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dozkal-mo
06-21-2012, 09:02 PM
Make it produce ki when you have a ki bar. Not getting ki for it is, for lack of a better word, lame. Also...if I remember, you don't get ki for using a shuriken.

How about getting ki for ranged attacks? Not doing that only provides incentive to NOT make a ranged monk. :\

HatsuharuZ
06-21-2012, 09:24 PM
Would you like a ranged Stunning Fist attack next? :D

dozkal-mo
06-21-2012, 10:21 PM
Would you like a ranged Stunning Fist attack next? :D

Light monks have that, actually.

Please keep replies in a progressive manner that are on topic.

HatsuharuZ
06-22-2012, 12:07 AM
Light monks have that, actually.

Please keep replies in a progressive manner that are on topic.

Sorry. ^^;

It just occurs to me that if monks gain ki on ranged attacks, they'll want to use their other attacks, especially the damage clickies, with ranged weapons too. That would potentially make arcane archers obselete.

But if it's just *ki* that is gained with ranged attacks, I'd agree with this.

Munkenmo
06-22-2012, 12:12 AM
tier 3 water stance allows you to passively regen ki whilst having a bow equipped.
any earth stance allows you to regen ki whilst getting hit by trash.

neither option is ideal, but both allow me to generate enough ki to activate 10k stars and shadowfade as needed.


It just occurs to me that if monks gain ki on ranged attacks, they'll want to use their other attacks, especially the damage clickies, with ranged weapons too. That would potentially make arcane archers obselete.

But if it's just *ki* that is gained with ranged attacks, I'd agree with this.

My only arcane archer is a monk. The two can be one in the same.

dozkal-mo
06-22-2012, 10:52 PM
Sorry. ^^;

It just occurs to me that if monks gain ki on ranged attacks, they'll want to use their other attacks, especially the damage clickies, with ranged weapons too. That would potentially make arcane archers obselete.

But if it's just *ki* that is gained with ranged attacks, I'd agree with this.

Yes, I agree with you. Only ki.



tier 3 water stance allows you to passively regen ki whilst having a bow equipped.
any earth stance allows you to regen ki whilst getting hit by trash.

neither option is ideal, but both allow me to generate enough ki to activate 10k stars and shadowfade as needed.



My only arcane archer is a monk. The two can be one in the same.

Yeah, those stances aren't enough. And that's the plan; to have AA on a Dark Monk with a couple levels of Fighter for feats and Haste Boost. I like to think it'll be good ranged DPS. We'll see how it works out (or doesn't).

scoobmx
06-22-2012, 11:44 PM
Make it produce ki when you have a ki bar. Not getting ki for it is, for lack of a better word, lame. Also...if I remember, you don't get ki for using a shuriken.

How about getting ki for ranged attacks? Not doing that only provides incentive to NOT make a ranged monk. :\

Nope. It's good enough already in that it lets you use a different stat for to-hit and use bows as ki weapons. Compare with weapon finesse: it's right in line. Both allow for different to-hit stats for a limited subset of weapons.

dozkal-mo
06-23-2012, 12:08 AM
Nope. It's good enough already in that it lets you use a different stat for to-hit and use bows as ki weapons. Compare with weapon finesse: it's right in line. Both allow for different to-hit stats for a limited subset of weapons.

I disagree. If I were to use Weapon Finesse on a monk, I'd get to use Dex as my to-hit stat in melee, and I'd still get ki from those attacks. However, I am denied that benefit with Zen Archery. If it was to be in-line with Weap Fin, then it should also allow for the production of ki.

Doesn't Whirling Steel Strike (I think that's what it's called) that allows for longswords as ki weapons ALSO allow for ki production on strike? If so, then why is Zen Archery left out in the cold?

wax_on_wax_off
06-23-2012, 01:57 AM
Yeah, those stances aren't enough. And that's the plan; to have AA on a Dark Monk with a couple levels of Fighter for feats and Haste Boost. I like to think it'll be good ranged DPS. We'll see how it works out (or doesn't).

Need an SP bar to get AA and fighter by itself doesn't provide enough feats, imo. 6 ranger provides 7 feats 4 of which you need on an AA, fighter 6 provides 4 1 of which you have to spend on a feat to maintain comparable damage to ranger (weapon specialisation).

You're saying that it isn't enough ... and then you're saying what you're planning, have you actually tried to see if it's enough? Have you considered with epic destinies that you can get a twist to have an extra 2 Ki/tick? Do you really want to be full time ranged and give up all the awesome things that handwraps can do (Static Charge, Porous Soul, Stunning Fist etc)?

Stillwaters
06-23-2012, 02:03 AM
Need an SP bar to get AA

You know we all get sp bars come the update right?
all you need for a sp bar is an item that grants sp.

dozkal-mo
06-23-2012, 02:24 AM
Need an SP bar to get AA and fighter by itself doesn't provide enough feats, imo. 6 ranger provides 7 feats 4 of which you need on an AA, fighter 6 provides 4 1 of which you have to spend on a feat to maintain comparable damage to ranger (weapon specialisation).

You're saying that it isn't enough ... and then you're saying what you're planning, have you actually tried to see if it's enough? Have you considered with epic destinies that you can get a twist to have an extra 2 Ki/tick? Do you really want to be full time ranged and give up all the awesome things that handwraps can do (Static Charge, Porous Soul, Stunning Fist etc)?

Ranger levels provide an SP bar. It'll be 12 monk/6 Ranger/2 Fighter. Yes, I've planned it out and tested it. It works well. I get 10k stars, Manyshot, and a Haste Boost that I can alternate.

This was something that I've planned before EDs were released. I'll deal with that when I look them over. Which I haven't yet.

And yes, I really do want to be full time ranged. The same can be said if I go melee: would I really want to sacrifice all the great things I could do as a ranged? Since I'll be an elf, I can still get full AA line for slaying arrows, which is awesome. The monk curses are **** because they're the same timer as Touch of Death. Why would I want to sacrifice ToD for that?

wax_on_wax_off
06-23-2012, 03:01 AM
Ranger levels provide an SP bar. It'll be 12 monk/6 Ranger/2 Fighter. Yes, I've planned it out and tested it. It works well. I get 10k stars, Manyshot, and a Haste Boost that I can alternate.

This was something that I've planned before EDs were released. I'll deal with that when I look them over. Which I haven't yet.

And yes, I really do want to be full time ranged. The same can be said if I go melee: would I really want to sacrifice all the great things I could do as a ranged? Since I'll be an elf, I can still get full AA line for slaying arrows, which is awesome. The monk curses are **** because they're the same timer as Touch of Death. Why would I want to sacrifice ToD for that?

Lol, so you want your ranged attacks to generate Ki so you can swap to melee to use ToD or you want to use ToD with your bow?

In my experience ToD isn't worth it on a mostly ranged build due to Ki and AP constraints, ymmv.

wax_on_wax_off
06-23-2012, 03:06 AM
You know we all get sp bars come the update right?
all you need for a sp bar is an item that grants sp.

I did get the memo yes but haven't thought of many (any?) combinations that could actually put the Sorc PL/U14 blue bar to use when almost any AA build will either have 6+ ranger or significant levels of another blue bar class.

The closest that I got was 12 rogue/6 monk/2 fighter or ranger. Compared to 13 rogue/6 monk/1 artificer ranged feats are up 1 - so you can get regular strength shot and go elf instead of helf - but miss out on arti perks which overall seem nicer than the alternative.

dozkal-mo
06-23-2012, 03:55 AM
Lol, so you want your ranged attacks to generate Ki so you can swap to melee to use ToD or you want to use ToD with your bow?

In my experience ToD isn't worth it on a mostly ranged build due to Ki and AP constraints, ymmv.

What? No, that's not what I meant at all. I won't even be taking ToD. ToD on a bow would be...well, too good if it were possible. And it's called TOUCH of Death, after all. What I was saying is that if I used a Monk curse, then I wouldn't be able to use ToD because they're on the same timer, which is dumb.

EDIT: I plan on using the ki for Shadow Fade and 10k stars. That is all.

wax_on_wax_off
06-23-2012, 06:46 AM
What? No, that's not what I meant at all. I won't even be taking ToD. ToD on a bow would be...well, too good if it were possible. And it's called TOUCH of Death, after all. What I was saying is that if I used a Monk curse, then I wouldn't be able to use ToD because they're on the same timer, which is dumb.

EDIT: I plan on using the ki for Shadow Fade and 10k stars. That is all.

If you're not planning on taking ToD then them being on the same timer is irrelevant. 10k star builds have an excellent opportunity to take and use Static Charge/Porous Soul to give +10% DPS to arcanes or your own LitII bow. While it's rarely worthwhile to do for personal DPS it's a no-brainer in a raid when no one else will be doing it (as other dark monks would use god instead).

dozkal-mo
06-23-2012, 06:57 PM
If you're not planning on taking ToD then them being on the same timer is irrelevant. 10k star builds have an excellent opportunity to take and use Static Charge/Porous Soul to give +10% DPS to arcanes or your own LitII bow. While it's rarely worthwhile to do for personal DPS it's a no-brainer in a raid when no one else will be doing it (as other dark monks would use god instead).

Yes, but it's a touch range attack. I'd rather not be that close. Besides, can I even use that with a bow in hand?

wax_on_wax_off
06-23-2012, 09:42 PM
Yes, but it's a touch range attack. I'd rather not be that close. Besides, can I even use that with a bow in hand?

...

That is the point.

Swapping to wraps to apply these effects is well worthwhile for overall raid DPS (+10% DPS to all the arcanes casting Eledar's Electric Surge is huge!).

dozkal-mo
06-24-2012, 12:23 AM
...

That is the point.

Swapping to wraps to apply these effects is well worthwhile for overall raid DPS (+10% DPS to all the arcanes casting Eledar's Electric Surge is huge!).

That's not what I'm doing nor will I do it. You've also completely missed the point of my post and I'd like to go back to that: I want Zen Archery to produce ki. None of your posts have been relevant to that. Please stay on topic.

Munkenmo
06-24-2012, 12:46 AM
Yeah, those stances aren't enough. And that's the plan; to have AA on a Dark Monk with a couple levels of Fighter for feats and Haste Boost. I like to think it'll be good ranged DPS. We'll see how it works out (or doesn't).

You're planning it, I already have it.

From my experience those stances generate enough ki to sustain manyshot / 10k stars / shadowfade for quite a decent period.

Like what wax on is alluding to, at some point you will be better off helping the party by going in to melee, This is partly because the build has good melee, and ki aside, your ranged dps bursts (10k stars / manyshot) will both be on timer. If you insist on staying ranged during that period when you have things like TOD or dark monk curses at your disposal you are simply not playing the build to it's fullest potential.

With the upcoming epic destines providing more passive ki regen I believe it will be quite possible in water stance to keep up 10k stars indefinately and shadowfade as needed.

The idea of giving ki to a bow user would only work as a passive +1 to ki regen. If given a "ki on hit" effect, during manyshot / 10k stars you're going to end up completely maxing your yellow bar pushing ki discussions to the other end of the table complaining there's nothing viable to spend it on.

dozkal-mo
06-24-2012, 01:01 AM
You're planning it, I already have it.

From my experience those stances generate enough ki to sustain manyshot / 10k stars / shadowfade for quite a decent period.

Like what wax on is alluding to, at some point you will be better off helping the party by going in to melee, This is partly because the build has good melee, and ki aside, your ranged dps bursts (10k stars / manyshot) will both be on timer. If you insist on staying ranged during that period when you have things like TOD or dark monk curses at your disposal you are simply not playing the build to it's fullest potential.

With the upcoming epic destines providing more passive ki regen I believe it will be quite possible in water stance to keep up 10k stars indefinately and shadowfade as needed.

The idea of giving ki to a bow user would only work as a passive +1 to ki regen. If given a "ki on hit" effect, during manyshot / 10k stars you're going to end up completely maxing your yellow bar pushing ki discussions to the other end of the table complaining there's nothing viable to spend it on.

But that requires Tier III Water Stance, right? My build will only be Tier II.

And I suppose they could always add stuff for ranged monk stuff. Maybe attacks with Henshin Mystic. I don't know. Just because I can't burn through the ki that may get produced by those attacks doesn't mean I shouldn't get the effect. Or they could disable getting ki while those abilities are active (10k stars and Manyshot).

I had the though that I'd have 10k stars, Manyshot, AND Haste Boost, so I'm always using one, more or less.

RangerMaya
06-24-2012, 02:21 AM
I don't think it's too much to ask that attacks (ranged or melee) generate ki so long as one is using a ki weapon and is in stance. Obviously you won't be able to do monk curses using a ranged weapon (which is understandable) but that's a playstyle choice. That's one of the great things about this game; you don't have to play a cookie cutter build to be viable. There are plenty of options and ways to play and contribute to a party. For me personally, I've been playing the game far too long to want to stick to someone else's idea of viability....so I rather like the flavor builds. Well that, and my epeen doesn't need to be stroked by doing the most DPS in a party in order for me to enjoy myself. Because in the end, it's a game and we play to have fun....right? :cool:

wax_on_wax_off
06-24-2012, 02:43 AM
I can understand your mix of Manyshot and Haste Boost, which is cool. I have nothing to say to that. Good times.

As for Water Stance III...that requires 18 levels of Monk. Manyshot (unless I want to take more feats AND Dex of 17) requires 6 levels of Ranger. Getting 17 Dex and the other feats for Manyshot instead of 6 levels of Ranger would hurt my build more, I think.

Savants can curse bosses on their own and they've been fine before without monk curses. In fact, more than likely they're not even necessary. It seems overkill to just throw a ridiculous number of curses. If a party can't complete a raid because the monk didn't throw a Static Charge, then the party members have some serious rethinking of their builds to do.

As for your last paragraph, your rudeness is unappreciated and unwarranted; please keep it civil here. Please bear in mind that I'm not requesting the Devs cater to my specific style of play; I'm merely pointing out what I think to be a gap in ki generation.

So now we're getting into the real crux of the issue which is simply that you haven't educated yourself about building a 10k stars arcane archer in the first place.
Points:

Water Stance III and the +1 Ki gen is availabe at monk level 12 (which leaves room for 6 ranger and 2 fighter or artificer)
You probably want 19 dexterity to qualify for Improved Precise Shot, no way in hell I'd build a close to 100% archer character without this feat
I said fail OR use resources. If you don't participate in content where people have to use resources occasionally then you clearly aren't challenging yourself (normal shroud anyone?), have a care for the scrolls, pots and other consumables that people use and contribute as much DPS as you can even if that means swapping to melee momentarily and providing a curse which gives +10% stacking vulnerability (with savant curse, lightning motes and this that's 45% or something? Awesome!).


I'm not being rude, I'm being direct, it tends to happen when you ignore the subtle/friendly/informative approach.

dozkal-mo
06-24-2012, 02:56 AM
So now we're getting into the real crux of the issue which is simply that you haven't educated yourself about building a 10k stars arcane archer in the first place.
Points:

Water Stance III and the +1 Ki gen is availabe at monk level 12 (which leaves room for 6 ranger and 2 fighter or artificer)
You probably want 19 dexterity to qualify for Improved Precise Shot, no way in hell I'd build a close to 100% archer character without this feat
I said fail OR use resources. If you don't participate in content where people have to use resources occasionally then you clearly aren't challenging yourself (normal shroud anyone?), have a care for the scrolls, pots and other consumables that people use and contribute as much DPS as you can even if that means swapping to melee momentarily and providing a curse which gives +10% stacking vulnerability (with savant curse, lightning motes and this that's 45% or something? Awesome!).


I'm not being rude, I'm being direct, it tends to happen when you ignore the subtle/friendly/informative approach.

I have educated myself, thank you very much. The issue in water stances seems to be that you think Master of the Sea is Tier III, but I see Grandmaster of Oceans as Tier III (I don't count the adept as a tier b/c it's free). I just didn't see a passive ki generation of 1 being necessary for my uses since I like to keep Shadow Fade up constantly, hence this thread.

No, I don't want to get up to 19 Dex for Improved Precise Shot. If you want to use it on your toons, that's fine. Like I said before, I don't want Dex because I'm using Zen Archery; I only need Wis....along with Str and Con, of course. I like to build to few stats when I can.

Using resources from time to time comes with being a caster/divine. I've accepted this on my builds and I don't expect people to repay me for my scrolls, not even pots. I don't mind helping out from time to time, and I do on many toons, but this point is really not in line with the original post in this thread.

And once again you're bringing up things completely irrelevant to my original post: ki generation for Zen Archery. The Water Stance thing makes sense, but everything else is completely irrelevant and I ask you once again to stop bringing them up; I will not respond to them again.

wax_on_wax_off
06-24-2012, 03:25 AM
I have educated myself, thank you very much. The issue in water stances seems to be that you think Master of the Sea is Tier III, but I see Grandmaster of Oceans as Tier III (I don't count the adept as a tier b/c it's free). I just didn't see a passive ki generation of 1 being necessary for my uses since I like to keep Shadow Fade up constantly, hence this thread.

No, I don't want to get up to 19 Dex for Improved Precise Shot. If you want to use it on your toons, that's fine. Like I said before, I don't want Dex because I'm using Zen Archery; I only need Wis....along with Str and Con, of course. I like to build to few stats when I can.

Using resources from time to time comes with being a caster/divine. I've accepted this on my builds and I don't expect people to repay me for my scrolls, not even pots. I don't mind helping out from time to time, and I do on many toons, but this point is really not in line with the original post in this thread.

And once again you're bringing up things completely irrelevant to my original post: ki generation for Zen Archery. The Water Stance thing makes sense, but everything else is completely irrelevant and I ask you once again to stop bringing them up; I will not respond to them again.

It's nice to build to limited stats but a full time archer needs IPS, I've played with it and I've played without it and I'll never build an AA again without it, no way in hell. I realise there's some lessons that you have to learn yourself but do yourself a favour and get it right the first time so you don't have to come back later worse for wear hat in hand (not that you will but whatever).

If you want to try it both ways then do, IPS needs to be activated so you can play with it on or off. In U14 you get a free LR so level up to qualify for it and try it on and try it off, you'll notice that some situations IPS is godly (in quite a few quests 5-10 mobs spawn all in a line and it is ridiculously good attacking all of them simultaneously), sometimes IPS is good (in most quests you can at least be hitting 2 mobs at a time), sometimes it is useless (often there is just 1 boss mob to fight) and sometimes it is detrimental (ALWAYS turn IPS before part 2 of Tower of Despair unless you want to wipe the party). People have AAs without IPS but they are usually the sort to take ToD and include a melee focus for when 10k stars/manyshot is on timer and I can somewhat understand this (but still don't agree with it).

If after all of this you feel like IPS isn't important then use the free LR to swap it out (and reallocate the dexterity).

Adept of Water is certainly tier 1 as it gives you water strike I and used to cost an action point, that said, I can somewhat understand the confusion, no worries.

Keeping shadow fade up constantly shouldn't be necessary on an archer build. In U14 items (that you definitely want to use in all likelihood) can grant 10% incorporeality so shadow fade itself is less useful (15% extra is nice but not as good as it used to be). I'd suggest that trying to keep enough Ki handy to hit shadow fade when you get into a difficult spot is more the path to follow.

We use resources on our casters with the assumption that everyone is doing their best to minimise their use. Your thread is about wanting to generate ki with ranged attacks so that you never have to swap to melee. My response is that you should want to swap to melee sometimes as archers have enough trouble pulling their weight as it is without intentionally making it worse.

I'll repeat, archers have trouble pulling their weight as it is. You won't have comparable gear on a first life character, you don't want to swap to melee (which is better DPS outside of 10k stars/manyshot regardless), you don't want to take IPS (which can halve your DPS in many situations). Not pulling your weight really bothers you so little?

Mind you, Player>Gear>Build, if you know all the quests and are a great player with all the best gear then build whatever you like, if the above isn't you however then maybe try to get the build part right at least :)

Munkenmo
06-24-2012, 09:55 AM
I have educated myself, thank you very much. The issue in water stances seems to be that you think Master of the Sea is Tier III, but I see Grandmaster of Oceans as Tier III (I don't count the adept as a tier b/c it's free). I just didn't see a passive ki generation of 1 being necessary for my uses since I like to keep Shadow Fade up constantly, hence this thread.


Master of the Sea is Tier 3, and is the tier granting +1 passive ki regen, it also boosts wisdom over the tier 1&2 stances by 1, possibly evening you out and increasing your arrow output during 10k stars. I'd definitely recommend trying it out, as it's an enhancement it's fairly simple to change.


I had the though that I'd have 10k stars, Manyshot, AND Haste Boost, so I'm always using one, more or less.
It is possible to have haste boost & damage boost active at the same time as manyshot or 10k stars, try using them simultaneously the rate of fire is awesome! Using them simultaneously though does exaggerate how dismal the rate of fire is with a bow when said abilities are on cooldown, which is why I switch to melee.


No, I don't want to get up to 19 Dex for Improved Precise Shot. If you want to use it on your toons, that's fine. Like I said before, I don't want Dex because I'm using Zen Archery; I only need Wis....along with Str and Con, of course. I like to build to few stats when I can.

And once again you're bringing up things completely irrelevant to my original post: ki generation for Zen Archery. The Water Stance thing makes sense, but everything else is completely irrelevant and I ask you once again to stop bringing them up; I will not respond to them again

I understand and appreciate not wanting to build to 19dex, I really didn't on my AA. What sold the feat for me though, was looking at it as one of (if not) the most powerful dps feat in the game, It's expensive, but it allows you to double/triple/quadruple/quintuple (or more) your potential dps. Also it's really cool when I'm wearing my frozen tunic along with my earth grab bow to see upwards of 4 enemies completely immobilized, solely by me.

This isn't as per your op, but I feel it may be good advice.

Given your main draws to the monk splash are shadowfade / 10k stars, you don't want to melee and use curses, have you considered

11ranger/6monk/3artificer

It'd get you all the ranged dps feats, twf feats with 0 requirements for dex. You'd still get shadowfade / 10k stars, and a third artificer level would net you the elemental weapons level 2 spell.
There is an epic destiny that grants haste boost, so you'll miss it for a while, but eventually it may be more inline with what your looking for?