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karatemack
07-27-2012, 09:09 AM
So... while I get that DDO is based off of the PnP version of Dungeons and Dragons there are many differences as well. There have to be differences as certain aspects which are passable or appealing in PnP just won't translate well into an online game.

Having said that, I get why there is an XP curve and when TR'ing was the endgame it made perfect sense. But now we're moving into Epic Levels and TR'ing just isn't the endgame anymore. There is no XP curve for Epic Levels or ED's despite how many past lives you have or how many ED's you have leveled up. As more Epic Levels are introduced this difference will make even less sense. For instance, once there are 20 heroic and 20 Epic Levels why do the first 20 have an xp curve while the second 20 are standard? Even with 5 Epic Levels it stands out like a sore thumb. For 20% of my levels there is no curve, the first 80 there is.

Recently people had an intense negative reaction to the challenge XP being reduced. For all the various reasons among them they could be summed up as "boredom from grinding for xp". There is a lot of frustration of the nature of the game being geared towards endless grinding. Not all of us lock ourselves up in our grandparent's basement to play for a month at a time.

An easy fix to all of this frustration, IMO, would be to standardize XP. Lock it in at 1,900,000 to level 20 regardless of past lives. This would put heroic XP in line with the way Epic Levels and ED's are working. It would also ease the grind a bit and make the lack of higher level content less noticable.

A discussion about XP balance on the forums generally ignores a few things: 1) People argue that this will enable the power gamers. [got news for ya, the power gamers already have their completionist toons. This suggestion will affect the mass of ordinary players in a positive way] 2) Games have to be fun. You have to reward your players. People like to feel like they're getting more powerful. People stuck in an endless grind don't feel more powerful. That makes the game less fun. The game not being fun means people don't play and turbine loses money. 3) This would mean tons of revenue for Turbine. More casual players who would never take on TR'ing [due to the xp grind] would now TR. Imagine all the heart sales! 4) There is a built in mechanism to prevent people from TR'ing too fast. If the problem is really people TR'ing through lives too fast simply change the in-game mechanic for Kruz. Don't punish casual gamers in an endless purgatory of quests granting moderate XP with XP requirements which are anachronisms of a system in which TR'ing was the endgame.

Discuss.

Jsbeer
07-27-2012, 09:40 AM
Not a bad idea, but my guess is that the TR XP system has been in place too long for Turbine to bother changing it. Which is a shame really as now we have Epic Destinys, PLs are in general now not that useful.

At the present time I personally feel that the only TR that is clearly worth it is a single Wizard life for a caster: +2 spell pen and a +1 DC feat is very nice for 3.1 million XP. After that if you want to break Epic Elite spell pen, then if you are a Wizard 3 preparatory Wizard lives followed by TRing into an Elf works. If you don't want to be an Elf or are on a non-wizard you also really need the 3*FvS lives too.

For tanks 3*Paly Life may well be worth it, as +15% healing Amplification is very nice. For general melees you 'might' consider this if you have a lot of time.

Apart form this I really don't see any other TR that is worth it, with all the power you can get from Epic Destinys.....


So yes, good idea but I doubt it will happen because of simple inertia :(

CaptainSpacePony
07-27-2012, 11:19 AM
Apart form this I really don't see any other TR that is worth it, with all the power you can get from Epic Destinys.....
(

But I want to "Win at DDO" so I must keep TRing.

karatemack
07-28-2012, 10:59 AM
Not a bad idea, but my guess is that the TR XP system has been in place too long for Turbine to bother changing it. Which is a shame really as now we have Epic Destinys, PLs are in general now not that useful.

At the present time I personally feel that the only TR that is clearly worth it is a single Wizard life for a caster: +2 spell pen and a +1 DC feat is very nice for 3.1 million XP. After that if you want to break Epic Elite spell pen, then if you are a Wizard 3 preparatory Wizard lives followed by TRing into an Elf works. If you don't want to be an Elf or are on a non-wizard you also really need the 3*FvS lives too.

For tanks 3*Paly Life may well be worth it, as +15% healing Amplification is very nice. For general melees you 'might' consider this if you have a lot of time.

Apart form this I really don't see any other TR that is worth it, with all the power you can get from Epic Destinys.....


So yes, good idea but I doubt it will happen because of simple inertia :(


It is something the devs should really consider at this point. Especially considering the high levels of frustration with the grind at this point.

shadereaper33
07-28-2012, 11:38 AM
The xp curve is there because, quite simply, every life on a TR 1-20 gives you something more, permanently. 21-25 do not, therefore no xp increase is present. I do agree that something should be done, either in reducing the scale of the curve, or increasing the xp from quests in the 18-20 range, but getting rid of it entirely is not the way to go about it.

FranOhmsford
07-28-2012, 12:06 PM
I'd love to see a lvl 1 character trying to grind 95k xp just to get to lvl 2!

1.9 mil / 20 = 95k

shadereaper33
07-28-2012, 12:08 PM
I'd love to see a lvl 1 character trying to grind 95k xp just to get to lvl 2!

1.9 mil / 20 = 95k

I think you missed this one. the OP isn't complaining about the fact that 19-20 req's more xp than 1-2, but rather that 19-20 on a TR 2+ req's more than 19-20 on a first life.

FranOhmsford
07-28-2012, 12:26 PM
I think you missed this one. the OP isn't complaining about the fact that 19-20 req's more xp than 1-2, but rather that 19-20 on a TR 2+ req's more than 19-20 on a first life.

That would be a possibility but after life 3 it doesn't change anyway - Frankly those who TR tend to very quickly Race through the levels as is.

It's first lifers who have the trouble getting through the levels - And then only because they don't know you only have to run a few quests over and over again - Or if like me they don't want to only run those few quests over and over again.

With Forgotten Realms and Challenges there's no longer even a big problem at Lvl 17+ with earning xp so /not signed

I'm sure we'll be getting more epic quests too in future.

Xynot2
07-28-2012, 03:53 PM
I have to preface my upcoming comments by saying that it completely depends on whether or not you can do all of your destinies in one life or not. Twists and all.


You can skip your EDs and still TR at 20. So changing the XP curve doesn't need to be done.

Lithic
07-28-2012, 04:05 PM
A lvl 25, 28pt character, with a single maxed out (approriate) destiny is far more powerful than a lvl 25, 36pt character, with 42 past lives that lacks a destiny.

This means that if you don't like the grind, there is even less of a reason to bother with it now as the power increase from a heck of a lot of TRing will be so very much less significant in most cases. The exception being casters and spell penetration. Those are still worth while, though the past life bonuses are not as overwhelming as they were before epic levels.

This is good news for the stereotypical casual player who has 12 minutes a month to play as the end game power gap was closed significantly for most builds, and it is easier than ever to have a meaningful contribution at end game without excessive time to grind out all the best loot and abilities.

karatemack
07-28-2012, 06:24 PM
The xp curve is there because, quite simply, every life on a TR 1-20 gives you something more, permanently. 21-25 do not, therefore no xp increase is present. I do agree that something should be done, either in reducing the scale of the curve, or increasing the xp from quests in the 18-20 range, but getting rid of it entirely is not the way to go about it.

Do twists of fate count? The level gains from 21-25 and the ED's most certainly DO provide you with a PERMANENT boost when you're running endgame.


I'd love to see a lvl 1 character trying to grind 95k xp just to get to lvl 2!

1.9 mil / 20 = 95k

No. Not what I meant at all. I meant once you have 1,900,000 xp you are level 20 regardless of how many past lives you have.


You can skip your EDs and still TR at 20. So changing the XP curve doesn't need to be done.

Yes, you can, but no few will. Why go through the TR grind for little to no gain? As Lithic so eloquently pointed out:


with a single maxed out (approriate) destiny is far more powerful than a lvl 25, 36pt character, with 42 past lives that lacks a destiny.

Again, people need to feel like they're accomplishing something with their time. The time it takes for MOST players to grind out 3rd life + does not justify the small gains. The power gamers already fly through lives, that isn't going to change. Why not make a change to the game which will positively impact a large portion of the player base and make the game more fun in general? If there really need to be controls on how fast people fly through lives implement that through Kruz, not by punishing dedicated players with endless grindage.

V_mad_jester_V
07-30-2012, 07:18 AM
there just going to add in a ton o content for us to spend dough on to fix the xp curves

but i would like to see more fights, in pnp going past level 20 means your going into demi god status and can face demi gods, i think at level 30 you can start facing the gods (vecna, Saint Cuthbert (for my evil campaigns), Boccob, ect) you are suppose to have a long hard road to travel when getting ready to face these gods.

i hope hope hope they get to the point of allowing us to challenge high end gods