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valarx
06-22-2012, 11:11 AM
Alright, so my primary point is that incapacitated/bleeding (between 0 and -9 hit points) is just too small of a window once you get beyond level 6 or so. Most mobs start hitting hard enough that 10 hit points doesn't make a huge difference, and your chance to end up incapacitated instead of outright dead is a matter of dumb luck. This also reduces the benefit of at least one feat (Diehard) and takes out the fun of being able to save someone on the brink of dying.

Here are my proposed changes:
1. Change the death point to: [Max Hit Points/10] (minimum 10)
2. Change the bleed damage to: [Max Hit Points/100] (rounded up, minimum 1)

So, for a meatier character with 500 hit points, they would be unconscious at 0hp and bleeding at a rate of 5hp/sec between -1 and -49. At -50 hp, they are dead.

So, here are my defenses/arguments for this change.
1. 'Tougher' characters will have a wider margin of becoming incapacitated and being able to be stabilized/brought back that increases in an intuitive way with level. Even squishy characters (say a caster with 200hp) still have an improvement over the current system, although they are more likely to be taken out in a single blow.
2. Diehard becomes useful even at higher levels, as your chance of hitting that bleeding margin increases and becomes a feat that high hp characters will definitely consider.
3. Since the bleed damage increases at roughly the same rate as the margin does, you still get roughly 9 saves between unconscious and dead to stabilize.
4. Any healing at all (even 1 hp) should still stabilize a character. I don't see the additional healing to bring them back to above 0 as a huge burden on healers. They're likely already specced out to bring characters around their level up by 25%, 50%, or even 100% of their hit points.

And one other idea, just to throw out there:
Improved Diehard (feat): prerequisites: Diehard, Increases your bleeding range to 20% of your max hit points.

No concerns on the number of saves there, as having the Diehard feat means you auto-stabilize anyway.

Habreno
06-22-2012, 11:23 AM
Alright, so my primary point is that incapacitated/bleeding (between 0 and -9 hit points) is just too small of a window once you get beyond level 6 or so. Most mobs start hitting hard enough that 10 hit points doesn't make a huge difference, and your chance to end up incapacitated instead of outright dead is a matter of dumb luck. This also reduces the benefit of at least one feat (Diehard) and takes out the fun of being able to save someone on the brink of dying.

Here are my proposed changes:
1. Change the death point to: [Max Hit Points/10] (minimum 10)
2. Change the bleed damage to: [Max Hit Points/100] (rounded up, minimum 1)

So, for a meatier character with 500 hit points, they would be unconscious at 0hp and bleeding at a rate of 5hp/sec between -1 and -49. At -50 hp, they are dead.

So, here are my defenses/arguments for this change.
1. 'Tougher' characters will have a wider margin of becoming incapacitated and being able to be stabilized/brought back that increases in an intuitive way with level. Even squishy characters (say a caster with 200hp) still have an improvement over the current system, although they are more likely to be taken out in a single blow.
2. Diehard becomes useful even at higher levels, as your chance of hitting that bleeding margin increases and becomes a feat that high hp characters will definitely consider.
3. Since the bleed damage increases at roughly the same rate as the margin does, you still get roughly 9 saves between unconscious and dead to stabilize.
4. Any healing at all (even 1 hp) should still stabilize a character. I don't see the additional healing to bring them back to above 0 as a huge burden on healers. They're likely already specced out to bring characters around their level up by 25%, 50%, or even 100% of their hit points.

And one other idea, just to throw out there:
Improved Diehard (feat): prerequisites: Diehard, Increases your bleeding range to 20% of your max hit points.

No concerns on the number of saves there, as having the Diehard feat means you auto-stabilize anyway.


Clever. However, I would make it so that the game uses the greater of either -10 HP or HP/10 to determine incapicated range.

Also, if this change were to go into effect, Divine Intervention would need a serious change. As it is, I believe it heals between 10 and 49 HP (though I often see myself pop up with high 20's to low 30's and if this were to go into effect it would be needing a change to be putting you at 10% of your maximum HP (which is dangerous, but still better than current incarnation) and thus be reliant only on your HP and not your incap number.

Uska
06-22-2012, 11:47 AM
No thanks I think its fine how it is we already have had a couple complaining that the count down to -10 is to long and I dont want to wait to -50 or -70. Current mechanic is just fine to give a chance in the rare chances that your are dropped without being killed.

Bennum
06-22-2012, 12:37 PM
I like the idea and believe it would be an improvement for any character /death or release remain for those who want to die faster

Dagolar
06-22-2012, 12:56 PM
Alright, so my primary point is that incapacitated/bleeding (between 0 and -9 hit points) is just too small of a window once you get beyond level 6 or so. Most mobs start hitting hard enough that 10 hit points doesn't make a huge difference, and your chance to end up incapacitated instead of outright dead is a matter of dumb luck. This also reduces the benefit of at least one feat (Diehard) and takes out the fun of being able to save someone on the brink of dying.

Here are my proposed changes:
1. Change the death point to: [Max Hit Points/10] (minimum 10)
2. Change the bleed damage to: [Max Hit Points/100] (rounded up, minimum 1)

So, for a meatier character with 500 hit points, they would be unconscious at 0hp and bleeding at a rate of 5hp/sec between -1 and -49. At -50 hp, they are dead.

So, here are my defenses/arguments for this change.
1. 'Tougher' characters will have a wider margin of becoming incapacitated and being able to be stabilized/brought back that increases in an intuitive way with level. Even squishy characters (say a caster with 200hp) still have an improvement over the current system, although they are more likely to be taken out in a single blow.
2. Diehard becomes useful even at higher levels, as your chance of hitting that bleeding margin increases and becomes a feat that high hp characters will definitely consider.
3. Since the bleed damage increases at roughly the same rate as the margin does, you still get roughly 9 saves between unconscious and dead to stabilize.
4. Any healing at all (even 1 hp) should still stabilize a character. I don't see the additional healing to bring them back to above 0 as a huge burden on healers. They're likely already specced out to bring characters around their level up by 25%, 50%, or even 100% of their hit points.

And one other idea, just to throw out there:
Improved Diehard (feat): prerequisites: Diehard, Increases your bleeding range to 20% of your max hit points.

No concerns on the number of saves there, as having the Diehard feat means you auto-stabilize anyway.

It also needs a (stablize if roll (your constitution or less, if constitution > 10)) element as well.
/signed


No thanks I think its fine how it is we already have had a couple complaining that the count down to -10 is to long and I dont want to wait to -50 or -70. Current mechanic is just fine to give a chance in the rare chances that your are dropped without being killed.


I like the idea and believe it would be an improvement for any character /death or release remain for those who want to die faster

/death needs to seriously be changed- split into /death, and /release, even. It's too awkward combining the two into a single command.

However, yes. With that tweak, there'd be no reason whatsoever to complain about the scenario, and the proposal would only be positive to ability options and gameplay.

Zenako
06-22-2012, 01:25 PM
Nice concept and a way to keep the "down but bleeding" concept viable thru more of the gameplay. Frankly however, the need for this is mitigated by a few factors. Once you are taking large chunks of damage routinely, you have also reached the level range where raise dead is available, so groups are not so often stymied by this. When solo that is another matter entirely. There are a number of effects and spells that are based on the -10 MAX in the current game and they would need to be altered to remain viable as well.

With the upcoming combat changes and damage mitigation you may well see a reduction in those heavy hits that take one from healthy and alive to a red named corpse/ghost. That serves to reduce the need as well.

In old versions of P&P D&D we used to have a simple CONSTITUTION limit to how negative one could go, so that 8 CON caster had far less wiggle room than the 18 CON Barbarian did. Using a CON metric might be easier with some game mechanics since the maximum value would be less that 10% of HP for most characters, seldom getting out of the 20's. That would allow current spells and other effects that trigger upon certain conditions to remain basically unchanged, but add some room for extra damage capacity before death for the most hardy of souls.

Chai
06-22-2012, 01:38 PM
The whole idea is to not get to the point where this even matters in the first place. :p

Its like the old rogue cheat death capstone. You mean I stayed pure so I can get back up after I die, which is something I am trying to prevent anyhow?

valarx
06-22-2012, 02:50 PM
Clever. However, I would make it so that the game uses the greater of either -10 HP or HP/10 to determine incapicated range.

:) I addressed that in the OP, note the (minimum 10) next to the specification on bleed range.


Also, if this change were to go into effect, Divine Intervention would need a serious change. As it is, I believe it heals between 10 and 49 HP (though I often see myself pop up with high 20's to low 30's and if this were to go into effect it would be needing a change to be putting you at 10% of your maximum HP (which is dangerous, but still better than current incarnation) and thus be reliant only on your HP and not your incap number.

Yeah, that would definitely need a rework, nice catch. It seems reasonable that Divine Intervention just puts you at 10% of max HP. Isn't that how most res spells work anyway?

valarx
06-22-2012, 02:51 PM
No thanks I think its fine how it is we already have had a couple complaining that the count down to -10 is to long and I dont want to wait to -50 or -70. Current mechanic is just fine to give a chance in the rare chances that your are dropped without being killed.

It doesn't increase the amount of time you have to wait one bit. The increased bleed damage means you only get 9 ticks even if you start at -1 and are going to -100. Exact same amount of time as you would have taken with the old method.

AZgreentea
06-22-2012, 02:57 PM
I like the idea, though I think it should be based on your CON mod instead. Your CON score defines your overall heartiness and ability to take a hit more than your overall HP's do. Maybe something like a bleed rate equal to your con score, and a bleeding/death range equal to your Con mod X5.

So someone with 28 CON would bleed at a rate of 7 HP, and have a range of 0-35.

oskar581
06-22-2012, 04:00 PM
I like the idea, though I think it should be based on your CON mod instead. Your CON score defines your overall heartiness and ability to take a hit more than your overall HP's do. Maybe something like a bleed rate equal to your con score, and a bleeding/death range equal to your Con mod X5.

So someone with 28 CON would bleed at a rate of 7 HP, and have a range of 0-35.

what if CON score was the -# so when you go down you are bleeding out your Con that would make it the ranges for incap higher for those that are hardy, then if you stable you could heal you CON mod per round till you get up at 1 hp, or 1/2 Con mod.

i.e. 26 CON level 20 fighter takes a blast that knocks him down to -15 he'd have 11 "ticks" to stable but it doesn't matter as he has Diehard so he starts healing +8 for 2 rounds, if that is a little fast it could be 1/2 con mod or +4 hp for 5 rounds of healing. Then if you had lower Con score let's say a 16 that would still be a -6 increase on the Death's Door/Incapacitated rule and you would heal at +3 or 1.5 rounded up to +2 per round.

Issues might arise if you had an 11 or lower Con Score unless you make minimum healed +1 hp and Elves then dump stated Con would die even faster, silly elves.

valarx
06-22-2012, 04:30 PM
Nice concept and a way to keep the "down but bleeding" concept viable thru more of the gameplay. Frankly however, the need for this is mitigated by a few factors. Once you are taking large chunks of damage routinely, you have also reached the level range where raise dead is available, so groups are not so often stymied by this. When solo that is another matter entirely. There are a number of effects and spells that are based on the -10 MAX in the current game and they would need to be altered to remain viable as well.

There are some major advantages to being 'down but now dead'. Here are just a few:
1. You don't take damage to your gear.
2. You don't lose the bonus XP for no deaths.
3. Other characters can use the little used healing kits and a Heal skill to stabilize you.
4. Other characters can use healing (lay on hands, wand of cure minor) to stabilize you and get you back up.
5. Area heals from clerics will get you back up and in the fight (think about raids where mass heal is being spammed).

If you're dead you're dependent on someone with the Raise Dead spell, one of the rare raise clickies, a spirit cake (too expensive), or someone with high enough UMD to use raise scrolls.


With the upcoming combat changes and damage mitigation you may well see a reduction in those heavy hits that take one from healthy and alive to a red named corpse/ghost. That serves to reduce the need as well.

The new damage mitigation isn't across the board, just for physical attacks. There will still be tons of sources of damage that ignore it, and those are some of the most spikey numbers in the game (elemental spells for instance).


In old versions of P&P D&D we used to have a simple CONSTITUTION limit to how negative one could go, so that 8 CON caster had far less wiggle room than the 18 CON Barbarian did. Using a CON metric might be easier with some game mechanics since the maximum value would be less that 10% of HP for most characters, seldom getting out of the 20's. That would allow current spells and other effects that trigger upon certain conditions to remain basically unchanged, but add some room for extra damage capacity before death for the most hardy of souls.

I thought about Con as a base for this, but I like the idea of characters being able to improve their range without having to build for Con. There are several HP items out there, that can be slotted in for a few more points of bleed range, and they are usable by everyone. Con is already factored in in the sense that by giving extra hit points, it also increases the range.

valarx
06-22-2012, 04:35 PM
what if CON score was the -# so when you go down you are bleeding out your Con that would make it the ranges for incap higher for those that are hardy, then if you stable you could heal you CON mod per round till you get up at 1 hp, or 1/2 Con mod.

i.e. 26 CON level 20 fighter takes a blast that knocks him down to -15 he'd have 11 "ticks" to stable but it doesn't matter as he has Diehard so he starts healing +8 for 2 rounds, if that is a little fast it could be 1/2 con mod or +4 hp for 5 rounds of healing. Then if you had lower Con score let's say a 16 that would still be a -6 increase on the Death's Door/Incapacitated rule and you would heal at +3 or 1.5 rounded up to +2 per round.

Issues might arise if you had an 11 or lower Con Score unless you make minimum healed +1 hp and Elves then dump stated Con would die even faster, silly elves.

Yeah, that's the problem. Some characters just aren't going to have higher than a 12-18 Con. Con increases at a much slower rate than hit points as everyone gets increased hit points every level. So it is a guaranteed ramp for all characters across the board.

Also, any Con impacting effects are going to be much more detrimental if the range is based off of Con (poison, disease, spells).

Keep in mind, Con IS used as a primary factor as Con = hit points which will affect your range.

valarx
06-22-2012, 04:38 PM
I like the idea, though I think it should be based on your CON mod instead. Your CON score defines your overall heartiness and ability to take a hit more than your overall HP's do. Maybe something like a bleed rate equal to your con score, and a bleeding/death range equal to your Con mod X5.

So someone with 28 CON would bleed at a rate of 7 HP, and have a range of 0-35.

It's easy for me to tell what my hit points are. They are right there up front on my display. It's hard for me to get at my current Con score. I have to go to a secondary menu for that. In addition to the other reasons I've supplied for using HP I wanted to keep the system simple, not introduce another table or scale that needed to be referenced.

valarx
06-22-2012, 04:41 PM
The whole idea is to not get to the point where this even matters in the first place. :p

Its like the old rogue cheat death capstone. You mean I stayed pure so I can get back up after I die, which is something I am trying to prevent anyhow?

That's the idea. :) It's not the practice though. I have yet to go a week without poofing into a soulstone at some point. Maybe I just like to play a little loose canon and see what I can get away with/what I can break. And given the spread of characters I tend to play, there's a very obvious difference in bleeding state between low level characters and high level characters.

I totally agree on the rogue cheat death. Which is why I took the OTHER capstone. ;)

Merlin-ator
06-22-2012, 05:14 PM
/signed

Tshober
06-22-2012, 05:46 PM
I like it.

/signed

Enoach
06-22-2012, 06:05 PM
The only thing wrong with the 0 to -9 Incapacitated is how they "Fixed It" for Pale Masters in Undead form.

Yes, it sucks when that monster decides to poke you once more to make sure your dead. Or your party mates decide to fight on top of you.

Also it is generally Rare that at higher levels Incapacitated should even be entered.

Everyone has a 10% chance of stabilizing and can have up to 10 potential rolls before they bleed out and die.

leave this mechanic as it is, there is no need to complicate it.

valarx
06-22-2012, 08:30 PM
Everyone has a 10% chance of stabilizing and can have up to 10 potential rolls before they bleed out and die.


Check the math again on my proposal. It offers the same number of chances to stabilize. It just increases the hit point buffer you can do it in.

Enoach
06-23-2012, 03:23 PM
Check the math again on my proposal. It offers the same number of chances to stabilize. It just increases the hit point buffer you can do it in.

I was just pointing out everyone has the same buffer as it should be. Your proposal gives those with Higher Hit Points a greater margin and leaves out that they already had a bigger margin in the first place.

The current system is fair as it stands and shouldn't be changed

Uska
06-24-2012, 05:29 AM
I was just pointing out everyone has the same buffer as it should be. Your proposal gives those with Higher Hit Points a greater margin and leaves out that they already had a bigger margin in the first place.

The current system is fair as it stands and shouldn't be changed

This

Alrik_Fassbauer
06-25-2012, 05:15 AM
An additional chat window message in red for health = lower than 10 % or so would be nice - or one exclamation mark message like used in those Wold Messages.

Rubix
06-25-2012, 05:28 AM
/Signed

Especially like the CON based ideas.

EpiKagEMO
06-26-2012, 12:17 AM
If that takes place, the system definetly needs a new way of being stabalized. I mean from even -50 Hp... save at 49... Now add healing curse at low levels with newbies without remove curse spell/pots...

valarx
06-26-2012, 02:13 PM
I was just pointing out everyone has the same buffer as it should be. Your proposal gives those with Higher Hit Points a greater margin and leaves out that they already had a bigger margin in the first place.

The current system is fair as it stands and shouldn't be changed

The error in your logic is that at higher levels, the margin doesn't make a difference. 10 hp just isn't enough to make a visibile difference in higher level content. Everyone goes from 'I'm up!' to 'I'm dead!' immediately. And in the rare cases where you do end up incapacitated, the next time a trash mob breathes in your general direction, you're dead. Ultimately, it's like we don't even have an incapacitated state beyond a certain level. My proposal fixes that so that at least we still keep the mechanic at higher levels.

Do I think those with higher hit points should have larger margins? Of course. Do I think that everyone should have the same incapacitated margin. No. And here are my reasons:

1. You picked the class that you are playing. Melee classes are meant to be tougher in combat, and specialty/caster classes are meant to be weaker/easier to kill. If you want to change that, you'd need to first address the number of hit points each class gets per level.
2. You picked how much you put into Con. I'm pretty sure that stat is secondary or tertiary for most builds. Having a low Con score in DDO is close to being completely useless. There are also plenty of items to adjust Con.
3. You picked the items you are wearing. There are also several items that grant a permanent boost to your hp. It's not much, but it is there.

I don't see that everyone needs to have the same buffer and that it 'isn't fair' if others have a higher buffer than you. They chose the class, put in the points, and wore the items to get there. DDO remains a game about choice.

And in the end, you'd end up with a better incapacitated range regardless (unless you happen to have a character with less that 110 hp at high level).

valarx
06-26-2012, 02:17 PM
If that takes place, the system definetly needs a new way of being stabalized. I mean from even -50 Hp... save at 49... Now add healing curse at low levels with newbies without remove curse spell/pots...

There are three ways I know of being stabilized:

1. Diehard feat (auto-stabilize)
2. Any healing effect (will stabilize you in addition to providing the healing)
3. Healing Kits (do people use these?)

There may be some others that I've missed, but those are them.

As a side note, one thing I used to run quite a bit was Mantle of the Worldshaper for its 1/min regen of 1 hp. If you happened to fall into incapacitated, there was a chance that the effect would go off and you would auto-stabilize.

Flavilandile
06-27-2012, 02:33 AM
/signed.

Coming from Rolemaster ( PnP ) where a given hit can make you bleed up to 12hp/round ( and you can accumulate bleeding wounds ) even when not uncounscious I agree with the idea.

Now I'm going to be the bad guy...

/not signed.

From the D&D ( PnP ) standpoint the -10 is a hard limit that has been here for ages... ( it's there in all the (A)D&D versions that I remember playing... either as a core rule or as an option everybody used ).

It's one of the things that makes D&D, like the THAC0, the AC, the memorized spells and the 6 Stats.

Seeing that disappear too would put us further away from the original D&D.

ssgcmwatson
06-27-2012, 11:31 AM
I like the idea of having it CON based rather than max HP based.

How about something easy to figure: you die when you reach the negative of your CON score?

valarx
06-28-2012, 12:53 PM
/signed.

Coming from Rolemaster ( PnP ) where a given hit can make you bleed up to 12hp/round ( and you can accumulate bleeding wounds ) even when not uncounscious I agree with the idea.

Now I'm going to be the bad guy...


I know that I was seeing slicing damage (damage post-combat) for thirty-something per tick in the new Epic areas.



/not signed.

From the D&D ( PnP ) standpoint the -10 is a hard limit that has been here for ages... ( it's there in all the (A)D&D versions that I remember playing... either as a core rule or as an option everybody used ).

It's one of the things that makes D&D, like the THAC0, the AC, the memorized spells and the 6 Stats.

Seeing that disappear too would put us further away from the original D&D.

This is one thing that I'm always torn on. I do like the nostalgia of the game being close to the PnP version. But I also understand that PnP doesn't translate well to an MMO. They're two entirely different creatures. I'm actually more OK with the mechanics of things changing to work in the MMO-verse as long as they keep the lore in place.