PDA

View Full Version : Nerf death penalty



Bloodhaven
06-18-2012, 09:42 PM
Nerf death penalty. Change it so that the person who dies gets a 20% penalty and the rest of the party is not penalized.

Or even better:
Player specific XP penalty.
Death 1 10%
Death 2 20%
Death 3 30%
Death 4 40%
Death 5 50%<max penalty>

Let them die!

AZgreentea
06-18-2012, 10:01 PM
Let them die!
How about every time someone dies, all casters in the group get a -1 to their DC's until that player is rez'd? :D

Seriously though, there is no death penalty. The 10% is a bonus to xp. Its called "+10% Flawless Victory Bonus." There is no penalty for deaths in a quest (aside from the repair costs and the death debuff's).

~Quilny
06-18-2012, 11:33 PM
I used to agree so much with what you are sayign OP but with the new bravery bonus and new contnt so much xp out there it is INSANE. I remmber farms being N N N N N N H E. Now questing is 1 quest on Elite and you done and if it is a good xp quest you might do it. E H H N or something. We just don't need to farm quests for xp anymore so if the -10% are adding up then you have to run a extra 10 quests to cap or something its really not that big of a deal.



back in the day before Reign of madness pack before lordsmarch pack then yes I do agree it mattered it meant the difference between cappin in IQ or capping in Amrath. now you can Cap out in Vale LOL. its craziness.

Flavilandile
06-19-2012, 01:34 AM
ok, lets see, how to say it nicely ?

The 10% bonus XP lost for a death is NOT a death penalty.

The Death Penalty is the increased repair bill you have to pay to fix your items after quests where you die.

The 10% bonus XP is just here to promote group tactics and gaming.

Yes that's more or less a direct quote of how they sold us the thing when they put it in place ot replace the real death penalty that was loosing XPs when you died.

So once again, the 10% bonus XP is not a death penalty, it's a bonus for being a nice group fellow and making sure everybody in your party stay alive.

Jay203
06-19-2012, 03:27 AM
lol, suggestions like these make me wish there were here to experience the real death penalty. AKA: negative exp :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Forzah
06-19-2012, 04:50 AM
I'm more in favor of lifelong sentence than death penalty.

Urist
06-19-2012, 05:43 AM
Perhaps they could add a mechanism mirroring the "devious" and "aggression" bonuses for kills, but counting player/hireling deaths instead:

0 deaths: 10% Flawless Victory
1-2 deaths: 5% Survivalist

20+ deaths: 10% Tenacity
50+ deaths: 20% True Grit

With the exact values set on a per-quest basis, obviously.

mobrien316
06-19-2012, 06:21 AM
Make it so that for each party member that dies, the cleric gets hit with a -10% penalty to XP. Since it's always the cleric's fault if anyone dies...

Lleren
06-19-2012, 06:35 AM
Make it so that for each party member that dies, the cleric gets hit with a -10% penalty to XP. Since it's always the cleric's fault if anyone dies...

Nono, it is only the Healer's fault if The Tank dies. Likewise it is the Tanks fault if the Cleric dies.

Since everyone in DDO plays DPS though, it is their own bleeped fault if they die.
:)

Noctus
06-19-2012, 07:20 AM
Seriously though, there is no death penalty. The 10% is a bonus to xp. Its called "+10% Flawless Victory Bonus." There is no penalty for deaths in a quest (aside from the repair costs and the death debuff's).

For the XP you take out of a quest is is irrelevant how you label it. You got distracted by semantics. There are only two situations:
A) No death ==> 1.100 XP
B) Some death ==> 1.000 XP

If Squishy McRushbrain got himslef killed on that trap the rogue was just disabling you will end the quest with less XP than otherwise.

It is exactly the same if you build your XP-system with giving a "bonus" and then taking that bonus away, or if you have a slightly higher base XP and then impose a penalty.

Anyway loosing a +10% bonus is the death penalty, not some pocket change repair costs. You end with -10% less as if the death had not happened.




Corporal Punishment - Punishing a group for the shortcomings of one member - is bad. Often someone dies and you hade no chance whatsoever to influence the outcome, but yet you will end the quest with less XP that if the other dude had not died.

Bloodhaven
06-19-2012, 07:22 AM
lol, suggestions like these make me wish there were here to experience the real death penalty. AKA: negative exp :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Look at the join date, I was here for all that death penalty goodness.

When you could go whole levels behind in xp people had actual consequences to dying in a quest.

I hope to see some meaningful consequence to dying in a quest in the future.



ok, lets see, how to say it nicely ?

The 10% bonus XP lost for a death is NOT a death penalty.



This just promotes excluding new players from the group. I know how it is described by turbine. This does not change the fact that when someone dies the whole party receives 10% less XP. That to me sounds like a penalty.


I long for the days of XP debt.

Hordo
06-19-2012, 07:25 AM
Nerf death penalty. Change it so that the person who dies gets a 20% penalty and the rest of the party is not penalized.

Or even better:
Player specific XP penalty.
Death 1 10%
Death 2 20%
Death 3 30%
Death 4 40%
Death 5 50%<max penalty>

Let them die!

BRING BACK THE HORDO EFFECT™!!!
To heck with the party penalty to XP...to heck with an X% penalty to XP...bring back NEGATIVE XP for dying!!! :D

Oh, those were the days with levels of "red bar" to make up before one could continue to level...especially like it was with the Level 10 Cap and we could go backwards as far as our own noobness could take us!

Bloodhaven
06-19-2012, 07:43 AM
BRING BACK THE HORDO EFFECTâ„¢!!!
To heck with the party penalty to XP...to heck with an X% penalty to XP...bring back NEGATIVE XP for dying!!! :D

Oh, those were the days with levels of "red bar" to make up before one could continue to level...especially like it was with the Level 10 Cap and we could go backwards as far as our own noobness could take us!

Oh the good old days!

Silverwren
06-19-2012, 08:33 AM
I can't tell if the OP is being serious or not. I'm hoping not.

This would be a programming nightmare, trying to design a program to be able to tell EXACTLY who gets the blame if someone in a party dies. Was it because the healer was getting a snack and wasn't at the keyboard? Was it because the FvS hireling ran around the corner to aggravate the mob? Was it due to lag? Did the tank ran too far down the hall and trigger the spinning traps that the rogue could have disabled? What if the rogue blew the trap and half the party wiped while trying to run through it?

UGH! I could probably list thousands of different scenarios, all of which would have to unerringly point to the one or two players responsible. No way in Shaverath am I signing this suggestion.

Krago
06-19-2012, 08:51 AM
Nerf death penalty. Change it so that the person who dies gets a 20% penalty and the rest of the party is not penalized.

Or even better:
Player specific XP penalty.
Death 1 10%
Death 2 20%
Death 3 30%
Death 4 40%
Death 5 50%<max penalty>

Let them die!

/not signed

Would you be ok with no party benefits but all individual bonus/penalties? Doubtful.

Urist
06-19-2012, 09:24 AM
Perhaps it would be easier to see getting "Persistence" and "Flawless Victory" as bonuses, rather than losing them as penalties, if they were not included on the score card until after completion?

The difference would be entirely psychological, but the issue being discussed seems mostly psychological anyway.

Thanquil
06-19-2012, 09:41 AM
ok, lets see, how to say it nicely ?
The 10% bonus XP lost for a death is NOT a death penalty.


First /not signed

I DO NOT AGREE WIth OP

I also do not agree that the 10% xp loss is not a pen (LOST) in quote above is proof.

If you start with 10% and then you loose it that is bad it is a pen. It isn't phrased as a pen but it is. you can call a Turd a dove but I garantee you that turd will never fly.

Drekisen
06-19-2012, 09:43 AM
/not signed.

People ARE going to die especially in a day and age where the LFM's are always full of ELITE BB streak listings.

Meetch1972
06-19-2012, 09:47 AM
Yeah nah ... if the OP happened, certain individuals would be forever coming up with new ways to grief the noob by orchestrating their death over and over ... for giggles.

I'd^H^H^HI mean they'd have to be stopped!

Flavilandile
06-19-2012, 01:09 PM
BRING BACK THE HORDO EFFECT™!!!
To heck with the party penalty to XP...to heck with an X% penalty to XP...bring back NEGATIVE XP for dying!!! :D

Oh, those were the days with levels of "red bar" to make up before one could continue to level...especially like it was with the Level 10 Cap and we could go backwards as far as our own noobness could take us!

Bows to the Inevitable, Master of the Red XP Bar. :D

Jay203
06-19-2012, 01:26 PM
introducing... "I refuse to give up!" bonus
all party members must have died at least 5 times in same instance
15% exp bonus :D:D:D

Hordo
06-19-2012, 02:08 PM
introducing... "I refuse to give up!" bonus
all party members must have died at least 5 times in same instance
15% exp bonus :D:D:D

I think you've seen some of my groups then...;)

Djeserit
06-19-2012, 02:26 PM
The current 10% penalty discourages grouping with noobs. Then they don't learn the game and the game doesn't grow.

But if there's no penalty, they have no motivation to learn.

So for the sake of the game, bring it back.

Eladiun
06-19-2012, 02:40 PM
There is no death penalty. There is a bonus for not dying. One that originally did not exist. That is all.

Dagolar
06-19-2012, 03:07 PM
For the XP you take out of a quest is is irrelevant how you label it. You got distracted by semantics. There are only two situations:
A) No death ==> 1.100 XP
B) Some death ==> 1.000 XP



1000 Base XP
Re-entry: +10% Persistence (+100xp)
Killing monsters: +25% **Conquest** bonus (+250xp)
Disarming traps: +15% **Ingenious Debilitation** bonus (+150xp)
Finding secret doors: +15% **Vigilant Sight** bonus (+150xp)
Destroying breakable objects: +15% **Ransack** bonus (+150xp)
Deaths: +10% Flawless Victory Bonus (+100xp)

Not including tomes, xp shrines, xp pots, xp items, bravery bonuses, or first time on a difficulty bonuses:
Total XP: 1900xp

Total XP after death(s): 1800

Total % xp lost: +5.5%



Tome: +50% (500xp)
BB: +130% (1300xp)
First time: +80% (800xp)

Xp Pots: +20% (off total)
Xp Shrine: +5% (off total)
XP Item: +5% (off total)

Total xp with full bonuses: Aprox. 5850
Total xp with death(s): Aprox. 5720
Total xp lost: 125xp
Total % xp lost: +2.2%


I have no problems with concerns on gameplay considerations or complaints on styles differing from your own, but xp math is all too often misrepresented.


I noted 'Aprox' for the latter section due to an uncertainty on whether xp pots, shrines, and items stacked additively or cumulatively. Note also not including bonus day bonuses [though all of these bonuses affect no-deaths the same as the remainder of the xp, so the percentages would remain constant regardless]

Dagolar
06-19-2012, 03:09 PM
I think you've seen some of my groups then...;)

If you haven't broken 100 party deaths by quest end, the group hasn't lived! ..er, died.

Xynot2
06-19-2012, 04:21 PM
It's a 10% XP bonus not a death penalty and here's a clear comparison.

If you dont make your quota at work and miss out on your xmas bonus, you aren't getting a paycut.

With that out of the way:

The XP is set up for the group. Bonuses are set up for the group and not completing the optionals for bonus XP is set up for the group. Whether or not your group is 1 or 12. The way things have been scripted, it would take too much and probably break to much to seperate those that should get it from those that shouldn't such as, still getting XP for the optionals/quest completion/etc even if you're dead.

If you want to force people to play a little more caustiously, I think the solution would be to have it where when dead, you neither get XP or completion and that way, people can leave you dead for losing their bonus.

Otherwise, it should stay as is.

/never gonna sign it.

Kadriel
06-19-2012, 04:41 PM
Why ppl complain about losing flawless 10% xp bonus, but hardly ever let rogues/artis get traps for the 15%?

Enoach
06-19-2012, 05:23 PM
I remember many nights recovering from the XP Debt of the original system. What I miss about the system was how it drove people to quest more carefully employing tactics (Trips, stuns, sap, paralyzers and stat damage effects). I believe it fostered team work and the penalty went against the one that died (I always point that we are personally responsible for our own life/death)

The new system removed the XP debt in exchange for a death penalty that made us weak and stacked based on how many times we died. Time/Rest allows us to recover.

The 10% Bonus for Flawless. Is implemented differently in that the bonus criteria is met up until a person dies. The breakable, slaying and trap bonuses require us to obtain a specific count (Quest dependent) to earn that bonus.

My problem is I have to spend so much time telling newer players that "Hey it's ok, so we don't get the bonus this time" because of all of those people that make such a huge deal over the 10% flawless, but don't have time for the Trap and Breakable bonus even if all the traps/breakables needed are in the liner path they are following on their way to completions...

Many equate the 10% bonus as being 10% of the Total XP (190K OR 313,924 OR 437,850) of their life, when in reality it is only 10% of the base XP of the Quest. Dagolar's math is pretty spot on using the base 1K XP approach. The only part I disagree with is that when there are more bonuses in a quest, be it from Traps/Breakable/No Reentry or Optional Objectives, the smaller the impact the 10% bonus has.

Stuff happens, people can learn from their deaths. I try hard on all of my characters be they Melee to Arcane to prevent deaths not just my own, but other party members do not always share my philosophy and I've come to live with that ;).

Chai
06-19-2012, 05:30 PM
Why ppl complain about losing flawless 10% xp bonus, but hardly ever let rogues/artis get traps for the 15%?

XP/min, by powergamers who only enjoy playing 3% of the entire game, but feel the need to masochistically play through all levels of content repeatedly in order to refine each toon with a +1 here and a 5% boost there, which makes them slightly but not noticeably more effective in the 3% of the game they actually enjoy playing.

What the OP proposes would make a wonderful griefing tool, but would not realistically entice people to work together as a team. Heck, people dont do that often nowdays, but they still feel entitled to pee and moan when not working as a team results in 10% less XP.

Jay203
06-19-2012, 09:24 PM
I think you've seen some of my groups then...;)

i'm not sure
how often do i even group with you to begin with? :p

Dagolar
06-19-2012, 09:41 PM
Why ppl complain about losing flawless 10% xp bonus, but hardly ever let rogues/artis get traps for the 15%?

As someone who mostly plays rogue-types, I applaud your noting of this. :P

Flavilandile
06-20-2012, 02:44 AM
I remember many nights recovering from the XP Debt of the original system. What I miss about the system was how it drove people to quest more carefully employing tactics (Trips, stuns, sap, paralyzers and stat damage effects). I believe it fostered team work and the penalty went against the one that died (I always point that we are personally responsible for our own life/death)

It also enticed, those with the skill, knowledge and will to do so, to go into quests of a level that were way above the party highest level character. ( like going into VON 3 with a party of LVL 5/6 characters... who remember parties of LVL 8 characters farming gianthold quests and how we resented when they locked out the area to characters below level 10 )

Doing a quest, on normal, that is 3 or 4 level above the highest character level is a challenge nobody is willing to try nowadays... At the best people seems to be able to cope with is to go into a quest two leve lbelow their level, on elite ( which more or less ammount to doing a quest at level ).

Jay203
06-20-2012, 03:26 AM
It also enticed, those with the skill, knowledge and will to do so, to go into quests of a level that were way above the party highest level character. ( like going into VON 3 with a party of LVL 5/6 characters... who remember parties of LVL 8 characters farming gianthold quests and how we resented when they locked out the area to characters below level 10 )

Doing a quest, on normal, that is 3 or 4 level above the highest character level is a challenge nobody is willing to try nowadays... At the best people seems to be able to cope with is to go into a quest two leve lbelow their level, on elite ( which more or less ammount to doing a quest at level ).

good'o days, before the super inflation of everything :p

Eladiun
06-20-2012, 11:13 AM
BRING BACK THE HORDO EFFECT™!!!
To heck with the party penalty to XP...to heck with an X% penalty to XP...bring back NEGATIVE XP for dying!!! :D

Oh, those were the days with levels of "red bar" to make up before one could continue to level...especially like it was with the Level 10 Cap and we could go backwards as far as our own noobness could take us!


I'm all for the return of negative XP.

The good old days when a +1/2 loot weekend meant ransacking Wiz King on Elite and 2 ranks of negative levels by the time the weekend was over.

Krago
06-20-2012, 12:21 PM
I'm all for the return of negative XP.

The good old days when a +1/2 loot weekend meant ransacking Wiz King on Elite and 2 ranks of negative levels by the time the weekend was over.

Would kinda suck doing Shroud if it returned.

Tshober
06-20-2012, 01:32 PM
I can't tell if the OP is being serious or not. I'm hoping not.

This would be a programming nightmare, trying to design a program to be able to tell EXACTLY who gets the blame if someone in a party dies. Was it because the healer was getting a snack and wasn't at the keyboard? Was it because the FvS hireling ran around the corner to aggravate the mob? Was it due to lag? Did the tank ran too far down the hall and trigger the spinning traps that the rogue could have disabled? What if the rogue blew the trap and half the party wiped while trying to run through it?

UGH! I could probably list thousands of different scenarios, all of which would have to unerringly point to the one or two players responsible. No way in Shaverath am I signing this suggestion.

This.

/not signed

Flavilandile
06-20-2012, 01:34 PM
Would kinda suck doing Shroud if it returned.

Yes and no, because if the quest is designed well, the XP lost by the required death are covered by the total XP earned finishing the quest. ( and too bad for those that leave before completion )

biggin
06-21-2012, 07:45 AM
It's a 10% XP bonus not a death penalty and here's a clear comparison.

If you dont make your quota at work and miss out on your xmas bonus, you aren't getting a paycut.



I think that's the point some are making though. If I don't make my quota (die), I don't get my bonus. But if you are working in the other end of the building, I've told you 3 times to stop playing with that dynamite, you blow yourself up and then I lose my Xmas bonus? I'll **** on your grave.

If they ever do make the XP penalty (or however you want to classify it) personal instead of party wide then grouping with new players will get much better. If a 100 HP wizzy hits my lvl 13 LFM it won't matter as long as he hits me with haste at the entrance. He can run around yelling "EXCELSIOR!!!" while spamming Merfolk's and it wouldn't matter to anyone in the slightest. As it stands now, that same arcane will be declined 9/10 times. Not to mention it would help slow new players down to actually learn the tactics of playing this game.

I don't think I would like to see it the way it used to be however. Sitting in taverns for hours on end was not fun. If it is implemented, losing XP in that particular quest is good enough. A first or second lifer would hardly notice the drop but would extend the life another week or so which isn't a bad thing. IMO

Xynot2
06-21-2012, 08:48 AM
Immitating Arnold in Kindergarten Cop* Iss nada penalty.

Uska
06-21-2012, 09:18 AM
No it encourages team work and its not a penalty its a loss of a bonus so not the same thing at all

Krago
06-21-2012, 10:10 PM
Yes and no, because if the quest is designed well, the XP lost by the required death are covered by the total XP earned finishing the quest. ( and too bad for those that leave before completion )

Assuming you are still getting xp from the quest.

Flavilandile
06-22-2012, 08:41 AM
Assuming you are still getting xp from the quest.

Well as XP are received after completing each part, the Penalty from the required death to enter part 5 could be integrated into the XP given for completing part 5.

( While I'm a heavy proponent of the XP bonuses - for completing quests of a level way over the party level - that existed at that time, i'm not that fan of the XP debt, except for fond memories of the red bar. )