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dodger72
08-17-2012, 12:04 PM
The math on renown, for me, is odd...albeit semi-understandable (no, I've not delved into the intricacies, nor do I really wish to do so).

When you earn renown for a guild, a portion of that renown should stay with the toon. Yes yes....there's favor that unlocks other things, that's true. We all know that, but when the time comes to move from one guild to another, a portion of that renown is just gone...what is it...10% to 25%? something like that.

The other 75% to 90% stays with the guild. OK. cool. What, besides the player and the stable of toons they bring with them to the next guild do they have to bring to the table?

Let's say a toon earns 100k renown on a toon. That player leaves a guild on good terms, and the guild loses 10k renown and keeps the 90k. Alright. I get that.

That 10% renown on the toon ought to travel with that toon, maximum. So even if the toon left on bad terms (25k renown lost) only the 10% would travel with the toon. Something not-so-nice happened to get that toon removed from guild, but the renown was earned by that toon/player and should travel with that toon. The renown should not just disappear in the the ethers.

Discuss.

thanks :D

Tshober
08-17-2012, 12:17 PM
If a change along the lines of what you suggest were implemented, the only thing I can see that it would accomplish is providing a little bit more incentive for guilds to try to lure players away from other guilds. Other than that, nothing would change appreciably.

Lagin
08-17-2012, 12:21 PM
Good idea. + 1

Silverwren
08-17-2012, 12:33 PM
I'm assuming, since you didn't specify, that the 10% traveling renown gets added to the new guild? I'm not so sure that's a good thing. The guild gets X amount of renown just for recruiting someone from another guild?

Mmmm, no. Renown is a guild builder, and should be lost or remain with the guild.

dodger72
08-17-2012, 01:07 PM
you are correct, the 10% of total renown travels with the toon

I agree, renown is a guild builder earned by individual toons.

Yes, Guild X would get that renown automatically added to their guild because Toon 1 joined them. Just like that 10% to 25% is removed when said toon leaves or is removed from Guild A.

Toons have the choice in the end reward list to grab renown or vendor trash. That is the choice made and earned by the toon/player for successful completion of a quest. Other forms of renown rewards are automatic (as in the 5 - whatever amount earned during a quest).

Renown makes a guild stronger; however renown should also reflect the ability of the toon as a valued member of the guild.

herzkos
08-17-2012, 03:08 PM
have to agree with the OP on this one.

OK, if a baseball player(say Albert Pujols) is traded(kicked from guild), he still has a large group of fans
who will still follow and support him-and his team- even though he is now playing for a different team.

Yes, the renown you get goes to the guild(few fans show up to a game just to root for one player to do well),
but the player also gains fame as a result. When players leave teams via free agency(Lebron James), they can have many new supporters(the new team's fans) but they also generate some hostility from the old fans.

Anyway, the exact amounts could vary whether voluntary or involuntary but players would be more likely to
try for renown if it was something that benefitted them personally as well as the guild.

And yes, both of those players had a positive impact on the "guilds" they joined.
For another example, check the buzz in Denver generated by Peyton Manning as well as the media circus
in NY for Tebow.
so, /signed for personal renown.

Silverwren
08-20-2012, 01:43 PM
have to agree with the OP on this one.

OK, if a baseball player(say Albert Pujols) is traded(kicked from guild), he still has a large group of fans
who will still follow and support him-and his team- even though he is now playing for a different team.

Yes, the renown you get goes to the guild(few fans show up to a game just to root for one player to do well),
but the player also gains fame as a result. When players leave teams via free agency(Lebron James), they can have many new supporters(the new team's fans) but they also generate some hostility from the old fans.

Anyway, the exact amounts could vary whether voluntary or involuntary but players would be more likely to
try for renown if it was something that benefitted them personally as well as the guild.

And yes, both of those players had a positive impact on the "guilds" they joined.
For another example, check the buzz in Denver generated by Peyton Manning as well as the media circus
in NY for Tebow.
so, /signed for personal renown.

OK, good observation, however; There is a flaw:

It only works if everyone is a Payton Manning or a Tim Tebow.

Case in point: We had a guy leave our guild last week. Our guild leader endeavored to discover the reason. It turns out that the guy who left only wanted to be in the guild long enough to complete one quest. I don't know what the benefit of this is, but be that as it may, this guy is no Tim Tebow. So why should:

A) Our guild lose renown when this loser of a player leaves? (We should actually get rewarded, for being spared the burden of having to boot him later on.)

B) Whatever new guild he arrives at be rewarded? He's a loser! If anything he brings a guild down in fame.

Now I understand that this is just a rare example, and granted he didn't gather much renown for us, but I hope you see my point. Some of us are good players, some are really good and some suck food off the bottom of the river. In order for your suggestion to work, there would have to be a way to measure individual fame (beyond the current "Total Renown Gathered"), so that each guild receives or loses the proper amount of renown when coming or going respectively.

dterror
08-20-2012, 01:57 PM
This is a really bad idea for one major reason: The ONLY thing this would promote is one guild attempting to steal members from another guild.

No. Just no.

Tshober
08-20-2012, 03:12 PM
This is a really bad idea for one major reason: The ONLY thing this would promote is one guild attempting to steal members from another guild.

No. Just no.

Yep, there's already plenty of incentive for that. No need to add more.

Silverwren
08-20-2012, 03:55 PM
Yep, there's already plenty of incentive for that. No need to add more.

I can't tell if my sarcasm detector is broken or not. :confused:

Tshober
08-20-2012, 04:55 PM
I can't tell if my sarcasm detector is broken or not. :confused:

I don't know if it's broken or not. But I can assure you that there was none to be detected in my comment that you quoted.

There is already plenty of incentive for guilds to lure players away from other guilds, particularly those players that are very active and gain lots of renown. The OP's suggestion would increase that incentive a little bit and would accomplish nothing else that I can see. So overall my assessment of the suggestion is it would do very little. And what little it did do would be harmful, but not greatly so because it would be so little when compared with the current system.

Does that help clarify?

dodger72
08-20-2012, 08:19 PM
Let's be honest here....you don't have to be a superstar at being a player to gain renown. We all know that. Shroud alone on a normal completion is quite a bit of renown. Picking up renown as an end reward (50 to 1k plus misc. bonus's based on guild size).

This is like when folks were complaining when there was "no xp to get at higher levels". There's plenty there, otherwise TR's wouldn't make it past thier first legend life.

Look at it this way:

Why do some guilds stay at lower levels? Either they don't want to be higher level or folks within the guild reap the benefits but don't do the work to get that next level. Great. No way to track that, nor should there be....but then again, why punish those that move on to another guild by not carrying that 10% of the sum total of what they earned?

Why do some guild gain momentum and top out? Cohesion, they're all on the same page with what they want to do as a group...or dare I say it....a guild. Now...here's the rub....with these "high-end" players (the Peyton Mannings as one might look at it) comes Type A personalities that will clash. Folks leave. Guild suffers.

Why do some guild seem to just remain at a certain level? They've gotten what they wanted out of the game insofar as the guild-race goes, so why bother? The +2 shrines are all there, two of the three shroud altars are available (with the 2nd being in Amrath...want it that bad? go get it), the basic resists are there at 30% (fire, ice, electricity, acid), along with the navigator and Amrath teleport.

Yes...the description of the last guild is the guild I am currentlly in, or rather what we have right now. Don't get me wrong...I like my guild. I like the people and don't see myself going anywhere anytime soon. We pluck along nicely, without drama or in-fighting. However, I would have liked to have contributed to the renown by giving that 10% of total renown that I earned...as something to bring to the table.

I've been in a few guilds on Thelanis and they've all had their strong points. I've even had my own guild for a while. But as times progressed and it was time to move on, and you go and apply, or ask, or get asked to join a guild, it's good to actually bring something to the guild outside of your toons. Sometimes those guilds are sacrificing a bonus to thier renown to take you on, and to be honest I can't really understand how this wouldn't be a positive thing to guilds to have retention of players.

dodger72
08-20-2012, 08:35 PM
...and just to throw this in there too....in case the jist was missed.

Player X earns 1,000,000 renown in Guild 1.

Player X leaves Guild 1 and takes 100,000 renown with him and joins Guild 2. Guild 2 doesn't quite meet the expectations of Player X....so Player X leaves after only building up to 110,000 renown (only earned 10k renown in the short time there...).

Player X leaves Guild 2 with 11,000 renown to his/her name to bring to Guild 3...or back to Guild 1.

In other words....guild hopping doesn't help.

herzkos
08-21-2012, 08:42 AM
OK, good observation, however; There is a flaw:

It only works if everyone is a Payton Manning or a Tim Tebow.

Case in point: We had a guy leave our guild last week. Our guild leader endeavored to discover the reason. It turns out that the guy who left only wanted to be in the guild long enough to complete one quest. I don't know what the benefit of this is, but be that as it may, this guy is no Tim Tebow. So why should:

A) Our guild lose renown when this loser of a player leaves? (We should actually get rewarded, for being spared the burden of having to boot him later on.)

B) Whatever new guild he arrives at be rewarded? He's a loser! If anything he brings a guild down in fame.

Now I understand that this is just a rare example, and granted he didn't gather much renown for us, but I hope you see my point. Some of us are good players, some are really good and some suck food off the bottom of the river. In order for your suggestion to work, there would have to be a way to measure individual fame (beyond the current "Total Renown Gathered"), so that each guild receives or loses the proper amount of renown when coming or going respectively.

The information that the OP wants to use is already being recorded. Specifically, when a character leaves
amicably the guild loses 10% of the renown gathered by that player while in that guild. Having ZERO knowledge
of DDO's database, it's an entry in a table.
The problem that I see is how to get that info to persist through being guildless until you join a new guild.
Without (of course) breaking hand wraps in new and interesting ways(and the shroud).

after posting and re-reading your post. I don't think we need "Personal renown" as another permanent add on.
it just needs to persist until the next time you join a guild. :) If you add 100K renown carried from another guild, there are two ways to handle it.
One, it could go into that guild and then be zeroed out. Two, it could go into the guild as part of "your contribution" to that guild.
In One, you wouldn't get any of that back the next time you left guild. in Two, you'd get 10% of what you carried last time when you left + whatever you've earned
for your new guild.

dterror
08-21-2012, 11:35 AM
The only way this would be a good idea is if there was some penalty for leaving a guild...such as 2 weeks where you cannot join a new guild at all. Until the guild you left is no longer penalized for your leaving, you cannot join a new one....and in the meantime, the personal renown you're taking with you decays at the rate that a 1 man guild with the level of the guild you left would decay, but with no way to gain new renown during the penalty period.