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View Full Version : Failing crit confirmations on a roll of 1 that should not fail



Shade
06-13-2012, 04:35 AM
See screenshot. (http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/1236/critconfirm.jpg)

Scraap
06-13-2012, 12:46 PM
That is more than a little disturbing.

Cyr
06-13-2012, 12:52 PM
Huh, that is a new one.

Have any new effects (u14 related) that modify your confirm crit rolls?

Shade
06-14-2012, 01:32 AM
Huh, that is a new one.

Have any new effects (u14 related) that modify your confirm crit rolls?

Nope. epic mari chain and grt bold trinket should be the only relevant effects (seeker 12 total).

Jay203
06-14-2012, 01:54 AM
wait... cow? O_o;;;

Wraith_Sarevok
06-15-2012, 02:02 AM
He's right.

If you're hitting the cow on a +39 and then missing on a +60, the confirmation rolls are bugged. Auto-fail shouldn't be applying to them.

Could this just be a text error though? You might actually be rolling the critical damage and just not seeing it because the cow is invincible.

MRMechMan
06-15-2012, 02:19 AM
Maybe fort.

I know that if you attack a creature with fort you can have a combat log that says "you roll to confirm critical hit 1+70: failure!" or something like that.

knockcocker
06-15-2012, 03:01 AM
Maybe fort.

I know that if you attack a creature with fort you can have a combat log that says "you roll to confirm critical hit 1+70: failure!" or something like that.

My money is on this.

dredre9987
06-15-2012, 03:02 AM
13+55>1+60

Kalevor
06-15-2012, 03:05 AM
13+55>1+60

but 1+60> 4+39

Skavenaps
06-15-2012, 03:11 AM
1 should be always automiss. and a 20, succes.

dredre9987
06-15-2012, 03:15 AM
but 1+60> 4+39

Ah but perhaps crit confirmation has changed. Unless a 1 is autofail/

sudzz
06-15-2012, 03:20 AM
The cows are in a non combat area and while you can hit them it does seem to me that you cannot damage or kill them as they are non hostile npcs standing in a non combat zone and therefor immune to damage but yes roll a 1 is usually a non hit/confirmation of crit.

Kalevor
06-15-2012, 03:20 AM
Ah but perhaps crit confirmation has changed. Unless a 1 is autofail/

this is nonsense, a 1 autofail on crit confirmation will be a serious nerf on melee damage... must be a bug... i hope...

ferrite
06-15-2012, 03:29 AM
1 should be always automiss. and a 20, succes.

True but does this rule apply to critical confirmation rolls, since you've already hit. I just looked up the rule, "If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit." So a 1 on the confirm roll should not cause a miss, the second die roll is a special roll that does not follow the normal rules of 1 and 20.

Probably just a simple coding mistake.

sudzz
06-15-2012, 03:31 AM
this is nonsense, a 1 autofail on crit confirmation will be a serious nerf on melee damage... must be a bug... i hope...

How can it be wrong, a 1 is almost always viewed as a failure, elsewise why even bother rolling to confirm the crit in the first place? Also a 1 in 20 chance of failing to confirm the extra damage of a crit is not going to nerf anything, unless of course your d20 is covered in 1s rather than the usual 1-20 that everyone elses has, remember this is a roll to confirm whether or not the additional damage of a crit has succeded or not, there has to be a chance for it not to suceed otherwise every crit hits and does the extra damage no matter what.

Oh and if you look at the screen shot he hits on every attempt of hitting, the crit does not confirm sure, but none of the hits records any damage whatsoever, hence refer to my previous post about a non combat npc not taking damage in a non combat area, surprised it can be hit at all really.

Kalevor
06-15-2012, 03:46 AM
How can it be wrong, a 1 is almost always viewed as a failure, elsewise why even bother rolling to confirm the crit in the first place? Also a 1 in 20 chance of failing to confirm the extra damage of a crit is not going to nerf anything, unless of course your d20 is covered in 1s rather than the usual 1-20 that everyone elses has, remember this is a roll to confirm whether or not the additional damage of a crit has succeded or not, there has to be a chance for it not to suceed otherwise every crit hits and does the extra damage no matter what.

wrong, chance of failling is allowed only on natural d20 (in PnP too, played the game several years)
You need to confirm critical because a critical hit must to rely on the skills of the attacker and not only in the luck u can have rolling a crit number on a d20... otherwise is only a lucky hit.

And is a nerf because if you have a toon that have +60 to hit and u expect every chance to crit hit to became a crit hit is a serious lost in dps.

And yes i think my dice has more 1s than others has... ¬¬!

brzytki
06-15-2012, 05:08 AM
My money is on this.
This is not the case. If it was fortification, it would read "Critical hit resisted" at the end of the line instead of "Failure".

How can it be wrong, a 1 is almost always viewed as a failure, elsewise why even bother rolling to confirm the crit in the first place? Also a 1 in 20 chance of failing to confirm the extra damage of a crit is not going to nerf anything, unless of course your d20 is covered in 1s rather than the usual 1-20 that everyone elses has, remember this is a roll to confirm whether or not the additional damage of a crit has succeded or not, there has to be a chance for it not to suceed otherwise every crit hits and does the extra damage no matter what.

For a few years, if not for the whole time, in DDO rolling a 1 on confirming a crit wasn't an auto-fail. It's kind of similar to not failing skills on a 1. For skills, auto-fail on a 1 would be stupid since you train them to be better, for crit confirmation it would be stupid since you already have auto-fail on a 1 when rolling for hit.

About the bolded part, have you been playing low lvl stuff on a low to-hit character lately? or ever? If your to-hit is not high enough to overcome a mob's AC it won't confirm crit either. Hypothetically speaking, if a mob's AC is 40 and your to-hit is 15 you won't ever get any crit because you will fail crit confirmation every time (20+15 < 40) - that's your chance of not succeeding.


Oh and if you look at the screen shot he hits on every attempt of hitting, the crit does not confirm sure, but none of the hits records any damage whatsoever, hence refer to my previous post about a non combat npc not taking damage in a non combat area, surprised it can be hit at all really.

It doesn't matter if he does damage or not, unless it is specifically coded for this one situation which is highly doubtful.

Sarisa
06-15-2012, 06:53 AM
The SRD wording actually says you make an actual attack roll against the targets AC to see if you hit to confirm the crit. It uses the standard attack roll rules, including the 1-is-always-a-miss.

This is a nerf, yes, but it's also closer to the few remains of PnP we have.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits


Critical Hits

When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Increased Threat Range

Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier

Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit.
Spells and Critical Hits

A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll


Attack Roll

An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.
Automatic Misses and Hits

A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit.

JOTMON
06-15-2012, 07:13 AM
Looks to me like that cow has Raw Hide enhancement and probably Epic Shade Ward.

Shade
07-19-2012, 09:46 AM
This bug is now live.

No amount of argueing will make it not a bug. Its a bug.

Not in release notes? bug.

Fix please.

Shade
12-08-2012, 01:18 AM
U16.1: Still not fixed.

arcattaii
12-08-2012, 04:00 AM
Can't see any bug point here.. according to PHB, confirm critical roll is a special attack roll, it will also auto fail on 1.

Munkenmo
12-08-2012, 04:18 AM
Sarissa makes a pretty good point.

With citations too.

Dandonk
12-08-2012, 04:21 AM
Sarissa makes a pretty good point.

With citations too.

True enough.

But DDO does not conform to every, or nearly every, D&D3.5 mechanic, and it's still a change to how it's worked in DDO as long as I can remember, and as such it really ought to be in the release notes. As long as it hasn't been put in any release notes, I don't blame Shade for considering it a bug.

Shade
12-08-2012, 01:38 PM
Can't see any bug point here.. according to PHB, confirm critical roll is a special attack roll, it will also auto fail on 1.

In the PHB we also use a d20, and not a D100 to do attack rolls. Is that a bug then? Or the fact we don't ever "miss", we do grazing hits" could go on forever, the fact is that DDO uses a VERY different system that secretly rolls a d100, then obscurs the data to look like a d20 to us, so its nothing alike aside from show nowadays.

Not to mention a billion other changes.

If the change was not in the release notes, it's a bug. It's that simple.

Referencing PnP especially in regards to a system which was COMPLETELY changed to not even begin to match the one in pnp in the patch this bug appeared, makes absolutely zero sense.

Cite all you want, your logic is utterly flawed. DDO != DnD.

9Crows
12-08-2012, 01:49 PM
i would say its a bug or an undocumented change...since i know i used to crit on a 1 on a crit confirm roll ..and now i dont ...so if something was working one way and now its not...it is either an unintended change(bug) or an intended 1...

nivarch
12-08-2012, 02:01 PM
Snip

Get off your high horse, because your logic is also flawed.

A bug is an unintended behavior of a program. If the devs purposedly changed the behavior then it is not a bug but a change, every unanounced change is not a bug.
I'm pretty sure the game engine goes thru many announced changes, most of them have no impact for us, some do.

On the other hand, such changes should announced since it does have a direct impact on us.

Oh also the part on D100 roll and such is well... useless. It's not about obscuring something, it's just that a RNG produces a certain kind of output, for example a value between 0 and max(int), you then use a simple mathematic operation to convert the generated number to a value in the range you want.
But maybe you think some PnP games try to obfuscate things when they ask you to throw 2d10 to generate 1d100, since it's not directly the correct die.

TL;DR:
Maybe a bug, but the fact that it hasn't been announced doesn't mean it is a bug.

arcattaii
12-08-2012, 09:40 PM
In the PHB we also use a d20, and not a D100 to do attack rolls. Is that a bug then? Or the fact we don't ever "miss", we do grazing hits" could go on forever, the fact is that DDO uses a VERY different system that secretly rolls a d100, then obscurs the data to look like a d20 to us, so its nothing alike aside from show nowadays.

Not to mention a billion other changes.

If the change was not in the release notes, it's a bug. It's that simple.

Referencing PnP especially in regards to a system which was COMPLETELY changed to not even begin to match the one in pnp in the patch this bug appeared, makes absolutely zero sense.

Cite all you want, your logic is utterly flawed. DDO != DnD.

DDO rule is based on PHB, devs will list what they changed/added in the release note, such as "grazing hits" in Release Notes DDO Unlimited Official, but they don't need to list all the unchanged things.

I know they have changed the entire attack/defense system, but it's internally. Devs said they will visually simulate a d20 roll for players, that means though the internal calculation is changed, "roll 1 = auto fail" is not. This is logical and understandable.

Dandonk
12-09-2012, 12:43 AM
DDO rule is based on PHB, devs will list what they changed/added in the release note, such as "grazing hits" in Release Notes DDO Unlimited Official, but they don't need to list all the unchanged things.

I know they have changed the entire attack/defense system, but it's internally. Devs said they will visually simulate a d20 roll for players, that means though the internal calculation is changed, "roll 1 = auto fail" is not. This is logical and understandable.

But it did NOT work this way for many years. If this was not intended, it should have been in the Known Issues. And in any case, changing a longstanding mechanic should at least warrant a note in the Release Notes.

Just like when they fixed the evasion in heavy armor issue.

samthedagger
12-09-2012, 12:48 AM
Why necro this?

Shade
03-11-2013, 11:45 AM
Still bugged in U17.

Gkar
03-11-2013, 11:52 AM
The SRD wording actually says you make an actual attack roll against the targets AC to see if you hit to confirm the crit. It uses the standard attack roll rules, including the 1-is-always-a-miss.

This is a nerf, yes, but it's also closer to the few remains of PnP we have.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll

By your logic if the roll a 20 on the crit confirmation it is a critical crit confirmation and you need to roll a confirmation on the critical crit confirmation so you can get a crit-crit?

Dumb eh?

When reading the SRD you are supposed to apply common sense and consider that the specific situation overrules the general rule. Neither the 1 or the 20 apply on a crit confirmation.

But I guess I can't expect that the Devs understand D&D rules these days so why should the players, right?

HungarianRhapsody
03-11-2013, 11:55 AM
This bug is now live.

No amount of argueing will make it not a bug. Its a bug.

Not in release notes? bug.

Fix please.

It's a change. It used to be a bug. Now it works correctly according to D&D's rules.

No amount of argueing will make it a bug. It's just a change that you don't like.

Given that it still works this way, looks like it's not going to be reverted, either.

fco-karatekid
03-11-2013, 12:09 PM
This necro'ed thread is 'bull'.

Clearly, that bug is a 'ruminant' leftover from the MoTU launch.

I recommend we 'moooooove' on.

Udder nonsense.

:D

danzig138
04-15-2013, 10:47 AM
When reading the SRD you are supposed to apply common sense and consider that the specific situation overrules the general rule. Neither the 1 or the 20 apply on a crit confirmation. You want to go making absolute statements like that, you should probably back it up with a citation, otherwise you're butt talking like the rest of us. IMO, as written, a critical confirmation absolutely follows the normal attack roll rules because it is an attack roll. In fact, it's the exact same attack roll.

That said, as far as I know, that has never been the case in DDO.

And your first point, as a snarky response, fails a bit since there was, at least at one point, in 3E, a variant that worked on the idea of a natural 20 on the confirmation roll.


so why should the players, right?As I say, unless you can back it up, that includes you.

Dandonk
04-15-2013, 11:15 AM
This necro'ed thread is 'bull'.

Clearly, that bug is a 'ruminant' leftover from the MoTU launch.

I recommend we 'moooooove' on.

Udder nonsense.

:D

Well, MOTU combat change itself seems borked, so I'm not surprised this is, too. Last night I hit a monster with a grazing hit on a 2, and next attack (same mob, and same attack bonus) missed. We are not supposed to miss on a 2, I was given to understand.