seeing granted. So in that respect, I literally got what I asked for. But anything and everything is viable to some degree, so why not try to see just how viable it is other than just crunching numbers?

Conncetchathac
08-24-2012, 09:59 PM
Most of the dislike of Drow and elves in general stems entirely from the fact that they have 2 less constitution points at character creation. My personal opinion is that the effect of this is overstated. Possibly also that drow don't receive the 32 starting placeable build points that other classes can once that is unlocked or purchased.

The advantages for drow as arcane casters are that they can reach 20 in their primary casting stat on creation, which can be helpful especially if you don't have access to a lot of gear to compensate for this with other races.

They are good choices as rogues as all of their enhanced stats (dex/int/cha) are useful to that class. For rangers an elf may be a better choice as they get a couple of enhancements to slightly increase their bow damage.

They are also a good choice in my opinion for the odd two weapon fighting paladin as their charisma and dex modifiers will make reaching certain desirable marks in that configuration easier, and you can take the saved build points and bump your constitution so that isn't really a factor.

Frankly as you progress the tiny differences between 2 build points one way or the other hardly makes so much difference that any racial choice is absolutely unusable with any class, unless you are trying to reach marks to qualify for certain feats or abilities. It just makes sense to choose a race that synergizes with the class, i.e. has advantages that lend to the primary abilities of that class.

Sorry, didn't see this, took a while to write my post. Hmm, okay that makes about the Rogue vs. Ranger I guess. I just thought those same stats kind of worked the same for both classes, just the Rogues were sneaky to be sneaky and the Rangers were sneaky so they could stalk whatever/whoever it was they were about to kill.

AbyssalMage
08-24-2012, 10:10 PM
Okay, umm basically I have more than a few questions about Drow. I saw that their recommended classes are basically Wizard, Sorcerer and Rogue.
Possible carry over from 3.5 edition rules?

Basically stay away from Drow :p

FestusHood
08-24-2012, 10:12 PM
Sneaking as a rogue is more practical than it is as a ranger just because they can actually get some advantages from attacking things without being noticed, especially the instakill abililty assassinate. You can certainly do sneaking with rangers and their class skills even support this. There just isn't as much an advantage to it, unless you actually want to go past monsters completely, without fighting them.

That being said i never sneak even with my rogues so that is a different playstyle from what i have much experience with. I'd like to try it sometime i just haven't yet.

Dawnsfire
08-24-2012, 10:22 PM
Back in the day folks used to build TWF drow Pallies. They used this guide (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542). It is fairly old but you may find something there that is still useful.

Another guide that is getting a bit old are Tihocan's 'Revisiting paths: Builds for new players' (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=232660) guide. It is a bit newer and has builds for all classes with breakouts for each race. I suspect most builds there will still work even if they may be sub-optimal.

Good luck finding what you are looking for!

Conncetchathac
08-24-2012, 10:23 PM
Possible carry over from 3.5 edition rules?

Basically stay away from Drow :p

Wouldn't know, never played P&P before. But I believe that is still what DDO recommends for them right know and I'm not too sure, but I'm pretty sure there are some differences between DDO and P&P. At least, I would think there would be for obvious reasons. But again, please elaborate, is this opinion from experience, from a friend's experience or is it just number crunching because number crunching says I should be brain dead due to a list of head trauma as long as Shaq is tall before I was twelve years old. Clumsy, yet lucky.


Sneaking as a rogue is more practical than it is as a ranger just because they can actually get some advantages from attacking things without being noticed, especially the instakill abililty assassinate. You can certainly do sneaking with rangers and their class skills even support this. There just isn't as much an advantage to it, unless you actually want to go past monsters completely, without fighting them.

That being said i never sneak even with my rogues so that is a different playstyle from what i have much experience with. I'd like to try it sometime i just haven't yet.

I mostly try to sneak to avoid being seen right off the bat so I can get into position and shoot either say a kobold scout if it is by itself so it can't set off an alarm or get the first shot on some sort of spellcaster or whatever the biggest melee(named characters, Orc clerics, those guys) is after I've put him at the farthest range. That's really all I use Sneak for. I like the experience I rack up too much to quit fighting.

FestusHood
08-24-2012, 10:29 PM
You can google and find plenty of drow discussions on the ddo forums. There is a general distaste for drow and elves in general. Again, if you don't have 32 point builds Drow are either even with, or better than most races for some classes.They are the only race that can reach a starting stat of 20 in either intelligence or charisma. Any argument that says this is completely meaningless assumes that you will have access to things you won't have for a long time. Things like +3 tomes and raid or epic gear. Until then it is basically a free spell focus feat in all schools.

Conncetchathac
08-24-2012, 10:40 PM
So basically the dislike is that while they get ahead real fast starting wise, every other race is able to catch up or pass when it gets to the later levels?

@Dawnsfire: Thanks for the links, I'll look at them right now.

FestusHood
08-24-2012, 10:58 PM
Actually i'm not sure why there is so much general elf hate, other than the minus 2 constitution score, and also that they only have 2 toughness enhancements so they generally have a little bit less hit points than other races.

And actually only a human arcane can effectively match a drow at end game, because once every conceivable bonus that can be aquired in the game is achieved, the drow will be one point ahead, but on an odd number. Since bonuses only apply on even numbers, the extra point is wasted. This was based on a lengthy older post i read debating the best class for arcane casters, so it's possible there may be some newer bonuses that change this, but i'm not aware of them. But other than that no, the drow will always have that stat advantage, given the same gear.

Most people actually say that warforged are the supreme race for arcane casters, because of the repair spells which work like healing spells on them. I can understand this with wizards, as warforged have no penalty on their intelligence, but for sorcerers i don't see it so much as they have a minus 2 penalty to charisma, which actually puts them 4 points behind drow.

LOOON375
08-24-2012, 11:04 PM
If you want to play a Drow, play a Drow.

I have a first life, TWF Drow fighter that does fine in ALL content.

Jaid314
08-24-2012, 11:33 PM
yeah, it isn't so much a matter of others catching up to drow at "later levels" as it is a matter of others catching up to drow... after farming every last possible positive modifier to either int or cha possible. which, for the record, i wouldn't expect to hit any time soon. as in, once you hit level 20, you probably have months before you get everything, unless you basically have enough time on your hands that you can play DDO as if it was a full time job.

there is, of course, a miniscule chance that everything will work out perfectly for you and you would wind up getting everything you need within a very short time. i wouldn't count on it though.

the main reason drow are not popular is because right now their enhancements stink. not their class ones, of course (those are the same no matter what race you have), but for example, a human or half-elf can get bonus healing amp, and large bonus melee damage boosts. a drow can get... a small bonus with a few sub-optimal weapons (not that they're terrible, for the record, they're just not the absolute top weapon... if that doesn't bother you, you can absolutely use them, and you will be plenty effective if your build is otherwise sound).

now then, the builds where drow work best (as in, best for drow) are:

rogue (assassin or mechanic) - dex, int, and cha are all useful (dex and int more so than cha). dex lets you qualify for some important feats and gives you better reflex save (and open locks), int determines skill points and modifies your search and disable device, rogue mechanic crossbow damage, trap DC, and assassin assassinate DC. cha modifies use magic device, diplomacy, and bluff (use magic device is an important skill, don't neglect it - it starts off very slow, but builds up to become very useful later on). better races mechanically include human, potentially half-orc (depends on whether you want more instakills or more melee damage), and halfling.

artificer - all three stats are useful, basically for much the same reason as with rogues, plus spell and rune arm DCs for int, and your ranged attack modifier for dex. assuming you go with a standard crossbow artificer, that is (which is generally highly recommended). better races mechanically include human, half-elf, and to some people warforged.

wizard - wizards basically need a good int, the higher the better, and a good con, the higher the better. a bit of str is not a bad idea, but not required (it will in many cases make your life a bit easier, but is generally not worth replacing int or con in most cases). if there was no penalty to con, drow would probably be the best choice mechanically. as it is, they make very strong pale masters (but then, so do most races - pale master is just a strong choice to begin with), and decent archmages (no easy self-healing though). mechanically better choices include human (not as much as usual though), half-elf (also not as much as usual), and warforged (better self-healing), especially if you want to be an archmage.

sorcerer - basically same situation as wizard except with cha instead of int. warforged goes a bit higher because sorcerers are generally expected to nuke and not much else, and you can do that (albeit slightly less effectively) even without the best cha in the game. however, if you want a more versatile sorcerer (ie one that does well at instakills and crowd control as well as DPS), then you'll want either human, drow, or half-elf. expect to take a *long* time to get the gear you need to be effective in extremely challenging content with a sorcerer in crowd control or instakill roles though.

paladin - as noted, certain TWF paladin builds benefit from drow. note that paladins are not generally considered powerful currently, due to being very much a hybrid build in a game that often rewards extreme specialization. you can heal yourself (and others to some extent), and you can deal decent but not awe-inspiring damage. that said, if you intend to solo and like melee, this could work for you. potentially, at least.

now, with that being said... drow will work just fine for any role, provided you don't make terrible decisions (PS: throwing-specialised rogue is not a good choice). DDO is not a game where you need the perfect build if you want to be able to play it. you will be slightly less effective in some ways. mostly, you don't need to worry about it. unless of course, you want to run epic elite content right off the bat (PS: that is probably also not a good choice, though there is a possibility you happen to be some kind of DDO savant and you'll do just fine).

Entelech
08-25-2012, 02:06 AM
So basically the dislike is that while they get ahead real fast starting wise, every other race is able to catch up or pass when it gets to the later levels?

@Dawnsfire: Thanks for the links, I'll look at them right now.

No.

If you do not have 32 point builds available but have Drow, usually from favor unlock, a Drow can be superior to a 28 point build. But because Drow are the only race lacking a 32 point version, every other race is better once 32 point status is unlocked.

This has nothing to do with leveling a character, but with what account options have been unlocked at the moment you create the character at level one.

That said, you can build a competent character of any class as any race. A great axe swinging Drow Barbarian will not be QUITE as good as a Half Orc, but the gap is not insurmountable. All that stuff in the original post about why not Rangers and Favored Souls falls back into the "terribly complicated" territory above, and can be ignored if you are not into character design optimization.

Simply put, Drow are good for builds where you need an extremely high Dexterity, Intelligence, or Charisma, but less good for builds where you need more than a single high stat. So you see a lot of Drow Wizards and Sorcerers, a few Bards and Rogues, and relatively few Monks and Paladins, simply because of how the stat points shake out.

And any Drow Monks and Paladins you see are probably there because the creator is playing an angle.

Entelech
08-25-2012, 02:22 AM
Oh, and Jaid314 also made an excellent post. She neglected to point out that the reason you see more Warforged Sorcerers than any other race is that aWarfoged Sorcerer can heal himself (and other Warforged in the party) with Repair spells.

From stats, Warforged look like TERRIBLE Sorcerers, with -2 Charisma compared to the Drow +2. but that self healing provides a benefit that outweighs four points of primary casting stat.

This is an example of the sort of "angles" I am talking about.

Loriac
08-25-2012, 02:38 AM
The general dislike for -2Con races is out-of-date now imo. With an abundance of sources of hp on items, plus the additional hps gained at epic levels and with the right EDs, 20 hp really isn't the issue it used to be. The critical thing is that when you build a drow, you absolutely must mitigate its con penalty as much as your build allows (i.e. put at least 6 points into con at generation, take toughness, equip as many hp items as you can and so on).

The stat spread for drow actually makes them ideal for artificers: its the only race that can qualify easily for combat archery (assuming +3 tomes) and put all level ups into Int (which is also 1 higher than the equivalent human or helf build). I'd still only go for this option on a 36pt build (i.e. 32pt drow on 3rd life+) but it doesn't seem at all bad to me at first glance.

They are also very good for rogues, with all 3 favored stats being useful for that class (int for assassin, cha for umd).

There is much less synergy with rangers, who would typically dump int and cha, and are more hurt by the loss of 2 con as they are (or should be built to be) front-line melee when necessary.

FrozenNova
08-25-2012, 04:08 AM
The biggest issue is not their con penalty, it is their complete and utter void of useful benefits besides stats.
Humans have healing amp and damage boost and an extra skillpoint and an extrea feat.
Dwarf has tactics and armor mastery and spell saves.
Halflings get massive sneak damage and hero's companion and halfling luck, a cheap way to boost saves.
Horc has the massive THF benefits. A horc barb is 6 str and 10 damage over a drow.
Helf has amp and damage boost and dilettante.
Warforged has tactics and power attack.

Drow, on the other hand, have nothing. Nothing whatsoever, besides +rapiers and +shortswords.

Angelus_dead
08-25-2012, 04:25 AM
Drow, on the other hand, have nothing. Nothing whatsoever, besides +rapiers and +shortswords.
Actually Drow have the highest ranged DPS among non-ranged spec characters...! For some reason, not many people know that. Even Drows don't seem to bother to carry the gear to allow them to do that: it's almost as if DDO players don't value ranging.

stoerm
08-25-2012, 07:21 AM
Drow, on the other hand, have nothing. Nothing whatsoever, besides +rapiers and +shortswords.

The new free spell resistance is quite useful, but the general point holds. Other races have more benefits.

Furare
08-25-2012, 07:32 AM
Drow rangers work (http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/sorenar/).

If you want to play one.

I made that character before I unlocked 32 points, which is why she's a drow, but she's worked out fine. She's not really sneaky and she barely ever uses ranged weapons - she's running with the Fury ED and just slaughtering everything. If you want to play a drow, play a drow - other things may be better, but you'll certainly be good enough.

Ryiah
08-25-2012, 07:47 AM
If you do not have 32 point builds available but have Drow, usually from favor unlock, a Drow can be superior to a 28 point build. But because Drow are the only race lacking a 32 point version, every other race is better once 32 point status is unlocked.

A Drow can also be superior to a 32-point build since it is technically 34-points (assuming I'm doing my math right). The problem is taking advantage of the three stats that are boosted. Generally if I can take advantage of at least two then I prefer to be a Drow for the Spell Resistance.

SirValentine
08-25-2012, 08:23 AM
it's almost as if ddo players don't value ranging.

lol

Noctus
08-25-2012, 09:03 AM
Actually Drow have the highest ranged DPS among non-ranged spec characters...! For some reason, not many people know that. Even Drows don't seem to bother to carry the gear to allow them to do that: it's almost as if DDO players don't value ranging.

My gosh! Where might that come from ..... :rolleyes:

Satinavian
08-25-2012, 09:18 AM
More as if players of non-ranged-spec toons don't care about a slight increase in their ranged damage.

If the bonus would apply to ranged builds... but it doesn't.

Dysmetria
08-25-2012, 10:38 AM
I have more than a few questions about Drow. I saw that their recommended classes are basically Wizard, Sorcerer and Rogue. My first question why Rogue but not RangerOne reason is that every possible variation of the name Drizzt has already been taken on every server.

Entelech
08-25-2012, 12:14 PM
Actually Drow have the highest ranged DPS among non-ranged spec characters...!

That's rather like winning a medal in the Special Olympics.

Ranged DPS is so low compared to melee DPS modes that most people tend to either specialize intensively in it to bring it up to semi-useful levels, or ignore it completely. Passing up an advantage you'll use in 99% of encounters to get an advantage that you'll use in 1% of encounters is not much of a trade.

Entelech
08-25-2012, 12:24 PM
A Drow can also be superior to a 32-point build since it is technically 34-points (assuming I'm doing my math right). The problem is taking advantage of the three stats that are boosted. Generally if I can take advantage of at least two then I prefer to be a Drow for the Spell Resistance.

IF the Drow requires all three stats then yes, it's slightly better.

I'm just not aware of any builds that require massive Dex, Int and Charisma at the same time, while dumping Con, Wis and Str. Sure, maybe a Bardcher could conceivably meet that requirement, but Drow don't get racial Arcane Archer, so it's a non-starter.

Also, while Drow have some of the best Spell Resistance in game, it's not all that useful. When Kobold Shamans in Waterworks are 5 levels higher than the party, and the problem ramps up from there, Spell Resistance is unreliable, working perhaps 20% of the time. You're far better off just getting better saving throws than relying on SR.

Conncetchathac
08-25-2012, 12:53 PM
Warforged has tactics and power attack.


Stupid question, but doesn't everyone use tactics? Or is it a special feat exclusive to the Warforged?


Actually Drow have the highest ranged DPS among non-ranged spec characters...! For some reason, not many people know that. Even Drows don't seem to bother to carry the gear to allow them to do that: it's almost as if DDO players don't value ranging.




Ranged DPS is so low compared to melee DPS modes that most people tend to either specialize intensively in it to bring it up to semi-useful levels, or ignore it completely. Passing up an advantage you'll use in 99% of encounters to get an advantage that you'll use in 1% of encounters is not much of a trade.

Okay, so basically everyone(well almost everyone from what I'm seeing) is into charging headlong into it and just hoping and praying? What about a Warforged Artificer I saw kicking butt with a Crossbow? Never once saw him go melee so is that just against the norm in DDO because it doesn't dish out as much DPS even though it keeps you out of range, provided you know how to strafe?

Angelus_dead
08-25-2012, 01:14 PM
Okay, so basically everyone(well almost everyone from what I'm seeing) is into charging headlong into it and just hoping and praying? What about a Warforged Artificer I saw kicking butt with a Crossbow?
That character is a ranged specialist. Artificer and Ranger both have automatic class features to boost ranged damage, so they don't fall under my example of Drow having better range damage. Other classes could decide to specialize in ranged as well, and of course Sorcerers and other casters have their own ranged attacks.

For ranged specialists, an Elf has more damage as a Ranger and Halflings have more damage as Artificers or Rogues. The case where Drow has better ranged DPS is if you're a generic Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, or someone else that's never spent a feat or AP on ranged combat. Guys like that can use the free Shuriken Mastery feat to throw at a faster rate than anyone else.

Obviously, that's really sad as far as "benefits" go...

Entelech
08-25-2012, 01:14 PM
Artificers invest heavily in crossbow usage. Feats, stats, gear, etc... That's why they can kick butt with them. If you're a ranged specialist, you can do solid DPS and stay out of melee.

Likewise, a properly built Arcane Archer can kick butt outside of melee. That's what they're designed to do.

If you're a non-ranged-spec character like Angelus_dead is talking about, then basically the fabulous Drow ranged bonus lets you break crates and exploding barrels faster. Not all that useful.


Also, there's more to it than charge in and pray. Melee characters use a variety of survival strategies, both when being built and being played. Among them:

Armor Class / Dodge / Blur / Incorporeal...i.e. being hard to hit.
Toughness / PR / Lifeshield etc...i.e. taking less damage when hit.
Elemental Resists (often from buffs)
Target prioritization...kill healers and casters first.
Stealth (and controlling how many monsters you fight at one time)
Crowd Control (limiting what the monsters can do you you while fighting them)
---Note that tactical feats such as Trip and Stunning Blow are also a form of crowd control.
Aggro management...controlling which party member(s) are taking damage.
High DPS...kill them before they have time to kill you.

The trick is using many of these survival strategies together, as effectively as possible.

FrozenNova
08-25-2012, 02:07 PM
Stupid question, but doesn't everyone use tactics? Or is it a special feat exclusive to the Warforged?
I am refering to enhancement lines. Warforgeds get the tactics enhancement line that boosts the DC's of their tactics. It's the same line as dwarf. They also get the power attack line that improves power attack. It's the same line as horc.


Okay, so basically everyone(well almost everyone from what I'm seeing) is into charging headlong into it and just hoping and praying? What about a Warforged Artificer I saw kicking butt with a Crossbow? Never once saw him go melee so is that just against the norm in DDO because it doesn't dish out as much DPS even though it keeps you out of range, provided you know how to strafe?
An artificer is a ranged specialist, which is explicitly what we're not talking about.

People are talking about the shuriken expertise, which is free for Drow. It gives you a chance to throw an extra shuriken equal to your dexterity. Throwing weapons are either for pulling enemies, or killing them when you have time to waste and they are completely out of reach.

AbyssalMage
08-25-2012, 02:14 PM
Actually i'm not sure why there is so much general elf hate, other than the minus 2 constitution score, and also that they only have 2 toughness enhancements so they generally have a little bit less hit points than other races.
This was the old reason. With epic levels, this is more of a min/max thing than an actual problem. One of the few good things to come out of the expansion (IMHO)


And actually only a human arcane can effectively match a drow at end game, because once every conceivable bonus that can be aquired in the game is achieved, the drow will be one point ahead, but on an odd number. Since bonuses only apply on even numbers, the extra point is wasted. This was based on a lengthy older post i read debating the best class for arcane casters, so it's possible there may be some newer bonuses that change this, but i'm not aware of them. But other than that no, the drow will always have that stat advantage, given the same gear.
Partially agree. The stat advantage is for min/max people, like the -2 Con sense Update 14/15. All that matters is DC and the ability to bypass NPC SR. When you could get your numbers high enough the choice for Drow made them less "good." That will always come with gear.


Most people actually say that warforged are the supreme race for arcane casters, because of the repair spells which work like healing spells on them. I can understand this with wizards, as warforged have no penalty on their intelligence, but for sorcerers i don't see it so much as they have a minus 2 penalty to charisma, which actually puts them 4 points behind drow.
For "easy button" style of play I would agree with this. A Sorc UMD skill doesn't become useful until later levels so you can self heal with wands and scrolls so Warforged are definitively more forgiving. That being said, U14/15 leveled the playing field with many of the immunities Warforged once enjoyed, making them "slightly" less attractive. Combine that with Robe v. Docent debate and the playing field leveled a "little."

A 4 point difference (+2) makes no difference if the DC you need is 43 and a Warforged PC has a DC 44 and a Drow PC has 46. Then it becomes what other "benefits" the race "gives" you. Then you are talking about min/max again in regards to stats, enhancements, and feats. And that is why Drow usually are ranked 2nd or 3rd on the list by players.

Aashrym
08-25-2012, 02:37 PM
The stat bonuses are good for several classes; bards, rogues, artificers, paladins, sorcerers, wizards. When it takes 3 build points to raise a stat +1 then 4 build points doesn't do much compared to +2's in 3 stats. -2 CON doesn't sound like that much in the long run looking at hit points but it does make it that much harder to qualify for epic toughness for anyone looking for that feat.

The real issue is the enhancements, as mentioned. With the enhancement overhaul we're expecting we should see something, even if it's just the racial unlock for tempest. That might bring out more drow characters.

RedHost
08-25-2012, 04:37 PM
I mostly try to sneak to avoid being seen right off the bat so I can get into position and shoot either say a kobold scout if it is by itself so it can't set off an alarm or get the first shot on some sort of spellcaster or whatever the biggest melee(named characters, Orc clerics, those guys) is after I've put him at the farthest range. That's really all I use Sneak for. I like the experience I rack up too much to quit fighting.

Play experience is good, and solid tactics such as this can make soloing your way through mid level (12-18ish) elites quite fun and enjoyable for some people. And in this play style people generally do not care how optimized their character is, they simply enjoy the experience. However, once you advance to the highest levels you simply can't keep this up without also having the stats to back it up. In the end, if you can not take a 400 point disintegrate and keep going you will eventually hit content that you can not complete. No amount of slow play and whittling things down will help with this.

For some people this means that they will use a more optimized race in order to make their character 'succeed'. For others, dropping to easier difficulties and quests is fun and acceptable. No right or wrong way about it, until you try and force what you enjoy on others. Either in the form of advice, or grouping.

LordMond63
08-25-2012, 06:02 PM
As one who plays a Drow Rogue, I find that the disdain players had for this particular combination of race and class, as well as the race in general, has lessened to a huge degree over time, as the availability of items that boost CON and HP are just stoopidly easy to acquire now. True, you're going to have to work pretty hard to match the hp of other races at most levels, but the disparity isn't nearly what it once was. Mine is still 1st life and I want to say that her hp were in the low 300s when she first capped, while other races' were over 400; now, at level 21, that gap is down to perhaps 20 to 30 hp. Still a deficiency, to be sure, but not a crippling one. I would not let the CON penalty prevent you from playing a Drow if you want to, as it doesn't matter as much as it once did- and most players know that.

Also, if you're planning to go Assassin, as I did, those extra 2 points of INT are pretty nice. Higher DC = Good Times.
It also helps out by granting you more skill points each level, meaning that you can keep all of your Roguish skills at level and play with a couple more skills that can come in rather handy now and then.

FranOhmsford
08-25-2012, 06:29 PM
That character is a ranged specialist. Artificer and Ranger both have automatic class features to boost ranged damage, so they don't fall under my example of Drow having better range damage. Other classes could decide to specialize in ranged as well, and of course Sorcerers and other casters have their own ranged attacks.

For ranged specialists, an Elf has more damage as a Ranger and Halflings have more damage as Artificers or Rogues. The case where Drow has better ranged DPS is if you're a generic Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, or someone else that's never spent a feat or AP on ranged combat. Guys like that can use the free Shuriken Mastery feat to throw at a faster rate than anyone else.

Obviously, that's really sad as far as "benefits" go...

Excuse me but how does this come out as better damage than a {Good} Longbow with {Good} Arrows?

You did specify Barb and Fighter who both get Longbow prof of course.

Does Elf still give Longbow prof too?

Yes if you can craft yourself a good returning shuriken you're at the top for throwing weapons BUT can you really compare this to Bows?

EDIT: Bow Strength can be got through a 1 lvl splash into Ranger BUT I don't believe Brutal Throw is FREE either.

Systern
08-25-2012, 07:08 PM
Drow are essentially 32 point elves that mandate that 2 build points go into Int and 2 points go into Cha. You get the ability to create these characters with less favor than the other races that don't carry this mandate.

Drow aren't preferred for rangers, as pointed out, because Int and Cha aren't required for Rangers to function well. While a Ranger could benefit from a few extra skill points, their casting stat is Wis, not Int.

The other difference between Drow and Elves are in the racial enhancements. Would you prefer enhancements for Longbow and Longsword (martial weapons that Ranger gives proficiency), or Rapiers, Shortswords (weapons that Rogue also gives proficiency), and Shurikens.

Elves give the Arcane Archer and Elven Arcanum enhancement lines. Drow gives the racial feats of Shuriken Expertice (doublestrike for shurikens that has its percent based on your Dex), and Spell Resistance (which is fine while playing without a divine caster, but the Caster's Spell Resistance buff is +2 over your innate racial feat)


The state of the game after update 14 is such that min/maxxing to the degree that was encouraged for "Epic" quests is no longer required making more builds and race combinations viable. If you think you can build a viable, fun to play character, as an Elf, a Drow would probably be just as viable.

Aashrym
08-25-2012, 08:57 PM
Drow are essentially 32 point elves that mandate that 2 build points go into Int and 2 points go into Cha. You get the ability to create these characters with less favor than the other races that don't carry this mandate.

This is misleading because it costs more than 2 build points to get higher stats and builds using those stats can save more than 4 build points, which is why the stats themselves work well for MAD issues.

If you compare the elf and drow (like you did) then you could compare the cost of 18 INT for 10 build points instead of 18 INT for 16 build points. If 18 INT is good enough for the elf then it's good enough for the drow; however the drow is left with 6 more build points. 4 cover the build point loss and there is 2 point bonus to use elsewhere. It really is the enhancements that suck; the stats can be applied in a beneficial way to several builds.

THOTHdha
08-25-2012, 09:37 PM
Drow are essentially 32 point elves that mandate that 2 build points go into Int and 2 points go into Cha.

Yes, exactly. This is why a 10 STR, 10 DEX, 16 CON, 18 INT, 8 WIS, 10 CHA Wizard Elf and Drow both cost the same. Wait a minute.... >.< That is still a bad stat distribution for a Drow Wizard.

It is a massive fallacy to say that Drow are 32 point equivalent. They get racial advantages that other races do not get. The best possible scenario for this advantage ends up counting for +1 to your casting stat over a Human or Half Elf. Compare that to their relative -2 CON and their much worse feat / enhancement options and the only time you are better off Drow than something else is if you only have 28 point builds.

FranOhmsford
08-25-2012, 09:47 PM
Yes, exactly. This is why a 10 STR, 8 DEX, 18 CON, 18 INT, 8 WIS, 10 CHA Wizard Elf and Drow both cost the same. Wait a minute.... >.<

It is a massive fallacy to say that Drow are 32 point equivalent. They get racial advantages that other races do not get. The best possible scenario for this advantage ends up counting for +1 to your casting stat over a Human or Half Elf. Compare that to their relative -2 CON and their much worse feat / enhancement options and the only time you are better off Drow than something else is if you only have 28 point builds.

I'd love to know how you're getting 18 base Con on an Elf or Drow?

Artificer and Rogue Mechanic btw do benefit from Drow base stats - Elf is significantly inferior here.

Human and H-Elf especially have nice advantages whatever class/prestige you play.
Warforged have Reconstruct - WF FavSouls still stand strong {So long as Healer's Friend etc. are working}.
H-Orcs have Hefty bonuses for Str based Two Handed Builds.

Elves, Dwarves, Halflings however.....

Main Builds for Drow = Two Handed Paladins, Rogue Mechs/Artis, Sorcs and Souls.

Explain to us all how Elf, Dwarf or Halfling is better for any of these builds?

I do believe that Elven Arcanum requires Wizard - Sorc won't do!

THOTHdha
08-25-2012, 09:59 PM
I'd love to know how you're getting 18 base Con on an Elf or Drow?

heh, Hit enter before rereading that. >.< But not before you quoted me.


Artificer and Rogue Mechanic btw do benefit from Drow base stats - Elf is significantly inferior here.
I play a Drow Artificer. And I have to say, Half Elf or Warforged is entirely superior. The trap that is Combat Archery and Improved Precise Shot while keeping high INT is very, very bad. As far as Rogue Mechanics go.... well, they are just very, very poor choices in the current build of DDO.


Main Builds for Drow = Two Handed Paladins, Rogue Mechs/Artis, Sorcs and Souls.

Explain to us all how Elf, Dwarf or Halfling is better for any of these builds?

I do believe that Elven Arcanum requires Wizard - Sorc won't do!

Elven Arcanum also requires that you be an Elf, not a Drow. Drow can get Elven Arcane Fluidity, which.... is not even close to the same.

Sorcs get +2 Charisma, verses the +1 from Human and Half Elf. In the vast majority of cases the feat an enhancements will be far superior to the +1 stat point.

Favored Souls.... wow. There is just so much wrong there. First off, Charisma is not a main stat for FvS. Things may changes when the enhancements are redone, but it is way too early to speculate on what might be strong then. As it is now.... there is a very good reason why you don't see any good Drow FvS.

I already addressed Mechanics and Artificers.

And for the final point, I can only assume that by Two Handed Paladins you actually meant Two Weapon Fighting Paladins. Because there is no advantage at all to a Drow 2HF paladin, while it is easier to fit in the feats for a TWF Paladin. I suppose that this might be the only real point where the race is a relative advantage. And even then.... I would have to say that the build is extremely weak in the current build of DDO and you should probably only consider it if you really want to do an ungeared first life of Paladin with the intent to use the 5% healing amplification in a TR.

EDIT: In fact, with regard to Human or Half Elf only being 1 caster stat behind a Drow; Now that you can use an epic feat to get +1 to your caster stat that bonus is entirely negated, while also not being suffered with the Drow penalties.

FestusHood
08-25-2012, 11:05 PM
.


I play a Drow Artificer. And I have to say, Half Elf or Warforged is entirely superior. The trap that is Combat Archery and Improved Precise Shot while keeping high INT is very, very bad. As far as Rogue Mechanics go.... well, they are just very, very poor choices in the current build of DDO.

I already addressed Mechanics and Artificers.

And for the final point, I can only assume that by Two Handed Paladins you actually meant Two Weapon Fighting Paladins. Because there is no advantage at all to a Drow 2HF paladin, while it is easier to fit in the feats for a TWF Paladin. I suppose that this might be the only real point where the race is a relative advantage. And even then.... I would have to say that the build is extremely weak in the current build of DDO and you should probably only consider it if you really want to do an ungeared first life of Paladin with the intent to use the 5% healing amplification in a TR.

EDIT: In fact, with regard to Human or Half Elf only being 1 caster stat behind a Drow; Now that you can use an epic feat to get +1 to your caster stat that bonus is entirely negated, while also not being suffered with the Drow penalties.

I don't agree that you really explained anything about drow mechanics, other than just saying they are a very poor choice. Not talking artificer here, but specifically mechanics, (poor man's artificer basically) <controversial statement here. I would actually say a rogue mechanic is probably the single best class where every stat advantage of the drow can be used to it's fullest. I have a drow mechanic and i was able to start with an 18 in both dex and intelligence. Racial dex enhancements mean you can level up in intelligence for extra crossbow damage, with the added bonus that you will never, ever botch a trap. Any extra charisma is useful for umd, and skills like bluff or diplomacy if you use them.

Also the main advantage of a drow paladin two weapon fighter is that they can reach both the 17 dex and 20 charisma required to optimize this build far easier than any other race.

And just to mention about the lack of useful racial enhancements for drow, I personally don't find it that big a deal as there are usually more useful class enhancements than i am able to take anyway.

SirValentine
08-26-2012, 02:50 AM
Also, if you're planning to go Assassin, as I did, those extra 2 points of INT are pretty nice. Higher DC = Good Times.


For classes like Wiz, Sorc, Bard, Arti, Drow can actually give 1 higher of Int or Cha. That may or may not be worth it for people.

But Drow has no such advantage for Rogue, as Half-Elf can get an equally high Int, while having +2 Con and 4 more stat points besides.

Entelech
08-26-2012, 04:23 AM
Main Builds for Drow = Two Handed Paladins, Rogue Mechs/Artis, Sorcs and Souls.

Explain to us all how Elf, Dwarf or Halfling is better for any of these builds?

Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings are also considered inferior choices for most builds. Saying that Drow are almost as good as another bad choice doesn't really advance your argument.

Even ignoring your gaffe about Elven Arcanum and assuming you mean Two WEAPON Paladins, how many Drow do you see running around who aren't Sorcerers, Wizards, or Bards?

There's a reason.

Entelech
08-26-2012, 04:36 AM
Oh, and just to explain something about Favored Souls.

Most of them use Charisma as a dump stat.

All they use Charisma for is a few extra spell points. So they make sure they can get to a 19 with a cheap tome and an item, by level 20, then stop.

Wisdom determines save DC for their spells so that is what they max out.

Thus Favored Souls rely on Wisdom, Strength and Constitution for almost every possible variant build...and those happen to be exactly the three stats Drow suck at.

Oh, and just to put the icing on the cake, the Vulkoor scorpion pet is unimaginably gimp. If you're a Drow Favored Soul, you are doing something horribly wrong.

FestusHood
08-26-2012, 04:46 AM
For classes like Wiz, Sorc, Bard, Arti, Drow can actually give 1 higher of Int or Cha. That may or may not be worth it for people.

But Drow has no such advantage for Rogue, as Half-Elf can get an equally high Int, while having +2 Con and 4 more stat points besides.

You have to realize that this is the new player advice part of the forum and also that the op only started playing recently. It may not be safe to assume that he has either 32 point builds or half elves available. Also a half elf can start with an 18 intelligence as a rogue or a caster, plus add one enhancement point to it. So if a helf can do that as a rogue he can do it as a sorc or wiz as well. Same goes for charisma. Whether it leads to an extra modifier point or not depends on how easily you can get a plus 2 tome, since plus ones are pretty easy to get. I can tell you that personally Plus 2 tomes were out of my reach until my character was well into the teens in levels.

Also just now playing around in the character planner i could reach 18 int and 18 dex on a 32 pt helf with nothing left over. On my 28 point drow i reached those numbers and still had 8 build points left.

SirValentine
08-26-2012, 05:09 AM
Also a half elf can start with an 18 intelligence as a rogue or a caster, plus add one enhancement point to it. So if a helf can do that as a rogue he can do it as a sorc or wiz as well. Same goes for charisma.


For caster Int or Cha:
- Drow starts 2 ahead
- Human or Half-elf gets +1 from Adaptability
- So Drow ends up 1 point ahead.

For Rogue Int (or Cha, but that doesn't affect DC of Assasinate or trap skills or Reflex saves or skill points):
- Drow starts 2 ahead
- Half-elf gets +1 from Adaptability AND +1 from Dilletante
- So Half-elf gets just as high as Drow.

Dilletante doesn't stack with class stat enhancements, but Rogue doesn't get class bonuses to Int, whereas casters do get their class-relevant stat increases to Int or Cha.

It's arguable for Drow on casters, as that +1 to casting stat might matter to some more than the other benefits. But if you have Half-Elf, the higher DC-relevant stat argument doesn't apply for Rogues.

FestusHood
08-26-2012, 05:48 AM
For caster Int or Cha:
- Drow starts 2 ahead
- Human or Half-elf gets +1 from Adaptability
- So Drow ends up 1 point ahead.

For Rogue Int (or Cha, but that doesn't affect DC of Assasinate or trap skills or Reflex saves or skill points):
- Drow starts 2 ahead
- Half-elf gets +1 from Adaptability AND +1 from Dilletante
- So Half-elf gets just as high as Drow.

Dilletante doesn't stack with class stat enhancements, but Rogue doesn't get class bonuses to Int, whereas casters do get their class-relevant stat increases to Int or Cha.

It's arguable for Drow on casters, as that +1 to casting stat might matter to some more than the other benefits. But if you have Half-Elf, the higher DC-relevant stat argument doesn't apply for Rogues.

I don't have helves so i didn't know that about their dilly feat. Looking it up on the wiki i see that the intelligence enhancement comes if you choose the wizard dilly. Isn't that kind of wasted unless you totally ignore umd? And it won't help you with divine wands/scrolls.

SirValentine
08-26-2012, 07:16 AM
Looking it up on the wiki i see that the intelligence enhancement comes if you choose the wizard dilly. Isn't that kind of wasted unless you totally ignore umd? And it won't help you with divine wands/scrolls.


Also comes with Arti, not just Wiz. Arti actually gives you +2 on your UMD and +1 caster level for those divine scrolls.

FestusHood
08-26-2012, 07:44 AM
I looked at the artificer dilly and didn't see it having an intelligence enhancement. Not saying you are wrong the wiki probably is. In fact i can't even find an artificer dilly under the main listing of helf enhancements, only in the section that specifically lists the dillys.

Still i never really claimed that drow are the master race, only that they're not utterly gimp in every case as some people claim they are. Anyone who claims that, is using some min-maxing standard that can just as easily apply in reverse given the drow's racial stat advantages.

Alrik_Fassbauer
08-26-2012, 09:17 AM
I like Drow because of the way they look like - and no, I'm not one of those in the "cool !" faction. I just like them because they look ... "different".

I could hardly ever play a Dwarf. Dwarves just don't fir into my playing style. Same with Warforged Ones.

Elves and Drow instead are my favourite characters, so I exclusively play them, so far. One day I'll try out Half-Elves, too.

As a side note, Dürgar are more or less basically the dwarven equivalent to Drow - judging from the looks alone. Not the stats or anything else.

bartharok
08-26-2012, 09:45 AM
dont know if this has been discussed earlier, since i didnt bother to check, but as far as i know the stat points get progressively more expensive. By that i mean that getting from 10-12 costs 2 points, and getting from uhh.. 14-16 costs 4. or some such. That would mean that (not counting con) a drow would actually have more stat points to use than a regular human 32pt build (do correct me if im wrong)

UnderwearModel
08-26-2012, 12:27 PM
Since I can put charisma to 20 as a first level drow, i go with

1. Pure Sorceror just to play once in awhile. It is always nice to play a squishy character that you realize how good your self healing WF sorcerors are
2. Pure Bard (who doesn't need a haggle bot?)
3. Bard/Rogue because UMD really helps make this a jack of all trades character, but is still squishy.

I suppose a drow favored soul would be good since it is charisma based. But I only play human favored souls so far.

If you enjoy the character, then play the character.

SirValentine
08-26-2012, 12:48 PM
I suppose a drow favored soul would be good since it is charisma based.


Charisma-based FvS? Sounds like a very poor plan. Wis, Str, or even Con would be far better choices.

FranOhmsford
08-26-2012, 12:49 PM
heh, Hit enter before rereading that. >.< But not before you quoted me.


I play a Drow Artificer. And I have to say, Half Elf or Warforged is entirely superior. The trap that is Combat Archery and Improved Precise Shot while keeping high INT is very, very bad. As far as Rogue Mechanics go.... well, they are just very, very poor choices in the current build of DDO.

I accepted that H-Elves, Warforged, Humans aye and even Halflings are better Artificers than Drow - Although not by as much as you seem to believe - On the other hand Dwarves and Elves are significantly weaker as are H-Orcs.
Drow is a good choice for Arti in my view.
The only bad choices are Elf, Dwarf and H-Orc.

Rogue Mechs are a lot better now - Point Blank Shot buff + The synergy with Arti for multiclassing!

Elven Arcanum also requires that you be an Elf, not a Drow. Drow can get Elven Arcane Fluidity, which.... is not even close to the same.

Yes I know - My point was that Elven Arcanum does not help ELF SORCS - Making Drow the better choice for this class.

Sorcs get +2 Charisma, verses the +1 from Human and Half Elf. In the vast majority of cases the feat an enhancements will be far superior to the +1 stat point.

This ^ does not make Drow BAD as Sorcs - Just not quite as good a min/max choice as Humans/H-Elves

Favored Souls.... wow. There is just so much wrong there. First off, Charisma is not a main stat for FvS. Things may changes when the enhancements are redone, but it is way too early to speculate on what might be strong then. As it is now.... there is a very good reason why you don't see any good Drow FvS.

I see quite a few Drow Souls personally - I'm also not sure on your definition of "Good".

I already addressed Mechanics and Artificers.

No...You didn't

And for the final point, I can only assume that by Two Handed Paladins you actually meant Two Weapon Fighting Paladins. Because there is no advantage at all to a Drow 2HF paladin, while it is easier to fit in the feats for a TWF Paladin. I suppose that this might be the only real point where the race is a relative advantage. And even then.... I would have to say that the build is extremely weak in the current build of DDO and you should probably only consider it if you really want to do an ungeared first life of Paladin with the intent to use the 5% healing amplification in a TR.

Yes I meant Two Weapon - If I typed two handed it was by mistake and I apologise - I wouldn't make a Two Weapon Fighting Pally myself {Far too feat intensive} of any kind BUT I read these forums enough to know that Drow is indeed a good choice for this build.

EDIT: In fact, with regard to Human or Half Elf only being 1 caster stat behind a Drow; Now that you can use an epic feat to get +1 to your caster stat that bonus is entirely negated, while also not being suffered with the Drow penalties.


Drow do need better enhancements it's true.
Making it so you can pick one from Int/Dex and Cha instead of just Dex would be the main thing.

Humans and their extra feat is a massive benefit on many builds.
H-Elves and dilletante is HUGE BUT I feel that this impacts Elves far more than it does Drow.

Of course you didn't answer my final question either - Elves, Dwarves, H-Orcs and Halflings are all significantly weaker than Drow on those builds I listed - Prove me wrong!
P.S. Halflings do make extremely good Artis - I know - I have one.

Conncetchathac
08-26-2012, 01:26 PM
Okay, umm wow. First off, I noticed some blasting over a comment that said that Drow make good two-handed weapon Paladins. According to a guide that was recommended on page one, the author of the guide says that Drow are good at both two-handed and two-weapon fighting. And if I understand the color-coding right, on both subclasses the drow is among the better choices with human being the equal choice in the THF and having no equal in the TWF.

Here are both links:

Two-Weapon[/url

[url=http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2804563&postcount=19]Two-Handed (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2916014&postcount=137)

Second, I see a lot of people saying that this race is better than that race and at this class because the better race has this but I don't see any comparing or contrasting with what exactly makes them better, although there was the post where someone mentioned that they put a 32-point Helf and a 28-point Drow into the same build and the Drow not only had points leftover, but had 8 of them. As mentioned, I am new, so I don't know how big of a deal that may or may not be but I am sure that means there is 8 points that can go into other stats or just super buff one or two of the stats.

For those who explained the Drow racial boosts and what helps them with what class, thanks.

FrozenNova
08-26-2012, 01:48 PM
Second, I see a lot of people saying that this race is better than that race and at this class because the better race has this but I don't see any comparing or contrasting with what exactly makes them better, although there was the post where someone mentioned that they put a 32-point Helf and a 28-point Drow into the same build and the Drow not only had points leftover, but had 8 of them. As mentioned, I am new, so I don't know how big of a deal that may or may not be but I am sure that means there is 8 points that can go into other stats or just super buff one or two of the stats.

I posted precisely why Drow are rarely the best at anything - besides their stat bonuses, they don't have any racial bonuses in a meaningful sense. Their spell resistance is too low to be of any use while shuriken expertise is just gravy. They have racial bonuses to rapiers and shortswords, which is why rogue is listed as a recommended class - but one could just go human and pick up khopesh with the spare feat.

Their stat distribution is all they have going for them.
a) They can reach 20 int or charisma, while a human or helf can only reach 19. If that constitutes an extra DC, that's slightly meaningful.
b) In builds which invest significantly in two of their bonus stats for the purpose of reaching specific benchmarks, e.g. twf paladins (gtwf and divine might), artificers (imp precise shot and max int), the drow stat distribution makes it easier to hit everything on the list. Drow are arguably the only race that can feasibly hit DM4 as a twf paladin without undue sacrifice.

The example of identical builds does not really apply. Look at the end results of both builds. In very few cases is the drow definitively better.

tihocan's guides are old and orientated towards new player levelling. A thf drow paladin would make no sense right now.

AbyssalMage
08-26-2012, 02:02 PM
Of course you didn't answer my final question either - Elves, Dwarves, H-Orcs and Halflings are all significantly weaker than Drow on those builds I listed - Prove me wrong!
P.S. Halflings do make extremely good Artis - I know - I have one.
Trying to figure out what builds your talking about. Reread page 2 and 3 and not sure what specific builds you are referencing that those races are "bad" vs. Drow for class choice.

FestusHood
08-26-2012, 02:47 PM
The example of identical builds does not really apply. Look at the end results of both builds. In very few cases is the drow definitively better.

tihocan's guides are old and orientated towards new player levelling. A thf drow paladin would make no sense right now.

The example of identical builds either applies, or doesn't. It doesn't only apply when it works against the drow, but not when it works in their favor.

Of characters i've made so far i have 2 humans, 2 elves, 2 drow, 2 dwarves, 3 halflings. I didn't actually set out to have parity, i just like trying different things. I'm finally going to unlock 32 point builds on my first server basically the next time i play. I already know the first thing i'll try. It will be an elven fighter with the displacement dragonmark. Why, because i'm not afraid.

Again, i don't really think the idea of looking at the end result as the only qualifying factor, to be the best way a new player should make decisions.

FrozenNova
08-26-2012, 03:03 PM
Again, i don't really think the idea of looking at the end result as the only qualifying factor, to be the best way a new player should make decisions.

I didn't mean anything like that;
I meant, look at the final stat lineup in each case. Yes, some specific builds can get a lot out of making use of the drow's lowered cost in three stats. But, fill in all the stat points, and you'll find that the drow's stat advantage is rarely that big.

I read through the thread again and can't find the specific post the OP's referring to, so I can't provide an example, but it's nonsense to aim for identical stats then state that because drow has many leftover points it must be at a huge advantage. Stats are placed with the race in mind.

Angelus_dead
08-26-2012, 03:04 PM
According to a guide that was recommended on page one, the author of the guide says that Drow are good at both two-handed and two-weapon fighting.
The pages you link to don't say that Drow are good at two-handed and two-weapon fighting. Maybe you're a bit confused because you're looking at specific builds of a specific class, and then generalizing the suggested race there as recommended in general.

Anyway, keep in mind that aside from a kind of S&B tank, Paladin is a weak class. Someone being the best TWF Paladin doesn't mean a lot when TWF Paladins aren't good to start with.

FestusHood
08-26-2012, 03:11 PM
I didn't mean anything like that;
I meant, look at the final stat lineup in each case. Yes, some specific builds can get a lot out of making use of the drow's lowered cost in three stats. But, fill in all the stat points, and you'll find that the drow's stat advantage is rarely that big.

I read through the thread again and can't find the specific post the OP's referring to, so I can't provide an example, but it's nonsense to aim for identical stats then state that because drow has many leftover points it must be at a huge advantage. Stats are placed with the race in mind.

Yeah that's one of my posts. I'm finding that having a low post count and no fancy graphics by my name works kind of like an invisibility spell on the forums.

I used the example of a repeater rogue mechanic, one of the places where i think a drow can shine. A half-elf 32 pts can reach 18 dex and 18 int with no build points left. My drow was able to make both those numbers with 8 points left. Because not only do the enhanced stats increase the maximum, they decrease the cost in build points before that as well.

edgarallanpoe
08-26-2012, 03:16 PM
I always laugh when I hear all of the negativity towards Drow. I have been told time and time again how bad they are. So far I have had 2. 1 Monk and the other an Assassin. Both are great toons and viable in *any* quest. I have already TRd the monk and the first life assassin is at 24th level.

First life...starting stats for the assassin. Good luck getting these with any 32 pt character. Plenty of str to have adequate dps while aggroed, 435 hp, UMD high enough for "no fail" heal scrolls, maxed out skills in almost every category (I think I may have slightly less in Diplo). This is a fantastic character that is more than capable of soloing and a massive dps boon in any party with a meat shield. :) With a radiance weapon equipped it is insanely fun to play. Hell...I have mid 400hp and I never even bothered to make a MinII HP item from the Shroud

14
16
12
16
8
14

The +2 to hit and +2 to damage with rapiers and ss essentially make her str 18 with those weapons.

Is she the uber, end all be all of assassins? No... Is she viable in any content and fantastically fun to play? Absolutely...

FestusHood
08-26-2012, 03:25 PM
Actually Drow have the highest ranged DPS among non-ranged spec characters...! For some reason, not many people know that. Even Drows don't seem to bother to carry the gear to allow them to do that: it's almost as if DDO players don't value ranging.

Thanks for reminding me, I'd actually completely forgotten about the shuriken proficiency. Going to make an improved cursespewing returning shuriken of improved shattermantle for my drow sorc.

Groovy

FrozenNova
08-26-2012, 03:29 PM
Yeah that's one of my posts. I'm finding that having a low post count and no fancy graphics by my name works kind of like an invisibility spell on the forums.

I used the example of a repeater rogue mechanic, one of the places where i think a drow can shine. A half-elf 32 pts can reach 18 dex and 18 int with no build points left. My drow was able to make both those numbers with 8 points left. Because not only do the enhanced stats increase the maximum, they decrease the cost in build points before that as well.

Yes, of course.
What I mean is, the comparison isn't between an 10/18/12/18/8/10 drow and an 8/18/8/18/8/8 half elf. That's a silly comparison because the second character doesn't exist.
It's between an 10/18/12/18/8/10 drow and an 8/18/14/16/8/8 half elf, which is a much closer comparison.
Granted, half elf isn't a great choice for rogue since they don't get much out of dilettante besides more health, but compare to human and suddenly you can fit in a highly significant feat like precision or combat archery, which you would otherwise have to miss. You don't miss a skillpoint since humans get a bonus, and the +1 damage mod from the extra int with mechanic is nothing compared to +1[W] or 3d6 sneak or 25% fort bypass or toughness or whatever you would otherwise be missing.

Assuming the feat lineup would be something like this, with the tenth feat available only to a human:
1 rapid reload
2 rapid shot
3 point blank shot
4 precise shot
5 imp precise shot
6 improved critical
7 toughness
8 combat archery
9 improved sneak attack
10 precision

Aashrym
08-26-2012, 04:15 PM
Since I can put charisma to 20 as a first level drow, i go with

1. Pure Sorceror just to play once in awhile. It is always nice to play a squishy character that you realize how good your self healing WF sorcerors are
2. Pure Bard (who doesn't need a haggle bot?)
3. Bard/Rogue because UMD really helps make this a jack of all trades character, but is still squishy.

I suppose a drow favored soul would be good since it is charisma based. But I only play human favored souls so far.

If you enjoy the character, then play the character.

FvS isn't CHA based. Going drow would be more beneficial for a TWF FvS which has an easier time with the TWF feat req's and the INT bonus really just gives them a skill point and that would come with human anyway. The CHA bonus is almost negligible.

SirValentine
08-26-2012, 04:20 PM
Going to make an improved cursespewing returning shuriken of improved shattermantle for my drow sorc.


Shuriken are loads of fun!

Personally, I have a +0 Metalline Flametouched Iron Shuriken, in case anyone asks me link my DR breaker.

Aashrym
08-26-2012, 04:24 PM
For classes like Wiz, Sorc, Bard, Arti, Drow can actually give 1 higher of Int or Cha. That may or may not be worth it for people.

But Drow has no such advantage for Rogue, as Half-Elf can get an equally high Int, while having +2 Con and 4 more stat points besides.

It's the bonus to DEX for TWF feat req's plus the INT bonus plus the CHA bonus for some skills including UMD. Rogues use all 3 stats and still need more for STR and CON. Even WIS is used by rogues even tho most dump stat it.

That helf isn't getting equally high INT, DEX, and CHA; and if he's using his adaptability for it he's also missing using adaptability on another stat for an opportunity cost.

The benefit of the stat spread isn't a slightly higher score in some cases, it's also getting multiple stats up more cheaply on builds who make use of many stats. The stats can work for many builds. Some of those builds do currently suck but it's the enhancements, not the stat spread, causing that issue.

SirValentine
08-26-2012, 04:25 PM
Granted, half elf isn't a great choice for rogue since they don't get much out of dilettante besides more health


???

Before I did my Rogue Assasin life, I looked at all my options, and Half-elf clearly came out on top for me.

Drow & Half-elf get the same highest possible Int, ahead of all other races, but Half-elf are ahead 2 Con, plus better enhancement options.

A bonus feat from Human is nice, but I didn't want to sacrifice a point of Assasinate DC for it.

FrozenNova
08-26-2012, 04:30 PM
???

Before I did my Rogue Assasin life, I looked at all my options, and Half-elf clearly came out on top for me.

Drow & Half-elf get the same highest possible Int, ahead of all other races, but Half-elf are ahead 2 Con, plus better enhancement options.

A bonus feat from Human is nice, but I didn't want to sacrifice a point of Assasinate DC for it.

Mechanic, explicitly - they get an extra point of damage but that's not worth the feat.

SirValentine
08-26-2012, 04:38 PM
That helf isn't getting equally high INT, DEX, and CHA;


Equally high (maximum possible) Int, just barely enough Dex to qualify for TWF line, and 2 points lower Cha (only 1 point of modifier lower) more than compensated for by free feat that gives +2 to UMDing scrolls.



and if he's using his adaptability for it he's also missing using adaptability on another stat for an opportunity cost.


It's hard for me to view using Adaptability to raise your primary stat as some sad lost opportunity to raise a stat you don't care about.

FestusHood
08-26-2012, 04:39 PM
The benefit of the stat spread isn't a slightly higher score in some cases, it's also getting multiple stats up more cheaply on builds who make use of many stats. The stats can work for many builds. Some of those builds do currently suck but it's the enhancements, not the stat spread, causing that issue.

Everything is relative, my son. One man's sucking is another man's blowing. Er, no wait..uh..one man's..no...ah never mind.

Maybe we can all take something from this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9mf3Bypyk8

Conncetchathac
08-26-2012, 05:52 PM
Okay, umm basically I have more than a few questions about Drow. I saw that their recommended classes are basically Wizard, Sorcerer and Rogue. My first question why Rogue but not Ranger? Do the racial bonuses really make that much of a difference? Two, I saw the icon pic for Favored Soul had a Drow in it. So if a Drow is used for a posterboy of sorts, why isn't Favored Soul a recommended class for it? Also, how do you guys believe a Drow Ranger would do in general? By that I mean that I'm not asking for builds or anything, just what would you guys consider to be a pro or con of the Drow. Note: I have extremely limited knowledge of D&D in general, both DDO and P&P and it is pretty much limited to about thirty hours or so of play on DDO.

I am confused because this is all I asked. The first one was answered. The second one, kinda. The third one, well I saw it answered alongside the first one so I guess that's the same as "answered".


The pages you link to don't say that Drow are good at two-handed and two-weapon fighting. Maybe you're a bit confused because you're looking at specific builds of a specific class, and then generalizing the suggested race there as recommended in general.

Anyway, keep in mind that aside from a kind of S&B tank, Paladin is a weak class. Someone being the best TWF Paladin doesn't mean a lot when TWF Paladins aren't good to start with.

Well everything was color-coded when listing Alignment, Races and Solobility. Going off what I saw, Red is "No. Just no.", Orange is "Eh, you can try but wouldn't suggest it", Yellow is "Okay, getting better" and Green seems to still be universal for "Good." There is every chance I could be mistaken.

But like FestusHood said, "It just doesn't matter because all the good looking girls will still go out with one of the Mohawks."

edgarallanpoe
08-26-2012, 06:54 PM
Drow & Half-elf get the same highest possible Int, ahead of all other races, but Half-elf are ahead 2 Con, plus better enhancement options.

How is this? Drow can get to 20 and a helf only 18 (19 with the enhancement)

Drow rogue

12 pts = 16 dex and int
20 pts = 18 dex int

Helf

20pts = 16 dex and int
32 pts = 18 dex and int

SirValentine
08-26-2012, 07:34 PM
How is this? Drow can get to 20 and a helf only 18 (19 with the enhancement)


Dilly enhancement and Adaptability enhancement.

edgarallanpoe
08-26-2012, 08:09 PM
Dilly enhancement and Adaptability enhancement.

Ahh....Ok. So taking a helf rogue with a caster dilly gets you an extra +1 int, but would that be useful? You wouldn't take that if you were already a caster would you?

Ryiah
08-26-2012, 09:24 PM
I'm just not aware of any builds that require massive Dex, Int and Charisma at the same time, while dumping Con, Wis and Str.

Rogue-based builds are generally the ones that get the most benefit. A friend of mine built a Rogue Assassin build using those Epic Midnight Greetings. He was mostly aiming to tank so he mostly went with Dex. But he also benefited from Int (Epic MGs use Int to determine enhancement bonus) and Cha (for boosting Intim and UMD). Granted this was back during the period when you could hold aggro using Intim almost exclusively.



Also, while Drow have some of the best Spell Resistance in game, it's not all that useful. When Kobold Shamans in Waterworks are 5 levels higher than the party, and the problem ramps up from there, Spell Resistance is unreliable, working perhaps 20% of the time. You're far better off just getting better saving throws than relying on SR.

It ends up being more than 20%. At high level content, on Elite, the SR appears to handle about half or more of the incoming SR-effected spells. The reason it appears to do less is because most spells aren't stopped by SR. Also you can push it up higher now thanks to EDs.

Also, as a heads up, CR is not equal to level. Challenge rating is based off of multiple factors and level is only one of them.

Therigar
08-26-2012, 10:31 PM
A Drow can also be superior to a 32-point build since it is technically 34-points (assuming I'm doing my math right). The problem is taking advantage of the three stats that are boosted. Generally if I can take advantage of at least two then I prefer to be a Drow for the Spell Resistance.

This is correct -- drow are >32 point builds (although even 34 points is too few depending on stat distributions). Any other perspective ignores simple math. The secret is in finding how to maximize whatever advantage the three boosted stats provide.

Unfortunately, that is extremely difficult because there are virtually no classes or class combinations that gain from a synergy of INT, DEX and CHA and literally every class or combination suffers from taking a hit to CON.

The result is that the theoretical >32 point builds just do not get players anything that is worth playing. And, when the builds come down to something that is worth playing it is almost always the case that a different race gives more with a 32 point equivalent. When that is not the case it is always a case that there is something that is at least equal -- and in those cases the racial benefits of the other races are often superior.

If DDO did not depend so much on CON then drow could be genuinely powerful. But, DDO does rely on CON (or at least the player community does -- which is effectively the same thing). What character class combo can you think of that works with a 28 point drow running 8 STR 17 DEX 10 CON 17 INT 8 WIS 17 CHA? That would be a 41 point human build. But, it is totally meaningless because there is no character class combination that would benefit from such a stat distribution and prove useful in DDO.

About the only class that could gain from such a stat distribution would be a rogue. But, since there is no real role-playing in DDO having a high CHA will be mostly just a waste. And, the low CON is fine in P&P but in DDO it means no combat role because there's too much risk of simply being crushed at first contact.

Aashrym
08-26-2012, 11:13 PM
Equally high (maximum possible) Int, just barely enough Dex to qualify for TWF line, and 2 points lower Cha (only 1 point of modifier lower) more than compensated for by free feat that gives +2 to UMDing scrolls.

So your helf is taking the wizard dilettante for the INT bonus AND the artificer dilettante for the UMD bonus?


It's hard for me to view using Adaptability to raise your primary stat as some sad lost opportunity to raise a stat you don't care about.

You mean like STR or CON on a class that does a fair bit of melee? ;)


So....

Drow

STR 11 (3 AP)
DEX 15 (5 AP)
CON 14 (10 AP)
INT 18 (10 AP)
WIS 8
CHA 10

Helf with Artie Dilettante for UMD +2

STR 10 (2 AP)
DEX 15 (8 AP)
CON 14 (6 AP)
INT 18 (16 AP) (19 with 2 AP spent)
WIS 8
CHA 8

Helf with Wizard Dilettante for INT +1

STR 14 (6 AP)
DEX 15 (8 AP)
CON 14 (6 AP)
INT 16 (10 AP, planning on spending 4 AP for 18)
WIS 8
CHA 10 (2 AP for the same bonus)


Look at the lack of any real difference in the drow vs the helf with arti dilettante. The 28 point drow vs the 32 point helf has little difference. The stat spread works and this isn't the drow's disadvantage, as I have been saying. The drow's disadvantage is with the enhancements, made much more clear looking at the wizard dilettante using enhancements to catch up to the racial bonus, leaving the only advantage the drow had as 4 more AP to spend.


Drow

STR 9 (1 AP)
DEX 15 (5 AP)
CON 12 (6 AP)
INT 20 (16 AP)
WIS 8
CHA 10

Helf with Wizard Dilettante for INT +1

STR 8
DEX 15 (8 AP)
CON 14 (6 AP)
INT 18 (16 AP, planning on spending 4 AP for 20)
WIS 8
CHA 10 (2 AP for the same bonus)

Pushing that INT score and we're looking at 20 hp out of hundreds vs 4 AP, still with similar stats; and again it's the AP making the difference instead of the stat spread. Without the AP that helf cannot achieve the same INT.

Drow enhancements suck. The stat bonuses do not give them a disadvantage on all builds.

Weemadarthur
08-27-2012, 12:38 AM
O.K read through the thread and really feel the need to point out something that seems to have been missed by most of the everything is better than a drow brigade so far in this thread. 1st please go back and look at which forum your in. It clearly states "new player advice and guidence" so lets start there.

Comparing drow to 32 point builds is irrelivent as new players are unlikely to have 32 point builds open. So lets be realistic and compare the drow (which at 400 favor is easy to get) to a 28 point toon rather than a 32 point one. Also lets forget for the time being the races and classes that need to be bought from the store as its also unlikely that a new player will go vip straight off the bat or have the tp to unlock them (especially as any tp they do get will be better spent on adventure packs).

So with this criteria in place lets ask the question again. Is the drow any good?

The simple answer is yes it will be a better choice half the time than its 28 point counterpart. For any caster class the drow will be considerably better and more importantly will be at leat almost as good as its 32 point counterpart when it is eventually unlocked. It will also make a good rogue, ranger or even palli that will still function well at end game. Will it be as good as the 36 point multi tr toons at end game? Quite obviously not but it will still be able to do the job to an adequate degree and more importantly will enable a newish player to make a good character that can unlock 32 point builds and veteran status quite easily.

Now to the ops question regarding drow rangers. I personally wouldnt roll a drow ranger for the same reason I wouldnt roll a 28 point one. Rangers have imo too large a stat spread to make a good one with 28 points and the drows stat bonuses dont really effect the stats that make a ranger better. That said what I stated is just my personal oppinion. Just because I wouldnt do it doesnt mean you cant or shouldnt and as many people have proved over the years it is possible to make an ok ranger with either 28 points or a drow.

In short (and imo) the simple way of looking at the drow vs "x" race for character creation is when compared against 28 point equivilents the drow will allways be at least as good (if not better) than most other races providing your not aiming at being a meatshield. Stay away from the melee classes (where even with 28 points a dwarf or human will be as good if not better).

MY get out clause for those about to start flaming!!!

One thing to take into account though is that although what I said above is true and valid it only holds up for your toons 1st life. Once you reroll your toon the benefit then will go toward most other races and all that you have read previously about drow vs 32 pointers comes into play.

Hope that helps

Weem

Angelus_dead
08-27-2012, 02:07 AM
The simple answer is yes it will be a better choice half the time than its 28 point counterpart. For any caster class the drow will be considerably better
No. For a caster class it is entirely possible that the greater survivability of Warforged or Human would outweigh the Drow's small edge in Intelligence / Charisma. That's especially the case for newbie players.


Now to the ops question regarding drow rangers. I personally wouldnt roll a drow ranger for the same reason I wouldnt roll a 28 point one. Rangers have imo too large a stat spread to make a good one with 28 points
Stats don't matter a lot to Rangers, but the lack of useful racial AP enhancements does. Elf, halfling, or WF would all have damage bonuses and Drow just don't (unless you go with shortswords, which are inferior)

KillEveryone
08-27-2012, 02:25 AM
I personally just don't care for drow. Don't like their looks. My harry butt looks better than them. Luckily that is on my backside so I can't see it, unlike when I have to look at another player playing a drow. Too scrawny looking. Just as bad as a regular elf.

My preference is human. I like the extra feat for classes like cleric and paladin but I also like human versatility for melee builds if I can fit in the AP.

There are a few builds that I could probably go drow on but I still don't like the looks and will generally find a better race to use, especially since I have 32 pt build from the start.

FestusHood
08-27-2012, 02:47 AM
You kids git to bed!

Just throwing it out that there exist some very special shorswords that you can get from the Three Barrel Cove area. They're called Tiefling blades, or something like that, you can look them up on the wiki. They're special mostly because they give dex for to hit and damage. They also have wounding, and keen on them, as well as having an increased critical threat range(as a rapier). They are min level 4, and if you don't have the pack, i've actually found a couple of them for sale on the auction house, and they weren't expensive.

These blades would be decidedly not awful for a dex based drow.

SirValentine
08-27-2012, 02:58 AM
So your helf is taking the wizard dilettante for the INT bonus AND the artificer dilettante for the UMD bonus?


Just Arti for both.



You mean like STR or CON on a class that does a fair bit of melee? ;)


Nope, I mean like Wis. If a maximum Int build puts Adapability into Int and Con, that is not a waste.



Drow
<snip>
Helf
<snip>


So you can pick the a set of stats that make Half-Elf look bad. You want me to make up a stat spread to make Drow look bad? I could, but that was never my point.



Without the AP that helf cannot achieve the same INT.


Very observant. Half-Elf need to use a couple of available racial enhancements to match maximum Drow Int, very true.



The stat bonuses do not give them a disadvantage on all builds.


Never said they did. My point is that the whole "But Drow can reach higher Int or Cha!" does not apply to Half-Elf Rogues the way it does to Wiz/Sorc/Arti/Bard.

DDO is forgiving enough that you can play ANY class as ANY race, and have a viable character. If you like looking at Drow butts, go for it. I've never said otherwise.

And despite their other drawbacks, Drow do have an advantage in Cha or Int for certain caster classes that can't be matched by any other race.

But not for Rogues, where Half-Elf is more than a match for them. Or for any Int-based or Cha-based build that doesn't get class enhancements to that stat.

FestusHood
08-27-2012, 03:08 AM
I consider it a testament to ddo that 2 people who obviously know what they're talking about cannot definitively prove that one race is flat out superior to another, just different. That's a plus in my book.

Ryiah
08-27-2012, 04:11 AM
What character class combo can you think of that works with a 28 point drow running 8 STR 17 DEX 10 CON 17 INT 8 WIS 17 CHA?

Well for starters, assuming I had a build that could adequately use all three stats, I would not make each one 17. Unless I'm working with a build that only benefits from two stats (like Wizard), I don't push them beyond 1 point per increase. Stopping at 16 gives us enough points to push Con up to 14.

A 14 Con is, in my opinion, an acceptable amount for an experienced player. Not all of us play as min/maxers so I have no trouble using weapons that are not Str-based.

SirValentine
08-27-2012, 05:07 AM
Ahh....Ok. So taking a helf rogue with a caster dilly gets you an extra +1 int, but would that be useful? You wouldn't take that if you were already a caster would you?

It's not useful for casters, because it doesn't stack with class enhancements. But it's useful if you want high Int (or Cha) on a class that DOESN'T get class enhancements for that stat, like Int for a Rogue.

FestusHood
08-27-2012, 05:10 AM
Just whipped up a drow assassin for my own amusement in the character planner. Had lots of odd starting stats cuz plus one tomes are really easy to get, even for a fairly new player. Put all the level ups in dex and took all available dex enhancements to hit 30 dex without items. Entirely based on having a pair of tiefling cove shorswords. Managed to get power attack and 14 con, all with nothing higher than a plus one tome. 14 intelligence may not be high enough to assassinate stuff but i was planning more with dps in mind anyway. Didn't regret any enhancements i took either, plenty of good rogue ones to go with the few good drow ones.

I was thinking i might post it on the build forums with the caveat that it is just for fun/fancy/flavor. The way the forums are though i'd probably get about 47 neg reps and get banned or something.

Emizand
08-27-2012, 05:36 AM
[QUOTE=Entelech;4661335]No.

But because Drow are the only race lacking a 32 point version, every other race is better once 32 point status is unlocked.

[QUOTE]



32 point Hoo = S 8, D16, C 10, I 16, W 8, Ch 16.
28 point drow = S 8, D16, C 14, I 16, W 8, Ch 16.

Yeah, Hoo obviously the better spread there!

Ryiah
08-27-2012, 06:29 AM
The way the forums are though i'd probably get about 47 neg reps and get banned or something.

I turned off the reputation system for a reason. Too many people don't know when negative reputation is truly worth giving or not. In the end people just give reputation based on their own personal opinion so I find it a worthless system.

So in the interest of "flavor" builds (which a lot of people seem to think Drow is only good for), post away!

Therigar
08-27-2012, 06:52 AM
Just throwing it out that there exist some very special shorswords that you can get from the Three Barrel Cove area. They're called Tiefling blades, or something like that, you can look them up on the wiki. They're special mostly because they give dex for to hit and damage. They also have wounding, and keen on them, as well as having an increased critical threat range(as a rapier). They are min level 4, and if you don't have the pack, i've actually found a couple of them for sale on the auction house, and they weren't expensive.

These blades would be decidedly not awful for a dex based drow.

Good call!

Also, people seem to think drow only have short sword racial perks. Not true. They also receive rapier perks. So, not necessary to stick to short swords at all.

Chai
08-27-2012, 07:01 AM
There are two things keeping drow from being the best for stat allocation in many things.

1. Warforged self healing as a caster.

2. Lack of reasons to make dex builds.

The rest comes down to the enhancements, which put them to the bottom of the barrel for melee builds, and average for a caster (where I really think they should shine).

Therigar
08-27-2012, 07:24 AM
Well for starters, assuming I had a build that could adequately use all three stats, I would not make each one 17. Unless I'm working with a build that only benefits from two stats (like Wizard), I don't push them beyond 1 point per increase. Stopping at 16 gives us enough points to push Con up to 14.

A 14 Con is, in my opinion, an acceptable amount for an experienced player. Not all of us play as min/maxers so I have no trouble using weapons that are not Str-based.

Ah, but this is not the question really. It is about gaining the most "build point equivalents" out of the stats.

And, whether to put stats on even or odd numbers is something of a build decision that is highly influenced by tomes, gear and stat increases (both enhancement and level increases).

Odd numbers permit use of +7 stat items. Racial bonuses (enhancements) give +2. Class bonuses (enhancements) give +3. Level bonuses give +6. Epic destinies give another +6. And, epic feats give yet another +1.

Then there are insight and exceptional bonuses to figure into things as well as the occasional +8 stat item to take into account.

People who are afraid of odd stat numbers simply haven't looked far enough forward in a character's build to evaluate best starting numbers.

FWIW, the start numbers could easily be 16 in one of the three stats and 18 in another (leaving the third at 17). It still gets the 41 point human equivalent.

As for 14 CON being enough. That might possibly be true on a class that is first life or that will avoid all melee risk. But, it is not nearly enough for any character that will be in combat on any regular basis.

And, you caveat that it is enough for an experienced player. But that isn't really who we're talking about in the new player forum.

So, what class would you suggest?

Sorcerer? No reason for 16 INT then. Go to 12 INT and raise CHA to 18. Then again, no need for 16 DEX either. What good does it do you? From a practical standpoint you're better off running a 32 point warforged with just a 16 CHA and a higher 18 CON. More HP and self-healing.

Wizard or wizard/rogue? Comments on warforged apply there as well, only it is 18 INT and 18 CON then Insightful Reflex feat so DEX is entirely irrelevant.

So, the decision on class is essential to the discussion. And the point I'm making is that there is no class or class combination that genuinely works in DDO. Thus, the mere fact that we can get up to a 41 point build using drow is meaningless.

Everyone will do what you have done. They will dump one of the stats down because it isn't needed. They will raise DDO specific stats (that is, things DDO game/players demand in order to have reasonable characters) to some minimally acceptable level.

And, when that is done there is no class or class combo that jumps out as being better off when using drow.

That isn't to say that none exist. But, you have to have a really twisted sense of build concepts and be willing to play pretty unusual characters to find them. And, the problem there is one of acceptance by the gaming community.

For example, consider this build:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Artificer Experiment I
Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Monk \ 18 Artificer)
Hit Points: 281
Spell Points: 935
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 17
Will: 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 9 12
Dexterity 17 27
Constitution 15 18
Intelligence 15 21
Wisdom 8 12
Charisma 11 14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse


Level 3 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 4 (Artificer)


Level 5 (Artificer)


Level 6 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Rapid Shot


Level 7 (Artificer)


Level 8 (Artificer)


Level 9 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Maximize Spell


Level 11 (Artificer)


Level 12 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Artificer)


Level 14 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 15 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Artificer)


Level 17 (Artificer)


Level 18 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Precise Shot


Level 19 (Artificer)


Level 20 (Artificer)




That is a 33 point human equivalent build. It operates on the philosophy that it is not going rat-a-tat-tat all of the time but instead plays like a monk most of the time using weapon buffs and handwraps.

Not very likely that people would intentionally design such a thing. In fact, more likely they'd take 2 rogue levels instead of the monk levels and maybe dual wield shortswords or rapiers (or more likely yet, just go rat-a-tat-tat with repeater and rune arm all the time).

And, once the build reincarnates 34 points gives more to work with.

So, all the theory about what could be is meaningless since what actually is likely in real game terms heavily favors almost every other race.

Therigar
08-27-2012, 07:30 AM
Just whipped up a drow assassin for my own amusement in the character planner. Had lots of odd starting stats cuz plus one tomes are really easy to get, even for a fairly new player. Put all the level ups in dex and took all available dex enhancements to hit 30 dex without items. Entirely based on having a pair of tiefling cove shorswords. Managed to get power attack and 14 con, all with nothing higher than a plus one tome. 14 intelligence may not be high enough to assassinate stuff but i was planning more with dps in mind anyway. Didn't regret any enhancements i took either, plenty of good rogue ones to go with the few good drow ones.

I was thinking i might post it on the build forums with the caveat that it is just for fun/fancy/flavor. The way the forums are though i'd probably get about 47 neg reps and get banned or something.

I'd be less worried about the 47 neg reps and being banned than the posts that will point out how a better build can be achieved using half-elf with a useful dilettante and a higher CON.

For almost every stat in the game a 2 point difference one way or the other doesn't really mean much. But, with CON it is different. People go to great lengths to get a +20 HP increase.

The real reason not to post the build is because it is almost certain that a better 32 point half-elf version will be counter posted. ;)

FestusHood
08-27-2012, 07:39 AM
Gonna make a crazy guess that i'm not the only player who doesn't own half elf.

FestusHood
08-27-2012, 08:09 AM
I'd be less worried about the 47 neg reps and being banned than the posts that will point out how a better build can be achieved using half-elf with a useful dilettante and a higher CON.

For almost every stat in the game a 2 point difference one way or the other doesn't really mean much. But, with CON it is different. People go to great lengths to get a +20 HP increase.

The real reason not to post the build is because it is almost certain that a better 32 point half-elf version will be counter posted. ;)

Also wouldn't expect the half elf to be better at what i was trying to do. I wasn't trying to make an optimized character, i just fancied the idea of making a character with dex based damage to see how far it could go. I'm sure there is a much better strength based assassin build that can be made, especially if you have 32 point builds, and lots of choice gear. I, however don't have any of those things.

Like a good little newb i've been using my tp to buy things like packs and the shared bank, i.e. practical things, not luxuries. Someday i'll probably have all those things, but not yet.

And here is the result of my tinkering: str 13 dex 20 con 14 int 14 wis 8 cha 10. That's only after plus one tomes are applied to the original stats. Not talking about epic elite, i'm just talking about the regular 1-20 game, I won't have any problems leveling this build, if i choose to actually make it. Having a terrific reflex save and decent ac is not nothing.

As far as the value of 20 hit points, i appreciate what you're saying. I'm proud to say i've died many times in this game. The thing is, in at least 90% of those occasions, 20 more hp wouldn't have saved me.

licho
08-27-2012, 09:05 AM
Okay, umm basically I have more than a few questions about Drow. I saw that their recommended classes are basically Wizard, Sorcerer and Rogue. My first question why Rogue but not Ranger? Do the racial bonuses really make that much of a difference? Two, I saw the icon pic for Favored Soul had a Drow in it. So if a Drow is used for a posterboy of sorts, why isn't Favored Soul a recommended class for it? Also, how do you guys believe a Drow Ranger would do in general? By that I mean that I'm not asking for builds or anything, just what would you guys consider to be a pro or con of the Drow. Note: I have extremely limited knowledge of D&D in general, both DDO and P&P and it is pretty much limited to about thirty hours or so of play on DDO.

Just answearing the questions:

1. Sometimes what is recommended is based on same old gameplay (like 3 yaers old) so its more theory or devs intencion, which nobody cares to give second though. You for example should never pick premade path in champion creation. And unlike game teaches Wizards are easy to solo, while Barbarinas are hard.

2. As for Drow Rogues:
- Int and Dex is a good stuff for rogues, even cha can be helpful for umd, or social skills.
- Both rapier and shortsword are rogue weapons.

Rangers on the other side dont have much use of int or cha, and may prefer scimiatrs or bows or axes.
Also Rangers get all 2wf feats no matter of ability, so you can roll even dex 8 ranger. (not saying its good idea, evasion and occasional manyshot is still helpfull)

3. Drows may look cooler, especially drow chiks. This is reaspon why they pops on picks. Also its would be weird for Devs to call "Hey our we have poorly designed underpowered race, do you want to buy it maybe?"

4. In case of drows racial bonuses dont make the difference, litterally, drows are very poorly designed and have little to no racial perks. Half Elves and Orcs are the races where race features really make difference. Also WF arcane self healing is a big thing. Otherwise its either borderline ok, or poor.

5. I see no reason to roll Drow Ranger. :-/ You can still do it, the con is -2 to con, but its not so big deal and if you like flavor of Drow go for it. Also there could be a con of lost opportunities. For example going Human gives you:
+ 1 skill point so you can keep umd/trap skills up.
+ 1 to strenght, always good
+ healing ampitude so you can cure more easly
+ racial action boost for awesome Rogue Haste, and human dmg burst combo
+ feat for vanity needs, like IC ranged for ocassional manyshot, Maximize for better cures, or Khopeshes for more dps.


If you want something more optimal then Human or if you feel punk Dwarf.
Even on 28 PT Human ranger with 1 fighter and 1 rogue splash did good job, and i even consider them good starters.

6. There are the rumors of upcoming enhancement changes, maybe the drows will get a cookie there. But i would not hope for that much.

7. As for my Drow experience, i once run a Bard 16 fig 2 rogue 2 Warchanter using rapiers. It was quite good experience, even if not minimaxed. The point is that such build made a use of every drow stat and i dont have 32PB then.

Therigar
08-27-2012, 09:21 AM
Gonna make a crazy guess that i'm not the only player who doesn't own half elf.


And here is the result of my tinkering: str 13 dex 20 con 14 int 14 wis 8 cha 10. That's only after plus one tomes are applied to the original stats.

So, try halfling. Free race to all players. With a 32 point build you get 12, 19, 13, 13, 8, 10 as starting stats and have a build point left over. You get the same DEX racial enhancement to go with the rogue class DEX enhancements. And, you can save a tome since you can take the leftover build point and toss it on INT for 6 extra skill points (4 at L1 and 1 each at L2 & L3).

On top of that, halfling dragonmarks give self healing capability for added survivability and the halfling size bonus grants +1 AC. What you lose out on is to hit and to damage numbers from the drow weapon enhancements. But, those are laughable when you take into account the halfling sneak enhancements (cunning and guile).

But, let's say you don't have 32 point builds. By going 12, 18, 13, 13, 8, 10 you use only 28 build points on a halfling. You save the use of a +1 tome on DEX. You still end up ahead on both to hit and to damage using the halfling cunning and guile enhancements and you still have the halfling healing marks.

In other words, nothing about drow is better than the 28 point halfling to build the same character.

In fact, you could drop the DEX all the way back to 16, drop the meaningless CHA back to 8 and boost INT and CON both to 15. That gives you a better chance to actually succeed in an assassinate, more HP, still more skill points at every level, and with the cunning and guile enhancements still a higher to hit and to damage number.

Absolutely the only thing that will be less is the reflex save. But, nothing in the first life game is going to demand a reflex save where 2 points more will make the difference.

So, even talking 28 point characters the bottom line is that drow is the weaker choice.

Therigar
08-27-2012, 09:43 AM
I've had a lot of negative to say about drow but I do play them.

I don't do it because they are better as a racial choice. I do it because it gives me a flavor to the character.

One of my early favorites was a drow battle cleric -- made well before Turbine went to micro transactions and the Turbine store, when the game was still entirely subscription based.

At the moment I have 1 drow sorcerer in 18 characters. With a 20 CHA, 3 enhancements, +6 stat increase, +3 tome, +7 item, +1 exceptional and +2 enhancement bonus that adds up to 42 CHA on easy to get gear.

A +8 item and +4 tome will bump that to 44. If I could identify a +2 exceptional item that would bump it to 46. I'm not sure that human or half-elf actually match or come out ahead with their ability to gain +1 CHA via enhancements or by spending an epic feat on CHA. My present thinking is that this is, maybe, one of the very few situations where drow is materially better given a very narrow set of parameters.

But, I could easily be convinced otherwise.

Chai
08-27-2012, 09:56 AM
I've had a lot of negative to say about drow but I do play them.

I don't do it because they are better as a racial choice. I do it because it gives me a flavor to the character.

One of my early favorites was a drow battle cleric -- made well before Turbine went to micro transactions and the Turbine store, when the game was still entirely subscription based.

At the moment I have 1 drow sorcerer in 18 characters. With a 20 CHA, 3 enhancements, +6 stat increase, +3 tome, +7 item, +1 exceptional and +2 enhancement bonus that adds up to 42 CHA on easy to get gear.

A +8 item and +4 tome will bump that to 44. If I could identify a +2 exceptional item that would bump it to 46. I'm not sure that human or half-elf actually match or come out ahead with their ability to gain +1 CHA via enhancements or by spending an epic feat on CHA. My present thinking is that this is, maybe, one of the very few situations where drow is materially better given a very narrow set of parameters.

But, I could easily be convinced otherwise.

Helf could have the same cha stat, but to what end? Their caster enhancements are parallel with drow at the bottom of the barrel as well. Human would be one point less of cha, but they would get an extra feat. If not going warforged for the easy self healing button, human is by far the better choice. Using that feat would allow you to take your drow or helf template and fit the wizard past life in with the added feat, for a full +1 DC - the equivilent of 2 cha. If not, what feat would the non-human sorc drop for the wiz past life?

Therigar
08-27-2012, 10:26 AM
Helf could have the same cha stat, but to what end? Their caster enhancements are parallel with drow at the bottom of the barrel as well. Human would be one point less of cha, but they would get an extra feat. If not going warforged for the easy self healing button, human is by far the better choice. Using that feat would allow you to take your drow or helf template and fit the wizard past life in with the added feat, for a full +1 DC - the equivilent of 2 cha. If not, what feat would the non-human sorc drop for the wiz past life?

I don't think I mentioned a wizard past life and there is no need for one. That is just tossing in something that has no real part in the conversation.

Half-elf starts with a lower CHA so has to rely on the human adaptability for a +1 CHA enhancement and also take a +1 CHA feat at either 21 or 24. Otherwise it is perpetually behind the drow CHA. Same for human.

The only benefit of human that I can see is that it gets a free feat at L1 so burning one on CHA at L21 or L24 isn't a big deal.

Otherwise, I am unaware of any enhancements for any of the races (other than elf) that improve DC so saying that half-elf caster enhancements are parallel with drow is meaningless. So are human's.

What human could provide is healing amp, so does half-elf. This could be valued in some cases.

Warforged are 4 points less CHA with no way to catch up and no enhancement boosts to DC at all. But, they have self-healing. Players have to evaluate the importance of that.

But, at the moment, regardless of whether a character has wizard past lives, drow probably give a more reliable path to highest CHA. Whether that really matters much is debatable. I expect that people's views will be highly influenced by their play styles and playing experiences.

Therigar
08-27-2012, 10:29 AM
One more thing. Twisting epic destinies can result in added CHA. Whether that is a useful thing to do is open to debate and I can see many reasons NOT to waste twists on stat points.

Llewndyn
08-27-2012, 10:41 AM
So basically the dislike is that while they get ahead real fast starting wise, every other race is able to catch up or pass when it gets to the later levels?

@Dawnsfire: Thanks for the links, I'll look at them right now.

On a wizard, and I have 36 point builds unlocked.

I did it purely from an aesthetics standpoint. I have seen drow paladins that kick tail, I have made a Warforged bard, I like to try to find odd builds (a drow barb would be cool) and drow much of anything that isn't a caster is an odd build in my opinion.

I will say when you put above is probably the reason for all the hate, that and a poorly built drow is usually the bane of any party, and like a lot of rogues and bards is really easy to mess up, so has a stigma attached to it; that being said the idea of a drow ranger is intriguing. You are getting some good advice on the forums here, which is a blessing not bestowed on a lot of people, so do yourself a favor and read through it and don't get defensive; most of the information you have already been given is spot on.

Now back to my halfling pm/ monk project... :P

Chai
08-27-2012, 10:52 AM
I don't think I mentioned a wizard past life and there is no need for one. That is just tossing in something that has no real part in the conversation.

The wizard past life has everything to do with this conversation, because you are talking about having higher cha - which = higher DC (you certainly arent talking about the marginal mana increase 2 more points of cha gives) - Human gets an added feat which is more relevant than the +1 cha imbalance.


Half-elf starts with a lower CHA so has to rely on the human adaptability for a +1 CHA enhancement and also take a +1 CHA feat at either 21 or 24. Otherwise it is perpetually behind the drow CHA. Same for human.

With human adaptability and either FvS, bard, or paladin dilletante, helf parallels drow in CHA.


The only benefit of human that I can see is that it gets a free feat at L1 so burning one on CHA at L21 or L24 isn't a big deal.

Theres no need to burn a feat at level 21 on one point of cha - they burn that extra feat on wiz past life which puts them ahead of drow on DCs. If not, what feat are you dropping on a drow to gain the wiz past life? Spell pen which DQs you from epic spell pen? spell focus which DQs you from epic spell focus? Human is the superior DC sorc unless you drop spell pen from drow to get the past life.


Otherwise, I am unaware of any enhancements for any of the races (other than elf) that improve DC so saying that half-elf caster enhancements are parallel with drow is meaningless. So are human's.

Its not meaningless simply because it doesnt support your stance on the issue. Helf as ive outlined are parallel to drow in DC, and human is a point ahead -or- several spell pen ahead, however you feat it out.


What human could provide is healing amp, so does half-elf. This could be valued in some cases..

In cases where people didnt go WF for the easy self heal button, yeah. Heal scrolls that hit for more are definately valued.


Warforged are 4 points less CHA with no way to catch up and no enhancement boosts to DC at all. But, they have self-healing. Players have to evaluate the importance of that.

Yeap, its a deilema which is very D&D core like. Choose between -2DC +40 hp +2 fort save and better healing or +2 DC -40 HP -2 fort save and worse healing.


But, at the moment, regardless of whether a character has wizard past lives, drow probably give a more reliable path to highest CHA. Whether that really matters much is debatable. I expect that people's views will be highly influenced by their play styles and playing experiences.

1-2 DC isnt the huge debate it used to be. Most sorcs I see are WF - second most human. I dont see alot of drow sorcs anymore. I see more drow necros due to self healing and increased con in lich form offsetting their con penalty.

Therigar
08-27-2012, 11:06 AM
The wizard past life has everything to do with this conversation

FAIL!

It has nothing to do with the discussion because it isn't needed on the drow. No need to work through a previous life to get there. No need to run all the content one or more times on an earlier life. No need to boost DC through having leveled to 20 in the past.

Same failure on half-elf dilettante as that requires a minimum 13 INT just to unlock. This is a waste of 5 build points that could otherwise be put to use in other ways.

Of 18 characters that I have on my account only 1 is a drow. It has no past lives and needs none to get to the numbers I am discussing. Thus it is especially important in this thread which happens to be in the new player forum.

How many new players do you know that are posting here because they are on a 2d life having capped a wizard? None? That is why talk of past lives is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

SirValentine
08-27-2012, 11:20 AM
With human adaptability and either FvS, bard, or paladin dilletante, helf parallels drow in CHA.


Not for a Sorc. The dilly stat enhancement doesn't stack with class stat enhancements.

Though for Human, if the extra feat lets you take a Great Charisma that you couldn't otherwise fit, you could say Human parallels Drow in Cha.

Systern
08-27-2012, 11:25 AM
All these replies are answered from the min/max perspective. It's been commented that in the current game state, there is a bar that is "good enough" for Epic hard and Epic Elite, content. So Humans, Helves, and Drow both are good enough to handle current top tier content for casters. People are arguing which is the correct build, making trade-offs at the top of their priority list and calling it a wash. Drow also add to the bottom of the scale.

If these three races can achieve equal Max, then the Drow adding to the Min raises the mean average. For example, on a rogue that has weak will saves, and wis is generally used as a dump stat, Elven immunity to sleep, bonuses to enchantment saves, and spell resistance are good things that add value, shoring up the weaknesses. Just like your DPS drops to 0 when you're dead, it drops to 0 when you're Held, Asleep, and Dancing too. Whether this is of sufficient value to the build is the players call. Personally, for a soloist build I find these to be desirable traits.

Great thing about Dungeons and Dragons is there is no one best answer. There's trade-offs and sacrifices to be made to achieve what you want. These threads always argue which mountain is biggest by looking for the the tallest peak; if your criteria is which has the greatest mass or volume, the answers often differ.

FestusHood
08-27-2012, 11:30 AM
So, try halfling. Free race to all players. With a 32 point build you get 12, 19, 13, 13, 8, 10 as starting stats and have a build point left over. You get the same DEX racial enhancement to go with the rogue class DEX enhancements. And, you can save a tome since you can take the leftover build point and toss it on INT for 6 extra skill points (4 at L1 and 1 each at L2 & L3).

On top of that, halfling dragonmarks give self healing capability for added survivability and the halfling size bonus grants +1 AC. What you lose out on is to hit and to damage numbers from the drow weapon enhancements. But, those are laughable when you take into account the halfling sneak enhancements (cunning and guile).

But, let's say you don't have 32 point builds. By going 12, 18, 13, 13, 8, 10 you use only 28 build points on a halfling. You save the use of a +1 tome on DEX. You still end up ahead on both to hit and to damage using the halfling cunning and guile enhancements and you still have the halfling healing marks.

In other words, nothing about drow is better than the 28 point halfling to build the same character.

In fact, you could drop the DEX all the way back to 16, drop the meaningless CHA back to 8 and boost INT and CON both to 15. That gives you a better chance to actually succeed in an assassinate, more HP, still more skill points at every level, and with the cunning and guile enhancements still a higher to hit and to damage number.

Absolutely the only thing that will be less is the reflex save. But, nothing in the first life game is going to demand a reflex save where 2 points more will make the difference.

So, even talking 28 point characters the bottom line is that drow is the weaker choice.

Yes i prefer to limit this to 28 point build characters, as well as nothing larger than a plus one tome, and no equipment that can't be readily gotten by basically anybody. The tiefling shortswords being the one exception.

First off, i have 3 halfling characters, and they all have the dragonmarks. There is no way i'm going to take them on a rogue. With no metamagics, the first 2 are basically pots, and the third one, if i'm not mistaken, is a single use unless you buff it with enhancements. You can't get a meta on a pure rogue, and 3 feats is pretty steep to get one or a few uses of an unmeta'd heal spell.

With the 28 points, i'll grant you the stats are equal except for the dex, which is one point short. So, given that, along with the 2 racial points, my drow is 3 points ahead, on every hit. You, however, have those marvelous halfling sneak enhancements. You'll have to pay for them. I'll give you 6 points for the drow sword enhancements you can't take, and 6 more points for the 3rd rogue dex enhancement, which doesn't do you any good. This pays for sneak damage tier 4, and the first tier of sneak to hit. Plus 8 on sneak, minus my 3 all the time, gives you plus 5 on sneak damage.

A clear win. But wait, the tiefling sword has a crit range of 15-20. This means that 30% of the time, i would actually be doing 6 extra points of damage, all the time, as crits don't affect sneak attack. Now i'm way not gonna do the math to figure out exactly where this occurs, but there is a point where our damage basically balances, and that point is somewhere on a line that represents the percentage rate at which sneak attack occurs.

Yes, if you are in a situation where you are basically getting sneak attack all the time, you will do more damage. If you are in a situation where you are rarely getting sneak damage, i.e soloing? I will get more damage.

ac even, reflex save one in my favor, Drow have spell resistance for what it's worth. Breakable dr, undead, we're both screwed. Mobs with fort, i'm ahead, or at least it shifts the balance point on the line.

Intangibles: Halflings are pretty cool, they're really small, and it's kind of funny, and that's worth something.
Drow: If you try, you can make em look pretty spooky, and i like that.

And for the tie breaker? I unlocked this with favor, and dammit i'm gonna use it.

FestusHood
08-27-2012, 11:33 AM
Whoa, i was loafing on that response, and this thread has really passed me by, i'll have to get caught up.

Chai
08-27-2012, 12:18 PM
FAIL!

It has nothing to do with the discussion because it isn't needed on the drow. No need to work through a previous life to get there. No need to run all the content one or more times on an earlier life. No need to boost DC through having leveled to 20 in the past.

Sorry, but this thread is evaluating drow, and I am pointing to where (and why) humans are better in your sorc scenario. This is not a fail, as evidenced by any lack of refutation you can bring to the table other than trying to dismiss this fact as irrelevant when it is in fact PERFECTLY RELEVANT.


Same failure on half-elf dilettante as that requires a minimum 13 INT just to unlock. This is a waste of 5 build points that could otherwise be put to use in other ways.

Wrong. You were talking about sorcs, and the dilletantes I names require cha, not int. But yeah they cant be used as class - so the helf is still one measly point away.


Of 18 characters that I have on my account only 1 is a drow. It has no past lives and needs none to get to the numbers I am discussing. Thus it is especially important in this thread which happens to be in the new player forum.

New players can be shown the benefits of past lives, and they should be. New player =/= first life only, or being able to dismiss other benefits someone should be encouraged to get when evaluating races.


How many new players do you know that are posting here because they are on a 2d life having capped a wizard? None? That is why talk of past lives is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

Any new players that want advice on how to build a good caster SHOULD BE MADE AWARE of the benefits of past lives of wizard, FvS, and cleric.

Ryiah
08-27-2012, 12:56 PM
As for 14 CON being enough. That might possibly be true on a class that is first life or that will avoid all melee risk. But, it is not nearly enough for any character that will be in combat on any regular basis.

One of my alts, which is closer to a main character than an alt, had a Con score of 14 first life. Epic Elites weren't out at the time and I didn't care much for Epics previously, but I do clearly recall bringing it into Elite Amrath and successfully handling melee despite only about 400 HP. Second life it has an even lower Con score of 12.

As for HP being highly sought after. Yes it is but only because players seem to artificially push what is not always needed. Last raid I ran was a naked Shroud. My Monk without gear is around 200 HP. The only death it had was the typical death caused by going to Part 5. It came close to dying once when I ran head first into some blades in Part 3 because I wasn't really paying attention but otherwise had no trouble.

In both my opinion and experience you can get by with a low Con score and even a low HP score. Obviously you should try to get low HP but stating that you absolutely need a high Con score to achieve that is just wrong. There are so many ways to achieve HP now that, unless you are a min/max player, you won't need to worry about it. A Con score of 14 is perfectly acceptable and less can be gotten away with if you are experienced.

Therigar
08-27-2012, 02:28 PM
A Con score of 14 is perfectly acceptable and less can be gotten away with if you are experienced.


Any new players that want advice on how to build a good caster SHOULD BE MADE AWARE of the benefits of past lives of wizard, FvS, and cleric.

The issue in both of the above posts is that this is new player advice. By definition it doesn't apply to experienced players.

Regarding Chai's comment specifically, the problem is that the thread isn't about casters or building a good one. It is about drow.

The points made are uniformly that drow do not synergize their three stat buffs to make anything that is particularly good or useful. One of the, potentially, few places where that becomes moot is in classes that rely on CHA. And of those, sorcerer is least demanding with respect to supporting stats.

A very serviceable sorcerer can be gotten by running your basic 28 point drow. As to the DC questions Chai raises, it should be observed that to get equivalent CHA on a human or half-elf requires use of human adaptability and another +1 CHA boost -- easiest gotten on an epic feat at L21. Any increase to DC gotten by past lives is equally attributed to drow. Past life benefits don't fail to work because of race choices.

So, if a human or half-elf is picking up the DC bonus from a wizard past life the same applies to a drow. Suggesting something different is misleading to people.

The only point of real validity in Chai's comments regards use of the bonus feat that humans receive. And, with human it is easier to take the wizard past life feat since they naturally have 10 rather than 9 feat choices (assuming the character plays to L25).

But, new players are unlikely to be worried about past life feats because they are unlikely to have a past life to worry about. For planning purposes on a future build it might be valuable to think that they'd like a wizard past life. But that doesn't address the first life character in even the smallest way.

So, ultimately, both comments have the same problem -- they are geared towards experienced players.

Low CON can work -- if you're experienced. Wizard past life can figure into a sorcerer build -- nice to know if you're new but only has meaning if you have a past life (that is, you're experienced).

For the standard new player looking at drow and wondering "what possible use is this to me" one possible answer is sorcerer. And, that is because it will have the highest spell point total and highest DC of any first life, 28 point character. And, even a first life 32 point character cannot match it until after L20.

Chai
08-27-2012, 06:00 PM
The issue in both of the above posts is that this is new player advice. By definition it doesn't apply to experienced players.

Regarding Chai's comment specifically, the problem is that the thread isn't about casters or building a good one. It is about drow.

The situation you created was about sorcs. They are casters.


The points made are uniformly that drow do not synergize their three stat buffs to make anything that is particularly good or useful. One of the, potentially, few places where that becomes moot is in classes that rely on CHA. And of those, sorcerer is least demanding with respect to supporting stats.

A very serviceable sorcerer can be gotten by running your basic 28 point drow. As to the DC questions Chai raises, it should be observed that to get equivalent CHA on a human or half-elf requires use of human adaptability and another +1 CHA boost -- easiest gotten on an epic feat at L21. Any increase to DC gotten by past lives is equally attributed to drow. Past life benefits don't fail to work because of race choices.

Anyone could make a "very servicable" build for any class out of the drow race. The race needs some love however, as their racial enhancements are bottom of the barrel in most cases.


So, if a human or half-elf is picking up the DC bonus from a wizard past life the same applies to a drow. Suggesting something different is misleading to people.

So again, what feat are you dropping for wiz past life compared to a human, who would take your drow template and tack that past life on wothout losing any other feat?


The only point of real validity in Chai's comments regards use of the bonus feat that humans receive. And, with human it is easier to take the wizard past life feat since they naturally have 10 rather than 9 feat choices (assuming the character plays to L25).

There are quite a few more points of validity in my comments that I have let all new players know when discussing comparing races, and they cannot be casually dismissed simply due to not backing the stance of those who disagree. The wizard past life is one very valid point a new player would need to consider (they aint gonna be uncapped forever)


But, new players are unlikely to be worried about past life feats because they are unlikely to have a past life to worry about. For planning purposes on a future build it might be valuable to think that they'd like a wizard past life. But that doesn't address the first life character in even the smallest way.

The only reason new players would not be worried about wizard past lives in relation to building a good caster is because they are not aware of them yet. An experienced player talking about making a good caster and comparing the racial options would be wise to include how it will be easier to add that feat as a human.


So, ultimately, both comments have the same problem -- they are geared towards experienced players.

No, they are geared toward experienced players giving advice to new players.


Low CON can work -- if you're experienced. Wizard past life can figure into a sorcerer build -- nice to know if you're new but only has meaning if you have a past life (that is, you're experienced).

For the standard new player looking at drow and wondering "what possible use is this to me" one possible answer is sorcerer. And, that is because it will have the highest spell point total and highest DC of any first life, 28 point character. And, even a first life 32 point character cannot match it until after L20.

Having a second life character does not invalidate someone from being a new player or needing advice. Ive met new players who leveled their first toon in 3-4 weeks. Still a new player, but now they have an option to TR and receive more benefits to the same character. TR =/= experienced player. This is a myth.

Ryiah
08-28-2012, 03:56 AM
The issue in both of the above posts is that this is new player advice.

Let me clarify the English I used more since my statement might not have seemed entirely clear.



A Con score of 14 is perfectly acceptable. Less can be gotten away with if you are experienced.




By definition it doesn't apply to experienced players.

By whose definition? Also what is the definition of a "new" player? I've met players who consider themselves new to the game despite having at least one character that was either capped or nearly capped. I've also met players who consider themselves experienced despite never having a capped, or even close to capped, character. There is even a guide in the "new" player section that gives advice that isn't even good advice from a player who considers themselves experienced yet largely doesn't understand their own game.

"New Player Advice & Guidance" is just that. It is for giving "new" players advice and guidance so they can not only learn the game but continue to improve at it. You seem to view the reduction to Con for Drow a rather large penalty. Not everyone feels that way and some of us have experience to the contrary. I've had a Drow character almost the entire time I've played this game. Both in melee and as a caster. I've not had problems.



TR =/= experienced player. This is a myth.

Quite true. I tend to run with a static group. Our policy used to be to put "Vets/TRs Only" in our LFM until we realized that half the TRs who joined us were completely clueless. It is even more true thanks to Veteran II and those Stones of Experience.

ferrite
08-28-2012, 04:25 AM
but for sorcerers i don't see it so much as they have a minus 2 penalty to charisma, which actually puts them 4 points behind drow.

Warforged sorcerors are probably the best arcane race and class mix. Having played many races for both wiz and sorc arcane types, I can tell you this is the best combination by far. The ability to reconstruct yourself, at sorceror casting speed, is indispensible in the thick of combat.

So the WF starts off with -2 charisma. So what? While highly important, its less critical for the sorc to have absolute max on their casting stat, since they just blast through anything in the game. Most of their damage spells are either reflex half or no save and even at half damage can mow down any threat without batting an eyelash. Wizards on the other hand with their pass/fail spells, need as much DC as they can get to be effective.

Drow can make reasonably good wizards and good spellsinger bards.

Ryiah
08-28-2012, 07:40 AM
Wizards on the other hand with their pass/fail spells, need as much DC as they can get to be effective.

I don't view it as that much of a loss giving up a single point in exchange for self-repairing. Pale master methods for self-healing are nice but never seemed quite as effective to me. Though it is a lot cheaper SP-wise.

Therigar
08-28-2012, 07:41 AM
The situation you created was about sorcs. They are casters.

I did not create any situation. I posted that I was generally negative towards drow but that I did have 1 (out of 18 characters) and that it was a sorcerer. That isn't creating a situation. It is illustrating that there are some situations where going drow, even for someone who has been playing the game as long as I have, sometimes takes place.

And, I noted that it was likely that people would point out that drow wasn't a best choice (which you have jumped on like a pit bull with a police car bumper (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXNmVZIoX_U)).

What happens to be valid for one character class does not always apply to every other nominally similar class. Might as well compare rangers and rogues since they are both specialists.

But, more importantly, what is true for a first life, 28 point build is significantly different from what is true for a second or later 34+ point build.

Lastly, what feat do I give up to shoehorn wizard past life into a 30+ point drow? How about you tell us what feats are absolutely, unequivocally required in order to play a sorcerer? Because with 9 feats available to me I can fit in these without any issue:

Empower
Maximize
Quicken
Spell Focus
Greater Spell Focus

That leaves space for us to debate about these:

Extend
Enlarge
Past Life: Wizard
Toughness
Mental Toughness
Improved Mental Toughness
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration

Personally, since none of the metamagics in the second list are needed for a sorcerer PrE there is no compelling reason to take them. A single wizard past life equals a spell penetration feat. And, generally advice on sorcerers indicates that neither mental toughness feat is necessary.

That means for the last four feats I can effectively narrow the list to:

Past Life: Wizard
Toughness


And, now, I have room for any two feats that I think will be especially useful and neither needs to be taken before L21. ;)

Ryiah
08-28-2012, 07:57 AM
That means for the last four feats I can effectively narrow the list to:

Past Life: Wizard
Toughness


My main's previous life was a Warforged Sorcerer. Near the beginning of the last month for that class I decided I wanted to LR and swap some stuff around. I had intended to replace Extend but somehow ended up removing Toughness as well. With gear and buffs I ended up at 400 HP. Still managed to be enough to hold up through soloing DQ2 and some of the U14 content though.

Therigar
08-28-2012, 08:18 AM
Warforged sorcerors are probably the best arcane race and class mix.

Were this a discussion about sorcerers this would merit serious consideration and generate much approval.

But, it is about drow.

Generally speaking drow is a poor choice for almost every character class. There are a few where it is a bit more equal.

One area where that may be true is with sorcerers, wizards, favored souls and rogues.

IMO it is important to evaluate whether a person is a min/max sort of player. Personally, I think DDO almost compels that mindset. This isn't the fault of the game, per se, but it is an ingrained characteristic of the game's players. As a result it is somewhat inevitable that build advice will devolve into a min/max discussion.

And, if we are talking min/max then wizard and sorcerer really only need two stats -- CON and INT (wizard) or CHA (sorcerer). Rogue and favored soul, OTOH, generally benefit from three stats (although either can be built using only two).

Iin the case of sorcerers, by limiting ourselves to only 28 build points and maximizing CHA then we have drow with 14 CON and 20 CHA and warforged with 18 CON and 16 CHA. Both have 2 build points left over that will probably go into STR as a guard against exhaustion.

The pro to warforged is that it has 2 more HP per level and it can self-heal. For that it gives up 2 points on every spell that permits a saving throw.

The pro to drow is that it has a 2 point higher DC when casting spells with saving throws. For that it gives up self healing and 2 HP per level.

For many players this trade-off favors warforged. This is especially true if a player builds with spells that do not permit saving throws as the DC becomes irrelevant in those cases.

Note that spell penetration works differently from saving throws in that it considers the character's caster level. A L16 sorcerer has the same spell penetration ability regardless of whether it is drow or warforged and irrespective of its CHA score. On higher level content mobs have spell resistance that has to be overcome. This is why some players invest in spell penetration feats and enhancements and why past lives that give spell penetration boosts are valued by people.

So, at this point it becomes a bit of a play style decision. If a player relies on spells that give no saving throw then certainly going with a warforged sorcerer makes excellent sense. In fact, I would heartily recommend that as a choice.

OTOH, if a player relies on instant killing spells that do give saving throws then having a higher DC due to the higher casting stat is a great reason to go drow. After all, the higher HP and self healing isn't really in demand if the mobs are all dead. And, if a player were of this mind set then I would certainly recommend drow as a choice for such a build.

Prior to the last updates human and half-elf could match a drow's effective CHA score in most cases. The latest updates have enabled drow to move a bump ahead unless humans/half-elves use an epic feat for parity. So, if looking at fleshy options the real question becomes one of how to spend the last two feats (L21 & L24).

Of course, human and half-elf have some other things going for them. Most people can reasonably be expected to choose human/half-elf over drow as a result.

In that respect Chai is correct in observing that the drow enhancements are pretty weak.

Still, for a player who does not have all of the past lives to draw on, who is unlikely to park at L20 to run epics for a long while, who probably will not attain L24 (although L21 is fairly easy to get) -- for that player the nuances between human/half-elf and drow might be rather small. And, the immediate advantage of the higher DC for saving throws may favor drow.

For me, that is certainly the case. I chose drow as the race for the sorcerer because I wanted to maximize the ability to beat saving throws in order to push the instant kill success. I won't sit on L20 long, maybe not at all. That means I'll only ever, effectively, be L18 (as I'll bank XP to L20).

Is it the best possible choice? Probably not. Is it a serviceable and playable choice? Absolutely.

And, within the context of this thread, is it a way to get something useful out of the drow race? Without question.

Therigar
08-28-2012, 08:24 AM
My main's previous life was a Warforged Sorcerer. Near the beginning of the last month for that class I decided I wanted to LR and swap some stuff around. I had intended to replace Extend but somehow ended up removing Toughness as well. With gear and buffs I ended up at 400 HP. Still managed to be enough to hold up through soloing DQ2 and some of the U14 content though.

With a warforged I could see not taking toughness. You probably start 4 points higher than drow to begin with and you have 2 CON enhancements available. That is a potential 3 points per level more in the HP total.

Drow, OTOH, probably benefit from toughness as that is 22HP at L20. With racial toughness it is another 20HP. Even at that, it is 18 points behind the warforged that will have gained 60HP just because of the higher CON score.

sandypaws
08-28-2012, 08:39 AM
I want to know why we're talking about past life wizard feats in a thread that is obviously for a first lifer toon with a new player.

Therigar
08-28-2012, 08:42 AM
I want to know why we're talking about past life wizard feats in a thread that is obviously for a first lifer toon with a new player.

Well, I tried to say that it wasn't appropriate to the discussion but someone seems to think that it is. Most of the talk has to do with showing that, to whatever degree it matters, the past life feat works for drow as well as any other race. ;)

Chai
08-28-2012, 08:51 AM
Well, I tried to say that it wasn't appropriate to the discussion but someone seems to think that it is. Most of the talk has to do with showing that, to whatever degree it matters, the past life feat works for drow as well as any other race. ;)

The first post I quoted of yours was literally talking about sorcs. Talking about wiz past life regarding giving newbies advice about casters is far from irrelevant, and does not get excluded from the discussion simply becauase it doesnt support your stance on the issue that drow are somehow better. WHen giving that new player the advice they need to build a good overall caster, the discussion goes far beyond their first life.


I want to know why we're talking about past life wizard feats in a thread that is obviously for a first lifer toon with a new player.

Sorry, but a thread entitled "Drow (in general)" is not a thread that is obviously for a first lifer toon with a new player. Leaving out advice for future lives when talking about building a good sorc (what Therigar was talking about) is incomplete advice. That player will still be a "new player" when they cap their toon which doesnt take long to do at all, even for someone who has never played this game, especially people coming from other MMOs who are used to soloing / short manning their way to max level.

The point is drow need some dev love as a race. Trying to make the discussion exclusive to your terms only is incomplete in anazyzing the race as a whole, and when giving advice to new players, they will want to know the better choices all around.

Loromir
08-28-2012, 09:13 AM
One misconception with Drow is that they don't have a 32 point build. They actually start out at a 32 point build, it's just that 4 of those points are predefined. On a 2nd and 3rd TR, Drow do get the bonus stat points.

IMO, Sorc is the best class for a Drow. Some will argue that a WF Sorc trumps a Drow Sorc. The primary benefit of a WF sorc are the repair spells and higher starting CON. The Benefit of Drow Sorc is CHR and with high enough UMD (Which is a CHR based skill) Drow Sorcs can use heal scrolls and self heal just as effectively as a WF. With the Drow having higher CHR, they have better overall spell DC's (And let's face it, spell casting is the most important ability for a Sorc). Most WF Sorc's abandon Instakill because their DC's cant get high enough for Epic Elite. A Drow can get high enough DC's to actually have a chance to land their Instakill spells and still be deadly nukers.

With the new content, epic destinies and gear available, it is now possible for the Drow Max CHR to end up on an even number while the Human max CHR would end on an Odd number making Drow the situationally BEST choice for Sorc or Wiz.

The obvious weakness of Drow is -2 penalty to Constitution and for some people that is just too much to stomach.

Even though there is alot of Drow hate out there, they are not totally useless.

Chai
08-28-2012, 09:40 AM
One misconception with Drow is that they don't have a 32 point build. They actually start out at a 32 point build, it's just that 4 of those points are predefined. On a 2nd and 3rd TR, Drow do get the bonus stat points.

IMO, Sorc is the best class for a Drow. Some will argue that a WF Sorc trumps a Drow Sorc. The primary benefit of a WF sorc are the repair spells and higher starting CON. The Benefit of Drow Sorc is CHR and with high enough UMD (Which is a CHR based skill) Drow Sorcs can use heal scrolls and self heal just as effectively as a WF. With the Drow having higher CHR, they have better overall spell DC's (And let's face it, spell casting is the most important ability for a Sorc). Most WF Sorc's abandon Instakill because their DC's cant get high enough for Epic Elite. A Drow can get high enough DC's to actually have a chance to land their Instakill spells and still be deadly nukers.

With the new content, epic destinies and gear available, it is now possible for the Drow Max CHR to end up on an even number while the Human max CHR would end on an Odd number making Drow the situationally BEST choice for Sorc or Wiz.

The obvious weakness of Drow is -2 penalty to Constitution and for some people that is just too much to stomach.

Even though there is alot of Drow hate out there, they are not totally useless.

Heal scrolls are not nearly as effective as self healing a warforged has. There is no quicken feat for scrolls. In situations where the toon is taking damage, the scroll healer would have to make a concentration check for every single damage taken, while the WF just pops a quickened recon which will work regardless of the damage taken up to their max HP.

The human has one more feat than the drow which puts them one DC higher. If the drow is taking the wizard past life, which feat are you dropping to get it?

Dropping a spell pen feat DQs you from epic spell pen
Dropping a spell fcus feat would contradict the point of getting wiz past life and would so DQ you from epic focus.
Dropping quicken makes you less viable in EE content because the damage taken in that content is > concentration scores.
Max or empower? Can you say gimped sorc without these
Dropping toughness on a drow? LOL - ive seen how that turns out - not pretty.

So which feat do you drop? No one can answer this question. They all want to dismiss wiz past life from the discussion due to rules lawyering that they are only talking about this extremely narrow situation where +1 are the only available tome and the caster is first life in a thread about discussing drow IN GENERAL. The entire reason to flaunt drows "higher cha" is to tout that their DC is higher than other races, which is only true in that very narrow situation they pointed out. Once we start down the road of building a complete caster, drow fall by the wayside as their one advantage is negated. If they try to keep that +1 advantage, they have to trade something else for it - likely spell pen.

Loromir
08-28-2012, 09:48 AM
Heal scrolls are not nearly as effective as self healing a warforged has. There is no quicken feat for scrolls. In situations where the toon is taking damage, the ascroll healer would have to make a concentration check for every single damage taken, while the WF just pops a quickened recon which will work regardless of the damage taken up to their max HP.

The human has one more feat than the drow which puts them one DC higher. If the drow is taking the wizard past life, which feat are you dropping to get it?

Dropping a spell pen feat DQs you from epic spell pen
Dropping a spell fcus feat would contradict the point of getting wiz past life and would so DQ you from epic focus.
Dropping quicken makes you less viable in EE content because the damage taken in that content is > concentration scores.
Max or empower? Can you say gimped sorc without these
Dropping toughness on a drow? LOL

So which feat do you drop? No one can answer this question. They all want to dismiss wiz past life from the discussion due to rules lawyering that they are only talking about this extremely narrow situation where +1 are the only available tome and the caster is first life.

I would drop quicken in a heartbeat...in fact I never take quicken on a sorc and I rarely have problems casting, even in EE. I will grant you that scroll healing is a little slower than casting a repair spell, but I don't have any trouble with scroll healing.

And, my primary comparison was between WF and Drow. I just wanted to point out that with the new content, Drow can now end up on an even numbered CHR stat with Max gear etc, while a human cannot.

Therigar
08-28-2012, 09:54 AM
Heal scrolls are not nearly as effective as self healing a warforged has.

I'm ignoring the bulk of what Chai is writing at this time as we are clearly talking past one another and either he doesn't get it or I don't. :eek:

But, on this point I'm in full agreement with Chai. UMD is pretty much over rated IMO and by the time it is high enough to make a difference a character is at or near L20.

While Chai might not make the same points about the value of UMD the last bit about character level is one that both of us understand. Add to that the difference in casting time for scrolls v spells and the warforged self healing is clearly ahead.

OTOH, if you play in a group that includes clerics and/or favored souls all the discussion about self healing becomes a bit moot. Too many factors to let this be the sole reason for selecting warforged over drow.

Chai
08-28-2012, 10:24 AM
I would drop quicken in a heartbeat...in fact I never take quicken on a sorc and I rarely have problems casting, even in EE. I will grant you that scroll healing is a little slower than casting a repair spell, but I don't have any trouble with scroll healing.

Every time you got hit while casting would mean being charged mana for no spell if you fail concentration checks - which will happen in EE. Same with scrolls, and their cooldown is too long to have to play the avoidance game long enough to use another one.


And, my primary comparison was between WF and Drow. I just wanted to point out that with the new content, Drow can now end up on an even numbered CHR stat with Max gear etc, while a human cannot.

That +1 dc is not the difference between still being able to use instakills -vs- having to abandon them however. Its 5% better. In favor of humans unless again you are dropping a feat to get the past life.

Therigar
08-28-2012, 10:34 AM
Dropping a spell pen feat DQs you from epic spell pen
Dropping a spell fcus feat would contradict the point of getting wiz past life and would so DQ you from epic focus.

Epic spell focus adds another +1 to the DC for spells that grant saving throws. That is entirely meaningless if the build doesn't depend on spells that give saving throws. Additionally, that is exactly the extra DC a drow has by maximizing CHA over a human or half-elf. AFAIK, present game max CHA is 20 base + 8 item + 4 tome + 3 exceptional + 2 insight + 6 stat increase + 3 enhancement + 6 epic +3 epic twist +1 epic feat -- human/half-elf can get 1 enhancement more but start 2 less on CHA. Any temporary increase due to pots or store items or ship buffs are equal to all characters. If a player goes to the trouble to hit 52 CHA before buffs the +1 DC from epic spell focus is going to be pretty meaningless. In fact, wasting twists and an epic feat to get to 52 is pretty much pointless as well since there are better things to do with all of those.

Epic spell penetration adds +4 to caster level for overcoming spell resistance. Each wizard past life grants +2 spell penetration. Each favored soul past life grants +1 spell penetration. No content needs characters to push to +17 spell penetration (+2 spell pen, +2 greater spell pen, +4 epic spell pen, +6 3 x wizard past life, +3 3 x fvs past life).

Chai's bit about contradicting the point of wizard past lives is really misleading. Wizard past life gives a +2 spell penetration. Nothing in it about spell focus at all. If you want increases to spell focus you take sorcerer or cleric past lives -- and then you specialize in evocation or conjuration spells. The wizard selectable past life feat (Arcane Initiate) is a +1 DC to all spells. Nothing in it about spell focus either.

Talon_Moonshadow
08-28-2012, 11:12 AM
Of course.... I disagree with most of the people posting here.


What class or build benefits from higher Int, Dex, AND(maybe or) Cha?!
Those are the ones that make good Drow (or vice versa).
(technically every class does, but that's not what I mean here)

Assassin Rogue! Drow shine here IMO.

Drow Wizards can have the highest Int. Very important for a Wizard.
I especially like my Drow Wiz, Pale Master, Shadow Mage. But technically she does not need the Cha.

Sorcs can benefit from the higher Cha, but I would argue that Humans make far better Sorcs. (and possible WF, but I still have trouble with WF as Sorcs cause of the Cha penalty)


Bards may be a good choice. The only Bard I have enjoyed playing so far was a Drow.

Pallies maybe. But personally I think I need a thrid life build to make a Pallie I would enjoy playing.

FVS are similar to Pallies, but even worse, cause I feel the need to max Wisdom on them.

Clr... well... a turning Cleric or to get the higher Divine Might(? is that right).

I think Drow would make a good Artificer. Int, Dex, Cha... all beneficial to Arties.


But except for a specific build, other clases to not get as much from having all three of those stats boosted. And melee classes are technically better off with higher Con and more Toughness enhancments.


The SR is nice. and underappreciated IMO.
The Shuriken expertise in underappreciated.

The value of Dex and Int is underappreciated IMO too.

Cha though.... while technically useful to everyone, this is my most common dump stat.

and I usually just put 2-4 points into Int anyway, so most of my chars do not benefit from Drow Int bonus really.

and several races have high Dex.


So... me personally.
while they are not bad... they only really show me an advantage in a few clases or builds.

I think they are superior Assassin Rogue.
I thik they make good PM, Shadow Mages.
(and I think they make good Artificers too)

sgz
08-28-2012, 11:25 AM
The human has one more feat than the drow which puts them one DC higher. If the drow is taking the wizard past life, which feat are you dropping to get it?

Dropping a spell pen feat DQs you from epic spell pen
Dropping a spell fcus feat would contradict the point of getting wiz past life and would so DQ you from epic focus.
Dropping quicken makes you less viable in EE content because the damage taken in that content is > concentration scores.
Max or empower? Can you say gimped sorc without these
Dropping toughness on a drow? LOL - ive seen how that turns out - not pretty.

So which feat do you drop? No one can answer this question. They all want to dismiss wiz past life from the



Based on your questions above, your human sorceror appears to be packing:
- both spell penetration feats
- epic spell pen
- both spell focus feats
- epic spell focus
- max/empower
- quicken
- toughness
- wiz past life

which appears to be 11 feats...isn't that 1 too many? (Normal: 1 base + 6 levels + 2 epic + 1 human=10)
So which feat did you drop?

Assuming you and the comparable Drow sorcerer(both max equipped) both decided to drop the epic spell pen feat (and the comparable drow sorcerer also dropped quicken), both would have the same bonuses to +DC with the Drow sorcerer having +1 DC higher due to evened out Charisma vs the Humans odd (with +1 CHA enhancement).

Your re-iterated statement that humans have 1 higher DC only applies if the Drow sorcerer did NOT pick the same DC boosting feats the human sorcerer did.

Therigar
08-28-2012, 12:14 PM
Assassin Rogue! Drow shine here IMO.

IF we limit ourselves to 28 point builds and IF we do not max INT and DEX and IF we run with weapon finesse and IF we use the assassin blades from TBC, then this is possibly correct.

Drow can run 18 DEX 17 INT and 14 CON at creation. Halfling is the only other real contender and it can have 18 DEX 16 INT and 15 CON at creation with 28 points.

I have already argued that halfling is better here because of the enhancement options. Those do only apply to sneak attacks. OTOH, you are only assassinating when sneaking so that is sort of moot.

The higher starting CON gives the potential for a higher max CON using easily obtained (via the DDO store) +3 tomes. Lower INT means a potentially lower assassinate DC, but only by 1 point. In most cases that will not matter. Overall, IMO, halfling is the better choice.

Therigar
08-28-2012, 12:18 PM
- toughness

I'm guessing it is this.

Higher base CON along with human healing amp is the reason why. In and of itself the higher base CON already balances the HP gained by toughness. And, not spending enhancements on toughness saves 6 AP that can probably be better spent elsewhere.

Overall it is a 22HP difference at L20 between a pure human sorcerer without and a pure drow sorcerer with toughness (plus enhancements).

Loromir
08-28-2012, 12:25 PM
I think all this thread has proven is that Drow are not useless (Though some will always disagree). In a couple of cases they can be the best (or near best) racial choices. Some opinions differ, but isn't this really what makes DDO (D&D) such a great game? There are just endless possibilities with character builds and THAT.... keeps this game from being boring.

Entelech
08-28-2012, 12:50 PM
32 point Hoo = S 8, D16, C 10, I 16, W 8, Ch 16.
28 point drow = S 8, D16, C 14, I 16, W 8, Ch 16.

Yeah, Hoo obviously the better spread there!

So...a pure trapmonkey Rogue with a repeater, or a mediocre Artificer, can be viable if you cross your eyes and cook the books hard enough. A more realistic difference might look like this:

32 point Human = S 8, D16, C 14, I 16, W 8, Ch 14.
28 point drow = S 8, D16, C 14, I 16, W 8, Ch 16.

Now, playing an 8-strength Rogue is an exercise in masochism I do not plan to undertake, but then I have pointed out that Drow are viable in the few rare situations where Int, Dex and Cha are all important. Let's look at the Two-Handed Weapon Paladin mentioned by the OP.

32 point Human = S 16, D 10, C 14, I 10, W 10, Ch 16.
28 point Drow = S 16, D 10, C 14, I 10, W 10, Ch 16.

Many builders would dump the Human's Dex, Int and Wis to get an 18 strength, and there's the matter of the better human racial perks, but they're quite comparable.

Now let's look at a Evoker Favored Soul:

32 point Human = S 16, D 8, C 14, I 8, W 18, Ch 8.
28 point Drow = S 10, D 10, C 14, I 10, W 18, Ch 10.

sgz
08-28-2012, 01:32 PM
I'm guessing it is this.

Higher base CON along with human healing amp is the reason why. In and of itself the higher base CON already balances the HP gained by toughness. And, not spending enhancements on toughness saves 6 AP that can probably be better spent elsewhere.

Overall it is a 22HP difference at L20 between a pure human sorcerer without and a pure drow sorcerer with toughness (plus enhancements).

Yea. Quicken/Toughness/Spell Pen, in order of preference, would be what I would be looking at as well.

Drow certainly isn't a bad choice to play a sorcerer with.
Any other class combination(s) that make use (or combination thereof) of INT/DEX/CHA would all work decently, especially if they have a lot of enhancements that can be chosen. It's really the enhancements that makes a Drow a challenging race to choose for some classes; more so than the -2CON that most people tend to really focus on.

Bard, rogue, arty and paladin can all work nicely.

Chai
08-28-2012, 01:56 PM
Based on your questions above, your human sorceror appears to be packing:
- both spell penetration feats
- epic spell pen
- both spell focus feats
- epic spell focus
- max/empower
- quicken
- toughness
- wiz past life

which appears to be 11 feats...isn't that 1 too many? (Normal: 1 base + 6 levels + 2 epic + 1 human=10)
So which feat did you drop?

Never made that statement that the human was packing all of the above. I was asking the question understanding that people can and will feat them out differently depending on their needs. The usual way to feat them out is to drop the spell pen and go with the DCs for the damage spells. The only possible reason we would be talking about the cha score in the first place would be DCs.


Assuming you and the comparable Drow sorcerer(both max equipped) both decided to drop the epic spell pen feat (and the comparable drow sorcerer also dropped quicken), both would have the same bonuses to +DC with the Drow sorcerer having +1 DC higher due to evened out Charisma vs the Humans odd (with +1 CHA enhancement).

Dropping quicken is a bad move. In the most challenging content where you NEED spells to succeed and go off, they will fail each time the sorc takes damage while casting. The DC on those for concentration is damage + 10. EE mobs damage totals per hit are over 100 and some nearing 200, just for trash. A 120 point hit would have a concentration DC of 130 to succeed. This is also true for heal scrolls which are nto covered by quicken.


Your re-iterated statement that humans have 1 higher DC only applies if the Drow sorcerer did NOT pick the same DC boosting feats the human sorcerer did.

Which I also stated the drow will have to make a sacrifice to maintain that the human would not have to make. If I had to choose, Id choose the spell pen before I sacrificed quicken. There is enough spell pen in destinies + TRing that this can be done. Once I had a high number of HP, id prob drop toughness and pick the spell pen back up if I felt I needed it. I see sorcs running around with 750 HP nowdays - dropping toughness at that point would mean the sorc has a measly 700 HP. :p

sgz
08-28-2012, 03:00 PM
Which I also stated the drow will have to make a sacrifice to maintain that the human would not have to make. If I had to choose, Id choose the spell pen before I sacrificed quicken. There is enough spell pen in destinies + TRing that this can be done. Once I had a high number of HP, id prob drop toughness and pick the spell pen back up if I felt I needed it. I see sorcs running around with 750 HP nowdays - dropping toughness at that point would mean the sorc has a measly 700 HP. :p

Sounds good.

I never really noticed much of a difference with quicken on during my recent Sorcerer TR. I play my sorcerer constantly on the move, so during my EE farming, it wasn't very noticeable having it on/off. Spell pen was very noticeable though, so I'll see how big a difference a couple of FVS lives can improve it and changing quicken to greater spell pen or swapping out toughness to keep quicken in.

sandypaws
08-28-2012, 06:38 PM
Sorry, but a thread entitled "Drow (in general)" is not a thread that is obviously for a first lifer toon with a new player. Leaving out advice for future lives when talking about building a good sorc (what Therigar was talking about) is incomplete advice. That player will still be a "new player" when they cap their toon which doesnt take long to do at all, even for someone who has never played this game, especially people coming from other MMOs who are used to soloing / short manning their way to max level.

The point is drow need some dev love as a race. Trying to make the discussion exclusive to your terms only is incomplete in anazyzing the race as a whole, and when giving advice to new players, they will want to know the better choices all around.

While I do appreciate the effort, Chai, and it's always good to help new folks, I've got a sneaking suspicion that our poor newbie friend is seeing stars by this point. To wit, from the OP's first post in this thread...


Note: I have extremely limited knowledge of D&D in general, both DDO and P&P and it is pretty much limited to about thirty hours or so of play on DDO.

Especially since the person is currently does not have access to 32 point builds, which he will when he TRs. This makes it a whole other kettle of fish. I agree with your analysis, I'm just concerned that our friend is being lost in the details at this juncture. Plus my first life easily took months <.<.

To Conncetchathac: My suggestion is to go human for your first life even though the extra stat points to drow -are- nice, for the simple reason of versatility. You get an extra feat, you get an extra skill point (though so do drow, effectively), it's free. More importantly, human enhancements are all over the place and you can experiment with them every three days for a modest fee. If you want to see what investing in action boosts does, you can do that. If you want super healing amp, you can do that. Swapping enhancements around as a drow isn't going to give much of a window into different playstyles. It's one of the most forgiving races too, imo. Perfect for experimenting with. Can you make a solid first life drow? Sure. I'd even go so far as to say you could use drow for just about any class with minimal issues. You likely won't be optimal, for reasons Chai and others have stated above that will begin to make more sense to you as you play, but then as a first lifer you won't be anyhow. Play around, have fun. Feel out what works and what doesn't, and try to figure out why it doesn't. If it doesn't, see if you can find an interesting and cool way around the problem.

FestusHood
08-28-2012, 07:07 PM
While I do appreciate the effort, Chai, and it's always good to help new folks, I've got a sneaking suspicion that our poor newbie friend is seeing stars by this point. To wit, from the OP's first post in this thread...

Especially since the person is currently does not have access to 32 point builds, which he will when he TRs. This makes it a whole other kettle of fish. I agree with your analysis, I'm just concerned that our friend is being lost in the details at this juncture. Plus my first life easily took months <.<.

I can pretty much guess that the op's thinking was this: Ok, i've just hit 400 favor with my first toon, and i've unlocked this thing called drow. Since it's unlockable, instead of being available from the start, there must be something special about it. Maybe i'll go to the forums and ask.

So yes, any advice along the lines of ideal min/max perfect builds, or especially, the implications of drow as the final incarnation of a completionist build, (only slight exaggeration), is probably beyond the scope of the op's question.

No harm, though, as i'm pretty sure the op hasn't been reading this thread since about page 3, which in my mind is about the point at which the actual, original subject was properly exhausted.

"All is vanity"-Solomon

sandypaws
08-28-2012, 07:13 PM
No harm, though, as i'm pretty sure the op hasn't been reading this thread since about page 3, which in my mind is about the point at which the actual, original subject was properly exhausted.


Fair enough.

Ryiah
08-28-2012, 11:17 PM
Drow can run 18 DEX 17 INT and 14 CON at creation. Halfling is the only other real contender and it can have 18 DEX 16 INT and 15 CON at creation with 28 points.

Personally I'd probably go with 8 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 8 Wis, 16 Cha on a Drow Assassin. My reasoning on the Charisma is that a new player/character won't necessarily have an easy time boosting UMD. Having a base 16 Charisma means a little easier time boosting UMD.

Conncetchathac
08-30-2012, 06:38 PM
I can pretty much guess that the op's thinking was this: Ok, i've just hit 400 favor with my first toon, and i've unlocked this thing called drow. Since it's unlockable, instead of being available from the start, there must be something special about it. Maybe i'll go to the forums and ask.

So yes, any advice along the lines of ideal min/max perfect builds, or especially, the implications of drow as the final incarnation of a completionist build, (only slight exaggeration), is probably beyond the scope of the op's question.

No harm, though, as i'm pretty sure the op hasn't been reading this thread since about page 3, which in my mind is about the point at which the actual, original subject was properly exhausted.

"All is vanity"-Solomon

Let's be fair now, I stopped about halfway down page 4.

Umm, I believe I misrepresented myself. My knowledge of gameplay is limited to about thirty hours of DDO. My knowledge of the universe is limited to the works of Ed Greenwood{specifically the Temptation of Elminster from when I was ten}, Margaret Weis(and her very common co-author who's name I can't remember at this time) and R.A. Salvatore. So I do know who the Drow are and I should say that I like the Lolth-aligned Drow very much but I prefer the Eberron setting. My first reaction when I unlocked them I was like "Yay!" and then I remembered you can't have a Chaotic Evil character in DDO for some reason and was like "I'll make like Jane from Firefly, but with a brain." Problem is that I have limited knowledge of the stats, do not have access to any classes that aren't free and have no idea what my first steps should be other than keep upping my ranger that is slowly dying of boredom because I haven't played in a while.

Entelech
10-15-2012, 03:24 AM
I predicted this in my first reply to the thread, back on page one.


... The question is tremendously complicated....

And, to get anything useful out of the discussion, you will need to build, play and level several characters of different types to learn how they work, how you prefer to play, and so on. It's a major undertaking. And nobody can tell you what the best character FOR YOU is, except you. Your playstyle, preferences, and skillset have too large an impact on performance.

If you aren't planning on putting in that kind of study, then the short answer is "Mu".

There is a lot of wiggle room for defining "best" in DDO. And, ultimately, some factors that are important to you might be irrelevant to someone else. And for someone who's a novice to the game, the optimization differences between one race and another are usually quite minor, since you're still fumbling around and learning anyway.

The best advice I can give you is this:

(1) Ignore the "recommended class" nonsense and paths in the character generation menus. Generally speaking, the advice therein is mediocre at best.

(2) If it looks interesting, give it a try. Try several different kinds of characters. Then think about which ones you enjoy playing, and why.

(3) Look at other posted builds on the forums, but never blindly copy one of them. Use them to inspire your own experiments but make them your own.

(4) Enjoy the journey. This is a game, after all.

If you do these things, you'll come to know your preferences, and what is possible in the game. And you'll know how to build characters you love to play.