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deahamlet
06-18-2012, 04:02 PM
Some destinies are getting continuous developer feedback and fixes and some get almost nothing. This is completely unfair and lame. Some destinies are strong and some are super weak. Some started iffy but with the tender loving care and communication from developer turned into something a lot better.

Whoever is in charge of the exalted angel, you should be ashamed. Do you even play a FvS? Or a caster cleric? Do you even read those threads much, cause it sure doesnt seem that way. And considering the amazing strides in other destinies, you do have a model of what good involvement can lead to.

smatt
06-18-2012, 04:17 PM
It because some people scream louder and make their cases better. Look at how those poor monks don't have anything and are so weak :D They have screamed constantly since the class actually WAS weak when it first came out, and even after it becamce a VERY powerful class, they still scream and get a new cookie every other week :o

This is too be expected though, look at how uneven the Pre's were implemented, some still aren't finished or fixed after almost 3 years.... It's game wide, and it's just Devs playing favorites.. It's how life goes..... I'm sure they will all be evenly powered by U-26 or so :confused: Wait not it's *Soon :D

Drwaz99
06-18-2012, 04:19 PM
Some destinies are getting continuous developer feedback and fixes and some get almost nothing. This is completely unfair and lame. Some destinies are strong and some are super weak. Some started iffy but with the tender loving care and communication from developer turned into something a lot better.

Whoever is in charge of the exalted angel, you should be ashamed. Do you even play a FvS? Or a caster cleric? Do you even read those threads much, cause it sure doesnt seem that way. And considering the amazing strides in other destinies, you do have a model of what good involvement can lead to.

I believe (and I certainly could be wrong) that Eladrin was the one commenting on that ED. I'm not sure that makes him the dev responsible.

deahamlet
06-19-2012, 12:25 AM
It because some people scream louder and make their cases better. Look at how those poor monks don't have anything and are so weak :D They have screamed constantly since the class actually WAS weak when it first came out, and even after it becamce a VERY powerful class, they still scream and get a new cookie every other week :o

This is too be expected though, look at how uneven the Pre's were implemented, some still aren't finished or fixed after almost 3 years.... It's game wide, and it's just Devs playing favorites.. It's how life goes..... I'm sure they will all be evenly powered by U-26 or so :confused: Wait not it's *Soon :D

No Tod sets, unfinished pre (yes, 2 tiers is UNfinished), still waiting on the other 2 pres, and now this lame excuse of a destiny.

What, not enough complaints and posts on the forums on "where are the healers"? Do we need more excuses to just bail out on the much unloved divines? Meh!

nivarch
06-19-2012, 03:19 AM
I find the feedback in the destiny thread very very lackluster.
Some people were constructive, but a lot just said its "lackluster" or "lame".

To give constructive feedback on a destiny, you should explain what you don't like about it, why you don't like it, and give suggestions ; all while keeping in mind the theme of the destiny.

And you didn't do better than the others, actually even worse since your only post in the thread is:


My FvS isn't taking this lame tree. Magister or draconic for DCs. Sadly neither of those provide WIS. this is beyond sad, along with still no tod FvS rings and a whole bunch of nothing in terms of feedback.

Lame.


Also some destinies such as fatesinger or shiradi got much more feedback sure. It depend on the dev in charge ; but also depends on the destiny.
Fatesinger for example is by far the most complex destiny now. It has to cover many aspect since bards are the most versatile class in the game.


(I'm not saying exalted angel is any good, I didn't really have a serious look at the ED)

Shade
06-19-2012, 05:17 AM
It's because of the devs assigned to each, and there overall responsibilities.

Breca for example only has one on his plate (Fatesinger), and being a relatively new dev, I don't imagine they tossed a lot of other responsibilities his way either, So he had a lot of time to take player feedback and create whats imo the most complete and polished destiny.

Simarly, Feather_of_Sun only has one on his plate: Grandmaster.. Thus that one got a ton of attention and works very well. Very few bugs from what the monk players tell me, and my limited testing showed.

Vargouille on the other hand was much busier, he has three: Shiradi, Sentinel and Fury. Plus I think he was also working on the Greensteel deconstruct system, so he was a bit busier and could not devote too much attention too them. Though overall i think he did pretty well considering: Shradi is nearly bug free, Sentinel works well enough for what it is, And well fury.. Well we already heard enough from me on fury.

Genasi, like Vargouille, was assigned three: both of the very complex caster ones: Magister and Draconic, and Shadowdancer. Plus being a veteran dev he is likely also loaded up with a ton of other tasks. He's traditionally been in charge of most named items and some other systems too. So he worked very hard on making them good, but was obviously really busy so could only get so much done.

That leaves Eladrin.. He had Dreadnaught and Exalted angel. Being he is the lead designer and DDO:Motu in the big picture terms is essentially his vision for the most part.. He was obviously extremely busy on the entire project.. So absolutely zero changes were made to Dreadnaught (luckily it was quite a good balanced ED to begin with, though somewhat bugged) and very few were on done on exalted angel.)

deahamlet
06-19-2012, 07:45 AM
Thanx for the explanation Shade.

And as to feedback, a lot of detailed stuff I wanted to say was already said by others in the locked beta and now and there was no fix and no feedback. I can go on a long detailed rant of what I don't like about exalted, but I'd repeat others and what is the point?

This thread is a general dismay/disappointment/anger thread.

Vargouille
06-19-2012, 11:33 AM
And as to feedback, a lot of detailed stuff I wanted to say was already said by others in the locked beta and now and there was no fix and no feedback. I can go on a long detailed rant of what I don't like about exalted, but I'd repeat others and what is the point?

A voice alone in the wilderness is one guy complaining. When everyone dislikes something, we're far more likely to change that thing.

Specific feedback from each player's point of view is incredibly helpful to us. It's also much more helpful to say things in your own words rather than quoting some other giant post or saying you agree with other players. It shows you are familiar with what you are talking about, possibly shows who has actually played with it, and that the details matter, not just that you hate the entire concept, though that's valid feedback if actually given quite explicitly and with the reasons why. If you hate most of it but like one thing, say so to keep the baby from going out with the bathwater.

It can't be emphasized enough, in general: Giving your personal feedback on specific abilities and items is incredibly helpful.

Drwaz99
06-19-2012, 11:38 AM
A voice alone in the wilderness is one guy complaining. When everyone dislikes something, we're far more likely to change that thing.

Specific feedback from each player's point of view is incredibly helpful to us. It's also much more helpful to say things in your own words rather than quoting some other giant post or saying you agree with other players. It shows you are familiar with what you are talking about, possibly shows who has actually played with it, and that the details matter, not just that you hate the entire concept, though that's valid feedback if actually given quite explicitly and with the reasons why. If you hate most of it but like one thing, say so to keep the baby from going out with the bathwater.

It can't be emphasized enough, in general: Giving your personal feedback on specific abilities and items is incredibly helpful.

Absolutely correct..but could you tell us (or have MF EL or someone who can say if you can't) let us know when the cut off off feedback is? I know the server closes on Thursday, but eventually you just have to lock it down, bug fix/stability test/send to QA. There's nothing worse than having people take their time and post thoughtful constructive criticism and then never hear anything back only to find out later it wouldn't have made much a difference..

Thanks for you hard work (while I still don't agree with a lot, but your effort is highly commendable)! :)

PS, and I know feedback is always appreciated, but at some point, these thread are going to be nuked, notes lost..it happens

Eladrin
06-19-2012, 11:48 AM
Absolutely correct..but could you tell us (or have MF EL or someone who can say if you can't) let us know when the cut off off feedback is?
Never.

Even if it doesn't make it for launch day, post the feedback, it might make it into patch. Or the next update.

Drwaz99
06-19-2012, 11:58 AM
Never.

Even if it doesn't make it for launch day, post the feedback, it might make it into patch. Or the next update.

I guess I should have expected that answer.

orakio
06-19-2012, 12:19 PM
A voice alone in the wilderness is one guy complaining. When everyone dislikes something, we're far more likely to change that thing.

Specific feedback from each player's point of view is incredibly helpful to us. It's also much more helpful to say things in your own words rather than quoting some other giant post or saying you agree with other players. It shows you are familiar with what you are talking about, possibly shows who has actually played with it, and that the details matter, not just that you hate the entire concept, though that's valid feedback if actually given quite explicitly and with the reasons why. If you hate most of it but like one thing, say so to keep the baby from going out with the bathwater.

It can't be emphasized enough, in general: Giving your personal feedback on specific abilities and items is incredibly helpful.

In that case, reiterating two of my observations about the tree from closed beta forums.

1) The Ardor/Fervor mechanic is great imo in it's buildup mechanic but i still think that it would be best suited to provide like boosts to the same element. Meaning positive->positive boost, light->light boost. As it is the only time that a divine really utilizes both lines is typically when solo'ing or in small parties. For raiding situations the boosts provided are largely un/underused and it makes it feel like you are trying to force a multi-role mechanic and extra complexity to classes that already tend to have a lot to do.

2) The cast time of Divine Wrath is too long, please allow it to be effected by quicken. In addition the other side of the blood and radiance line, for the % stun and large strike in tier6(forget the ability name) in melee have little or nothing to do with positive energy boosts and healing. It makes that side seem even stranger is it is focusing seperately on when you heal, then adding evoker based bonus, and then finishing with a melee ability. As for recommendations on how to fix... not quite as sure here.

Overall it feels like the tree is in parts trying to help anyone selected EA be a better evoker and melee and healer at the same time, and I feel that there are places (as mentioned above) where the mechanics of the EA get overly complicated trying to deliver all of it at once. I would like to see the option to specialize in 1 or 2 of the features without being directly tied into the third, so that something like a dps paladin or melee/evoker FvS can focus on the evoker+melee aspects without having an awkwarding cure based mechanic thrown in there. Or having to spam renewal+avenging light every few seconds to build stacks. Especially if there is a more pure healer oriented or evoker oriented ED planned for the divine sphere for a later date.

maddmatt70
06-19-2012, 12:25 PM
Some destinies are getting continuous developer feedback and fixes and some get almost nothing. This is completely unfair and lame. Some destinies are strong and some are super weak. Some started iffy but with the tender loving care and communication from developer turned into something a lot better.

Whoever is in charge of the exalted angel, you should be ashamed. Do you even play a FvS? Or a caster cleric? Do you even read those threads much, cause it sure doesnt seem that way. And considering the amazing strides in other destinies, you do have a model of what good involvement can lead to.

I disagree with you as I think the Exalted Angel is fine for what it is specifically a destiny oriented toward Healbots, light damage specced divines, and melee clerics, and utility flavored general dps paladins. One observation that I should have made was there should be a bump to blade barrior damage in this destiny and perhaps fire damage as well as I would like this to be a nice destiny for divine nukers in essence. For caster or dc oriented clerics/fvs I do not think this should be the destiny of choice but rather the magistrate should have a wisdom option and +1 to divine caster levels. Similiarly melee oriented divines might prefer a different destiny..

legendlore
06-19-2012, 12:55 PM
A voice alone in the wilderness is one guy complaining. When everyone dislikes something, we're far more likely to change that thing.

While I understand that immediate customer satisfaction plays a role in the feed back. I don't really agree with this approach, it means that less played classes won't get a voice in the game and is likely to be continued to be ignored, both by developers and players. Since they don't get taken into consideration in decisions and don't have the vocal majority to do anything about it.



For caster or dc oriented clerics/fvs I do not think this should be the destiny of choice but rather the magistrate should have a wisdom option and +1 to divine caster levels. Similiarly melee oriented divines might prefer a different destiny..

Agree. My preferred solution would have been generic caster level increases for level 21-25. That would help with doing some Mystic theurge flavor builds as well.

LiquidShadow
06-19-2012, 02:05 PM
Never.

Even if it doesn't make it for launch day, post the feedback, it might make it into patch. Or the next update.

i hope for this... especially for exalted angel

LiquidShadow
06-19-2012, 02:12 PM
I disagree with you as I think the Exalted Angel is fine for what it is specifically a destiny oriented toward Healbots, light damage specced divines, and melee clerics, and utility flavored general dps paladins. One observation that I should have made was there should be a bump to blade barrior damage in this destiny and perhaps fire damage as well as I would like this to be a nice destiny for divine nukers in essence. For caster or dc oriented clerics/fvs I do not think this should be the destiny of choice but rather the magistrate should have a wisdom option and +1 to divine caster levels. Similiarly melee oriented divines might prefer a different destiny..

might prefer?
seriously?
there is no other way atm... melee oriented divine is still divine... there is nearly nothing worth using that boosts melee type characters in this destiny. smites are weaker than heroic ones and their recharging time/cooldown is just too long to use effectively. there wasnt any bonuses to hit or dmg either...

and that bladebarrier extra dmg... it could be added as passive to some melee smite line

Lighti
06-19-2012, 04:08 PM
So why havent the people that have been calling for Exhalted Angel tree to be improved and Ascendance be made a Toggle like PM forms been listnened to?

deahamlet
06-19-2012, 04:29 PM
So why havent the people that have been calling for Exhalted Angel tree to be improved and Ascendance be made a Toggle like PM forms been listnened to?

Cause despite what is being said nobody was really listening much. Nor saying much in response.

I'd even have liked something like "no, that's too OP, because of X, Y, Z, we can't do it". But... nothing.

SableShadow
06-19-2012, 04:32 PM
Never.

Even if it doesn't make it for launch day, post the feedback, it might make it into patch. Or the next update.

"Carthage must be destroyed."

Also, buff elves.

walkingwolfmike
06-19-2012, 11:38 PM
It's because of the devs assigned to each, and there overall responsibilities.

Breca for example only has one on his plate (Fatesinger),

Simarly, Feather_of_Sun only has one on his plate: Grandmaster.

Vargouille on the other hand was much busier, he has three: Shiradi, Sentinel and Fury. Plus I think he was also working on the Greensteel deconstruct system, so he was a bit busier and could not devote too much attention too them.

Genasi, like Vargouille, was assigned three: both of the very complex caster ones: Magister and Draconic, and Shadowdancer. Plus being a veteran dev he is likely also loaded up with a ton of other tasks. He's traditionally been in charge of most named items and some other systems too.

That leaves Eladrin.. He had Dreadnaught and Exalted angel. Being he is the lead designer and DDO:Motu in the big picture terms is essentially his vision for the most part.. He was obviously extremely busy on the entire project.

If this is the case, perhaps it would be the LOGICAL thing to do and not assign Epic Destinies to a DEV(S) whoa re allready very busy. ESPECIALLY with the Divine Destinies, seeing as how divines haven't gotten much love lately.

AbyssalMage
06-20-2012, 01:28 AM
Never.

Even if it doesn't make it for launch day, post the feedback, it might make it into patch. Or the next update.
Give a person hope and they will continue to suffer because tomorrow will be better.

I really wish I could find the actual quote and who used it.

phalaeo
06-21-2012, 12:51 AM
Whoever is in charge of the exalted angel, you should be ashamed. Do you even play a FvS? Or a caster cleric? Do you even read those threads much, cause it sure doesnt seem that way. And considering the amazing strides in other destinies, you do have a model of what good involvement can lead to.

Here's my say.

EA sucks. As in completely not interested. Does not make me one iota more excited to play my many Divines. It's just a bunch of clicky micromanaging that would be severely difficult for most people to maintain at any level of efficiency in a raid setting.

I don't know when they're going to get it. You've heard the myth that Clerics are only logged onto to help flag guildies, cause... nobody likes playing Clerics, do they? Surprise, there- yes, some of us consider them our "home" class, running multiple Clerics. and spending a s**tload of time building, gearing, TRing, and above all PLAYING them.

The Cleric playerbase has been overwhelming in responding that we already have enough clicky micromanaging to do. It's like it's somehow verboten to give a Divine even a taste of something powerful .... no wait! You can, but make them work themselves silly trying to keep up with the rotating Ardor/Light windows of buff scrutinizing, We'll be so busy watching timers on when to cast our next cure/light spell, that there will be little time for actually playing the game!

Give us better options. Give us options for melee oriented Clerics and Offensive Caster Clerics, because right now, I feel like Turbine is choosing to not acknowledge our existence.

My suggestion is this:
Do not release EA in it's current state. Get some devs in here for structured discussion, so you guys can hear what we (the players of Divines) think we really need.

If the people who raise a stink around here get things done, I'll be the sacrificial stink-maker.

phalaeo
06-21-2012, 01:53 AM
Here we go:

Exalted Angel: Looking for suggestions from active Clerics and FvS. Please contribute what you'd like to see removed, why, and what you would like to see implemented and why. Tell a little about your Divine and playstyle if you want. If you think a part of EA in it's current form is not in line with your expectations/needs, please tell why.

Abilities that would make my Divines more efficient/powerful
1. Ability to cast cure/heal spells at reduced cooldown. You guys have it set so the bonus is to the cure hitting harder (spell power). Often times, when I'm in a difficult raid, I wish that the cooldowns on my cures went faster. Yes, you need beefy enough heals to make a difference, but timing and cooldown are just as big a part as having giant heals, if not more so.

Ideas


Stance that allows you 1 sec. reduction in CD timers... maybe even just for Single/Mass Cures. Or activatable- reduced cooldown for 45 seconds, eats one Turn.
A chance (5%) to have a cure spell fire, but not produce a CD. Sort of like how Artis can keep a charge in a wand, we get to keep no CD 5% of the time.
A New spell that might work on the cast time of Close Wounds, but beefed up to endgame requirements. You can say that's Unyielding, but Unyielding has a decently long cast time. Make it an ability to cast instantaneously and heal the target for 140 HP. Not affected by healing amp or life magic lines/items, etc. 5x rest. Or 4. This idea is nifty because it becomes a strategic tool in the Divine's arsenal. Have it be 10SP, Xtimes per rest.

2. Speaking of speedy...
Most melee clerics worth their salt cast DF/DP/DM. Give us a perk to make this less tedious. Bards have some options to extend their songs by 20%, give us a perk and increase the duration of these buffs by 20%. Also, if you have the Divine Might enhancement, it is now quickenable, and grants an additional 2 to damage rolls, or something like that.





3. This "stacks of cure/light" business


Anything that makes more work for a divine is not fun... especially in Epics/healing intensive content. Personally, I'm already handing out buffs, remembering my own clickies (what is with the slow cast animation on most clickies? Afraid the game will explode if we get that GH one second faster?) I'm self sufficient. I carry Displacement/Hjaste clickies, Jump belts and cookies, Stoneskin clickies, Ardor clickies, Brilliance clickies, Litanys, Vile Blasphemies... the list goes on and on. Don't forget the DP/DF/DM clickies on my melee Divine. I do not want to micromanage timers that are constantly shifting as people apply new buffs.



Ideas:


Get rid of this system. I want an epic moment, but I don't want to have to feel like a flight coordinator at O'Hare to get 20 seconds of epicness. Just ditch it, and restart.



4. Caster Clerics Exist.


We would like to have a few more options for becoming more effective. If I'm on a divine, and I have ground out a good assortment of raid and epic gear, doing everything possible to max WIS and make my spells potent, then I should be rewarded. Not asking for anything like Arcane Spellsurge, but.... something, anything acknowledging the fact that Divines cast too and might like a new timed damage ability, or one that enhances an existing spell or school of magic. Just throwing it out here--- you have mastered the art of Divine Punishment. The Divine Punishments you cast will now deal 5d10 force damage on each crit. Or will now have a 2/3/4% chance of dealing 5d10 force on a random tic.


5. Ways to make Healing Epic (or Epicer)


Lots of people use scrolls to stretch their SP... why not add a bonus to outgoing scroll healing in the ED? We already don't get as much of a bonus as Bards and Rogues do off of heal scrolls... make them hit for more at a cost. 7%/13%/18%. 1AP each line.


Perhaps a line to give a chance for scrolls to crit? 5/10/15% chance to crit a scroll for a 1.25 multiplier.


6. Other things


What about a attenuated sprint boost? 15 secs., 3/rest. Not as good as a full sprint boost or wings, but I'd take it.


Additional turns per level of ED? Bards get passive extra songs...


This might not go over so well, but... Wisdom mod used for UMD. We'd still only get half ranks, but UMD is really handy on a divine, and a sacrifice to get.


Or.... Shadowdancer gets a Shadow Walk SLA as well as a DDoor SLA. Why not a Teleport SLA for us?


Light Shield.... same principle as Fire Shield Cold/Hot?






Look, some of these ideas may be good. Some may outright suck. It's all brainstorming, simply because I'd like to see more tweaking and conversation before EA goes live. Will post again after I've given myself more time to think on what I've presented.

red_cardinal
06-21-2012, 02:18 AM
Hard work is appreciated...

But you can't address hard work as having to much on your plate and then swallow large chunks of unchewed food. Your stomach struggles later and you need pills.

Basically, it's your manager's fault.

*edit* From my perspective, working on multiple tasks simultaneously doesn't work. If it can't be done in 5 min, other tasks are to be delayed. One dev is only a one person. If he has to think how to balance things out -> do the math on paper, tinker with the possibilities and still write code and test basic functioning, it's a problem when doing it on more tasks. Concentration drops, focus drops, it's easier to forget things and if it's a crunch time all the time, well... it's a bug factory.

nivarch
06-21-2012, 04:08 AM
snip

I'm going to keep it short.
You stated what you'd like to get, while not trying to fit into the whole "exalted angel" theme.
You even talk of turns in a destiny inspired by FvS...

There are some good idea in there they just don't fit thematically imo.
Anyway you also are in the wrong thread. This kind of feedback should be in the exalted angel thread.

deahamlet
06-21-2012, 07:27 AM
I'm going to keep it short.
You stated what you'd like to get, while not trying to fit into the whole "exalted angel" theme.
You even talk of turns in a destiny inspired by FvS...

There are some good idea in there they just don't fit thematically imo.
Anyway you also are in the wrong thread. This kind of feedback should be in the exalted angel thread.

That's one of the major problems.... this is the only divine caster destiny and it does a poor job AND it totally ignores differences between clerics and FvS.

Anyway, doesn't matter where it's written, feedback of any shape to the suggestions has not been incoming.


I agree with whoever said that being busy is no bloody excuse for shoddy product.
Whether it's the manager's fault, the developer's fault, the idea is turbine seriously dropped the ball on some destinies. I'm rather disappointed in exalted angel the most, but magister is kind of a close second. I just think ea sucks more for a caster divine than magister sucks for a pale master. EA has gotten some great suggestions and feedback in the old and new thread and there's been close to nothing useful in response.

Here's the thing... If no response just meant "read, adapt, fix, tweak but don't post in forums" I'd be okayish. Not happy, but okayish. But when it means there's still bugs, complaints and suggestions were not incorporated.... I'm miffed. I love my divine, give her some love!