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View Full Version : Change Flameblade -> Elemental Blade



Failedlegend
07-31-2012, 08:33 PM
Right now whilst flame blade is a cool ability, making a character around it is pointless since any fire immune, resitant or absorbing enemies would instantly render you useless or even detirmental.


Description:
Summons a scimitar of fire that does fire damage instead of slashing damage, and uses the wielder's Wisdom instead of Strength for determining attack and damage bonuses. The user can chose to summon a single scimitar or two for dual wielding. The swords are automatically equipped when created. At caster level 1, it has a +1 enhancement bonus and the flaming effect. Every five caster levels the summoned swords improve. Because they are an extension of the caster's will, monks may use these weapons without becoming uncentered. The flame blade is not a physical weapon, but rather pure flame shaped by the caster's will; because of this, it is snuffed out if unequipped.

Flame Blade enchantments by caster level:

◦+1 Flaming (caster level 1)
◦+2 Flaming Burst (caster level 5)
◦+3 Flaming Burst Flaming Blast (caster level 10)
◦+4 Flaming Burst Flaming Blast Blinding Embers (caster level 15)
◦+5 Flaming Burst Flaming Blast Blinding Embers Incineration (caster level 20)
I see no reason why this spell can't be changed to Elemental Blade which when cast allows you too choose Eath, Wind, Water or Fire (In dmg terms = Acid, Lightning, Ice, Fire)



This would make it an actual useful ability. thoughts?

dozkal-mo
07-31-2012, 09:02 PM
Sounds pretty good to me.

valarx
08-01-2012, 01:51 AM
/not signed

This is why Flame Blade is the way it is:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameBlade.htm
There's not even a hint of multiple elements in there.

If you are building your character entirely around a 2nd level spell, you're missing out on much more of what the Druid class has to offer. Up against fire resistant creatures? Most of the time they are of the Fire type. Try Quench. It is a point blank spell that will work well with melee based Druids.

If that doesn't work, try Lighting Strike or Creeping Cold. The Druid is pretty versatile with elemental types as it is without changing Flame Blade.

If you are dead set on multiple elements on a weapon, Artificier offers a viable option.

Rian
08-01-2012, 02:21 AM
/not signed

This is why Flame Blade is the way it is:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameBlade.htm
There's not even a hint of multiple elements in there.


For your information, resist energy wasn't always in the game, it was changed to benefit the players (Crazy right?) so that we wouldn't have to use multiple spell slots for resists needed in quests. By that description, it shouldn't be giving the crazy properties it gives now for every 5 levels. Just because a website says that's what the spell means and does, doesn't mean it dictates what the spell in DDO is.

I wouldn't mind it if they added in Energy Blade giving the option for ice or fire atm, considering all we have is water and fire elementals. If they do add in other elemental forms then they may as well add blades for those forms as well.

Also, it would be nice if they could add a caster level 25 version of Flameblade, maybe replace incineration with greater incineration? or throw fiery detonation in there? I'd even be fine with another +1[W]

If they added Air elemental and Earth Elemental forms (along with more acid and lightning spells) and caster levl 25 versions which they probably won't, then:
Storm
+1 Shock ( CL 1)
+2 Shocking Burst (CL 5)
+3 Shocking Burst, Shocking Blast (CL 10)
+4 Shocking Burst, Shocking Blast, screaming (CL 15)
+5 Shocking Burst, Shocking Blast, lesser lightning strike (CL 20)
+6 Shocking Burst, Shocking Blast, Lesser Lightning Strike, Electric storm (CL 25)

Earth Blade
+1 acid (CL 1)
+2 acid burst (CL5)
+3 acid burst, acid blast (CL 10)
+4 acid burst, acid blast, stone prison (CL 15)
+5 acid burst, acid blast, greater stone prison (CL 20)
+6 acid burst, acid blast, greater stone prison, acid torrent (CL 25)

Ice could look like
◦+1 Frost (caster level 1)
◦+2 Icy Burst (caster level 5)
◦+3 Icy Burst, Icy Blast Blast (caster level 10)
◦+4 Icy Burst, Icy Blast, Tidal (caster level 15)
◦+5 Icy Burst, Icy Blast, Greater Tidal, Freezing Ice or Crushing Wave (caster level 20)
+6 Icy Burst, Icy Blast, Greater Tidal, Freezing Ice or Crushing Wave, Freezing Gale (caster level 25)

Would it be cool? In my opinion, yes.
Will it happen? More than likely, no.

Luis_Velderve
08-01-2012, 10:41 AM
/Signed

There is logic in the claim,include PL blade too.

Siro
08-01-2012, 11:19 AM
For your information, resist energy wasn't always in the game, it was changed to benefit the players (Crazy right?) so that we wouldn't have to use multiple spell slots for resists needed in quests. By that description, it shouldn't be giving the crazy properties it gives now for every 5 levels. Just because a website says that's what the spell means and does, doesn't mean it dictates what the spell in DDO is.

Just a slight correction here. Resist Energy has always been in DDO and was also part of D&D 3rd edition upon which DDO was originally based. That being said, the spell Flame Blade, as far as I know, is based around the Efreet's Flame Blade dating back to AD&D which is in turn based upon both the Arabian Scimitar and 1001 nights. Which is probably why it is the way it is.

Thankfully, 3rd addition introduced Energy Substitution as a metamagic feat, which would allow someone to cast flame blade as a different element. Also, pencil and paper is a bit more toned down, which is why that version of the spell doesn't obtain those crazy properties. However, the DDO implementation does lose a particularly valuable property of the spell, it basically had the DDO equivalent of 100% armor penetration.

Therefore, I like and approve of the OP's suggestion.


I wouldn't mind it if they added in Energy Blade giving the option for ice or fire atm, considering all we have is water and fire elementals. If they do add in other elemental forms then they may as well add blades for those forms as well.

Also, it would be nice if they could add a caster level 25 version of Flameblade, maybe replace incineration with greater incineration? or throw fiery detonation in there? I'd even be fine with another +1[W]

If they added Air elemental and Earth Elemental forms (along with more acid and lightning spells) and caster levl 25 versions which they probably won't, then:
Storm
+1 Shock ( CL 1)
+2 Shocking Burst (CL 5)
+3 Shocking Burst, Shocking Blast (CL 10)
+4 Shocking Burst, Shocking Blast, screaming (CL 15)
+5 Shocking Burst, Shocking Blast, lesser lightning strike (CL 20)
+6 Shocking Burst, Shocking Blast, Lesser Lightning Strike, Electric storm (CL 25)

Earth Blade
+1 acid (CL 1)
+2 acid burst (CL5)
+3 acid burst, acid blast (CL 10)
+4 acid burst, acid blast, stone prison (CL 15)
+5 acid burst, acid blast, greater stone prison (CL 20)
+6 acid burst, acid blast, greater stone prison, acid torrent (CL 25)

Ice could look like
◦+1 Frost (caster level 1)
◦+2 Icy Burst (caster level 5)
◦+3 Icy Burst, Icy Blast Blast (caster level 10)
◦+4 Icy Burst, Icy Blast, Tidal (caster level 15)
◦+5 Icy Burst, Icy Blast, Greater Tidal, Freezing Ice or Crushing Wave (caster level 20)
+6 Icy Burst, Icy Blast, Greater Tidal, Freezing Ice or Crushing Wave, Freezing Gale (caster level 25)

Would it be cool? In my opinion, yes.
Will it happen? More than likely, no.

And this seems a reasonable implementation of the suggestion as well. Although I'd tweak it a bit like so:
Elemental Blade
+1 Element ( CL 1)
+2 Element Burst (CL 5)
+3 Element Burst, Element Blast (CL 10)
+4 Element Burst, Element Blast, Property1 (CL 15)
+5 Element Burst, Element Blast, Property1, Property2 (CL 20)
+6 Element Burst, Element Blast, Property1, Property2, Property3 (CL 25)

Element: Shock, Acid, Flaming, Frost
Element Burst: Shocking Burst, Acid Burst, Flaming Burst, Icy Burst
Element Blast: Shocking Blast, Acid Blast, Flaming Blast, Icy Blast
Property1: Screaming, Acid Arrow (melee version), Incandescence, Tidal
Property2: Electric Storm, Acid Torrent, Fiery Detonation, Freezing Gale
Property3: Cloudburst, Disintegration, Greater Incineration, Corrosive Salt

Rian
08-01-2012, 03:02 PM
Just a slight correction here. Resist Energy has always been in DDO and was also part of D&D 3rd edition upon which DDO was originally based. That being said, the spell Flame Blade, as far as I know, is based around the Efreet's Flame Blade dating back to AD&D which is in turn based upon both the Arabian Scimitar and 1001 nights. Which is probably why it is the way it is.

Thankfully, 3rd addition introduced Energy Substitution as a metamagic feat, which would allow someone to cast flame blade as a different element. Also, pencil and paper is a bit more toned down, which is why that version of the spell doesn't obtain those crazy properties. However, the DDO implementation does lose a particularly valuable property of the spell, it basically had the DDO equivalent of 100% armor penetration.

Therefore, I like and approve of the OP's suggestion.



And this seems a reasonable implementation of the suggestion as well. Although I'd tweak it a bit like so:
Elemental Blade
+1 Element ( CL 1)
+2 Element Burst (CL 5)
+3 Element Burst, Element Blast (CL 10)
+4 Element Burst, Element Blast, Property1 (CL 15)
+5 Element Burst, Element Blast, Property1, Property2 (CL 20)
+6 Element Burst, Element Blast, Property1, Property2, Property3 (CL 25)

Element: Shock, Acid, Flaming, Frost
Element Burst: Shocking Burst, Acid Burst, Flaming Burst, Icy Burst
Element Blast: Shocking Blast, Acid Blast, Flaming Blast, Icy Blast
Property1: Screaming, Acid Arrow (melee version), Incandescence, Tidal
Property2: Electric Storm, Acid Torrent, Fiery Detonation, Freezing Gale
Property3: Cloudburst, Disintegration, Greater Incineration, Corrosive Salt

I'm going to have to disagree with you on how resist energy has always been in DDO, the resist spells have always been in the game, but Resist: Fire, and Resist: Cold were seperate, so to memorize the two would require two spell slots.

Anyways, I'm not familiar with PnP rules so the fact that Energy Substutition would actually allow such a suggestion be possible makes it that much better.

The way you have Energy Blade set up is a slight nerf at CL 20, but a buff in the long run if people can get it to caster level 25.

Jay203
08-01-2012, 03:30 PM
Right now whilst flame blade is a cool ability, making a character around it is pointless since any fire immune, resitant or absorbing enemies would instantly render you useless or even detirmental.


I see no reason why this spell can't be changed to Elemental Blade which when cast allows you too choose Eath, Wind, Water or Fire (In dmg terms = Acid, Lightning, Ice, Fire)



This would make it an actual useful ability. thoughts?

atm it seems fine as it is
i seriously can't take someone seriously if they built a character that can only function with the use of Flame Blade, and becomes useless the moment they can't use it...

that's literally like building a sorc with no offensive spells other than Niac's...
or a wizard with no other spell aside from Charm monster

while i'm not against changing the spell to allow other element, i do have to say the benefits it gains with CL needs to be toned down by A LOT if other elements are accessible

Memnir
08-01-2012, 03:36 PM
Personally, I'd be happy with a 1AP-each line that would allow us to modify the element of Flame Blade. Add something similar to Artificers to modify their Flame Turrets, as well.


If not an enhancement line , then perhaps allowing Season's Herald to have an added ability to have a Flame Blade when casting the spell in Summer - and a Chill Blade when cast in Winter. The blade should not change when the seasons swap, preferably. IMHO, this would be keeping in the flavor of the PrE.

dterror
08-01-2012, 04:18 PM
while i'm not against changing the spell to allow other element, i do have to say the benefits it gains with CL needs to be toned down by A LOT if other elements are accessible

The benefits it gains are several character levels AFTER anyone else could get the exact same benefits from other gear on any other character, so WHY wold the benefits need to be toned down?

Jay203
08-01-2012, 04:27 PM
The benefits it gains are several character levels AFTER anyone else could get the exact same benefits from other gear on any other character, so WHY wold the benefits need to be toned down?

oh really? tell me how one could get a weapon that does pure element damage (thus bypassing all physical DR) that scales in potency as the Caster Level increases?

if all it gets from getting higher level is the enhancement bonus upgrade, the burst, and the blast, then i'm all for changing to Element Blade instead of Flame Blade

Talias006
08-01-2012, 04:32 PM
I was under the impression that Flame Blade didn't break either metalline or alignment DR.
What physical DR are you talking about?

Jay203
08-01-2012, 04:34 PM
I was under the impression that Flame Blade didn't break either metalline or alignment DR.
What physical DR are you talking about?

it just does fire damage, no physical damage to speak of
metalline/aligned is not needed for it
only thing you have to watch for are energy resistances

Tshober
08-01-2012, 04:53 PM
it just does fire damage, no physical damage to speak of
metalline/aligned is not needed for it
only thing you have to watch for are energy resistances

My druid's flameblade fire damage is blocked by physical DR all the time. It's obvious with just a cursory look at the combat log. Not sure why you are thinking it is not.

Joseph
08-01-2012, 05:10 PM
/signed

Artificers, Druids, and Monks are pay to play classes.

Artificers

Can imbue any weapon with any type of elemental damage.

Druids

Can only create a single elemental 'weapon' effect, despite being the 'masters' of elemental magic.

Monks

Can make an attack from any elemental type, with a 'finishing' attack doing even greater elemental damage.


Druid is lacking when compared to the other classes, and really should have the ability to choose different elemental weapons.

Siro
08-01-2012, 05:21 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you on how resist energy has always been in DDO, the resist spells have always been in the game, but Resist: Fire, and Resist: Cold were seperate, so to memorize the two would require two spell slots.

As far as I can recall, they weren't separate for sorcs(they always had resist energy). And fixing that goes all the way back to module 3, the demon sands (first level cap raise to level 12). I was kinda surprised that you are even aware of this change given your forum account is around 3 years after module 3. I'm pretty sure I still have a greater acid resistance cloak that's ml 9 dating back from then. :D


Anyways, I'm not familiar with PnP rules so the fact that Energy Substutition would actually allow such a suggestion be possible makes it that much better.

PnP has tons of metamagic feats that never made it into DDO. If one has Energy Substitution, one can also pick up Energy Admixture, which allows adding an additional damage type to a spell (effectively doubling the damage of the spell). It made the spell 4 levels higher, which is the same as Quicken to give you an idea of what the spell point cost would be like.


The way you have Energy Blade set up is a slight nerf at CL 20, but a buff in the long run if people can get it to caster level 25.

I was basically going for symmetry and simplicity. The first tier adds damage, the second adds critical damage, the third adds damage, the fourth adds vorpal area damage, the fifth adds special effects. I took guidance from the Cannith elemental weapons while focusing less on impairment favoring elemental damage instead. One could swap the last two tiers, but then one may generally feel very 'meh' about the last tier. Frankly I just couldn't come up with another incrementally good tier.

It is unfortunately very hard to balance a spell like this given that one must take into consideration how it'll compare to existing spell weapons (holy sword) and all other weapons. Push too much one way and inevitably melees scream nerf.

Jay203
08-01-2012, 05:21 PM
My druid's flameblade fire damage is blocked by physical DR all the time. It's obvious with just a cursory look at the combat log. Not sure why you are thinking it is not.

bug report it :p
unless the devs wants to argue that it's WAI and change the spell description xD

Rian
08-01-2012, 05:38 PM
As far as I can recall, they weren't separate for sorcs(they always had resist energy). And fixing that goes all the way back to module 3, the demon sands (first level cap raise to level 12). I was kinda surprised that you are even aware of this change given your forum account is around 3 years after module 3. I'm pretty sure I still have a greater acid resistance cloak that's ml 9 dating back from then. :D

I've been playing since 2006, it's just that my dad didn't want a 12 year old running amuck on the forums.
Now that I have 2 and a half brain cells he figured I should be allowed to cause all the chaos on the forums I want, within reason.



It is unfortunately very hard to balance a spell like this given that one must take into consideration how it'll compare to existing spell weapons (holy sword) and all other weapons. Push too much one way and inevitably melees scream nerf.
With people saying they suck as they are, I don't see why they would. :p

Talias006
08-02-2012, 01:24 AM
bug report it :p
unless the devs wants to argue that it's WAI and change the spell description xD

From what I recall in beta on them it was changed from slashing base to energy base.

It no longer counts as slash, so does not count when using using against enemies with DR (X)/Slashing.

Damage vs Zombies should have the first portion in yellow to note this reduction.