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View Full Version : The poison change is just dumb and annoying



Ape_Man
06-22-2012, 12:23 AM
It really doesn't serve any purpose in making the game any more challenging or difficult. We simply have to drink pots more often, that's the only affect. it's little more than a nuissance adding no real value to the game.

Suggestion: revert back to the old way, this change is silly.

Barazon
06-22-2012, 12:58 AM
But I'm sure that their market research shows that, with this change, returning players on their monks and warforged will spend an average of $2 more in the DDO Store on potions before they quit the game in disgust!

t0r012
06-22-2012, 12:59 AM
Don't know if I agree.
On one hand I've got a couple monks who are supposed to be immune as one of their defining class features and a couple of toasters and that is supposed to be one of the races defining features.

On the other I see the pattern developing. First it was the fort changes previously where you need greater than 100% to avoid having it bypassed. Now it's poision and diseases.
Now it isn't just be x race or x class or slot one item when you know poision or disease could come from a mob or trap.

-----
The more I think about it the more I actually like the idea. Removing our blanket immunities means there are more threats than direct damage. A bit more challenge and threat from mobs is better than bloating the hit points.
Something else to worry about rather than complete immunity to everything that doesn't do direct damage.
Kinda like those Cha damage spiders and arcane oozes in Von2. Stuff that is tough to defend against but bring a refreshing change of pace and challenge.

KillEveryone
06-22-2012, 01:06 AM
It isn't that bad. Kind of annoying but isn't too hateful.

If they changed it back though, the green dragon breath wouldn't be very effective. We'd all be immune to it. Changing it to the system they have allows them to make that breath weapon a actual weapon(haven't checked it out so I don't know how effective it actually it, but at least it can do something.)

In the old system, there wasn't any real need to have poison in the game. It was just a joke, especially since we could easily get an immunity. It really needed to be adjusted to be more than a nuisance(not saying it is any better, but there is at least potential.)

psi0nix
06-22-2012, 01:28 AM
I just want to know the explanation for a construct getting "poisoned" ....

how is that even possible.

Sidewaysgts86
06-22-2012, 01:49 AM
I just want to know the explanation for a construct getting "poisoned" ....

how is that even possible.

Living construct. Magical poison.

Nuff said. Im fine iwth hte change and agree/like it for previously mentioned reasonings. Having such easy immunity to things makes them laughable. Im down for having actual "Threats" in the game that are more than just sheer hp-damage.

parvo
06-22-2012, 05:50 AM
It really doesn't serve any purpose in making the game any more challenging or difficult. We simply have to drink pots more often, that's the only affect. it's little more than a nuissance adding no real value to the game.

Suggestion: revert back to the old way, this change is silly.

If by old way you mean OLD WAY, I agree. Poison, disease, curse, blindness... All those things were more fun when they were permenant until cured. The current way is lame and should be eliminated as it has zero impact other than potential haven for bugs. The proposed way is simply dev churn. Poison doesn't need to be complicated to work well. It worked well the OLD WAY.

parvo
06-22-2012, 05:56 AM
Living construct. Magical poison.

Nuff said. Im fine iwth hte change and agree/like it for previously mentioned reasonings. Having such easy immunity to things makes them laughable. Im down for having actual "Threats" in the game that are more than just sheer hp-damage.

No, it's not enough said. What is the threat you are talking about? Poison that works on half the population now is zero impact. Poison that works on all the population in the future is still zero impact. It's basic arithmetic. 1*0=0 2*0=0. I am also "down" with having actual threats in the game that are more than just sheer hp-damage. The old poison used to be that way. Just put it back. Poison, disease, curse, blindness, enfeeblement.... They should all be permanent until cured.

zwiebelring
06-22-2012, 06:34 AM
Classes/Races with according immunity should remain immune. Items granting class features should be nerfed to encourage playing that class/race and/or multiclass for that particular benefit.

But nerfing all immunities will nerf those classes and races as well, so an all out change of immunities is silly. Let class and race features stay as it is now, nerf items as you like.

That'll be my wish.

PNellesen
06-22-2012, 08:59 AM
It isn't that bad. Kind of annoying but isn't too hateful.

If they changed it back though, the green dragon breath wouldn't be very effective. We'd all be immune to it. Changing it to the system they have allows them to make that breath weapon a actual weapon(haven't checked it out so I don't know how effective it actually it, but at least it can do something.)

In my experience that Dragon poison was pretty rough; not an insta-kill, but it did some serious damage. Definitely makes you want to avoid the front-end as much as possible ;)

I'm still on the fence about some of the immunity changes. Kind of upset that my Triple-neg Greensteel goggles have lost much of their desirability (at least we're getting Greensteel Decon too :) ), but it does open up some new threats now that have been irrelevant for as long as I've been playing, at least once you got your immunity items.

Seventoe
06-22-2012, 09:20 AM
I'm at peace with it. Many people feel like the racial bonus to poison saves is a terrible consolation prize to the immunity we had, and I kind of felt like that too.

Then I fought a couple of the green dragons on my warforged sorc. It was slow going 'cause he's an earth savant. Dealing with the poison was definitely something new for him. But that bonus to saves felt pretty freaking crucial to me. It wasn't like "I should be totally immune to that awesome beast in front of me," it was "Thank goodness I get a bonus!" Also, "Yikes, I gotta buy some poison pots." It seemed like a terrific step in the right direction in game design to me.

Urist
06-22-2012, 09:30 AM
I just want to know the explanation for a construct getting "poisoned" ....

how is that even possible.
Most Warforged are partly wood, and trees can be both poisoned and diseased, AFAIK.

eris2323
06-22-2012, 09:33 AM
Most Warforged are partly wood, and trees can be both poisoned and diseased, AFAIK.

And since you can explain that, would you mind explaining how Undead get poisoned?

EDIT to included;

20th level wizard pale master I CAUGHT THE FLU AND DIED THE END.

Ape_Man
06-22-2012, 09:35 AM
If by old way you mean OLD WAY, I agree. Poison, disease, curse, blindness... All those things were more fun when they were permenant until cured. The current way is lame and should be eliminated as it has zero impact other than potential haven for bugs. The proposed way is simply dev churn. Poison doesn't need to be complicated to work well. It worked well the OLD WAY.

No it didn't, all it did was teach n00bs to carry pots. Those effects were NEVER a threat to any vet who knew better.

Ape_Man
06-22-2012, 09:37 AM
It isn't that bad. Kind of annoying but isn't too hateful.

If they changed it back though, the green dragon breath wouldn't be very effective. We'd all be immune to it. Changing it to the system they have allows them to make that breath weapon a actual weapon(haven't checked it out so I don't know how effective it actually it, but at least it can do something.)

In the old system, there wasn't any real need to have poison in the game. It was just a joke, especially since we could easily get an immunity. It really needed to be adjusted to be more than a nuisance(not saying it is any better, but there is at least potential.)

In second edition D&D at least Green Dragon breath was a chlorine gas that burned you similar to acid.

As long a Neutralize Poison pots are available via vendors poison will never be more than annoying at the worst for any player who isn't to lazy to drink a pot.

Jaid314
06-22-2012, 09:45 AM
well, it all depends on how you look at it.

we *could* just have all the effects that the devs feel is essential to making an enemy function work exactly like the spinner of shadows' poison, such that even if you're immune to poison, you're not immune to the poisons that matter. personally, i'd rather just let a reasonably decent fortitude save get buffed to the point where you're much immune to the poisons that don't matter, and where you can also get your fortitude save high enough to be immune to the poisons that *do* matter.

because seriously, from the perspective of "we need to make poison a threat again", plan B would be to just have immunities not work on the stuff that you really care about it working on. getting a stacking large bonus to saves is a definite improvement over that.

zwiebelring
06-22-2012, 09:49 AM
What about giving item based bonuses but leave races and classes immune to anything with poison category. Viewed from a groups perspective the one with granted immunity is a good asset for tasks involving taking damage from e. g. Spinner of Shadows.

parvo
06-22-2012, 05:20 PM
No it didn't, all it did was teach n00bs to carry pots. Those effects were NEVER a threat to any vet who knew better.

But mindless sheep never bought potions. Instead they followed the lead sheep to the forums and cried about how they were poisoned, blind, cursed. Turbine being the kind mother who never wants to see her poor children want, supported the mindless sheep and dismissed the effects in short order. Now, we'll create a complicated system that still won't have any effect because it is temporary. Players will do the same thing they do now, ignore poison, curse, blindness, enfeeblement...

Ape_Man
06-22-2012, 05:34 PM
But mindless sheep never bought potions. Instead they followed the lead sheep to the forums and cried about how they were poisoned, blind, cursed. Turbine being the kind mother who never wants to see her poor children want, supported the mindless sheep and dismissed the effects in short order. Now, we'll create a complicated system that still won't have any effect because it is temporary. Players will do the same thing they do now, ignore poison, curse, blindness, enfeeblement...

You need to find better people to play with if that's your impression.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-22-2012, 06:40 PM
You need to find better people to play with if that's your impression.

The averge PUGer carries no pots, and has no idea how many game mechanics work. (nor seems to care :( )

There is a huge population in this game that would run through every quest pushing the attack button mindlessly if they could. (and do :( )
... which is not the D&D I want to play.

D&D is suppose to be way more than simple DPS and HP. (and heal me!)

There is suppose to be a variety of dangers that take a variety of methods to protect yourself from and to overcome.



I PUG alot. The average PUGer is an idiot. Even the "know it" ones.

They think Lesser Restore removes neg lvls.
They do not know how to remove Mummy Rot.

and they definately do not carry pots.

valarx
06-22-2012, 10:51 PM
Don't know if I agree.
On one hand I've got a couple monks who are supposed to be immune as one of their defining class features and a couple of toasters and that is supposed to be one of the races defining features.

On the other I see the pattern developing. First it was the fort changes previously where you need greater than 100% to avoid having it bypassed. Now it's poision and diseases.
Now it isn't just be x race or x class or slot one item when you know poision or disease could come from a mob or trap.

-----
The more I think about it the more I actually like the idea. Removing our blanket immunities means there are more threats than direct damage. A bit more challenge and threat from mobs is better than bloating the hit points.
Something else to worry about rather than complete immunity to everything that doesn't do direct damage.
Kinda like those Cha damage spiders and arcane oozes in Von2. Stuff that is tough to defend against but bring a refreshing change of pace and challenge.

Thank you for this perspective, and I couldn't agree more.

I think the changes will be good in the long term. In fact, I've been running without the immunities on a few characters to get a feel for what to expect.

Carkolda
06-23-2012, 01:19 AM
Thank you for this perspective, and I couldn't agree more.

I think the changes will be good in the long term. In fact, I've been running without the immunities on a few characters to get a feel for what to expect.

Except, y'know, their complete and utter deviation from Canon. This is all because drow use poison, and they don't want their precious new creations being rendered moderately useless against EPIC LEVEL CHARACTERS. That's what's being missed here. If you were level 1-10 or so, then yeah. I can see not having access to poison immunity. But we are talking about characters that go up against dragons, even deities, and we come through. But we can be felled by poison? ***? So not only does it deviate from RAW, but it also doesn't make any sense for such high-level characters to be taken down by something so simple.

valarx
06-23-2012, 10:51 AM
Except, y'know, their complete and utter deviation from Canon. This is all because drow use poison, and they don't want their precious new creations being rendered moderately useless against EPIC LEVEL CHARACTERS. That's what's being missed here. If you were level 1-10 or so, then yeah. I can see not having access to poison immunity. But we are talking about characters that go up against dragons, even deities, and we come through. But we can be felled by poison? ***? So not only does it deviate from RAW, but it also doesn't make any sense for such high-level characters to be taken down by something so simple.

In my testing I'm rarely 'taken down' by poisons/diseases. Rather, they increase the threat level of a situation, cause me to slow down a bit maybe to deal with them. It only takes an easily available potion or the forethought to have someone put remove poison/remove disease on you before you go into a particularly nasty situation.

In a PnP setting, loot is randomly generated or painstakingly crafted. It is highly unlikely for the entire party to have disease immunity/poison immunity items equipped. Because of the nature of DDO, it is relatively simple for everyone to have these items available to them. That is going against Canon.

Those Epic level characters are going against Epic level poisons (magical and supernatural ones). So yeah, it still makes sense that they work. A CR 23 spider is going to have a much higher save for its poison than a CR 10 spider. Step back into the sewers and your Epic level should breeze through without ever catching the filth fever though, because your saves should be high enough to auto-save against it every time.

Just think of poison/disease like another type of damage. In fact, poison is statted out on many weapons as a direct damage type (rather than an effect with a save). I wouldn't be surprised to see poison resist and poison protection in addition to poison ward.

Lagin
06-23-2012, 11:09 AM
The land of Forgotten Realms is different from Eberron.
We all know that.
The story line, and monsters (encounters) developed have poison and it's heightened effects as a base line.

As it can be a little over done, it makes sense.

What I'd like to see, is when we are back in Eberron, it stays as is.

This topic will be brought many times after monday Im sure.

Orratti
06-23-2012, 12:08 PM
Be thankful they didn't do worse. Poisons could have slowed you down tremendously by sickening you, caused unconsciousness, forced a series of save or die rolls. Pots could have been made to take time to work leaving several saves still to be made and stat or hp damage taken while waiting for them to take effect.

You may be correct. The change is silly. They didn't do enough to make poisons truly effective.

Krago
06-23-2012, 02:13 PM
No it didn't, all it did was teach n00bs to carry pots. Those effects were NEVER a threat to any vet who knew better.

Yes, but the OLD version of poison at least required an action by the player where as todays maladies do not require action as they will wear off over time, that is even more pointless.

Poison should be a DOT to the PCs, HP/sec, then we are getting somewhere with being poisoned is a threat.

Saravis
06-23-2012, 02:25 PM
There are a ton of debuffs in this game already that require an active response to eliminate; curses, slow, enfeeble, etc. I'm glad that the devs have gone this route, it demands more active attention on the part of the player, rather than just toss on an item and forget, which renders the debuff completely irrelevant.

Forgeborn
06-23-2012, 06:00 PM
And since you can explain that, would you mind explaining how Undead get poisoned?

EDIT to included;

20th level wizard pale master I CAUGHT THE FLU AND DIED THE END.

Bit late I guess... but read your pale master 'shrouds'...

You're not undead, you're fully alive, you're just shrouding yourself in negative energy and thereby taking on many traits and immunities an undead has. In the end Pale Masters are just as alive as 'average joe the human fighter'.

now, if they made you a 'true' undead (e.g. not having the choice of going in and out of form, just "you take the enhancement, you're now undead instead of alive, here's your benefits and drawbacks" then I'd agree. Though most PM's prolly wouldn't like that as an undead has a dash for a con score, meaning no modifier.

Ghoste
07-03-2012, 03:23 PM
But I'm sure that their market research shows that, with this change, returning players on their monks and warforged will spend an average of $2 more in the DDO Store on potions before they quit the game in disgust!This^^

Chai
07-03-2012, 04:13 PM
But I'm sure that their market research shows that, with this change, returning players on their monks and warforged will spend an average of $2 more in the DDO Store on potions before they quit the game in disgust!

More like:

But I'm sure that their market research shows that, with this change, returning players on their monks and warforged will spend an average of $2 more in the DDO Store on potions before they post on the forums about quitting the game in disgust, then tab back over to play some more DDO.

Each time a new update happens that brings changes to the game, quite a few people hit the forums threatening to quit and predicting mass exodus, but the same people are always present for the next update to partake in the same threats of leaving, and that mass exodus never occurs.

Chai
07-03-2012, 04:17 PM
now, if they made you a 'true' undead (e.g. not having the choice of going in and out of form, just "you take the enhancement, you're now undead instead of alive, here's your benefits and drawbacks" then I'd agree. Though most PM's prolly wouldn't like that as an undead has a dash for a con score, meaning no modifier.

It would also be hilarious when they get hit for 975 point searing light that hits everyone else for ~245. :p

Chai
07-03-2012, 04:20 PM
Yes, but the OLD version of poison at least required an action by the player where as todays maladies do not require action as they will wear off over time, that is even more pointless.

Poison should be a DOT to the PCs, HP/sec, then we are getting somewhere with being poisoned is a threat.

Some poisons in the game are DOTs to HP/second. They also stack up to 3 times and get more powerful per stack. I had a 3 stack spider poison DOT on my toon in spinner of shadows that was ticking for ~250 a shot.

Vellrad
07-03-2012, 04:21 PM
Living construct. Magical poison.

Nuff said. Im fine iwth hte change and agree/like it for previously mentioned reasonings. Having such easy immunity to things makes them laughable. Im down for having actual "Threats" in the game that are more than just sheer hp-damage.

Why does a wraith gets poison? Explain please, because its beyond my comprehension, of course except, "because I say so, change class or PrE, or suffer unhealable damage".



But mindless sheep never bought potions. Instead they followed the lead sheep to the forums and cried about how they were poisoned, blind, cursed. Turbine being the kind mother who never wants to see her poor children want, supported the mindless sheep and dismissed the effects in short order. Now, we'll create a complicated system that still won't have any effect because it is temporary. Players will do the same thing they do now, ignore poison, curse, blindness, enfeeblement...

Please, show me potion that removes ability damage from undead, and I'll give you 2 LDS.



Bit late I guess... but read your pale master 'shrouds'...

You're not undead, you're fully alive, you're just shrouding yourself in negative energy and thereby taking on many traits and immunities an undead has. In the end Pale Masters are just as alive as 'average joe the human fighter'.

now, if they made you a 'true' undead (e.g. not having the choice of going in and out of form, just "you take the enhancement, you're now undead instead of alive, here's your benefits and drawbacks" then I'd agree. Though most PM's prolly wouldn't like that as an undead has a dash for a con score, meaning no modifier.

"You're considered undead rather than your original type"

Wanted to make some comment, but its not worth infraction points.

Vellrad
07-03-2012, 04:24 PM
More like:

But I'm sure that their market research shows that, with this change, returning players on their monks and warforged will spend an average of $2 more in the DDO Store on potions before they post on the forums about quitting the game in disgust, then tab back over to play some more DDO.

Each time a new update happens that brings changes to the game, quite a few people hit the forums threatening to quit and predicting mass exodus, but the same people are always present for the next update to partake in the same threats of leaving, and that mass exodus never occurs.

More like:

But I'm sure that their market research shows that, with this change, returning players on their monks and warforged will spend an average of $2 more in the DDO Store on potions before they spend an average of $10 on half orc or different class.

Talias006
07-03-2012, 06:32 PM
And since you can explain that, would you mind explaining how Undead get poisoned?

EDIT to included;

20th level wizard pale master I CAUGHT THE FLU AND DIED THE END.


"You're considered undead rather than your original type"

Key word to remember is Considered.
You are not permanently that type of creature.

A point of reference to take in is when Warforged Druids use shapeshift into wolf or bear, they are considered living animals instead of their normal type and lose many of their living construct traits while in form.

If for some reason you became permanently Undead, then I would be more than happy to argue in your favor.
Since most of the things you are subject to are of Magical or even Supernatural (there is a difference) nature at the upper end of the game, then it stands to reason that many different types of creatures could become affected/infected.

If you are truly upset about a tier 3 Pale Master in form being subjected to disease, then perhaps splashing 2 Paladin wouldn't be a bad thing for you.
It is an option, and one that makes you completely immune to all 3 disease types.

***
As per the change to poison, I am glad that for once I haven't found a poison immunity item to put on my tier 3 Defender of Siberys, because that fight vs the Drow at the end of the first of the u13 quests made me glad for keeping Neutralize Poison up in my active spells.
I would have fallen prey to the insidious poison upon his blades like a few of my companions did, were I not able to stave off the effects of his poison for a minute at a time.

Forgeborn
07-08-2012, 12:34 AM
"You're considered undead rather than your original type"

Wanted to make some comment, but its not worth infraction points.

Yes, and a good deal off poisons and diseases also started working on those undead, your point is exactly? An undead is no longer flat out immune to all poisons and diseases, they can be affected. So the whole 'you are considered' argument holds no ground.
http://i46.tinypic.com/6q8s3q.jpg

those are 'filth fever' and a standard 'poison' spell if that matters. contagion/poison, as you can see them on the bars.

Zorth
07-08-2012, 12:38 AM
I used the enhancement of plus one to poison saves for the first time ever today.

Poison used to be a joke, but now it is something to consider when spending action points.

If we make the save then we don't have to drink a pot.

Ape_Man
07-08-2012, 12:52 AM
I used the enhancement of plus one to poison saves for the first time ever today.

Poison used to be a joke, but now it is something to consider when spending action points.

If we make the save then we don't have to drink a pot.

It's not something a friggin level 20 toon, who fights gods and devil generals in their own plane, should have to be bothered with.

ssgcmwatson
07-08-2012, 04:16 PM
In second edition D&D at least Green Dragon breath was a chlorine gas that burned you similar to acid.


Yup.... plenty of bases/alkalis that cause chemical burns.

Zorth
07-08-2012, 08:11 PM
It's not something a friggin level 20 toon, who fights gods and devil generals in their own plane, should have to be bothered with.

If we fight them on their own plane gods and devil generals are going to make sure they do not leave anything to chance.

If they die they die, they do not get a second chance. So They will throw their most powerful stuff at us.

Even They, ( gods and devil generals), save their best best attacks for last, for the resources , of the best of the best, they have are like ours. We save them for the best of times and so they do to.

Did you really think that a devil or god on their home plane is going to give up without bringing their best, (to the fight), to wipe us out! THis is their, "Last Stand", common!

fco-karatekid
07-08-2012, 08:27 PM
I was annoyed at the change, given I play monks and poison/disease immunity was a benefit I LOVED (free up inventory space, no need to micromanage them, etc).

For a while, I started drinking the potion IMMEDIATELY to avoid the stat damage.

Over the past two days, though; I have been running a new character through areas with lots of spiders, etc.

I decided to purposefully start leaving it alone (not drink) for the duration of its timer.

I found the only real difference now is the poison "hits" (shows up visually on effects icons) always and starts its timer vs. "hitting" and saving immediately as before. After the timer counts, down, my character's still saving easily 95% of the time.

She's lvl 13 now - time will tell if that secondary stat penalty ever starts kicking in.

1jazzz
07-08-2012, 10:20 PM
it's still much better than the PnP ver.

it's abit more annoying as we need to get pots or rather have the spell, but i like that they're getting closer to the PnP counter part.

mummy rot is back to it's annoying self which is fine

the only annoyance i have is pure neg GS accs
they only get +6 saves vs poison and disease

BOgre
07-08-2012, 10:30 PM
What bugs me most about poison/disease is that I bought Warforged based on:

DDOStore description-This purchase allows you to create new Warforged characters on any server. Warforged are sturdy creatures of living wood and metal and are immune to many dangers that plague the other races. Warforged start with higher Constitution and lower Wisdom and Charisma. This purchase allows you to create new Warforged characters on any server. FREE FOR VIPs!

Plus

Wiki description-
Racial Traits
+2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
Immune to Sleep, Hold Person, Energy Drained, Nauseated, Exhausted, Poison, Disease, and Paralyzed effects.

They took my money, then changed the product.

Kinda uncool.

Oh, and bought Monk for some of the same reasons... doh!

PsychoBlonde
07-08-2012, 11:59 PM
Bit late I guess... but read your pale master 'shrouds'...Though most PM's prolly wouldn't like that as an undead has a dash for a con score, meaning no modifier.

They get 12 hit points per hit die, though, and twice as many HD per CR increase as other monster races. Same dealio with constructs, which is why both groups get wizard base attack--if they didn't, they'd be hitting gods by the time they had enough HP to survive a single combat round with level 12 characters.

D&D is a very strange system.

PsychoBlonde
07-09-2012, 12:14 AM
One thing that I think should happen is that epic items with poison or disease immunity on them (either on the item or slotted in), should retain that old flat-out-immune.

And Green Dragon breath weapon is as follows:

Breath Weapon (Su): A green dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of corrosive (acid) gas.

If that's too similar to Black dragon for them (black dragons are supposed to breathe a LINE of acid instead of a cone) they could have just made it Disintegration/rust damage similar to, say, horrid wilting. Wouldn't THAT be nasty.

But if we're comparing things to PnP, I want beholders that merely SUPPRESS buffs instead of REMOVING them. I want enemy casters that RUN OUT OF SP. I want COUNTERSPELLING. (Which would be durn hilarious when mobs do it to casters, let me tell you.) I want mobs to fail concentration checks! I want negative levels that give you -1 like they're supposed to instead of -2! I want to be able to CLIMB ****! I want to have quests where EVERY SINGLE MOB is not a CR 2 levels higher than the quest! (A single CR-your-level is supposed to use up 1/5 of the resources of an ENTIRE. PARTY. of 5 characters. It should not even be POSSIBLE, short of egregious cheating and a lenient DM, that is, for a group of level 14 characters to take on a CR 28 like Lailat in Elite DQ1. Just not going to happen. She should look at them and blast them to dust.

Granted, not sure I want buffs that only last six seconds per level. So the whole "like PnP" thing is kinda moot.

I do sort of like it that I now know *** enemy casters were doing when they cast spells at me that didn't appear to do anything. Contagion and Poison, that's what. Over and over and over. I ran across a room of casters recently and I think I had 5 different diseases by the time I got out.

And I know people who don't even KNOW about that nasty poison Harry does in Shroud. WELL THEY DO NOW.

PsychoBlonde
07-09-2012, 12:40 AM
If we fight them on their own plane gods and devil generals are going to make sure they do not leave anything to chance.

Mm, maybe. Keep in mind a Marilith (CR 17) is a demonic general. And a horned devil like Suulomades is, in PnP, only a CR 16.

Gods in PnP were an entirely different kettle of fish--on their own plane they had pretty much unlimited power and were, basically, a Deus Ex Machina. Mere generals of the Hells and the Abyss did not compare.

Forgeborn
07-10-2012, 01:24 AM
They get 12 hit points per hit die, though, and twice as many HD per CR increase as other monster races. Same dealio with constructs, which is why both groups get wizard base attack--if they didn't, they'd be hitting gods by the time they had enough HP to survive a single combat round with level 12 characters.

D&D is a very strange system.

While in broad terms that's correct, you have to remember they're not using racial hit dice, they're using class HD (wizard, in this case, which as it's a PC class, is 1 cr/level), so they'd be getting the creature type traits, but not the 'undead class level' traits. (Otherwise, they'd also get 4+ int mod skills, instead of 2+ int mod a wizard gets. As they haven't taken any levels in 'undead', but in the wizard class. Same reason 'average joe the fighter' doesn't have 3/4th bab and a D8 HD)

Libris mortis, the book of undead (wizards of the coast 3.5 sourcebook) has information on playing undead, and the 3.5 monster manual has all the traits of an undead listed in the glossary, which I'll list below anyways.

undead, for what it matters: Linky to the SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Undead_Type)
*No Constitution score.
*Darkvision out to 60 feet.
*Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
*Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
*Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
*Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
*Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
*Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
*Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
*Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
*Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
*Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
*Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

Phidius
07-10-2012, 11:22 AM
Why does a wraith gets poison? Explain please, because its beyond my comprehension, of course except, "because I say so, change class or PrE, or suffer unhealable damage".




Please, show me potion that removes ability damage from undead, and I'll give you 2 LDS.
...

Do you mean "a potion that removes ability damage from a Pale Master in form", or "a potion that removes ability damage caused by an undead mob"?

'Cause I normally use pots of Lesser Restore to remove the Str/Con damage caused by undead... but my wizard chose the Archmage path instead of PM.

Vellrad
07-10-2012, 11:23 AM
Do you mean "a potion that removes ability damage from a Pale Master in form", or "a potion that removes ability damage caused by an undead mob"?

'Cause I normally use pots of Lesser Restore to remove the Str/Con damage caused by undead... but my wizard chose the Archmage path instead of PM.

The first.

No easy LDS for you :P

Ganolyn
07-10-2012, 12:01 PM
Poison and Disease Immunity should go back to what they were before. If they have mobs and bosses that are gimped due to this they should create a new class of poisons and diseases called "Exceptional" that bypass these wards and just be done with it.

Mr.Spark
07-11-2012, 01:04 PM
Honestly...I feel I am alright with this immunity shift...but it definitely needs to be fine tuned

1.) Race/Class resistances to poison/disease/etc. need to be able to stack with each other and items so that a warforged, if they really want to be 'immune', can go monk and have a proof item equipped to have a total of +30 fort save against poison/disease which better balances the whole thing out

2.) enemies should have to undergo the same nerfs as we do. Any blanket immunities we lose, they should lose as well. I'm sick of bosses being only vulnerable to being whacked with a stick instead of at the very least having to make a save vs your poison or disease. I wouldn't complain if they were +50 save vs the debilitating effects...but I want our powers to at least have a CHANCE at working

3.) There SHOULD be at least a few select epic items that grant complete immunity to poison/disease. You'd think a godly artifact could protect you from a common cold, right?

does anyone agree with any of the above at all?

Talias006
07-11-2012, 02:34 PM
I agree with 1 and 2, and here's how I see it.
They could key the bonuses in such a way:

Racial could be classified as Inherent, Untyped, or (Insert Race type here) (Poison/Disease) Resistance.
Class type bonuses could be listed under a fitting Class terminology (IE Monk = Calmness of Self), or Competence.
Item bonus could be listed as Enhancement, which is the most apt way to describe what a magical item does for you, it enhances your natural abilities.

That could round out and amplify their cause for concerns about the new system doing too much harm to those who should be more than well equipped to deal with a (Poison/Disease).
They could still make Supernatural (Poison/Disease) and even though it would still hurt, it would not be totally detrimental to a party that it shuts down one (or more) people.

About the second item, I'm approving of your idea, but not sure how they can possibly implement it.
Because mobs do not use "equipment," per say, those bonuses are already included in their stats.
That being said, I could better understand a tiered progression for scaling difficulty of types of mobs, like so:

Casual/Normal, the mobs would have the most basic available resource, their racial bonus(es), if any apply.
Hard/Elite, the mobs would have more chances to survive with the inclusion of Class abilities added to their Racial ones.
Epic progressions would follow the same criteria as the above but with heightened bonuses. +15 bonuses to resist (Poison/Disease) sounds about right for Racial and Class abilities.
Epic Casual/Epic Normal would have creatures who have a flat +15 (Exemplary bonus) to resist those types of spells/abilities (due to Exemplary Racial only).
Epic Hard/Epic Elite would have +30 to resist said spell/ability types (due to Exemplary Racial and Exemplary Class).


Why I disagree with #3 is pretty simple.
We are not Gods.