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~UltimateSuperman
07-31-2012, 11:07 AM
From reading the forums I see that most of us agree Dragonmarks need a little work. One thing that may make them more appealing to the masses (especially those who play feat-starved classes) is possibly removing them from being a chosen feat and instead make them a reward, possibly tied to the new monster compendium.

I wouldn't make the Dragonmarks too easy to attain and below is a suggestion, of course you should adjust the numbers accordingly:

Least Dragonmark: Slay 100 Dragons
Lesser Dragonmark: Slay 250 Dragons
Greater Dragonmark: Slay 500 Dragons

I am not completely sure how the Monster Compendium will work as far a keeping count of monster kills through TRs and such, but you get the general idea. Feel free to provide constructive criticism.

madmaxhunter
07-31-2012, 11:10 AM
Devs have stated the manual will reset after TR. I think your numbers are way too high. Don't know who would farm 500 dragons just to be able to teleport. I agree that dragonmarks are a quick way to spot a newb (in most cases).

Thrudh
07-31-2012, 11:13 AM
Dragonmarks need a lot of work, but your suggestion means dragonmarks will not be available until far into end-game.

My healing dragonmarks are very useful from levels 1-20. I don't see this a perk to not be able to get them until level 25 after maxing out most EDs (many of which replicate dragonmark abilities anyway).

Dragonmarks should be one feat. Action Points to boost them. More items that boost them too... I think the Chimera Fang and Crown are neat additions to the game.

I do like your basic idea though of using tracked Dragon kills in the Monster Manual. Maybe they should give bonuses to dragonmarks or extra uses, but not be the only way to get the feats.

cdbd3rd
07-31-2012, 11:14 AM
... I agree that dragonmarks are a quick way to spot a newb (in most cases).

or a non-min/maxing altoholic?


Like the idea of them not being a Feat.
Disagree with making them dragon-kill based.


Kobolds are dragon-kin. Make it based on Kobold kills. :p

madmaxhunter
07-31-2012, 11:18 AM
or a non-min/maxing altoholic?


Like the idea of them not being a Feat.
Disagree with making them dragon-kill based.


Kobolds are dragon-kin. Make it based on Kobold kills. :p

Great, get ready for KA lag-outs!

Sure some classes/races have enough spare feat spots to support marks. I'll change it to (in some cases).

~UltimateSuperman
07-31-2012, 11:21 AM
Great feedback everyone. The main gist is to make Dragonmarks viable and reduce them to one feat as suggested or to reward status. I knew my original idea was somewhat limited and off-the-cuff, but hopefully a dev will come in here and see the conglomeration of ideas and pick and choose the ideas which make Dragonmarks more popular and useful. Thanks again for the feedback.

dng242
07-31-2012, 11:28 AM
...
Dragonmarks should be one feat. Action Points to boost them. More items that boost them too... I think the Chimera Fang and Crown are neat additions to the game.

...

Dragonmarks do need a lot of help. The above is a good start.

varusso
07-31-2012, 11:31 AM
From reading the forums I see that most of us agree Dragonmarks need a little work. One thing that may make them more appealing to the masses (especially those who play feat-starved classes) is possibly removing them from being a chosen feat and instead make them a reward, possibly tied to the new monster compendium.

I wouldn't make the Dragonmarks too easy to attain and below is a suggestion, of course you should adjust the numbers accordingly:

Least Dragonmark: Slay 100 Dragons
Lesser Dragonmark: Slay 250 Dragons
Greater Dragonmark: Slay 500 Dragons

I am not completely sure how the Monster Compendium will work as far a keeping count of monster kills through TRs and such, but you get the general idea. Feel free to provide constructive criticism.

The real problem is that -- as i understand it -- the Monster Manual will be a P2P improvement (unless they changed it). For folks who already have DMs (or plan to add them) on their toons, this is a no-go.

However, you could instead have the MM unlock additional feat slots that can ONLY be used for certain feats, such as DMs and maybe even Active PLs, including Completionist (throws a bone to the folks who have been begging for this forever). That way players could still invest in them the normal way if they want to, or they could buy the MM and be able to free up some feat slots, or get feats they normally have to pass up. You would have to re-earn them each life, but thats part of the cost in getting the "free" feats.

Now, the thresholds for the kills would need to be tweaked and balanced, of course, but getting stuck on the numbers is really a silly thing. Its the base idea that counts.

visibleman
07-31-2012, 11:42 AM
I am not sure that Dragonmarks need changing as such - they are a core part of Eberron.

But they do need support to make them more worthwhile:

The PnP RPG has several Prestige classes that are only available to DragonMarked characters. While it would be a huge task to implement Prestige Enhancement lines for each DragonMark, it would be feasible to create one Enhancement line that benefits/enhances every DragonMark. Eg, Retain 'DragonMark' as a Feat but make progression to Lesser and Greater part of the Enhancements rather than additional Feats.

The other thing that the PnP RPG has is magic items that only work for or provide extra benefits to users with DragonMarks.

Also, there are spells developed by the DragonMark Houses that only work for DragonMark users.

Fefnir_2011
07-31-2012, 11:50 AM
The devs already stated they were looking at reducing Dragonmarks to a single feat with the upgrades being bough enhancements. I imagine that change alone would help with picking up the dragonmark abilities.

valarx
07-31-2012, 02:58 PM
The devs already stated they were looking at reducing Dragonmarks to a single feat with the upgrades being bough enhancements. I imagine that change alone would help with picking up the dragonmark abilities.

They have also stated the Dragonmarks being prereqs for additional benefits (i.e. Jorasco Jadehand). So we may see some extra enhancements becoming available for those who have Dragonmarks.

I'd be quite happy with the change to make Dragonmarks a single feat that you then use APs to get the other levels of. That makes them much more viable for many builds.

It would also be nice to see vendors specific to Dragonmarks. Having Dragonmarks was a perk in Eberron that often gave you access to House resources that other characters couldn't obtain. So I think having vendors that sell special consumables specific to their House would be appropraite (of course, anything bought would need to be BtC).

Bernaise
07-31-2012, 03:56 PM
It would be great to see Dragonmark PRE's. I recall reading somewhere on a Dev post awhile back that they eventually wanted to add more Prestige classes like Arcane Archer which has flexibility by not necessarily being tied into a specific class. Dragonmarked Prestige classes would be excellent for this.

varusso
07-31-2012, 11:08 PM
The devs already stated they were looking at reducing Dragonmarks to a single feat with the upgrades being bough enhancements. I imagine that change alone would help with picking up the dragonmark abilities.
The problem with this is that AP can be just as tight as feats on many builds, making them just as likely to be skipped. Of course, since the DM changes to enhancements likely wont occur until the planned overhaul of enhancements, this may become a moot point, depending on how the trees end up and how many points we really have to play around with.

Uska
07-31-2012, 11:11 PM
Dragonmarks should never be a reward kind of thing and I use to be against making them one feat and then AP's to improve them but have changed my mind on that due to how the game works that is the best option I think.

SSFWEl
07-31-2012, 11:16 PM
I am a Halfling Dragonmarked rogue, and I love it. Yes, it takes 3 feats, and I hope they indeed make it one feat and use the enhancements to increase to greater instead of just uses, but making it a reward? No thank you.

But something does need to be done to NOT have getting Greater take total of 3 feats.

Memnir
07-31-2012, 11:56 PM
No thank you.

cdbd3rd
08-01-2012, 12:34 PM
The devs already stated they were looking at reducing Dragonmarks to a single feat with the upgrades being bough enhancements. I imagine that change alone would help with picking up the dragonmark abilities.

That alone would be an awesome change.

Now just to get this from Dev Statement, to Management Approval, then back down the line to an Update. ;)

~UltimateSuperman
08-01-2012, 01:23 PM
Thanks all for the feedback. I see the majority are not inclined for the Dragonmarks to be reward-based. That's cool, I was just trying to think of something to make them a bit more popular. I like the idea of Dragonmarks, but seldom have the feat slots available to take them. I am looking forward to the possibilities presented by the devs (i.e., one feat + AP for progression)...works for me. Have fun in DDO land :D

Galeria
08-01-2012, 02:04 PM
A single feat that progressed with your levels would make them much more worthwhile.

I've loved having the Dragonmark of Passage on a toon that I had no plans to run endgame content on, therefore the lost feats weren't so painful. Expeditious, DDoor and Teleport are extremely useful while leveling.

Fefnir_2011
08-01-2012, 02:12 PM
The problem with this is that AP can be just as tight as feats on many builds, making them just as likely to be skipped. Of course, since the DM changes to enhancements likely wont occur until the planned overhaul of enhancements, this may become a moot point, depending on how the trees end up and how many points we really have to play around with.

Dragonmarks that have no tangible cost associated with acquiring them just went from "flavor build" to mandatory. Besides which, they also talked about reducing/outright removing feat requirements from PrEs, which would make it easier to fit in a Dragonmark feat.

varusso
08-01-2012, 07:20 PM
Dragonmarks that have no tangible cost associated with acquiring them just went from "flavor build" to mandatory. Besides which, they also talked about reducing/outright removing feat requirements from PrEs, which would make it easier to fit in a Dragonmark feat.
The point is shifting them from feat-cost to AP-cost doesnt actually make them more attraactive -- it just makes them inaccessible to a different set of players.

Now, removing feats from pre-reqs is a very cool thing, but you still need 3 feats to get a full DM, so that still only frees it up for a small group of players.

However, making it one feat + enhancements along with nixing feat pre-reqs (taking it all into account) may make them viable.

And there are NO DMs that will be mandatory even if they were free. Aside from the cost to acquire them, they are almost universally underwhelming. Only a couple of them are even remotely worth having, and given that they are racially restricted -- meh.

If there were some way to quest-flag a toon to take OTHER racial DMs -- well now we're talking a whole new ballgame :D