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UrbanPyro
07-11-2012, 02:54 PM
Deleted.

jortann
07-11-2012, 02:58 PM
Here is a thought....

Change the proc on the random loot gen weapons to only proc on a 20.

But return Terror and the Wraps to their previous proc rate.

It is not fair to change named items that someone had to grind for.

xveganrox
07-11-2012, 03:03 PM
Here is a thought....

Change the proc on the random loot gen weapons to only proc on a 20.

But return Terror and the Wraps to their previous proc rate.

It is not fair to change named items that someone had to grind for.

I'd be okay with this. But people also had to grind for high-critrange weapons with Nightmares on them - a much harder grind, really

Munkenmo
07-11-2012, 03:05 PM
I'd be okay with this. But people also had to grind for high-critrange weapons with Nightmares on them - a much harder grind, really

no they didn't, they got those by proxy from playing w/e high level content they felt like.

eden2760
07-11-2012, 03:06 PM
Here is a thought....

Change the proc on the random loot gen weapons to only proc on a 20.

But return Terror and the Wraps to their previous proc rate.

It is not fair to change named items that someone had to grind for.

+1 for sure.

Hell how about this:

Normal loot table: Nightmare with contingent on vorpal strike.
Terror/Tharak wraps: Improved Nightmare (or nightmare burst, or something similar :p) for crits/no-saves.

CheeseMilk
07-11-2012, 03:18 PM
Yes, Terror was nerfed.

Sometimes, things are just too good to be true, and devalue other weapons and styles of play just by being around. It can certainly hurt to be on the receiving end of a nerf, but this weapon proc really needed it.

It's still very good even when it just procs on a Natural 20.

From this thread. (http://forums.ddo.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4579658)

Saravis
07-11-2012, 04:52 PM
I'd be cool with changing it to having the named items proc on crit and non-named proc on vorpal.

However, I suggested in another thread that they could change the proc to a constant percentage rate, similar to how lightning strike and radiance weapons work. I was think a proc rate of somewhere in the 10-20% range.

Vulgari
07-11-2012, 06:54 PM
I'd be okay with this. But people also had to grind for high-critrange weapons with Nightmares on them - a much harder grind, really

Harder grind?
I got mine from the AH at around 150% of base value.
Virtually zero grind for me since all I had to do was search for nightmare, sort the results and find the best option.

Talias006
07-11-2012, 07:05 PM
From this thread. (http://forums.ddo.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4579658)

Please just link to the thread instead of a reply quote, like this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4579658#post4579658)

captain1z
07-11-2012, 11:08 PM
On a named two handed sword and named handwraps they were fine.
On random loot, the horse got out the barn.
A lesser, randomly generated version is fine as shroud items are getting the same treatment.
You can get a lightning strike weapon without all the bells and whistles, still making the originals more sought after.
While people without access didnt feel entirely left behind.

This suggestion makes sense.

Sidewaysgts86
07-12-2012, 03:02 AM
/Signed and /Signed again. I'd been looking forward to getting a Terror for my FvS for quite some time and LRed him into a build specifically to make use of that gear (along with the insanity sword for extra-tough mobs with high saves) once I acquired it. I was thinking that recently he'd felt lack luster, I just assumed it was because of the "new content" I was in, I hadnt realized itd been nerfed into only working on vorpals.

Def agree there should be a normal nightmares, and a "superior nightmares" Maybe we can call it "Even scarier nightmares", just return it to proccing on crits please

zwiebelring
07-12-2012, 03:12 AM
Suggestion: Revert it to the way it once was, remove it from the random gen loot tables, and keep it exclusively to Terror, and Thaarak Wraps.

That is exactly what I thought all the time.

/signed

Uska
07-12-2012, 03:42 AM
I'd be okay with this. But people also had to grind for high-critrange weapons with Nightmares on them - a much harder grind, really

It is much easier to get a nightmare weapon than the wraps but Terror is really easy to get now it didnt use to be but super easy now. Not firmly against changing it back as it is a named item but it isnt hard to get

So just change the wraps back because they are still a super grind to get and no I still dont have them yet because ignorant people passing them to people that plan to tr to monk in 3 or 4 lives.

Uska
07-12-2012, 03:43 AM
Here is a thought....

Change the proc on the random loot gen weapons to only proc on a 20.

But return Terror and the Wraps to their previous proc rate.

It is not fair to change named items that someone had to grind for.


agree with the wraps they are still a grind to get(maybe some day I will have them)

but not terror it is no longer a grind to get its super easy to get.

I will agree terror is a named item so my stance about changing it back isnt really hard just mainly pointing out its not a grind to get it

wkavinsky
07-12-2012, 08:51 AM
The whole point of why Dev's are OK with the spell PK, is that it's a two-save spell that all mobs have at least one good save against (will then fort), that is linked to how good the player is. And it's on an 8s cooldown.

Nightmare (the effect) has no cooldown, with a save that isn't really that much worse than a level 22 wizard (normal player) can get.

The issue comes in with the improved critical range of weapons - when you're critting on say, 15-20, that's ~30% of all your hits casting a PK spell. Add in the ability to cleave / hit multiple mobs in one swing, and then add in, what, call it 3 attacks a second, and you're looking at (with two trash mobs), and average of (60*3)*2*30% => 180*2*30% => 360*30% = 108. But lets be nice and say you're a truly gimp character and use only a third of that. There aren't many mobs that will not fail 36 double saves in a 1 minute period. Ergo, compared to the wizard with his 7.5 casts of the spell, Nightmare is horribly, horribly over powered.

All abilities need to be balanced - this one more than most, and even on a natural 20, you're going get on average 18 procs per minute against the same two mobs. Hardly an irrelevance, just not actually stupid OP.

P.S. Vorpal should work better.

Sidewaysgts86
07-13-2012, 01:59 AM
The whole point of why Dev's are OK with the spell PK, is that it's a two-save spell that all mobs have at least one good save against (will then fort), that is linked to how good the player is. And it's on an 8s cooldown.

Nightmare (the effect) has no cooldown, with a save that isn't really that much worse than a level 22 wizard (normal player) can get.

The issue comes in with the improved critical range of weapons - when you're critting on say, 15-20, that's ~30% of all your hits casting a PK spell. Add in the ability to cleave / hit multiple mobs in one swing, and then add in, what, call it 3 attacks a second, and you're looking at (with two trash mobs), and average of (60*3)*2*30% => 180*2*30% => 360*30% = 108. But lets be nice and say you're a truly gimp character and use only a third of that. There aren't many mobs that will not fail 36 double saves in a 1 minute period. Ergo, compared to the wizard with his 7.5 casts of the spell, Nightmare is horribly, horribly over powered.

All abilities need to be balanced - this one more than most, and even on a natural 20, you're going get on average 18 procs per minute against the same two mobs. Hardly an irrelevance, just not actually stupid OP.

P.S. Vorpal should work better.

Food for thought to consider: Whats the DC on nightmare? Whats the average DC of a wizard casting PK? Thanks.

akash
07-13-2012, 02:24 AM
/Signed for Thaarak Wraps (tough raid loot to get, besides monks have very limited choice of items).

/Not Signed for Terror (it's an easy cheat to get now, moreover good DPS/tank melee rarely use that thing)

wkavinsky
07-18-2012, 04:04 PM
Food for thought to consider: Whats the DC on nightmare? Whats the average DC of a wizard casting PK? Thanks.

Nightmares - 36 (Source (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4149998#post4149998))

Wizard casting PK (using me @23 with caster ED, heighten, and everything else, 50sp, 6s cooldown) - 39.

So, I get +3 DC, can cast ~50 from a full blue bar, with a 6s cooldown.

Melee gets -3 DC (15% more likely saves), multiple hits in one swing possible, no CD.

I'd say that was OP.

V_mad_jester_V
07-18-2012, 04:44 PM
/not signed

as a monk/monk like builds i got the choice of soul eater if im twf built
kamas (for vorps) but kamas blow

the handwraps (but you alwasy get a **** ton o monks for HoX and thers high competition for those wraps)
i like nightmare wraps, and plus all the ones i found are absolute min level 20