View Full Version : Rogue Weapon Finesse revisited - is it indeed superfluous now?

07-09-2012, 05:45 AM
Saw some comments in this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=382770 regarding Weapon Finesse.

As a dex based, weapon finessed rogue (yes, we are GREAT for end game - please go open another thread if you want to argue THAT) I was wondering about the comments in that thread,

Namely, that even for a dex based rogue, finesse is not really needed anymore because of the AC changes.
Is this accurate? I am NOT changing to str based, so does this indeed hold true for a dex based rogue who wants to keep his rapier collection? Would love to free up a feat. But I am not sure I understand this.


07-09-2012, 12:28 PM
The rogue in the other thread starts out with a DEX 6 higher than his STR, so he'd get +3 to hit from Weapon finesse. (at cap, 15 higher, so +7) Depending on a bunch of variables, this might not be the best thing he could do considering he's getting only his third feat at level 6. It's comparable to what people often give up for Power Attack. Also, at low levels the % of damage that's coming from sneak attack dice is much smaller.

I don't think it's sorted out yet what the possibilities/thresholds are for DEX rogues at the moment. It used to be that it was harder to raise DEX than STR, and the returns on doing so were very limited. There's now more ways to raise DEX, and more advantages to doing so.

Pre-update, to-hit thresholds were also pretty well thought out. It was known what AB was needed to hit Horoth, eMalicia, the LoB, eVelah, etc. The question of, for instance, what's an optimal AB for hitting Velah on EH vs. EE, and what tradeoffs are worth it, hasn't been hashed out yet.

07-09-2012, 12:37 PM
The elongated AC/AB curve makes this question rather more complicated to work out than the old "hits on a 2" threshold number. Rogann's max DPS thread is where some of this is being hashed out at the moment. I never played anything like Rogann's build, but regularly used his thread as a reference so I knew what DPS I was trading away for the increased durability/versatility I preferred.

As far as the question of whether finesse is 1) needed and, 2) a good choice: it's a complicated curve, or series of curves, that depends on the difficulty of the content you're playing vs. your attack bonus. You might want to test in whatever is difficult content for you, and see if misses ever become a problem, and how much to-hit you're getting from finesse. I don't see it as a sure thing either way, rather than as a tradeoff of values with other specific feats.

07-10-2012, 10:17 AM
which is why i wish they would add dex to dmg to finesse. it's even weaker post-motu, and it was shunned before. :(

07-10-2012, 02:42 PM
It's my most sincere hope that the enhancement pass will add the ability to use dex or int for to-hit/damage into the Rogue enhancements. Until then, I would say that Weapon Finesse is still "sub-optimal". Really all you'll notice from going strength-based, though, is marginally more to-hit, and a better ability to handle not getting your sneak attack damage.

07-11-2012, 08:28 AM
Improved sneak attack requires 21 dex, finesse rogues should easily have enough for it. At least they have that going for them.

07-11-2012, 01:19 PM
Improved sneak attack requires 21 dex, finesse rogues should easily have enough for it. At least they have that going for them.

it's not that hard for a strength rogue either, so long as they're willing to sacrifice a small amount of strength - ie they will no longer start with 18 (or 16 for halflings or 20 for half-orcs), but will otherwise be pretty much the same.

or at least, that's what strength-based rogues *should* be doing is boosting their dex a little bit more in base stats, if they want to be as effective as possible.

edit: for example, a fairly "typical" strength rogue will have 15 base dex at chargen, boost to 17 with a tome, and call it a day. if, instead, you were to make your dex 17 (which will require a few points to be reassigned, quite possibly 2 points off of strength unless you're a race with a dex bonus), and add a +3 tome (they drop unbound in epic content, though that's not the same thing as saying it's trivial... still, with a bit of planning quite possible), you would need only one more point to get to 21 which you can get from level-ups.

07-15-2012, 05:43 PM
it is kind of strange, but a halfling strength build is really just a balanced build. if you start with 14 STR, 17 DEX in order to get ISA (+3 tome, 1 lvl up) your DEX and STR will be pretty much balanced at higher lvls. Will this build be able to hit ok in epics though?