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View Full Version : Spell focus as requirements for spells



goodoldxelos
08-18-2012, 03:25 PM
Suggestion is to require certain spell focus feats as a prerequisite to loading/memorizing certain spells (suggestion is for Sorcerers and Wizards only). (I do play caster classes) Feel this may balance them out a bit. This would also allow the developers to make other spells of higher level more powerful (such has charm, dominate, disjunction/dispels) without overpowering casters overall since they are limited by feats (wizards would be less affected but rightly so since they get less spell points).

Some examples, require Spell focus evocation for chain lightning and otilukes; but require greater spell focus for polar ray and meteor swarm. Another example require greater enchantment focus for dominate monster and make it much more powerful (last until rest or player death).

redspecter23
08-18-2012, 03:36 PM
I just can't see this idea being overly popular at all. We kind of have a limiting factor right now in game that uses spell focus. Prestige enhancements and their respective SLA's require certain spell focus feats and that seems fine to me. If you want a specialized archmage, you'll be focusing in one school and taking spell focus for that school.

Limiting spells by having spell focus feats is a potential area to explore with new high tier SLA's perhaps, but I'd keep it away from regular old spells. You mention evocation focus for some nuking spells, but how many clerics would be willing to take conjuration focus for heal mass or necro focus specifically for harm. All this would accomplish is to make an already small spell list shorter by excluding some spells. If the devs want to make a new spell and balance it in some way through the requirement of spell focus feats, that's something to discuss, but don't apply it to current spells.

janave
08-18-2012, 03:37 PM
(wizards would be less affected but rightly so since they get less spell points).

The maximum spellpoints is a joke, anyone who played casters long enough knows that. Spell pots, sp regen gear(Torc, ConcOpp), clikies (Cove Dagger, Litany), collectable turnin shrines. A well equipped Wizard has no limitation of power. Sorc get somewhat faster casting, and a relatively crappy capstone since the spellpower mod to show for.

I dont think this is a good idea, it really only kills versatility not their raw power. I can, and I like to CC on my Sorcerer, I gotta work more than a Wiz, but im glad I can still do it.

The only really borked thing with casters is their ability to spam their best spells thru the entire dungeon, one can rotate Circle of Death and Wail of Banshee, and that works! Its cheap and effortless, but the community seems to like it enough to make a huge outcry when this ablity gets any degree less cheap and easy.

Kinerd
08-18-2012, 03:38 PM
While I think there is good motivation for this suggestion, a major stumbling block is that the strongest spells are Necro and every (serious metagame) wizard has GSF: Necro already. I think this would make the change feel kind of picky; for instance, my wizard uses Mass Charm every now and again, so the actual change wouldn't be that much of a difference, but it would feel ticky tack and annoying if he/it couldn't anymore.

I also think it really sticks it to sorcerers, mainly due to the Savant feat requirements.

.

What if rather than prerequisites for use, the feats enhanced spells? Obviously this doesn't address the fundamental balance with melees concern, but it would(/could) at least make things other than Necro more interesting.

Enoach
08-18-2012, 03:41 PM
/not signed

The ability to utilize multiple schools of spells has been a DnD Tradition since spell schools were first created.

To require a school focus to memorize spells would not balance out Casters but instead inhibit all characters that can cast spells.

Schools

Abjuration
Conjuration
Divination
Enchantment
Evocation
Illusion
Necromancy
Transmutation


Classes that would be hurt the most - This would limit their build options of classes that already have few feats to utilize for specialization.

Paladin
Cleric
FvS
Ranger

FranOhmsford
08-18-2012, 03:47 PM
/not signed

The ability to utilize multiple schools of spells has been a DnD Tradition since spell schools were first created.

To require a school focus to memorize spells would not balance out Casters but instead inhibit all characters that can cast spells.

Schools

Abjuration
Conjuration
Divination
Enchantment
Evocation
Illusion
Necromancy
Transmutation


Classes that would be hurt the most - This would limit their build options of classes that already have few feats to utilize for specialization.

Paladin
Cleric
FvS
Ranger


Uh? Bards!?

Enoach
08-18-2012, 04:35 PM
Uh? Bards!?

Don't they only use Enchantment :). Sorry I forgot about the red-headed step children of the Arcane Classes.

Yes, Bards also would be hurt.

goodoldxelos
08-18-2012, 04:41 PM
/not signed

The ability to utilize multiple schools of spells has been a DnD Tradition since spell schools were first created.

To require a school focus to memorize spells would not balance out Casters but instead inhibit all characters that can cast spells.

Schools

Abjuration
Conjuration
Divination
Enchantment
Evocation
Illusion
Necromancy
Transmutation


Classes that would be hurt the most - This would limit their build options of classes that already have few feats to utilize for specialization.

Paladin
Cleric
FvS
Ranger


You arguing points that i didnt even bring up. i was suggesting that the more powerful ones be restricted. Never once did i suggest this for divines or for low level spells (which ranger, paladin and bards use). Maybe<---- see maybe; level 6 and above spells would start requirements and only for specific spells. It just seems that ddo devs seem to not care about the other schools and we should start a mature discourse on the subject. Taking one spell school has historically locked you out/inhibited another, and this isnt even close to 3.5 so please don't compare.

Quetzacoala
08-18-2012, 05:09 PM
Never once did i suggest this for divines

Actually, you inadvertently did.

You stated that your suggestion would be to require spell focus feats in order to cast the more powerful high level spells; arcane casters are not the only ones with access to incredible spells at high levels, they simply have more of them.

Never once did you say that this suggestion was limited to arcane casters.

goodoldxelos
08-18-2012, 06:02 PM
Actually, you inadvertently did.

You stated that your suggestion would be to require spell focus feats in order to cast the more powerful high level spells; arcane casters are not the only ones with access to incredible spells at high levels, they simply have more of them.

Never once did you say that this suggestion was limited to arcane casters.

Wizards and Sorcerers only... ****!

Memnir
08-18-2012, 06:39 PM
No thank you.

FranOhmsford
08-19-2012, 09:53 AM
Don't they only use Enchantment :). Sorry I forgot about the red-headed step children of the Arcane Classes.

Yes, Bards also would be hurt.

They should also be using Illusion!

Not sure how many Illusion spells have actually made it into DDO in a usable form for Bards?

Conjuration, Abjuration, Transmutation - All are within a Bard's Purview.

Evocation - Greater Shout???

Necromancy - I'm gonna echo what someone said in another thread - Wail of the Banshee should be available to Bards!

Carkolda
08-19-2012, 11:16 AM
Not only does this make no sense mechanically, but it completely contradicts any sort of reference to D&D Canon.

If I could /not sign this more than once, I would.

Uska
08-19-2012, 01:17 PM
Worst caster sugestion ever! Was so tempted to do more but......

Aashrym
08-19-2012, 03:03 PM
They should also be using Illusion!

Not sure how many Illusion spells have actually made it into DDO in a usable form for Bards?

Conjuration, Abjuration, Transmutation - All are within a Bard's Purview.

Evocation - Greater Shout???

Necromancy - I'm gonna echo what someone said in another thread - Wail of the Banshee should be available to Bards!

Bards have necromancy spells; they just largely suck. :D

I also use several illusions ;) -- invisibility, blur, displacement, shadow walk... now if only there was an offensive illusion spell on the bard's list beyond hypnotic pattern. Definitely missing offensive bard illusions. I want nightmare terrain, shadow evocation, and shadow conjuration.


@ the OP: not signed. Spells slots are already enough of a limitation without adding additional feat requirements and any caster who does not already take feats to enhance those offensive spells is already using them at a relative disadvantage.

Drekisen
08-19-2012, 03:43 PM
Suggestion is to require certain spell focus feats as a prerequisite to loading/memorizing certain spells (suggestion is for Sorcerers and Wizards only). (I do play caster classes) Feel this may balance them out a bit. This would also allow the developers to make other spells of higher level more powerful (such has charm, dominate, disjunction/dispels) without overpowering casters overall since they are limited by feats (wizards would be less affected but rightly so since they get less spell points).

Some examples, require Spell focus evocation for chain lightning and otilukes; but require greater spell focus for polar ray and meteor swarm. Another example require greater enchantment focus for dominate monster and make it much more powerful (last until rest or player death).

Uhmmm no...this is sillysauce...I would neg rep you for even making this suggestion but it would be unwarranted but just to reiterate how vehemently against this suggestion I am.

here is a -1....no I didn't actually neg rep you...but I sure would like to

goodoldxelos
08-19-2012, 05:08 PM
sounds like a consensus, topic closed.

Karavek
08-20-2012, 08:59 AM
Suggestion is to require certain spell focus feats as a prerequisite to loading/memorizing certain spells (suggestion is for Sorcerers and Wizards only). (I do play caster classes) Feel this may balance them out a bit. This would also allow the developers to make other spells of higher level more powerful (such has charm, dominate, disjunction/dispels) without overpowering casters overall since they are limited by feats (wizards would be less affected but rightly so since they get less spell points).

Some examples, require Spell focus evocation for chain lightning and otilukes; but require greater spell focus for polar ray and meteor swarm. Another example require greater enchantment focus for dominate monster and make it much more powerful (last until rest or player death).

Has 0 to do with logic all with someone trying to clip the wings of of those who have already suffered far to many nerfs. Cant we just wait for the enhancment pass before trying to cripple classes some more.

Versatility is what makes casters, especially wizards, fun to play. You do grasp if you remove the fun factor there is no point in them even being in the game. Feats are already in short supply, as are actually useful spells in certain schools/lvl ranges. What your suggesting is not just a minor nerf but a poorly thought out idea.

I truly wish there was some rule on this sub forums requires suggestions to only come from those with years of table top DM experience. Players have no business making suggestions. Its really only for those who have successfully run countless games with other people face to face.

Karavek
08-20-2012, 09:08 AM
You arguing points that i didnt even bring up. i was suggesting that the more powerful ones be restricted. Never once did i suggest this for divines or for low level spells (which ranger, paladin and bards use). Maybe<---- see maybe; level 6 and above spells would start requirements and only for specific spells. It just seems that ddo devs seem to not care about the other schools and we should start a mature discourse on the subject. Taking one spell school has historically locked you out/inhibited another, and this isnt even close to 3.5 so please don't compare.

Sorry only specializing which we do not have in DDO restricted other school access. And you have just lost all respect by becoming one of those saying well this isnt even close to 3.5.

This game very much does follow D&D 3E+. Sure it has its own house rules, like the enhancment system. But that does not make it LESS. I myself use an amalgamated D20 system for table top play when not just using the vastly superior hackmaster 4E system. Which I still borrow some from for D20.

The first secret of DMing is that you dont even need rule books.

There is no gap between the power of casters and melee in DDO. each has forms of extreme builds with players behind that that are so OP they break the game if used as some kind of standard. one is a retardarian with the ESOS, the other is a Sorc. One of the more infamous pro barb forumites Shade favors both those classes above all others for DPS builds if I have understood some of the things he has said over the years here.

Hell the fact is if they ever added more weapons even close to the ESOS it would only require more buffing to pure casters. The fact is until the ESOS is nerfed no other nerf or change to class balance will ever make sense.

dterror
08-20-2012, 09:11 AM
Worst caster suggestion EVER

Take your caster nerf ideas and shove them where the sun don't shine. Casters *DO NOT NEED A NERF*. PERIOD. Casters are MEANT TO BE NEAR GODLIKE AT level 20, and yet arcanes at least have already had a good level 9 spell gutted down to something you might see at spell level FIVE.

If anything REVERSE the wail nerf.

Uska
08-20-2012, 09:58 AM
Uhmmm no...this is sillysauce...I would neg rep you for even making this suggestion but it would be unwarranted but just to reiterate how vehemently against this suggestion I am.

here is a -1....no I didn't actually neg rep you...but I sure would like to

that was the do more I was talking about it was awfully tempting wasnt it:D

Lonnbeimnech
08-20-2012, 10:15 AM
Ooh, I got some more in this vein.

How about if you want to use a greatsword or greataxe you need to have superior weapon specialisation slashing.

Or if you want to disable trpas you need skill focus search and skill focus disable divice.

And to use repeaters you need improved precise shot.

To cast the heal spell you need both greater conjuration forcus and skill focus heal even if its from a scroll.

For bards to use fascinate they need the nimble fingers feat.

This would open up so many more options.