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Kabaon
06-15-2012, 05:34 PM
Tested it, works ok. Still wish it hit more than 6 mobs, but barely noticed the 1 min cooldown.

Mind you the content I tried it in was King's Forest/some grave quest (forget the name) so it could be less effective than I realized.

Also, Pale Masters are fixed :)

Drekisen
06-15-2012, 05:38 PM
Tested it, works ok. Still wish it hit more than 6 mobs, but barely noticed the 1 min cooldown.

Mind you the content I tried it in was King's Forest/some grave quest (forget the name) so it could be less effective than I realized.

Also, Pale Masters are fixed :)

Is this change only for Epic HARD & ELITE or does this effect Wail overall.

Kabaon
06-15-2012, 05:39 PM
Overall

Azre
06-15-2012, 06:05 PM
Does it ticks on constructs/undead?.

Btw, what do you mean PM's are fixed?, don't tell me they changed something else lol.

DeafeningWhisper
06-15-2012, 06:22 PM
Does it ticks on constructs/undead?.

Btw, what do you mean PM's are fixed?, don't tell me they changed something else lol.

Their aura no longer kills them amongst other things.

Drwaz99
06-15-2012, 06:42 PM
No it did nothing to any of the undead in Kings Forest (immune).

Kabaon
06-15-2012, 07:06 PM
Yeah it only effects things that are living (wf in Ebberon will prolly still be effected) but actual constructs/undead will be immune.

It's not implosion after all, it just acts like it

oweieie
06-15-2012, 07:09 PM
Yeah it only effects things that are living (wf in Ebberon will prolly still be effected) but actual constructs/undead will be immune.

It's not implosion after all, it just acts like it

So now: Slay Living > PK, Implosion > Wail. Divine > Pale Master.

Drwaz99
06-15-2012, 07:20 PM
I messed with it pretty extensively and I find it really good on a small group where you might have to enervate + finger/wail/etc, now you just wail, lvl drain them (twice if needed) then kill kill them. Granted it's only 2 targets then, but it works great like that.

Matuse
06-15-2012, 07:22 PM
So now: Slay Living > PK, Implosion > Wail. Divine > Pale Master.

Ignoring the range restriction on Slay Living, which requires being in melee distance (frequently not where you want to be).

Also Wail works on everything instantly, where Implosion takes a while and might not select the monster(s) you want it to if there are enough targets around.

And lastly, PMs can easily get their DCs quite a bit higher than any divine.

In summary, you are wrong.

Kabaon
06-15-2012, 07:27 PM
FoD>Slay Living

PK>Slay Living

Other than that, the other instakills are more on par with each other, each with pros and cons (and CoD is in a league of it's own, ranged 4 mob cap, dual save, enervation on successful save)

GermanicusMaximus
06-15-2012, 07:27 PM
So now: Slay Living > PK, Implosion > Wail. Divine > Pale Master.

Well, Divines are the forces of light after all....

But if Slay Living is really better than PK, then PK is really bad

And I'd trade Implosion to get Wail any day, even the new version.

Drwaz99
06-15-2012, 07:31 PM
Also Wail works on everything instantly, where Implosion takes a while and might not select the monster(s) you want it to if there are enough targets around.


I 100% agree with the rest of your post, but it isn't quite instant - it's 2 attempts every 2 seconds for a total/max result of 6 monsters over 6 seconds. It's mainly nit-picking (not my purpose here tbh) just want to keep people from thinking otherwise.

I find the hardest thing is just getting a good roll to surpass the SR of the drow running around. I rarely fail with a 40-42 DC depending on my gear load out.

Kabaon
06-15-2012, 07:39 PM
I 100% agree with the rest of your post, but it isn't quite instant - it's 2 attempts every 2 seconds for a total/max result of 6 monsters over 6 seconds. It's mainly nit-picking (not my purpose here tbh) just want to keep people from thinking otherwise.

I find the hardest thing is just getting a good roll to surpass the SR of the drow running around. I rarely fail with a 40-42 DC depending on my gear load out.

In the forest I had no issues breaking through their SR, nor in Epic normals (which aren't terribly difficult).

I got confused by one orange named Drow that was immune to FoD becuase he was actually Red named though XD

Drwaz99
06-15-2012, 07:41 PM
In the forest I had no issues breaking through their SR, nor in Epic normals (which aren't terribly difficult).

I got confused by one orange named Drow that was immune to FoD becuase he was actually Red named though XD


Yeah the guy that was transferred hadn't been updated in a while so I got stuck with some sub-par gear. (he's sitting at 28 spell pen, which is meh)

Kabaon
06-15-2012, 07:43 PM
Mines 32-33 depending on spell, but I had no Magister levels and a DC of 43+

You shoulda still been able to by pass fairly often, our difference in Spell Pen wasn't much :S

Drwaz99
06-15-2012, 07:47 PM
It's up 20% better, so it does help...but now you make me wonder, maybe I'm missing something. Wouldn't be the first time.

Kabaon
06-15-2012, 07:49 PM
It's up 20% better, so it does help...but now you make me wonder, maybe I'm missing something. Wouldn't be the first time.

Woo! I'm good for something :P

Also I didn't fail SR checks often, I saw once I rolled a 1 and succeeded. So it shouldn't be THAT crazy different

paraplegic
06-15-2012, 07:57 PM
ill test it 2 weeks ( live weeks) if i dont like it ill TR into WF sorc.

Drwaz99
06-15-2012, 07:58 PM
Eh, doh...I'm gonna have to jump back on and run around someone and see where I sit at. :cool:

Kabaon
06-15-2012, 08:02 PM
Seems silly to jump ship from Wizzy to Sorc over one spell, especially when there are many many many other insta-kills.

Plus Magister has a few things that make cooldowns lower for a school (for me in would be Necromancy) and -10% sp costs. All in all one spell being nerfed (while crappy) isn't TR worthy.

After testing it's not as bad a nerf as I thought, but I'd still like the mob cap raised slightly. But until then CoD, FoD, and PWK will back it up. Along with cold/lightning/neg energy sla's and my huge human PM HP pool XD (after the xpac goes live my estimated hp for level 25 and the right gear should be 787 hp)

Drwaz99
06-15-2012, 08:09 PM
Woo! I'm good for something :P

Also I didn't fail SR checks often, I saw once I rolled a 1 and succeeded. So it shouldn't be THAT crazy different

I was smoking the bad stuff.

32 spell pen (including the roll & I didn't have time to keep rolling to see if I could go lower) is good for the drow archers in the forest.

Kabaon
06-15-2012, 08:13 PM
Heh, I KNEW it was weird you weren't succeeding :P

Yeah it's also good for the necros/warriors/whatever else :P

oweieie
06-16-2012, 12:28 AM
Ignoring the range restriction on Slay Living, which requires being in melee distance (frequently not where you want to be).

Slay has 1 save, PK has 2 and doesn't work on things immune to mental effects like all that quori stuff, and no one specs illusion. PK is dramatically worse than slay.


Also Wail works on everything instantly, where Implosion takes a while and might not select the monster(s) you want it to if there are enough targets around.

You have utterly failed at comprehending the thread you've posted in.

Implosion hits 5, Wail 6. Implosion is evocation and benefits from the 3 sorc past lives. Implosion hits pretty much everything in the game while mobs that wail can't hit are fairly common.


And lastly, PMs can easily get their DCs quite a bit higher than any divine.

How exactly do you think that is happening? The whole +1 bonus from lich form? That puts them 1 ahead of a CLR/FVS, 3 if they have no necro feats, that's not "quite a bit higher".

Specced for evocation, with 3 sorc past lives, a CLR/FVS will BEAT a pale master's wail DC with their implosion.


In summary, you are wrong.

In summary, do you even play DDO?

The only advantage PM have is circle of death with it's ****** double save.

Slay >> PK
Finger = Destruction
Implosion > Wail

CLR/FVS > PM

budalic
06-16-2012, 12:47 AM
How exactly do you think that is happening? The whole +1 bonus from lich form? That puts them 1 ahead of a CLR/FVS, 3 if they have no necro feats, that's not "quite a bit higher".

Specced for evocation, with 3 sorc past lives, a CLR/FVS will BEAT a pale master's wail DC with their implosion.

It's +2 bonus from lich form (+1 necro, +1 from int increase); + 1 from capstone (ditto).


In summary, do you even play DDO?

The only advantage PM have is circle of death with it's ****** double save.

Now you're overreacting. Circle of death is amazing spell; and biggest advantage wizard has is feat selection. Cleric/FvS has some though DC/spell pen choices regarding feats.

Vordax
06-16-2012, 01:25 AM
So does Wail tick off against mobs it can't effect? Will it tick off the same mob over and over, even if immune? If surrounded by mobs, if it fails against one that has SR will it re-pick that mob or go on to another?

irivan
06-16-2012, 02:55 AM
I rarely fail with a 40-42 DC depending on my gear load out.

Yeah, of course, its a slayer. You will fail a lot, even in an Epic Normal with that DC.

Faent
06-16-2012, 05:52 AM
In summary, do you even play DDO?

The only advantage PM have is circle of death with it's ****** double save.

Slay >> PK
Finger = Destruction
Implosion > Wail

CLR/FVS > PM

Do YOU play DDO? I'm thinking not. The best-geared, best-played, best PL-twinked FvS wil not out-instakill the best-geared, best-played, best PL-twinked Necromage. Perhaps a FvS is better than a Necromage (by the way, in case you weren't paying attention, Archmages are just as good---if not better---at instakilling than Pale Masters.) But if so, it's not because they are better at instakilling. Get a raging clue.

sweez
06-16-2012, 07:18 AM
FoD>Slay Living


Ahem, apples to oranges? FoD == Destruction.



PK>Slay Living


Spells with one save and a similar effect are always better than double save spells, the only limiting factor for Slay Living are WASD skills, if you're even remotely competent at those, Slay Living is a superior spell to PK.

Edit: oh and also fear immunity blocks PK... so... yeah.

Anyway, talking of praxis instead of theory, running with very competent PMs and DC sorcs in live epics I was always able to keep up in kills on my DC FvS, and what pulled them over was usually the old wail. So, there is some truth to the fact that divines may now be the more efficient instakillers.

oweieie
06-16-2012, 10:02 AM
It's +2 bonus from lich form (+1 necro, +1 from int increase); + 1 from capstone (ditto).

It's +1. The 4 INT merely brings wizards up to what CLR/FVS can get their WIS to with alchemical weapon and monk splash.

Drwaz99
06-16-2012, 10:46 AM
Yeah, of course, its a slayer. You will fail a lot, even in an Epic Normal with that DC.

I had no issues soloing most of the quests on Epic Normal and Epic Hard (with no more than 2 mana pots used, but mostly none). This thread is more about the mechanic of the spell rather than the DC's.

FlaviusMaximus
06-16-2012, 02:02 PM
What is the cooldown on Wail for sorcs? For some reason I'm not finding this information in the release notes.

Tid12
06-16-2012, 02:55 PM
What is the cooldown on Wail for sorcs? For some reason I'm not finding this information in the release notes.

50 secs.



Hi everyone!

Thank you for the feedback on the haunted idea.

We've evaluated the Haunted mechanic to be too complex to introduce at this time. As mentioned by several posters in this thread, it's really Wail of the Banshee that is the source of the balance problems that we seek to address, and it's more logical to constrain changes to the spell.

We're planning on removing the death protection from non-boss creatures in Epic difficulty and changing Wail of the Banshee from being a spell that instantaneously kills up to 20 enemies for 10 sp more than Finger of Death, to a kill-over-time model similar to, but still better than, the Clr/FvS spell Implosion.


Wail of the Banshee
SP Cost: 50
Cooldown: 60 seconds (50 for Sorcerers)
You emit a terrible scream, creating a deadly area around yourself for 6 seconds. Every 2 seconds, two nearby enemies must make a fortitude save or die. On a successful fortitude save, the target takes 1 to 4 negative levels. You are free to perform other actions while Wail of the Banshee is active.
D&D Dice: Slays multiple living enemies or deals 1d4 negative levels if they save.

We're planning on continuing to monitor the effectiveness of instant death effects (and necromancy in general) and will continue to make changes as necessary. (Especially when the enhancements revamp appears. It's possible that the "Haunted" concept, instead of being a debuff, will reappear as a positive effect for characters that invest in the Pale Master tree.)

DarkForte
06-16-2012, 03:13 PM
Slay living, better than PK? The barrier to using slay living isn't the DC, but the fact that 60% of the time I get a 'you are not facing the Bezekira' message, and that I can't do it from range to solve that issue.

Kabaon
06-16-2012, 04:38 PM
I've used PK in the past, frankly double saves mean NOTHING if you pick your targets. If your blind firing your instakills are the nearest mob, yeah your gonna have issues. If you pick your targets (and many insta killers do) PK is more beneficial than Slay Living. And range trumps save type honestly. Lets not forget DW blocks slay living.....so PK still trumps Slay Living in the fact that it has higher range.

Also CoD for me kills more frequently then you give it credit for. Mine usually gets 3-4 of the 4 mob cap with ease. Because it's a necromancy spell it gets a 43 fort save (for me) and a 43 will save. If they pass one of those, they still get a neg 1-4 levels.

Also the +4 from the wizard capstone and lich form (total not each) brings up our int to what a clr/fvs can acheive with an alchemical weapon and monk splash.....means that if I had an alchemical int item (if it exists) I will get HIGHER than the fvs/clr XD.

I take lich from not just for the extra stats and hp, but the fact that I get 200% fort and temp hp upon being struck.

Faent
06-16-2012, 04:51 PM
If your blind firing your instakills are the nearest mob, yeah your gonna have issues.

Lesson? Maybe the FvS is better at instakilling when we're comparing folks who don't know how their spells work?

Kabaon
06-16-2012, 07:35 PM
Lesson? Maybe the FvS is better at instakilling when we're comparing folks who don't know how their spells work?

I have yet to find a fvs who I've played with that out instakills me. They may exist, but I haven't found one (except the ones with Terrors.... and even then it's iffy)

budalic
06-18-2012, 04:59 AM
Yeah, of course, its a slayer. You will fail a lot, even in an Epic Normal with that DC.

No, you won't. Epic normal is (currently) laughably easy, and epic hard is easier than live - and 42 is good DC to have on live.


It's +1. The 4 INT merely brings wizards up to what CLR/FVS can get their WIS to with alchemical weapon and monk splash.

However, divine has to use 2 shcools - evo and necro - and can reach higher DCs than wizard only for evocation. I'd call that wastly bigger disadvantage than attacking two saves with circle of death.

I'm pretty sure that caster soul and arcane are pretty equal casters, as they should be, at least now that shield mastery has been nerfed.

I'd never splash monk on a fvs, however. Capstone is way too good.

Avidus
06-18-2012, 07:24 AM
So does Wail tick off against mobs it can't effect? Will it tick off the same mob over and over, even if immune? If surrounded by mobs, if it fails against one that has SR will it re-pick that mob or go on to another?

Anyone have any information on the above question?

Often times implosion will get 'stuck' on one mob, will the new wail do the same thing?
For example if casting wail near a shroud portal will it try to kill the portal and waste ticks like implosion does? Or is the new wail 'smart' enough to know better?

If in a pack of mixed mobs containing a drow necromacer, some undead, some spiders etc, what does wail tick on? Note, I asked what it actually ticks on, not what it should tick on. There is a difference.

Just wondering, any help answering these questions will be appreciated.

nivarch
06-18-2012, 07:40 AM
However, divine has to use 2 shcools - evo and necro - and can reach higher DCs than wizard only for evocation. I'd call that wastly bigger disadvantage than attacking two saves with circle of death.
That.
Caster divines can use implo every minute, and in the meantime have to rely on necromancy for which most of them will not take feats.
Not having circle of death is also a huge difference.
And for FvS taking energy drain has a cost since you only have 3 level 9 spells, and need to fit in implosion and mass heal. Energy drain means you can't carry true resurrection.


I'm pretty sure that caster soul and arcane are pretty equal casters, as they should be, at least now that shield mastery has been nerfed.
For insta kill after patch I believe Wizards will still be ahead, especially since they are not expected to heal and therefore can more easily take the magister PrE than FvS (when raid healing it will be hard to skip renewal, even after it has been nerfed) which means higher DCs, and potentially lower cooldown.


I'd never splash monk on a fvs, however. Capstone is way too good.
That may change with expansion. You can just twist the DR from shiradi champion to reproduce the DR

alexp80
06-18-2012, 07:55 AM
I've used PK in the past, frankly double saves mean NOTHING if you pick your targets.

LOL. Double save (fort/will) on a low dc school. So the ideal target is the random archer to have decent chances to see it land? PK doesn't merit a slot in the starved lvl 4°.



If your blind firing your instakills are the nearest mob, yeah your gonna have issues. If you pick your targets (and many insta killers do) PK is more beneficial than Slay Living. And range trumps save type honestly. Lets not forget DW blocks slay living.....so PK still trumps Slay Living in the fact that it has higher range.

Better to learn how to land close spells. It's not hard at all.

Also CoD for me kills more frequently then you give it credit for. Mine usually gets 3-4 of the 4 mob cap with ease. Because it's a necromancy spell it gets a 43 fort save (for me) and a 43 will save. If they pass one of those, they still get a neg 1-4 levels.



Also the +4 from the wizard capstone and lich form (total not each) brings up our int to what a clr/fvs can acheive with an alchemical weapon and monk splash.....means that if I had an alchemical int item (if it exists) I will get HIGHER than the fvs/clr XD.

One word. Aura.

DC fvs/PM
base stat : same
item +7 same
enanch: FVS (+2 dc aura) / PM (+2 dc lich form / +1 dc capstone)
feats: same
exceptional stat: same
alchemic stats: FVS: (+1 dc alchemic)



I take lich from not just for the extra stats and hp, but the fact that I get 200% fort and temp hp upon being struck.

The point is that a divine class should not be as good as a pale master at death spells.
There is now very little difference between the two in the field.

If the put enanchement line for bb (as annouced) in the fvs tree the class will be the very best overall caster class.

Kabaon
06-18-2012, 12:08 PM
LOL. Double save (fort/will) on a low dc school. So the ideal target is the random archer to have decent chances to see it land? PK doesn't merit a slot in the starved lvl 4°.

Low dc school, who cares. Heighten pumps it up to (for me) a 40 dc on will/fort. It's effective (also I never turn heighten off)


Better to learn how to land close spells. It's not hard at all.
And I care why? I don't NEED to learn how to cast close spells better, because I don't HAVE any close spells that aren't self only lol.


One word. Aura.

DC fvs/PM
base stat : same
item +7 same
enanch: FVS (-2 to saving throws, attack bonus, and AC) / PM (+2 dc lich form / +1 dc capstone)
feats: same
exceptional stat: same
alchemic stats: FVS: (+1 dc alchemic)



Ok, first, in red I fixed it for you. While it overall is basically the same function, your dc's ARE still two lower than a PM's.

Secondly, you still need to consider the facts that Wizzies (and PM's especially) don't need 3 stats to be effective. I understand that Cha can be dumped on a FVS, to an extent, but if you don't take any you can't cast any spells. Then you need wisdom to pump up your dc's. And if you like living, Con, especially when you need to get up close and personal to use Implosion (evocation, not necromancy) and slay living. Your only ranged instakill is destruction. Where as a wizzy has PK (Illusion), FoD, CoD, PWK (Conjuration, no save) for ranged Instakills and Wail for short range.

That already puts you behind a wizzy, because they really only need 2 stats, maybe a third if you have the build points, or doing so for flavor. Mine started with 12 str, 18 Con, 18 int on 3rd (current) life. His fully buffed and actually useful stats are 38 con, 44+ int (I'm not logged in right now to double check) with a dc for necromancy at 43 to 45 depending on buffs. This will only get higher as the x-pac launches and I go magister, get a lucky pull of a +4 int tome, hell even a +7 item lol.

You also don't get as many feats as a wizzy, so how are they the same? At first level I had 3 feats, 4 more from bonus at 5, 10, 15, 20. Plus the ones I'm supposed to get at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18. If you wasted feats in necromancy, then that's just dumb as you have two instakills that benefit from it. I don't have many more but I have more necromancy spells overall.

Also you might have forgotten that unless you have a past life wizzy, I get +1 to dc's from having my active feat.

FRankly, they aren't as close as you think they are (we also have better spells, and the artificer has a better BB than divines).


The point is that a divine class should not be as good as a pale master at death spells.
There is now very little difference between the two in the field.

If the put enhancement line for bb (as announced) in the fvs tree the class will be the very best overall caster class.

It's a strong caster class I'll give you that, just not as strong as you make it out to be. Wizzies = Kings of DC's, Sorcs = kings of spell damage, FVS= Prince of spell damage, Clerics, Kings of healing. Generally

EDIT: This is getting off track. As to Vordax's and Avidus' questions, I didn't test it. I suspect that, it won't function on something like the shroud portals. Simply becuase under the base mechanic they are still different in function. Implosion hits basically everything. Constructs and Undead ARE effected by implosion.

Shroud portals are constructs, so when used in Part 1 of shroud, Implosion "sees" a mob that it can hit. Becuase the portals are red named, it doesn't work. Implosion "sees" that it lived, and tried to implode it again. This continues on until you arew out of implode ticks and the spell is wasted.

I suspect that Wail checks to see if things are "living". For example it will tick on everything but constructs or undead. Since somewhere in the code there are flags saying which mobs are what (again, speculation) it'll skip over Undead, having no effect, or constructs (neither are considered living) and hit only living creatures (for example, Fiendish Trogs, Trolls, Bezekira, Orthons) but will probably still tick on any "LIVING" red/purple named mob wasting a tick.

WF are living constructs and are affected by wail

Vordax
06-18-2012, 12:15 PM
Also CoD for me kills more frequently then you give it credit for. Mine usually gets 3-4 of the 4 mob cap with ease. Because it's a necromancy spell it gets a 43 fort save (for me) and a 43 will save. If they pass one of those, they still get a neg 1-4 levels.

According to the wiki its a reflex save, and then a fort save. If the reflex is failed and fort is made then the 1d4 neg levels happen.

Kabaon
06-18-2012, 12:24 PM
Ah, he quoted me and forgot to put quote tags in. My mistake, as I thought it was will/fort.

Regardless evasion doesn't stop the spell from doing anything, so the only way it's ineffective is if the mob passes both saves. Used it on the Tiefling archers and assassins in e-chrono with great effect (death or neg levels)

Thrudh
06-18-2012, 12:25 PM
In summary, do you even play DDO?

The only advantage PM have is circle of death with it's ****** double save.

Slay >> PK
Finger = Destruction
Implosion > Wail

CLR/FVS > PM

Did you know that clerics and FvS don't get 5 bonus feats?

Did you know that PMs have a bunch of OTHER offensive spells besides insta-death spells?

budalic
06-18-2012, 12:25 PM
The point is that a divine class should not be as good as a pale master at death spells.
There is now very little difference between the two in the field.

If the put enanchement line for bb (as annouced) in the fvs tree the class will be the very best overall caster class.

FvS already *is* best overall caster class, mostly thanks to extra thoughness, best self-healing and shield mastery. However, I doubt that it will be better than wizard in instakill department even after expansion, mostly thanks to Circle of death (more on that below).

I also preferr elemental nukes and AoE dot spells to blade barrier - and while sorc is best at that, wizards aren't far away. Frankly, I think arcanes and fvs will be pretty equal after the expansion. Cleric... dunno.


According to the wiki its a reflex save, and then a fort save. If the reflex is failed and fort is made then the 1d4 neg levels happen.

Yeah. Reflex save is commonly very low - mobs that have it high are mostly archers and rogue-type mobs. Everything else seems to have ref save lagging 8 or more points behind fort, so if you have 60% chance of landing fort part of spell, you're almost guaranteed landing ref effect.


That may change with expansion. You can just twist the DR from shiradi champion to reproduce the DR

I was reffering to Cure light wounds capstone, which is borderline overpowered on human and helf w/monk dilly. There is also pretty similar thing in exalted angel epic destiny... not sure how will it turn out - can't test destinies because I'll purchase expansion in a few days - but might also be pretty OP.

Kabaon
06-18-2012, 12:35 PM
FvS already *is* best overall caster class, mostly thanks to extra thoughness, best self-healing and shield mastery. However, I doubt that it will be better than wizard in instakill department even after expansion, mostly thanks to Circle of death (more on that below).

In some cases I'll agree with the extra toughness, but it's not actually that hard to make a wizzy have A LOT of hp, especially if your a human (Mine fully buffed pre-xpac has 607, after expansion, my rough math brings me up to 787). I never took shield mastery but it's getting nerfed anyway. It self healing is better because you get more than a pale master in that regards. Post update though I'm going to get 45+ on each non-crit DA tick, 90+ on crits (which is up 10-15 points from live). For 3 minutes.


I also prefer elemental nukes and AoE dot spells to blade barrier - and while sorc is best at that, wizards aren't far away. Frankly, I think arcanes and fvs will be pretty equal after the expansion. Cleric... dunno.


On a sorc if they wanna use Eladars And Niacs as a savant of either side they have to waste 2 of the 4 level 5 spells slots, useful, but still rough. Still better than BB though :P.

oweieie
06-18-2012, 02:24 PM
Did you know that clerics and FvS don't get 5 bonus feats?

Did you know that wizards don't get DR 10, wings to get them out of trouble, and d8 hit die?


Did you know that PMs have a bunch of OTHER offensive spells besides insta-death spells?

Did you know that FvS have a bunch of OTHER offensive spells besides insta-death spells?

I've done pale master, I've done an instakill fvs and cleric life on my completionist, and it was exactly as glorious as promised. With the continual nerfing to pale master I'm very likely going to switch to divine unless the new epic destines play out heavily in the arcane's favor. My implosion DC is HIGHER than a pale master's wail can possibly be, and with the nerf to wail, **** it, pale master is gimp master. You can't even wail undead or constructs to begin with, implosion was often already better, now with 6 targets/minute it absolutely is.

Scraap
06-18-2012, 02:39 PM
I suspect that Wail checks to see if things are "living". For example it will tick on everything but constructs or undead. Since somewhere in the code there are flags saying which mobs are what (again, speculation) it'll skip over Undead, having no effect, or constructs (neither are considered living) and hit only living creatures (for example, Fiendish Trogs, Trolls, Bezekira, Orthons) but will probably still tick on any "LIVING" red/purple named mob wasting a tick.

You'd think so, but no. It ticks on undead, and pops up immune.

Alavatar
06-18-2012, 04:40 PM
Did you know that wizards don't get DR 10, wings to get them out of trouble, and d8 hit die?

I am curious what feats you are taking?

Assuming non-human, I am guessing:

Maximize
Empower
Heighten
Quicken
Toughness
Spell Focus: Evocation
Greater Spell Focus: Evocation

That only helps Implosion / Blade Barrier / Cometfall, not Destruction or Slay Living.

As a Wizard, picking up a second Spell Focus, Mental Toughness (if you must), [Greater] Spell Penetration (more Spell Penetration doesn't hurt), probably Extend ... :)

Matuse
06-18-2012, 06:00 PM
One word. Aura.

DC fvs/PM
base stat : same
item +7 same

Problem here is that there's (on live) only ONE way to get +7 wis, which is the eMoron Helm. Not a common item to have. I've done ~40 eVoN6s, and the shard for the eMoron Helm has never dropped. At all. For anyone.

+7 Int may as well be handed out in Korthos, it appears so regularly.


enanch: FVS (+2 dc aura) / PM (+2 dc lich form / +1 dc capstone)

Um, no. It's FvS (-2 Saves aura) / PM (+1 Lich Int + 1 Lich Necro Bonus +1 Capstone +0.5 WizInt3).

So, +2 vs +3.5 (and really, that's going to be +4...it's not that hard to even out an attribute).

Also worth noting in big capital letters that the FvS Aura is a fear effect, and anything immune to fear (which is a lot of things) does not suffer the save penalty. The aura also has very limited range, and shuts off when you are invisible, so there's all kinds of circumstances where even if the target COULD be affected by the aura, it won't be.


feats: same

This is just silly. You cannot realistically claim that a class which gets 5 bonus feats is going to have the same feat layout as one that doesn't get any bonus feats. If the FvS takes both Spell Focus: Evoke feats, then yes, they will get the same bonus to Implosion that the wizard who takes both Spell Focus: Necro feats gets to Wail. But then the FvS isn't getting any feat boost to their Destructions, where the Wizard's Fingers and Circles of Death are boosted just fine thankyouverymuch. Meanwhile, the wizard has room for an entire second line of spell foci (for say, Conjuration for Web), some spell pen, and mental toughness.

As soon as you start factoring in other DC increasing feats like the Wizard PL and Completionist, then the FvS falls further and further behind.

Kabaon
06-18-2012, 09:16 PM
Gotta go with Matuse on this one, regardless of what you think of the UBER caster fvs, it just doesn't exist. It'll be able to survive a lot, but it's spells are lackluster... see below

Level 1 Nimbus of Light, Inflict Light Wounds

Level 2 Defiec Vengeance, Inflict Moderate

Level 3 Searing Light, Inflict Serious

Level 4 Chaotic Hammer (if your chaotic), Holy Smite (only if your good), Orders Wrath (only if your lawful), Unholy Blight (only if your evil or neutral.... so neutral for players), Symbol of Flame, Inflict Critical

Level 5 Divine Punishment (one of your few GOOD dps spells), Flame Strike (most content with devils are immune, many resistant mobs), Slay Living (touch spell), Inflict Light Wounds, Mass

Level 6 Cometfall, Harm (short range), Blade Barrier, Inflict Moderate Wounds,

Level 7 Destruction, Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass

Level 8 Fire Storm, Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass

Level 9 Implosion

That is your total list of pure dps/instakill spells. That is a sad list. And you need to pick and choose these spells, and to keep doing it will take time and effort to grind out the blood of dragons for each swap.

Wizard/Sorc DPS/Instakill spell list

Level 1 Niacs Cold Ray, Acid Spray, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Sonic Blast, Chill Touch, Disrupt Undead (obviously only good at killing undead)

Level 2 Melf's Acid Arrow, Electric Loop, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind, Scorch, Scorching Ray, Snowball Swarm, Lesser Death Aura (dual purpose, but can do some damage)

Level 3 Acid Blast, Chain Missiles, Fireball, Frost Lance, Lightning Bolt

Level 4 Acid Rain, Force Missiles, Ice Storm, Shout, Wall of Fire, PK, Burning Blood, Death Aura, Negative Energy Burst,

Level 5 Ball Lightning, Cone of Cold, Cyclonic Blast, Dismissal, Eladar's Electric Surge, Niac's Biting Cold, Prismatic Ray (The two DoT's when triple stacked will generally out dps anything a fvs can throw at anything if you spec Lightning and Cold. Basically a boss agro magnet)

Level 6 Acid Fog (not much dmg, but still does some), Chain Lightning, Otilukes Freezing Sphere, Circle of Death, Necrotic Ray, Undeath to Death (for those pesky undead)

Level 7 Banishment, DBF, Prismatic Spray, Finger of Death

Level 8 Black Dragon Bolt, Incendiary Cloud, Trap the Soul, Greater Shout, Polar Ray, Sunburst (undead killer), Horrid Wilting

Level 9 PWK, Wail and Meteor Swarm

Many FVS spells require you to be a certain alignment, or be in short range, or do terrible damage. While there are optimal spells on wiz/sorc builds, even many of the lower end spells will do more damage overall.

I suspect you'll say in response that it's not all about the dps, my FVS CC's really well too. I have just as good CC as a FVS does. The only class that WILL trump anybody else for CC is a Bard with fascinate.

Also the 10 dr, wings, and d8 hit die mean nothing to me. The DR would give me less procs of Torc/Concord OP becuase of the 0's I'd be taking in, so less sp coming in, and no temp hp procs. I can get wings post expansion if I take the Epic Destiny with it in it, so that's moot. And d8 hit die... so what? I think you missed the part where I have 607 hp on a human pale master on live, and with the expansion at level 25 I should have the minimum of 707 (50 from hitting 25, 10 per level, 50 from epic toughness), 767 with Con +8 and Con +3 insight and if I pull a rare Con+4 tome, running with a Con +3 now. 817 if I took Epic Toughness twice, dunno why I would though. And had everything else.

And my spells do a good chunk of dmg. I tank Sully on Norm/Hard ToD and VoD, Harry on Hard Shroud (solo'ed him from 75% hp after the other 11 died), and have yet to have other people pull them off me when I have two dots going.

Aww the new wail ticks on undead. ******, but it just means you need to be careful on where you use it :S

Faent
06-18-2012, 09:52 PM
LOL. Double save (fort/will) on a low dc school. So the ideal target is the random archer to have decent chances to see it land? PK doesn't merit a slot in the starved lvl 4°.

That's a Pale Master problem. It's trivial for an Archmage to slot PK. And frankly, that's a fine tradeoff. Want to free up your fourth level spells? Switch PRE's. (The Archmage can also drop Will Saves by 3 for 1 SP, getting a better Undeath to Death as well.)

Faent
06-18-2012, 09:54 PM
The point is that a divine class should not be as good as a pale master at death spells.

And they aren't, so you're discussing a moot point. You also seem to be oblivious to the long list of spells wizard have (which FvS's dont) that DROP saves. For example, I might toss a 43 DC Cloudkill on each portal in ToD. And then drop a 3 SP 43 DC Web in that Cloudkill. Guess what that does to Orthons? Who is better at instakilling them?

Or perhaps I set up a Mind Fog + Discoball. I follow with a 1 SP -3 Will Hypno Debuff. Then I toss Circle and Wail. Stragglers get picked off FAST with Finger of Death AND Phantasmal Killer now. See what just happened to their Will Save? It's basically non-existent at this point. If I really want to go all out, I could add a Solid Fog to that mix and nerf their Reflex saves before tossing my Circle of Death (but now we're talking serious overkill). If you're a Pale Master and want to slot all these spells, maybe you could reconsider your PRE. It gives you plenty in trade. Personally, I'm sticking with AM for awhile now.

Favored Souls are about ten trillion miles behind wizards in instakill territory if you have half a clue. Oh, and if I'm in a party with a FvS, that aura benefits me too.

Just stop.

crazydamage
06-19-2012, 12:07 AM
FVS have equal or better DC to wizards thanks to the following:

+2 wis from 1-2 monk splash
+2 wis from alchemical LOB
+3 DC from 3X sorc PL
= +5 total

wizard compensate only by:
Capstone +2 int
+2 DC from AM/PM
= +3 Total

crazydamage
06-19-2012, 12:08 AM
Also
18 FVS / 1 monk / 1 wiz

still have toughness, and Greater spell focus in BOTH Necro And Evocation

Hobgoblin
06-19-2012, 12:14 AM
FVS have equal or better DC to wizards thanks to the following:

+2 wis from 1-2 monk splash
+2 wis from alchemical LOB
+3 DC from 3X sorc PL
= +5 total

wizard compensate only by:
Capstone +2 int
+2 DC from AM/PM
= +3 Total

just an observation here -

wizards have a lot more feats - so its easier to fit in things like wizard past life and competionist (2 dc making them = again)

the variety of killing spells that a wizzies has is a big advantage.

not getting into the range issue

fvs - dismissal, banishment, slay living, destruction, implosion

wizard - dismissal, banishment, prismatic spray, trap the soul, pk, fod, wail, cod.

add to this the fact that wizards get a lot of ways to reduce saves and imho, wizards are far in the lead in insta kills


just my 2 cents.

hob

Bilger
06-19-2012, 12:15 AM
So now: Slay Living > PK, Implosion > Wail. Divine > Pale Master.

PK > Slay living May take 2 saves but the higher possible dc's make way better.

Only thing that makes implosion better at all is it hits undead but imo the neg lvls and such makes wail way better.

PM> divine with instant kills by far you forgot FOD and COD and such, higher dc's and so on

So you are completely wrong as others have said :D

EDIT: Geuss should of read on someone said pretty much same thing o well lol

Bilger
06-19-2012, 12:22 AM
FVS have equal or better DC to wizards thanks to the following:

+2 wis from 1-2 monk splash
+2 wis from alchemical LOB
+3 DC from 3X sorc PL
= +5 total

wizard compensate only by:
Capstone +2 int
+2 DC from AM/PM
= +3 Total

A PM gets a couple more just in Lich form and more feats which gets you higher dc's easily you would have to be extremely focused on school as divine to even try to meet a PM dc's. A Archmage is 1 or 2 behind a geared if not equal to PM making it above a divine also.

alexp80
06-19-2012, 12:22 AM
FRankly, they aren't as close as you think they are (we also have better spells, and the artificer has a better BB than divines).



It's a strong caster class I'll give you that, just not as strong as you make it out to be. Wizzies = Kings of DC's, Sorcs = kings of spell damage, FVS= Prince of spell damage, Clerics, Kings of healing. Generally


Have you actually played a fvs with the correct past lifes and top geared?

Just wondering...

alexp80
06-19-2012, 12:24 AM
A PM gets a couple more just in Lich form and more feats which gets you higher dc's easily you would have to be extremely focused on school as divine to even try to meet a PM dc's. A Archmage is 1 or 2 behind a geared if not equal to PM making it above a divine also.

Talking about things that you simply ignore.

FVS: same dc of a wiz (they compensate with the aura)
PM and necro archmage: SAME DC if same race and same gear

DarkForte
06-19-2012, 12:48 AM
The only situations where PM DC > AM DC are:
1. Warforged AM versus Human(in some cases)/Drow PM;
2. AM not using yugo pots (fortification debuff) versus PM of the same race using yugo pots (still at 150% fort);
3. Both of the above.

Aashrym
06-19-2012, 01:27 AM
A PM gets a couple more just in Lich form and more feats which gets you higher dc's easily you would have to be extremely focused on school as divine to even try to meet a PM dc's. A Archmage is 1 or 2 behind a geared if not equal to PM making it above a divine also.

Crazy listed what is included in lich form for PM 3 in his DC's. On top of that a FvS also carries the aura debuff (-2 SR, -2 saves), there are twists in evocation bonuses from draconic destiny and from magister, and FvS also has additional debuffs such as: shaken (non heightened cause fear), prayer (luck penalty), symbol of death, energy drain off the top of my head.

FvS evokers are more than capable of implosion DC's that beat PM/AM necro DC's with some effort.

Even the comment on having more feats isn't an issue when other classes with the same limited number of feats as FvS's fit in 2+ feats for SF/GSF.

The difference is a wizard doesn't need to grind 3 sorc past lives. Beyond that the massively higher DC's on wizard is a bit of a myth. Wizards get +1 DC capstone, +1 from lich INT bonus to all spells, +1 to necro from PM. Or +1 from capstone and +2 in one school on AM. Divine casters with the alchemical shield who splash monk can make that up and then grab sorc past lives, even clerics, for very strong implosion DC's.

EDIT: I think the new wail should have a longer duration. :)

Faent
06-19-2012, 03:37 AM
A PM gets a couple more just in Lich form and more feats which gets you higher dc's easily you would have to be extremely focused on school as divine to even try to meet a PM dc's. A Archmage is 1 or 2 behind a geared if not equal to PM making it above a divine also.

False. A WF Archmage is on par with a WF Pale Master in terms of Necro DC's. No difference. It's going Human (or Drow) that can permit the +1 DC bump. A PM can currently hit a +1 higher Necro DC than a WF Archmage IF they go Human or Drow. The race gives them the bump, see? Not the Prestige. A Human Archmage will hit the same Necro DC's a Human Pale Master can hit. Again, it's the race, not the Prestige, that makes the difference.

Malky
06-19-2012, 03:41 AM
False. A WF Archmage is on par with a WF Pale Master in terms of Necro DC's. No difference. It's going Human (or Drow) that can permit the +1 DC bump. A PM can currently hit a +1 higher Necro DC than a WF Archmage IF they go Human or Drow. The race gives them the bump, see? Not the Prestige. A Human Archmage will hit the same Necro DC's a Human Pale Master can hit. Again, it's the race, not the Prestige, that makes the difference.

And the AM can take the enervation SLA...

Faent
06-19-2012, 03:43 AM
Crazy listed what is included in lich form for PM 3 in his DC's. On top of that a FvS also carries the aura debuff (-2 SR, -2 saves), there are twists in evocation bonuses from draconic destiny and from magister, and FvS also has additional debuffs such as: shaken (non heightened cause fear), prayer (luck penalty), symbol of death, energy drain off the top of my head.

Are you really trying to defend the claim that divines are better in the instakill department? Anyone who knows anything can see that you don't know what you're talking about. For example, everyone can Twist or take an Epic Destiny. And wizzies also have Symbol of Death and Energy Drain. You're spouting nonsense.

Faent
06-19-2012, 03:47 AM
And the AM can take the enervation SLA...

This sort of comparison isn't, I think, really helpful. The PM can gear up and take hits and auto-enervate everything (using guards). That's just as free, if not more so.

alexp80
06-19-2012, 06:51 AM
Are you really trying to defend the claim that fvs are better in the instakill department?

not better maybe, but very very close. And this not should be

Ziindarax
06-19-2012, 07:38 AM
And the AM can take the enervation SLA...

To add, if I am not mistaken, an Archmage can take a second spell focus, and receive heightened DC's on his/her enchantment or evocation spells (at the cost of additional SP, of course).

As it stands, Necromancers are entirely too reliant on instant kill magic - if their powers don't work on a targeted mob, they're about the same in effectiveness as a wizard who decided to skip on taking a prestige; regardless of which prestige/class is better, Necromancers should be able to do a few things that most other classes cannot (or ethically, will not) do, such as using the corpses of the fallen as minions. How about a SLA-like curse that spawns things upon a target (or a group of afflicted targets') death(s)?

deahamlet
06-19-2012, 07:58 AM
One spell implosion cannot equal the power of wail, circle of death, FoD and pwk. Discuss DCs all you want, but the other instakills are necro and a divine cannot afford necro and evo feats. And one instakill spell every 1minute cannot compare to all a wizard has access to.

Kabaon
06-19-2012, 08:10 AM
I'd like to see where this magic dc comparison is coming from. All I see is items that boost their dc score and stuff like that.

I've already explained that to be effective FVS needs SOME Cha (so they can cast their spells, without about a 16 CHA you can't cast any spells after a certain level), a High wis for DC's, and Con for hp.

Wizards need Con and Int. That's It.

The first level affects everything else, having a 14 or 16 in Wis will automatically puts you behind a wizard that caps out his int. It might be only by one to two DCs but it IS STILL lower than a PM.

And your Aura may drop saves by 2, but if I'm near you, it helps me too, so consider that a +2 to dc's for a PM in your aura lol.

NO I haven't played a capped out FVS, but really I have already looked over the spell list for offensive spells and Wizards blow fvs out of the water an basically every fashion of spell casting.... except healing (unless your a wf with Repair Spells healing other wf, not common, does happen).

I have yet to see a FVS pull agro off of me from blade barrier and Divine Punishment (and I LIKE having the agro, I want to be hit)

Kabaon
06-19-2012, 08:16 AM
As it stands, Necromancers are entirely too reliant on instant kill magic - if their powers don't work on a targeted mob, they're about the same in effectiveness as a wizard who decided to skip on taking a prestige; regardless of which prestige/class is better, Necromancers should be able to do a few things that most other classes cannot (or ethically, will not) do, such as using the corpses of the fallen as minions. How about a SLA-like curse that spawns things upon a target (or a group of afflicted targets') death(s)?

See, then they are doing it wrong and wasting a party slot.

They should spec in at least one damage line outside of PM (or AM, but AM's are more likely to anyway) just for immunities, undead or constructs

For example I'm speced with Frost Manipulation VII, Storm Manipulation VII, and Deadly Ice and Deadly Shocks II, and the other two Crit enhancements PLUS Pale Master III. There has been only one mob who I can do anything about so far in my time playing with this set up. Sor'jek the Lich. Other than that, it works wonders (both Niacs/Eladar's tick for the same amount, hence I pull agro on bosses, which then I tank :P)

Ziindarax
06-19-2012, 08:25 AM
See, then they are doing it wrong and wasting a party slot.

They should spec in at least one damage line outside of PM (or AM, but AM's are more likely to anyway) just for immunities, undead or constructs

For example I'm speced with Frost Manipulation VII, Storm Manipulation VII, and Deadly Ice and Deadly Shocks II, and the other two Crit enhancements PLUS Pale Master III. There has been only one mob who I can do anything about so far in my time playing with this set up. Sor'jek the Lich. Other than that, it works wonders (both Niacs/Eladar's tick for the same amount, hence I pull agro on bosses, which then I tank :P)

When I say about the same as a wizard who did not take a pre, I mean one who has taken elemental manipulation and their critical components; a wizard is a force to be reckoned with even without a prestige. What I am saying is, the Necromancer as a whole needs more variety as to what they can do; a powerful necromancer should be able to perform more terrifying feats than just snuffing out life instantly, especially when they've begun the path to attaining what the Abbot canonically failed to achieve - Godhood. The scope of their prestige should not be a two-trick pony (self-healing and insta-death).

Quite honestly, I am disappointed they did away with the haunted-debuff, as it would have opened the doors [eventually] to a better variety of spells that did more than just insta-kill. Plus, the player market would have been flooded with useful soul gems for Cannith crafting as high-DC'ed wizards devised a way to circumvent the debuff.

Kabaon
06-19-2012, 08:31 AM
When I say about the same as a wizard who did not take a pre, I mean one who has taken elemental manipulation and their critical components; a wizard is a force to be reckoned with even without a prestige. What I am saying is, the Necromancer as a whole needs more variety as to what they can do; a powerful necromancer should be able to perform more terrifying feats than just snuffing out life instantly, especially when they've begun the path to attaining what the Abbot canonically failed to achieve - Godhood.

Quite honestly, I am disappointed they did away with the haunted-debuff, as it would have opened the doors [eventually] to a better variety of spells that did more than just insta-kill.

We already have a huge list of spells for variety. Are Insta-kills my bread and butter, sure, but I don't stop using other spells because of it.

I use on regular occasion, Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt, Polar Ray, The Dot's, Necrotic Ray, MY SLA's, Cloudkill, Death Aura (it hurts them if they are near me), Ice Storm, FoD, CoD, Wail, PWK, and occasionally PK.

What more do you want :P. There are people out there that use the other spells like Acid Rain or WoF. I think we have enough variety :)

Also if our summons weren't useless, and didn't cost us a lot of our AP to attain the best ones, we'd have more ways to go too (as a PM)

Habreno
06-19-2012, 09:00 AM
Doing the breakdowns since none of you will:

Cleric (which, BTW, gets 1 higher WIS and in the end 1 higher DC from it-since your Soul debuff affects everyone you can't count on it and therefore we are going with the superior divine casting class)

18 base WIS
5 levelups
4 tome
3 class enhancements
1 racial enhancement
7 item
3 exceptional 1 and 2
2 alchemical item
1 profane
2 water stance monk splash (19-1 can do this, you don't need 2 levels like most people think)
2 completionist

48 unbuffed WIS.
2 ship buff
2 yugo potion

52 buffed WIS.

1 +3 alchemical potion
3 +4 profane abishai cookie set

56 unsustainable buffed WIS.
23 modifier.


Note that we get 9 feats on this build (which is 19/1 Cleric/Monk) and have used one already on Completionist.

We need Heighten.
SPen/GSPen
SF/GSF Necro
SF/GSF Evo
Active PL: Wizard

No toughness, very few metamagics, no Quicken. And what's even worse is this feat layout can't even be taken, since none of those will fit into our 9th feat slot which is a Monk bonus feat.

Now we need to add a Wizard level. This drops our spell pen down AGAIN, meaning that one of those Spell Pen feats is now utterly wasted on the two splashed levels. This lets us take Toughness in the Monk Bonus feat slot, we take Heighten in the Wizard Bonus Feat Slot, and the other 8 are normal feats.


So, now we've gimped our spell pen a bit, gimped our DPS since we have no metamagics except Heighten, gimped our SP bar, and severely gimped our healing (no Empower Healing, so no PrE)


Let's just assume we're dealing with the idealistic build here, since everyone thinks that's what we have. So 3x PL in everything.


10 base DC
9 Heighten
23 WIS modifier
2 Spell Focus Feats
2 Greater Focus Item
1 Wiz PL
47 DC Necro.
3x Sorc PL
50 DC Evo.


On a rather gimped build otherwise. Can't heal out of a paper bag, no Toughness, practically no spell DPS. Just for 3 instakills.


Now, remember that 47 Necro and 50 Evo. That's max-buffed, with everything thrown at it.




Wizard: Human

AM or PM matters naught. Let's go PM here.

18 INT
5 level
4 tome
3 class enhancements
2 capstone
1 racial enhancement
7 item
3 exceptional 1 and 2
1 profane
2 completionist

46 unbuffed INT.

2 PM form
2 ship buff
2 Yugo

52 normal buffs INT

3 Alchemical INT potion
3 +4 profane abishai cookie set.

58 buffed INT.

24 Modifier.


Since we're Human, we get 8 feats and 5 bonus.

Completionist
Toughness
SF/GSF Necro
SPen/GSPen
SF/GSF Illusion
SF/GSF Evo
Active PL: Wizard
Heighten

And still have a feat left for Quicken or any other feat or metamagic.


With what is here, we have

10 base
9 heighten
24 INT
2 SF/GSF
2 Greater Focus Item
1 active PL.
48 DC-Illusion
1 Necro Lich- 49 Necro
3 Evo- 51 Evo




Now. You're asking.


Necro: Circle of Death, Finger of Destruction, Wail.
Illusion: Phantasmal Killer
Evo: Prismatic Ray (2 are instakill effects) and Prismatic Spray.

So, not only do you get higher DC's than a Cleric on Necro spells, you have two Evo spells with instakill effects (not even SR-dependent, mind you!) which havebetter DC's than Implosion and an Illusion spell with better DC's than a Cleric's Necro spells.


You also don't have a gimped toon, because you have one that can CC as well as instakill, vs a pretty gimp toon for their usual task outside those three spells.

You have about 250-500 more spellpoints.
You have better DC's all things considered.
You have self-healing as well as the Cleric.


I don't see how a Divine is better than a Wizard at instakills. Please prove me wrong, but I doubt you will as the math is up there for all to see.

Kabaon
06-19-2012, 09:07 AM
Snip

Thank you, someone finally shows the math. It also shows me my int is still below what it could be :P

oweieie
06-19-2012, 10:20 AM
I don't see how a Divine is better than a Wizard at instakills. Please prove me wrong, but I doubt you will as the math is up there for all to see.

You didn't maths right. A +3 alchemical potion is giving wizard 3 int and fvs 1 wis.

Regardless for sustainable you show both at 52 stat. This puts the PM 1 higher on necro DC (46 vs 45) from lich if the FvS takes necro, add in past lives and the FvS (and PM if they take the feats over enchantment) are sitting at 48 evocation as everything else is equal. This has all been said many times already.

FvS implosion DC is 2 HIGHER than PM wail DC.
FvS destruction DC is 1 lower than PM finger DC.
FvS slay DC is 1 HIGHER than PM killer DC with half the saves.

As this is a thread about the wail nerf, I think the DC disparity is relevant, as is the fact that wail doesn't hit a lot of mobs that implosion does. The rest is just pointing out why a lot of the more hard core players should seriously consider doing FvS or CLR over PM for the job PM is meant to do. Just looking at those 3 spells the FvS is coming out ahead, it's how much you value the other aspects of the class and the spells Circle of Death and the unreliable prismatic ray that will decide it for you. But right now, with the wail nerf, Implosion > Wail.

Even if the FvS doesn't take evoc spec they're still sitting at the same DC as a PM's wail.

My point was and is, the wail nerf is WAY too much.

eris2323
06-19-2012, 10:26 AM
Tried the new wail finally myself....

Not a huge fan; it's too slow.

Seems kinda useless now; I mean, for a 9th level spell....

Well, not entirely useless.... but there's not such an insanely stupid cooldown on meteor swarm, either. With limited spell slots, I'm considering getting rid of it entirely.

Who knew... the new update comes out, and the pale masters signature spell is now basically useless...

You couldn't just, I dunno, reduce the radius of the wail, turbine?

I hope the nerf on all melees is next, if this is the way spell casters are getting it.

Kabaon
06-19-2012, 10:51 AM
As this is a thread about the wail nerf, I think the DC disparity is relevant, as is the fact that wail doesn't hit a lot of mobs that implosion does. The rest is just pointing out why a lot of the more hard core players should seriously consider doing FvS or CLR over PM for the job PM is meant to do. Just looking at those 3 spells the FvS is coming out ahead, it's how much you value the other aspects of the class and the spells Circle of Death and the unreliable prismatic ray that will decide it for you. But right now, with the wail nerf, Implosion > Wail.


Basically the reason why the 'hard core" players AREN'T running FVS over a pale master is because that's all they'd be able to do is instakill, aside from that you have 3 spells for instakillng. Slay Living (short range), Destruction (long range) Implosion.

Regardless of what you think of the nerf to wail, we still have PK (long range, decent dc even if your not specced), FoD (long range), CoD (long range AoE, caps at 4), PWK (long range, no save, long cooldown) and Wail (short range, limited targets.... which it was already with no undead/constructs) Arcanes ARE the masters of instakill regardless becuase aside from Destruction we'll prolly have the target dead before you get in range to use any other spells. That's ignoring random effect spells (prismatics) and ray spells that do huge damage anyway.

In certain aspects Implosion>Wail has always been the case. Wail not hitting Undead/constructs has always been that way. Wail also hit 10+ mobs so that's why it was ahead.

Ziindarax
06-19-2012, 11:21 AM
I hope the nerf on all melees is next, if this is the way spell casters are getting it.

Excuse me, but the melee's (and to an extent, ranged characters) have ALSO gotten the shaft (and much more severely I might add).


Let's see:

Monks - Signature melee class well-known for being the most survivable melee class in the game. Now, the AC changes and introduction of a passive dodge hard-cap of 25%, have struck them with a double whammy, and are left with little in the way of compensation (currently). Thus rendering them less effective - Check.

Supreme cleave - a signature feat associated with Frenzied berserkers [currently the barbarians ONLY prestige], which used to be spammable, now has a cooldown - check.

Kensei Strength boost - a signature ability associated with kensei fighters that used to stack with everything, now reduced to a psionic bonus [thus rendering Titain cookies and gauntlets worthless while they still have their power surges] - check.

Point blank shot - A greensteel crossbow-wielding artificer used to be able to inflict around 4d10 damage per shot (with criticals in the 80's), now have seen their base DPS decreased to 3d10 (unless they use deadly weapons). Nerf negatively impacts Arcane Archers as they do not have any buffs to increase the base damage of their weapon as artificers do (and they would need said artificer with the deadly weapons spell in order to increase their base damage). - check.

Nerfed effectiveness of meta's - Kind of sour, especially for divines, but see below.

Warforged Healer's friend enhancement has been hit with a nasty bug that the developers seemingly have no intention of fixing before it reaches live. The end result will be that warforged melee's will be severely handicapped, and will require healing from arcanes/artificers and/or repair potions/scrolls/wands until this bug gets fixed (for some who've already opted for self-sufficiency, this won't be much of a problem, but for most it will be a painful hassle). - Check.

Now let's take a look at what casters are getting in the way of buffs:

Spell power changes that ultimately allow different magic-augmenting effects to stack (where before they could not). With spell power of 100 double the damage of a spell, the un-meta'd evocation spells (with all the best spell-augmenting effects in the game active on the caster, mind you!) will deal considerably more damage than they do on live currently. They will also be more efficient than using meta's which are now additive instead of multiplicative.

So even with Wail of the Banshee reduced to a carbon copy of Implosion, all of your other spells received a tremendous boost in damage, and require only a fraction of the SP to cast. The changes to wail were long over-due, and are easily survivable compared to most of the changes/bugs in this update.

MRMechMan
06-19-2012, 11:41 AM
Slay living>PK (range is rarely a factor, having 2 saves and some mobs immune to it definitely is..as well as being freaking illusion.)
destruction=FOD
implosion now>wail

It really comes down to

arcanes getting:

MORE feats
circle of death
Lich form/archmage enh (+2 DC)

Divines getting:
being able to splash monk for stance (+1DC)
Able to stack +3 sorc lives for implosion (+3DC)
Able to get +2 alchemical wisdom (+1 DC)
aura debuff [fvs only] (+2 DC)
~500more sp (fvs)

A first life Palemaster can get solid DCs and spell pen through feats, enh and decent gear. 7 int item is easy to get. Doesn't take much to get a +30pen/40 DC first lifer, and that will work OK in a lot of content.

A first life instakill divine can be a trainwreck without gear and past lives. +7 wis item is...well, there is only one on live and you need bound raid base item, shard, seal and scroll...eugh. Need to rely more on wiz/fvs PLs due to less feats for spell pen. Need sorc PLs for implosion (can skip evoc foci feats and STILL get same implosion DC as wail, higher if you could fvs debuff).

To the person who said the fvs debuff should be counted under PM DCs...um, no. Doesn't quite work that way. To the person who said the fvs needs evoc and both spell pen feats...um, no. Toughness, wiz PL, max, emp, necro focus, Gnecrofocus, heighten. Bing bang boom, done. Empower healing is not needed, unless cleric, in which case you are probably splashing monk for ocean stance, and are taking toughness as a monk feat. Can heal 95% of parties without it just fine.

To the person who said PM DCs>AM DCs-um, no, you need to learn the prestige classes. They are dead even when it comes to the pres themselves, only situational outside influences like yugopots (omniscience and WF AM=fine) or race (WF=1 DC possibly under drow, 0-1 under human) can change it.

To the person who said that divines need 3 stats, not really true. As much str/dex as a wizard. Wis same as wizards int. 8 Base Cha is enough for fvs to cast. (8+7item+2tome+2capstone=19, even starting with 10-11 is fine if you don't have capstone or +7 item). With 36 pt build can dump 16 item wisdom, 16 into con and as many as needed into cha to cover the tome situation or splashing situation. No reason not to max wisdom on a casting divine. So that is moot.

To the person who suggested this feat layout for a wizard:

"Completionist
Toughness
SF/GSF Necro
SPen/GSPen
SF/GSF Illusion
SF/GSF Evo
Active PL: Wizard
Heighten"

Please don't write such drivel as some poor noob will read it and create a necro-illusion-evocation focused wizard.

First life moderately geared, Wiz>fvs/clr, HANDS DOWN.

When you layer on past lives and gear however, the divine catches up and then, in my opinion, surpasses the arcane in some situations....a lot more situations now that wail is a shadow of its former self against situations when it can target more than 6 enemies...basically every situation a smart player would use wail in.

It takes a hell of a lot of work to create a highly effective divine instakiller, and thus they are far rarer than highly effective wizard instakillers, which require less work. But anyone who has seen a skilled player with a PLed up, max geared instakill specced fvs go to work without having to heal a party is in for a treat-it's slightly more impressive and effective than a similar palemaster, IMO. There just aren't that many of them.

Honestly though, they are FAIRLY close either way when maxed out.

Vordax
06-19-2012, 11:43 AM
Excuse me, but the melee's (and to an extent, ranged characters) have ALSO gotten the shaft (and much more severely I might add).
....


So basically, there is really nothing to look forward to in the expansion. Sounds fun.

Cadveen
06-19-2012, 11:47 AM
Are you really trying to defend the claim that divines are better in the instakill department? Anyone who knows anything can see that you don't know what you're talking about. For example, everyone can Twist or take an Epic Destiny. And wizzies also have Symbol of Death and Energy Drain. You're spouting nonsense.

Divines get Energy drain and symbol of death...umm FAIL!

Kabaon
06-19-2012, 12:00 PM
Ok, FVS DO need 3 stats in order to cast spells. They need CHA to cast even level 1 spells. If you have an 8 cha at level 1, YOU CAN'T CAST AT ALL. So until you reach level 5 (on a TR fvs with an ioun stone unsupressed for +6 cha) or at least level 11 with a RR item with +6 cha you won't be able to cast any spells. You NEED 16 cha to cast level 1-9 spells in DDO,

So yes, a FVS needs 3 stats, Cha for the ability to cast, wis for dc's, and con for hp.

Vordax
06-19-2012, 12:15 PM
Ok, FVS DO need 3 stats in order to cast spells. They need CHA to cast even level 1 spells. If you have an 8 cha at level 1, YOU CAN'T CAST AT ALL. So until you reach level 5 (on a TR fvs with an ioun stone unsupressed for +6 cha) or at least level 11 with a RR item with +6 cha you won't be able to cast any spells. You NEED 16 cha to cast level 1-9 spells in DDO,

So yes, a FVS needs 3 stats, Cha for the ability to cast, wis for dc's, and con for hp.

The no min level rings from the madness chain helps here. In addition, eagles splendor potion is +4 for 3 minutes (soon to be 5 minutes). Ship buff +2, Cannith crafted +2 is ML 1 (with master craftsmanship), by level 3 your tome will add +1. Then FVS charisma +1 at level 2.

So by level 3, starting 8 charisma with cannith crafting you can have:

8
+1 tome
+1 FVS charisma
+3 Charisma item
----
13
+2 ship buff
----
15

So at level 3 you have a high enough charisma to cast level 3 spells (or 5th with ship buff). Charisma is a dump stat for FVS.

MRMechMan
06-19-2012, 12:17 PM
Ok, FVS DO need 3 stats in order to cast spells. They need CHA to cast even level 1 spells. If you have an 8 cha at level 1, YOU CAN'T CAST AT ALL. So until you reach level 5 (on a TR fvs with an ioun stone unsupressed for +6 cha) or at least level 11 with a RR item with +6 cha you won't be able to cast any spells. You NEED 16 cha to cast level 1-9 spells in DDO,

So yes, a FVS needs 3 stats, Cha for the ability to cast, wis for dc's, and con for hp.

If you are talking about stat investment, 8 cha is definitely viable.

I wouldn't do it on a TR build as it is a needless hassle. I wouldn't even go 8 cha on a final build as 36pts=enough to max con, wisdom and STILL put some into cha. But it is doable.

Level1:BTA +2 cha item no ML=10 cha total (OMG I cannot cast spells these sahugin are butchering me as I cannot cast nimbus of light ohhhh the horror)
Level2:BTA +2 cha item no ML, +1 fvs cha=11cha total, can cast lvl1 spells
Level3:BTA +2cha item no ML, +1 fvs cha, +1tome=12 cha total, can cast lvl2 spells, not that you have them yet
Level5:Helm of frost +3 cha, +1fvs cha, +1tome=13cha total, can cast lvl3 spells when you get them next level
Level7:Helm of frost +3cha, +1fvs cha, +2tome=14cha total, can cast lvl4 spells when you get them next level
Level9:Helm of frost +3cha, +2 fvs cha, +2tome=15cha total, can cast lvl5 spells when you get them next level
Level11:Helm of frost +3cha, +2fvs cha, +3tome=16cha total, can cast lvl6 spells when you get them next level
Level13:+6 cha item, +2 fvs cha, +3 tome=19 cha total, enough to cast till cap (fvs cha 3 if you only have +2book)
Level20:+7cha item, +2capstone, +3tome=20 cha, enough to cast anything you want.

This isn't even considering shipbuffs and cannith crafting.

SO there is ONE level that it is an issue. Level 1. If you can deal with it for the 5-10min that level1 takes, then no, fvs is not a "3 stat class". If you don't have +3 tome or +7 cha item, then spend a few AP on fvs cha 1/2 till you gear up.

But we are talking about max DCs and such, so I am assuming 36pt builds, decent endgame gear, and people that have half a brain.

Kabaon
06-19-2012, 12:32 PM
Maybe if your twinked out and in a guild with a +2 cha shrine I'd say sure. But if you are a first life toon who isn't in a guild with a 60+ ship and have access to no ml-rings (which they took out so if you didn't get one your **** out of luck) then you have to up your stats with cha.

And you don't HAVE a +7 item until level 20, and the tomes don't INSTANTLY give you +3 at level 1. You don't even get +1 until level 3. It's gated. +1 at 3, +2 at 7, +3 at 11, and +4 at 15. So at low levels, yeah CHA is a big deal.

Now if your twinked out (not everyone is) sure, Cha can be a dump stat and then you'd be a 2 stat class with Con and Wis.

Also, you may get higher dc's than a PM somehow (if you count PL feats wizzies could do that too) but it still means very little when we can get the mobs dead before you reach them. Maybe if you winged to a group before a PM sure, but most of the time we can kill at least 3-7 of the mobs before you wing over and cast implosion.

PK is very viable even with dual saves. Many mobs DON'T have immunity to fear (the devils in shavrath do, but very few others don't), and it has a higher range than Slay Living, which while it has only one save, is a touch effect, you have to be literally standing close enough for it to actually work.

FoD=Destruction

Wail<Implosion in certain cases. Wail=Implosion in certain situations

And then we have CoD, PWK, and random chance instakill spells. You don't. So again, Arcanes>Divines when it comes to instakills

MRMechMan
06-19-2012, 12:35 PM
Maybe if your twinked out and in a guild with a +2 cha shrine I'd say sure. But if you are a first life toon who isn't in a guild with a 60+ ship and have access to no ml-rings (which they took out so if you didn't get one your **** out of luck) then you have to up your stats with cha.

And you don't HAVE a +7 item until level 20, and the tomes don't INSTANTLY give you +3 at level 1. You don't even get +1 until level 3. It's gated. +1 at 3, +2 at 7, +3 at 11, and +4 at 15. So at low levels, yeah CHA is a big deal.


1. Read my post again.

2. Slap yourself. In the face. How hard is up to you.

eris2323
06-19-2012, 12:40 PM
Excuse me, but the melee's (and to an extent, ranged characters) have ALSO gotten the shaft (and much more severely I might add).

So even with Wail of the Banshee reduced to a carbon copy of Implosion, all of your other spells received a tremendous boost in damage, and require only a fraction of the SP to cast. The changes to wail were long over-due, and are easily survivable compared to most of the changes/bugs in this update.

All that may be as it may be; I just don't think wail is all that useful any more at all; kind of seems like a waste of a spell slot...

kind of sad to see such a signature spell go... When I could just use AOE's nowadays, it's hardly worth taking...

But since dps is the way to go nowadays, perhaps I'll do the next few lives of mine sorc for a change....

I didn't want to get into a whole 'thing' about who's getting what nerfs, just posting my feelings about the new wail...

Kabaon
06-19-2012, 12:50 PM
I re-read your post. Basically claims that you don't need Cha in any form because of items/tomes/pots. Blah blah blah.

If your casting specced why WOULDN'T you go with more sp. I mean yes, you can get about the same amount of sp as a wizard with a 10-11 cha, but you don't have that many good offensive spells.

But if your not going to swing a sword, I dunno why you wouldn't up it at all, especially on a 36 point build. 18 wis, 18 con, 12 cha. Problem solved. Or as you said 16 con, 16 wis, 16 cha

Not gonna slap myself because I have a different view point on viability of casters. If I cycle through my spells I don't have to wait for as many cool downs as a fvs, from a distance. Not that I have an issue being hit in combat, just saying my 5-7 instakills trumps your three 3 regardless of the viability of implosion vs wail, or slay living vs pk.

loren9109
06-19-2012, 12:59 PM
Most of the discussions are based on current end game gear and builds. A few factors that might matter:

Arcanes gain a lot of caster level/spell pen boost with epic destiny lines that dont sync with divine casting and divine casting stat. It could make a difference in epic hard/elite mobs with SR.

Divine insta kills are split into 2 schools in a more detrimental way than arcanes. Imho PK is not such an important spell to be taken into casting routine even with the new wail change (but that might be just me). For current end game content a divine can use 3 sorc PLs to backup their implosion and take necro focus, but with the introduction of epic spell focus feats, dc boost in epic destinies, and new loots etc, arcanes (or at least PMs/necro AM) can pick necro and be good while divines must take care of evoc and necro at the same time (and with much more grinding on fate points too as divine and arcane trees are far from each other). The discrepancies might add up in the most difficult contents.

Oh and splashing monk means losing another lvl9 spell slot. If you take mass heal and implosion you'll lose energy drain. It's not a small sacrifice in instakilling for +1 dc imho...

MRMechMan
06-19-2012, 01:10 PM
The FVS gets ~20sp more per two points in CHA. Aka, not worth it, ever. The FVS will have more SP than wizard, anyway, pumping SP stat or not.

I never mentioned 16con/16wis/16cha as that would not be a good way to build a wis based DC divine caster.

18wis 18con 12cha is fine...same as the wizards 18int 18con, so your calling the fvs a "Three stat class" was wrong.

I have no idea why you assume that a fvs/clr needs to swing a sword because it starts with low cha. Implosion, SL and destruct are enough spells to cycle through usually. Getting 2 single target single save necro instakills is very nice. Range is very seldom an issue unless you are squishy or lack basic motor skills.

PK is fine in some content (low saves, so easy anyway) but in others the dual will/fort save, fear issue and the fact that NO ONE specs for illusion means that it is in general a MEDIOCRE CHOICE, particularly as it is a level 4 spell. Palemasters in particular really need to try hard to squeeze in another 4th level spell (aura, neg burst, Ddoor 100% needed, then 2 of stoneskin, acid rain, ice storm, firewall, enervation, fireshield, crushing despair, PK....it looks cool and all but really tough to justify even picking it up, much less speccing for it). It's a trap.

Slay living, on the other hand, has same school as other insta (necro), 1 save, is not useless in amrath, and has very little competition for spell slotsat its level.

Kabaon
06-19-2012, 01:24 PM
I veiw PK has even a half decent choice overall because it still has a decent save even if you don't spec in it. 39+ is still a decent value.

Also DDoor isn't 100% needed, maybe 10%, but defiantly not 100%. Aside from 1-2 quests where it makes it slightly easier (New Invasion and Rainbow for high level, Tempest spine for low) it basically has very little use.

You know what spell I use instead. Fire Shield. It works in Shroud for meteor swarms, ToD for shadows and it great if your tanking things weak against fire or cold.

I can fit Ice Storm, Fire Shield, Aura, Burst, and Stoneskin... and if I want to use PK, I drop Ice Storm because I use it the least of all my cold spells.

sgz
06-19-2012, 02:50 PM
I veiw PK has even a half decent choice overall because it still has a decent save even if you don't spec in it. 39+ is still a decent value.

Also DDoor isn't 100% needed, maybe 10%, but defiantly not 100%. Aside from 1-2 quests where it makes it slightly easier (New Invasion and Rainbow for high level, Tempest spine for low) it basically has very little use.

You know what spell I use instead. Fire Shield. It works in Shroud for meteor swarms, ToD for shadows and it great if your tanking things weak against fire or cold.

I can fit Ice Storm, Fire Shield, Aura, Burst, and Stoneskin... and if I want to use PK, I drop Ice Storm because I use it the least of all my cold spells.


DDoor is not "needed" per say, but it is an extremely useful utility spell in a LOT more quests than what you listed above. Of the ones you listed, 2 can be scrolled/wanded and need not take up a slot if you prefer other options,
whereas DDoor isn't easily scrollable (think i've looted 2 total out of all my characters).

Running a quest without having DDoor slotted, is the only one of the three (Fire Shield/Stoneskin/DDoor) which has forced me to abandon/restart/re-enter a quest because i didn't have it (try getting out of a lava pool that has no way up, after falling through invisible holes in the floor without DDoor slotted :P ).

Chai
06-19-2012, 03:06 PM
I veiw PK has even a half decent choice overall because it still has a decent save even if you don't spec in it. 39+ is still a decent value.

Also DDoor isn't 100% needed, maybe 10%, but defiantly not 100%. Aside from 1-2 quests where it makes it slightly easier (New Invasion and Rainbow for high level, Tempest spine for low) it basically has very little use.

You know what spell I use instead. Fire Shield. It works in Shroud for meteor swarms, ToD for shadows and it great if your tanking things weak against fire or cold.

I can fit Ice Storm, Fire Shield, Aura, Burst, and Stoneskin... and if I want to use PK, I drop Ice Storm because I use it the least of all my cold spells.

Ddoor is a fantastic spell and is one of the most under-rated tools in the game.

It cuts VON 5 completions in half timewise.
It makes running challenge quests far more convenient.
It cuts wiz king completion time down.
It cuts shadow crypt completion time down.

There are multiple other quests like lordsmarch series quests, madstone crater, necro series, etc where it shaves minutes off completion times. Running up TR lives is far more convenient with dimension door. People might take those time increments for granted, until their friends are capping and they are still level 18 with 800k XP to go.

Aashrym
06-19-2012, 06:27 PM
Are you really trying to defend the claim that divines are better in the instakill department? Anyone who knows anything can see that you don't know what you're talking about. For example, everyone can Twist or take an Epic Destiny. And wizzies also have Symbol of Death and Energy Drain. You're spouting nonsense.

I'm pointing out that all those players who are stating wizards have higher DC's are mistaken compared to a divine caster who grinds the gear and past lives, even before epic destinies, which can also increase that gap.

A divine caster's ability to instant kill is better than you seem to be giving credit. An arcane caster does have a few more spells to add to the mix but but the DC's themselves are not a big negative for those divine casters who do grind out the lives and gear.

I think the wail nerf might have gone a bit farther than necessary.

To the player who said arcane casters can do that too.... the past life free feat do not add to any mass instant kill spell for arcane casters like they do for implosion.

Habreno
06-19-2012, 10:25 PM
Doing the breakdowns since none of you will:

Cleric (which, BTW, gets 1 higher WIS and in the end 1 higher DC from it-since your Soul debuff affects everyone you can't count on it and therefore we are going with the superior divine casting class)

18 base WIS
5 levelups
4 tome
3 class enhancements
1 racial enhancement
7 item
3 exceptional 1 and 2
2 alchemical item
1 profane
2 water stance monk splash (19-1 can do this, you don't need 2 levels like most people think)
2 completionist

48 unbuffed WIS.
2 ship buff
2 yugo potion

52 buffed WIS.

1 +3 alchemical potion
3 +4 profane abishai cookie set

56 unsustainable buffed WIS.
23 modifier.


Note that we get 9 feats on this build (which is 19/1 Cleric/Monk) and have used one already on Completionist.

We need Heighten.
SPen/GSPen
SF/GSF Necro
SF/GSF Evo
Active PL: Wizard

No toughness, very few metamagics, no Quicken. And what's even worse is this feat layout can't even be taken, since none of those will fit into our 9th feat slot which is a Monk bonus feat.

Now we need to add a Wizard level. This drops our spell pen down AGAIN, meaning that one of those Spell Pen feats is now utterly wasted on the two splashed levels. This lets us take Toughness in the Monk Bonus feat slot, we take Heighten in the Wizard Bonus Feat Slot, and the other 8 are normal feats.


So, now we've gimped our spell pen a bit, gimped our DPS since we have no metamagics except Heighten, gimped our SP bar, and severely gimped our healing (no Empower Healing, so no PrE)


Let's just assume we're dealing with the idealistic build here, since everyone thinks that's what we have. So 3x PL in everything.


10 base DC
9 Heighten
23 WIS modifier
2 Spell Focus Feats
2 Greater Focus Item
1 Wiz PL
47 DC Necro.
3x Sorc PL
50 DC Evo.


On a rather gimped build otherwise. Can't heal out of a paper bag, no Toughness, practically no spell DPS. Just for 3 instakills.


Now, remember that 47 Necro and 50 Evo. That's max-buffed, with everything thrown at it.




Wizard: Human

AM or PM matters naught. Let's go PM here.

18 INT
5 level
4 tome
3 class enhancements
2 capstone
1 racial enhancement
7 item
3 exceptional 1 and 2
1 profane
2 completionist

46 unbuffed INT.

2 PM form
2 ship buff
2 Yugo

52 normal buffs INT

3 Alchemical INT potion
3 +4 profane abishai cookie set.

58 buffed INT.

24 Modifier.


Since we're Human, we get 8 feats and 5 bonus.

Completionist
Toughness
SF/GSF Necro
SPen/GSPen
SF/GSF Illusion
SF/GSF Evo
Active PL: Wizard
Heighten

And still have a feat left for Quicken or any other feat or metamagic.


With what is here, we have

10 base
9 heighten
24 INT
2 SF/GSF
2 Greater Focus Item
1 active PL.
48 DC-Illusion
1 Necro Lich- 49 Necro
3 Evo- 51 Evo




Now. You're asking.


Necro: Circle of Death, Finger of Destruction, Wail.
Illusion: Phantasmal Killer
Evo: Prismatic Ray (2 are instakill effects) and Prismatic Spray.

So, not only do you get higher DC's than a Cleric on Necro spells, you have two Evo spells with instakill effects (not even SR-dependent, mind you!) which havebetter DC's than Implosion and an Illusion spell with better DC's than a Cleric's Necro spells.


You also don't have a gimped toon, because you have one that can CC as well as instakill, vs a pretty gimp toon for their usual task outside those three spells.

You have about 250-500 more spellpoints.
You have better DC's all things considered.
You have self-healing as well as the Cleric.


I don't see how a Divine is better than a Wizard at instakills. Please prove me wrong, but I doubt you will as the math is up there for all to see.

Highlights pertaining to quoted post #2 in Purple.


You didn't maths right. A +3 alchemical potion is giving wizard 3 int and fvs 1 wis.

This is because in the sustainable WIS breakdown (and it's a Cleric, not a Favored Soul, which just shows you didn't read the post appropraitely, but I don't even have to use that debate point) there is a +2 Alchemical Wisdom item being used, as this IS obtainable as a sustainable item through Alchemical Weapons. Therefore, the +3 potion is only +1 OVER this +2 bonus. As Intelligence is not an option for these Alchemical Weapons, the potion is +3 OVER the nonexistent sustainable bonus. I will highlight this in my quoted post above specifically so you can see the math is indeed correct.

Regardless for sustainable you show both at 52 stat. This puts the PM 1 higher on necro DC (46 vs 45) from lich if the FvS takes necro, add in past lives and the FvS (and PM if they take the feats over enchantment) are sitting at 48 evocation as everything else is equal. This has all been said many times already.

You (nonspecific) wanted a comparison. I gave a breakdown. Now you complain my breakdown is biased. Well, if my breakdown is biased, provide your own, or accept mine.

Also, a Favored Soul, ALL THINGS THE SAME, has a 1 LOWER DC than a Cleric.

Cleric implosion DC is 2 HIGHER than PM wail DC.Yes.
Cleric destruction DC is 1 lower than PM finger DC. Two, not one. Necro is 47 Cleric to 49 Wizard.
Cleric slay DC is 1 HIGHER than PM killer DC with half the saves. Only true if Wizard does not take SF/GSF Illusion. If they do, the Cleric Slay DC is 1 LOWER.

As this is a thread about the wail nerf, I think the DC disparity is relevant, as is the fact that wail doesn't hit a lot of mobs that implosion does. The rest is just pointing out why a lot of the more hard core players should seriously consider doing FvS or CLR over PM for the job PM is meant to do. Just looking at those 3 spells the FvS is coming out ahead, it's how much you value the other aspects of the class and the spells Circle of Death and the unreliable prismatic ray that will decide it for you. But right now, with the wail nerf, Implosion > Wail.

Your opinion is fine, in fact it is mine-Wail is getting the nerfbat a bit hard.

Even if the FvS doesn't take evoc spec they're still sitting at the same DC as a PM's wail.

1 Lower.

My point was and is, the wail nerf is WAY too much.

Comments in purple.


Slay living>PK (range is rarely a factor, having 2 saves and some mobs immune to it definitely is..as well as being freaking illusion.)
destruction=FOD
implosion now>wail

It really comes down to

arcanes getting:

MORE feats
circle of death
Lich form/archmage enh (+2 DC)

Divines getting:
being able to splash monk for stance (+1DC)
Able to stack +3 sorc lives for implosion (+3DC)
Able to get +2 alchemical wisdom (+1 DC)
aura debuff [fvs only] (+2 DC)
~500more sp (fvs)

A first life Palemaster can get solid DCs and spell pen through feats, enh and decent gear. 7 int item is easy to get. Doesn't take much to get a +30pen/40 DC first lifer, and that will work OK in a lot of content.

A first life instakill divine can be a trainwreck without gear and past lives. +7 wis item is...well, there is only one on live and you need bound raid base item, shard, seal and scroll...eugh. Need to rely more on wiz/fvs PLs due to less feats for spell pen. Need sorc PLs for implosion (can skip evoc foci feats and STILL get same implosion DC as wail, higher if you could fvs debuff).

To the person who said the fvs debuff should be counted under PM DCs...um, no. Doesn't quite work that way. To the person who said the fvs needs evoc and both spell pen feats...um, no. Toughness, wiz PL, max, emp, necro focus, Gnecrofocus, heighten. Bing bang boom, done. Empower healing is not needed, unless cleric, in which case you are probably splashing monk for ocean stance, and are taking toughness as a monk feat. Can heal 95% of parties without it just fine.

Why does the FvS debuff not get applied to Wizards? It will work for both parties involved.

I was providing an example of what you need on a CLERIC (not a Favored Soul, their DC's are 1 lower than a Cleric's so they're even more gimp in that aspect) for actually maxing out your casting. The feat layout I provided still does not provide enough benefit to the Cleric in that it is still very lacking to healing with very few metas. You could drop SF/GSF Evo, but then your Implosion DC is now 1 lower than Wail. And the whole point of the build is to outdo a Wizard in instakills, is it not? Otherwise, if it was clear that a Wizard is in fact a better instakiller than a Cleric, let alone a Favored Soul who's DC's are lower than a Cleric's, then there would be very little debate as to divines supposedly being better instakillers with this nerf and thus an undo of the nerf is now in order.

The feat list I provided does provide the optimum benefit for both Implosion and single-target instakill DC's.

To the person who said PM DCs>AM DCs-um, no, you need to learn the prestige classes. They are dead even when it comes to the pres themselves, only situational outside influences like yugopots (omniscience and WF AM=fine) or race (WF=1 DC possibly under drow, 0-1 under human) can change it.

To the person who said that divines need 3 stats, not really true. As much str/dex as a wizard. Wis same as wizards int. 8 Base Cha is enough for fvs to cast. (8+7item+2tome+2capstone=19, even starting with 10-11 is fine if you don't have capstone or +7 item). With 36 pt build can dump 16 item wisdom, 16 into con and as many as needed into cha to cover the tome situation or splashing situation. No reason not to max wisdom on a casting divine. So that is moot.

A Cleric does not need CHA for casting, and as that is the class with a better DC, there is no need to be discussing Favored Souls, as their DC's are lower. If you wish, I will prove this point to you and everyone else, but I'd rather not have to type another 30 minute post to prove a simple point that has relatively little meaning.

To the person who suggested this feat layout for a wizard:

"Completionist
Toughness
SF/GSF Necro
SPen/GSPen
SF/GSF Illusion
SF/GSF Evo
Active PL: Wizard
Heighten"

Please don't write such drivel as some poor noob will read it and create a necro-illusion-evocation focused wizard.

I simply did the same concept as with the Cleric-max your DC's in every possible instakill. Of course it's not ideal-it's not supposed to be. But it's supposed to be a comparison for use with the other rather nonideal comparison Divine. The point of both feat layouts is to max your DC's in every possible instakill.

First life moderately geared, Wiz>fvs/clr, HANDS DOWN.

When you layer on past lives and gear however, the divine catches up and then, in my opinion, surpasses the arcane in some situations....a lot more situations now that wail is a shadow of its former self against situations when it can target more than 6 enemies...basically every situation a smart player would use wail in.

It takes a hell of a lot of work to create a highly effective divine instakiller, and thus they are far rarer than highly effective wizard instakillers, which require less work. But anyone who has seen a skilled player with a PLed up, max geared instakill specced fvs go to work without having to heal a party is in for a treat-it's slightly more impressive and effective than a similar palemaster, IMO. There just aren't that many of them.

Honestly though, they are FAIRLY close either way when maxed out.

Wizards are still ahead on raw DC's. No math or figuring you can do will change that. The only advantage the divine has is a barely higher mass-instakill DC.




Now, for those of you who do not believe that a Cleric has higher DC's than a Favored Soul, consider this.

Clerics get 3 class enhancements to boost Wisdom.

Favored Souls get 2 class enhancements to boost Wisdom.

A Cleric who utterly maxes his Wisdom will have an even Wisdom score.

Therefore, since a Favored Soul will have 1 less, he will be odd, and rounded DOWN to the next lower modifier. Therefore, all things equal, a Cleric has a higher DC than a Favored Soul. There is -0- math you can do that can prove this otherwise.

DarkForte
06-19-2012, 10:57 PM
Hence, the FvS' effective DC against a mob standing in his aura of menace is 1 higher than the cleric.

Faent
06-19-2012, 11:01 PM
Divines get Energy drain and symbol of death...umm FAIL!

And now we've come full circle. I was responding to somebody who pointed out some spells divines get. Since, as I pointed out, wizards also get them, the fact that divines get Energy Drain and Symbol of Death doesn't help boost the divine over the wizard. It was you who failed, not me.

MRMechMan
06-19-2012, 11:10 PM
ONE: I did not count the FAVORED SOUL aura in the wizard DC because a wizard will not always have a favored soul around. Pretty obvious stuff.

TWO: Your necro/evoc/illusion completionist build is so far out there that it has ZERO relevency, hypothetical or no.

THREE: clerics have 1 higher DC but the fvs aura puts them ahead. When there is a fvs aura for the cleric to benefit and both are max geared, YES, the cleric is 1 DC higher. But as a cleric I would not expect to have fvs aura.

FOUR: Hilarious how you ignore the fvs debuff unless it a )is helping a wizard b)is helping a cleric and shows how they are worse than a wizard because you can ignore fvs.

FIVE: If I was in your position I could not mention illusion spell foci and keep a straight face.

SIX: I would still put alchemical +2 wisdom as a +1 total DC in favor of divines. Alchemical pots are only sustainable if you are totally anal about getting max DC, aka only posting on a message board and not actually having to get/drink the damn things on a regular basis. If you actually use them 100% of the time more power to you, but I am fairly certain no one does.

Faent
06-19-2012, 11:16 PM
But anyone who has seen a skilled player with a PLed up, max geared instakill specced fvs go to work without having to heal a party is in for a treat-it's slightly more impressive and effective than a similar palemaster, IMO.

I am still not buying this. Yes, it is very impressive to see these FvS's in action. They are some of the best players in the game. Compare them to the best Pale Masters or Archmages in the game, and you'll find that they cannot come remotely close to leading the killcount.

Wizards have far more ways to lower their target's DC's than divines. The new Wail adds yet another way, in addition to the wizard's ability to trap mobs in DC-lowering spell-effects such as Solid Fog, Mind Fog and Cloudkill. There's also Crushing Despair and Hypnotism (available to an Arch Mage for 3 SP). And if we're going full ****** here, there's the Enervation SLA. This doesn't even begin to cover them all, but it's sufficient to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that a wizard has far higher "effective" DC's.

Since they also have *more* instakill spells, there is simply no question that they dominate divines in instakill territory.

volaxis1
06-19-2012, 11:41 PM
Still prefer Archmage WF with necro and enchantment focus, can cast disco and go afk while a cleric heals me. For solo I prefer my FVS though, destruction with slay living has less cooldown than just finger and BB kills mobs ice storm wont, quest dependent of course, if the mobs stand still ill use the sorc box.

Either way groups will still need CC and being a wizard these days is not about soloing but creating a stage for others to have fun. I could run through and kill everything but I just kill the worst stuff and hold some nice mobs to give melee something to beat on. Wizards who finger mobs that are on 5%, stealing the kill, then boast about how uber they are with their kill count miss the point of being in a group. Wizards can make magic more ways than one.

oweieie
06-19-2012, 11:42 PM
the wizard's ability to trap mobs in DC-lowering spell-effects such as Solid Fog, Mind Fog and Cloudkill. There's also Crushing Despair and Hypnotism (available to an Arch Mage for 3 SP).

Yeah, by the time the wizard gets a cloudkill off even MELEE could have killed everything in the room. Get real.

Faent
06-19-2012, 11:45 PM
Yeah, by the time the wizard gets a cloudkill off even MELEE could have killed everything in the room. Get real.

Obviously, you have never run an Epic Devil Assault.

oweieie
06-19-2012, 11:56 PM
Obviously, you have never run an Epic Devil Assault.

Obviously you have never run any other quest where you actually go to the mobs instead of the other way around. We're talking about insta kills here, if you have to two stage it with a long cast area spell, then get the mobs to get into it before you can cast, it's pretty bloody useless, you may as well be blade barrier kiting at that point.

Faent
06-20-2012, 12:13 AM
Obviously you have never run any other quest where you actually go to the mobs instead of the other way around. We're talking about insta kills here, if you have to two stage it with a long cast area spell, then get the mobs to get into it before you can cast, it's pretty bloody useless, you may as well be blade barrier kiting at that point.

In those situations, you typically kill it from range before the FvS closes enough to get their aura benefit to DC's. And no, you don't always prep with Cloudkill, silly guy. If you need to prep, there are other fast-casting spells you can use from range. Try to keep yourself on point.

Matuse
06-20-2012, 04:59 AM
Therefore, since a Favored Soul will have 1 less, he will be odd, and rounded DOWN to the next lower modifier. Therefore, all things equal, a Cleric has a higher DC than a Favored Soul. There is -0- math you can do that can prove this otherwise.

While possibly true on Live, U14 will be changing this, by having the item cap for stats be +8 instead of +7 as it is Live. Changing to a +8 item means the Cleric is now the one who goes up to an odd number that they can't level off to the next tier.

Kabaon
06-20-2012, 07:28 AM
While possibly true on Live, U14 will be changing this, by having the item cap for stats be +8 instead of +7 as it is Live. Changing to a +8 item means the Cleric is now the one who goes up to an odd number that they can't level off to the next tier.

Epic Stat feat should do the trick, unless you wanna give up Epic Mental Toughness, or Epic Toughness, or Epic Spell pen (for casters)

Malky
06-20-2012, 07:35 AM
While possibly true on Live, U14 will be changing this, by having the item cap for stats be +8 instead of +7 as it is Live. Changing to a +8 item means the Cleric is now the one who goes up to an odd number that they can't level off to the next tier.

Live : +7 +1 +2 -> +10
Beta : +8 +1 +3 -> +12

Both are even.

twigzz
06-20-2012, 07:57 AM
This change sucks..... Why o why do the dev's want everyone to be the same? If you wanted to limit 6 kills then limit it to six kills. No need to tick IMO. Just stupid.

Habreno
06-20-2012, 10:05 AM
ONE: I did not count the FAVORED SOUL aura in the wizard DC because a wizard will not always have a favored soul around. Pretty obvious stuff.

You still fail to accept that it is not a personal debuff but applies to everyone. Therfore, in keeping *all* factors the same, this is applied to everyone. If you want to talk where Divines can get better DC's than Wizards, then, yes, I am going the full nine yards and showing you that even a stupid build which maxes DC's out will STILL not beat a Wizard who does the same. And the sad thing is even if you went Favored Soul, applied your debuff, and didn't apply it for the Wizard (Which, by the way, means that not all factors are now the same which therefore invalidates the comparison) you would only be equal. You *still* will not beat the Wizard in DC's.

TWO: Your necro/evoc/illusion completionist build is so far out there that it has ZERO relevency, hypothetical or no.

And the divine build with SF/GSF in Necro and Evo is the same. The point is that if you want to max your DC's, this is how you do it, stupid as it is. Nobody who's going to grind the past lives will do this because it's not the best way to go. It's for comparison purposes, and I thought after saying that a few times you would realize that. If you want to talk about the hypothetical Divine DC being higher in instakills, then that's fine, but don't expect me to just use two vastly different builds.

THREE: clerics have 1 higher DC but the fvs aura puts them ahead. When there is a fvs aura for the cleric to benefit and both are max geared, YES, the cleric is 1 DC higher. But as a cleric I would not expect to have fvs aura.

And you cannot count on the Aura on a Soul, since its range is short and your instakill range is longer. You could be standing in one spot, instakill something in range, and it was not debuffed. Because this aura is so limited and is not a personal debuff I did not and will not count it in my comparisions.

FOUR: Hilarious how you ignore the fvs debuff unless it a )is helping a wizard b)is helping a cleric and shows how they are worse than a wizard because you can ignore fvs.

I'm going pure *what-is-100%-going-to-affect-the-mob* NOT with *this may debuff the mob, let's count it* because if you LOOK at the debuff it's rather limited. Range, IIRC, is 15, while most spells have normal range of 30, IIRC. Therefore since it's limited in such fashion I could not include it and be accurate.

FIVE: If I was in your position I could not mention illusion spell foci and keep a straight face.

You want a theoretical comparsion? Fine. You get one. I quite frankly think it's a stupid argument that divines get higher DC's than Wizards and will only be true if you take a very poorly geared Wizard vs a rather well geared Divine. But giving them the max in everything, the Wizard will STILL beat out the Cleric, and the Soul as well unless only the Soul gets their rather limited aura debuff.

SIX: I would still put alchemical +2 wisdom as a +1 total DC in favor of divines. Alchemical pots are only sustainable if you are totally anal about getting max DC, aka only posting on a message board and not actually having to get/drink the damn things on a regular basis. If you actually use them 100% of the time more power to you, but I am fairly certain no one does.

That would be why it's under the "unsustainable" category of the breakdown... Perhaps if you did read the entirety of the posts you would be realizing this.



Now, that's some fine debating there, however poorly aimed. If you really want to debate, create your own comparison of both a Cleric and a Wizard aimed at instakills in their spell selections. I could quite frankly guarantee that if you max everything out, the Cleric will not be ahead. The Favored Soul is only 1 over the Cleric if their aura is "working" and there's too much limitation involved with the aura to count it full-time as a debuff-and the fact that it is, in the end, a mass debuff and not a personal debuff which means you can't even count it in a debate at all as it means factors are no longer "even" with only class differing.




My challenge to you is to show me an equally-geared PAIR of toons, one Divine, one Arcane, where with all factors equal, the Divine has better DC's in their instakill spells. Because if you cannot do that, then there is no reason to debate the breakdown I have provided as it is showing what you would be showing. And if you can figure out how to do it, keeping all factors the same except class and preforce feat selection (both of which are specc'ed for max-DC's) then I will guarantee that you did not make things equal and I will definitely call you on it. If you want to debate, then show your proof. Otherwise, there's no argument you can provide.

MRMechMan
06-20-2012, 11:38 AM
So alchemical is in the sustainable category for the divine and (very) unsustainable for the arcane. In practice, that is +1 DC.

Of course the aura is not a personal debuff...but the majority of the time it WILL count for the fvs (always SL, always implosion, often destruction) whereas it might not even count for the wizard if there is a fvs IN the party based on proximity. I'd say 90-95% of the time on my fvs, if I am instakilling something it is effected by the aura.

Keeping all factors the same is important in a comparison. Giving the wizard the same benefit of a fvs aura as the fvs is just silly.

WIZ get +3 necro DC from lich form +necro ,+2int and +2 capstone. Or +2 AM enh if AM. +3 either way. +4 if the 3rd int class enhancement pushes them to even.

FVS get +3 implosion DC from sorc PLs, +2 aura (YES I AM COUNTING THE AURA), +1 (alch +2 wis, YES I am counting that as a +1 DC as no wizard in theiir right mind runs around with an alchemical bonus all the time, most of the time or even some of the time. It's a...paly in ELOB! kinda thing...so not counting it. Whereas a +2 wis alchemical is not THAT hard to get, and more importantly, it lasts forever) Could even splash monk for 1 more DC but most won't do that as the fvs capstone is too damn good and you want all 3 lvl9 spells.

So SL, destruction will be 1 lower than wizard. Even if monksplash. Implosion will be 2 higher. 3 higher if monksplash. Pretty darn even I'd say.

Your speccing a wizard for illusion and evocation for PK;a spell that is almost impossible to fit on palemasters, has 2 saves and some mobs are immune, and prismatic spray, a spell that doesn't even instakill all the time is a joke. quote "I'm going pure *what-is-100%-going-to-affect-the-mob*" endquote. Get real. Should we also count improved sunder?

Having slay living and destruction is essentially like having 2 fingers of death in many cases. Implosion is now better than wail (which I think is wrong). Circle of death is all wizards really get over divines, and the ability to ignore wizard PL, fvs PL, sorc PL and still get a strong spell pen/DC. FVS need more PLs to make them on par, but when both are max PLed/geared they are pretty close. Before the wail nerf I would put wizards moderately ahead. Now, I'd say divines are at least as good if not better.

Habreno
06-20-2012, 01:50 PM
So alchemical is in the sustainable category for the divine and (very) unsustainable for the arcane. In practice, that is +1 DC.

Of course the aura is not a personal debuff...but the majority of the time it WILL count for the fvs (always SL, always implosion, often destruction) whereas it might not even count for the wizard if there is a fvs IN the party based on proximity. I'd say 90-95% of the time on my fvs, if I am instakilling something it is effected by the aura.

Keeping all factors the same is important in a comparison. Giving the wizard the same benefit of a fvs aura as the fvs is just silly.

WIZ get +3 necro DC from lich form +necro ,+2int and +2 capstone. Or +2 AM enh if AM. +3 either way. +4 if the 3rd int class enhancement pushes them to even.

FVS get +3 implosion DC from sorc PLs, +2 aura (YES I AM COUNTING THE AURA), +1 (alch +2 wis, YES I am counting that as a +1 DC as no wizard in theiir right mind runs around with an alchemical bonus all the time, most of the time or even some of the time. It's a...paly in ELOB! kinda thing...so not counting it. Whereas a +2 wis alchemical is not THAT hard to get, and more importantly, it lasts forever) Could even splash monk for 1 more DC but most won't do that as the fvs capstone is too damn good and you want all 3 lvl9 spells.

So SL, destruction will be 1 lower than wizard. Even if monksplash. Implosion will be 2 higher. 3 higher if monksplash. Pretty darn even I'd say.

Your speccing a wizard for illusion and evocation for PK;a spell that is almost impossible to fit on palemasters, has 2 saves and some mobs are immune, and prismatic spray, a spell that doesn't even instakill all the time is a joke. quote "I'm going pure *what-is-100%-going-to-affect-the-mob*" endquote. Get real. Should we also count improved sunder?

Having slay living and destruction is essentially like having 2 fingers of death in many cases. Implosion is now better than wail (which I think is wrong). Circle of death is all wizards really get over divines, and the ability to ignore wizard PL, fvs PL, sorc PL and still get a strong spell pen/DC. FVS need more PLs to make them on par, but when both are max PLed/geared they are pretty close. Before the wail nerf I would put wizards moderately ahead. Now, I'd say divines are at least as good if not better.

I see talk, but I still don't see cold hard math. Where is the detailed breakdown as I have done?