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OzmarDDO
08-13-2012, 11:46 AM
Ozmar's Class Advice

I've been playing this game for three years now. I do not believe that I am an expert. I only have one character at level 20, (well 21, now), and there are dozens of higher-level quests that I have never seen. I do, however, believe that I have extensive experience playing many classes (I am an altaholic) and am pretty familiar with the low to mid levels of the game. I've also played a lot of permadeath (max char level 14), as well as standard play, and run in a lot of PUGs.

With that in mind, here is my advice to the classes. Said advice is my opinion and hopefully will be helpful for new players, but is by no means guaranteed awesome. I'm eager to welcome other opinions.

General Advice:

Don't specialize. Each class is "best" at certain things, but no class is incapable of doing other things. Every character should be able to contribute helpfully to every party, and even a little bit of help is better than no help at all. The best example I can think of is this: the heal skill. If your ally is at -1 hps and bleeding, then you have a chance to help him. If you are carrying some healing kits, you can attempt to stabilize them. Even if you have no ranks in heal, all you need to do is roll a 15 or better, and he'll stop bleeding. If no one has healing spells or clickies, you might as well try. Its better than standing around and hoping that he stabilizes.

Every character should carry a ranged weapon. There are some circumstances when a foe is unreachable by melee, or a lever needs to be triggered from a range. Even if your character is no good at it, you should have one just in case it is needed.

Every character that can heal, should heal. You should have a spell or ability that can heal yourself or others. As in the above case, when your ally is unconscious, you can at least get them up and moving again. Even if you don't have a class spell or ability to heal, you can carry a magic item with Aid on it, for use in emergencies.

Every character wants lots of hit points, as many as possible. Toughness is not a bad feat for any character, and consider at least 14 Con on each character, if possible. The only exception I can think of is Sorcerers and Wizards, on which you might be fine simply avoiding damage and working in a party to avoid drawing too much aggro. Rogues are particularly squishy, and benefit from Toughness.

Be self-sufficient. If you are soloing, this is obvious, but also in a PUG, the less you need help, the more you can help. Always carry tons of healing potions. If you have a guild airship, use the buffs; if not, make sure you have a few potions in reserve for emergencies: jump, protection from fire/acid, aid, stat boosts, remove curse, remove paralysis, remove blindness. Note: you can use a remove curse potion on an ally. When you see that they are cursed, cure them!

Carry lots of weapons. You should have slashing for zombies, bludgeoning for skeles, and a ranged attack. You should have a muckbane, or a cheap wooden weapon for oozes (or use your fists if you are a druid or a monk). As you gain levels, try to have a Pure Good weapon (or holy), as well as weapons to bypass DR: chaotic/lawful (depending on your alignment), silver, metalline, ghost touch for incorporeal foes, flaming & frost weapons for elementals, flame or acid weapons for trolls. At even higher levels, piercing weapons are good on razor cats and certain spiders. This applies to almost all classes (except Sorc and Wiz, who should have spells for certain foes.)

Fortification: Everyone else says Fortification is important, especially at high levels. Who am I to disagree?

I always grab a quivver just to have it collect arrows that I might pick up. You can sell them later or trade them to desperate party members when they run out.

Artificer:

The artificer is hands down the best class in the game. It can basically do everything, and it does most things really well. It is very survivable. They can do traps. This is huge, as only Rogues and Artificers can do traps. All other classes basically just need to avoid or survive traps, and on at-level quests on elite, that can be deadly. They can repair themselves. Warforged artificers obviously rock in the self-healing department, but even other races can get an artificer class ability that allows them to use repair spells on themselves. Once you get Flame Turret, use it. It is a great spell. Set one down and draw the fighting into its range. Your crossbow is also a great weapon, allowing you to pick off most foes at a range and you have essentially unlimited bolts. Your dog is also a great asset. I usually take Augment Summoning, which improves your dog and your turret, as well as any hirelings you bring along. Note: Curative Admixture: Cure Light Wounds - great to "splash" a potion on an ally who is unconscious. Will always be appreciated.
Dogs are excellent companions. They can open doors, turn levers, draw aggro and even carry your stone to the shrine. Keep and eye on them, though, as they can get stuck in traps and die unnecessarily. If you need to pass a difficult area, you can "box" them and call them back once it is safe again. This applies also to the druid's wolf.

Stats: High Int!, Cha for UMD, Con for HPs, Dex for shooting your crossbow. Str & Wis are dump stats. Your crossbow is so good, you probably never need to use melee weapons.
Feats: Augment Summoning, Point Blank Shot, Toughness
Spells: grab as many scrolls as you can and add them to your spellbook. Versatility means you can be prepared for whatever the quest needs. Flame Turret, Elemental Weapons is great for buffing the party, Stoneskin
Skills: Search, Disable, UMD should all be maxed.
Enhancements: There is one prestige enhancement, and it is worth getting. The fusillade ability is good for taking out foes fast.
Gear: use the best repeating crossbows and rune arms you can find. Also, have fun with crafting, as you can enhance your rune arms and make useful items for your doggie. Docents of invulnerability, for example, are great.

Barbarian:

Barbarians are actually harder to play at mid- to high- levels, owing to their lack of self-healing, and the difficulty in getting a high AC. Their strength is Strength. A barbarian wants to have lots of hit points. Hit points are their bread-and-butter, so take Toughness! Take all the toughness enhancements! In addition to hit points, a barbarian survives by making sure the bad guys die before they can kill him, so he wants to maximize dps. This usually means a really big axe, or two weapons. I usually go for power attack and cleave, but barbarians don't get as many feats as fighters, so it can take a while to get all the feats you want. The other advantage for barbarians is they have limited damage avoidance and mitigation abilities that have to be activated. So you want to time their use for key engagements. Playing a barbarian well is actually more than simply charging ahead and smashing everything in your path. You have to be able to learn the combat system and take advantage of the situation to kill the most dangerous foes quickly, relying on your dodge and damage reduction and hit points to stay alive. At low levels, this is generally easy; at higher levels, I find that I can't survive without a healer.

Stats: Con, Str! Dex maybe, and rest are dumps. Might want Wis to help will saves or Cha for intimidate.
Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, Toughness, Cleave, Toughness, Two-handed Fighting, Toughness
Spells: n/a
Skills: Doesn't seem that these matter much. I usually take Jump and Swim, just to get around easier. Maybe intimidate.
Enhancements: Toughness. Also improve your rage a lot. You should rage often, but be wise about it. Don't burn out all your rage before the end fight if there is no shrine. Also, DR boosts are key to survivability. I like Speed Boost for extra running speed. You are going to want the Prestige Enhancement, so don't forget you need Power Attack and Cleave to qualify.
Gear: Big axe. As much armor as you can wear, and also a ranged weapon or two, and a maul for skeles. If you find clickies for healing or aid, take them. And be prepared to spend all your gold on healing potions. Or hire cleric NPCs. Or both.

Bard:

Bards are actually a pretty decent class in this game: they have the ability to do lots of useful things and a good boosts for any party. They benefit the party well with lots of handy buffs, and are decent fighters besides. You want to max your perform skill, because that benefits your bardic music. Learn how the songs work and use them. Take cure light wounds as one of your early spells, so you can always contribute to healing. Even if you don't you can use cure wands, so keep a few wands with you to help out. Maximize your UMD, as that can allow you to use scrolls and at higher levels, you can use raise dead scrolls in emergencies.

Stats: Cha should be maxed. Con, Dex & Str, as well as Int and Wis, in that order.
Feats: Toughness, Extend Spell might be good, as well as SF: Enchantment, depending on spell selection
Spells: Cure Light Wounds, Sonic Blast, Charm Person, Blur, at higher levels Heroism, Otto's Sphere, & Good Hope
Skills: Perform, UMD, Bluff, Dipl, and maybe Intim?
Enhancements: Improve your bard song, improve magic and spells that you take, pick a prestige enhancement and go for it. Note they require certain feats, so plan ahead.
Gear: Rapier, Perform boosting item, ranged weapon

Cleric:

Wear heavy armor, use weapons. Get into the melee and help fight. When people are low on HPs, top them off. Take the prestige enhancement and use radiant burst in melee. It is super useful. Make sure your cleric has some Cha (at least 12 or 14). Always prep some useful healing and buff spells. If you see people taking acid damage from a melf's arrow, hit them with prot-acid. You can ask who needs buffs, or just examine them (select character, hit Z) to see what active spells they have. If you are in Proof is in the Poison, and you see someone doesn't have prot-acid, then give it to them! You'll be glad you did when they don't die and leave you to fight alone. Don't be a "battle cleric" who "can't heal". A cleric CAN heal, and should heal. You can be a "battle cleric" and fight and kill and be very tough, but you can still heal. So don't limit yourself. You can heal, and should heal, even if that's not your primary role or style.

Stats: Wis is needed for spells, and Cha is strongly recommended for turning and especially for your aura. Con of course. Others to taste.
Feats: I like Augment Summoning, but Empower Healing is definitely a must! Toughness is good, as always. Improved Turning might also be good.
Spells: you get all spells, so just use them and see what works best, and prepare them according to the needs of the quest. I like Cure, Sound Burst, Protection from Elements, Summon Monster V, & Blade Barrier
Skills: Concentration. Need to be able to cast spells in melee. Beyond that, probably doesn't matter.
Enhancements: Radiant Servant. Anything and everything that improves your healing spells.
Gear: Heavy armor, shield, mace. Depending on what you are proficient in, get some kind of ranged weapon and slashing weapon. Generally you're not as good a fighter as the melee classes, so rely on summons, hirelings, and party members to help you take down your foes.

Druid:

Another awesome class with lots of flexibility. I haven't played this one into higher levels yet, but clearly they have lots of fun potential. IMO, Augment Summoning is a great feat for this class, as you have a powerful pet and can summon strong animals as allies. You can heal, and vigor spells are useful for keeping your allies up and about. One weakness you do have is in the ranged department, as you are only proficient in darts. But if you are an elf, you can use bows, which helps a lot. The druid forms seem to be the best for melee combat, but the flame blade is also a very awesome spell, so YMMV. If you splash ranger for TWF, then dual wield them and have fun!

Stats: Wis, Con, Str or Dex, possibly Cha, Int is dump stat
Feats: Augment Summoning, Toughness, maybe Empower Healing
Spells: all are available, mix and match. Always summon pets. Your animal forms have special spells/attacks, which are really quite awesome. Frost is a good DOT spell and can help take down enemies at range, but doesn't work on skeles.
Skills: Concentration, Intimidate, Diplomacy or Bluff
Enhancements: Toughness, Spell boosts, Blood Moon Frenzy, lots of cool enhancements with cool names. Pick a prestige and go for it.
Gear: Fintan's Bite is awesome at low levels. Pick up weapons for their bonus enchantments: fire, frost, Pure Good, etc... and then just shift to wolf/bear for slash/bludgeoning as needed. Try to find some kind of ranged, even if it is just darts. Flame blade is frankly awesome.

Favored Soul:

Always take cure light wounds as an early spell. I like sound burst for a L2 spell, as spamming that into large crowds often helps the party take them down fast. Favored souls can heal. Don't be a favored soul who can't heal. You can be an awesome melee fighter and kick butt, but you can still heal, so don't gimp yourself. I am not as familiar with this class, but it seems that they can be good melee warriors, with spells and special abilities to back them up and healing on top.

Stats: Wis/Cha for spells, Con for HPs, and Str/Dex for melee. Int is a dump stat.
Feats: Augment Summon or Empower Healing, or Empower/Maximize, depending on spell selection. Toughness always good.
Spells: Cure Light Wounds, Sound Burst, Searing Light (excellent against vampires and many undead, also has good range), at higher levels take Raise Dead (or carry these scrolls!) and definitely take Blade Barrier!
Skills: Concentration
Enhancements: pick a prestige enhancement you like and go for it - get some cool abilities
Gear: your favorite weapons and armor. Make sure you have some ranged, and don't forget wands and scrolls. You can use them, so use them.

Fighter:

Weak due to lack of self-healing, but great for lots of feats. Always take toughness. I usually take Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus. Find your favorite weapon(s) and take all the feats and enhancements that improve them. High AC and intimidate can be used to "tank". This works especially well if you have a rogue friend, as you can draw all the foes to you, and while you are fighting them, he can sneak attack and help finish them off fast. This is a strong class at lower levels, but begins to need healing support at higher levels, as it is not possible to mitigate all damage, and he can't heal himself.

Stats: Str, Con, Dex, Cha, (Wis, Int dumps)
Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Improved WF, Greater WF, Improved Crit, Great Cleave, etc... lots of feats, so use them to max your attack and damage.
Spells: n/a
Skills: Intimidate, Jump. You don't need to be a "tank", but grab aggro w/e you can, draw them in for a cleave and get them off the archers, rogues, healers, spell casters, basically everyone else.
Enhancements: Kensai is awesome, and really lets you focus on your favorite weapons.
Gear: heavy armor. Shield if you want to tank, or TWF or THF if you want to dish out damage.

Monk:

Monks are great. They can do decent dps, and can heal themselves. A light monk can be even more helpful for the party, as they can learn to heal (slight hp healing) as well as remove curses, blindness and even raise the dead. They are also very survivable, because they have great saves and evasion, and can avoid a lot of damage. Get an invulnerability item - it helps a lot! And their movement is addictive. Once you start jumping and running everywhere, you may not want to play any other class.

Stats: Int & Cha are dumps, all the others are important. Wis/Dex for AC & abilities, Con for HPs, and Str for damage.
Feats: you get some good bonus feats. Don't forget Toughness. TWF helps your unarmed attacks, so its a good choice. I personally like Dodge, Mobility, & Spring Attack
Spells: n/a
Skills: Concentration, Jump, Tumble
Enhancements: Use these to get special attacks. Note that high-level stances require certain minimums on stats, so if you want the max stance, plan for this. (Fire Str 18, Air Dex 18, Stone Con 18, Water Wis 18) Also, you'll pick either Dark or Light path, and can take prestige enhancements based on this. Pick one and take the prestige. Dark does more DPS (lots more!) and Light gets more healing. They are both awesome.
Gear: handwraps, robes/outfits. Get an invulnerability item if you can. Collect wraps. You can use quarterstaffs and kamas and other weapons, but I have not found them to be as good as fists generally. Some feats let you use longswords or bows as monk weapons, and they might be good. I like using Zen Archery, because shuriken are kinda lame for ranged.

Paladin:

Strong fighter, good AC. Wear heavy armor, take intimidate, and tank. Make sure you have a decent Cha, and use your LOHs for emergency heals. You can also use cure wands. Your Lay On Hands ability is good, and quick to use. It is a great emergency heal for yourself or an ally who is down to single-digits. With good Cha and boosts, it will heal a large amount of damage. Your smites are also nice, allowing you to deal a lot of damage on evil foes, and they regenerate, so don't be shy about using them. If you are an elf, you can get Undying Call and raise the dead at level 6. If you are a drow, Vulkoor's Avatar is a great companion up to level 12 or so.

Stats: Cha, Str, Con, with enough Wis for spells, and dump Int. Dex is ok, but not much is needed, as you'll want to max armor and AC.
Feats: Toughness
Spells: don't get them right away, but later you can use cure wands, and have a few spells to boost your fighting skills
Skills: Intimidate. Not sure if any others matter. Maybe concentration.
Enhancements: There are three prestige, so pick one and go for that. Boost your number of turns, and at higher levels you can use them for other things. Also, you can raise the dead at level 9 with the right enhancement, so take it.
Gear: Heavy armor, big shields, longswords (or exotic to Khopesh). You pretty much want to tank, unless you splash multiclass, which is also good. Don't forget a ranged weapon!

Ranger:

Can use cure wands. Good dps. Excellent fighters. I think khopeshes can be great melee weapons, so take the exotic wpn prof and dual-wield them. Also you can be great with bows. Go for manyshot. Don't specialize. Don't ONLY fight in melee or ONLY use ranged. You can do both! And do them very well.

Stats: Need enough Wis for spells at later levels, otherwise you want Con, Dex and Str. Cha and Int are dump stats.
Feats: Toughness. You get plenty of TWF and Ranged feats for free, so take the others that expand on this, like PBS, TWD, Manyshot, Oversized TWF, etc... Consider exotic wpn Khopesh for your TWFing.
Spells: you get them all, so use whatever works. I like Longstrider, and Barkskin.
Skills: You get plenty of skills, but they don't matter much. Jump is probably the most useful. Can use search and spot also, and perhaps tumble.
Enhancements: I like speed boost. You can also get energy resist boost which is nice at lower levels in critical situations. Otherwise, max your toughness and any skills you like. The prestige enhancements are great, so pick one and go for it.
Gear: Max your TWF or Ranged, but don't neglect the other. You should be best at your primary form of attack, and also great at the secondary. Get good weapons & armor, and a good bow. You'll probably want backup bludgeoning weapons, ooze beaters, etc... in pairs, so you can use TWF whenever possible.

Rogue:

This is the only class that can do traps. They are essential. Well, artificers can do traps also, but artificers do not get evasion. A multiclassed artificer (with rogue or monk) can be just as good as a rogue for traps, but otherwise, only a rogue can survive high level traps and disable them. Oh, and by the way, if you are a rouge, make sure you can do traps. Again, you can spec for an assassin or an acrobat, and that's great, but you can also do traps. Don't be a rogue who can't do traps. That's lame.
You can sneak up on a group of foes, and use bluff at a range on one to call him away towards you, then sneak attack him. This can be a good strategy to slowly take down mobs without having to fight them all at once.
Undead are your nemesis: they can't be sneak attacked! You will almost always want to quest with a group, so they can grab aggro while you sneak around and stab people in the kidneys. Ranged attacks can be useful, but let your allies grab aggro first.

Stats: Int/Dex - don't skimp on these. Cha is good for UMD & Bluff. You want Con. Wis & Str are less important, esp. if you take Weapon Finesse.
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Search), PBS if you use ranged a lot.
Spells: n/a
Skills: there is no reason you can't max out: Search, Disable, Open Locks, UMD, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, & Bluff. Other skills are useful as well, but these should always be maxed.
Enhancements: Skill Boost, and boost your Search & Disable. Boost other skills to taste, and take a prestige enhancement.
Gear: Light armor, light weapons, a ranged weapon. You will want to sneak around, avoid aggro, and sneak attack whenever possible. Get skill boosting items as high as you can, especially on Search and Disable. If you can't find the trap, you can't disable it. And carry thieve's tools. They are needed. If you have multiple sets, put the best set first in your pack (upper-left corner on first bag), and they'll be used first.

Sorcerer:

You are going to want to pick an elemental focus and spec for it. But also have a few spells outside that focus for monsters that are immune to your spec. I like acid, but they are all good. Take Empower and Maximize and turn them on. Maximize your element's enhancements. Do lots of damage! You have tons of spell points, so pick your favorite damage-dealing spells and start spamming them. Best part: your inherent spells are improved by your MM feats, but do not increase their cost! My second-highest level is a L17 warforged sorcerer earth savant. His inherent melf's acid arrow is obscene. I pick foes off and just watch them die, taking 100-200 dmg per tick. In an emergency, an acid rain deals 400 damage or more, and usually melts all foes into puddles of goo. Great spells (applies to wizards, too): Stoneskin, Protection from Elements, Haste, Firewall, Acid Arrow, Invisibility, Blur, Knock (note: you may not want to learn some of these spells, since your selection is limited; if not, make sure you carry scrolls of certain "utility" spells for emergencies. Example: Knock, Detect Secret Doors, Heroism (to help the party rogue find that trap), Dimension Door. You can't heal, but a Bear's Endurance might get someone up from negative hps long enough to drink a potion.)

Stats: Cha, Con, Dex. Str, Int and Wis are dump stats. You want Cha. Lots of it. Maximize it.
Feats: Empower, Maximize, anything that boosts your favorite spells, Spell Penetration
Spells: see above
Skills: Concentration, UMD, Diplomacy or Bluff
Enhancements: Improve your spell power! Also, go for the prestige enhancements, they are awesome. Also, take the basic improvement for any energy that you can cast. You don't need to max them all out, but the basic enhancement is a nice boost for very few points. Subtle spellcasting is also good.
Gear: If you can get robes of invulnerability, great! Otherwise, use wands or implements that boost your spells. And use other gear that helps you run faster, jump higher, gives you blur or invisibility, or boosts your diplomacy. And carry an aid clicky or two. Oh, and a crossbow. They are simple weapons and you never know when you'll need a ranged attack.

Wizard:

Similar advice to Sorcerer, but you can learn all spells, so grab all the scrolls you find and learn them. That way, you can prepare your spell selection carefully tailored to the needs of a quest. Lots of the same spells are useful, but you can try out different spells more readily to see what works best. The necromancer prestige class seems to be the more powerful one, and the pets you can get with it are pretty decent, as well as your various undead forms. If you go this route, you might want to specialize in necromancy spells (which can be pretty awesome) and consider Augment Summoning feat.

Stats: Int, Con, Dex. Str, Wis & Cha are dump stats. You want to max Int.
Feats: Empower, Maximize, Augment Summoning, Toughness?, SF: Necromancy
Spells: collect 'em all, and use the ones that will be to your best advantage in the quest.
Skills: Concentration. Perversely, your high Int will give you lots of skill points, but you don't have many good skills. Max your UMD maybe? Or Search. Or splash a level in Rogue and take Disable. With maxed Search & Disable, then you will be able to handle traps.
Enhancements: Not sure if archmage is worth it, but necromancer is sweet! Take spell boosting enhancements, and go for your favorite prestige class.
Gear: Robes of invulnerability are nice. Otherwise, just try to avoid aggro, and carry a staff that boosts your spells. And an aid clicky. And a crossbow.



That's all my advice. For now. So enjoy! If you find this helpful, great! Have fun and enjoy DDO! It's an awesome game.

If you think this is bogus, go ahead and tell me why. I am eager to learn.

-Ozmar the Semi-Experienced Player

Archangel666
08-13-2012, 11:54 AM
Not a bad little guide.

One minor quibble, I personally don't consider CHA a dump stat on any class.

UMD is very helpful, even if you can't no-fail Heal Scrolls an 85% chance at a Stoneskin wand for example can be remarkably handy.

Minor quibble, but once again, nice little guide.

FrozenNova
08-13-2012, 12:34 PM
This doesn't really draw comparisons between the classes, or highlight their centerpieces.
It doesn't refer to the different ways of playing each class, either.

Wizards play almost completely differently to sorcerors, even though they're both arcanes. Wizards focus on crowd control and instakills, while sorcerors nuke the quest to the ground. They can both try their hand at the other's job, but are not nearly as effective.

I wouldn't threaten to call Rangers "good dps". Frankly the only class that the ranger can outdps at the moment is the paladin. The highlight of the ranger is that splashing for traps is a simple matter and they can spell-heal just as efficiently as paladins.

Speaking of which, paladin spell healing and saves need to be mentioned as the biggest feature making them distinct from fighters.

Favored souls only have one PrE right now.

There is no way your typical rogue is taking PBS or skill focus: search. Emphasize the availability of umd to a rogue.

Divines can focus on DC's or melee, and indeed most choose the former, though you only talk about the latter.
Similarly by far the most conventional bard these days is melee, though you suggest maxing cha.

Paladins and sorcerors also invest in UMD due to their high charisma. This makes it a bit silly to say that sorcerors "can't heal".

Improved turning for clerics could not be descibed as "might be good". You probably meant extra turning, which is a great way to fill a spare slot.

Intimidate isn't a "maybe" on barbarians. Barbarian intimidate imposes a -2 to saves on enemies it affects. You don't want to miss that. .. Swim, though..

Monks excel at stuns and other CC, especially the Light monks' jade strike and kukan-do. Ought to be mentioned in there.

Rangers and Paladins dump wisdom. Wizards and Sorcerors dump dex. Don't include these in stats.

You seem to think that toughness is mandatory on barbarians. This is far from the case. In fact, barbarian is the only class right now I'd consider skipping toughness on.

If you go pale master, you have to specialize in necromancy, as (greater) focus: necromancy are preqs. There isn't a "might" there.

Including common splashes would be a good idea. Barbarians, paladins, bards, clerics, frequently splash 2 fighter for various reasons. The 18/2 wizards. The 18/1/1 rangers.

OzmarDDO
08-13-2012, 12:40 PM
...(snip)...

Thanks! That's good advice. I didn't know that about Intimidate. I should probably look at that for my barbarians.

Why would Rangers and Paladins dump Wis? Don't they need a min of 14 for all their spells? Or are you thinking that 10 is a dump and they can just use items to get access to their spells?

Also: really? No toughness on barbarians? I'm surprised. I would have thought it would be absolutely recommended. You can never have too many HPs, right?

-Ozmar the Curious

kauetomaz
08-13-2012, 12:48 PM
not to rain on any1s parade. altough i appreciate that u tryin to help new players i think most of us can agree that some of ur tips are really far off. have a lil read through other guides out there or play the classes (or the game) for a lil longer before advising on it.
ps: not tryin to be derogatory or say anything of the like, i just really think new players shjould not head into the game thinkin of gettin augment summon, dex and things like that on wiz for example and most ppl that know what they doin would agree

FrozenNova
08-13-2012, 12:49 PM
Thanks! That's good advice. I didn't know that about Intimidate. I should probably look at that for my barbarians.

Why would Rangers and Paladins dump Wis? Don't they need a min of 14 for all their spells? Or are you thinking that 10 is a dump and they can just use items to get access to their spells?

Also: really? No toughness on barbarians? I'm surprised. I would have thought it would be absolutely recommended. You can never have too many HPs, right?

-Ozmar the Curious

Because paladins absolutely cannot spare those two points. Start with 8, use a +6 stat item to hit 14 to cast all your spells. Rangers occasionally can spare those extra two points, but they're better spent in int while the ranger goes the same way. You're going to have to wear a wis item either way in order to cast your spells - doesn't make sense to have those points wasted.

Toughness, with enhancements, represents maybe ~60 hitpoints to a barbarian. A barbarian who's already standing on 800 to begin with. Consider a half orc pure barbarian, with 9 feats.
THF, ITHF, GTHF, Improved critical, Power attack, Cleave: Six feats.
Great cleave, Overwhelming critical: Two feats.
Now he has to choose between toughness, stunning blow, and improved sunder. And that's not a one-sided choice by any means.

OzmarDDO
08-13-2012, 01:03 PM
Because paladins absolutely cannot spare those two points. Start with 8, use a +6 stat item to hit 14 to cast all your spells. Rangers occasionally can spare those extra two points, but they're better spent in int while the ranger goes the same way. You're going to have to wear a wis item either way in order to cast your spells - doesn't make sense to have those points wasted.

Toughness, with enhancements, represents maybe ~60 hitpoints to a barbarian. A barbarian who's already standing on 800 to begin with. Consider a half orc pure barbarian, with 9 feats.
THF, ITHF, GTHF, Improved critical, Power attack, Cleave: Six feats.
Great cleave, Overwhelming critical: Two feats.
Now he has to choose between toughness, stunning blow, and improved sunder. And that's not a one-sided choice by any means.

I guess that's a good point. Barbarians are pretty starved for feats as it is, so there is definitely a choice to be made there.

Kinda makes me want to make a new barbarian and try it out. Maybe a half-orc...

I like my WF barbarian because he is never fatigued from rage. But he's hard to heal. Did I screw myself on the healing for a limited benefit (no fatigue?) or is that a fair trade? I am not sure...

-Ozmar the Newb...

FrozenNova
08-13-2012, 01:07 PM
I guess that's a good point. Barbarians are pretty starved for feats as it is, so there is definitely a choice to be made there.

Kinda makes me want to make a new barbarian and try it out. Maybe a half-orc...

I like my WF barbarian because he is never fatigued from rage. But he's hard to heal. Did I screw myself on the healing for a limited benefit (no fatigue?) or is that a fair trade? I am not sure...

-Ozmar the Newb...

Yes, you more or less screwed yourself over.
Lesser restore potions are dirt cheap and remove fatigue from level 1.
All barbarians suffer no fatigue starting level 17.
WF barbarians are horrible to heal, even with repair (arcanes don't invest in repair lines, for clear reasons).
Horcs are far ahead in damage.



Kinda makes me want to make a new barbarian and try it out. Maybe a half-orc...

Right now I'm levelling an 18/2 horc - that way he has enough feats for all of sunder, stun, and toughness. Damage is slightly lower but I think having all the feats as well as having haste boost available as well as damage boost (allbeit not at the same time) is a fair trade.

Ryiah
08-13-2012, 01:15 PM
Don't specialize. Each class is "best" at certain things, but no class is incapable of doing other things. Every character should be able to contribute helpfully to every party, and even a little bit of help is better than no help at all. The best example I can think of is this: the heal skill. If your ally is at -1 hps and bleeding, then you have a chance to help him. If you are carrying some healing kits, you can attempt to stabilize them. Even if you have no ranks in heal, all you need to do is roll a 15 or better, and he'll stop bleeding. If no one has healing spells or clickies, you might as well try. Its better than standing around and hoping that he stabilizes.

I skimmed a bit but wanted to mention this part. I could understand newbies using healing kits, but a player who points out that he has been playing for three years should really know better. Dump Heal and take UMD instead. With UMD you get access to so much more and a Cure Light Wounds wand takes very little effort to use but is much more likely to bring someone from incap to moving again. Healing kits are slow and run the risk of the incapped player dying if a melee enemy runs up to smack you while you use it.

At later stages, with gear and buffs, you'll be able to take that UMD and gain access to Heal and Raise Dead scrolls which are far more effective.

Indoran
08-13-2012, 01:17 PM
on Wizard and Sorceror. Con is not a dump stat. Actually it is not a dump stat for ANY class. take 14 always at least. If caster take 16-18-20 as much as you can as long as you max your casting score.

On Archmage... Awesome... if you are a WF. if not... go palemaster. Caster that can't self heal is gimp. and needing to use scrolls to heal makes no sense in wizard. Actually also if you are a WF going palemaster is a good option.

On Fvs and Bard. you are not really clarifying the stats required. You should point out there are different builds.

For example for FvS the WF melee FvS with greatsword, vs the evoker, vs the lame healbot :3 and how each requires a different investment in points. the first two dump charisma, the first in favor of Str, the second in favor of wisdom.

Also there is a good soloer offensive caster build for people with LOTS of patience that dumps wisdom and centers on using divine punishment (not my playstyle).

On Bard. you can actually take as little as 12 cha and be an excellent bard, also multiclass with rogue and you will be meleeing, doing traps, casting and buffing... it's not my build of course, but you know there are lots of khan's running around.

On the heal skill... agree with Ryiah. It's not worth it.

Btw I have played for a bit over 3 years... and I used heal only once or twice... it's also lame you need to carry around healing kits. Use the aid clicky at low levels, and gh clicky can be available 9 onward, cure light wounds wand are a better option yet unless you are a barbarian :P During a fight Time is without a doubt one if not the most valuable resource. Heal is not time efficient and is a waste of skill points.

fco-karatekid
08-13-2012, 01:42 PM
...Why would Rangers and Paladins dump Wis? Don't they need a min of 14 for all their spells? ...

Just depends - one can get away with 8 prime stat and a +6 item, if only casting (ranger, for example) FOM, strider, and ram's might - PLENTY of HP then left over for self-healing.

If you have the attribute points to spare (say life #2 or #3) and want to keep the long duration resistance and protection spells up (I'm lazy - don't wanna drink every 5-7 minutes), put a couple points and/or enhancement AP into WIS for the SP.

My AA's stay sp poor (except when I played around with splashing a level of wiz - omg, that overdid it... TOO many SP); my tempest took an extra couple wis points. I've done it both ways, and neither really is the RIGHT way - it's how the player plays them.

Ryiah
08-13-2012, 02:13 PM
Fortification: Everyone else says Fortification is important, especially at high levels. Who am I to disagree?

Thought I'd point out why it is so important. Fortification stops critical hits and sneak attacks. At high levels you will be dealing with enemies that already hit for a good deal with normal hits. Critical hits can be devastating. As an example, I went into Sins of Attrition on Elite to see how hard the Bearded Devils hit. On a critical hit, I was seeing between 150 and 200 damage. For characters with low HP, that can be half their health in one hit.

Also one thing to keep in mind for high levels is that enemies start gaining the ability to bypass Fortification. Thus a Heavy Fortification item may grant 100% but against enemies that bypass it won't provide full protection. You can supplement your Fortification by getting Exceptional Fortification items as well as from Epic Destiny abilities.

OzmarDDO
08-13-2012, 02:32 PM
I skimmed a bit but wanted to mention this part. I could understand newbies using healing kits, but a player who points out that he has been playing for three years should really know better. Dump Heal and take UMD instead. With UMD you get access to so much more and a Cure Light Wounds wand takes very little effort to use but is much more likely to bring someone from incap to moving again. Healing kits are slow and run the risk of the incapped player dying if a melee enemy runs up to smack you while you use it.

At later stages, with gear and buffs, you'll be able to take that UMD and gain access to Heal and Raise Dead scrolls which are far more effective.

Good point. I guess my experience with Permadeath is showing there. I didn't think of using UMD for CLW wands. The DC is only 20, so that is a good option.

Heal skill is definitely for low-levels. My point is not to invest skill points in it, but just that everyone can at least attempt to use it, and should, if all else fails, rather than sitting around and watching an ally bleed out, at least try, you know? :) (But try after a fight, not during! :)

But yeah, for character builds, UMD makes sense. The heal skill makes no sense. Totally agree with that.

-Ozmar the Converted

Stormraiser
08-13-2012, 02:37 PM
I like the long and detailed writeup you did of the classes, and skimmed over most of it, but there are some basic errors. You also need to differentiate between fact and opinion and give a bit less advice if you have not played the class.

Some things to point out:

Artificer -
The artificer is hands down the best class in the game [I personally do not agree, and this is an opinion anyway]
Barbarians:
Multiple toughness feats are really bad. [The trend now is to go cleaves instead of THF. Intimidate is a must. Jump past 10 is a waste.]
Cleric:
Make sure your cleric has some Cha (at least 12 or 14). [Why, just for extra turns? Eh. to each his own]
If you see people taking acid damage from a melf's arrow, hit them with prot-acid [resist energy is superior.]
I like Augment Summoning - [this is most likely a waste on a cleric. much better feats available]
so rely on summons, hirelings [This is one of the few classes that should NOT have a hireling]
FVS:
Feats: Augment Summon [once again, no.]
Monk:
I personally like Dodge, Mobility, & Spring Attack [ Mobility and spring attack are ok if you want to get more dodge, but stunning fist and improved sunder are much better ]
Paladin:
You pretty much want to tank [no, you pretty much want to kill things, but your dps is hurting, so it is harder then other classes. But you are very sturdy, especially with an evasion splash] - [Dump wisdom]
Sorc:
You can't heal, but a Bear's Endurance might get someone up from negative hps long enough to drink a potion.) [Rage does the same, but better]
Wizard:
(Augment summon) - [Is terrible, grab a feat that lets you use your int modifier instead of Dex to reflex and dump dex.]

General:
(Augment summon) - terrible
Swim skill - terrible
traps : Anyone with 1 class of rogue or artificer and the proper planning can do traps well.
Toughness : more then one is overkill and a bad choice.
Invulnerability: It spawns on all armor, not just robes.
Get the "starting package" as soon as possible:
100 remove disease potions
100 remove blindness potions
100 lesser restoration potions
100 remove curse potions
1 range weapon
1 big blunt weapon
1 slashing weapon
1 piercing weapon

Make sure you have a plan in mind when you're making your character, or you might found out that things you want to do later, are not possible.

-Storm

captain1z
08-13-2012, 08:26 PM
DDO is a fairly deep and complex game to the point where you can play for several years and still learn a better way of doing something. We taking shakey stumbling steps in our efforts to more completely understand DDOs many layers, classes, feats, skills, spells, ect. In between those steps we have small successes which we learn to apply in varied ways across our whole game experience. WE MAKE LOTS OF MISTAKES ALONG THE WAY. Those mistakes are important, its not enough to know that heavy fort is good, you need to understand WHY its good. You need to play the game with and without toughness, to understand how important it is for you personally.

In this learning process I dont think its a good idea to take a year one player and feed him year 6 player theory. However, year 3 or 4 ideas a perfectly ok as it lets the player evolve and understand, rather than attempt to poorly immitate. In that respect, this guide is effective in giving new players more info than they will find on the character creation menu and still leaves them room to evolve into a player of better understanding.

If everyone told you, never take augment summoning and you listened, you'd never know in what ways it is useful; though its usefulness may not apply to all classes.

+1 to the op for making a difference with his guide. Keep your chin up, right or wrong there will always be critics. Your guide will aid those it was meant to.

FuzzyDuck81
08-14-2012, 02:16 AM
A few non-optimal bits & pieces but otherwise a pretty solid overview as a guide & definitely a good starting point for new players.

One thing that caught me at the top though was "dont specialise" - i'd have to amend that to "dont overspecialise" - A character that can only ever do one thing, in my book, is one who can be very good in a tight-knit group of skilled players but as soon as they step out of that very narrow role they become extremely vulnerable, and accidents, bad luck on saves etc. can, do, and will happen - having a few backup alternative skills can make all the difference.

In my experience, a good bet is to consider a primary focus for a character, then a secondary skillset, then have some tertiary skills, eg. a casting based cleric will often primarily be an offensive spellcaster (bladebarrier, cometfall, implosion, destruction, greater command are all great spells), with some decent healing as the secondary skillset (in a halfway decent group you shouldn't need to be healing all the time) & tertiary skill is the ability to pick up a weapon & swing away, as even though you may not do much damage having a debuffing-type weapon can still be useful.
Alternatively, that character could be built in such a way that it's primary focus is in being a melee dps type (you wont be the top but with good equipment & build you're no slouch either), secondary in healing (self-centered mass Heals & mass cures are very easy, plus that healing aura makes this totally viable) with tertiary skill in offensive spellcasting, eg. stacking divine punishment on bosses to supplement your dps.

Hephaistor
08-14-2012, 02:49 AM
Don't specialize. Each class is "best" at certain things, but no class is incapable of doing other things. Every character should be able to contribute helpfully to every party, and even a little bit of help is better than no help at all. The best example I can think of is this: the heal skill. If your ally is at -1 hps and bleeding, then you have a chance to help him. If you are carrying some healing kits, you can attempt to stabilize them. Even if you have no ranks in heal, all you need to do is roll a 15 or better, and he'll stop bleeding. If no one has healing spells or clickies, you might as well try. Its better than standing around and hoping that he stabilizes.



I would say: Specialize!Jsut don't go full ******. You should not only rely on one spell, skill or feat, but get the best for the role you want your toons to be shine in. Everything that needs a DC (Spells or feats like stunning blow) is more or less a make-or-break thing. Don't be medicore, it doesn't work out. (Exsept for our new AC and to hit system perhaps.) For everything else there is gear and clickies. For example you should better carry the bracers of aid from Krotos with you instead of a healing kit (or even invest some points into the heal skill.) This little clicky everyone can get a pal back to positiv hitpoints and not just stop the bleeding to death.

OzmarDDO
08-14-2012, 07:55 AM
+1 to the op for making a difference with his guide. Keep your chin up, right or wrong there will always be critics. Your guide will aid those it was meant to.

Aw, thanks! I appreciate the supportive comments. *blush*

Yeah, I know I have a lot to learn. I didn't mean to imply that "I know everything" because I've been playing for three years - just that I wanted to give people an accurate sense of where I'm coming from, and then they can judge for themselves. And naturally, this is all my opinion, I could be (and probably am) wrong in many respects. Take it for what it's worth. :D

I hope that my guide helps some people, and gives others something to think about, and gives others a motivation to correct me and give me more to think about. I love this game, and am always eager to learn and try new things.

-Ozmar the Philosopher

grgurius
08-14-2012, 08:24 AM
How about you wait a bit till you know more about classes, lost of bad advices there.

Most glaring ones for me are the ones for barbarians, paladins and sorcerers. Maybe i'll go more in detail when i have more time, but here is some points that are missing from the op or would be better:

- more then one toughnes on a barb, barbarian is a pretty feat starved, i'm actually thinking that toughness would be the safest feat to drop on a barbarian

- no umd mentioned for paladins?

- cha, con, str for sorcs, in that order of importance, rest dump

- its safe for paladins to dump wis

- s&b only for paladins?, THF would be best for inexperienced players, then you can dump anything but str, con and cha

- quicken feat is great for paladins and rangers that plan on selfhealing

- heal amp gear is pretty important for paladins and rangers that self heal

- bluff is a wasted skill on a sorc

- no mention of balance for any of the classes?

- some points into jump if you have spare skill points on any class

susiedupfer
08-14-2012, 08:58 AM
And druid is pretty bad also. You should not be posting instructions for newbies if you do not know what you are talking about.

Newbies: There are excellent resources in the New Player Advice and Guidance section written by Tihocan. These are good starter builds. If you need a better build, ask a high level(23 or more) cleric or FVS on your server that has the respect of most people. NEVER take cleric or FVS build advice from anyone who thinks artis are the best class in the game. Also, never take build advice from melee. They will tell you to be a healbot, and all wrong at that.

All classes should carry the following pots:
Remove Curse
Remove Disease
Remove Blindness
Lesser Restoration
Neutralize Poison
If you do not get Madstone Raged, you should buy them from the vendor in the marketplace so you can use them on, or trade them to, others.

karl_k0ch
08-14-2012, 09:48 AM
Quite an ambitious project, and so many different play styles to cover. Even if you pick a pure class, and a prestige enhancement, there are still so many variations of allocating Stat points and feats.


Rogue:
There are some useful hints in there, but also pointers towards unnecessary specializations.

I consider Str, Dex, Int and Con roughly similarly important, with a nod towards the stat you want to use to increase your damage (which includes here high int for Assassinate, high dex for a small set of weaponry, and high Str for Rapiers and Khopeshes).

For feats, spending a feat for Finesse is an investment which should be well thought over, and not a no-brainer at all.
Usually, picking the full two-weapon fighting line offers you the best way to apply sneak attack damage. Improved Critical enhances your damage when not being able to get sneak attacks, even against undead and elementals.

Skill Focus: Search is completely wasted; if there is one Skill Focus worth taking on a rogue, it's UMD.

For Prestige Enhancements, Mechanic is quite useful for leveling, at least until 12, and Assassin is considered to be the best choice for DPS reasons. Acrobat is more of a flavor choice, and is best combined with a deep splash of 'melee' class levels (Monk, Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin).

And finally: You don't need to be in stealth mode in order to get SA damage. So only sneak when needed. There is no reason not to keep up with the fighter and stabbing the mobs which are aggro'd on him.

For further reading, I highly recommend Draccus' Basic, universal rogue build advice (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=274155) (which is a bit outdated in some parts, but full of great info) as well as The Notes from a Dancing Rogue (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Notes_from_a_Dancing_Rogue), which is a bit more outdated, but even fuller of great info. Some feats and mechanics might have changed, but the general playstyle and build advices of these guides hold still true.

OzmarDDO
08-14-2012, 09:53 AM
Improved Critical enhances your damage when not being able to get sneak attacks, even against undead and elementals.



? Aren't undead and elementals both immune to critical hits?

-Ozmar the Confused :confused:

KillEveryone
08-14-2012, 10:03 AM
I disagree with several statements because they are opinion and because of that, this thread isn't really a guide. Statements like arti is the best class is misleading and total opinion. Some may really like that class while others may not and would rate it in a very unfavorable light. I know you made the statement that your post is opinion but you titled the thread as a guide.

In some cases, CHA is strongly recomended for turning on clerics I feel are poor advice because it simply isn't true. Turning isn't quite as useful later on. It is nice for a extra number of bursts but they don't quite top off those high hp characters later on. It is nice that they regen but it isn't necessary to have a high CHA to make this ability useful.

With the variety of ways to build characters, many statements are just wrong. CHA on some bard builds should be maxed while other bard builds it isn't necessary to have beyond spell points.

karl_k0ch
08-14-2012, 10:03 AM
? Aren't undead and elementals both immune to critical hits?

-Ozmar the Confused :confused:

They are immune against Sneak Attack damage*, but their Fortification is 100%, effectively preventing any critical hits. However, there are various measures of reducing a Mob's fortification below 100%, e.g. Opportunist -10%, Improved Sunder -10%, Destruction -1 to -4%, Improved Destruction -2% to -8%, Grim Precision -5% to -15%, Insult -20%, Piercing Clarity -5% to - 10%, Shield of Condemnation -10% to - 50%; not all bonuses might apply at the same time.

This way, you can crit undead.

*: Even that can be bypassed by epic destinies.

Gawna
08-14-2012, 12:34 PM
Wow.

OzmarDDO
08-14-2012, 08:50 PM
I disagree with several statements because they are opinion and because of that, this thread isn't really a guide. Statements like arti is the best class is misleading and total opinion. Some may really like that class while others may not and would rate it in a very unfavorable light. I know you made the statement that your post is opinion but you titled the thread as a guide.


What's the difference between "a guide" and "an opinion"?

Anyway, I am thinking that there is something here to some of these ideas. Think I'll try another barbarian and see what I can do. Might want to splash a couple levels of fighter for the feats. But still thinking about toughness. It's hard not to like the extra hit points.

-Ozmar the Die Hard

OzmarDDO
08-14-2012, 08:52 PM
They are immune against Sneak Attack damage*, but their Fortification is 100%, effectively preventing any critical hits. However, there are various measures of reducing a Mob's fortification below 100%, e.g. Opportunist -10%, Improved Sunder -10%, Destruction -1 to -4%, Improved Destruction -2% to -8%, Grim Precision -5% to -15%, Insult -20%, Piercing Clarity -5% to - 10%, Shield of Condemnation -10% to - 50%; not all bonuses might apply at the same time.

This way, you can crit undead.

*: Even that can be bypassed by epic destinies.

That's weird. Well, it's different from PnP D&D. But I guess, why should I be surprised? This is DDO after all, and not everything is necessarily the same as D&D.

-Ozmar the Enlightened

KillEveryone
08-14-2012, 09:27 PM
What's the difference between "a guide" and "an opinion"?

Anyway, I am thinking that there is something here to some of these ideas. Think I'll try another barbarian and see what I can do. Might want to splash a couple levels of fighter for the feats. But still thinking about toughness. It's hard not to like the extra hit points.

-Ozmar the Die Hard

A guide would not state artificer is the best class hands down.

A guide could compare the pro's and cons with other classes but it does not make statements that you made.

I prefer wizard as the best class hands down. Since I stated it is such, then it is the best class hands down so your statement about artificer is wrong and misleading. See how that works now?

Your so called "guide" is opinion and with very little if at all unbiased fact.

DarkForte
08-15-2012, 12:48 AM
A virtual -1 for the disservice and misinformation to unsuspecting newer players. A guide isn't a collection of opinions in the same way a collection of windows stacked upon each other isn't a house. Your opinions should decorate the hard facts in the guide to help people make informed decisions.

Your experience is too little to convey the huge breadth of information you intend to with this guide. By giving advice on classes you haven't played enough (leveled from 1 to cap, and stayed at cap or leveled multiple times, with a variety of different builds), it's a foregone conclusion that you'll get it wrong.

To tell one way of building/gearing a class is better than the other (and by writing a guide, you're making an implicit statement to that effect), one would either need numerical evidence (i.e. it's better to build your barb with cleave and overwhelming critical than with the thf line -or the opposite, this is just an example from the top of my head - because one has higher dps potential than the other) or by experimenting enough with different variations on build/gear (for example, necromancy/conjuration archmage and pale master are -mostly- numerically equivalent on DCs, and the subtler differences on playing those would only be conveyable by one who played both sides).

Tearing apart this guide would be an exercise in patience and frustration, so I'll leave one remark. Some people advocate making full-****** DPS characters that need a nannybot, some advocate high levels of self-sufficiency. In both cases, the heal skill is useless. It's not useful even to write a metaphor with.

Symerith
08-15-2012, 04:27 AM
I swore I wouldn't post anything else on these forums but eh this is beyond my comprehension... So much misinformation there...

You spent a lot of time on this and obviously the "general" info is accurate, but there are so many things non casual players will disagree with. Had you named it "My opinion on DDO classes after 3 years of casual gameplay " I don't think you would have received so much criticism.

Also, there is just NO WAY you can make a guide for all classes when you only have a lvl 21 toon in 3 years.

Once you played all the classes (by my calculations in 2048), maybe you will come to see the flaws in your guide.

kauetomaz
08-15-2012, 07:25 AM
I swore I wouldn't post anything else on these forums but eh this is beyond my comprehension... So much misinformation there...

You spent a lot of time on this and obviously the "general" info is accurate, but there are so many things non casual players will disagree with. Had you named it "My opinion on DDO classes after 3 years of casual gameplay " I don't think you would have received so much criticism.

Also, there is just NO WAY you can make a guide for all classes when you only have a lvl 21 toon in 3 years.

Once you played all the classes (by my calculations in 2048), maybe you will come to see the flaws in your guide.

^ THIS is exactly my point.

by having GUIDE in ur title u (intentionally or not) mislead new players on believing that what you say is true and the best advice for them, which we can all agree it isnt, there are way too many mistakes on it that i sincerely would suggest saving ur work on a notepad file and just erasing the content of if ur first post altogether until u can come up with a non misleading guide.
i know ur intention was gd but im sorry to say that writing a guide with this sort of info is somewhat even cruel to a new player that might roll up a toon using the info u provided here


after u play for a while longer with all classes or do extended research on each and every class id also reccomend u have a look in here before writing ur guide again
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=84626

OzmarDDO
08-15-2012, 07:44 AM
^ THIS is exactly my point.

by having GUIDE in ur title u (intentionally or not) mislead new players on believing that what you say is true and the best advice for them, which we can all agree it isnt, there are way too many mistakes on it that i sincerely would suggest saving ur work on a notepad file and just erasing the content of if ur first post altogether until u can come up with a non misleading guide.
i know ur intention was gd but im sorry to say that writing a guide with this sort of info is somewhat even cruel to a new player that might roll up a toon using the info u provided here


after u play for a while longer with all classes or do extended research on each and every class id also reccomend u have a look in here before writing ur guide again
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=84626

Wow. That's harsh! I had no idea that "guide" was a sacred word with such canonical meaning that I had to meet stringent standards for accuracy and impartiality to use it correctly. I apologize for misleading, and can only plead my vast ignorance as an inadequate excuse. Perhaps I should have began my post with some kind of statement about how my advice represents my opinions which may be prone to error and reflect only my somewhat limited experience.

Still, I hope that my "guide", such as it is, can be helpful or at least interesting for some folks. I don't think it will lead them to a bad experience, as I have certainly enjoyed my time playing this awesome game, and my experience is reflected in the advice (opinionated and subjective) that I naively assumed might be helpful to others. Clearly, I have some extended research to do before I can be confident in any opinions in the future.

But "cruel"? I hope not! "Cruel" is playing a new character with those pre-made character paths that the game provides. I hope my advice isn't that bad! :eek:

-Ozmar the Humbled

kauetomaz
08-15-2012, 07:50 AM
Wow. That's harsh! I had no idea that "guide" was a sacred word with such canonical meaning that I had to meet stringent standards for accuracy and impartiality to use it correctly. I apologize for misleading, and can only plead my vast ignorance as an inadequate excuse. Perhaps I should have began my post with some kind of statement about how my advice represents my opinions which may be prone to error and reflect only my somewhat limited experience.

Still, I hope that my "guide", such as it is, can be helpful or at least interesting for some folks. I don't think it will lead them to a bad experience, as I have certainly enjoyed my time playing this awesome game, and my experience is reflected in the advice (opinionated and subjective) that I naively assumed might be helpful to others. Clearly, I have some extended research to do before I can be confident in any opinions in the future.

But "cruel"? I hope not! "Cruel" is playing a new character with those pre-made character paths that the game provides. I hope my advice isn't that bad! :eek:

-Ozmar the Humbled

im sry if it came out harsh man, its defs not what i had gone for.

the only reason i said it was somewhat cruel is misleading is coz when i first started playing i took advices similar to what is in ur post and put points in dex on a sorc and other things, which lead me to have a pretty harsh time tryin to stay alive or find a group that wouldnt laugh at my gimpness. I have since done a lot of research and try to read about the game for at least 6-10 hours a week and am on my 8th life, what im tryin to say is that im a very stubborn person if not for that i would have quit the game or assumed the game was badly designed since ive done all the things i was advised to do and still couldnt succeed properly, which might be the case for some ppl that read ur first post unfortunately

Jiirix
08-15-2012, 08:00 AM
If I remember it right my shroud guide still has "metalline of pure good" listed as a boss-beater. If someone reads a guide and takes nothing with a grain of salt he needs to read a guide about "should I beliefe everything in guides"-guide first ;)

Please keep your guid updated with the input you get. Have seen worse guides from Turbine... character paths anyone?

Jsbeer
08-15-2012, 08:02 AM
This seems a decent guide for fairly new players.

That having been said, I do think that the heal skill is pretty much worthless.

Also I am very fond of having a high balance skill on almost all classes as your contribution is zero if you are tripped. Also for many melees a small investment into Jump can be nice.

Ralmeth
08-15-2012, 11:09 AM
Hey Ozmar,

It's an interesting idea of a thread. I haven't read the whole thing, but as I've been playing and playtesting Paladins for over 6 years, I did read the section on Paladins...unfortunately there is quite a bit of misleading information in there. Making a Paladin that performs well at low levels all the way through high levels takes a proper balance and certain play style. For example, and this is not an exhaustive list:

Stats:
Your primary stats are Str, Con and Charisma...The suggestion to get your charisma as high as possible could make someone think they should max charisma (possibly putting level ups into Charisma). This is a mistake. As a Paladin is a melee class, Strength is the most important stat, while charisma and con are also important. As I mentioned, it takes a proper balance to get these right. As for the other stats Intelligence is important because most Paladin tanks will want to take Combat Expertise. Wisdom can start at a score of an 8 because you can qualify for spell casting with a wisdom item. Oh, one other thing. Because Paladin tanks are so stat intensive, I highly recommend that someone only plays a Paladin if they have access to 32 point characters. Some might think this is a tough requirement to play a "free" class, but if you don't get your stats balanced properly you can end up gimped in some area. Going way back to my PnP days of 1st and 2nd edition, Paladins had one of the most difficult to qualify for stat requirements so this isn't such an over the top idea.

Race:
Your guide implies you could be an elf or drow...For someone that knows what they are getting into, has a TR build, tomes, etc, sure no problem. However for anyone new to a Paladin I highly recommend going Human because of the need to balance your stats. The extra feat is also helpful because Paladins are so feat intensive.

Skills:
Intimidate is the only useful skill?? This is definitely not true. Paladin tanks should be maxing out intimidate, UMD and concentration. Granted UMD doesn't become important until later in levels, but it is very helpful when someone gets to high levels. Concentration you might ask? Yes, definitely and especially on someone newer to DDO. Concentration is critical on a Paladin tank because you may not have the dungeons memorized or know when they should cast their short term buffs. Someone new to a Paladin might want to cast Divine Favor on themselves in a fight and concentration will allow them to do so without getting knocked out of casting it. Someone may get swarmed by a bunch of fire mephits and need to cast resist fire on themselves or someone else in the party and concentration will help them to do so. Also balance is very helpful, probably one of the most helpful skills at lower levels, and I always recommend any melee to put some points into balance at the lower levels...It's never fun get tripped but a group of hobgoblins, or when you slip and fall over from one of the mechanized dogs in the Harbor, etc. could get the character killed.

There are other things to mention in terms of enhancements, play style, etc, but then I'd be writing an entire guide within your guide. So I just wanted to write this for the benefit of any would-be Paladins out there.

DynaTheCat
08-17-2012, 05:30 PM
Archmages are necromancers too. They get a few higher necro dc than pale mages.

Palemages are simply undead and do more neg dmg than archmages.

muharr
08-17-2012, 11:54 PM
I found the overall thread to be quite interesting, but in particular the comment about picking primary, secondary and tertiary focuses was really intelligent. I've been thinking about my first TR but getting lost in all the options. I can see that you could list the possible combinations of primary, secondary and tertiary focuses for a class as a guide to reasonable builds.

Meiron
08-18-2012, 01:53 AM
The problem with this guide is that each class is so complicated, with multiple builds, that it's essentially impossible to make a guide that's both informative and comprehensive. I suppose you can make a guide that generally tells people the difference between a Sorcerer and a Wizard, but not really a guide that compares all 4 Savant lines, multiple combinations of Archmage specialties, Pale Master, Defender of Siberys, Assassin, Arcane Archer, Frenzied Barbarian, Kensai, et. al.

Not to mention there are several pieces of what I consider extremely bad advice, like suggesting Augment Summon for a Pale Master. That's just a waste of a perfectly good feat slot. Pale Master summons are not worth the investment. I don't even know why you would ever want Augment Summon on a Cleric or FVS, or any character except maybe an Artificer or Druid. Summons in general tend to be very, very poor in DDO. This may not be apparent at very low levels, but it should be by the time you're in your teens.

I'd suggest offering some opinions on the classes you know well and leave the ones you don't know to others. New players do not need bad and confusing advice from someone who's quite new in the class too. It kind of defeats the point of this forum.

FestusHood
08-18-2012, 06:30 AM
I feel compelled to throw in my 2 cp worth here. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the op's suggestions some of the chiding that has taken place here is a bit off base.

I don't understand why so many posters needed to complain that by offering a guide the op is presenting his opinion as fact. Uh, no, writing a textbook implies that any information forwarded could be expected to be facts. Writing a guide of this type pretty much implies that everything contained will be opinion. I've read many, many guides on the forums since i started playing, and every single one of them is loaded with opinions. I find it especially ironic that most of the complaining posters have no problem then offering their own opinions in the guise of 'facts' by their own definiton.

After going back to reread the op's post again to check, i frankly don't see him advising anyone to put points in the heal skill. He does advise using the heal skill to attempt to save incapped characters in the ABSENCE of clickies and wands. In the specific situation cited i have to agree with him.

About his feeling that artificers are the best class. By definition the word best describes a value judgement, and no value judgement is ever a fact. If it is, there are eleventy million uses of the word best in lists on the internet, all of which are completely controvertible, so perhaps you should take it up with them as well.

About the barbarian taking toughness. I certainly did on my barb. As this is a guide for newer players it's sort of silly to use the example of an 800 hp endgame barbarian that obviously has a lot of gear to reach that number. I suspect that anyone who might actually be looking to guides for basic advice will want to know what will help them survive the first 20 levels. There also pretty much seems to exist a near consensus opinion that an elf or drow is a terrible choice for a barbarian. Why? because of the minus 2 con of course. This would lead to a whopping reduction of one hp per level! Yet 60-70hp isn't worth it? I'm not even all that new to the game and i certainly find this to be a confusing contradiction.

I want to end by saying that i disagree with some of the things the op has put forth, but then i disagree with some of the advice put forth by the following posts as well. I find it a bit funny when it's only brought up that "hey that's just your opinion" when someone disagrees with the opinion. It's true when you agree with the opinion as well. It's so obvious that it's just an opinion that it really doesn't need to be stated, which is why it almost never is.

FrozenNova
08-18-2012, 08:56 AM
There also pretty much seems to exist a near consensus opinion that an elf or drow is a terrible choice for a barbarian. Why? because of the minus 2 con of course. This would lead to a whopping reduction of one hp per level! Yet 60-70hp isn't worth it? I'm not even all that new to the game and i certainly find this to be a confusing contradiction.

The issue is that moreover, elf and drow bring nothing to the table for a barbarian, and as I said earlier, toughness contends with stunning blow and improved sunder. By no means is it a bad choice, it's just nowhere near as obligatory as the original guide described.
I mean, hell, in the guide that's a seven feat breakdown. A new player could quite feasibly take that list to describe the exact feats he should grab between 1 and 20.

I agree that nowhere in the OP was it actually suggested people spend points in Heal, so it was absent from my short list.
Was the original guide overopinionated? Probably, and it needed some corrections - but a resource like this can quite easily still be valuable to a new player since the actual differences in class playstyle are not well documented anywhere.

Fhauvial
08-18-2012, 09:10 AM
The artificer is hands down the best class in the game.


I haven't read the entire guide yet, and I will probably edit and add more as I do, but this particular line stuck out and really bothers me.

The reason: It's an opinion stated as a fact. I bet if you ask every single person on this forum what they thought the 'best class in the game was', you'd get 14 different answers. Which is an accomplishment, seeing as there are only 13 classes in the game.

No offense intended, but it made the journalist in me cringe.

stoerm
08-18-2012, 10:27 AM
My eyes get misty just thinking about the sheer power of my sorc. My artificer doesn't make my eyes misty.

As always, a guide is a good starting point. Getting all the information involves a lot of playing and reading. Build threads are good for learning about a class.

FestusHood
08-18-2012, 01:05 PM
I haven't read the entire guide yet, and I will probably edit and add more as I do, but this particular line stuck out and really bothers me.

The reason: It's an opinion stated as a fact. I bet if you ask every single person on this forum what they thought the 'best class in the game was', you'd get 14 different answers. Which is an accomplishment, seeing as there are only 13 classes in the game.

No offense intended, but it made the journalist in me cringe.

I don't mean to be combative here but since i can't think of a single example where the word best doesn't represent an opinion, i have to ask does it bother you much when you agree with the opinion? It's so completely common for people to substitute the word best for the more accurate 'my favorite' that it seems unfair to single this particular post out. When Rolling Stone creates one of it's endless 'best lists' they certainly seem to present them as though they are facts, at least in my experience.

If this statement really makes you cringe i would hate to see what kinds of violent convulsions you must endure watching the Academy Awards.

FestusHood
08-18-2012, 01:40 PM
The issue is that moreover, elf and drow bring nothing to the table for a barbarian, and as I said earlier, toughness contends with stunning blow and improved sunder. By no means is it a bad choice, it's just nowhere near as obligatory as the original guide described.
I mean, hell, in the guide that's a seven feat breakdown. A new player could quite feasibly take that list to describe the exact feats he should grab between 1 and 20.

I agree that nowhere in the OP was it actually suggested people spend points in Heal, so it was absent from my short list.
Was the original guide overopinionated? Probably, and it needed some corrections - but a resource like this can quite easily still be valuable to a new player since the actual differences in class playstyle are not well documented anywhere.

Do want to point out that i was in no way singling out any particular post, and specifically chose to mention things that appeared in multiple posts throughout the thread. I knew as soon as i read the original post that the lions den had been entered. The op seemed like an unassuming person who remained polite throughout his responses. At some point after the nth response complaining that build options he presents are sub optimal, it just starts to look a bit like bullying.

Haven't been much of a poster but i've been voraciously reading the ddo forums for 9 months and read many posts even dating back a few years. There is an amazing amount of bullying, cajoling,flaming,trolling, whatever you want to call it every time someone suggests an idea that falls outside of the accepted standard of what is 'best'. It's usually much worse than anything in this post, but that's usually because the original poster has the audacity to defend their opinion.

Given the many, many times i've wanted to post to defend one of these folks just so they wouldn't be alone you may wonder why i chose to actually do it here. The answer is simple: this was clearly, and without question, the BEST time to do it.

OzmarDDO
08-19-2012, 12:44 PM
The op seemed like an unassuming person who remained polite throughout his responses. At some point after the nth response complaining that build options he presents are sub optimal, it just starts to look a bit like bullying.

Haven't been much of a poster but i've been voraciously reading the ddo forums for 9 months and read many posts even dating back a few years. There is an amazing amount of bullying, cajoling,flaming,trolling, whatever you want to call it every time someone suggests an idea that falls outside of the accepted standard of what is 'best'. It's usually much worse than anything in this post, but that's usually because the original poster has the audacity to defend their opinion.

Given the many, many times i've wanted to post to defend one of these folks just so they wouldn't be alone you may wonder why i chose to actually do it here. The answer is simple: this was clearly, and without question, the BEST time to do it.

The "BEST" time? How opinionated! You, sir, state your mere opinions as though they were all-mighty facts! And that grates upon my journalistic soul. ;)

Srsly, though, thanks for the kind words, Festus. I do appreciate the feedback, even if some of it seems like bullying to some readers. The "accepted standards" of what is most optimal for various builds may not be clear to even long-time players, such as myself, so if this helps anyone learn and improve their game experience, then I am eager to contribute, even if my role is to be the target of enthusiastic correction. :)

I also appreciate the defense. A good forum argument is both entertaining and enlightening. Hopefully people can share some good ideas for character builds and enjoy the read.

-Ozmar the Grateful

Fhauvial
08-19-2012, 03:09 PM
I don't mean to be combative here but since i can't think of a single example where the word best doesn't represent an opinion, i have to ask does it bother you much when you agree with the opinion? It's so completely common for people to substitute the word best for the more accurate 'my favorite' that it seems unfair to single this particular post out. When Rolling Stone creates one of it's endless 'best lists' they certainly seem to present them as though they are facts, at least in my experience.

If this statement really makes you cringe i would hate to see what kinds of violent convulsions you must endure watching the Academy Awards.

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

Fhauvial
08-19-2012, 03:18 PM
The "BEST" time? How opinionated! You, sir, state your mere opinions as though they were all-mighty facts! And that grates upon my journalistic soul. ;)

Srsly, though, thanks for the kind words, Festus. I do appreciate the feedback, even if some of it seems like bullying to some readers. The "accepted standards" of what is most optimal for various builds may not be clear to even long-time players, such as myself, so if this helps anyone learn and improve their game experience, then I am eager to contribute, even if my role is to be the target of enthusiastic correction. :)

I also appreciate the defense. A good forum argument is both entertaining and enlightening. Hopefully people can share some good ideas for character builds and enjoy the read.

-Ozmar the Grateful

And you just lost any respect I may have had for you. Good look with the guide, but I won't be recommending it when the author takes so quickly to mockery when someone tries to provide constructive criticism.

Ryiah
08-19-2012, 04:55 PM
Wow. That's harsh! I had no idea that "guide" was a sacred word with such canonical meaning that I had to meet stringent standards for accuracy and impartiality to use it correctly.

I would suggest adding a bit more obvious of a disclaimer at the top of the guide. You've stated you only have a single character nearing end game and that can cause a lot of your advice to be skewed towards early game play. New players reading this guide might assume the info is correct for end game characters only to get burned when they realize it isn't.

I'd also recommend updating it. Just from skimming through it I don't see any changes to it. I certainly wouldn't want to be forced to read through an entire thread just to figure out the guide may not be accurate.

DarkForte
08-19-2012, 09:00 PM
I would suggest adding a bit more obvious of a disclaimer at the top of the guide. You've stated you only have a single character nearing end game and that can cause a lot of your advice to be skewed towards early game play. New players reading this guide might assume the info is correct for end game characters only to get burned when they realize it isn't.

To be fair, anything works for levels 1-10 in group play.

gryphonxxxii
08-19-2012, 10:44 PM
And you just lost any respect I may have had for you. Good look with the guide, but I won't be recommending it when the author takes so quickly to mockery when someone tries to provide constructive criticism.

Actually, he gains some respect from me for finally commenting on the harshness of replies here. So it balances out.

Fhauvial
08-19-2012, 11:54 PM
Actually, he gains some respect from me for finally commenting on the harshness of replies here. So it balances out.

Except I wasn't intending to be harsh, and yet my comment is the one that is targeted. And frankly, making a mockery of my comment because others in this thread are harsh is absurd, and inexcusable. I came here because I saw (yet another) class guide, and sought only to provide constructive criticism, and instead of taking my point at face value, I get attacked. Yeah, that's real cute.

Not intending to derail this thread, just calling it how I see it.

Edit: Now that I've had time to read more of the thread, I actually have to recant part of this post. It'd appear I'm not the only one who's made a very similar content, so if I mistook the OP's comment as being directed at me when it was not, I apologize.

HOWEVER, if so many voices are saying the same thing, doesn't that hint at something?



I haven't read the entire guide yet, and I will probably edit and add more as I do, but this particular line stuck out and really bothers me.

The reason: It's an opinion stated as a fact. I bet if you ask every single person on this forum what they thought the 'best class in the game was', you'd get 14 different answers. Which is an accomplishment, seeing as there are only 13 classes in the game.

No offense intended, but it made the journalist in me cringe.

Now, as to the reason I made this^ post in the first place: By presenting your opinion as fact, whether that's one's intention or not, you run the risk of seriously misleading your audience--which in this case is likely to be new, oft impressionable players who don't know enough about the game to tell 'good' advice from 'bad' advice.

I've seen too many guides fall face-first into that trap. It's almost always going to be better to present class features, gameplay tips and tricks, etc. objectively rather than inserting your opinion into the mess.

Now, if the OP had said something like this: "Artificer is the best class in the game. Druid is the best class in the game. Sorceror is the best class in the game. Rogue is the best class in the game. Fighter is the best class in the game, etc." that'd be an entirely different story. ;)

(Props to anyone who gets the reference :P)

danielhrobbins
08-20-2012, 12:32 AM
Ozmar's Class Guide

Rogue:

This is the only class that can do traps. They are essential. Well, artificers can do traps also, but artificers do not get evasion. A multiclassed artificer (with rogue or monk) can be just as good as a rogue for traps, but otherwise, only a rogue can survive high level traps and disable them. Oh, and by the way, if you are a rouge, make sure you can do traps. Again, you can spec for an assassin or an acrobat, and that's great, but you can also do traps. Don't be a rogue who can't do traps. That's lame.
You can sneak up on a group of foes, and use bluff at a range on one to call him away towards you, then sneak attack him. This can be a good strategy to slowly take down mobs without having to fight them all at once.
Undead are your nemesis: they can't be sneak attacked! You will almost always want to quest with a group, so they can grab aggro while you sneak around and stab people in the kidneys. Ranged attacks can be useful, but let your allies grab aggro first.

Stats: Int/Dex - don't skimp on these. Cha is good for UMD & Bluff. You want Con. Wis & Str are less important, esp. if you take Weapon Finesse.
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Search), PBS if you use ranged a lot.
Spells: n/a
Skills: there is no reason you can't max out: Search, Disable, Open Locks, UMD, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, & Bluff. Other skills are useful as well, but these should always be maxed.
Enhancements: Skill Boost, and boost your Search & Disable. Boost other skills to taste, and take a prestige enhancement.
Gear: Light armor, light weapons, a ranged weapon. You will want to sneak around, avoid aggro, and sneak attack whenever possible. Get skill boosting items as high as you can, especially on Search and Disable. If you can't find the trap, you can't disable it. And carry thieve's tools. They are needed. If you have multiple sets, put the best set first in your pack (upper-left corner on first bag), and they'll be used first.



Just some notes on the Rogue section:

1) A radiance weapon is an essential for a real rogue .. err, I mean for a non-ranged rogue.

2) Yes, max out trap skills, but endgame there is no reason to have a toon "built" for traps. It takes effort to NOT be able to do traps at high levels, if you are rogue. That being said, hitting lower level traps can be EXTREMELY more difficult than higher level ones, simply due to gear restrictions, toon progression, etc. So, depending on your build and gear, it may seem like you are just barely at the threshold for getting traps at level (or even not quite there) when you are at lower levels (maybe, say, up to level 12? .. not certain) ... but don't let it distract you from your overall, endgame build. High level/epic level traps are really easy, so just try to keep your gear as maxxed as possible as you level up ...

3) NO! do not put ability points into CHA. At least not before Con, Str, Int, or Dex. Yes, keep your toon with as high a level CHA item as you can, and eat that +2/+3 tome ASAP, and keep your UMD maxxed ... but there shouldn't be any need to put points into CHA.

4) NO! Do not, for the love of God, take "skill focus search." IF you have to take a skill focus - which is questionable, and dependent on your gear - take UMD. Or consider toughness, again. Putting it in search is an absolute waste though.

5) Just as an overall note, this seems to characterize rogues in a way I really don't like and strongly disagree with: a class who gets somewhat-helpful damage sneak attacking, just something to bide the time in between traps, as traps are the class' main focus. Wrong. Rogue levels are for traps. Rogues are for killing. A well built/played rogue (granted, these are scarce) can equal, if not surpass, the damage of most other melees, be self sufficient (tossing Heal scrolls and resurrection scrolls with 100%+ chance), outkill other party members with ease, and can pretty much do anything else. Traps are one of those things. If you can get a good rogue to stop killing stuff, usually they will disable them for you.

Also, though it seems all shiny and tempting to make a drow rogue once you get drow unlocked, don't do it. Really. I can't stress this enough. Any benefits (which are fairly insignificant) are far out-valued by having more points to put into CON.

UltraMonk2
08-20-2012, 01:47 AM
Just would like to make some comments about the Fighter section of your guide, I have a Dwarven Defender (Level 22 currently) with over 1000 HP's. He wears a Greater Regeneration item (2HP/15 Seconds) that is a Green Steel item. He has 20% Permanent Blur, 10% Dodge, an AC of around 100 and I forget what his PRR is.

With the advent of Epic Destinies he has taken the Grandmaster of Flowers path and from it he gets resistance to 4 energy types up to 12 points in each, and he has the ability to cast a self heal about once every 5 minutes that does around 250 HP's.

He is built to survive and quite comfortably solo quests like Prey on the Hunter Casual (at Level 20) without using the shrine, a Hireling or sucking down pots. He can wander around The Underdark and Sschindriylan.

And from the lessons I learned from building him I am working on a new toon that has a past life in Fighter and a past life in Barbarian. He is putting points into UMD so at present he can use the Wand of Cure Minor Wounds from the Catacombs, it has 50 Charges and it recharges. Both my Dwarven Defenders have Raise Dead clickies.

So Fighters can do things to reduce the damage they take, to reduce the amount of hits on them, to self heal via various methods and when all the rest of the party is dead still keep going and taking out the rest of the mobs. Then they can raise a healer.

The moral of this post is don't sell any class short, they can achieve a lot more than people think. My rogue even carries a stack of Heal scrolls, Reconstruct scrolls and Raise Dead scrolls. :-)

OzmarDDO
08-20-2012, 10:15 AM
There seems to be a lot of consternation (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+consternation&sugexp=chrome,mod=12&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)about the difference between "facts" and "opinions". Perhaps this will help illustrate the difference:

First, some definitions:

Guide (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+guide&sugexp=chrome,mod=12&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8): A person who advises or shows the way to others.

Advice (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+advice&sugexp=chrome,mod=12&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8): Guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable or authoritative.

Fact (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+fact&sugexp=chrome,mod=12&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8): A thing that is indisputably the case.

Opinion (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+opinion&sugexp=chrome,mod=12&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8): A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.


And some examples:


Fact: Toughness is a feat that will give you +3 HPs and +1 HP per level.

Opinion: Toughness is not a bad feat for any character.

Fact: If you have the toughness feat, you can take toughness enhancements for your race/class. Each enhancement will give you +10 HPs.

Opinion supported by fact: The toughness feat is a good choice because you can further improve your hit points by taking the enhancements.

Fact: You can take the toughness feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Fact: I took toughness four times on my monk by accident, because I kept forgetting that I already had it. When you select a new feat, the toughness feat will be displayed as an option regardless of whether you already have the feat.

Advice: Make sure you check your character tab to see if you have toughness before taking it again.


Looking over my original post, I see that everyone is quite correct when they point out that it is, in fact, quite full of opinion. I believe that I characterized it correctly in the introduction when I said that this "guide" is my advice, and my opinion. I would hope that most people would be able to understand this and not read it as an attempt to provide unassailable facts about the DDO experience.

While I appreciate all of the feedback, I really think the more substantive and helpful responses are those which focus on whether my advice is sound or not, and give contrary opinions about useful character build choices, whether supported by fact or experience. I don't think a digression into the merits of opinion vs. fact are particularly useful. I think the latest two responses from danielhrobbins (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4651783&postcount=53)and UltraMonk2 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4651813&postcount=54)are great examples of substantive feedback, and there have been others as well. Thank you very much for that!


On a personal note, I must apologize to Fhauvial for my "mockery (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4651427&postcount=48)". It was not intended to offend nor directed personally. I was merely trying to keep things light-hearted. I really don't think we need to take ourselves quite so seriously on this forum. After all, it's just some friendly advice on playing a fun game, not a scholarly article on peer-reviewed methods of class optimization. Hopefully I didn't cause you to lose any sleep over this. :)

"Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you. (http://niv.scripturetext.com/proverbs/9.htm)"

-Ozmar the Quotable

OzmarDDO
08-20-2012, 10:21 AM
Also, Ryiah recommended that I update the OP based on feedback received. Really? Is that the appropriate protocol? I never intended to present this as an authoritative source as if it could trump all other "guides" out there. Just a collection of advice and opinions from a casual fellow player. If I could, I would modify the title to remove the offending term "Guide", as that seems to carry an unintended connotation. I suppose I could have a go at updating this guide. I would certainly modify some of my advice to take advantage of some of the responses, and perhaps to clarify the OPs intended purpose, but I don't care to be bogged down in defensive language merely to insulate myself from further flames, and I am afraid that I might have a tendency to head in that direction.

-Ozmar the Indecisive :confused:

grgurius
08-20-2012, 10:40 AM
There seems to be a lot of consternation (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+consternation&sugexp=chrome,mod=12&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)about the difference between "facts" and "opinions". Perhaps this will help illustrate the difference:

First, some definitions:

Guide (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+guide&sugexp=chrome,mod=12&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8): A person who advises or shows the way to others.

Advice (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+advice&sugexp=chrome,mod=12&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8): Guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable or authoritative.

Fact (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+fact&sugexp=chrome,mod=12&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8): A thing that is indisputably the case.

Opinion (https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+opinion&sugexp=chrome,mod=12&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8): A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.



My opinion is, that due to the lack of experience with classes past "early teen" levels your guide is full of errors and as such guiding new players into wrong direction. Further, my opinion is that, despite your self admitted inexperience with the classes, you were to dismissive towards people offering you good advices.

kierg10
08-20-2012, 11:45 AM
I'll be blunt (sorry ozmar):

this is a terrible guide.

now, I won't get in on the fact vs opinion argument, but a lot of the info presented in that guide is false (ex: no arcane should ever dump con, and SF:search/augment summoning (on anything but a druid/artie) is a horribad feat), also based on in game experience people believe that PMs are the best class (note: this is just my personal observation, and may or may not be fact) and IMO for new players who dont want to heal others, this would be one of the best classes. not many people play arties......although they are fun to play. remember most of this is just opinion.

in my experience ozmar I try to only give advice on classes I know, or for things that i believe are correct (such as extend on a bard, yay hage), so don't feel too bad......

P.S. don't include me in your opinion vs fact argument, what I jus stated was based on personal experience/opinion so feel free to ignore it entirely.

Ryiah
08-20-2012, 01:30 PM
Also, Ryiah recommended that I update the OP based on feedback received. Really? Is that the appropriate protocol? I never intended to present this as an authoritative source as if it could trump all other "guides" out there. Just a collection of advice and opinions from a casual fellow player. If I could, I would modify the title to remove the offending term "Guide", as that seems to carry an unintended connotation.

Then I would recommend contacting a moderator and requesting they rename the thread. Out of all the guides I've seen, the vast majority have had opinions. That same majority though have also gone back and updated their guides to reflect new information when an obvious error was pointed out.

As an older player who has had end game experience with most of the classes, I cannot recommend your guide to new players. Your "Guide" reflects knowledge that is clearly lacking at end game yet you make no attempt to correct any mistakes to your facts that have been stated by others. Note that I said corrections to your facts and not to your opinions. Your opinions are your own but they should be more obviously pointed out as opinions and not facts.

If you can't be bothered to keep a guide up-to-date, you should not label it as a guide. Label it as your personal experience or opinions.

OzmarDDO
08-20-2012, 03:13 PM
Then I would recommend contacting a moderator and requesting they rename the thread. Out of all the guides I've seen, the vast majority have had opinions. That same majority though have also gone back and updated their guides to reflect new information when an obvious error was pointed out.

As an older player who has had end game experience with most of the classes, I cannot recommend your guide to new players. Your "Guide" reflects knowledge that is clearly lacking at end game yet you make no attempt to correct any mistakes to your facts that have been stated by others. Note that I said corrections to your facts and not to your opinions. Your opinions are your own but they should be more obviously pointed out as opinions and not facts.

If you can't be bothered to keep a guide up-to-date, you should not label it as a guide. Label it as your personal experience or opinions.

Well, I guess if that's what I have to do, then I'd better do it.

Anyone know how to contact a moderator? I'll just ask him to change the thread title to not include the word "Guide".

-Ozmar the Chagrined :(