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jortann
06-18-2012, 06:50 PM
So is it? Or can it be awesome. I am guessing that since druids will be able to self heal, their raw DPS abilities will be gimp or everyone would be playing Druid in no time flat.

Or can it be done? Bear Form? Wolf Form? TWF with no form?

Do you multiclass? Roll up a Drunk? A Fruid? A Drubarian?


So, those of you who have tested it out on Llama-land what are your answers? Share your Druid wisdom with us!

fatherpirate
06-18-2012, 07:04 PM
that depends on how you do it....and there are 3 basic druid melee types

Bear
wolf
dex/str fighter

they can be gimped by bad choices



Druids + Melee
The ABSOLUTE things to remember

Druids have as many hitpoints as fighters
Druids BAB progression is the best out of the pure caster
Druids have a lot of personal buffs to help with melee
Druids are the ONLY class that has combat moves in the form of spells
Druids self heal somewhat

Druids armor choices are very restrictive
Druids can use shields (wood) or wood tower shields with masters touch spell...which they have

Memnir
06-18-2012, 07:09 PM
Druids can melee... okay. I'd say they are on par with a well built battle-cleric, probably a bit better if you use bear or wolf form. However, I find those forums to be exceedingly poor in terms of animations and immersion. Some people love em, I really don't. You sacrifice spell casting prowess in terms of animal form abilities requiring spell slots and increased cool-downs on all spells while wild shaped.



I very much prefer a caster Druid - but the class can indeed melee decently if you build them for it properly.

Osma77
06-18-2012, 09:44 PM
Animal forms generaly reduce the maximum damage you can obtain significantly while also cutting down on the ability to spam damage spells. In exchange you get a number of build specific abilities depending on the animal. Bears get lots of ac/dr/intimidate while wolves get a number of debuffs/lockdowns such as paralize or freeze. A lot of how you build a melee animal depends on your enhancements such as blood moon, but in general you dont need to treat them like barbarians with massive dps. (even with wolves ability to attack quickly, it isnt as high of a dps as any properly built twf in either damage or speed).

I play my wolf as a front-line anti-bard. I wield a good paralize/nightmear/slay living/deconstruction weapon (or anything else that works on proc like lightning strike or ooze sunder) in my main hand, while using a good heavy shield in my off hand, increasing my ability to take a hit. Toss up some buffs, throw off a regen, snowslide behind the group, let the tank take aggro, and start blowing earthquake/ice storm while biting them from behind getting sneak attack damage and paralizing them in the ice storm. Entangle/spike growth at low levels.

In my build at least, if your not making it easier for the barbarian to cut them down, then you not doing your job. You are NOT going to get high kill list unless you kill steal, and you are not going to be on the top of the dps charts. But if you do it right, you will make any battles a LOT smoother while making the clerics job MUCH easier with your mass hots and weregonnnadie!!! heals.

butcheredspirit
06-18-2012, 09:57 PM
Druids have as many hitpoints as fighters
Druids BAB progression is the best out of the pure caster
Druids have a lot of personal buffs to help with melee
Druids are the ONLY class that has combat moves in the form of spells
Druids self heal somewhat

Druids can use shields (wood) or wood tower shields with masters touch spell...which they have



Druids have d8 hit die, same as cleric and favored soul - slightly less than a fighter.

There are 3 types of base attack bonus progression. Druids are on par with favored souls, clerics, bards etc.

Druids do have some nice melee buffs.
I would however be looking into UMD or clickies to take advantage of other spell casters melee buffs, most notably divine power.

I would expect druids healing would be powerful enough not only for self healing, but to keep the whole group up.

....At what level do druids gain access to master's touch?

decease
06-18-2012, 11:12 PM
Druids have d8 hit die, same as cleric and favored soul - slightly less than a fighter.

There are 3 types of base attack bonus progression. Druids are on par with favored souls, clerics, bards etc.

Druids do have some nice melee buffs.
I would however be looking into UMD or clickies to take advantage of other spell casters melee buffs, most notably divine power.

I would expect druids healing would be powerful enough not only for self healing, but to keep the whole group up.

....At what level do druids gain access to master's touch?

their healing ability are not as good as fvs or cleric. but they are better then bard healing(without scroll/wand).. the thing is if a druid decide to go melee wise using any of the wildshape, they will not be able to heal anyone buy themself. as the spell cool down have been tripled. though they would make decent sub healer.. when mh are down..

fatherpirate
06-18-2012, 11:12 PM
Druids have d8 hit die, same as cleric and favored soul - slightly less than a fighter.
***********
WRONG - Yes they have a D8 BUT they get 4 or 5 druid toughness enhancements that go with the racial ones.
Clerics get like zero, FS get 2 I think. The devil is in the details.
**********

There are 3 types of base attack bonus progression. Druids are on par with favored souls, clerics, bards etc.

Druids do have some nice melee buffs.
I would however be looking into UMD or clickies to take advantage of other spell casters melee buffs, most notably divine power.
*********
druids get spell based combat moves that use very little mana that double or x4 standard damage with
short cool downs and include hard to resist knock down or bleeds
divine power is not exactly that good
********

I would expect druids healing would be powerful enough not only for self healing, but to keep the whole group up.

....At what level do druids gain access to master's touch?
******
level 1 spell I think <<< ERROR, my mistake, druids don't get that without a arcane splash
******

Detton
06-18-2012, 11:20 PM
As it is on lammania right now, druids do not get Master's Touch at all, unless Turbine decides to add it at a later point. It's not in their spellbooks.

decease
06-18-2012, 11:23 PM
As it is on lammania right now, druids do not get Master's Touch at all, unless Turbine decides to add it at a later point. It's not in their spellbooks.

druid don't need that spell.. their form damage dice are fixed with the form. so the only thing that really matter is the enchantment on the weapon..

TreknaQudane
06-19-2012, 12:43 AM
******
level 1 spell I think
******

Druids and FvS get the same toughness enhancements

They do not get Master's Touch.

Those special moves do extra base weapon damage.. not double or trip damage... +2[W] in wolf form anywhere from 2 to 12 damage, usually 7.

butcheredspirit
06-19-2012, 12:49 AM
the thing is if a druid decide to go melee wise using any of the wildshape, they will not be able to heal anyone buy themself. as the spell cool down have been tripled. though they would make decent sub healer.. when mh are down..

Yes I suppose I can understand that now.

I didn't really think of that, as I'd be unlikely to use form for melee power often when grouped.
I like to be able to do several things at once, even if it means melee dps may be a bit lower.

Veriden
06-19-2012, 01:51 AM
Rule of thumb with all the changes. All melee are gimped now.

fatherpirate
06-19-2012, 02:42 AM
my error on masters touch
it was from an arty splash

my bag

decease
06-19-2012, 09:50 AM
Yes I suppose I can understand that now.

I didn't really think of that, as I'd be unlikely to use form for melee power often when grouped.
I like to be able to do several things at once, even if it means melee dps may be a bit lower.

the sad thing is you do more damage without the form XD

when in form both twf and thf are not available.. though you do get to attack 30% faster.. with main hand weapon only..

so you are doing 130% your base damage..
in twf with 3 feat you do 180% base damage..
and in thf... hard to calculate this one.. but it is 1.5X your str mod to damage.. also glancing blow which is about 20% of your base damage..

jortann
06-19-2012, 12:16 PM
If you take a weapon proficiency, say Khopeshes, does it break your druid oath to use them?

Does anyone have a melee druid build idea that they want to post?

Memnir
06-19-2012, 12:19 PM
If you take a weapon proficiency, say Khopeshes, does it break your druid oath to use them?

Does anyone have a melee druid build idea that they want to post?

I don't believe weapons break Oath.

Expalphalog
06-19-2012, 12:41 PM
I play my wolf as a front-line anti-bard. I wield a good paralize/nightmear/slay living/deconstruction weapon (or anything else that works on proc like lightning strike or ooze sunder) in my main hand, while using a good heavy shield in my off hand, increasing my ability to take a hit. Toss up some buffs, throw off a regen, snowslide behind the group, let the tank take aggro, and start blowing earthquake/ice storm while biting them from behind getting sneak attack damage and paralizing them in the ice storm. Entangle/spike growth at low levels.

This is exactly what I want to play. Care to post some pointers for this build?

shareplz
06-19-2012, 12:45 PM
Rule of thumb with all the changes. All melee are gimped now.

NOW??????

melee were gimped around the same time people realized PM and WF wizards could heal themselves

Arkat
06-19-2012, 01:04 PM
I don't believe weapons break Oath.

Correct. Metal weapons don't break the Druid's Oath. Metal shields and metal armors do.

jortann
06-19-2012, 02:03 PM
So, how about this for a melee Druid build... BEAR STYLE!...

Horc
Druid 20

Stats
STR 20
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 6
WIS 14
CHA 6

Feats
Toughness
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Power Attack
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery

Weapons
Epic Kronzeks Cruelty and a shield??


Any thoughts?

TreknaQudane
06-19-2012, 05:32 PM
So, how about this for a melee Druid build... BEAR STYLE!...

Horc
Druid 20

Stats
STR 20
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 6
WIS 14
CHA 6

Feats
Toughness
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Power Attack
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery

Weapons
Epic Kronzeks Cruelty and a shield??


Any thoughts?

I'd take Empower Healing or Maxmimize so your self healing is a bit more potent, probably drop Improved Shield Mastery.

Dagolar
06-19-2012, 08:23 PM
Druids seem more or less comparable to Favored Souls in direct combat ability and overall nature- I've yet to see anything that really edges Druid above FvS in that.

A lot of how each of the two classes will be able to function as melee builds depends on how Nature's Warrior and Divine Avenger perform.

As that comparison suggests, a druid combatant, just as a Favored Soul, benefits from increased versatility over the battlefield, self-healing and buffing, etc, at the cost of some combat ability.

There are definitely some interesting builds present within the spells and abilities available to the class, that time may worm out into being quite potent.

And, regardless- they ought at least make for fun and interesting builds ~_^

Talias006
06-19-2012, 10:09 PM
******
level 1 spell I think
******

Since you put your remarks inside another quote, I have just this one to address.

Druids do NOT get the same amount of HP as a Fighter.
They have d8's instead of d10's.

Toughness is not an issue as guess what?
Fighter's also gain Toughness enhancements with the Feat.
Up to 4 like all others that can take Class based Toughness enhancements.

What gets you more HP is choosing a Race that has better Toughness enhancement access.
Human and Half-Elf is limited to 2, unless you choose the +1 Con enhancement, then can make it up to 3.
Only Dwarf and Warforged are allowed up to Racial Toughness 4.
All others are bottle-necked at Racial Toughness 2.

And, just because it has bearings in this discussion, Animal Forms don't care what weapons you have in your hands, except for their special abilities.
Bear/Wolf have their own set of weapon characteristics that will only add stuff like Flaming effects to the damage.
The form doesn't care about the weapon damage itself or the threat range or the multiplier, only the extras.

Osma77
06-20-2012, 02:18 AM
Did some testing with druid wolf/fighter.

While the base damage of a winter wolf still completly sucks, it isn't as bad as I used to think. Considering that it takes 3 feats to use two weapon fighting, it isn't unreasonable to have 3 natural fighting feats. With fighter levels i could easily throw in improved shield mastery for the extra defence and doublestrikes, while getting tower shield feat as a bonus, not to mention more weapon choices.

With the large % of doublestrike (yes, probably still lower then twf, but doable), i was getting a LOT of attacks as a winter wolf. About 10 min of testing before bed showed aprox 4-7 attacks per second. Each attack was only doing around 25 damage (base), but with improved critical bludgeoning i was seeing a LOT of crits. (Winter wolf base crit range is 18-20). Since crit range of winter wolf is 3x iirc, i was seeing my base damage go from 25 per hit, to over 110 damage on crits, and was usually getting at least one crit per second. Worked out to around 160-180 per second on average (keep in mind, this was from my sleepy memory. testing needed.)

These numbers came with 3 levels of blood moon, the stance that increases attack speed after kills, and in winter wolf form with 3 natural fighting and improved shield mastery. Using the new dagger that give improved para, slay living, and -wis on hit, and i was also getting -con on hit although im not sure from where. End result was very fast attacks that paralized, lowered con and wis, and occasionally slayed target. With good (not great) wisdom i was able to land my special abilities much more often (snowslide freeze, although they broke out quickly) so between that and paralize they died quite easily and with little effort. No mana was wasted on spells other then snowslide, buffs, and heals. Solo with wolf minion, quickly dead air elemental, and no hire.

LupusVai
06-20-2012, 07:38 AM
Did some testing with druid wolf/fighter.

While the base damage of a winter wolf still completly sucks, it isn't as bad as I used to think. Considering that it takes 3 feats to use two weapon fighting, it isn't unreasonable to have 3 natural fighting feats. With fighter levels i could easily throw in improved shield mastery for the extra defence and doublestrikes, while getting tower shield feat as a bonus, not to mention more weapon choices.

With the large % of doublestrike (yes, probably still lower then twf, but doable), i was getting a LOT of attacks as a winter wolf. About 10 min of testing before bed showed aprox 4-7 attacks per second. Each attack was only doing around 25 damage (base), but with improved critical bludgeoning i was seeing a LOT of crits. (Winter wolf base crit range is 18-20). Since crit range of winter wolf is 3x iirc, i was seeing my base damage go from 25 per hit, to over 110 damage on crits, and was usually getting at least one crit per second. Worked out to around 160-180 per second on average (keep in mind, this was from my sleepy memory. testing needed.)

These numbers came with 3 levels of blood moon, the stance that increases attack speed after kills, and in winter wolf form with 3 natural fighting and improved shield mastery. Using the new dagger that give improved para, slay living, and -wis on hit, and i was also getting -con on hit although im not sure from where. End result was very fast attacks that paralized, lowered con and wis, and occasionally slayed target. With good (not great) wisdom i was able to land my special abilities much more often (snowslide freeze, although they broke out quickly) so between that and paralize they died quite easily and with little effort. No mana was wasted on spells other then snowslide, buffs, and heals. Solo with wolf minion, quickly dead air elemental, and no hire.

That dagger has wounding on it as well as wisdom damage. Was thinking that it would be a nice wolf weapon.

As for the crit range being 18-20, that's just what it says on the winter wolf description. If you unequipped your weapon and look at the inventory drop down for weapon details (so it says unarmed it will show a crit range of 19-20 rather than 18-20) Testing showed that it was only critting on a 19-20 as well. Which one is correct I'm not sure, as when i noted it on this forum as a bug, a dev just said good to know. Which didn't really answer which one was correct. http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4506948&postcount=12

ThreeEyedBob
06-20-2012, 07:59 AM
How would a half-orc druid with LitII GSQuarterstaff do in forms?