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wax_on_wax_off
06-26-2012, 07:33 AM
So every other character creation option in the game is either accessible via VIP status or unlocking in the game (races, classes etc).

Is Epic Destinies the first time that DDO's gone full pay2access character creation regardless of VIP status or anything? Seems like a bit of a kick in the teeth for VIPs (unless VIPs do get it?)

I suggest that partial access to Epic Destinies be granted to characters based on their build status.
Adventurer (28 pt): No access to EDs
Champion (32 pt): Can go to level 1 in an ED
Hero (34 pt): Can go to level 2 in an ED
Legendary (36 pt): Can go to level 3 in an ED
Completionist: Can go to level 4 in an ED

This is pretty conservative but it could be considered a bare minimum for the illusion of consistency.

Flame away :)

destiny4405
06-26-2012, 08:00 AM
get off my windmills :)

Jay203
06-26-2012, 02:01 PM
meh, just think of them as paid classes that you can't unlock with favor
if you want them, buy them~

Cyr
06-26-2012, 02:05 PM
/signed

Having people be gimped is not 'fun' for other players. That is how DDO works for most people...they end up in parties with others eventually and a the difference between a level 25 no destiny toon and a level 25 fully upgraded destiny toon is huge.

Ravoc-DDO
06-26-2012, 02:21 PM
/not signed

It's an expansion, not an update.

Qzipoun
06-26-2012, 02:26 PM
/not signed

It's an expansion, not an update.

You could use the same logic for epic levels... yet people can level to 25

The main issue here is the current system will scale horribly. Add another 5 levels and the gap just keeps widening between those with EDs and those without.

shadereaper33
06-26-2012, 02:32 PM
You could use the same logic for epic levels... yet people can level to 25

The main issue here is the current system will scale horribly. Add another 5 levels and the gap just keeps widening between those with EDs and those without.

In other MMO's that release expansion's, you can't access any of the expansion content without paying for it. Here, Turbine decides to give F2P a bone by letting them access some of the content for free, and people are complaining that they aren't allowing them to access enough of the content for free. Besides, when u15 comes out in a few months, people will be able to buy epic destinies with TP, which they can earn for free in game. Can anyone think of another MMO as good as this one where you can purchase an entire expansion for it without actually having to spend real money on it?

valarx
06-26-2012, 02:37 PM
So every other character creation option in the game is either accessible via VIP status or unlocking in the game (races, classes etc).

Is Epic Destinies the first time that DDO's gone full pay2access character creation regardless of VIP status or anything? Seems like a bit of a kick in the teeth for VIPs (unless VIPs do get it?)

I suggest that partial access to Epic Destinies be granted to characters based on their build status.
Adventurer (28 pt): No access to EDs
Champion (32 pt): Can go to level 1 in an ED
Hero (34 pt): Can go to level 2 in an ED
Legendary (36 pt): Can go to level 3 in an ED
Completionist: Can go to level 4 in an ED

This is pretty conservative but it could be considered a bare minimum for the illusion of consistency.

Flame away :)

I'm for adding Epic Destinies as a Favor unlock at the same level as Favored Soul. It takes alot of questing to get to that level of Total Favor and you'll probably be around lvl 20 then anyway to start taking part. It's an achievable goal, but one you would need to work toward.

I'm agreeable with content being something that you pay for access to. But Epic Destinies add a bit too much functionality. It steps deeply into the realm of characters not being as good as other characters because they didn't pay for some other additional perk.

Keep in mind, that it could be part of the marketing plan to release Epic Destinies as a paid option for the first six months/year and then to switch to a system where it is available to all. This also gives the devs time to continue to see how this all works in live for several months before they package it and ship it to a wider audience.

Postumus
06-26-2012, 02:42 PM
meh, just think of them as paid classes that you can't unlock with favor
if you want them, buy them~

I agree. This is my perspective on them.

Cyr
06-26-2012, 02:47 PM
I agree. This is my perspective on them.

Yeah, I view this as not so much what the person playing them can build as what others grouping with them will suffer from.

That is very different then someone not being able to build a monk, druid, artificer, or FvS.

Basically it means there are people who can level to 25, but will automatically be gimps. That is not a fun grouping environment and a trap for those players who frankly are likely to be turned off from the game (not many enjoy being the gimp in a party that is dragging everyone else down).

valarx
06-26-2012, 03:52 PM
Yeah, I view this as not so much what the person playing them can build as what others grouping with them will suffer from.

That is very different then someone not being able to build a monk, druid, artificer, or FvS.

Basically it means there are people who can level to 25, but will automatically be gimps. That is not a fun grouping environment and a trap for those players who frankly are likely to be turned off from the game (not many enjoy being the gimp in a party that is dragging everyone else down).

This depends on if the devs build the dungeons to lvl 25 vanilla, or to lvl 25 ED. If the devs build to 25 vanilla, then the EDs just end up being icing on the cake.

However, it's really hard for the devs to ignore the EDs when building the difficulty of the dungeon. There's so many things to take into account (dps, damage mitigation, higher DCs, etc.) that EDs are going to be practically impossible to ignore when setting the difficulty of the dungeon.

So essentially, I agree with your post. Not having the ED could mean the difference in a character being useful, and that runs the risk of discouraging grouping with characters without EDs.

I'm ok with them being an option to purchase from the store using turbine points. What would be nice is to have more ways to earn turbine points. For instance, each game you participate in during Festivault gives you Turbine points (probably a set number for achieving set goals and only the first time you achieve that goal per character). Price breaks in the DDO store are nice, but I'd rather see more ways for free to play characters to earn points in game. The festivals are a nice way to do it since they are limited time only.

Ungood
06-26-2012, 04:56 PM
meh, just think of them as paid classes that you can't unlock with favor
if you want them, buy them~
I agree. This is my perspective on them.

Same here.

Phemt81
06-26-2012, 05:52 PM
Uhm?

Oh yes, if you want more beta testers, that is....

Chai
06-26-2012, 05:56 PM
You buy the expansion, you get the features listed in the expansion. There are alot of people on these forums who claimed that "Turbine will never get another red cent of my money ever again" in the past, and that was an easy statement to make when there was absolutely no incentive whatsoever to pay for specific features. Now that there is a HUGE incentive to do just that, I wonder how many of them have bought / will buy the epic destinies / expansion etc all quiet like then continue to harp that they will never give another red cent to Turbine - all the while they are tabbing back in to the game to play some more DDO after making said statement.

There are also a few people who were telling those of us who were making this same slippery slope argument when artificers were first pay only to shaddap and buy em already, now harping about destinies being pay only. It is as I predicted - they drew that line in a slightly different place than I did, and now that their line has been crossed, they are making the exact same argument I was making back then (when they were telling us all it wasnt such a big deal and to stop complaining).

Hilarious. For the slippery slope argument to be valid in the eyes of those who disagree with said argument, all one has to do is wait until the sheist rolls further down the slope impacting an issue that actually matters to those who disagreed in the past, and observe them jumping right on the same slippery slope bandwagon.

This discussion has already been had over and over again, and the majority lost that discussion, simply by focusing in too hard on the semantics of each single issue that was being complained about in the moment, rather than stepping back and observing the big picture aspect of what was actually happening. Now they want to jump on the bandwagon? Too late - that ship done sailed son.

P.S. +3 tomes are now a perminent fixture in the DDO store, for all those who bantered "ZOMG YRU complaining its only temporary!!!" :p

wax_on_wax_off
06-26-2012, 07:39 PM
You buy the expansion, you get the features listed in the expansion. There are alot of people on these forums who claimed that "Turbine will never get another red cent of my money ever again" in the past, and that was an easy statement to make when there was absolutely no incentive whatsoever to pay for specific features. Now that there is a HUGE incentive to do just that, I wonder how many of them have bought / will buy the epic destinies / expansion etc all quiet like then continue to harp that they will never give another red cent to Turbine - all the while they are tabbing back in to the game to play some more DDO after making said statement.

There are also a few people who were telling those of us who were making this same slippery slope argument when artificers were first pay only to shaddap and buy em already, now harping about destinies being pay only. It is as I predicted - they drew that line in a slightly different place than I did, and now that their line has been crossed, they are making the exact same argument I was making back then (when they were telling us all it wasnt such a big deal and to stop complaining).

Hilarious. For the slippery slope argument to be valid in the eyes of those who disagree with said argument, all one has to do is wait until the sheist rolls further down the slope impacting an issue that actually matters to those who disagreed in the past, and observe them jumping right on the same slippery slope bandwagon.

This discussion has already been had over and over again, and the majority lost that discussion, simply by focusing in too hard on the semantics of each single issue that was being complained about in the moment, rather than stepping back and observing the big picture aspect of what was actually happening. Now they want to jump on the bandwagon? Too late - that ship done sailed son.

P.S. +3 tomes are now a perminent fixture in the DDO store, for all those who bantered "ZOMG YRU complaining its only temporary!!!" :p

Good post, if EDs were unlockable or partially accessible at some time in the future then I'd have no issue, even if that access was tied to FR favour for instance.

That was my approach with Artificer, I didn't mind that it wasn't accessible to me day 1, once it was I went and unlocked it.

I'm not specifically against spending money, I just enjoy the challenge of not doing so, if I have to buy EDs with TP that I've earned from TR'ing then I will though I'd prefer to spend that on adventure packs instead.

I've never been against +3 tomes being in the store honestly, the difference that +1 to a stat makes over a +2 tome is fairly minimal and Turbine needs their revenue which I get.

EDs are like +20 tomes being in the store without any possibility of accessing them any other way, even by signing up to VIP. There's no slope here.

Make it free to VIP (even free to VIPs who sign up after U14?) or make it accessible fully or partially in game possibly requiring a favour unlock (even if that favour is FR favour so not accessible until U14 or U15 with another pack).

Vellrad
06-26-2012, 07:51 PM
Content are quests, challenges, wilderness areas, and to lesser extent, races and classes.

New, mandatory character developement system is not content.
Its purely P2W.
You either got it, or GTFO from endgame.
Not a good think.

Its almost the same like having only 1st level, racial and class premium levels for everyone, and more feats only to those who purchased feat acces.
Or if everyone could choose only few feats, and better one would be for vips or owner of feat pack only.

(I hope devs are not reading to implement this idea to game :O)

Ungood
06-26-2012, 07:52 PM
You buy the expansion, you get the features listed in the expansion. There are alot of people on these forums who claimed that "Turbine will never get another red cent of my money ever again" in the past, and that was an easy statement to make when there was absolutely no incentive whatsoever to pay for specific features. Now that there is a HUGE incentive to do just that, I wonder how many of them have bought / will buy the epic destinies / expansion etc all quiet like then continue to harp that they will never give another red cent to Turbine - all the while they are tabbing back in to the game to play some more DDO after making said statement.

There are also a few people who were telling those of us who were making this same slippery slope argument when artificers were first pay only to shaddap and buy em already, now harping about destinies being pay only. It is as I predicted - they drew that line in a slightly different place than I did, and now that their line has been crossed, they are making the exact same argument I was making back then (when they were telling us all it wasnt such a big deal and to stop complaining).

Hilarious. For the slippery slope argument to be valid in the eyes of those who disagree with said argument, all one has to do is wait until the sheist rolls further down the slope impacting an issue that actually matters to those who disagreed in the past, and observe them jumping right on the same slippery slope bandwagon.

This discussion has already been had over and over again, and the majority lost that discussion, simply by focusing in too hard on the semantics of each single issue that was being complained about in the moment, rather than stepping back and observing the big picture aspect of what was actually happening. Now they want to jump on the bandwagon? Too late - that ship done sailed son.

P.S. +3 tomes are now a perminent fixture in the DDO store, for all those who bantered "ZOMG YRU complaining its only temporary!!!" :p

Actually I have to admit I am having quite the opposite effect to tell the truth.

I have been moving more and more into the "get over it" camp then the outraged camp. It's like watching a ball game and seeing that the team you want to win did not even place, so while the game itself is still a fun distraction, you don't earnestly have an investment into who wins.

Meh, If people want to vent, then that is what they will do. If they want to scream in outrage, so be it.

My advice is simple, but neigh impossible, I suggest: Stop worrying, log in, play, and try to have some fun. If it becomes a game you don't want to play anymore, then leave and find a game that suits your needs more.

sirgog
06-26-2012, 08:05 PM
IMO they should make 3 of the destinies F2P.

Draconic Incarnation, Fury of the Wild and Exalted Angel. Covers most build archetypes (except defensive melee it has something decent if not optimal for most builds). You couldn't swap from one destiny to another as none of those connect.

Then people that buy destinies could get their build archetype's optimal destiny and work on Twists.

Delssar
06-26-2012, 08:30 PM
So every other character creation option in the game is either accessible via VIP status or unlocking in the game (races, classes etc).

Is Epic Destinies the first time that DDO's gone full pay2access character creation regardless of VIP status or anything? Seems like a bit of a kick in the teeth for VIPs (unless VIPs do get it?)

I suggest that partial access to Epic Destinies be granted to characters based on their build status.
Adventurer (28 pt): No access to EDs
Champion (32 pt): Can go to level 1 in an ED
Hero (34 pt): Can go to level 2 in an ED
Legendary (36 pt): Can go to level 3 in an ED
Completionist: Can go to level 4 in an ED

This is pretty conservative but it could be considered a bare minimum for the illusion of consistency.

Flame away :)

/not signed

Totally against it

As someone who doesnt TR. and runs alts that would be a horrible mechanic

Vellrad
06-26-2012, 08:57 PM
/not signed

Totally against it

As someone who doesnt TR. and runs alts that would be a horrible mechanic

So, nothing for you a little something for everyone else is a big no-no, because no?

Merlin-ator
06-26-2012, 10:38 PM
If you have a problem with it, TR when you hit 20. Do what you did before: Get a group, get the dungeon tokens, trade for a wood heart, and go to Kruz. I don't think the difference between a 21 with destiny and a 21 without destiny will be all that huge, but if you need to, you can bank levels 21-25. You will have a hard time running Epic Elite raids, so stick to Epic Normal or Epic Casual and you'll be fine. If you still don't like it, wait until August to grind the TP and buy it.

wax_on_wax_off
06-26-2012, 11:29 PM
If you have a problem with it, TR when you hit 20. Do what you did before: Get a group, get the dungeon tokens, trade for a wood heart, and go to Kruz. I don't think the difference between a 21 with destiny and a 21 without destiny will be all that huge, but if you need to, you can bank levels 21-25. You will have a hard time running Epic Elite raids, so stick to Epic Normal or Epic Casual and you'll be fine. If you still don't like it, wait until August to grind the TP and buy it.

That's exactly what I'm going to do but I'll miss raiding with my homies until then.


My advice is simple, but neigh impossible, I suggest: Stop worrying, log in, play, and try to have some fun. If it becomes a game you don't want to play anymore, then leave and find a game that suits your needs more.

Not impossible, I've got tokens to TR so I'm just going to keep doing that for the foreseeable future until I have a place in end game content again (when I get EDs).


IMO they should make 3 of the destinies F2P.

Draconic Incarnation, Fury of the Wild and Exalted Angel. Covers most build archetypes (except defensive melee it has something decent if not optimal for most builds). You couldn't swap from one destiny to another as none of those connect.

Then people that buy destinies could get their build archetype's optimal destiny and work on Twists.

Nice idea, I'd be totally fine with something like this. Perhaps even something associated with other purchases.
Purchased Monk --> you can go to level 3 or 4 in Grandmaster of Flowers
Purchased Warforged --> you can to level 3 or 4 in Legendary Dreadnought
Unlocked/Purchased Favoured Soul --> You can go to level 3 or 4 in Exalted Angel (so no freeby on that one)
Unlocked/Purchased Artificer --> You can go to level 3 or 4 in ... wait, no ED for this class!
Unlocked/Purchased Druid (in U15) --> You can go to level 3 or 4 in Fury of the Wild

Which just leaves Dragonic Incarnation as a single freeby?

ZeebaNeighba
06-26-2012, 11:39 PM
It seems right now that Epic Destinies are the only pay to win stuff in the game, as in, you need it or you will be gimped. Sure, there is practically no free quests, but most f2p players spend tp to get a few packs. I put 10 bucks into the game a couple weeks after I started to go premium and other than buying the standard expansion I haven't dropped another cent. But before I bought the X-Pack, I lived off Shavarath, epic sands, the house cannith quests, reaver's refuge and Vale for end game content. And it was enough. And if I didn't spend the points, I would have dropped one of the packs for a short time. But basically, f2p players can get enough packs to have enough quests to satisfy them, at least for me.

So they have enough content to get by. They won't be gimped by any means, just because they are missing packs or races. Sure, maybe their archer would be better off as half elf instead of pure elf, but they can still do very well as a pure elf. They get 9 classes and with enough packs can get favor for up to 2 more, so they aren't missing out on much there. It's not like groups are looking for those 4 p2p classes all the time. They don't really have a harder time joining groups because they don't own those classes. Most groups are fine with a cleric instead of a favored soul, or a rogue to handle the traps instead of an arti. Assuming they have a couple high level packs (or absurdly high crafting levels), they should have decent gear. Maybe it's not what they had in mind but it gets the job done. Maybe that archer was looking for the abbot bow, well there are other bows too, they aren't a huge loss in dps. There are greensteels, the challenge earth bow, the bow of sinew, the silver longbow, etc, and most of them are almost as good as an abbot bow.
tldr, they won't be gimped by not having a particular adventure pack, given that they have a couple things, enough to keep the game from becoming repetitve at high levels.

But epic destinies are different. They provide a huge bonus to a character. There is no alternative for them. If you can't get a certain piece of gear in one slot because you don't own the adventure pack, you will do almost as well with another (unless you are making some gimmick build like a charisma specced pally using epic elyd edges and dynastic falcatas, but most builds aren't that reliant on a certain piece of equipment). But if you miss out on an epic destiny, you miss out on all those extra enhancements. They don't just get to choose a slightly weaker version, they get nothing. And those ED's actually give very noticeable buffs to a toon's ability.

I think there should be 2-5 free epic destinies, and then we can pay for another set of destinies that might match our character better. At least f2p characters aren't a burden to their party when they hit level 25. They still have something to pay for, but f2p players won't be dragging a group down by not having their destiny.

Chai
06-26-2012, 11:45 PM
EDs are like +20 tomes being in the store without any possibility of accessing them any other way, even by signing up to VIP. There's no slope here.



There is a slope there. It started with +2 tomes being in the store "temporarily" a few years ago and most people telling the few who saw the big picture (what this could lead to in a few years time) to can it and accept it for what it is. The slope lead to this, through many many tiers of slightly higher benefit items distributed over a long enough period of time where no one noticed or cared, and if we think its going to stop there, we are kidding ourselves.

The entire technicality of being able to earn it in game as a rare item or some such is mere semantics. I understand peoples opinions on whether its tolerable or not is based on those semantics, but that fact doesnt really change how much power people can literally buy with real money.

When the vocal minority of game players who are the loud majority on the forums are telling everyone else to stop complaining and posting the "shut up and take my money" meme in threads discussing P2W, how can we expect Turbine to not do just that? Now that we realize what this all turned into, I bet those discussions (more like pile ons) would not happen much the same way they did years ago if this was all known.

Xynot2
06-27-2012, 12:39 AM
/half signed.

While I agree that Turbine's gotta make money, they are separating the community.

Without Borking things up and giving away too much, F2P could have access to a single destiny and class specific. No twist of fate, no branching, no choice... one preselected destiny. And make it the simplest one. Tease em into buying it just like they did with the first three drow quests and the lv16 stones. You didnt think they gave those stones away without the marketing in mind did you?

Drow Quests: Lv 16
Lv Stones: Lv16
Watching the F2P peeps start buying stuff: Priceless

That was an AWESOME marketing campaign. So why not do it with Destinies?


There is a slope there. It started with +2 tomes being in the store "temporarily"
Horse pucky. There's no slope. And if Im wrong and there is a slope, it's the one from the player's wallet to Turbine's revenue stream. I think it would be perfectly fine for Turbine to put EVERYTHING into the DDO store. I would Still quest for stuff. I'm not a rich man so I wouldn't be buying everything. I do know that I would buy the ToD ring and the torc cuz I am SO tired of having the wrong toon when they drop. But I would still quest for everything else.

Delssar
06-27-2012, 01:04 AM
So, nothing for you a little something for everyone else is a big no-no, because no?

I actually payed for the $80 xpac, why should something a lot of us paid for now be given out free OR exluded from us if we dont TR?

MsEricka
06-27-2012, 01:09 AM
/not signed

You do NOT require epic destinies to play the game. Not getting it will not diminish your gameplay in any way.

ZeebaNeighba
06-27-2012, 01:21 AM
You do NOT require epic destinies to play the game. Not getting it will not diminish your gameplay in any way.IMO they are much stronger than any piece of loot from a p2p pack or p2p race/class compared to the next best option. F2p players can pick a slightly worse class than what they want, but the class they pick will have benefits too. Not the same with epic destinies, if you don't pay, you don't get squat. Which makes not having them MUCH more harmful to gameplay then not buying X race or pack/item etc.

Fomori
06-27-2012, 01:26 AM
I think they borked their free VIP or pay FTP mindset when they introduced the expansion.

Since there is stuff in the expansions that you simply have to pay for I dont see a problem with the destinies not being unlocked another way. Its part of the MMO industry (expansions) that DDO has so far kept out of, but now its here so we'll have to deal with that.

What DDO does let you do is pay for them with TP. While you do have to pay for them somehow, time or money, I dont see it as P2W. Technically even going VIP would be P2W since you are "paying a monthly fee". However I dont think that it is, not should anyone think that the expansion content is P2W because you finally had to purchase new content.

SardaofChaos
06-27-2012, 01:29 AM
As someone who bought the collector's edition, I would have absolutely no issue if a couple of the destinies were made f2p(someone listed above 3 that cover the majority of build types). Making them all free, however, would cheapen the point of having bought any of the preorders, as the epic destinies were a huge part of the package.

HOWEVER. Were they to, a year from now, make all epic destinies free, I would also have no issue. I would consider that part of my purchase as the right to play them for a year before those who didn't pay.

gerardIII
06-27-2012, 01:35 AM
You could use the same logic for epic levels... yet people can level to 25

The main issue here is the current system will scale horribly. Add another 5 levels and the gap just keeps widening between those with EDs and those without.

You lost your Copper Sigil?

wax_on_wax_off
06-27-2012, 01:37 AM
As someone who bought the collector's edition, I would have absolutely no issue if a couple of the destinies were made f2p(someone listed above 3 that cover the majority of build types). Making them all free, however, would cheapen the point of having bought any of the preorders, as the epic destinies were a huge part of the package.

HOWEVER. Were they to, a year from now, make all epic destinies free, I would also have no issue. I would consider that part of my purchase as the right to play them for a year before those who didn't pay.

I'm totally fine with this, make a couple of them accessible either fully or partially so that you can enjoy your purchase more by not worrying if party members are going to drag you down because they don't have access to any ED and the huge power boost that is inherent. No need to make level 5 available (3-4 is enough), no need to make the all available (3-5 is enough), no need to make twists available.

Compare a level 25 Rogue/Shadowdancer with a level 25 Rogue (no semantics about epic levels thanks). The ED build is straight away in front 21 SA/hit before anything else that SD offers, that's like putting a +40 strength tome in the store. The ED build is in front 9 assassinate DC (iirc) which is like a +18 int tome.

Really, if you don't have access to EDs then there isn't any option but to stay away from any challenging end game content unless you're content to be carried through.

Fomori
06-27-2012, 01:37 AM
IMO they are much stronger than any piece of loot from a p2p pack or p2p race/class compared to the next best option. F2p players can pick a slightly worse class than what they want, but the class they pick will have benefits too. Not the same with epic destinies, if you don't pay, you don't get squat. Which makes not having them MUCH more harmful to gameplay then not buying X race or pack/item etc.
I'm not sure which logical fallacy you are making here, but there is one.

Just because they are better than loot, does not make them required.
Just because a character without them is not optimal, does not make them required.
The phrase "much more harmful" is too subjective to base a conclusion on and needs to be defined.

sephiroth1084
06-27-2012, 01:38 AM
IMO they should make 3 of the destinies F2P.

Draconic Incarnation, Fury of the Wild and Exalted Angel. Covers most build archetypes (except defensive melee it has something decent if not optimal for most builds). You couldn't swap from one destiny to another as none of those connect.

Then people that buy destinies could get their build archetype's optimal destiny and work on Twists.
Start this as a Suggestion thread so I can /sign it!

ZeebaNeighba
06-27-2012, 02:08 AM
Just because they are better than loot, does not make them required.
Just because a character without them is not optimal, does not make them required.The devs will probably scale up high level quests because they assume most of DDO will have epic destinies. If they scale the quests down, then the ones that have destinies can breeze through.
So a character without destinies would be "suboptimal." Let's take a look at some of the destiny effects. I'll rip off wax on wax off here and look at shadow dancer.
A character who simply took full levels in shadow dancer (not looking at any of the specific enhancements, just the autogrants) would obtain 6d6 sneak attack damage and evasion. People are willing to give up 2 class levels to take rogue and get evasion and 1d6 sneak attack damage and the ability to put more into skills. So let's say that 2 rogue levels went p2p, and anyone with them suddenly became a level 23 instead of a 25 and couldn't level back up. Except some quests are scaled for level 25s. And that's not anywhere near all the shadowdancer effects. It gives much more than 2 levels of rogue. Such as all the extra sneak attack damage, the ability to effectively get a +6 tome in dex or int (and the fact that +6 tomes do not exist because they are too powerful shows something there), or get an implosion clicky that can basically be activated every 2 minutes. These epic destinies are giving out better bonuses than heroic class levels. Epic quests are supposed to be for level 20s, but a hypothetical level 18 with full shadowdancer could do just as well as the 20 with 2 rogue levels.

wax_on_wax_off
06-27-2012, 03:10 AM
I'm not sure which logical fallacy you are making here, but there is one.

Just because they are better than loot, does not make them required.
Just because a character without them is not optimal, does not make them required.
The phrase "much more harmful" is too subjective to base a conclusion on and needs to be defined.

They are required, the power difference between a level 25 character with an ED and twists vs one without is like comparing a level 20 commoner with a level 20 wizard ...

Almost everything in the store so far as been perfectly fine to go without. The only thing in the store that is vaguely comparable is SP pots, if you're willing to continue spending money on SP pots then you can have significantly more power than your counterpart but that is restricted by being an ongoing cost. Perhaps at apt comparison is a once off buy to have unlimited SP pots? Possibly a comparable level of power increase involved ...

Skavenaps
06-27-2012, 03:19 AM
free ED? no way.

You can unlock it free on the game. Its called TP by favor. Each 100, you have 25 turbine points.

Dont want to pay? Then play till you eyes bleed and you will get it free.

nuff said.

Vellrad
06-27-2012, 05:09 AM
free ED? no way.

You can unlock it free on the game. Its called TP by favor. Each 100, you have 25 turbine points.

Dont want to pay? Then play till you eyes bleed and you will get it free.

nuff said.

Show me exactly in which location of the store they're located NOW and I'll use my points.

Phemt81
06-27-2012, 05:09 AM
If it becomes a game you don't want to play anymore, then leave and find a game that suits your needs more.

The actual problem is that mmorpgs are constantly changing. So if someone liked this game and spent over nine thousand bucks a day to play it, now is entitled to complain if the game is completely different and he feels he wasted his money.

Just my opinion.

I am not currently playing but some friends say: "all my gear is useless, i farmed it in 3-6 months of playing and is useless, also my build is gimped now, sigh".

I can see their point, they have one.

Skavenaps
06-27-2012, 05:10 AM
Show me exactly in which location of the store they're located NOW and I'll use my points.

same place where's the druid its!!

Wait till agust.

Vellrad
06-27-2012, 05:17 AM
same place where's the druid its!!

Wait till agust.

Thats the big part of problem.
No character progress for 1 1/2 month.

Skavenaps
06-27-2012, 05:26 AM
Thats the big part of problem.
No character progress for 1 1/2 month.

same happend with the arti. no big deal.

use that time to do something else, or, just level to 25.

Vellrad
06-27-2012, 05:30 AM
same happend with the arti. no big deal.

use that time to do something else, or, just level to 25.

What level 25 gives except 50HP and +2 saves?

Skavenaps
06-27-2012, 05:38 AM
What level 25 gives except 50HP and +2 saves?

lol at the question

are you going to answer with random comments all the time? you need to level to 25 anyway, so. If you are mad cause you didnt bough the exp when you was able, im sorry. Now you need to wait few weeks to use that turbine points. live with it.

im out.

Chai
06-27-2012, 06:31 AM
/not signed

You do NOT require epic destinies to play the game. Not getting it will not diminish your gameplay in any way.

ROFL. Really? So a level 25 with full destinies is just as good of an addition to a party as a level 25 with none?

It WILL affect contribution, and possibly the outcome of the quest, when the toon doesnt have those abilities.

Chai
06-27-2012, 06:35 AM
Horse pucky. There's no slope. And if Im wrong and there is a slope, it's the one from the player's wallet to Turbine's revenue stream. I think it would be perfectly fine for Turbine to put EVERYTHING into the DDO store. I would Still quest for stuff. I'm not a rich man so I wouldn't be buying everything. I do know that I would buy the ToD ring and the torc cuz I am SO tired of having the wrong toon when they drop. But I would still quest for everything else.

Theres no slope? There are hundreds of items in the store where people can increase their power for real money, added over a long enough period of time for the majority of forumites to take the bait, heh. Had they enacted this all at the same time and gave us every single P2W item in the store the day the DDO store came out rather than trickeling it in over years of time, youd see it for sure.

Youd be the only one questing, in your above example. Games like that (and there are games like that) get boring real quick, and turn their entire populace over on a yearly basis.

Mastikator
06-27-2012, 06:49 AM
/not signed

It's unfair to those who didn't pay to give it for free to those who did.

Xynot2
06-27-2012, 07:16 AM
The actual problem is that mmorpgs are constantly changing. So if someone liked this game and spent over nine thousand bucks a day to play it, now is entitled to complain if the game is completely different and he feels he wasted his money.

Just my opinion.
I can see their point, they have one.

Bears repeating.

Xynot2
06-27-2012, 07:32 AM
Theres no slope? There are hundreds of items in the store where people can increase their power for real money, added over a long enough period of time for the majority of forumites to take the bait, heh. Had they enacted this all at the same time and gave us every single P2W item in the store the day the DDO store came out rather than trickeling it in over years of time, youd see it for sure.

Youd be the only one questing, in your above example. Games like that (and there are games like that) get boring real quick, and turn their entire populace over on a yearly basis.

You're making the assumption that everyone would pay when they can get it free. P2W it a myth in games like DDO. You only have P2W in browser war games like Evony. I could agree if these items unbalanced PvP but DDO isnt a PvP game. What I'm about to say is going to sopund like a flame but it isn't. It's a representation of what everyone who makes the P2W arguement sounds like. *Im jealous cause I had to quest for it and all he had to do is buy it and he still sux*

I dont know how valid the information is about Turbine having to bring WB in because they were bleeding money, but if that is true, I'm all for anything that will keep Turbine solvent. Put it ALL in the DDO store. +5 tomes even.

Ungood
06-27-2012, 07:36 AM
Theres no slope?

Really.

There is No Slope (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=373169).

Xynot2
06-27-2012, 07:44 AM
Really.

There is No Slope (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=373169).

I fail to see a slope in that post. That guy nearly had completionist FREE. Which is exactly MY point. Some will buy everything, some will buy some things and some will buy nothing. There is no P2W in DDO so there's no slope. Sell everything in the store. There is the odd OCD guy who will buy everything, get bored and then leave. But we have his money now!

Chai
06-27-2012, 07:46 AM
You're making the assumption that everyone would pay when they can get it free. P2W it a myth in games like DDO. You only have P2W in browser war games like Evony. I could agree if these items unbalanced PvP but DDO isnt a PvP game. What I'm about to say is going to sopund like a flame but it isn't. It's a representation of what everyone who makes the P2W arguement sounds like. *Im jealous cause I had to quest for it and all he had to do is buy it and he still sux*

I dont know how valid the information is about Turbine having to bring WB in because they were bleeding money, but if that is true, I'm all for anything that will keep Turbine solvent. Put it ALL in the DDO store. +5 tomes even.

P2W is the reality of this game as well as many other. You just fell for the trap hook line and sinker, and continue to do so as the slope gets steeper. There is no jealousy involved at all, just observation of and reporting of fact.

My opinion is that the more P2W a game gets, the less fun it gets. Its a matter of degree and not a matter of absolutes.

Chai
06-27-2012, 07:55 AM
Really.

There is No Slope (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=373169).

Cute, you have one player who earned it all free, which is not relevant to the slippery slope argument whatsoever. As I stated before, having an earn in game option is semantics and nothing more. It doesnt change the fact that people can pay to have toons with far greater power than they could without doing so in a far shorter timeframe. Each time they increase that power slightly over time the players rejoice. Its a genius marketing tactic, because had they given us all this at once, no one would argue against the fact that its P2W.

When I see these threads moaning about people showing up to raids without a clue posted by the same people who argue that P2W doesnt exist, I grin and point this out, and hilarity ensues.

Xynot2
06-27-2012, 07:59 AM
P2W is the reality of this game as well as many other. You just fell for the trap hook line and sinker, and continue to do so as the slope gets steeper. There is no jealousy involved at all, just observation of and reporting of fact.

My opinion is that the more P2W a game gets, the less fun it gets. Its a matter of degree and not a matter of absolutes.

I have 5 kids and 8 garndkids(so far). I have an average life, average income and plenty of things that need more attention than DDO(financially). You are speaking like some one who has a lot of money to waste on a game. Most do not. And unless the game is designed around PvP, there is no winning.

Yes there will be those who buy everything. Those are the guys who get single player games and look for every cheat code and then move on to the next game because there is no challenge. Then there's guys like me who are tired of #1 trying to find a group to do the quest I want to run #2 standing around waiting for it to fill and the worst of it, #3 having the item drop on the wrong toon after 4 years of running it and still not getting it and will finally put up the cash to buy it. If you think it would be boring to buy everything... dont. This is like the argument over BYOH and any other gamestyle choices out there. It's pointless. Everyone does things differently for different reason.

Putting up a teaser like the 3 Drow quests, giving out xp stones for free level up to that quest level so people will get the yearning to buy it is brilliant. So do the same with epic destinies. Have all but one path unavailable (one per class) and have there be no way to change it. Almost an autoselect. And tease em into buying it.

Chai
06-27-2012, 09:19 AM
I have 5 kids and 8 garndkids(so far). I have an average life, average income and plenty of things that need more attention than DDO(financially). You are speaking like some one who has a lot of money to waste on a game. Most do not. And unless the game is designed around PvP, there is no winning.

Its exactly the opposite actually, Im AGAINST pay to win, not for it. I am also middle class financially. My dog in this fight however, is not in the semantics about how much money one has or being jealous over easier gear acquisition. My irrefutable point is that more P2W lessens the quality of everyones play experience. Many here now are in agreement with me used to be the ones piling on in disagrement a few years ago when I predicted that exactly this would happen. Their viewpoints would change the minute something on the slippery slope impacted them negatively. Well looky what we have here....

Also, for the record, slang in the English language is not based on literal definitions. The term pay to win was never about winning even when it was first commonly used in the 1920s, it was about people being able to pay to advance in a fraction of the time someone who had to earn it from the ground up could.


Yes there will be those who buy everything. Those are the guys who get single player games and look for every cheat code and then move on to the next game because there is no challenge. Then there's guys like me who are tired of #1 trying to find a group to do the quest I want to run #2 standing around waiting for it to fill and the worst of it, #3 having the item drop on the wrong toon after 4 years of running it and still not getting it and will finally put up the cash to buy it. If you think it would be boring to buy everything... dont. This is like the argument over BYOH and any other gamestyle choices out there. It's pointless. Everyone does things differently for different reason.

That implication that if you dont want it to affect you then it wont, is false. It affects the quality of play in those around you. The more people can get stuff without having to earn it in game, the worse the average player becomes.

Again you fell for the trap hook line and sinker. You should be lobbying for increased drop rates or 50th run = choice of all possible loot, rather than defending pay to win by trying to deny its existance through rules lawyering literal definitions. Denial usually requires some sort of self justification, which you have now provided on more than one occasion.

Also note that many people here were making the same argument you are still trying to hold to now, only now that their threshold of tolerance has been crossed, their stance on the issue sounds just like mine does. The more P2W that enters this game, the more your stance will shrink quantity wise. Less and less people will share that opinion the more their thresholds are crossed, and they realize how it impacts the overall game.


Putting up a teaser like the 3 Drow quests, giving out xp stones for free level up to that quest level so people will get the yearning to buy it is brilliant. So do the same with epic destinies. Have all but one path unavailable (one per class) and have there be no way to change it. Almost an autoselect. And tease em into buying it.

There is enough of a teaser already. When players who dont have them are watching those who have them roflpwn their way through quests with the greatest of ease, while they are still putting down mediocre performance, the "im not giving Turbine another red cent" crowd will come around. Remember, many of these people are players who count quickdraw as more DPS on their spreadsheets because they can measure the time difference between activation of boosts and swinging weapons. If that amount of quantifiable performance is a pebble, epic destinies are the moon in regards to the level of impact they have on current endgame performance.

Leiton
06-27-2012, 10:20 AM
It's frankly absurd to think that Turbine would even consider expanding the "freebie" portion of the game as you describe. They run this game to make money, and as such will make as much of the game pay-to-access as they can get away with.

That said, it does greatly irritate me that virtually all level 21+ character growth is pay-to-access. I fully expect that many epic parties will demand that all members have epic destinies. Thus, those of us who didn't feel like dropping $30+ to access something we couldn't even get a look at will likely find ourselves facing ever-increasing difficulty finding groups for epic play, as those epic players that DID buy the expansion will begin treating all non-expansion epic characters as useless gimps. With that in mind, it makes repeat-TR'ing much more appealing, except for the possibility that epic tokens may now be harder to obtain without destiny access.

Quite simply, I fear that this latest bit of p2w may do more than make the game easier for those that pay - it may actually make the game HARDER for those that don't pay, particularly if some or all of the existing epics have had their difficulty tweaked in anticipation of destinies.

Xynot2
06-27-2012, 11:54 AM
Too much stuff

I know what P2W means. And what your not factoring in is that players who suck...always will. Even if they are able to buy everything. And when they get into an LFM and fail miserably(and they will), They go on people's black list. Good players are good players no matter what they have.

So realizing that, P2W is a jealousy thing. Who cares how the guy got it? I dont. I want to play DDO. Forever there have been posts in the forums about people who have stuff that's been removed from the game, BYOH LFMs, and a whole host of other slaps at what people have and how they play. Really? It has no effect on game quality. If I want what some one else has, I go get it myself. If I dont like the way they play, I dont play with them.

What I dont do is rant about how unfair, how wrong it is or they are, or game breaking it would be. You know what's game breaking? Putting out substandard expansion pacs that break stuff and ruin game play. Not putting everything for purchase in the DDO store. Petition for it to be expensive so you cant buy everything for 1 TP. But this is the same garbage that was ranted over about +2 tomes and now +3 and 4 tomes. As you can see from the result, it has no effect on the gameplay. And neither would releasing everything to the store.

And back to my original idea here, have 1destiny allowed for a F2P to a class no matter how many times they TR so they can at least be viable at 25. They cant twist of fate. They can only select the one. Almost like it's selected for them.

Vellrad
06-27-2012, 01:53 PM
I know what P2W means. And what your not factoring in is that players who suck...always will. Even if they are able to buy everything. And when they get into an LFM and fail miserably(and they will), They go on people's black list. Good players are good players no matter what they have.

So realizing that, P2W is a jealousy thing. Who cares how the guy got it? I dont. I want to play DDO. Forever there have been posts in the forums about people who have stuff that's been removed from the game, BYOH LFMs, and a whole host of other slaps at what people have and how they play. Really? It has no effect on game quality. If I want what some one else has, I go get it myself. If I dont like the way they play, I dont play with them.

What I dont do is rant about how unfair, how wrong it is or they are, or game breaking it would be. You know what's game breaking? Putting out substandard expansion pacs that break stuff and ruin game play. Not putting everything for purchase in the DDO store. Petition for it to be expensive so you cant buy everything for 1 TP. But this is the same garbage that was ranted over about +2 tomes and now +3 and 4 tomes. As you can see from the result, it has no effect on the gameplay. And neither would releasing everything to the store.



It starts to affect people, when suddenly everyone requires EDs to accept anyone to pug.

Ungood
06-27-2012, 04:27 PM
I fail to see a slope in that post. That guy nearly had completionist FREE. Which is exactly MY point. Some will buy everything, some will buy some things and some will buy nothing. There is no P2W in DDO so there's no slope.

That was my point. There is No Slope, no matter how much some people may say their is.


Cute, you have one player who earned it all free, which is not relevant to the slippery slope argument whatsoever. As I stated before, having an earn in game option is semantics and nothing more. It doesnt change the fact that people can pay to have toons with far greater power than they could without doing so in a far shorter timeframe. Each time they increase that power slightly over time the players rejoice. Its a genius marketing tactic, because had they given us all this at once, no one would argue against the fact that its P2W.

When I see these threads moaning about people showing up to raids without a clue posted by the same people who argue that P2W doesnt exist, I grin and point this out, and hilarity ensues.

Umm. I think you have that wrong. In my sampling, it is people who scream that the game has gone P2W and the people that scream about "noobs" showing up to raids unequipped are the same people.

Quite Ironic, how they say the game is P2W and yet they keep making a fuss about how no one but them is winning. :rolleyes:

Anyway.


I'm not specifically against spending money, I just enjoy the challenge of not doing so, if I have to buy EDs with TP that I've earned from TR'ing then I will though I'd prefer to spend that on adventure packs instead.

The fact that Turbine lets this exist, means their is no slope, no matter how much anyone wishes there was. Wax opts to not spend money, and in doing so, he plays the game at his speed and pace, it is what he enjoys. If you want to play the game in that manner, that is your choice, but, no matter how much anyone screams Pay to Win, someone has to pay for Wax here to play his game, and it seems he has opted to not be that person.

So, what do you expect Turbine to do? They are no Unicef, they are no some Humanitarian Organization, they need to make money, if that means they will put in my hand the best items, abilities, classes, and races in the game for a little cash so that Wax here has a game he can grind the next 10 months in search of, then, so be it, that cash is what gives Wax and I a game to play. So since I am paying his and my sub, I think he should thank me for Paying so we can "Win" and be happy Turbine puts out stuff that entices players enough to spend their cash to keep playing, otherwise, we both will lose an MMO to play.

SardaofChaos
06-27-2012, 04:44 PM
It starts to affect people, when suddenly everyone requires EDs to accept anyone to pug.

And how do you propose people find out whether or not someone has an ED?

Additionally, people made the same argument when HP became shown to the whole party. I have not been surprised by the absolute lack of being denied from parties for having "sub-par" hp.

Vellrad
06-27-2012, 05:26 PM
And how do you propose people find out whether or not someone has an ED?

Additionally, people made the same argument when HP became shown to the whole party. I have not been surprised by the absolute lack of being denied from parties for having "sub-par" hp.

Well, I don't know if EDs are shown anywhere, but:
1. Hirelings in the store are class levels/ED levels.
2. XP penatly is based on class level+ED levels, not class level+ commoner levels, so I bet there is some display somewhere.
3. Everyone can see me having less SP and spells not working.

BlackSteel
06-27-2012, 10:44 PM
/not signed

It's an expansion, not an update.

this

if this was a traditional MMO model noone would be complaining. Turbine is still a business, and it is a huge expansion, expecting it to be F2P accessible is ridiculous.

with that said, I do think they should go ahead and release the various parts of the expansion for purchase via TP. I know several people with thousands of TP stockpiled who wanted to use money they've already put into the game versus putting more into it.

if you want to farm TP via favor and grab the expansion sure go for it; but none of it should be unlocked via favor rewards. as thats a pretty crappy mechanic considering lots of people have near max favor toons that would just accumulate these bonuses as they are released. Unless they're new faction rewards, which you'd end up needing the new pack anyway

Chai
06-28-2012, 01:32 PM
Umm. I think you have that wrong. In my sampling, it is people who scream that the game has gone P2W and the people that scream about "noobs" showing up to raids unequipped are the same people.

Quite Ironic, how they say the game is P2W and yet they keep making a fuss about how no one but them is winning. :rolleyes:

Anyway.




Thank you thank you. In your attempt to disagree with me you literally reinforced the point I was making. P2W affects everyones play experience quality. Lock, stock, and two smoking barrels folks. Allowing people to take shortcuts rather than learn the game and then expecting people who show up to have a clue is what I was talking about. Equipment has nothing to do with it, skill and metagaming knowledge do. Equipment is the tool people use to hide their lack of metagaming knowledge and skill. Oh you can see my HP now? > con gear + high starting con + SFL > hey look I got lots'o HP. Im uber. Why are my arms swinging instead of the wand going off in the abbot ice room? Had everyone convinced I was HellaPro® at ice until this unfortunate debacle..../fail + on 11 peoples squelch lists. Ah well, still uber, have high HPs. P2W is the 2012 equivilent of people buying geared accounts off eBay in MMOs ~2004. It gives the appearance of knowledge, but not the actual knowledge. DDO is not a game that people can just muddle through while fooling everyone however. That lack of knowledge becomes apparent real quick, and cant be covered up by gear, and thus P2W contributes to the rift between vets and newer players.

Ungood
06-28-2012, 06:07 PM
Thank you thank you. In your attempt to disagree with me you literally reinforced the point I was making. P2W affects everyones play experience quality. Lock, stock, and two smoking barrels folks. Allowing people to take shortcuts rather than learn the game and then expecting people who show up to have a clue is what I was talking about. Equipment has nothing to do with it, skill and metagaming knowledge do. Equipment is the tool people use to hide their lack of metagaming knowledge and skill. Oh you can see my HP now? > con gear + high starting con + SFL > hey look I got lots'o HP. Im uber. Why are my arms swinging instead of the wand going off in the abbot ice room? Had everyone convinced I was HellaPro® at ice until this unfortunate debacle..../fail + on 11 peoples squelch lists. Ah well, still uber, have high HPs. P2W is the 2012 equivilent of people buying geared accounts off eBay in MMOs ~2004. It gives the appearance of knowledge, but not the actual knowledge. DDO is not a game that people can just muddle through while fooling everyone however. That lack of knowledge becomes apparent real quick, and cant be covered up by gear, and thus P2W contributes to the rift between vets and newer players.

Noobs making it to 20th is a common thing in DDO, showing up for Shroud with zero fort, and nothing that could break DR happned a long time ago, so, nothing has changed, there is no Slope, It's still not Pay2Win, no matter how many times you put that in your post.

Even if this goes totally bonkers with all kinds of stuff going on sale in the store, On the best day, the only thing that will happen is when a Noob shows up to Shroud, they may be able to toss some TP and get a decent Boss Beater, a heavy fort item, and enough STR to be somewhat useful mid quest. I can't see that as a bad thing.

Phemt81
06-29-2012, 08:35 AM
ROFL. Really? So a level 25 with full destinies is just as good of an addition to a party as a level 25 with none?

What? We can reach level 25 WITHOUT epic destinies?

The more i read the more confused i become :(

Ungood
06-29-2012, 11:10 AM
What? We can reach level 25 WITHOUT epic destinies?

The more i read the more confused i become :(

Yup.

The Epic levels, 21 - 25 are separate from the Destinies. The Destinies are like Enchantment lines.

The Levels themselves are just Generic "Epic" levels, they do not have any class affiliation attached to them.

vilhazarog
07-02-2012, 07:48 PM
Well I haven't been playing DDO a while, been playing Skyrim mostly. But I noticed that the new stuff was released so I downloaded everything and logged on to check it out. For some dumb reason I had assumed that Epic levels included all this cool new Epic Destiny stuff, so I went over to the guy to get my Destiny, and I was confused, because it wouldn't let me pick one. Poking around I think maybe I have to unlock it in the store, I'm not happy about that, but I check to see if the TP is reasonable... no, can't unlock it in the store. So finally I figure out I have to buy the entire expansion to get it, and it'll be in the store later.

Well, for me, this is Turbine telling me to quit and try again next release.

If they'd given me at least one Destiny to play, I'd still be playing... and maybe if it was fun I'd have bought the new FR adventures so I'd have more level 20+ to play. Why would I play levels 21-25 without all the cool stuff? That's dumb. Is anyone doing this? Would anyone play Druid, if it was free, but came with no spells unless payed extra? I doubt it.

The only reason I played DDO was because of their F2P model. I've never played any other MMO. Do you know the first time they got my money? When they did away with the 'token' system and let you play all the way to level 20 without buying those bronze, silver, tokens. Their F2P model seemed really fair, where basically you just paid money if you wanted extra content or extra classes and races. Doesn't seem that fair now. I didn't expect to get Druid. I didn't expect the new content. But I did expect the new level cap. A gimped new level cap seems almost worst than not giving us one at all.

I'll come back next update. If EDs are unlockable, or not too much TP (like say.. 500) I might play for a while to unlock one and try it out... Otherwise, I'll move on to something a bit newer and shinier. No hard feelings, I got my money's worth til now.

Honestly I don't expect they will try and keep me though... I think they are making enough money from you guys that are willing to pay for this stuff. Wouldn't be surprised if the new enhancements require TP to unlock as well. Radiant servant? That's free... oh wait you want Tier 3?? That'll cost you!!

nebogloee
07-03-2012, 01:27 AM
It starts to affect people, when suddenly everyone requires EDs to accept anyone to pug.

Barring epic elite (where I would only recruit for from channel/list/guild) I will still accept the first 5 to apply. Epic hard is more fun without EDs anyways. A better player is always better than a bad one with better gear/stats. And the expansion can be bought/ground out piecemeal in a month if one so desires. I could see a single destiny with generic bonuses not having much of an effect on turbine's cash flow while quelling the f2p rage. For years f2p has had NO access to epic/raid gear without grinding or spending cash, what has changed now? EDs are just the new epic loot, especially when compared to the new actual epic loot. I remember a while back, as a premium player, having to wait for new content while VIP didn't have to, it was not pay 2 win because I could always grind out the TP or buy it, I just had to wait. As f2p, you could spend that time grinding out tp for august, or just buy it.

EDIT: We will have to wait and see it Turbine allows you to buy each destiny separate for a reasonable price when they hit the store in August, if they do, then it will be wins for all.

EpiKagEMO
07-04-2012, 04:05 PM
seems interesting enough
/sign

Saravis
07-04-2012, 04:14 PM
I made this point in another thread and I'll make it in this one.

Epic Destinies is nothing new to the DDO model.
You can't get to 20 without obtaining packs from the DDO store.
You can get packs by either favor grinding for TP or by shelling out cash.
The epic destinies will work the same way.

With that said, I have nothing against them giving me free stuff.

Phemt81
07-04-2012, 07:20 PM
Yup.

The Epic levels, 21 - 25 are separate from the Destinies. The Destinies are like Enchantment lines.

The Levels themselves are just Generic "Epic" levels, they do not have any class affiliation attached to them.

Thanks bro! :D

You get real improvements for your char as you level to 21 and so on, without the destinies enhances unlocked?

Ungood
07-04-2012, 08:15 PM
Thanks bro! :D

You get real improvements for your char as you level to 21 and so on, without the destinies enhances unlocked?

Not really, they are generic levels, I think D10 HP, Feat at level 21 and 24, and some Spell Points (not sure how that works), stat increase at 24, Nothing really grand to be honest.

And your character is not really, 21st level, it is 20 (class levels) and 1 Epic Level. IE: 20 Barb / 5 Epic

Davelfus
07-04-2012, 10:04 PM
And how do you propose people find out whether or not someone has an ED?

1. Select the toon
2. Examine
3. ???
4. Profit

Phemt81
07-05-2012, 03:55 AM
Not really, they are generic levels, I think D10 HP, Feat at level 21 and 24, and some Spell Points (not sure how that works), stat increase at 24, Nothing really grand to be honest.

And your character is not really, 21st level, it is 20 (class levels) and 1 Epic Level. IE: 20 Barb / 5 Epic

Thank a lot again.

If i level to 25 and then buy ED, do i get all the enhancements i would have been able to use in the past or gotta make new xp to use it?

Dendrix
07-05-2012, 10:58 AM
1000tp for 1st ED access.

+500tp for each destiny access thereafter

1000, 1500, 2000, 2500 etc

bigolbear
07-05-2012, 11:29 AM
IMO they should make 3 of the destinies F2P.

Draconic Incarnation, Fury of the Wild and Exalted Angel. Covers most build archetypes (except defensive melee it has something decent if not optimal for most builds). You couldn't swap from one destiny to another as none of those connect.

Then people that buy destinies could get their build archetype's optimal destiny and work on Twists.

Thats prety much along my thoguht porcess, although id argue one from each sphere.

If its the case that vip Arent going to get ED's for free then frankly VIPS its time to cancel your subs, its probably well past time to be frank.

Sidewaysgts86
07-07-2012, 03:00 AM
Thank a lot again.

If i level to 25 and then buy ED, do i get all the enhancements i would have been able to use in the past or gotta make new xp to use it?

Epic destinies are an entirely separate leveling system from your own character level.