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esoitl
06-19-2012, 07:17 PM
From the release notes:


The spell damage amplification system (including bonuses from items and enhancements) now uses a Spell Power rating to determine how much damage you deal with spells. In most cases, each point of Spell Power increases the base damage of your spell by 1%. (For example, casting a spell with 100 Spell Power will result in double damage.)
Unlike the old damage amplification effects, Spell Power is not restricted by spell level, and bonuses to Spell Power of different types stack, following standard D&D stacking rules. (An Enhancement bonus and an Alchemical bonus will stack, but only the greater of two Enhancement bonuses will apply.) The bonus damage from Spell Power is not multiplied by metamagics such as Empower Spell or Maximize Spell.
Items and enhancements that granted damage amplification to specific damage types will now provide a bonus to Spell Power with spells of that damage type. (For example, an old Combustion V item that used to grant +20% damage to level V or lower Fire spells will now grant a +48 Equipment bonus to Spell Power when casting any Fire spell.) Potency effects grant Spell Power with any spell, as expected, but generally have lower values than specific effects.


I'm not positive why this change was made, maybe it's to cater to the WoW crowd because this screams of a system that would be used there.
In my eyes though, this looks really awkward...

In bold from the release notes, apparently 1 Spell Power = +1%... well why do items give odd values like +48 and +108.. are we getting +48% and +108% or are these values more closely rewarded with +40/50% and +100/110%?

One thing I hated with WoW was the numbers were not intuitive all the time, you just had to get them as high as possible and know that higher is better, which is what this looks like...

I don't know why they got rid of the old level restrictions either... change for the sake of change?

Dagolar
06-19-2012, 07:45 PM
From the release notes:


I'm not positive why this change was made, maybe it's to cater to the WoW crowd because this screams of a system that would be used there.
In my eyes though, this looks really awkward...

In bold from the release notes, apparently 1 Spell Power = +1%... well why do items give odd values like +48 and +108.. are we getting +48% and +108% or are these values more closely rewarded with +40/50% and +100/110%?

One thing I hated with WoW was the numbers were not intuitive all the time, you just had to get them as high as possible and know that higher is better, which is what this looks like...

I don't know why they got rid of the old level restrictions either... change for the sake of change?

The only change from the old system, mechanic-wise, is the removal of the spell level restrictions. IE, in terms of how awkward spell power is:
*It's a much more simplified system than the previous one, and more intuitive for new players to grasp
*Higher numbers = better
* 1 point = +1% off of the base 100% spell damage. You can now directly compare benefits from enhancements, items, etc, with ease.
*The curious choice in numbers isn't awkward unless you're particularly attracted to multiples of 5. As for the choices made on them, it's likely to keep an internal balance between items, enhancements, etc: For example, wanting 48 spellpower from items to compare precisely against a 52 benefit from enhancements, to equal +100. In any case, once you add in implementation bonuses on items, you aren't going to get a nice even number, anyway [the implementation bonus being a reason to finally care if your item is a higher + enchantment bonus than another item].


It's definitely a change made to cater to new players, but I'm not seeing any reason to interpret it as unintuitive.

BossOfEarth
06-19-2012, 07:55 PM
This is definitely not catering to WoW players. This new stuff stacks using normal DnD stacking rules. Everyone knows our stacking rules makes WoW players cry.

Not sure why they got rid of the spell level restrictions but I could guess. I think they want to let all classes compete for the same magic items. Right now the classes that can't cast all the way up to level 9 have it too easy. Slot a Superior IV or Superior VI and you're done forever. But with this new system there's no reason to stop gearing up.

I'll like the current rules too, but this new stuff looks more fun to me. Edit: Because I never want to stop gearing up.

Osma77
06-19-2012, 08:18 PM
Just one example for this point.

My 18 acid sorc only has a sup pot 6 item, mainly because I don't play him. With old rules, my free acid arrow spell often dose as good or more damage then my high level black dragon bolt. The only time bdb is better is when it gets a good crit. That's stupid. With the new system, no matter what your potency is, your higher level spells will do more than your lower level spells. (Ignoring strange situations at least.)

sirgog
06-19-2012, 08:42 PM
Just one example for this point.

My 18 acid sorc only has a sup pot 6 item, mainly because I don't play him. With old rules, my free acid arrow spell often dose as good or more damage then my high level black dragon bolt. The only time bdb is better is when it gets a good crit. That's stupid. With the new system, no matter what your potency is, your higher level spells will do more than your lower level spells. (Ignoring strange situations at least.)

Yeah this is definitely the main reason behind it.

Meteor Swarm is now a genuinely useful spell the instant you get it, rather than sucking until you have a Regalia of the Phoenix. Ditto other high level damage spells that are hard to buff.

voodoogroves
06-19-2012, 08:50 PM
The complete re-gearing of my casters to shelve the clickies and find static boosters is going to be a pain, but the ability for higher level spells to get an actual boost more reasonably will be nice.

Whesper
06-19-2012, 09:14 PM
It's gonna be a huge PITA for battlecasters: characters that used spell amp. clickies and used a melee weapon for fighting. From clonks to Tukaw builds... This also effects light monks, pallys and rangers somewhat, but most of their spells can be amped with the cheap pots.

Jonathrint
06-19-2012, 10:27 PM
Instead of saying +1 spell power, why not just say +1% spell damage? That way you're using terminology that's identical to enhancements instead of inventing a new term. "Spell power" does not relate to anything else in the game numerically, while "+1% spell damage" plainly explains what is going on.

Talias006
06-19-2012, 10:50 PM
Instead of saying +1 spell power, why not just say +1% spell damage? That way you're using terminology that's identical to enhancements instead of inventing a new term. "Spell power" does not relate to anything else in the game numerically, while "+1% spell damage" plainly explains what is going on.

They're doing it this way to prepare people for the Enhancement upgrade, which most likely will include more +Spell Power.
Out with the old, in with the new. (In two doses.)

Dagolar
06-19-2012, 10:55 PM
Instead of saying +1 spell power, why not just say +1% spell damage? That way you're using terminology that's identical to enhancements instead of inventing a new term. "Spell power" does not relate to anything else in the game numerically, while "+1% spell damage" plainly explains what is going on.


As far as Spell Power being noted in a percentile form: That'd lead to confusions on whether it applies cumulatively. A static, additive descriptor such as Spell Power assures us that it's all the same value.

Really, there are more useful things to argue against in the game, rather than something that occasionally requires a two second explanation- no? :P

Perhaps I'm just missing what you're trying to get across. :)

Edit:

They're doing it this way to prepare people for the Enhancement upgrade, which most likely will include more +Spell Power.
Out with the old, in with the new. (In two doses.)

Ahh. That clarifies the confusion.
Yes, they'll be changing the enhancements to use Spell Power as well- just as the Epic Destinies already do.

esoitl
06-19-2012, 11:04 PM
It's definitely a change made to cater to new players, but I'm not seeing any reason to interpret it as unintuitive.


(For example, an old Combustion V item that used to grant +20% damage to level V or lower Fire spells will now grant a +48 Equipment bonus to Spell Power when casting any Fire spell.)


If you say it is intuitive, where do they get the number +48 and to what degree does it boost my spells?



This is definitely not catering to WoW players. This new stuff stacks using normal DnD stacking rules. Everyone knows our stacking rules makes WoW players cry
The stacking rules aren't changing, in fact there are more bonuses now that stack whereas before they didn't.
I said it caters to WoW players because now there is a value on the character sheet(is it even displayed on the character sheet? If it is, is it broken down into every spell type?), much like I remember from WoW.

As I put in the above example, I am not seeing exactly where the number comes from, nor the connection to how it is improving my spells.
The old item gave a 20% bonus to damage to spells level <5, which is rather easy to figure out. The new item gives a +48. Does that mean it gives +48%? If so, that's an awfully large increase in power for the same item and a very arbitrary sounding bonus.



My 18 acid sorc only has a sup pot 6 item, mainly because I don't play him. With old rules, my free acid arrow spell often dose as good or more damage then my high level black dragon bolt. The only time bdb is better is when it gets a good crit. That's stupid. With the new system, no matter what your potency is, your higher level spells will do more than your lower level spells.
This is just a ML or treasure level difficulty.
In current live, the loot can only get to be so powerful and unfortunately, the items to boost these spells are off the loot tables, but should be there with the release of higher level content anyways...
Back in the days of GH being cap, getting items to boost the top level spells weren't easy to come by. +1 tomes were useful, +2s and +3s were high end raid loot, vorpals, smiters, paralyzers, banishers, and +6 stat items were amazing random loot drops.
With an increase in quest level, pretty much none of that is true and many of those items are relegated to vendors now or commonplace.
We probably would have gotten it with the level cap as we will actually be able to use it now. What's the point of giving a ML 22 item when the cap is 20?

I can understand it in a sense, but unlike the AC, was there ever a problem with the caster items?



Yeah this is definitely the main reason behind it.

Meteor Swarm is now a genuinely useful spell the instant you get it, rather than sucking until you have a Regalia of the Phoenix. Ditto other high level damage spells that are hard to buff.
If this is the case, I disagree with the change.
It's going to make older, rather plain items very very powerful compared to the old version. There is a lot of angst against casters being over powered already, now this is making it easier for them to become even more powerful with the basic items most already have.

In order to boost a powerful spell, one would think you would need a powerful item, as stated above, we haven't seen them likely because the level is too high but that problem is been solved.

esoitl
06-19-2012, 11:06 PM
They're doing it this way to prepare people for the Enhancement upgrade, which most likely will include more +Spell Power.
Out with the old, in with the new. (In two doses.)

OK, but since this is a system they are creating, why can't they continue to use % numbers instead of adding spell power.
See my post above, it doesn't seem as intuitive as a simple % value like they use now, but maybe I'm missing the boat on something..

t0r012
06-19-2012, 11:35 PM
OK, but since this is a system they are creating, why can't they continue to use % numbers instead of adding spell power.
See my post above, it doesn't seem as intuitive as a simple % value like they use now, but maybe I'm missing the boat on something..

I'm guessing here but because percentages multiply together and spell power is addative?

morticianjohn
06-19-2012, 11:53 PM
How awkward is spell power?

I'll tell you when I understand it.

I guess the most annoying part is that we have to re evaluate all of our gear, and in many cases change out epic items that we spent months farming and crafting because they were an item that was going to be equipped most of the time.

For example a cleric/fvs might have had epic helm of frost or something that cost millions of plat for the scroll (and a lot of time running epic chrono for seals and shards) but with the spell power changes they will farm out epic mask of comedy to fill that slot instead. This is a pretty awkward situation to be in IMHO but it's a MMO, things change and nothing stays on top forever.

The other awkward part of it IMO is that they've established somewhat arbitrary numbers to the value of certain items and also devalued potency to the point of uselessness. It made sense that potency was a more powerful effect which had a higher ML (or lower spell level). The arbitrary nerfing of some items and effects is awkward IMO because it's just a random change that no one asked for and wasn't really needed.

Of course once I understand it better and have geared all of my characters geared accordingly I'll probably change my opinion.

Zirun
06-20-2012, 12:13 AM
1 Spell Power = +1% base damage.
48 Spell Power = +48% base damage.

Add up all Spell Power modifiers, add to the base damage. It's as simple as that.


The other awkward part of it IMO is that they've established somewhat arbitrary numbers to the value of certain items and also devalued potency to the point of uselessness. It made sense that potency was a more powerful effect which had a higher ML (or lower spell level). The arbitrary nerfing of some items and effects is awkward IMO because it's just a random change that no one asked for and wasn't really needed.

Potency has to be worse than other static spell power effects, because it applies to all spells. There are no longer Potency I, II, III, IV, etc. effects, so simply giving Potency a higher ML might not be easy or even possible now. If anything, this is a buff to Potency because now there's actually a reason to use static spell power items instead of relying on clickies which up until now have been stronger anyways. People that have relied on clickies will have to change at least one gear slot, though, that is true.

Couldn't tell you why they chose seemingly random Spell Power amounts for items. Doesn't really matter a whole lot, though. If it really matters, the math isn't too hard to do to figure out just how much you're getting out of one item over another.

Talan
06-20-2012, 12:29 AM
Itemisation seems to be a problem with the (understandable) change to Potency items, albeit one fixable with an item pass through on major quests of all levels. Equipment enhancing some elemental types is far more common than others; there needs to be a more even balance of enhancement items for different types of damage.

esoitl
06-20-2012, 12:55 AM
1 Spell Power = +1% base damage.
48 Spell Power = +48% base damage.


Yes, and that makes sense, but how does one take a Combustion V item and say it should now increase the damage of all fire spells, even 9th level ones, by 48%?
Why 48% of all numbers and how do you justify increasing both the spell level up by 4 levels and the damage by 28% for the SAME item?

Don't forget that the release notes said "in most cases" 1 SP = 1%, well... what are the cases where this is not true and how do we figure out what the boost is in those cases?

trog_star
06-20-2012, 01:06 AM
It's gonna be a huge PITA for battlecasters: characters that used spell amp. clickies and used a melee weapon for fighting. From clonks to Tukaw builds... This also effects light monks, pallys and rangers somewhat, but most of their spells can be amped with the cheap pots.

clickes were always a huge PITA as a combat caster.
i actually like what this does to combat casters.
now clickes are only for "caster mode" encounters. now i get to forget about em 90% of the time

either your geared for it, or your not.
no middle ground "oh sorry i forgot my clicky".
admittedly the gear grind just got a little worse, but it always sucked. (well slotting toughness and heavy fort after ditching the minos did)

cove hats and house P masks for all :)

Dendrix
06-20-2012, 06:30 AM
Yes, and that makes sense, but how does one take a Combustion V item and say it should now increase the damage of all fire spells, even 9th level ones, by 48%?
Why 48% of all numbers and how do you justify increasing both the spell level up by 4 levels and the damage by 28% for the SAME item?

Previously your items were multiplicative with other effects (enhancements, meta magics etc) in a complex and non obvious way, now all effect are additive and multiply to get the total.

Simplified view of old system
100 (spell damage) * 1.40 (from enhancements) * 1.2 (from your combustion item) = 168 damage.

Simplified view of new syystem
100 (spell damage) * (1 + (24 (new enhancement value) + 48 (combustion item)) / 100 = 172 damage.

The value of 48 for your old item is worked out by turbine's forumla, that converts items based on:
1) the maximum level it affects
2) the ammount of increase it gives.
they they worked out what seemed to be a fair and reasonable conversion, based on everything else that was changing.

The items affecting all spell levels is a simplification of the system, and helps gearing up, it also means that your higher levelled spells are better than your lower levelled spells.

Dagolar
06-20-2012, 06:36 AM
Previously your items were multiplicative with other effects (enhancements, meta magics etc) in a complex and non obvious way, now all effect are additive and multiply to get the total.

Simplified view of old system
100 (spell damage) * 1.40 (from enhancements) * 1.2 (from your combustion item) = 168 damage.

Simplified view of new syystem
100 (spell damage) * (1 + (24 (new enhancement value) + 48 (combustion item)) / 100 = 172 damage.

The value of 48 for your old item is worked out by turbine's forumla, that converts items based on:
1) the maximum level it affects
2) the ammount of increase it gives.
they they worked out what seemed to be a fair and reasonable conversion, based on everything else that was changing.

The items affecting all spell levels is a simplification of the system, and helps gearing up, it also means that your higher levelled spells are better than your lower levelled spells.

Nicely put :)

valarx
06-20-2012, 01:24 PM
OK, but since this is a system they are creating, why can't they continue to use % numbers instead of adding spell power.
See my post above, it doesn't seem as intuitive as a simple % value like they use now, but maybe I'm missing the boat on something..

I'm hopeful that spell power will be eventually be used for more than just damage. There are alot of spells out there that don't directly deal damage (charms, buffs). Wouldn't it be nice if spell power affected these as well? In this case, the % may not make sense.

Ideally, it would be nice if each spell could have traits that could be affected by spell power (probably individual for each spell). Not only would that allow better tweaking for balance, but it would also allow for spells to be given unique niche function. There's always the argument that this complicates things, but honestly, anyone who has played a caster has to do a fair amount of research on each individual spell anyway to figure out what works well and what doesn't.

Here are some examples of spells and Spell Power effects. Things in brackets could be auto-calculated and provided as a number:
Bull's Strength: Provides +4 Strength enhancement bonus (addtionally provides [ 2 * Spell Power / 100 ] Strength enhancement). That would make this spell useful beyond the low levels that it is currently.
Hypnotize: Affects targets for 6 seconds plus [Spell Power/20] seconds
Hold Person: Held targets are subject to 50% additional damage plus [50 * Spell Power /100]% for a total of...
Acid Arrow: Target is affected by 3 ticks of acid arrow + [Spell Power/20] additional ticks

Hovering over the spell should provide you with the numbers based off your current build/equipment. There are tons of ways that spell power could effect a spell (increased save, greater spell penetration, more ticks for DOTs, greater range, larger AOE, additional targets).

All that wishing aside, what I would REALLY like to see is that when I hover over a spell it provides me with it's base damage and then in parenthesis next to that the modified damage based off of spell power.

Noctus
06-20-2012, 06:41 PM
Just one example for this point.

My 18 acid sorc only has a sup pot 6 item, mainly because I don't play him. With old rules, my free acid arrow spell often dose as good or more damage then my high level black dragon bolt. The only time bdb is better is when it gets a good crit. That's stupid. With the new system, no matter what your potency is, your higher level spells will do more than your lower level spells. (Ignoring strange situations at least.)

/this.

Nothing more needs to be said.

joeuhuh
06-22-2012, 06:56 PM
kinda pooty for blade barriers as potency was only mod affecting this cept adam lob mystical items

Stillwaters
06-22-2012, 11:09 PM
kinda pooty for blade barriers as potency was only mod affecting this cept adam lob mystical items

not 100% sure but iirc Impulse stuff was supposed to work on physical/force damage now.

Aritukus
06-23-2012, 03:54 AM
not 100% sure but iirc Impulse stuff was supposed to work on physical/force damage now.

Incorrect. Only Artificer's Force enhancement line did imbue Blade Barrier damage (or PrE for FVS). From items, only general potency and arcane lore did work. So, Joe is correct, only other item ehnacement that works on live is adamantine mystical T1+2 alchemical.

nibel
06-23-2012, 10:53 PM
kinda pooty for blade barriers as potency was only mod affecting this cept adam lob mystical items


not 100% sure but iirc Impulse stuff was supposed to work on physical/force damage now.


Incorrect. Only Artificer's Force enhancement line did imbue Blade Barrier damage (or PrE for FVS).

Stillwaters is talking about the impulse pos-U14. Impulse is being changed to work with force, untyped, slashing, piercing, and budgeoning spells. So, Kinect lore will affect blade barrier.

Ryiah
06-23-2012, 11:36 PM
I said it caters to WoW players because now there is a value on the character sheet(is it even displayed on the character sheet? If it is, is it broken down into every spell type?), much like I remember from WoW.

So let me get this straight. You think ease of understanding automatically means catering to WoW users? If so, I hope DDO continues catering to them. Needlessly complicating a system just because you can is a mark of a bad developer.

zerit2002
06-25-2012, 06:26 AM
Previously your items were multiplicative with other effects (enhancements, meta magics etc) in a complex and non obvious way, now all effect are additive and multiply to get the total.

Simplified view of old system
100 (spell damage) * 1.40 (from enhancements) * 1.2 (from your combustion item) = 168 damage.

Simplified view of new syystem
100 (spell damage) * (1 + (24 (new enhancement value) + 48 (combustion item)) / 100 = 172 damage.

The value of 48 for your old item is worked out by turbine's forumla, that converts items based on:
1) the maximum level it affects
2) the ammount of increase it gives.
they they worked out what seemed to be a fair and reasonable conversion, based on everything else that was changing.

The items affecting all spell levels is a simplification of the system, and helps gearing up, it also means that your higher levelled spells are better than your lower levelled spells.

Nice explanation :) This cleared a few questions I was trying to answer.

patang01
06-25-2012, 07:56 AM
The complete re-gearing of my casters to shelve the clickies and find static boosters is going to be a pain, but the ability for higher level spells to get an actual boost more reasonably will be nice.

Finding static bonuses won't be that hard really. First off the Cannith challenge gear is really good (it was good before but is better now).

Plus there's a wiz staff you can get for wiz commendations that'll boost all elements with greater arcane lore to top it off. Then all scepter type stuff including arcane/divine staffs have been improved. In generall all staffs have 2 spell powers, potency and a lore. So say potency 50, combustion and devotion 80 and Major acid Lore. And the better ones goes all the way up 120 in spell power and Superior Lore.

Plus force (kinetic) now cover untyped damage. So BB, cometfall, meteor storm etc. Making force based enhancement AND items very useful to boost untyped damage.

And if you know Cannith crafting this will be even easier.