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Xynot2
07-27-2012, 02:33 PM
FUTURE! - fix what's broke first.

I'll use a lv 1 quest for example and use 1k xp as a base for ease of math and dont forget this is an example so the actual xp would be based on what turbine determines is the optimum xp/min.

All lv 1 quest would be rated 1a and 1b so 6 lvs of difficulty (casual isnt figured in since it's 1/2 xp anyway)

1a would be 1-10 min quest
1b would be 10+ (using 12 min max in this example)
so you would have 1a n/h/e and 1b n/h/e

1a would get 1k xp (scale up for h/e)
1b would get 1.2k xp (scale up for h/e)

ransack, persistance and other bonuses would only apply to a group of 4 or more since the average (AVERAGE NOT ALWAYS) group of 3 or less is either learning the quest or trying to speed level.

Scaling for party size would be removed so that if you want to solo, you get what you ask for.

ALL lv 1a and lv 1b quests would be set this way. As with lv 2, 3, 4, etc to cap.
Why? So there is consistency in each quest for each level. Durk's wont get over looked because Butcher's path has more XP, etc. Three barrel cove wont be overlooked because not enough reward for the time it takes to go out there. Be sure to add in the quest window if it's an A or B quest for people who still want that extra XP to grind or for those who dont have a lot of time to spend in place of short/normal/long/very long. Obviously Im not talking about Raids here so not going there. And Im not saying to limit it to 2 divisions. You could just as easily have 4 time specs as there is now.

TR's would know that every quest is the same so going after that one quest that is optimum would be gone and give them more to choose from.

End quests that are same as a raid but only allow 6 players such as part 5 of the necro quests or single quests that are intended to be a challenge like Devils assault would naturally be excluded.

Ok- so there's a basic... shred it.

Inferno346
07-27-2012, 03:08 PM
Wut? In any manually set-up system by people who don't play the game much, there will be optimal quests to run.

The only way to "fix" this is to track average completion times for quests and have the quest xp be based on a multiplier of the average (i.e. ave seconds / 60 * 1000). Even this would have optimal quests for zergers (quests with good optional xp (von3), quests with heavy use of invis that aren't known to the general public (maraud the mines), and quests with a shortcut not practiced by the general public (maze of madness)), but it would be much more balanced than any manual system.

dterror
07-27-2012, 03:14 PM
and quests with a shortcut not practiced by the general public (maze of madness)), .

Such shortcuts are not valid, and I really hope the GM's take a close look at you next time you're running MoM or any other quest with a terrain glitch with their banhammers ready. This isn't taking advantage of a shortcut...this is abusing an exploit.

Impaqt
07-27-2012, 03:18 PM
Huge Fundamental flaw.

No 2 groups are going to run at the exact same pace.

So what do you do? base everything on Powergamers who can complete Elite Crucible in 12 minutes or casual first timers that will spend 2+ hours in there the first time?

dng242
07-27-2012, 03:25 PM
Such shortcuts are not valid, and I really hope the GM's take a close look at you next time you're running MoM or any other quest with a terrain glitch with their banhammers ready. This isn't taking advantage of a shortcut...this is abusing an exploit.

Couldn't disagree more. MoM is a perfect example of working around a problem. I will agree some other quests have silly exploits that should be removed, but MoM and Dust are great examples of getting the job done a different way, exactly what you would do in PnP to think your way through a problem vs the normal bull rush. In fact Turbine should take these and expand the idea into more quests.

dng242
07-27-2012, 03:27 PM
Huge Fundamental flaw.

No 2 groups are going to run at the exact same pace.

So what do you do? base everything on Powergamers who can complete Elite Crucible in 12 minutes or casual first timers that will spend 2+ hours in there the first time?

This is a major flaw, and IMO will keep the actual idea from being implement. But he OP is correct in his base assumption that the quests are very inconsistent xp, and that means a huge amount of content goes virtually unused.

danotmano1998
07-27-2012, 03:30 PM
Huge Fundamental flaw.

No 2 groups are going to run at the exact same pace.

So what do you do? base everything on Powergamers who can complete Elite Crucible in 12 minutes or casual first timers that will spend 2+ hours in there the first time?

You could base it on the average time of completion based on a large number of completions, say 1000 or more. (Sampled from all types of players, gear, etc..)

Since it's the average, it would split the difference between the many types of players.

dterror
07-27-2012, 03:34 PM
You could base it on the average time of completion based on a large number of completions, say 1000 or more.

Since it's the average, it would split the difference between the many types of players.

It would still be slanted more to the powergamer, since they'll farm a quest 8-10 times fairly quickly.
So, if you have a group of first timers that take 120 minutes on a quest to do it 1 time, and a group of powergamers who can farm that same quest 10 times in 120 minutes, you have 11 total runs now taking 240 minutes, at an average run speed of just under 22 minutes.

dng242
07-27-2012, 03:38 PM
You could base it on the average time of completion based on a large number of completions, say 1000 or more. (Sampled from all types of players, gear, etc..)

Since it's the average, it would split the difference between the many types of players.

Probably medium, not average (mean).

That would be fine for short duration quests, but the spread in long duration quests could be substantial. Not such an issue on the taking too much time, but for those that learn to do it in a short time it would become the new drug of choice. Then when Turbine nerfed it, we would have read all the post on how Turbine hates it's players, etc, etc.

danotmano1998
07-27-2012, 03:40 PM
It would still be slanted more to the powergamer, since they'll farm a quest 8-10 times fairly quickly.

Remove repeat runs from same characters.



XP awarded in quests should be somewhat consistent.
Otherwise we have level 9 quests with DOUBLE the XP of a level 19 quest. Which is what we have now. Silly!

A simpler solution would be:

CR of quest (times something) + average time to run (times something) = new xp.
(No, I wont propose exact numbers. But this is essentially the core of the problem. XP should be rewarded based on difficulty and length, right?)

dng242
07-27-2012, 03:45 PM
Remove repeat runs from same characters.

You could probably get away with taking it from 10 (13) repeat runs to more like 4(7), but people are going to repeat quests for other reasons, the main one I run into is running with guildmates, and they want to run that quest (flagging etc). It would be create issues if I couldn't repeat,or got 0 xp for a repeat.
Could make for a very unsocial social experience.

danotmano1998
07-27-2012, 04:01 PM
You could probably get away with taking it from 10 (13) repeat runs to more like 4(7), but people are going to repeat quests for other reasons, the main one I run into is running with guildmates, and they want to run that quest (flagging etc). It would be create issues if I couldn't repeat,or got 0 xp for a repeat.
Could make for a very unsocial social experience.

You're not understanding what I'm saying.

I'm not saying don't allow people to repeat quests.
Im saying don't count repeat completions for the sake of establishing an average completion time. So if a character runs this quest 23 times farming, only the first completion time would count in the calculations.

Xynot2
07-28-2012, 02:13 PM
Huge Fundamental flaw.

No 2 groups are going to run at the exact same pace.

So what do you do? base everything on Powergamers who can complete Elite Crucible in 12 minutes or casual first timers that will spend 2+ hours in there the first time?

If you run 1a in 1 min or 10 min you get the same xp if you smell flower and take 5 hrs.
The trick to this is getting the dificulty of the quests balanceds out. I know there will never be a perfect balance but it can at least be close.


You could probably get away with taking it from 10 (13) repeat runs to more like 4(7), but people are going to repeat quests for other reasons, the main one I run into is running with guildmates, and they want to run that quest (flagging etc). It would be create issues if I couldn't repeat,or got 0 xp for a repeat.
Could make for a very unsocial social experience.

I left out repeat on purpose but should have made some sort of comment.

First time bonus and bravery bonuses would apply as they do now but there would be no penalty for repeating a quest. It's the only actual way the devs can see which quests are popular and which ones aren't. Right now, there is no way to measure what's popular. What I mean by that is... 2 things right now are the major draw or repulsion to quests. Loot and XP. Fun doesn't have much sway. If the quests were the same challenge, loot and xp, the ones that were fun would be the ones that got played.

Note: I dont mean the exact same loot. I mean spreading out the good stuff amongst all of the quests and leaving the really good stuff for epics, raids etc.

redspecter23
07-28-2012, 02:20 PM
My guess is Turbine already uses a similar system, except they run quests completely differently than we do. They spend 3 hours in Shadow Crypt and Von 3 runs (boy those are tough) but they use some special "tactic" to zerg Threnal east 3 in 4 seconds and blast through Amrath and House C quests in 5 minutes each. Using that math, everything is fine.

Impaqt
07-28-2012, 02:31 PM
If you run 1a in 1 min or 10 min you get the same xp if you smell flower and take 5 hrs.
The trick to this is getting the dificulty of the quests balanceds out. I know there will never be a perfect balance but it can at least be close.



No. It cant. You need to Pick a playstyle to "Balance" against.

Some groups still take 60 minutes to do a full Crucible run.... Others Do it in 12.

Every quest is like this. Do you base your time on Power gamers or first time runs? Its a HUGE difference in Time no matter what the quest is..... If you base your time on Casual first time runs, the power gamers get an exponential boost in XP.... If you base it on the power gamers, you screw everyone.

XP needs to be determined on a case by case basis just as it has since the game started. Yes. Some quests have the wrong base XP assigned to them still. Happens. no way around it. But how the devs do it now is far superior than trying to base the system on some misguided time of completion system.

Xynot2
07-28-2012, 02:40 PM
No. It cant. You need to Pick a playstyle to "Balance" against.

Some groups still take 60 minutes to do a full Crucible run.... Others Do it in 12.

Every quest is like this. Do you base your time on Power gamers or first time runs? Its a HUGE difference in Time no matter what the quest is..... If you base your time on Casual first time runs, the power gamers get an exponential boost in XP.... If you base it on the power gamers, you screw everyone.

XP needs to be determined on a case by case basis just as it has since the game started. Yes. Some quests have the wrong base XP assigned to them still. Happens. no way around it. But how the devs do it now is far superior than trying to base the system on some misguided time of completion system.

I understand. I would base it on an average. Throw in a group of moderate players and another group of power gamers and average it out. (this is for explanation. Testing should be more than 2 runs). You cannot base this on new players. It's also why I should have said to separated out Elites with no epic and epics. I believe that Quests with epics, h/n/e should be able to be completed by a group of moderate players and those without epics would include h/n

Power gamers should have as much fun as moderate ones (moderate meaning excellent players that aren't min/maxers who spend all their time on endgame). Quests withgout epic- Elite should be for the power gamer. Quests with Epics- eElite should be for power gamers.

Lagin
07-28-2012, 03:02 PM
XP needs to be determined on a case by case basis just as it has since the game started. Yes. Some quests have the wrong base XP assigned to them still. Happens. no way around it. But how the devs do it now is far superior than trying to base the system on some misguided time of completion system.

This.

Time VS. Xp is a bad formula. Maybe in a challenge, but not "traditional" DDO quests.

Postumus
07-28-2012, 03:27 PM
No. It cant. You need to Pick a playstyle to "Balance" against.

Some groups still take 60 minutes to do a full Crucible run.... Others Do it in 12.

Every quest is like this. Do you base your time on Power gamers or first time runs? Its a HUGE difference in Time no matter what the quest is..... If you base your time on Casual first time runs, the power gamers get an exponential boost in XP.... If you base it on the power gamers, you screw everyone.

XP needs to be determined on a case by case basis just as it has since the game started. Yes. Some quests have the wrong base XP assigned to them still. Happens. no way around it. But how the devs do it now is far superior than trying to base the system on some misguided time of completion system.

Agreed.

Postumus
07-28-2012, 03:29 PM
Such shortcuts are not valid, and I really hope the GM's take a close look at you next time you're running MoM or any other quest with a terrain glitch with their banhammers ready. This isn't taking advantage of a shortcut...this is abusing an exploit.

The MoM is not an exploit. It is as intended.