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Unrealdream
07-17-2012, 02:59 PM
This is the build i'm planning, enhancements are delayed until level 7 since i own veteran 7. I would love to have feedback on the build as this is my first monk. I was also wondering if it was still worth taking touch of death considering my wisdom is pretty low.

Thank you!




Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Half-Elf Male
(20 Monk)
Hit Points: 304
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 15
Will: 17

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 21 22
Dexterity 15 17 17
Constitution 14 14 14
Intelligence 12 12 12
Wisdom 12 14 20
Charisma 8 8 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 6 26 32
Bluff -1 -1 -1
Concentration 6 25 46
Diplomacy -1 -1 -1
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle -1 -1 -1
Heal 1 5 5
Hide 6 26 30
Intimidate -1 -1 -1
Jump 7 29 31
Listen 1 5 5
Move Silently 6 26 30
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 1 1 1
Search 1 1 1
Spot 1 5 5
Swim 3 6 6
Tumble n/a n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 3 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)


Level 5 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)


Level 6 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Concentration
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist


Level 7 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II


Level 9 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Void Strike II


Level 10 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise III
Enhancement: Improved Concentration III


Level 11 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires


Level 13 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration IV


Level 14 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)


Level 15 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom III


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante II


Level 17 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise IV


Level 18 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Grandmaster of the Sun


Level 19 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Ten Thousand Stars
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Improved Balance II

elg582
07-17-2012, 05:03 PM
Just my opinion, but unless you are building for AC and taking combat expertise (which I don't recommend), 12 INT is too high; you could put those points into WIS for more effect.

Skill Focus: Concentration is not terribly important, and could be replaced with a tactical feat. Improved Sunder would be my suggestion, but Cleave would let you trade a toughness for Great Cleave if you wanted to get Overwhelming critical as an epic feat.

You should also consider what stance you want to be your primary, as you will need a base 18 in the relevant ability score. In your build, you would only qualify for tier 4 of fire stance. If you want another stance, you can drop STR to 15 (or even 14, it's not the end of the world) and put those points into DEX, CON, or WIS.

In any case, take Touch of Death; even 12 WIS only costs you -2 DC, it does half damage on saves, works on most enemies in the game, and can theoretically deal ~3600 damage per use (average is more like ~900). Keep ninja fade up at all times and craft a displacement clicky ASAP.

SensaiRyu
07-17-2012, 05:27 PM
I'm of the opinion that wisdom now beats str builds for monks. I'd go wisdom, con, dex, str.

With 32 points, I'd probably go 12/15/16/8/16/8 or 14/15/15/8/16/8. Put level ups into wisdom and maybe one dex for GM Air if you want.

Keep in mind that your wisdom will add to both your DCs and AC. The epic feat, Vorpal Strikes, requires a 23 wisdom if it matters.

For your enhancements - GM Earth III+ adds +1 crit multiplier. GM air for extra double-strike chances. Wisdom III is very expensive, as is Greater Human Adapt: Wis.

GM Sun drops wisdom by 2.

Ten thousand stars isn't worth it. One toughness for a feat is enuf.

Improved Sunder increases your SF DC by 3 if it hits. Stacks 5 times and lasts 24 seconds.

Skill focus: concentration isn't worth it. I have the improved con enhancement at II because I had to take both to open up other enhancements. Turtle I is fine.

Swap out Toughness and Skill focus: concentration for Precision and either Improved Sunder or Cleave.

Touch of Death on a failed save does half damage.

The real question is... Does the 50ki cost of ToD make it worth it when you can use Drifting Lotus for about 400 dmg to a nearby mob?

The follow-on question is... Are dark monks worth it anymore?

Potta
07-17-2012, 05:52 PM
The real question is... Does the 50ki cost of ToD make it worth it when you can use Drifting Lotus for about 400 dmg to a nearby mob?

The follow-on question is... Are dark monks worth it anymore?

ToD is definitely still worth it. The GMoF abilities interrupt your attacks. In fact it's not always worth using them depending on the number of mobs you have around you. ToD has no such drawback. Though I do find myself more starved for Ki than I used to be. There are abilities I used to use which have been cut now because there are simply better options. I always kept Ultimate Mountain Stance mainly for the strike damage. Now I rarely use it anymore because I don't have the Ki for it. I may drop the top two tiers and free up 7 AP. That could be another 10% healing amp.

SensaiRyu
07-17-2012, 06:46 PM
ToD is definitely still worth it. The GMoF abilities interrupt your attacks. [Snip]

The 300 dmg you give just from lily petal, every 6 seconds and for only 10 ki more than make up for any slight attack interruption you'll get.

The 300+ dmg (my dmg is in the 400s) you give to all of the mob surrounding you and for half the ki is definitely worth the attack interruption you'd get.

I don't notice the attack interruption.

ToD doesn't add to EiN's counter.

wax_on_wax_off
07-17-2012, 07:06 PM
I'd go light on a first life monk unless you have a level 90+ crafter for metalline of pure good handwraps. Otherwise it's very expensive/time consuming to acquire DR breakers for a monk. Start with light and then swap to dark at a time in the future.

For starting stats I'd go 14/15/14/8/14/8 which leaves 6 points over to distribute as you like (15 con for GM earth with a +3 con tome and 16 wisdom for better DCs would be my choice, I'd put level ups into strength and/or wisdom).

Potta
07-17-2012, 07:38 PM
No, you cannot consider Lily Petal a substitute for Touch of Death. Orchid Blossom only comes close to ToD when you've got several mobs without evasion around you. Lily Petal never comes close.

There is about a half second delay after using any of these abilities. If anything, I'd say I'm underestimating it. But lets go with half a second. Monks attack at 11 swings per 6 seconds. Half a second out of that means you're basically missing a swing. And one swing is 2-3 strikes due to TWF+Doublestrike. I don't know about you, but I'm doing ~150-200 damage per swing at the moment, non crit. More if the mob is helpless. You're giving up 2 strikes at ~150-200 damage each to do 300 damage at the cost of 10ki. Why? You'd do more damage just swinging. Oh and, that 300 damage they can save against for half. Oh, and if they have Evasion, they'll avoid all the damage. And if they have Imp Evasion, they'll take half even if they make their save.

This isn't just a case of Lily Petal not stacking up well against ToD, it doesn't even compare against our basic melee. It doesn't have to because it's ranged. It's not meant to be used in melee.

Lets consider ToD now. Did you know that ToD can now fairly easily reach ~1200 damage per proc? And it can proc 2-3 times. Failed save + Touch of Despair vuln + Stunned mob + Sense Weakness. Yeah, the Sense Weakness applies to ToD damage too because it's considered part of your melee strike. All damage done in addition to melee, not competing with it.

I'm not going to say that Orchid Blossom and Drifting Lotus aren't situationally better than ToD because that's stupid. It's in the nature of AOE attacks to do more overall damage in an area than a single target attack does. But just how many mobs must you have for this to be true? Lets consider Orchid Blossom. It'll do around 350 damage on average on a failed save. ToD will average 1500. So you need 5 mobs for Orchid Blossom to just surpass ToD. If all of them are in range. And all of them fail their save. And all of them don't have Imp Evasion. Realistically, with these considerations in place, you'd need on the order of 8-10 mobs for Orchid Blossom to really do more damage than ToD. That's fairly niche to be honest. And it gets even worse. When that many mobs are around, you typically find that a bulk of them are weaker, trashy mobs whose main threat is getting in your way and upping the Dungeon Alert, stopping you from attacking the few mobs in the pack that are truly dangerous. The casters and high damage mobs that you want to shut down ASAP. Orchid Blossom doesn't consider this. It just does mediocre damage to what's nearby. Touch of Death is a large burst of damage to a target you want dead as soon as possible. So even in situations that make Orchid Blossom look like a better choice than ToD, often, it's not. Because in packs that size, many of the mobs are CC'd/Insta-killed/not worth focusing on. Damage on those targets may as well be wasted.

It also breaks fascinate. ToD doesn't.

And as regards the EiN counter, that's not worth considering at all. EiN also has a cooldown, 3 minutes. 180 seconds. Stunning Fist is a 6 second cooldown that you can use 30 times within those 3 minutes. You can charge EiN entirely from stuns, with several to spare.

SensaiRyu
07-18-2012, 02:59 PM
[Snip] I don't know about you, but I'm doing ~150-200 damage per swing at the moment, non crit. More if the mob is helpless. [Snip]

During beta (which isn't an ideal comparison) I was able to, after some unknown buff, get my base to ~100. I haven't seen that since beta.

I'd like to see your equips/build please. I'm second life and reasonably equipped.

Lily petal evades are very rare.

Taimasan
07-18-2012, 03:11 PM
During beta (which isn't an ideal comparison) I was able to, after some unknown buff, get my base to ~100. I haven't seen that since beta.

I'd like to see your equips/build please. I'm second life and reasonably equipped.

Lily petal evades are very rare.

On the contrary, lily petal and blossom both have reflex saves. The type of saves which DDO mobs save against the most. If your evades are rare it is most likely against a caster. And if your talking about mobs not saving in non-MOTU content well...I think that may speak for itself.

Potta
07-18-2012, 03:51 PM
During beta (which isn't an ideal comparison) I was able to, after some unknown buff, get my base to ~100. I haven't seen that since beta.

I'd like to see your equips/build please. I'm second life and reasonably equipped.

Lily petal evades are very rare.

I'm 5th life with 3 monk past lives, but it really doesn't make that much of a difference.

~60-70 base damage
~30-40 sneak attack damage
1-12 Tunnel Vision
2-12 Entropic
2-12 Holy Burst
1-4 Brawling Gloves
1-8 Sense Weakness
1-10 Sense Weakness
1-12 Sense Weakness
~9 avg per hit from Manslayer/Vorpal Strikes

This can increase further with an Arti for Deadly/Elemental Weapon buffs. It can increase from another ToD ring once I get Exceptional Sneak on a different item. It increases again with Bard buffs. The fact is you are giving up 400 damage to have a chance at doing ~300. Half that if it saves, and none at all if they have Evasion and save. And you spend Ki for the privilege. You then boast about making this decision as if it somehow makes Touch of Death obsolete. Far from it. Your melee makes this ability worthless in melee, to say nothing of Touch of Death.

Oh and I see a lot of saves in MotU content. I'm wisdom based at the moment, so I'm sporting a reasonable DC, but still see mobs save quite a lot, even on hard. I can only imagine that it gets worse on Epic Elite.

SensaiRyu
07-18-2012, 06:32 PM
I'll look at my numbers. Thanks.

We have the same base and similar bonuses.

I don't have sneak.