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View Full Version : FvS and Clerics should be OP



Xezrak
06-11-2012, 09:10 PM
Yes, FvS and Clerics should be OP, why? Already in PuGs the last spot to fill in a group is the healer, yes if you are lucky enough to be in a well organised guild maybe you have healers for your raids and elite runs but when it comes to the PuG scene it is quite a different story.

I mean Devs just log into a server and you will see that there will be a few PuGs with the last spot waiting to be filled by a healer.

Having played healers to level 20 with most of my runs with PuG groups I can tell you it can get quite stressful and you have to be on top of your game throughout the quest especially during raids or you could potentially lead the group to wiping (yes I know with a good group this may not always be case but in a PuG raid/run the healer has significantly more responsibility).

You also spend alot more in game plat on scrolls/mana pots then most other classes.

Now because of these reasons my main is no longer a FvS (although I do have an alt level 20 fvs). That being said I really don't mind if FvS/Cleric are more OP than other classes, make blade barrier/implosion a little more powerful, give them more sp, I don't mind how just make players want to play divines. I really don't think the overwhelming majority of players want to play a divine to be heal bot. If you do play a healer to be a pure healbot and have full epiced out gear please link your toon because I highly doubt that many such players will exist.

Long story short - encourage more divines, even if it means they will be slightly OP.

I think if we want to make the game harder, make it harder in a way that doesn't make it disproportionately harder on the healers.

budalic
06-12-2012, 01:12 AM
Long story short - encourage more divines, even if it means they will be slightly OP.

The issue is that, currently, on live, easiest way to do pretty much every endgame raid except house C ones is just to pile up 10-12 divines (mostly favored souls) and few of the other classes for specialist task they can do easier than divines (say, blowing up crystal in shroud part 2; or dealing elemental damage to cojoined abishai devastator).

As far as being op goes, I'd rather have every class self-healing and do away with healer role, but I understand that's not common opinion. Still, most quest parties lately I've seen usually have a sorc or two, a wiz or two, a fvs or two, perhaps a cleric or artificer, and 0-2 token melees. Granted, I usually have few friends with me that also play casters, so it might be skewed.

Emili
06-12-2012, 02:32 AM
The reason you do not see tons of divines apply for pug spots on live often is because they are generally more powerful than most other classes already, Very few need a group of melee to do anything and come raiding there are far more underpowered melee than underpowered divines out there... so they tend to stay within known circles. When they see a pug spot up they question themselves before joining.

i.e. should they take the chance and costs or go raid with people they know will get it done? All it takes is one or two bad experiences and they're put in the hole flipping the bill due to someone else.

To sum it up Clerics and FvS are two of the most self-suffcient and adequate classes in the game already, and is the lacking average of other classes generally at thier level keeps them from taking risks - so they do things themselves.

My suggestion to the author of the OP is to roll up a divine - Cleric, FvS or Druid when they come out, then you'd understand why few of us pug them. Personally in any quest I just go solo or take the first people to respond ... You never really need a healer dedicated postion outside of some raid.

Ertay
06-12-2012, 03:14 AM
Raids are another story, but if I play my divine and see a group waiting to fill with a "need healer" tag I avoid it like the plague. Healing those guys is usually not worth the sp it takes, I'll gladly throw a few heals around in a byoh group but being relegated to healbot duty is neither fun nor effective.

hifdfklgdfdkg
06-12-2012, 03:33 AM
The reason you do not see tons of divines apply for pug spots on live often is because they are generally more powerful than most other classes already, Very few need a group of melee to do anything and come raiding there are far more underpowered melee than underpowered divines out there... so they tend to stay within known circles. When they see a pug spot up they question themselves before joining.

i.e. should they take the chance and costs or go raid with people they know will get it done? All it takes is one or two bad experiences and they're put in the hole flipping the bill due to someone else.

To sum it up Clerics and FvS are two of the most self-suffcient and adequate classes in the game already, and is the lacking average of other classes generally at thier level keeps them from taking risks - so they do things themselves.

My suggestion to the author of the OP is to roll up a divine - Cleric, FvS or Druid when they come out, then you'd understand why few of us pug them. Personally in any quest I just go solo or take the first people to respond ... You never really need a healer dedicated postion outside of some raid.



haha, i've rolled a divine and man are they "easy to solo"(but with gear)... yes you always get those rare groups that die a lot, just don't raise em take em to the shrine....
but there is a bit of a bias to your post of "thinking things through" for me i just join pugs for the fun. (alas this is an mmo not a solo rpg where its only yourself carrying the weight...) yeah there is always those few groups to get a healer, but hireling are there for the support and when your doin a raid just ask the "who channel" go through the fvs and cleric range and ask if you would like to come.... your sure to get at least one yes out of those many you ask

Emili
06-12-2012, 03:51 AM
haha, i've rolled a divine and man are they "easy to solo"(but with gear)... yes you always get those rare groups that die a lot, just don't raise em take em to the shrine....
but there is a bit of a bias to your post of "thinking things through" for me i just join pugs for the fun. (alas this is an mmo not a solo rpg where its only yourself carrying the weight...) yeah there is always those few groups to get a healer, but hireling are there for the support and when your doin a raid just ask the "who channel" go through the fvs and cleric range and ask if you would like to come.... your sure to get at least one yes out of those many you ask

May call it bias or jaded or maybe a tad bit of drama avoidance. All the same I do not mind pugging so much, but every once in a while you run into those fellas who think just because they can swing a weapon, they should, and just because you can heal them thru hell an' back, you should... yet show them a little better efficient way and because it does not involve them sucking up blue bars as much they tend go off the deep end. ;)

budalic
06-12-2012, 04:07 AM
Long story short - encourage more divines, even if it means they will be slightly OP.

I think if we want to make the game harder, make it harder in a way that doesn't make it disproportionately harder on the healers.

Oh, yes, also encouraging people to roll divines because they are OP doesn't mean they will heal.

I mean, I have FvS because I like the class. I won't heal anything but raids with her, and I try to avoid raid healing too, if I can...

alexp80
06-12-2012, 04:08 AM
Healing on pugs usually means:

Run like a chicken with the head cut off to follow other chickens with their heads cut off but curiosly screaming HEALZZZ!

Healing is a pleasure with competent melees, but they are so hard to find.

Udalric
06-12-2012, 06:15 AM
Dirty , stressful work should be more rewarded that's obvious. That's how economics work - if nobody/few wants to do particular job (healing) you are going to pay more wages or give other benefits to encourage them.

Personally i've never met 20lvl epic geared healbot , existing healbot toons are builded as guild raid undergeared healing bots , they are not main toons, nobody wants to play healing slave that's ruining fun for sure.

Aelonwy
06-12-2012, 09:07 AM
My main is my cleric, Aelonwy, on Thelanis. She isn't a healbot, she's a caster cleric however i do mainly heal with her and cast offensively for situational purposes. I do not seek for my cleric to be OP (never played a FVS) but I would appreciate the devs changing the healing of groups and raids to be less resource intensive. Perhaps this could be done in the enhancment pass by making healing enhancements cheaper or better, or by making healing spells slightly less expensive sp pt wise, or reducing the animation length of heals somewhat.

Essentially, if they want to encourage healing they should stop making things so expensive for us. Its great when someone is kind enough to reimburse their healer but you can bet it doesn't happen that often in PUGS. Typically, we get the other end of the stick... that is rude ppl complaining that we aren't behaving like their personal hireling. Don't get me wrong, I understand that the devs have zero control over ppl's behavior, but if they made healing as effortless and inexpensive as possible (while still maintaining game balance) it would be less of a hassle and aggravation to heal groups that are not made up of the most considerate ppl. (By considerate, I mean not running off from group, not running ahead to pad kill count, yelling and/or swearing at me because I stayed with group instead of following them around.) There are only so many ppl I can put on my list as not fun to group with.

I would also appreciate getting some enhancements to my offensive spells that currently don't exist such as fire and untyped dmg but I'm not holding my breath since it feels like they don't want clerics to do anything but heal. I'd like my domains too but thats probably never going to happen because cleric is a F2P class.

Alcedes
06-12-2012, 09:14 AM
i leveled both a cleric and a fvs. and i must admit, the early levels i was primarily a healbot due to being a bit of a newb when i rolled them. but both of them saw the same results. struggle, struggle, struggle...get BB, pwn, own, ***pwn, cap.


they both hit 20 wearing some starter gear. neither of them ever struggled after BB. I am not a great divine player. they dont need to be buffed up to be OP. they are already "OP". divines are a great class that dont really need anything else more than a tweak here and there.

Kawai
06-12-2012, 09:18 AM
My main is my cleric, Aelonwy, on Thelanis. She isn't a healbot, she's a caster cleric however i do mainly heal with her and cast offensively for situational purposes. I do not seek for my cleric to be OP (never played a FVS) but I would appreciate the devs changing the healing of groups and raids to be less resource intensive. Perhaps this could be done in the enhancment pass by making healing enhancements cheaper or better, or by making healing spells slightly less expensive sp pt wise, or reducing the animation length of heals somewhat.

Essentially, if they want to encourage healing they should stop making things so expensive for us. Its great when someone is kind enough to reimburse their healer but you can bet it doesn't happen that often in PUGS. Typically, we get the other end of the stick... that is rude ppl complaining that we aren't behaving like their personal hireling. Don't get me wrong, I understand that the devs have zero control over ppl's behavior, but if they made healing as effortless and inexpensive as possible (while still maintaining game balance) it would be less of a hassle and aggravation to heal groups that are not made up of the most considerate ppl. (By considerate, I mean not running off from group, not running ahead to pad kill count, yelling and/or swearing at me because I stayed with group instead of following them around.) There are only so many ppl I can put on my list as not fun to group with.

I would also appreciate getting some enhancements to my offensive spells that currently don't exist such as fire and untyped dmg but I'm not holding my breath since it feels like they don't want clerics to do anything but heal. I'd like my domains too but thats probably never going to happen because cleric is a F2P class.

I'll /sign this portion... the Clerics need some luv, way overdue... ;)

mute_mayhem
06-12-2012, 09:21 AM
A well-played divine is already OP, there's no need to make them even more so...although my FvS wouldn't mind getting even more powerful.

I join pug raids for fun, because it's not a guaranteed completion/snoozefest like the guild/channel runs I normally heal. Having a 99% chance of success gets boring after completing a raid for the 300th time.

DeafeningWhisper
06-12-2012, 09:21 AM
The main reason you see few healers puging has nothing to do with the game or it's mechanics and a lot more to do with the people playing the game.

Too many want to tell us how to play, to stcik to healing, to basicaly be their slightly smarter, with more hp/sp hireling...

So unless they have a patch to fix stupidity and jerks, yeah more OP Cleric/FvS is not gonna help.

taurean430
06-12-2012, 09:25 AM
I'd say they need two things viewing the new xpac stuff:

Earthquake
Storm of Vengence

Oh, and Sunbeam (wishful thinking). But dead serious on the first others.

Some people actually build raid healing capable casting divines. It only makes sense to give them the spells their counterparts in PnP have out of the box as they say.

Kawai
06-12-2012, 09:26 AM
So unless they have a patch to fix stupidity and jerks, yeah more OP Cleric/FvS is not gonna help.


I'm afraid that would actually apply too ALL classes... ~just say'n :rolleyes:

Alcedes
06-12-2012, 09:26 AM
My main is my cleric, Aelonwy, on Thelanis. She isn't a healbot, she's a caster cleric however i do mainly heal with her and cast offensively for situational purposes. I do not seek for my cleric to be OP (never played a FVS) but I would appreciate the devs changing the healing of groups and raids to be less resource intensive. Perhaps this could be done in the enhancment pass by making healing enhancements cheaper or better, or by making healing spells slightly less expensive sp pt wise, or reducing the animation length of heals somewhat.

Essentially, if they want to encourage healing they should stop making things so expensive for us. Its great when someone is kind enough to reimburse their healer but you can bet it doesn't happen that often in PUGS. Typically, we get the other end of the stick... that is rude ppl complaining that we aren't behaving like their personal hireling. Don't get me wrong, I understand that the devs have zero control over ppl's behavior, but if they made healing as effortless and inexpensive as possible (while still maintaining game balance) it would be less of a hassle and aggravation to heal groups that are not made up of the most considerate ppl. (By considerate, I mean not running off from group, not running ahead to pad kill count, yelling and/or swearing at me because I stayed with group instead of following them around.) There are only so many ppl I can put on my list as not fun to group with.

I would also appreciate getting some enhancements to my offensive spells that currently don't exist such as fire and untyped dmg but I'm not holding my breath since it feels like they don't want clerics to do anything but heal. I'd like my domains too but thats probably never going to happen because cleric is a F2P class.

"I would appreciate the devs changing the healing of groups and raids to be less resource intensive."
This would make things SO much better. Currently it is very resource intensive to heal a group.

"if they made healing as effortless and inexpensive as possible (while still maintaining game balance) it would be less of a hassle and aggravation to heal groups that are not made up of the most considerate ppl."
This would actually have a very positive impact on the pug experience. Healers would be more likely to hit that LFM

"I mean not running off from group, not running ahead to pad kill count, yelling and/or swearing at me because I stayed with group instead of following them around.)"
I am very clear when I heal. I tell them that my heals will be centered on <insert name here> and if they want to be healed, i suggest they stay close. and i do not mind letting people die in order to get my point across.

voodoogroves
06-12-2012, 09:30 AM
Nah, what they need to do is

- auto-enlarge any and all healing spells (like they did for rays)
- have an option provide a feedback that is both visual and audio for THE ENTIRE PARTY that says "Joe tried to heal Sam, but Sam is blocked / out of range / stupid"

I realize this second may make it difficult for some people to lie and say "oh I tried to heal you, you were blocked" when really they weren't paying attention.

Own your mistakes healers. I'll be the first to say that you died because I was watching something else, but then again I make no claims to be a great healer ;-)

herzkos
06-12-2012, 09:35 AM
the reason (and this may have already been stated) that pug "healers" are hard to find
is that there are very few players out there that want to be the "sidekick" to all of the
egomaniac heroes. Not all pugs are that way but a good number of them are.

newsflash: babysitting the superstars red bar isn't a whole lot of fun for most players.
especially when said superstar is rude and obnoxious and takes no care for his own
health because that's what his hireling -err i mean healer- is for.

Aelonwy
06-12-2012, 10:01 AM
I am very clear when I heal. I tell them that my heals will be centered on <insert name here> and if they want to be healed, i suggest they stay close. and i do not mind letting people die in order to get my point across.

Oh I don't mind letting ppl die that are causing the group more strife (and me more resources) than necessary, but for some reason these type of ppl seldom seem to learn any lesson from their behavior. I've had them threaten to blacklist me (and I'm thankful), I've seen them recall out when I left them as a soul stone for longer than 60secs and then if the party leader wasn't quick enough they re-enter, I've squelched a handful for the language they use when ppl don't do everything their way, I've been in groups where I was griped at for not chugging sp pt potions, or not carrying enough of them or not using my entire stock of heal scrolls so group could complete(cause you know after you've used a certain amt and things aren't getting any better that you're just wasting them)... and I've had a handful of party members/leaders tell me they are so sorry that so&so was such a PITA and to ignore/squelch ppl like that, because yes there are good and bad in PUGS. The problems arise from clerics/healers having these bad experiences too frequently.

Alcedes
06-12-2012, 10:05 AM
the healing these days is especially fun with all the level 16 newbs running around in complete trash for gear and no clue what they are doing.

herzkos
06-12-2012, 10:16 AM
the healing these days is especially fun with all the level 16 newbs running around in complete trash for gear and no clue what they are doing.

nah, it's been pretty standard for the 5 years i've been playing.
"healer" joins pug- pug goes pearshaped. Harder quests that are run without a "healer" are often smoother
than the easy quest run with a "healer" due to player stupidity.

obviously not all pugs are this way, but enough of them are that people stop running their divines in pugs.

DeafeningWhisper
06-12-2012, 10:23 AM
the healing these days is especially fun with all the level 16 newbs running around in complete trash for gear and no clue what they are doing.

Healed a shroud yesterday, when people started talking about which GS armor to get I knew I was in for some fun, it was hard but really interesting and rather fun.

Oddly enough the only one who didn't listened and acted on his own was a Tr, newbs listened and adapted. Tr got a few melees killed with his "stay in ,we can do this!" call, it was a 3 rounder by the way.

Alcedes
06-12-2012, 10:25 AM
Healed a shroud yesterday, when people started talking about which GS armor to get I knew I was in for some fun, it was hard but really interesting and rather fun.

Oddly enough the only one who didn't listened and acted on his own was a Tr, newbs listened and adapted. Tr got a few melees killed with his "stay in ,we can do this!" call, it was a 3 rounder by the way.

i play with a lot of experienced players and most of them cant "stay in" thru the blades. i am able to with my tank, even on elite, but i cannot imagine a bunch of under geared fresh 16's who are still learning their toons trying that. i almost wish i could have seen it. lol

Sarisa
06-12-2012, 10:28 AM
I played Cleric since I started this game, because I actually like playing a support role. I also like classes that while good support, also have a good ability to fight and take care of themselves. That was the power of PnP Clerics, and for most of the game, the power of Clerics in DDO.

The problems are mostly society related. A lot of people, like already said, have a "hero" mentality, or an extreme sense of entitlement. I do enjoy supporting. I don't enjoy being told and expected to have to do nothing but devote my entire time to keeping this "hero" alive, when he (and it's almost ALWAYS a he...) does nothing to mitigate damage or play smartly.

That is the main annoyance of PUG healing, since for every few good or average group that lets you play your ENTIRE class (damage, CC, buffing, and healing), there is one that will try your patience and "goodwill to fellow man" to the limit.

I also distinctly remember the difficulty in being able to afford to play my Cleric when I started. Granted, that was back in update 4 and 5, when there was far less money potential. A run of something like locked-shrine Tear would end up costing me significantly more than I earned from the chests in the average or bad group.

Regarding Cleric vs. FvS, it's mostly a topic for another thread, but the current advantages of Clerics to FvS's are very small. (Currently) Clerics have an AoE heal that works under anti-magic, FvS's only have a single target heal that works under anti-magic, and only with the Sovereign Host line.

Clerics have 1 more potential WIS, but that only matters in some cases, and even with the WIS advantage, FvS's have an effective +2 DC for anything in their Aura of Menace, so FvS's still would have the DC advantage. This WIS advantage can lead to +1 Will save, which is something that doesn't usually matter either due to buffs or due to the extreme DC's of high level will save effects (eParty traps, Otto's Sphere from epic casters, forgetting Prot-Evil when facing eChrono Abishai).

Clerics can splash without losing as much, due to the strong but situational capstone being less desirable than a FvS's capstone and DR.

phalaeo
06-12-2012, 12:03 PM
and when your doin a raid just ask the "who channel" go through the fvs and cleric range and ask if you would like to come.... your sure to get at least one yes out of those many you ask

Do you have any idea how annoying this is to people who primarily play divines?

I can read the ****ing LFMs too, you know. It's not like the LFM panel shows up for everyone BUT divines.... :rolleyes:

You say you're sure to get one out of the many you ask... you're also probably going to get squelched by a few as well.
EDIT: And don't tell me to go anon... it's obnoxious to try and remember every time you log onto your healers, even just to grab something from the bank. Early on, I made a Cleric bank char... don't ask me why I did, but she got deleted really quickly and replaced by a gross melee ranger mix with Favoured Enemy: Ooze.

Ungood
06-12-2012, 04:27 PM
As far as being op goes, I'd rather have every class self-healing and do away with healer role.

This!

Really, Turbine, it's time to do away with the need for "Healers" the players that play divines have made it clear they don't want to be "healz bots" so, lets make this happen.

If there were less people looking for "healz" there would be more people playing divines. You want to fill a group with divines, tell 'em you don't need them to heal, they flock to BYOH LFM's all the time.

So the real answer to get people to play Divines to remove this "Healer" nonsense from the game, and that can only happen if all the classes are given easy to acquire self healing.

Self-sufficiency should not be something people put on their goal for "Life 3" it should be something bult into all the classes.

aerosole
06-12-2012, 10:59 PM
This!

Really, Turbine, it's time to do away with the need for "Healers" the players that play divines have made it clear they don't want to be "healz bots" so, lets make this happen.

If there were less people looking for "healz" there would be more people playing divines. You want to fill a group with divines, tell 'em you don't need them to heal, they flock to BYOH LFM's all the time.

So the real answer to get people to play Divines to remove this "Healer" nonsense from the game, and that can only happen if all the classes are given easy to acquire self healing.

Self-sufficiency should not be something people put on their goal for "Life 3" it should be something bult into all the classes.


There is already quite a number of ways to be self-sufficient, but the problem is, its not easy for players to understand or access them.

For example, a ranger or pally can cast cure spells. But this is pretty useless without properly speccing the char.

To make it work, the ranger/pally needs to invest a bit of AP into devotion enhancements, get some healing amp gear and a devotion item. If he has all of these, a cure serious wounds can heal for 100+ hp for 12 sp. With a metamagic feat like empower healing or maximize, a CSW will heal over 300+ hp for very high healing amp builds.


So why don't we see more pally/rangers being more self-sufficient in healing themselves?

1) Healing amp items is not easily accessible to the average player. Most are high level raid or epic items, obviously out of the reach of the average player. Second, because healing amp is not visible on the char sheet, the average or casual player simply don't understand it or perhaps isn't even aware of it. HA needs to be more visible, preferably on the char sheet.

2) Devotion items that help with self-healing is almost always found on weapons on random loot. This makes it useless for melees to try to slot it without gimping their dps. My pally has to craft devotion on a trinket, again, something that won't be obvious to a casual player. There needs to be more devotion items on non-weapon slots for the self-sufficient melee build.

3) Healing effects stacks multiplicatively. Without 1 and 2, it is not worth trying to buy levels of devotion enhancements. So most rangers/pallies simply don't bother.

4) Pallies and rangers are feat starved, the former especially so. Burning a feat to improve self-sufficiency takes a back-seat when your dps is already behind the fighter/barb. So its easier to just focus entirely on dps.

MotU looks like it will make a couple of improvements here. Hopefully, this will slightly un-gimp rangers and pallies by allowing them to be more self-sufficient. :)

Yalann
06-13-2012, 12:46 AM
That being said I really don't mind if FvS/Cleric are more OP than other classes, make blade barrier/implosion a little more powerful, give them more sp, I don't mind how just make players want to play divines. I really don't think the overwhelming majority of players want to play a divine to be heal bot. If you do play a healer to be a pure healbot and have full epiced out gear please link your toon because I highly doubt that many such players will exist.

Long story short - encourage more divines, even if it means they will be slightly OP.

I think if we want to make the game harder, make it harder in a way that doesn't make it disproportionately harder on the healers.

Except this creates an even worse problem: people create divines and would rather solo not heal because any other class is less useful and not worth scaling. It is already a problem now. This just makes it worse. Very bad idea.

Additionally, my fvs is fairly well geared and designed to be more of a nuker but often in raids I will play conservatively and be a healbot. I think the reason you don't see healbots with uber gear is that there is little reason you can't be a melee divine or offensive caster divine AND heal well. What do you have better as healbot? 2 mental toughness feats and more cha on a fvs? Not worth it.


As far as being op goes, I'd rather have every class self-healing and do away with healer role, but I understand that's not common opinion.

The game consists of classes and roles. It's bad enough the d20 system is gone. Giving every character every ability just creates a bland game. I like my characters to have advantages and disadvantages that are different so the playstyle isn't repetitive. And as you said, I am pretty sure most people would rather not have all self healers. It is a social game not a single player game.


the reason (and this may have already been stated) that pug "healers" are hard to find
is that there are very few players out there that want to be the "sidekick" to all of the
egomaniac heroes.
...

Very true. When you heal a guild run, you know they will heal your full DPS no defense melee later. Not the case in a random pug. And when you do heal a pug, they often make no effort to make your life easier. And I am not talking about self healing and having evasion/AC. I am talking about simple things like not running a barb through a trap and into 10 more mobs while your group is already fighting.

FranOhmsford
06-13-2012, 01:01 AM
My main is my cleric, Aelonwy, on Thelanis. She isn't a healbot, she's a caster cleric however i do mainly heal with her and cast offensively for situational purposes. I do not seek for my cleric to be OP (never played a FVS) but I would appreciate the devs changing the healing of groups and raids to be less resource intensive. Perhaps this could be done in the enhancment pass by making healing enhancements cheaper or better, or by making healing spells slightly less expensive sp pt wise, or reducing the animation length of heals somewhat.

Essentially, if they want to encourage healing they should stop making things so expensive for us. Its great when someone is kind enough to reimburse their healer but you can bet it doesn't happen that often in PUGS. Typically, we get the other end of the stick... that is rude ppl complaining that we aren't behaving like their personal hireling. Don't get me wrong, I understand that the devs have zero control over ppl's behavior, but if they made healing as effortless and inexpensive as possible (while still maintaining game balance) it would be less of a hassle and aggravation to heal groups that are not made up of the most considerate ppl. (By considerate, I mean not running off from group, not running ahead to pad kill count, yelling and/or swearing at me because I stayed with group instead of following them around.) There are only so many ppl I can put on my list as not fun to group with.

I would also appreciate getting some enhancements to my offensive spells that currently don't exist such as fire and untyped dmg but I'm not holding my breath since it feels like they don't want clerics to do anything but heal. I'd like my domains too but thats probably never going to happen because cleric is a F2P class.

/Signed

Quick suggestion for Domains.

Take two Forgotten Realms Gods - I'm not up to date with which ones are still available. {Preferably give Dwarves their own finally}.

Make the Domain take up a Feat Slot

Charge 150TP for each

See just how many people pay for that Feat to be available to them.

If it works - Do the same for Sov Host/Silver Flame etc. {obviously remove the outdated Feats we currently have} and other Realms Deities.

budalic
06-13-2012, 01:43 AM
The game consists of classes and roles. It's bad enough the d20 system is gone. Giving every character every ability just creates a bland game. I like my characters to have advantages and disadvantages that are different so the playstyle isn't repetitive. And as you said, I am pretty sure most people would rather not have all self healers. It is a social game not a single player game.

Idk, really. Guild wars 2 is doing away with healers.

I feel that in it's current incarnation, DDO would be better without dedicated healers in quests (raids are different, though) - same as you don't need dedicated tank in pretty much every epic quest currently on live. Why?

a) Because self-healing is already avilaible to casters, that are most effective toons. Giving self-healing to fighters and barbs (though, there are already silver flame pots there) and stuff won't unbalance the game, because you could just get another sorc in that slot and nuke the **** out of stuff.

b) It makes one type of classes too dependable upon others. While really good players probably can get away with blasting and healing at same time, healing multiple party members is thought consuming. I've seen melees get dissapointed in last fight of eServants (pre-nerf) when my FvS friend needed to kite cats through blade barrier and couldn't keep them all alive. However, we decided not to wait for another divine at start of quest, because they aren't that easy to get. If they at least had modicum of self-healing, they would get to contribute.

What about people that like playing healers?
Hmm, IMO, there should be dedicated healer class for them. There was class called simply 'Healer' in 3.5e; in miniatures handbook, I think. So, we could apply same to DDO - make a class that is focused on healing, buffing and preventing damage - sort of like CC in reverse. So that you'd like to have it with you, because that healer guy is awesome, and it's gonna provide you with sweet defensive abilities, gonna heal you when you can't - and isn't better off casting blade barriers, instakills, and ignoring healing.

I'm all for roles in raids, though - tanks, healers, damage, crowd control, ranged damage, buffing - everything should have place there.

butcheredspirit
06-13-2012, 01:52 AM
I'd say they need two things viewing the new xpac stuff:

Earthquake
Storm of Vengence

Oh, and Sunbeam (wishful thinking). But dead serious on the first others.

Some people actually build raid healing capable casting divines. It only makes sense to give them the spells their counterparts in PnP have out of the box as they say.

Regenerate and Ice Flowers could be added to that list

Sunbeam may be wisful thinking....actually it all feels like wishful thinking now.


/Signed

Quick suggestion for Domains.

Take two Forgotten Realms Gods - I'm not up to date with which ones are still available. {Preferably give Dwarves their own finally}.

Make the Domain take up a Feat Slot

Charge 150TP for each

See just how many people pay for that Feat to be available to them.

If it works - Do the same for Sov Host/Silver Flame etc. {obviously remove the outdated Feats we currently have} and other Realms Deities.


I would love to be able to take a Forgotten Realms god. Those gods seem more interesting to me, as they are more present and active.

I would object if we were made to pay for domains with a feat, they really should be free.
Infact they should grant small feats!

Shameful as it is, I would pay for that.
I wish the cleric class was released as P2P, then we might get toughness enhancments, domains, divine metamagics.

MRMechMan
06-13-2012, 02:15 AM
Divines as is: Plenty of them, and many can solo better than most classes. Often don't join groups due to bad experiences. Healing a party of people who are undergeared, don't know quest and are straight up STUPID and won't listen...well lets just say it ranges from annoying to unplayable. Being commanded around like a hire and having to wait for idiots to wander around in the desert looking for chains of flame, etc...well it is easier just to solo, put up restrictive lfms (omg elitest!) or put BYOH. It isn't worth the headache.


Divines if nerfed: If divines cannot solo for whatever reason...well that is the entire appeal of them for a lot of people. I really enjoy raid healing, but if getting to 20 means I am at the mercy of pug melees...my clr/fvs would never have gotten rolled. Ever. I am OK healbotting sometimes but all the time is horrifying. So there will definitely be less of them, perhaps more join groups because they cannot solo, but that is a poor solution I think. Nerfing a classes abilities to make them party with other classes just seems...wrong. Would rather buff the other classes.

I think the solution really is to give melee better healing options. Make them better dps so that they are actually worth bringing along, they actually speed things up. Reduce dungeon scaling. If you have 2-3 sorcs/divines with blade barrier, etc...you NEVER need a melee. Maybe for a str lever or something equally flavoresque. In fact, you not only hardly ever need them, you don't want them around for 1-19 as they are a -10% XP pot, can't self heal, add nothing. Zerging on a melee is HORRIFYINGLY awful. After playing a sorc to 20 and any melee...it is just night and day in terms of raw speed.

If I see an lfm for clr/fvs only, elite sins of attrition and 5 melee in the group...that is my idea of hell.

On the other hand, joining a party of first timer undergeared new players and dragging them through a normal TOD or something I find to be quite enjoyable. But for TRing it is a waste of time.

Anyway, I think clr/fvs should be kept fun. Not many people will roll a fvs/clr just for a support roll/just to heal pugs. If they aren't fun to play, there is no motivation in ever playing them, and divines are truely the glue that holds the pug scene together at the moment.

sandypaws
06-13-2012, 07:27 AM
Clerics have 1 more potential WIS, but that only matters in some cases, and even with the WIS advantage, FvS's have an effective +2 DC for anything in their Aura of Menace, so FvS's still would have the DC advantage. This WIS advantage can lead to +1 Will save, which is something that doesn't usually matter either due to buffs or due to the extreme DC's of high level will save effects (eParty traps, Otto's Sphere from epic casters, forgetting Prot-Evil when facing eChrono Abishai).

Clerics can splash without losing as much, due to the strong but situational capstone being less desirable than a FvS's capstone and DR.

1) Situational, yes, but I promise you my cleric tries to take advantage of the FvS aura whenever possible. In fact, since she's at middling DC levels, I find the presence of an FvS boosts her performance significantly. Counting the Aura of Menace as an FvS only boost might undersell clerics.

2) At least for me, splashing on a cleric vs FvS is more an issue of the number of ninth level spells you get. You can still get the implosion-mass heal-energy drain series on an 18th level cleric. Splash an FvS at all and you're down to 2. Of course, maybe my addiction to energy drain is more because of my middling DCs than how critical the spell itself might be.

3) Being able to splash a cleric, potentially gaining extra feats on a feat-starved class while retaining those three ninth level slots, opens you up to DC boosters. e.g. monk water stance, taking wizard active PL, spell focus evocation, etc.

That said, it's super depressing when you see another divine with ~180% your SP, a bunch more hp, and wings to boot. Sob.

Emili
06-13-2012, 07:58 AM
/Signed

Quick suggestion for Domains.

Take two Forgotten Realms Gods - I'm not up to date with which ones are still available. {Preferably give Dwarves their own finally}.

Make the Domain take up a Feat Slot

Charge 150TP for each

See just how many people pay for that Feat to be available to them.

If it works - Do the same for Sov Host/Silver Flame etc. {obviously remove the outdated Feats we currently have} and other Realms Deities.

Pretty much I always viewed DDO's static cure spell force as the healing Domain... Then there are questions arise such as alignment ties and racial ties, One must remember Faerun rules tightly couple and if relaxed, wonder how slotting of those - hard pressed cure spell slots will be covered by domains?

Human pantheons
Major Faerunian deities
Azuth • Bane • Chauntea • Cyric • Eilistraee • Gond • Helm • Ilmater • Kelemvor • Kossuth • Lathander • Lolth • Malar • Mask • Mielikki • Mystra • Oghma • Selûne • Shar • Shaundakul • Silvanus • Sune • Talos • Tempus • Torm • Tymora • Tyr • Umberlee • Uthgar • Waukeen

Other Faerunian deities
Akadi • Auril • Beshaba • Deneir • Eldath • Finder • Garagos • Gargauth • Grumbar • Gwaeron Windstrom • Hoar • Istishia • Jergal • Lliira • Loviatar • Lurue • Milil • Nobanion • Red Knight • Savras • Sharess • Shiallia • Siamorphe • Talona • Tiamat • Ubtao • Ulutiu • Valkur • Velsharoon

Kara-Turan pantheon
Ai Ch'ing • Chan Cheng • Ch'en Hsiang • Chih Shih • Fa Kuan • Hsing Yong • Kwan Ying • Mad Monkey • Nung Chiang • Shu Chia • The Celestial Emperor

Maztican pantheon
Azul • Eha • Kiltzi • Maztica • Nula • Plutoq • Qotal • Tezca • Watil • Zaltec

Mulhorandi pantheon
Anhur • Geb • Hathor • Horus-Re • Isis • Nephthys • Osiris • Sebek • Set • Thoth

Zakharan pantheon
Bala • Hajama • Hakiyah • Haku • Jauhar • Jisan • Kor • Najm • Ragarra • Selan • Vataqatal • Zann

Demihuman and humanoid pantheons
Drow pantheon
Lolth • Ghaunadaur • Kiaransalee • Selvetarm • Vhaeraun

Dwarven pantheon
Abbathor • Berronar Truesilver • Clangeddin Silverbeard • Deep Duerra • Dugmaren Brightmantle • Dumathoin • Gorm Gulthyn • Haela Brightaxe • Laduguer • Marthammor Duin • Moradin • Sharindlar • Thard Harr • Vergadain

Elven pantheon
Aerdrie Faenya • Angharradh • Corellon Larethian • Deep Sashelas • Erevan Ilesere • Fenmarel Mestarine • Hanali Celanil • Labelas Enoreth • Rillifane Rallathil • Sehanine Moonbow • Shevarash • Solonor Thelandira

Gnome pantheon
Baervan Wildwanderer • Baravar Cloakshadow • Callarduran Smoothhands • Flandal Steelskin • Gaerdal Ironhand • Garl Glittergold • Segojan Earthcaller • Urdlen

Halfling pantheon
Arvoreen • Brandobaris • Cyrrollalee • Sheela Peryroyl • Urogalan • Yondalla

Orc pantheon
Bahgtru • Gruumsh • Ilneval • Luthic • Shargaas • Yurtrus

Yes, I was a geeky young one... :p

Aelonwy
06-13-2012, 08:14 AM
/Signed

Quick suggestion for Domains.

Take two Forgotten Realms Gods - I'm not up to date with which ones are still available. {Preferably give Dwarves their own finally}.

Make the Domain take up a Feat Slot

Charge 150TP for each

See just how many people pay for that Feat to be available to them.

If it works - Do the same for Sov Host/Silver Flame etc. {obviously remove the outdated Feats we currently have} and other Realms Deities.

2 Domains are free to clerics at creation according to PnP, if I had to use an existing feat slot for them there is no way in heck I'd pay for it even if it was sooo grossly overpowering ppl demand it as a must have... obviously because anything that OP would be doomed to nerf after ppl paid for it.




Pretty much I always viewed DDO's static cure spell force as the healing Domain...
[/I]



NO.
The static cure spells represent PnP Good/Neutral clerics Spontaneous Casting that is the channeling of stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. If we had evil alignments neutral clerics could choose at first level to have static inflict spells instead.

MRMechMan
06-13-2012, 08:21 AM
Pretty much I always viewed DDO's static cure spell force as the healing Domain... Then there are questions arise such as alignment ties and racial ties, One must remember Faerun rules tightly couple and if relaxed, wonder how slotting of those - hard pressed cure spell slots will be covered by domains?

Human pantheons
Major Faerunian deities
Azuth • Bane • Chauntea • Cyric • Eilistraee • Gond • Helm • Ilmater • Kelemvor • Kossuth • Lathander • Lolth • Malar • Mask • Mielikki • Mystra • Oghma • Selûne • Shar • Shaundakul • Silvanus • Sune • Talos • Tempus • Torm • Tymora • Tyr • Umberlee • Uthgar • Waukeen

Other Faerunian deities
Akadi • Auril • Beshaba • Deneir • Eldath • Finder • Garagos • Gargauth • Grumbar • Gwaeron Windstrom • Hoar • Istishia • Jergal • Lliira • Loviatar • Lurue • Milil • Nobanion • Red Knight • Savras • Sharess • Shiallia • Siamorphe • Talona • Tiamat • Ubtao • Ulutiu • Valkur • Velsharoon

Kara-Turan pantheon
Ai Ch'ing • Chan Cheng • Ch'en Hsiang • Chih Shih • Fa Kuan • Hsing Yong • Kwan Ying • Mad Monkey • Nung Chiang • Shu Chia • The Celestial Emperor

Maztican pantheon
Azul • Eha • Kiltzi • Maztica • Nula • Plutoq • Qotal • Tezca • Watil • Zaltec

Mulhorandi pantheon
Anhur • Geb • Hathor • Horus-Re • Isis • Nephthys • Osiris • Sebek • Set • Thoth

Zakharan pantheon
Bala • Hajama • Hakiyah • Haku • Jauhar • Jisan • Kor • Najm • Ragarra • Selan • Vataqatal • Zann

Demihuman and humanoid pantheons
Drow pantheon
Lolth • Ghaunadaur • Kiaransalee • Selvetarm • Vhaeraun

Dwarven pantheon
Abbathor • Berronar Truesilver • Clangeddin Silverbeard • Deep Duerra • Dugmaren Brightmantle • Dumathoin • Gorm Gulthyn • Haela Brightaxe • Laduguer • Marthammor Duin • Moradin • Sharindlar • Thard Harr • Vergadain

Elven pantheon
Aerdrie Faenya • Angharradh • Corellon Larethian • Deep Sashelas • Erevan Ilesere • Fenmarel Mestarine • Hanali Celanil • Labelas Enoreth • Rillifane Rallathil • Sehanine Moonbow • Shevarash • Solonor Thelandira

Gnome pantheon
Baervan Wildwanderer • Baravar Cloakshadow • Callarduran Smoothhands • Flandal Steelskin • Gaerdal Ironhand • Garl Glittergold • Segojan Earthcaller • Urdlen

Halfling pantheon
Arvoreen • Brandobaris • Cyrrollalee • Sheela Peryroyl • Urogalan • Yondalla

Orc pantheon
Bahgtru • Gruumsh • Ilneval • Luthic • Shargaas • Yurtrus

Yes, I was a geeky young one... :p


THAT LIST RIGHT THERE GOT ME MORE PUMPED FOR THE EXPANSION THAN ANYTHING YET!

thank you :)

FranOhmsford
06-13-2012, 10:43 AM
2 Domains are free to clerics at creation according to PnP, if I had to use an existing feat slot for them there is no way in heck I'd pay for it even if it was sooo grossly overpowering ppl demand it as a must have... obviously because anything that OP would be doomed to nerf after ppl paid for it.


I was talking about the Silver Flame/Sov Host/Vulkoor etc. Feat Slot we have on our Divines at this moment.

I was talking about adding in two proper Realms Deities - Possibly Moradin for the Dwarves and Tyr.

Then buffing up the existing ones to equal the new feats.
Say instead of simply getting +1 to Scimitars and Undying Call Elven Clerics/FavSouls of the Undying Court got +2 to all Necromancy DCs, +1/2 to hit and +2/4 dmg with Scimitars and Undying Call 3x/Rest
Elven Paladins of the Undying Court could get +3 To Hit and +3/6/9/12 to Dmg {Lvls 1, 6, 12 and 18} with Scimitars/Falchions instead of the Necro DCs

The existing ones would essentially remain F2P unless you chose to buy the P2P version.

I personally don't see this as in any way OP BUT I do feel that we need more from each Religion choice.

Maybe the Devs could also give us some more House J favour so we can hit 400 {Domains could be the favour reward for this - For those who prefer to stay F2P}.

HatsuharuZ
06-13-2012, 11:03 AM
Clerics need less expensive spell amp, a wider range of spells and domains. For those who don't know, domains give clerics bonus spells, additional effects on their turn undead ability, improved turning ability, or some extra feats depending on which domains are picked. For example: The "Earth" domain could give a cleric the Toughness feat at first level, and later on he'd gain access to the Stoneskin spell at the level it would become available to an arcane caster. In a second example, the "Good" domain would allow a cleric to turn OUTSIDERS along with undead.

Melees need to be able to get enough AC so that they don't get hit 95% of the time on all high level quests... which, I believe, is going to happen in Update 14. That'll solve part of the healing problem, I hope.

Sarisa
06-13-2012, 11:09 AM
Melees need to be able to get enough AC so that they don't get hit 95% of the time on all high level quests... which, I believe, is going to happen in Update 14. That'll solve part of the healing problem, I hope.

However, it was done in such a way with such massive diminishing returns that those who invest heavily in AC got horribly nerfed, and will suffer significantly more damage. Spending a month+ grinding out the top current AC gear will get you only a few additional percent of mitigation, not like before where it could give you so much more.

It also is an indirect nerf to the Torc and Conc Op, since you'll always have some more AC that you didn't have before.

Aelonwy
06-13-2012, 11:18 AM
I was talking about the Silver Flame/Sov Host/Vulkoor etc. Feat Slot we have on our Divines at this moment.

I was talking about adding in two proper Realms Deities - Possibly Moradin for the Dwarves and Tyr.

Then buffing up the existing ones to equal the new feats.
Say instead of simply getting +1 to Scimitars and Undying Call Elven Clerics/FavSouls of the Undying Court got +2 to all Necromancy DCs, +1/2 to hit and +2/4 dmg with Scimitars and Undying Call 3x/Rest
Elven Paladins of the Undying Court could get +3 To Hit and +3/6/9/12 to Dmg {Lvls 1, 6, 12 and 18} with Scimitars/Falchions instead of the Necro DCs

The existing ones would essentially remain F2P unless you chose to buy the P2P version.

I personally don't see this as in any way OP BUT I do feel that we need more from each Religion choice.

Maybe the Devs could also give us some more House J favour so we can hit 400 {Domains could be the favour reward for this - For those who prefer to stay F2P}.

I see the confusion now. I don't really know how FVS work but for clerics in DDO you are not talking about feats at all. You are referring to enhancements. Clerics only spend AP not feats selecting their deity/faith. I'm all for more faith choices and buffing the faith lines altogether but that won't happen till the Enhancement Pass, if then. P2P Forgotten Realms faith enhancements? I don't know. I'd have to see what they come up with before I would choose to purchase them. True cleric domains would be like actual feats chosen at creation, and would be respeced with Fred or LR or something like that.... Domains based in enhancements could be respeced with trainer. Not sure which would be a better option, nor how the devs would go about it if they ever do.

Fomori
06-13-2012, 11:25 AM
I want to disagree with the OP.

I dont think having this notion that divines need to be bumped to increase grouping is the right mentality. The correct mentality is how to do we break the MMO trinity mindset (tank-dps-heals) to allow even more flexible groups.

The biggest problem is the misconception that other MMO players think about their own character. They are fitting it into a role and expecting others to cover the other parts of the trinity. What they should be doing is seeing in what situations their character can fill any of the roles, as that is the best contributor to a party.

It is also important to remember that Paladins, Rangers, and Bards also have access to divine healing spells. Those with high UMD can use wands/scrolls. Artificers can cast infusions, but at a cost of needing potions. Sure, those are usually not as powerful or versatile as a divine caster but they can work when needed. You may need more tactics and take longer but it can be done.

Thus I think we need to bash this "need healer" mentality in the head and start educating the playerbase in that you can succeed even without a FvS or Cleric nannybotting your group.

Sarisa
06-13-2012, 11:51 AM
I dont think having this notion that divines need to be bumped to increase grouping is the right mentality. The correct mentality is how to do we break the MMO trinity mindset (tank-dps-heals) to allow even more flexible groups.

Hence GW2.

KillEveryone
06-13-2012, 12:58 PM
Only time I'll pug any divine I play will be when leveling 1 to 20. I may do Shroud, but I don't do any other raid or any kind of epic pug on my divine.

Making me more powerful won't make me pug.

What needs to change is the attitude that it is my only job to heal and that melee players are entitled to my SP.

What needs to change is people need to take some personal responsibility for their own HP.

It gets requested that I purchase wands to keep the party alive during quests. I tend to do that so that I can use my SP for other stuff since players don't want to drink a pot because it costs them plat, never mind that I'm being requested to bring my own wands. I've been told it is my job to bring my own wands on a few of the occasions that I did request a reimbursement.

It gets requested that I bring SP pots, never mind that it costs plat, even though melee players won't bring CSW pots because it costs plat.

Sometimes people offer to replenish but more often other players don't care.

It is player attitudes toward divines that is the problem.

Clatterfist
06-13-2012, 01:18 PM
Dungeons and Dragons has been deliberately making divine magic users overpowered to incentivise people to "play the healer" since at least 2nd Edition. I seem to remember that they were pretty upfront about it in one of the cleric-based splatbooks.

DDO copies most of the extra oomph over from the base game. They lost a little by excluding domains and by encouraging extreme specialisation, but I think most of the disincentive now comes down to player perception and gamer culture: people expect divines to be primarily used as healers. That's probably not fixable by a reasonable-sized injection of pure power, even on top of the sweet deal that D&D has been giving to healing-capable characters for a long time.

GermanicusMaximus
06-13-2012, 01:34 PM
the healing these days is especially fun with all the level 16 newbs running around in complete trash for gear and no clue what they are doing.

Meh, its not that much worse than all the capped melee running around in greensteel and no clue what they are doing :D

There are some damn good melee toons in this game who make being a divine caster a lot of fun. I simply wish there were more of them.

Khatzhas
06-13-2012, 01:47 PM
Domains could get a bit tricky. In PnP, Clerics only have one Domain slot per level: they can't cast more domain spells like they can with spells on the Cleric list. That is why the domain-type abilities bestowed by the tenets of faith in the game currently are limited in some way.
Should they be limited-use SLAs like Dragonmarks or the current tenet abilities, or actual additions to the already-expansive divine spell list that the cheric could cast as many times as their spell power allows?
What happens when the domain spell is one that the cleric already has access to at that level?
What happens when the domain spell is one that is in high demand and currently limited to a class other than divines?

I'm also not sure about Clerics having crises of faith and changing their system of belief as they arrive in the realms. If nothing else, the idea of a God that you could actually meet and punch in the face would be quite alien to them.

GermanicusMaximus
06-13-2012, 01:49 PM
Do you have any idea how annoying this is to people who primarily play divines?

I can read the ****ing LFMs too, you know. It's not like the LFM panel shows up for everyone BUT divines.... :rolleyes:



I especially "enjoy" having people spam me tells to join their group when I am already in a quest, either with a party or soloing. I used to ask whether they really expected me to ditch my current quest just to run theirs, but too many said "yes"....

There really needs to be an option to block all incoming tells except from people in your party.

Ungood
06-13-2012, 02:03 PM
I want to disagree with the OP.

I dont think having this notion that divines need to be bumped to increase grouping is the right mentality. The correct mentality is how to do we break the MMO trinity mindset (tank-dps-heals) to allow even more flexible groups.

^ This.. again!

Many see the light here, (pun intended) that the problem is not in the abilities of the divine class but the limitations of other classes.

If someone plays a fighter or a barb and sees that all they can do is play the "Melee" part of the "Trinity" (Melee,Healer, Crowed Control) then they quickly assume that the Cleric must play the "Healer", and that Wizards are "Crowed Control".

Thus the answer is at this point is not in any revision to the Divine classes but to fix the broken melee classes.

We need to focus on building more diversity and ability into very myopic classes like fighters and barbs that new players are attracted to, (after all a Game that boats "Most Epic Combat" is bound to attract people to their melee classes), so that they can do far more then "Hit things with a sword" and we need to augment the starting abilities that existing self-sufficient classes posses.

Case in point:


Pallies and Rangers should go up to Level 6 spells as opposed to their cap at level 4 they have now. With druids coming out, that will open up the spell book for rangers and that should make it easy on development
Bards should get to pick any spell from any school, to embody their diversity and randomness.

They should also get more songs and other abilities as well as be allowed to take Evasion at level 12 and Improved Evasion at 18th.


Barbs should get better DR and their Rage should apply a healing when getting hit effect like con-op, but provides temp life, to symbolize that rage carrying them onward into battle, (The False Life HP gained go away when the rage wears off which may or may not kill them at that point tho)
Fighters and Barbs should get "Quaff" which allows them to use several potions simultaneously to shorten the time it takes to recover life from potions. This shows that Covering yourself at an early level is expected.
Fighters should get a feat that allows them to regen life "Echos of Life" or something.while they are conscious.
Regen should be sped up a great deal.
Bigger and better Potions need to be made available at lower levels to support the increase in HP that players are expected to have.
Low Level Heal Amp items need to be put in the game. like as opposed to that silly amulet of the brute being a ****** item, have it provide a 7% heal amp to it, so players starting out realize that "Hey! Heal amp is the way to go"

These are just a few ideas that would really change the whole dynamic of the game and break away from the ongoing problem of players making a fuss about needing healers.


Lets be real, Divines don't want to play healer, and making them even more powerful will only serve to enable to them to solo better, not inspire them to heal groups more. So Divines need to be left alone, and the classes that are in need right now, should get the attention to fix this problem.

The only way new players are going to get it in their heads that they need to take care of themselves is not going to come from rude, obnoxious jaded vets giving them a hard time, it is going to come from having the means, abilities, and gear put into their hand right out the starting gate with the notion that You have the ability to cover yourself, now use it.

Otherwise they will play this game like most other MMO's where you have a Melee who only does melee, a Healer that only Heals, and a CC that only does that. And in this game, the Divine already does a lot more then heal, and that means they don't want to only heal. Their diversity has freed them form the confines of roles, it's now time to do the same to all the classes!

But the problem is, they DON'T have the ability to cover themselves, and this is prevalent in this game from level 1 on, for any Melee, even a Pally has to tough it out for 4 levels, being nothing but a sword swinger, till they get some self healing. That needs to be changed, that needs to stop.

HatsuharuZ
06-13-2012, 02:21 PM
However, it was done in such a way with such massive diminishing returns that those who invest heavily in AC got horribly nerfed, and will suffer significantly more damage. Spending a month+ grinding out the top current AC gear will get you only a few additional percent of mitigation, not like before where it could give you so much more.

It also is an indirect nerf to the Torc and Conc Op, since you'll always have some more AC that you didn't have before.

Most melees don't have much in the way of damage mitigation right now, which is why they take alot of damage and need alot of attention from the healing classes in the party. The new AC system will take some of the pressure off of the divines and make melees more durable. Also, you won't NEED to grind the top AC gear unless you want to under the new system... or at least that's what I'm hoping.

btw, why are torc and con-op even a concern? They are certainly useful, but they shouldn't be considered required equipment.

GermanicusMaximus
06-13-2012, 02:38 PM
The game consists of classes and roles. It's bad enough the d20 system is gone. Giving every character every ability just creates a bland game. I like my characters to have advantages and disadvantages that are different so the playstyle isn't repetitive. And as you said, I am pretty sure most people would rather not have all self healers. It is a social game not a single player game.


The underlying problem to grouping in this game is that the classes are not balanced, but not in the way most people believe.

Divines contribute heals, buffs and personal DPS to the party.

Arcanes contribute buffs and personal DPS to the party.

Non-tanking melee simply contribute personal DPS to the party.

Non-tanking melee have difficulty finding groups because they provide nothing unique to the party. Back in the "Good Old Days", this was solved by effectively limiting divines to buffs and heals, arcanes to buffs, and melee to personal DPS. Most melee players loved this arrangement, because its great to essentially have slaves follow you around while you have a good time.

A lot of melee still pine for those days, and the changes packaged with the expansion to a large degree are designed to move us in the direction of that model. Good luck finding a lot of arcane and divine players interested in becoming slaves in 2012.

If melee don't want to be second rate classes, its time to become first rate party members. That means stepping up, being real team players and taking on a unique party role. Personal DPS is the battle cry, but it simply isn't enough.

Sadly, most non-tanking melee players really aren't interested in equality of contribution, because it could impinge upon their fun. The sparcity of quality AC tanks today tells you all you really need to know about the average melee player's dedication to team play.

Frankly, I expect any classes which provide unique capabilities to the team to be overpowered. By overpowered, I mean overpowered simply by the standards of personal DPS. Their unique team contribution is just something to be be layered on top of that overpowered personal DPS.

In real world terms, I don't expect to work for free. If I just wanted equal personal DPS, I could slack and play a melee toon.

Melee players screamed about "overpowered casters". They are about to experience underpowered casters. Buffs and heals are privileges, not rights. Melee players may soon pine for the "Good Old Days of Early 2012".

Aelonwy
06-13-2012, 02:53 PM
Pallies and Rangers should go up to Level 6 spells as opposed to their cap at level 4 they have now. With druids coming out, that will open up the spell book for rangers and that should make it easy on development
Bards should get to pick any spell from any school, to embody their diversity and randomness.

They should also get more songs and other abilities as well as be allowed to take Evasion at level 12 and Improved Evasion at 18th.


Barbs should get better DR and their Rage should apply a healing when getting hit effect like con-op, but provides temp life, to symbolize that rage carrying them onward into battle, (The False Life HP gained go away when the rage wears off which may or may not kill them at that point tho)
Fighters and Barbs should get "Quaff" which allows them to use several potions simultaneously to shorten the time it takes to recover life from potions. This shows that Covering yourself at an early level is expected.
Fighters should get a feat that allows them to regen life "Echos of Life" or something.while they are conscious.
Regen should be sped up a great deal.
Bigger and better Potions need to be made available at lower levels to support the increase in HP that players are expected to have.
Low Level Heal Amp items need to be put in the game. like as opposed to that silly amulet of the brute being a ****** item, have it provide a 7% heal amp to it, so players starting out realize that "Hey! Heal amp is the way to go"



I certainly agree that melee need to be buffed more than cleric/fvs. I don't know that I can agree with every point above but I do think some higher level healing potions without the ridiculous drawbacks of Silverflame potions would be a good idea. Easily accesible, lower minimum level, smaller amount healing amp items would go a long ways in opening new players eyes to the possibilities. Reduce the enhancement costs of healing amp too. Regen speeds and amounts are ridiculous in a game where most melees have 450+ hp at the very least. DR could easily get a buff because of the crazy, insane amounts of dmg mobs can do to us in one swipe.... now even with 100% fortification.

However, while I might drool at my bard getting better spells... evasion was never part of that class, and improved evasion? Yeah, thats not gonna happen. Paladins and rangers don't get higher level spells according to PnP but with the way this game works and so long as the spells were of limited selection from those levels I would not be truly against it.

I still say it wouldn't hurt to make healing less onerous for us by any of the methods I mentioned previously, ie make healing spells cost a little less, or make healing enhancments cheaper or better or more efficient, or make the animation for healing spells just a little swifter. Any of these changes would lessen the aggravation of healing in PUGS. There is very little the devs can do about players attitudes or behaviors toward each other. More's the pity.

GermanicusMaximus
06-13-2012, 03:28 PM
btw, why are torc and con-op even a concern? They are certainly useful, but they shouldn't be considered required equipment.

I would certainly consider them required equipment on any caster I play. Given all the level 20 casters I see running ADQ2 on elite (when they'd prefer to be running it on Epic) just to maximize their chances for a torc drop tells me I am hardly alone in that view.

None of this would be an issue in this game if casters received unlimited spell points (like melee receive unlimited swings of their weapons), but the devs view that as "overpowered". Plus, it would decrease revenue from mana pots sales in the DDO store :D

DarkForte
06-13-2012, 03:58 PM
I join pug raids for fun, because it's not a guaranteed completion/snoozefest like the guild/channel runs I normally heal. Having a 99% chance of success gets boring after completing a raid for the 300th time.
I loved this. Too funny

Ungood
06-13-2012, 05:33 PM
I certainly agree that melee need to be buffed more than cleric/fvs. I don't know that I can agree with every point above but I do think some higher level healing potions without the ridiculous drawbacks of Silverflame potions would be a good idea. Easily accesible, lower minimum level, smaller amount healing amp items would go a long ways in opening new players eyes to the possibilities. Reduce the enhancement costs of healing amp too. Regen speeds and amounts are ridiculous in a game where most melees have 450+ hp at the very least. DR could easily get a buff because of the crazy, insane amounts of dmg mobs can do to us in one swipe.... now even with 100% fortification.

However, while I might drool at my bard getting better spells... evasion was never part of that class, and improved evasion? Yeah, thats not gonna happen. Paladins and rangers don't get higher level spells according to PnP but with the way this game works and so long as the spells were of limited selection from those levels I would not be truly against it.

My ideas do not superseded the PnP rules, they would be more in line with what could be called "House Rules" which are not only allowed, but encouraged in the DnD environment to build balance in the game as needed, when needed.

In this case, it is needed.


There is very little the devs can do about players attitudes or behaviors toward each other. More's the pity.

There is much they can do, and it start by breaking down the walls of roles and dependency where it should not exist.

Nothing infuriates a melee player like needing a healer and then having to deal with some pompous vet who thinks themselves better because of the class they play. Which is one of the reasons why I stopped playing pure melee's I have one capped pure fighter and I am never going to do that again.

I mean, in reality pretty much every high end melee player has a Healer, which is why we are so massively unimpressed by people who play divines and make a fuss about it.

We don't make a fuss about healer and we don't make a fuss about healing, just part of the package, if you plan to be an honest end game player, like having a capped arcane. Just part of the game. That is why you never see a well connected raiding guild or channel run cancel on a raid or run for a lack of a healer. We have them in spades.

So make no mistake there are ample divines in this game, tons of them in fact.

We don't need an incentive to play more of them, what we need is a means to allow other classes to be free from the idea of roles, and that comes from removing the limitations of the classes that need diversity to help them along, not making an already powerful class more powerful.

butcheredspirit
06-13-2012, 07:17 PM
Dungeons and Dragons has been deliberately making divine magic users overpowered to incentivise people to "play the healer" since at least 2nd Edition. I seem to remember that they were pretty upfront about it in one of the cleric-based splatbooks.

DDO copies most of the extra oomph over from the base game. They lost a little by excluding domains and by encouraging extreme specialisation, but I think most of the disincentive now comes down to player perception and gamer culture: people expect divines to be primarily used as healers. That's probably not fixable by a reasonable-sized injection of pure power, even on top of the sweet deal that D&D has been giving to healing-capable characters for a long time.

Some of it is indeed player perception.
But I think a large reason why divine nukes seem lacking is the enhancement system.
We get enhancements for healing...pushing us into specialising in an area our faith may not even have a huge focus on.
But very little enhancements for offense.

Flamestrike, Ball Lightning and Cone of Cold are all level 5 spells, all dealing 15d6.
Cometfall deals up to 10d12, comparable to Otilukes or chain lightning dealing 20d6 - all are level 6 spells.

Cleric offensive spells weren't originally designed to be weaker than a wizards, they just usually can't cast as many, due to needing to heal.
...Although if you count the domain slot, a cleric has almost the same number of spells per day as sorcerer...
Who knows...maybe the enhancement pass will change some of this.

Jasparion
06-13-2012, 07:52 PM
Only time I'll pug any divine I play will be when leveling 1 to 20. I may do Shroud, but I don't do any other raid or any kind of epic pug on my divine.

Making me more powerful won't make me pug.

And to make things worse, if Divines were more powerful, you'd be less inclined to PuG from 1 to 20 as well.

HatsuharuZ
06-13-2012, 08:00 PM
I don't think that clerics should be more *powerful*. I do think, however, that they are missing many of the abilities that make them versatile and useful. That means giving them domains and adjusting the cost of their spell amp enhancements. Same thing with FvSs and Paladins, minus the part about domains.

Quetzacoala
06-13-2012, 08:24 PM
The reason you do not see tons of divines apply for pug spots on live often is because they are generally more powerful than most other classes already, Very few need a group of melee to do anything and come raiding there are far more underpowered melee than underpowered divines out there... so they tend to stay within known circles. When they see a pug spot up they question themselves before joining.

i.e. should they take the chance and costs or go raid with people they know will get it done? All it takes is one or two bad experiences and they're put in the hole flipping the bill due to someone else.

To sum it up Clerics and FvS are two of the most self-suffcient and adequate classes in the game already, and is the lacking average of other classes generally at thier level keeps them from taking risks - so they do things themselves.

My suggestion to the author of the OP is to roll up a divine - Cleric, FvS or Druid when they come out, then you'd understand why few of us pug them. Personally in any quest I just go solo or take the first people to respond ... You never really need a healer dedicated postion outside of some raid.



My experience playing healers in PUGs has always been a positive one; truth be told, I rarely do anything but PUG when I am playing my healers, simply because I find it to be a rewarding experience.

I cannot blame the many healers who refuse to partake in PUGs though; it oftentimes takes longer than it would to solo or to group with close friends.

Aelonwy
06-13-2012, 09:04 PM
We don't need an incentive to play more of them, what we need is a means to allow other classes to be free from the idea of roles, and that comes from removing the limitations of the classes that need diversity to help them along, not making an already powerful class more powerful.

I didn't really disagree with much of anything you previously said. Although, I still maintain improved evasion on a bard is never going to happen.

And I for one, never said clerics/fvs souls should be made more powerful... I said healing should be made less onerous so that pugging has less aggravation. Healing only.

Yes I want my cleric domains, but they are a part of my given class that is completely left out in this game for some unknown reason.

KillEveryone
06-13-2012, 09:52 PM
And to make things worse, if Divines were more powerful, you'd be less inclined to PuG from 1 to 20 as well.

Actually, I like to be social, I'll just be picky.

FranOhmsford
06-13-2012, 11:00 PM
I see the confusion now. I don't really know how FVS work but for clerics in DDO you are not talking about feats at all. You are referring to enhancements. Clerics only spend AP not feats selecting their deity/faith. I'm all for more faith choices and buffing the faith lines altogether but that won't happen till the Enhancement Pass, if then. P2P Forgotten Realms faith enhancements? I don't know. I'd have to see what they come up with before I would choose to purchase them. True cleric domains would be like actual feats chosen at creation, and would be respeced with Fred or LR or something like that.... Domains based in enhancements could be respeced with trainer. Not sure which would be a better option, nor how the devs would go about it if they ever do.

Favored Souls have to pick a Feat at creation {Lvl 1}
Favored By The Sov Host
Favored By The Silver Flame
Favored By The Undying Court
Favored By The Lord of Blades
Favored By Vulkoor

Clerics and Paladins get an Enhancement - Follower of......

I was using the Favored By... Feat as my starter point.

I see no reason why this feat could not also be given to Clerics and Paladins so they can use it for Domains.

The Enhancement Tree would obviously change too.

For my Undying Court example above I would suggest:

Tier 1 Enhancement for Clerics/Souls would change the +1 to Hit to +2 to Hit / +2 Dmg
Tier 2 would make that +4 Dmg
Tier 3 would give the Necro DC

The Undying Call would remain as is except rather than being once/5 or 10 minutes {not sure how long the cooldown actually is} it would be 3/rest.
Maybe 1/rest at lvl 6, 2/rest at Lvl 12 and 3/rest at lvl 18 BUT NOT Tiered so you don't have to spend silly amounts of action points.

For Paladins - The Feat would give +3 to hit / +3 dmg
Tier 1 would be +6 Dmg
Tier 2 - +9 Dmg
Tier 3 - +12 Dmg

Obviously new {old} spells would need to be brought in to fill out domains too BUT all I'm asking for is better Faith Lines.

Ungood
06-13-2012, 11:53 PM
And to make things worse, if Divines were more powerful, you'd be less inclined to PuG from 1 to 20 as well.


I for one, never said clerics/fvs souls should be made more powerful... I said healing should be made less onerous so that pugging has less aggravation. Healing only.

That right there is the problem. A Divine joins a group and they know they are going to play nanny to at least some of the members. It is quite evident from the countless forum posts and even the very terms they use like "Nanny-Bot" or "Heal-bot", that some players simply do not enjoy healing or taking care of the other members in the party that need assistance, however they are attracted to the power divines already have.

So the only way to honestly rectify the problem at this point is to remove this feeling or idea of dependency that others classes may have on a "healer"

That can only be accomplished by viable, renewable, cost effective means for every class to tend to their own needs, from the early levels all the way up, which currently simply does not exist, and it needs to for this game to progress forward.

BYOH and Self Sufficient Builds are the wave of the future, undeniable direction this game is shifting towards due to the desire and wants of the player base. No Divine walks into a group wanting to deal with some squishy spell sponge.

Even the few that like to play the support role of healer don't like being the only source, no matter what a player does, they simply can't be in two spots at the same time or deal with players that do not know how to work within their spacial environment.

So the answer lies in not putting that demand upon them. remove from the other playesr the idea that are supposed to be dependent upon a "Healer" and provide to all the classes the tools and means to be self reliant from the get go, so they build up not only the reptour of skills in how to work pots, wands, and others means to keep themselves alive, they get used it, accustom to taking care of themselves from Krothos on forward.

In the case of Pallies it is level 2, here is your Lay Hands, figure out how to use this keep yourself alive in the hard fights, and then at 4th it's "Here is your Healing spell, we expect you to take care of yourself now" it's early, it happens quick, and they get it fast so they don't have the time to get accustom to someone else taking care of their every scratch and wound.

Every class needs to have that, from the start, "here, we expect you to be self reliant" I mean really, you never read a DnD story where Dritzzt and his friends need to wait around for the "healer" to show up.

DDO needs to put that "Adventure with what you got" type feel into this game. Where First 5 is good enough even for starting players. Where no one is expected to stand around waiting for someone else to take care of them.

Think about how feeble that makes a class seem. How can you hold a vision that you';re playing a hardy though barb if that class needs a nurse maid to be able to do any quest. That is boggles the mind that Turbine lets that sit and fester and rot into their game.

I mean for second life and third life players who have the funds, it is a money sink even a pet project to have a self sufficient melee, after our arcane farmed the parts for the epic items, and all that jazz. But really, that kind of dependency needs to be abolished!

No I am not expecting a barb to solo heal an elite shroud Run. what I am expecting is that they can join a group and no one questions if they need to pull a hire or if they can take care of themselves. It needs to be the nature of all builds to be self reliant, only then will players want to be with other players.

Think about it. No one wants to be in a clingy yet abusive relationship, and that is what divines face every time they join a Pug, where some melee needs them to be there with them all the time and then if they die it's all the divines fault, and you know what, I understand their apprehension facing that at all, ever.

So the only way to remove that is to make it so that the melee don't need to feel clingy or dependent, that when they die they accept that it was all their fault. Like seeing a WF wizard drops dead, they don't blame the cleric, it's like "Dammit. sorry guys. I did not get the recon off in time" or "The mob tripped me" they have total accountabliy for themselves. That is why Divines and Arcane LIKE to group together!

What needs to happen is for that total accountability to now be moved on to all the melee classes and that can't happen until they have the tools and means to be able to account for themselves.

That is where the change needs to happen. That is what will make being a divine in a group fun. When we can all go in and know. we are not going to be pointing fingers, we can all work together while doing our own thing.

We know that is the answer. We realize it, and that will forever remain the problem until Turbine also realizes it.

Sgt_Hart
06-14-2012, 12:40 AM
Fighters should get a feat that allows them to regen life "Echos of Life" or something.while they are conscious.

Lots of good ideas in there, I'm just gonna nitpick this one and say..

BLANKETY, BLANK, BLANK, NO!


Not fighters, Give it to paladins, the feat-starved, gimp DPS, 2nd rate tank class...

The heir to the throne is already spoiled enough. Give the third son a horse(Not that paladins (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050224a) are suppose to inherently get mounts or anything.).

Khatzhas
06-14-2012, 04:56 AM
Non-tanking melee simply contribute personal DPS to the party.

If melee don't want to be second rate classes, its time to become first rate party members. That means stepping up, being real team players and taking on a unique party role. Personal DPS is the battle cry, but it simply isn't enough. Indeed. The issue is that melee have not been given any tools that they can use to do other than this. Melee can trip, stun dangerous mobs, Imp sunder to reduce fortitude saves, and use destruction/cursespewing weapons for likewise. That is all part of playing a melee, and since they require hitting the opponent, I'm assuming that they're all lumped into your "personal DPS" category. But unless you are a halfling that is about the limit of your party-support toolbox.

The answer to the issue you are proposing would seem to be giving them some more abilities to help out fellow party members. Just off the top of my head, how about a feat that allows you to help a knocked-down character get up immediately? Or some "tactical leadership" type buffs that provide bonuses to your party's AC and rolls to resist effects like knockdown and stunning blow? (Actually, party support is I think, the Purple Dragon Knight's schtick so for all we know they'll be coming in November.)


Sadly, most non-tanking melee players really aren't interested in equality of contribution, because it could impinge upon their fun. The sparcity of quality AC tanks today tells you all you really need to know about the average melee player's dedication to team play. Actually, its more a reflection of the limitations of the current AC system. You can't really play an AC tank without having access to gear that you cannot get with that toon. If you want to tank, you either need to be supplied by another character, or stick to mitigation-based tanking using shield-blocking. At which point you are slowing the rest of the group down unless its a quest that would normally challenge them a lot.
Lots of melee start with the intention of supporting the group by tanking, but learn that outside some situations, trying to tank doesn't actually support the group.


In real world terms, I don't expect to work for free. If I just wanted equal personal DPS, I could slack and play a melee toon. Given some of your previous statements, I'm pretty sure you would not achieve it.


None of this would be an issue in this game if casters received unlimited spell points (like melee receive unlimited swings of their weapons), but the devs view that as "overpowered". Plus, it would decrease revenue from mana pots sales in the DDO store :D Depending upon prestige enhancements, they can do pretty well cycling through SLAs on echoes of power. Obviously doesn't work with every caster though.

aerosole
06-14-2012, 07:03 AM
That right there is the problem. A Divine joins a group and they know they are going to play nanny to at least some of the members. It is quite evident from the countless forum posts and even the very terms they use like "Nanny-Bot" or "Heal-bot", that some players simply do not enjoy healing or taking care of the other members in the party that need assistance, however they are attracted to the power divines already have.

So the only way to honestly rectify the problem at this point is to remove this feeling or idea of dependency that others classes may have on a "healer"


Many of your arguments makes sense, but there is one prevalent mentality amongst players that override any sense of self-sufficiency. It is the need for more dps and more hp.

Amongst melees, which classes are the most self-sufficient in taking care of themselves? Paladins and rangers are obvious candidates. Both classes can get good saves easily, can self-heal, and has a lot of versatility. Rogues are next, mostly due to umd.

Yet, the common attitude in pugs is that these classes are gimped. Paladins are "not dps". Rangers are useless. The rogue is only good for getting that extra +15% trap xp.

And when the high dps barb or fighter joins the party, everyone applauds, finally, now we have some *real* melees!

Players actively *choose* dps and hp over self-sufficiency every single time. Or at least they do in pugs and in forums. Look at the popularity of, say, the monster vs the solar phoenix.

Part of the reason lies in the difficulty to build a good ranger/rogue/paladin. DDO is a complex game and the casual player is simply unable to grasp all the intricacies to make their class or build works. A poorly built character is a liability for the party, and a pain for the healer, regardless of the potential for self-sufficiency. No amount of potential - or actual self healing ability - matters when the build fails.

A properly built character, OTOH, is an asset to the party. Why are divines happy to heal in guild runs but refuse to pug? Because they can trust their guild members to perform, regardless of class and build. The availability of self-healing is never an issue. Guildies know to bring SF pots, heal scrolls, and the like, and contribute as a whole to win the raid.

Imagine if, one day, all casual players make perfect, highly optimized builds and are actually reasonably geared. No 0% fort rogues or 200 hp rangers. Everyone joining your random pug shroud run has 500+ hp and DR breakers. I doubt, as a divine healer, you will feel much trepidation or worry. Even if no one in the whole party can self-heal.

If anything, the game needs to do a better job educating casual players how the complex game mechanics work. For those who does not care, the pre-defined class paths are meant to take care of that... but we all know how atrocious those are. Having a good UI helps a lot in that area (e.g. the defense % numbers is a good example - it tells the newbie player whether their ac is actually working). Some way of benchmarking their build performance is another (again, this is where the paths can help, but fails). Honestly, DDO does a very poor job in these areas, evidenced by the multitudes of poorly build characters.

What divines hate the most is not the boring role of being the sole source of healing; it is the dreadful task of trying to keep an incompetent party alive long enough to drag them through a raid.

Ungood
06-14-2012, 07:20 AM
Not fighters, Give it to paladins, the feat-starved, gimp DPS, 2nd rate tank class...

I would like to take a moment and explain that when I said give, I only meant that such a feat would be available from the list of feats they could select. I have no inhibitions about making an Echo's of Life feat, It was more a personal vision of something that would be am Upgrade to the Die Hard feat, where you take care of yourself and click back 5% of your life every 30 Seconds as long as you are conscious, and not under some negative spell effect like cursed wounds, mummy rot, etc.

In fact, I have no limitations or inhibitions about allowing this feat to be given to all melee classes. Maybe even have it get an enhancement line to augment it faster and further, or even allow it to be used to have a renewing effect that allows a person with this feat to tend another player and restore 10% of their health over the next 30 seconds, useable once a day or renewing like US is, once every 600 seconds.


The heir to the throne is already spoiled enough. Give the third son a horse(Not that paladins (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050224a) are suppose to inherently get mounts or anything.).

I really wish they put in some kind of Pet companion for Pallies, like the Figurine, call it a Bridle or something that summons their 20th level War Horse to come fight with them. I could so see that as a handy class benefit.

There have been a few suggestions along this line as well, like allowing Men-at-arms in the game, to function like arti-dogs, but be basically hires that a player has to outfit, and levels with them. There have been some great ideas on the subject and I hope Turbine takes the time to look into them.

There is no doubt that all the melee classes could use some love, and augments to balance them out are there. Like I said, giving Pallies level 6 spells would be a step in the right direction to make them far more able bodied, as well as give the impression that this is not a second rate tanker class, but it's own construct, this is a caster/melee mix that is a force to reckoned with.


Indeed. The issue is that melee have not been given any tools that they can use to do other than this.

That is the core problem right there, again and again we realize that while every caster class is given a diverse portfolio of tools, melee classes are very one dimensional, and that is where we need to fix them. We need to allow them to bring more to the party then "I can swing this axe really good"

And step one along that path to diversity needs to be the ability to take care of their own needs, if only their own needs.

Making a Self Sufficient Melee should not be relegated to the Pet Project of bored Casters, or players on their path to Completionist going though their "melee lives", which is what it currently is.

KillEveryone
06-14-2012, 07:30 AM
Please don't take my rant to mean that I don't like healing. I really don't mind doing that.

I don't want to have to do that the entire quest because I'd like to have a little fun doing something else with my SP because I have so much more to offer than just dishing out heals.

I think melee need to have better access to self healing options. Regeneration items are junk...over 60 minutes you'll regen 60 HP and it is the rare occasion that a quest is even going to last 30 minutes unless you are new to the quest. Even then, 60 minutes just for 60HP, come on now, that is a tickle on a barbarian. CSW pots don't really make a dent into a barbarian red bar. Silver Flame pots take a bit to get and for new players, this isn't a very good option since they'll have to get the gear to make up for any penalties to the pots since they wouldn't be very likely to fudge a build point for that.

But there is a attitude that when a divine joins, they are going to be stuck watching the red bars when there is more to them than being a red bar watcher.

Sarisa
06-14-2012, 07:48 AM
Think about it. No one wants to be in a clingy yet abusive relationship, and that is what divines face every time they join a Pug, where some melee needs them to be there with them all the time and then if they die it's all the divines fault, and you know what, I understand their apprehension facing that at all, ever.


Best quote in the thread, and sums up my feeling about the one in three or four PUG's that tried my patience and goodwill to the limit.

That is EXACTLY why many divines, even those who love healing and the support role, and play that role extremely well, end up becoming EXTREMELY picky about the groups they join or simply go anonymous and run guild/channel/friends only.

Ungood
06-14-2012, 07:49 AM
Please don't take my rant to mean that I don't like healing. I really don't mind doing that.

I don't want to have to do that the entire quest because I'd like to have a little fun doing something else with my SP because I have so much more to offer than just dishing out heals.

And you shouldn't have to. Really it's bad design to have this dependecny built into these classes. They need to start with better more potent healing items avaliable to melee's.



Lower level Heal Amp
Feats that allow for Healing faster with the tools we have already like Quaff.
Better stronger healing Potions.
Boosting the Speed of Regen Items

There is no reason why a Melee should be so poorly provided for that they feel the need to be dependent upon a divine to nanny them. Both the Melee and the Divine get a portion of their gaming fun robbed from them in such a set up.


But there is a attitude that when a divine joins, they are going to be stuck watching the red bars when there is more to them than being a red bar watcher.Exactly, and on the same token, a Melee player does not like the idea that they need to have a divine join the group to allow them to have any fun. That is why Vets with the funds and gear always play self sufficient melee builds, they would rather throw plat, and I mean just dump plat, gear and farming tine on their main caster to outfit their melee to they do not need to depend on some healer to enable them to have fun.

This dependency that Melee have needs to go away and Melee builds need to have self sufficiency as a class feature and mantra of the game itself.

Every vet, every TR, builds or is funded to the point to take care of themselves, so they can have fun, because that is the natural progression that the game is moving in, and Turbine needs to wake up and address this, support it and make it so that it is embraced by the new players coming to this game., otherwise there will be remain constant friction between melee who feel emasculated because they need to be healed the and divines feel chasten in such a role.

Good will comes from equal players meeting and having fun, dependency generates bitterness. Which is what these forums have in spades, and the only real solution is to remove the dependency that melee classes suffer though.

taurean430
06-14-2012, 08:07 AM
Best quote in the thread, and sums up my feeling about the one in three or four PUG's that tried my patience and goodwill to the limit.

That is EXACTLY why many divines, even those who love healing and the support role, and play that role extremely well, end up becoming EXTREMELY picky about the groups they join or simply go anonymous and run guild/channel/friends only.

I don't run anon. I simply say no. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement aside from that one bit.

A big part of this argument though lies in how melee behave. Not all, but most. The number of players I've encountered in game so far that feel it's my responsibility to lose all of my sp/wands/scrolls/pots while they do little to no visible damage is astounding. You look at the red bar and it's barely moved, yet you've spammed multiple cures/heals on them.

People have gotten upset with me for suggesting tactics/positioning/taking advantage of cc/off tanking when I have aggro/etc. When I feel my best option on my divines is to kill the mobs myself that's a problem.

I rolled up a 28pt F2P dwarven barbarian recently. He has zero twink gear, and uses what he can afford from questing. Even while running that toon and offering suggestions to other melee, I'm met with outright hostility at times, and heated debate during others. Yet, I don't die. I use CMW/CSW pots. Many people just don't get that standing in front of that Ogre/Troll while they are winding up is bad. They fully expect to be healed through every single mob they aggro that does this to them multiple times. It's a sad state of affairs.

I'm sorry to say that it's more effecient sp and time wise to kill it myself in some parties. Because it costs me very little to do so compared to what it takes to keep the autoattacking statue alive. The godsend actually has been that with the changes coming into play you see a lot of experienced players trying to get last minute TR's in. Those are by far much better groups to run with.

I feel this is something that should have been addressed years ago but remains ignored to this day. It's past due time that increased healing consumables were made available outside of the DDO store.

phalaeo
06-14-2012, 08:24 AM
I especially "enjoy" having people spam me tells to join their group when I am already in a quest, either with a party or soloing. I used to ask whether they really expected me to ditch my current quest just to run theirs, but too many said "yes"....

There really needs to be an option to block all incoming tells except from people in your party.

I used to ask as well, or even let them invite me and continue to go along with my business, but it got too annoying. Perhaps it is different on different servers, but it annoys the heck out of me on Argo.

phalaeo
06-14-2012, 08:29 AM
Quite honestly, I believe there are two ways to get people to play more healer-types.

1. Make the other players more self sufficient, or less whiny in pugs (kinda hard to implement, right? I.e. not a lot of control with this option.)

2. Give us more fun (but not necessarily OP) spells and tools to work with. More flexibility to pursue secondary roles.

For instance- make Life Magic and the crit lines 1AP per tier, like Arcanes are. Then we could freely invest in Smiting a little more. Give us cool new spells, like Divine Punishment. There's a ton more ideas to be inserted here.... they don't need to be OP to be effective, fun, and encourage diversity.

DeafeningWhisper
06-14-2012, 08:29 AM
And you shouldn't have to. Really it's bad design to have this dependecny built into these classes. They need to start with better more potent healing items avaliable to melee's.



Lower level Heal Amp
Feats that allow for Healing faster with the tools we have already like Quaff.
Better stronger healing Potions.
Boosting the Speed of Regen Items

There is no reason why a Melee should be so poorly provided for that they feel the need to be dependent upon a divine to nanny them. Both the Melee and the Divine get a portion of their gaming fun robbed from them in such a set up.

Exactly, and on the same token, a Melee player does not like the idea that they need to have a divine join the group to allow them to have any fun. That is why Vets with the funds and gear always play self sufficient melee builds, they would rather throw plat, and I mean just dump plat, gear and farming tine on their main caster to outfit their melee to they do not need to depend on some healer to enable them to have fun.

This dependency that Melee have needs to go away and Melee builds need to have self sufficiency as a class feature and mantra of the game itself.

Every vet, every TR, builds or is funded to the point to take care of themselves, so they can have fun, because that is the natural progression that the game is moving in, and Turbine needs to wake up and address this, support it and make it so that it is embraced by the new players coming to this game., otherwise there will be remain constant friction between melee who feel emasculated because they need to be healed the and divines feel chasten in such a role.

Good will comes from equal players meeting and having fun, dependency generates bitterness. Which is what these forums have in spades, and the only real solution is to remove the dependency that melee classes suffer though.

I play self-healers only, just because I freaking *HATE* having to burden someone into watching me play instead of playing.


I tried leveling a Barb and melee fighter, I couldn't get past lvl 7, the idea of having to not only drink pots like they're going out of style but also "need" healer at end game made my blood boil, those toons where quickly deleted.

Now I build splashed toons, with either high UMD or healing spells and I also build for versitality, my toons can provide dps as well as other things like trap skills, CC or buffs.

It's sad that a pure melee has to focus almost solely on dps/tank builds because their own self-healing is none existent. Only been able to play when someone deciedes to take you by the hand and kiss your boo-boos away is, well, insulting in my book.

Well insulting might be too hard a word, but yeah it's not "fun" that's for sure.

Sarisa
06-14-2012, 08:30 AM
I don't run anon. I simply say no. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement aside from that one bit.

I said become picky about your groups OR go anon.

Ungood
06-14-2012, 08:42 AM
Quite honestly, I believe there are two ways to get people to play more healer-types.

1. Make the other players more self sufficient, or less whiny in pugs (kinda hard to implement, right? I.e. not a lot of control with this option.)

This is very easy to put in, and already exists at the higher levels, they just need to have more trickle down, and this would actually fix the underlying problem. Nothing else will.

Ungood
06-14-2012, 04:15 PM
I play self-healers only, just because I freaking *HATE* having to burden someone into watching me play instead of playing.

And you are not alone in this. No melee feels good about needing a healer, they don't enjoy the dependency and nothing inhibits a players game enjoyment then needing to depend on someone else to enable it.

Which make no mistake is where most of the bitterness stems from, they don't want to be dependent but due to ridiculously poor development and continual design of the game, they remain so, thus they are unhappy at needing the "healer" there, then to have that healer given them an attitude and not do their "role" generates nothing but strife across the entire game and what has caused most of the issues we see on the forums today.

I'll tell you this, even a player who enjoys playing a "healer" is thankful for the chance to run in a group of self sufficient players and not need to worry about anyone else. It is uplifting and freeing to them. And I respect that feeling, and that freedom for both divines and melee's can be obtained IF they provide the means to melee players to not be shackled to a "healer" because that binding goes both ways.



I tried leveling a Barb and melee fighter, I couldn't get past lvl 7, the idea of having to not only drink pots like they're going out of style but also "need" healer at end game made my blood boil, those toons where quickly deleted.

Now I build splashed toons, with either high UMD or healing spells and I also build for versitality, my toons can provide dps as well as other things like trap skills, CC or buffs.

It's sad that a pure melee has to focus almost solely on dps/tank builds because their own self-healing is none existent. Only been able to play when someone deciedes to take you by the hand and kiss your boo-boos away is, well, insulting in my book.

Well insulting might be too hard a word, but yeah it's not "fun" that's for sure.

Disenchanting is what I would chose to describe that situation. We are playing a game where we are hero's our toons are to be the stuff of legend, not some sword swinger that needs a nurse maid.

While I am not asking that melee toons be give anything on a silver platter, I am asking that the means, methods and abilities be there from the start to develop a self sufficient nature in this game. Because when we all can take care of ourselves, we can group and play because we enjoy the game and the company of the other people in our group. not because we need some specific class make up to enable us to be able to function.

blerkington
06-14-2012, 07:42 PM
... A big part of this argument though lies in how melee behave. Not all, but most. ...

Hi,

I think this post really gets to the centre of the problem. More self-healing options for melee is one approach, but the amount of babysitting a melee requires often comes down to playstyle, more than gear and build.

If you don't play your melee tactically, but just wade in and grab as much aggro as you can, you can count on taking some serious damage in every encounter mid- to end-game. I think it's appropriate that can occur, because there should be risks, and it also contains a message for the player to take away from that about improving their style.

So is the issue here that the melee classes need more self-healing options, or that we just need to play them better? I'm not saying everyone should be a rockstar, just doing things that every thinking, competent player has within their control.

From what I see here and from my own experience healing, having to heal melees in raid settings is not an issue, nor is keeping an eye on a good group of them outside of raids, when they are making an effort to look after themselves through good play and topping themselves up out of their own pockets.

The real misery comes from poor treatment by other players, whether it's intentional because they are rude or because they don't know any better and have silly expectations about people babysitting them no matter what they do.

That seems like more of a social problem, which can be solved by education or avoidance depending on your inclination, rather than a reason to change the way the game works.

Thanks.

Ungood
06-14-2012, 08:41 PM
More self-healing options for melee is one approach. but the amount of babysitting a melee requires often comes down to playstyle, more than gear and build.

The amount of "babysitting" as you call that should be needed by any class should be no greater then zero.

Self-sufficiency is already only open to, what did you call them. "Rock Stars", as I said several times over, self-sufficiency of a melee build should not be something someone sets for their twinked to death alt or third life character.

And I'll explain this again, the lack of healing options open to a melee gives the players the impression that someone is supposed to take care of them, and that is the wrong impression to give anyone, as that reinforces or for players first time playing an MMO generates a "role" mentality that this game does not support for their divine classes. The only way to remove that impression is give them the means to tend to themselves from the start to the finish, and right now, the game seems actively adamant against providing such means. And that will forever cause problems and issues.

No one likes needing help, or being unable to play, no group wants to wait for a "healer" and as it stands the view of the divine players is that they don't want to join a group that Needs a "healer". So we have a denifinite problem that steps specifuclaly from the lack of self healing options open to the melee classes.

There are only two actual solutions, the first is make Divines and Melee totally interdependent, and thus everyone is hapless and unhappy, -or- make them mutually independent, which the option that would honesly resolve and solve the issue with everyone coming out with the freedom and ability to enjoy that game that they sincerely want and deserve.

DeafeningWhisper
06-14-2012, 09:25 PM
The amount of "babysitting" as you call that should be needed by any class should be no greater then zero.

Self-sufficiency is already only open to, what did you call them. "Rock Stars", as I said several times over, self-sufficiency of a melee build should not be something someone sets for their twinked to death alt or third life character.

And I'll explain this again, the lack of healing options open to a melee gives the players the impression that someone is supposed to take care of them, and that is the wrong impression to give anyone, as that reinforces or for players first time playing an MMO generates a "role" mentality that this game does not support for their divine classes. The only way to remove that impression is give them the means to tend to themselves from the start to the finish, and right now, the game seems actively adamant against providing such means. And that will forever cause problems and issues.

No one likes needing help, or being unable to play, no group wants to wait for a "healer" and as it stands the view of the divine players is that they don't want to join a group that Needs a "healer". So we have a denifinite problem that steps specifuclaly from the lack of self healing options open to the melee classes.

There are only two actual solutions, the first is make Divines and Melee totally interdependent, and thus everyone is hapless and unhappy, -or- make them mutually independent, which the option that would honesly resolve and solve the issue with everyone coming out with the freedom and ability to enjoy that game that they sincerely want and deserve.

A healer should be boon to a party, not a necessity.

Adding healing pots (make them favor rewards of some kind, 150 thou not 400) with base 50-75 would go a long way to help melees be more self-sufficent.

Right now it's Silver Flame pots or yell "heal" for no UMD/blue bar melees.

Ungood
06-14-2012, 11:43 PM
A healer should be boon to a party, not a necessity.

I would like to correct this. a Divine should be a boon to the party, a healer should not need to exist.

While I am in favor of adding more healing potions to the game, add them in as favor rewards, and such, there needs to be intrinsic abilities added to the melee classes that make them self sufficient that send a clear and concise message that self sufficiency is the nature of this game.

That comes from Feats like Quaff (Which allows the use of more then one potion at a time), or have Die Hard have a regen effect to it. That comes from there being methods and means open and even thrust upon the melee at the very start of the game that they can, and should tend to their own needs. But more then that, the game needs to provide them the tools to do so from the start to the end.

But providing boons and ability to melee classes seems to be against the very capacity of the development staff, as I recall their blundering with trying to revise Madstone boots, and fixing them while all they did was propose to transform them into some abomination.

So while it is self evident what needs to be done to make a change in the outlook of players and how their interaction dynamic, I know that nothing will be done that will actually address this issue or fix the problem.

Such is a sad fate when the solution to the issue is painfully glaring obvious, but knowing it will be ignored in favor some band-aid fix that will do nothing to resolve the cause of the problems and thus it will continue to fester.

The thing is, there is nothing I can do about it. I have stopped playing pure melee characters, because the designers honestly can't seem to do a single update without nerfing them in some manner or another, thus, while I know what it would take to move this game forward to enhance the freedom and thus the enjoyment of it's player base, I know that I may as well be speaking into the wind for all the good it will do in the end.

Airgeadlam
06-15-2012, 05:24 AM
And you are not alone in this. No melee feels good about needing a healer

Well, then tell all those bonnie melees in your server to come to Thelanis, please. Here you will find melees that not only feel good needing a healer, but entitled to have a personal healer and healer only as well.


A big part of this argument though lies in how melee behave. Not all, but most.


People have gotten upset with me for suggesting tactics/positioning/taking advantage of cc/off tanking when I have aggro/etc.


I rolled up a 28pt F2P dwarven barbarian recently. He has zero twink gear, and uses what he can afford from questing. Even while running that toon and offering suggestions to other melee, I'm met with outright hostility at times, and heated debate during others. Yet, I don't die. I use CMW/CSW pots. Many people just don't get that standing in front of that Ogre/Troll while they are winding up is bad. They fully expect to be healed through every single mob they aggro that does this to them multiple times. It's a sad state of affairs.

This. There are certain melees out there that even with a Heal SLA, infinite uses and 1 sec cooldwon will wait for you on a divine to Heal them. No matter what options you bring to the table if the player has no intention to use them. CSW potions are enough in all the low level content, yet people don't buy them (and useful but slow resource on mid-high level). Resist 20 potions are avaliable at lvl7 yet they will take all the incoming elemental damage waiting for you to throw a resist (I lost count on how many times I casted a Resist Acid only because I noticed the damage ticks, not because they told me they were suffering that damage). Lost count of monks who never dare to use the Healing curse + Healing Ki (or wholeness of body, for that matter). Not that they have good healing amp or anything, right? Tell some barbs out there about that healing amp! "I have loads of Hp, I don't need it. Heal me" (True story!).

Problem is not the people who's not self-sufficient. Problem is people don't care about self sufficiency if they see a blur bar at their side. Period.


Self-sufficiency is already only open to, what did you call them. "Rock Stars", as I said several times over, self-sufficiency of a melee build should not be something someone sets for their twinked to death alt or third life character.

Not true. You don't need all the gear to stay alive. Taurean has explained about his new experience with a totally new barbarian. And he does not die, right? The toon is totally new, with no twink gear and only using what drops on chests.

Take a look, at low levels. CLW dropping on crates/barrels/boxes. Fresh off the boat players, no gear at all. Do they pick even ONE of those potions? Hell, no, that's why we have a cleric in the party.

Look at those fancy (yet ugly) h-elves out there. Fighter, level 20. And oh, yes, rogue dilettante. 3d6 is sooooooo uber DPZZZ!!! And of course, you can't even think on getting the cleric one. That's a waste, right? Want to know how many times I've been told to use Lockania's free feat change to get rogue dilettante instead? Want to know how many people told me, kind of exact words, "Man, using scrolls is a drain, you'll get poor in no time"? Want to know how many of those people expect the cleric/fvs/bard in party to drain their resources in potions/wands/scrolls without hesitation?

No, self-sufficiency is not just about twink gear, and past lives, and having 41 UMD or being a caster. Is about knowing what you're doing: When to fight, when to retreat, when to draw aggro and when to let others do it. And of course, be willing to sacrifice some "UBERDPZZZ!" if needed.

As an example, I'm doing some TR-Trains on my guild. "Twink gear! TR!" you can say, but no always. I sometimes bring a fresh lvl1 toon, 32pt build that's true, to the group. Last TR train, our "healer"was me, on a non twinked warchanter. Songs, buffs.. but healing? I used potions like crazy for most of content, so they did. And we made it to 20.

Current TR train, well, this time I'm using a TR toon as well. Since he was a WF FvS on his previous life, I had only WF gear to twink. Asked the guy who was gonna bring a FvS to the group "Man, would you mind if I do this? I want this barbarian life, and this and that". He said yes, so bingo bango, WF Barbarian. The divine's most feared. And... circumstances: Our healer was not there when we started. "Uh oh", I thought "If he can make it to the group, I'm gonna be a bit screwed". Well, what is done is done, they say, so I just adjusted tactics. DR>DPS. Healing amp>DPS. And I keep on killing stuff, and I'm not dieing (lvl18 so far). Am I elite? No, for sure. Do I have all the twink items? No. Do I have (forgot!) silver flame pots? No. UMD? No. Repair Serious Damage potions! And for most of the content, and thanks to the enemy AI, I can round in circles followed by a bunch of enemies and drink some potions, back to fight, rinse and repeat. Takes a bit longer? Sure. Do I die? No.

Player mentality. What we need to change is the player's mentality. Without that, no matter what options you offer for self healing, they will never use them.


To the OP: No, clerics and favored souls don't need more power. Give me a cleric who can kill epic bosses in one hit, and I still won't heal the stupid barbarian pugger and his uberzdpz! It is not that healing is expensive: auras and bursts are free, so the fvs capstone is. It is not that is not fun: It's only not fun when that is the only you can do (personal opinion, of course). The problem is not the class, or any other class. Is the other people.

Arkenvis
06-15-2012, 07:06 AM
In regards to greater melee self-sufficiency, I would like to put forth a suggestion that doesn't require taking a feat or grinding favor, and adds a reason for people to consider two of the most useless skills in game: Alter the Heal/Repair skills/kits to recover a percentage of a character's health over a reasonably short period of time. A bonus to the skill could provide greater benefit, though to keep wands/scrolls/potions in play, perhaps using a kit should have a short activation time that can be interrupted without consuming the kit.

Ungood
06-15-2012, 07:41 AM
This. There are certain melees out there that even with a Heal SLA, infinite uses and 1 sec cooldown will wait for you on a divine to Heal them.

I believe that this is a totally fallacy, and that most players and play styles are nothing more then the byproduct of the system that spawned them, a system that started them out dependent upon a "healer" and they by no other choice embraced what was imposed upon them by the game mechanic.

If the game mechanic changed they too would change with it. Players, all of them are products of what the system crates. If the game by design had self sufficiency built in then players would develop and embrace a self-sufficient mentality.

But right now, the system is designed that to be sel -sufficnt on a melee requires a vast amount of favor grinding, gear acculimation and near endless plat funds. In this regard the system while putting the ability to be self-sufficient there for melee, has made the task very daunting and thus puts forth the message that they do not want this for their melee classes.

In the same regard, if a divine needs to max House D favor, need a barrage of "Damage Amp Items" and spend anywhere from 5 to 20K plat per instance just to be able swing a weapon with any capacity functioning at less then 50% of what a melee could do no matter how good they got, while yes, there would be some melee capable divines in the game, rightly so very proud of their accomplishment, but by and large the vast population of them would not peruse such a direction simply because from the starting gate, the game seems to be stacked against you and this not only come to accept that the melee classes better be swinging the weapons for them, but come to demand it.

In a simplified version, most players by and large simply want to play the game not have to play the system.

Case in point: You said:

Resist 20 potions are avaliable at lvl7 yet they will take all the incoming elemental damage waiting for you to throw a resist (I lost count on how many times I casted a Resist Acid only because I noticed the damage ticks, not because they told me they were suffering that damage).

Ponder this, I have to go shipping, stock inventory, take up inventory space, (5 slots for resist pots, which Ironically my fighter did deal with, along with cure blindness, remove curse/disease, lesser restoration, cure light and cure serious pots, and Haste/Rage pots, and that was just the generic stock stuff). In doing this, it is tedious, I have to shell out plat, inventory space, and hot bars for on my best day, as the levels get higher will be inferior to something that another class gets for free. It glares of being a sink, even a waste of time for a melee to have to make that investment when almost any caster can cast resist a superior (30 at level 11) with little to no effort their part. The game simply does not pull forward as the game progresses, it does not offer 30 resist pots, it does not offer restoration pots, it does not provide the means for a melee to really take care of themselves. It makes it very clear that anything they get, on their best days, will be an inferior product, case in point, no pot in the game will last as long as casters using the spell. I use haste posts like mad, I drink them like water because they last 30 seconds, a caster can drop a 4 min haste on my melee, if I have a caster in the group that can cast a single spell on the entire group that lasts 4 min, or I could chug 8 pots, it seems rather ridiculous to conceive that anyone should be chugging the 8 pots (Unless they ran off not waiting for buffs, but that is their own fault then :D).

But, looking at this, and a great point you have brought up about resist, I will admit, most melee never dealt with pots to take care of that part of their build, However,when ship buffs came in, everyone jumped all over them.

It became the norm for Everyone to grab the resist buffs and anything else they can on their way to the quest. Suddenly, no one was asking the casters for resist buffs. Suddenly the entire mentality of the game world changed, everyone is now covering their own in that regard. No one is asking or demanding that the casters put resist on them, and the old days of waiting for a dozen or so buffs to be cast is gone, in it's place, players tending to their OWN buffs is born. A minor first step in the system where players were given easy to acquire, renewable and cost effect means for them to tend to their own needs and, lo and behold, not only did they use them, they embraced the very idea of taking care of themselves, no longer did anyone expect the "casters" to take care of resists.

End result, Casters no longer feel burdened with spending 10 min at the start of the quest buffing everyone, asking if everyone has resists, or any of that, the melee tend to their own, because it is easy and available and suddenly it is expected of them and they embrace that, so much so, that the typical group greeting now is "Getting ship buffs"

So great example, When Turbine put in some convoluted system of using inferior products like pots, getting resist was a problem. They make easy to acquire, cost effective, system that provides a superior product and the vast population puts using them into their questing routine and the issue with even wondering if players have resist up is gone. When I started casters (Myself included) would either just toss resists on the melee or ask if anyone needs any, some people did use items after all.

Ship buffs changed the game in the world of self sufficiency, with them everyone is expected to have buffed before they hit the quest and lo and behold (on my sever at least) they do. In fact ship buffs are a great example of how the population wants to be self sufficient, enjoys it even, from casters to melee, players enjoy being able to to tend to their own needs in an effective way, and when that means is put out in easy to obtain manners it becomes expected of them.

I'll give an example: I was in a group a while back when ship buffs were new, and someone joined the party and said the typical greeting on my server "getting ship buffs brt"

One of the other players made a snide remark about not needing ship buffs, well, I was not bowing down to cast resists on them simply because they did not opt to take care of themselves. :D in fact, it seemed the rest of the party seemed unamused that anyone would actively refuse to use a means made open to them to take care of their own.

So. Seeing how fast the entire game mentality changes when players are given the means to take care of their own, I have to disagree about the issue being players like the idea of needing a healer.

I want to express this as well, no matter what some other players have done with dragon marks, or UMD on other races, or anything of that liking, there is not a single viable motive that a class should be required to give up any part of it core nature in any extent to be self-sufficient, otherwise, it sends a clear message that the game is against this. If a class has to give up a core aspect of it's class to obtain something, is a mechanical means by the game design itself that the class is not supposed to have that feature.

Case in point, a divine can swing a weapon with zero impact on their ability to heal, ergo, a Divine can melee. If a Divine had to reduce their ability to heal by some margin to be able to use a weapon, that would have a significant impact on the population and what they felt about the diversity of the divine class. For example, I seldom see a Elf FvS using a Great Sword, yet I see a WF FvS using great swords all the time. I would wager that is because the elf would need to give up a feat or take a splash to be able to use that great sword where the WF does not, thus all of a sudden the rules change in the game.

Sure, some players do it, I see players that splash cleric into the Fighter as well, but it is uncommon and they make trade offs to do so, and more often then not, they are TRed, or twinked ridiculously. I mean honestly Imagine if any FvS needed to splash at least one level of "Melee" to use any weapon. Now the rules the change again, and suddenly, melee FvS is not as freely built as it was, while people would do it, it would change their perception of the population on the mentality behind doing it. Suddenly there is a cost involved.

In this regard, since we have already seen that if the means are put there, the masses of players will use them. We have seen how much a game changer ship buffs are, and the population uses them from the low levels on up, because they matter from the low levels on up.

So, any belief that the problem is the player base,or that players will not change and embrace revision if it provided has been proven false by the birth of ship buffs, while there are always some hold outs they are the exception, not the rule.

Airgeadlam
06-15-2012, 08:45 AM
But right now, the system is designed that to be sel -sufficnt on a melee requires a vast amount of favor grinding, gear acculimation and near endless plat funds. In this regard the system while putting the ability to be self-sufficient there for melee, has made the task very daunting and thus puts forth the message that they do not want this for their melee classes.


Ponder this, I have to go shipping, stock inventory, take up inventory space, (5 slots for resist pots, which Ironically my fighter did deal with, along with cure blindness, remove curse/disease, lesser restoration, cure light and cure serious pots, and Haste/Rage pots, and that was just the generic stock stuff). In doing this, it is tedious, I have to shell out plat, inventory space, and hot bars for on my best day

Somehow, it is quite different when my divine stocks on all these just in case, right? To me is a holiday with little ponies and fun and candy. Of course an extended haste from a caster is better than chug a pot every 30 secs, so are the resists. But what is better? Nothing or something? If you run out of ship buffs, or the casters' buff, or die and raise at a shrine with no nearby caster... Better to have a frigging Resist 20 potion, or just wait till someone comes to rebuff you? Chug some pots, or stand iddle at 5% of your health till some divine gets to you? Radiant aura is nice for healing, buf if aura is not there? What if cleric is incapped, or dead? No selfhealing whatsoever? Since it costs plat and takes time, you better die too than heal yourself. Well, up to you.

Self sufficiency is not about being able to do everything all the time, is about taking some time to cover your bases in case there are no better options avaliable. "Oh, oh, but refilling 800hp via CSW potions is slow" (And this at 20, I see plenty of people not using pots at levels in which a single CSW potions = 50% of their health). Yes. "And a divine can cast a Heal and be done with it". Again, yes. But if the divine is not there... Better slow than no health. But no, of course. Stocking on potions just in case is "tedious" and "expensive". Please, tell me which vendor gives stocks of Heal scrolls for free if you're a divine, because I missed it when I replenish my stock for raids and epics.


However,when ship buffs came in, everyone jumped all over them.


In fact ship buffs are a great example of how the population wants to be self sufficient, enjoys it even, from casters to melee, players enjoy being able to to tend to their own needs in an effective way, and when that means is put out in easy to obtain manners it becomes expected of them.

Oh, sure the ship buffs. That actually is against self sufficiency. Before ship buffs you knew how valuable those resists and buffs are. Now new people took them as granted. Ship buffs trivialize difficulties. And then, if they die... hop! They have no means or intention to do something about it, if I die I have someone to cover them for me, right?

And I know plenty of guilds in which ship buffs are afforded by leader/officers, with no contribution (monetary) of the members. So most of those "Oh, I want to be self sufficient by using ship buffs" use them because, yes, they are free. Add a price to use the shrine, and see how many people will complaint. But again, is of course nice if the plat sink is on the divine's side.


I'll give an example: I was in a group a while back when ship buffs were new, and someone joined the party and said the typical greeting on my server "getting ship buffs brt"

One of the other players made a snide remark about not needing ship buffs, well, I was not bowing down to cast resists on them simply because they did not opt to take care of themselves.


Because, of course... No ship buffs = Not taking care of oneself. Not true. I can take care of myself on my melees with no buffs, ocasionally a DW if any divine is avaliable. If not, well, lesser restore pots, restoration scrolls, heal scrolls, resist wands/potions. See? No need for ship buffs. Those are nice, but not a neccessity.


I want to express this as well, no matter what some other players have done with dragon marks, or UMD on other races, or anything of that liking, there is not a single viable motive that a class should be required to give up any part of it core nature in any extent to be self-sufficient

No need to. You can have plenty DPS with a melee and be able to cover the most important bases. Of course, if you want to. What's the core nature of a melee? Inflict loads of damage? Resiste enemy attacks, acting as a wall to weaker members? Tanking the hardest bosses? You can do that, and still be self-sufficient. There's plenty ways to do so. Problem? You must know them.

Here I will grant, it should be better explained at new people when they create their toons. The information provided upon character creation (and the horrible predefined paths) is not enough, so is the info provided in the character sheet.


Case in point, a divine can swing a weapon with zero impact on their ability to heal, ergo, a Divine can melee. If a Divine had to reduce their ability to heal by some margin to be able to use a weapon, that would have a significant impact on the population and what they felt about the diversity of the divine class.

Divine can swing a weapon =/= divine can melee. My wizard can use daggers, and I'm not trying to stab my enemies. Do you? You can melee and heal, but then you give up the other "core aspect" of the class. Offensive casting. My WF FvS can melee (not as well as any decent melee) but his offensive spells are a freaking joke, because of the dumped wisdom. And I could choose Human and Evoker instead, but then my melee would be non existant. Do you play divines at all? Because if you're gonna tell me you can master all three aspects (meleed, offensive casting and healing) easy as pie, then I want to know why.

FvS 20, human. 32 point build (just ignoring the 28pt builds):

15/8/14/8/18/10.... Level ups into wisdom if you want to have decent DCs. So your STR will be 15+2 tome+2 ship buff+6 item+(for the sake of it)3 exc. 28 STR. Are you gonna tell me this STR will cut it at lvl20? And that including ship buffs (which if you die, say bye to them). +3 exc (which not everyone has) and +2 tome that you can or can not get. This only talking about stats. You need to adjust feats as well. Can you afford melee feats into that build, if you want to be an offensive caster?

Short answer: No. You can't do everything on a divine and be a master in all aspects. You have to adjust and pick what it suits you the most, and build accordingly. If you want to melee, you know you will have to do sacrifices. And if you want to cast, you know you must forget the impulse to swing things at enemies, because they will laugh at you.

Same goes for fighters, per say. You can max out STR and CON, enough DEX for TWF if need be, and then dump everything else. You can opt for not buying any pot, ever. And you can play reckelessly no matter the situation.

Or you can opt to splash to rogue levels, or use the h-elf dillys, or splash other class, buy potions, play smart... And you will be able to deal enough DPS, and have enough HP too. It is up to you, you have choices now.

Better healing options for melee? Sure. But I insist, only those who actually care about using what the game offers will use them. The rest will still be running around yelling "HjEALZZ mE!".

aerosole
06-15-2012, 11:31 AM
I believe that this is a totally fallacy, and that most players and play styles are nothing more then the byproduct of the system that spawned them, a system that started them out dependent upon a "healer" and they by no other choice embraced what was imposed upon them by the game mechanic.

If the game mechanic changed they too would change with it. Players, all of them are products of what the system crates. If the game by design had self sufficiency built in then players would develop and embrace a self-sufficient mentality.


Have to absolute agree with your observation that players are products of what the system creates. And I believe this is precisely what Airgeadlam is describing too.

DDO offers players a choice the very first moment you create a character. Play a barb with high dps and no self-healing, or play other melees such as a ranger or a paladin with self healing. The game offers this choice. How do players take it?

It bears repeating that players' attitudes among the melee classes, in particular, towards barbarians compared to rangers/paladins sends a very clear signal. Dps is always preferred over self-sufficiency.

You mentioned about what the system creates. On live, DDO creates an endgame system where self-sufficiency barely matters. All that matters is for the melee to deal as much dps as possible while the mob is being held. Every second counts. Every dps counts. When the CC fails, the big chunks of incoming damage means its more important to kill the mob fast, rather than to try to heal yourself. Hence the system encourage the reliance on healers. Ability to self-heal? Not relevant when the mob is being held, and not relevant when that hp you got back with a heal scroll just got wiped away in 3 seconds flat as the mob wails on you.

And this attitude trickles now to the new players. What happens when a new player joins the game, and everyone in the guild tells her that self-healing is irrelevant in endgame, only dps matters? I think we can guess, given the prevalent attitudes about the different melee classes.

Dps is king, and for the newer player, with limited resources and knowledge of the game, given the choice between dps or self-sufficiency, will simply pick the former. And some will do so almost exclusively, and that's where the pigeon-hole syndrome begins. Melees dps, healers heal, and its a downward spiral from there, leading to the healer dependency you so keenly observed.

So yes, "players are products of what the system creates" - this couldn't be more true. But unless DDO changes how some things work, having more self-sufficient options won't affect player attitudes. The system works as a whole; the game won't suddenly change for players who care about dps only just because more healing is available. Besides, as it is, we already have 200 hp SF pots that is not hard to get with the easy u13 quests addiing to SF favor, but my observations in game suggests many players don't think much of SF pots. They certainly are useful, but dps is the only consideration for such players.

The good news is, epics are changing, AC now matters, and self-sufficiency may make more sense over pure dps post u14. Melees dependency on divines will be reduced at least on casual/normal difficulties. This may start a change in player's attitudes. Or maybe not, we'll see.




Look at those fancy (yet ugly) h-elves out there. Fighter, level 20. And oh, yes, rogue dilettante. 3d6 is sooooooo uber DPZZZ!!! And of course, you can't even think on getting the cleric one. That's a waste, right? Want to know how many times I've been told to use Lockania's free feat change to get rogue dilettante instead? Want to know how many people told me, kind of exact words, "Man, using scrolls is a drain, you'll get poor in no time"? Want to know how many of those people expect the cleric/fvs/bard in party to drain their resources in potions/wands/scrolls without hesitation?
...

Player mentality. What we need to change is the player's mentality. Without that, no matter what options you offer for self healing, they will never use them.


Yes, it's the player's attitude that is the heart of the matter. You exactly described the attitude of the majority of the playerbase. DPS DPS DPS!!! Heals scrolls aren't really expensive (yes, they aren't cheap either but any lv20 should be able to afford them). They provide a good source of self-healing that is already available in the current game. But (almost) every player agrees that 3d6 sneak attack damage trumps it hands-down. :D

Rhysem
06-15-2012, 12:44 PM
In regards to greater melee self-sufficiency, I would like to put forth a suggestion that doesn't require taking a feat or grinding favor, and adds a reason for people to consider two of the most useless skills in game: Alter the Heal/Repair skills/kits to recover a percentage of a character's health over a reasonably short period of time. A bonus to the skill could provide greater benefit, though to keep wands/scrolls/potions in play, perhaps using a kit should have a short activation time that can be interrupted without consuming the kit.

Only if they also include the "hug yourself" animation from asheron's call. If so then /signed.

Orratti
06-15-2012, 01:04 PM
It is too unnecessarily stressful and basically inconvenient to pug a divine. There is no fix for that but this would do it for getting that divine willing to pike/heal a pug.

Remove the sp cost for cures and heals

Ungood
06-15-2012, 02:00 PM
Better healing options for melee? Sure. But I insist, only those who actually care about using what the game offers will use them.

Tel you what,lets put in the better self sufficiency options and see what happens.

I noticed a game wide change about players tending their own buffs when ship buffs came out. I believe the same will happen if Turbine puts out viable self-sufficiency for all the classes. The players will listen and they will respond.


Dps is king, and for the newer player, with limited resources and knowledge of the game, given the choice between dps or self-sufficiency

I agree with you as well, a player will always want to put for the core nature of their class even if the game at end is horribly warped. However, what I am trying to express that it is poor design to force a player to have to make that choice.

Now, case in point, when I started this game, my very first character was a Pally, the raw unkillable nature of the class was what attracted me, and I hacked my way to 20th, starting player, I never questioned if I had to heal myself, because I was given lay hands and heal spells, thus I knew I was expected to heal myself. I am at best a moderate player, but I never waited for a healer, I never felt like I needed a nurse maid, I loved my pally (On his 4th life now :D) and I would see other players try to keep up with me, and they would just fall to the wayside, I was a dwarf, so I took d-axes, and I just kept on hacking.

I will say this, I did suffer my last 7 or so levels with the soul-stones in my back pack telling me I was a gimp for not being top DPS, but as the saying goes "your DPS is 0 when your dead"


we already have 200 hp SF pots that is not hard to get with the easy u13 quests addiing to SF favor, but my observations in game suggests many players don't think much of SF pots. They certainly are useful, but dps is the only consideration for such players.

The main objection to SF pots that most melee have (Myself included in this) is the fact that they give -10 to saves and all stats (not Con), and if you use the 200, you take a movement neg as well. Which makes using them an unpleasant option.

What would be an ideal solution is to test the theory.

What would be be a great way to kick off how well players can adapt is as opposed to revising SF pots, make a competitive Pot and see what happens. My idea would be simple.



Pick a House, like House J (That has a favor reward that almost no one uses)
add in a vendor that sells Special Healing Pots that heal for 100 and 250 (Same as SF) however, the pots remove casting ability for 60 seconds (Like a Madstone Rage Effect) but do not affect a players stats in any way. The 250 Also have the moment negs to them.
Observe what happens.


They have nothing to lose by doing this, nothing at all. Yet they won't put in more options, they won't put in diverse options, they won't even try new ideas to expand the game in this avenue.

They put in repulsive options like SF pots, and wonder why players tell other players to not bother with them.

Sarisa
06-15-2012, 02:28 PM
The main objection to SF pots that most melee have (Myself included in this) is the fact that they give -10 to saves and all stats (not Con), and if you use the 200, you take a movement neg as well. Which makes using them an unpleasant option.

Specifically why those are obnoxious to non-Barbarians and non-Fighters...
-10 CHA is the loss of 5 Turns on a Paladin, the loss of 5 to saves on top of the other stat losses, and the loss of Smite damage.
-10 DEX is the loss of 5 Reflex saves on almost all classes, which can be a horrible thing to have happen in many areas.
-10 WIS is the loss of 5 Will saves, which while buffs handle MOST Will effects, it doesn't handle all. It's also very punishing to Rangers and Paladins since they most likely will be unable to use spell healing (due to no longer having enough WIS to cast their spells) to complement it, and punishing to Monks due to the loss of AC and reducing many of their DC's.
-10 STR is the loss of 5 damage and 5 to-hit, which is a much larger issue in the current game to anyone who is not a Barbarian or Fighter. The to-hit may or may not affect you post-update, depending on where you fall on the "curve".

Add on to the cost of slotting or augmentation (or tomes) to make sure you're over 11 in each stat when you use them. Add on to the very high risk of becoming easily helpless when faced with certain stat drain effects that work at INFINITE range (Quori Ego Whip), and several other weapon or mob effects (Flayers, Kai-Teng, Devourer of Dreams, post-update Disease and Poison, Touch of Idiocy, Feebleminded, Exhaustion/Fatigue's DEX component).

Silver Flame potions are excellent if built for it, AND you are a class that doesn't suffer as much from the loss of -10 to all non-CON stats like a Fighter or a Barbarian. The other classes all have much lower primary stat capabilities, and also tend to have a bit more "MAD" about needing more stats than just max STR, high CON, rest to hit 11 with tomes/equipment.

Ungood
06-16-2012, 04:46 PM
Silver Flame Pots are the proverbial parable of Giving someone Filthy Water to Drink, and if they are Thirsty Enough, they will drink it,

Ergo the only classes in the game desperate enough to deal with those abhorrent pots are fighters and barbs, and the only builds able to earnest handle them are TS super-builds that can handle the stat damage.

It is just that those abhorrent pots are their only real option currenlty for self sufficeny. That should be a the huge sign that something more needs to be done as the game is painfully lacking in providing any real means of self-sufficiency for their melee classes.

More needs to be provided and ideas and beliefs like those pots do not hurt barbs and fighters as much as other classes needs to be taken out back and put to rest with extreme prejudice.

Progressive positive changes need to be added, that augment and provide for the classes, not these archaic ideas that tear down the class in the name of providing a modicum of self-sufficiency at ridiculous costs. That continually sends the WRONG message to players when you want to inspire them towards self-sufficiency.

Sgt_Hart
06-18-2012, 01:05 AM
I would like to take a moment and explain that when I said give, I only meant that such a feat would be available from the list of feats they could select. I have no inhibitions about making an Echo's of Life feat, It was more a personal vision of something that would be am Upgrade to the Die Hard feat, where you take care of yourself and click back 5% of your life every 30 Seconds as long as you are conscious, and not under some negative spell effect like cursed wounds, mummy rot, etc.

In fact, I have no limitations or inhibitions about allowing this feat to be given to all melee classes. Maybe even have it get an enhancement line to augment it faster and further, or even allow it to be used to have a renewing effect that allows a person with this feat to tend another player and restore 10% of their health over the next 30 seconds, useable once a day or renewing like US is, once every 600 seconds.

Didn't mean to nitpick but yeah.. Paladins.. so shafted already..

Regarding mechanic's, maybe have it function correctly with a players healing enhancements/items so if a pally/ranger has devotion points spent, they see a decent return on it.

<WeirdThinking>Giving it a decent cooldown(say 1 minute) with soem frontloaded healing could create a very interesting ability IMO. Say it functions as a HoT, with Decrementing dice per tick. Just for ***** and giggles (CharacterLevel)D(CharacterLevel) decrementing the dice(first) number by say.. 2, while dice amount remains static. Tick it at say.. every 6 seconds..

On live.. that'd be
20d20 (20-400) Mid range of 200
18d20 (18-360) 180
16d20 (16-320) 160
14d20 (14-280) 140
12d20 (12-240) 120
10d20 (10-200) 100
8d20 (8-160) 80
6d20 (6-120) 60
4d20 (4-80) 40
2d20 (2-40) 20
n/a

But at 6 seconds ticks, and 10 of them, that's a minute..

110 absolute minimum healing. 2200 max base numbers. 1100 midrange. over a minute. so on average(1100/60).. 18hp a second.

Of course, front loaded, so its a viable thing to hit in mid fight when you see your at "EEK!" hit points. Further, while this gives a lot of healing(I haven't done devotion item/enhancement math on these numbers), it doesn't do ti at the cost of trivializing divines. To whit: Your not gonna see a No-healer VoD with this, unless you have 6+ viable tanks so they can all take turns.

Slap on even a 2 minute (Mind you, this will take a minute to run its course)cooldown between uses, and you have melee's that can manage each encounter, while forced to slow down a bit, or alternate, compared to an "Ideal" group.
</WeirdThinking>

Anyway, sorry for tangent, but, yeah.. given some thought to the matter of how to make melee's viable in combat while still preserving the Blitzkrieg play-style most melee's seem to like.

blerkington
06-20-2012, 07:54 PM
Silver Flame Pots are the proverbial parable of Giving someone Filthy Water to Drink, and if they are Thirsty Enough, they will drink it,

Ergo the only classes in the game desperate enough to deal with those abhorrent pots are fighters and barbs, and the only builds able to earnest handle them are TS super-builds that can handle the stat damage.



Hi again,

I think the position you're taking is a little extreme here. The temporary stat drain caused by SF potions means you need an 11 or better in each of your stats to avoid incapacitation. Given that includes bonuses from stat items, you don't need to be a "super build" to reach that very low benchmark.

It's just something to take into account when building and gearing your character. There are opportunity costs. If you go full-bore dps then there will be costs in other areas.

Thanks.

Ungood
06-20-2012, 10:02 PM
Hi again,

I think the position you're taking is a little extreme here. The temporary stat drain caused by SF potions means you need an 11 or better in each of your stats to avoid incapacitation. Given that includes bonuses from stat items, you don't need to be a "super build" to reach that very low benchmark.

It's just something to take into account when building and gearing your character. There are opportunity costs. If you go full-bore dps then there will be costs in other areas.

Thanks.

It is not simply the stat drain to those "Other" stats, which seems to be enough of a deterrent that no other class other then Fighters and Barbs will touch the stuff, which should have been an glaring indication of what you are really getting if everyone else thinks it's not worth it, it is the overall effect on the primary stats as well.

Ponder this:

Case in Point: 10 Reflex Save, 10 Fort Save, 10 Will save, Which means for most melee builds, if the mobs cast it, you will not save against it.

Now to be honest, the only classes in the game that can build up the saves to take kind of penalty and still have a chance keep resisting are Pallies and Monks, and they won't touch the stuff, and rightfully so, you would have to be desperate to consider taking those losses to your saves, especially mid fight, and if there were casters, it's a downhill option, unless you are a TR geared to the nines and have all the items to invalidate your need to makes saves at all.

Another point: 10 to main stats, ergo, Str, that is anywhere from -5 to -60 on a hit, pretty invalidate the entire use of the power attack feat, which now gives you -10 to hit and the same damage if you did not use either the feat or the pot.

For a build that may be all out DPS that is vicious blow to their damage output.

And lets be honest, no barb or fighter farmed for months, even years to get all the gear they need to be max str to have 10 points robbed from them simply for a small iota of survivability.

So, think about it. SF pots are used to survive, but they ensure that the character will never make a save, so incoming damage from all spells increases, AC drops at least 5 points, so Incoming Damage from melee attacks may increase (will increase with the expansion), Overall damage output will decrease (Less Damage per hit and reduction in To-Hit means potentially more misses as well/will be an absolute increase in miss chances with the expansion) so the fights last longer and thus take even more resources to complete.

When this is a melees only option, they really have no option but demand healing from other classes if they wish to survive, and dependency can sometimes build bitterness, especially when someone playing a fighter or a barb sees that they need a healer, but the "healers" don't need them.

HatsuharuZ
06-20-2012, 11:05 PM
It is not simply the stat drain to those "Other" stats, which seems to be enough of a deterrent that no other class other then Fighters and Barbs will touch the stuff, which should have been an glaring indication of what you are really getting if everyone else thinks it's not worth it, it is the overall effect on the primary stats as well.

Ponder this:

Case in Point: 10 Reflex Save, 10 Fort Save, 10 Will save, Which means for most melee builds, if the mobs cast it, you will not save against it.

Now to be honest, the only classes in the game that can build up the saves to take kind of penalty and still have a chance keep resisting are Pallies and Monks, and they won't touch the stuff, and rightfully so, you would have to be desperate to consider taking those losses to your saves, especially mid fight, and if there were casters, it's a downhill option, unless you are a TR geared to the nines and have all the items to invalidate your need to makes saves at all.

Another point: 10 to main stats, ergo, Str, that is anywhere from -5 to -60 on a hit, pretty invalidate the entire use of the power attack feat, which now gives you -10 to hit and the same damage if you did not use either the feat or the pot.

For a build that may be all out DPS that is vicious blow to their damage output.

And lets be honest, no barb or fighter farmed for months, even years to get all the gear they need to be max str to have 10 points robbed from them simply for a small iota of survivability.

So, think about it. SF pots are used to survive, but they ensure that the character will never make a save, so incoming damage from all spells increases, AC drops at least 5 points, so Incoming Damage from melee attacks may increase (will increase with the expansion), Overall damage output will decrease (Less Damage per hit and reduction in To-Hit means potentially more misses as well/will be an absolute increase in miss chances with the expansion) so the fights last longer and thus take even more resources to complete.

When this is a melees only option, they really have no option but demand healing from other classes if they wish to survive, and dependency can sometimes build bitterness, especially when someone playing a fighter or a barb sees that they need a healer, but the "healers" don't need them.

And thus the cure is worse than the poison....

Starla70
06-20-2012, 11:08 PM
Many interesting points of view here. I have always enjoyed playing a cleric. Just now unlocked FS, so I haven't even tried it yet, I was waiting to TR a toon to it. I know many people do not like playing clerics. However, I think the DEV's need to know there are those of us who do. Not everyone has the same play style. I will keep playing clerics and seeing what I can splash to make it stronger, or which item works better. I do not in any way think they needed to be nerfed. I mean it is insulting to know the artificers have a stronger blade barrier then we do, why make ours worse? Healing in a pug party, only if I really want something from that quest. Never if I can avoid it...why? Okay toon runs into a room having been told, "there are traps there." Toon now at -280 points, gee think you should have waited? Toon types or yells "What are you an idiot get in here and heal me now" Hmmm, illogical request. Intelligence may not be the highest stat on my character sheet, but that doesn't mean I am stupid enough to do what you just did and be just as dead with no way of healing either of us.

This of course is why I have stated on some of my healers "Warning, I can't heal stupid" Anyway, I know there are many places that as a toon, I am a support toon, not the main fighter, and if I am the main fighter, the party is in trouble. I tend to make my toons as healers first, then to ward off undead, then fight up close if I need to. This is the way I like my toons, the people I play with want that, so it is how it is going to be. Don't like it, don't play with our group. I don't see why others can't see that. Not everyone wants to run through every dungeon, use the puzzle solvers and gather the chests and go to the next quest. Some of us like to go through hit boxes, gather the free stuff the DEV's are so nice to leave us that means we do not have to spend real life cash on, figure out the puzzles with our own minds, work on it as a team, and just enjoy the game. I also believe that about 75% of those people are not reading the forums and have no clue that so many choices are being made without them even knowing there is a chance for them to stand up for how they want to play. Which means power gamers have taken over the game and do not like those of us who play to enjoy the game. I find that sad. So if you ever are looking for a Cleric that is there to heal and help the party, look me up or those of us on this thread and the others that enjoy playing a healer. I have joined many groups that just tell me out of no where because they want a live healer not a heal bot that thinks the charmed monster is more important then the fighter that has 5 hit points left in front of her. It is not that I don't pug, but I do keep a list of people that think healers are their personal heal bots. Those I do not join. I think the changes to the Cleric are not good from what I have seen in Beta or in live. It won't stop me from playing them, I just hope so many people with complain the DEV's take another look at it and find a middle ground.

butcheredspirit
06-20-2012, 11:54 PM
When this is a melees only option, they really have no option but demand healing from other classes if they wish to survive, and dependency can sometimes build bitterness, especially when someone playing a fighter or a barb sees that they need a healer, but the "healers" don't need them.

But it isn't the only option, there is still UMD.
A single level in a class that as this as a class skill should be enough of a boost to allow most people to use heal scrolls. They may even pick up evasion with a slightly deeper splash, (and trap skills if they have the skill points).

There is another choice,
those that want to be pure can consider cleric/favored soul dilettante.

People often don't want to give up anything to get self healing, and that's fine.
However surely this means they realise they are going to end up building a toon dependent on others.

This actually doesn't bother me, I feel people are entitled to build their toons however they choose.
I just don't appreciate it if people then assume the divine is obligated to fill in the gaps of their build.

However, unless someone is actually rude or overly demanding I will always heal them.
Especially since it is so easy to use a burst if I am in the melee with them.

hvygunner
06-21-2012, 01:54 AM
The cleric needs to be the more powerfull along the lines of healing. The healing should be ramped up, and speeded up. The point of this game is to work togather as a team, a rogue, tank, healer, arcane, every class has its perpouse. The healer is one of the corner stone classes for this game. If you remove a class, if you hobble one they all fail to be able to complete there jobs/tasks. The devs, have amped up the monsters, but deminished the healer, becouse we as the players asked them for it. But the repercussion of this will be, the new players, the currant players will be discouraged from playing. Or even playing healers becouse it will be to hard to compete. The other classes wont be able to keap up with there jobs. Fighters are going to die faster becouse healers wont be johnny on the spot with the heals, becouse there hobbled, wich will lead to bullying.
How many of you have heard "healers not doing his job agian." I have found bullying in every corner of this game, which is really quite sad, even on these forums players tear one another down, this is suposed to be a fun team game but there isnt any checks or balances, just a bunch of players disrespecting one another. When we buy a hireling were not soloing we have become a team. some players have found loop holes to uber there charecters up to solo. How many times do we find adventure packs in dungeons from a solo adventurer... How many times have you found a team of backpacks in a dungeon? Hmmm... Im not saying solooing is wrong, im saying this game is meant to be played with a team, when you first started your charecter you meet jeets and his team, then you meet with other players and continue as a team. Ive read many of these posts where players say this class needs to be changed, or that class needs to be changed, but nothing is being fixed for the better. I forsee if the nerfing continues this game will fallow the same path as starwars, it will collapse. We have already started to see the beginning of the collapse.

Ungood
06-21-2012, 04:54 PM
But it isn't the only option, there is still UMD.

A single level in a class that as this as a class skill should be enough of a boost to allow most people to use heal scrolls. They may even pick up evasion with a slightly deeper splash, (and trap skills if they have the skill points).

There is another choice,
those that want to be pure can consider cleric/favored soul dilettante.

LOL. This reminds me of the joke

"How do you spot the Half-Elf in your group?"
"They are dead with a scroll in their hand"
Anyway, in reality they could splash 18 levels of divine and really fix the problem, but that actually IS the core of the Problem.

The problem is: as anyone can tell you is not the lack of divines, but the lack of healers, or more to the point, the desire of the existing divines not enjoying being slapped with the role of "Healer".

Thus: Giving more healing ability to divines is not going to make their task any easier, and only going to reinforce the stereotype of roles that many divines have made clear, they do not like.

Thus: The only real Solution is: Giving more , better, viable, renewable, lower level, self-healing options to melee and allowing them to tend to themselves.

Only by breaking a melee's feeling of dependency upon a divine, will break the model of a melee looking at a divine as just heal-bot.

More needs to be done for melee overall, that is true as well, and I for one would like to see far more done for melee, but offering at least something better then those deplorable pots would be a step in the right direction.

Who knows, if they offer something that is not totally disgusting, monks and pallies might even consider using them.:rolleyes:

blerkington
06-21-2012, 07:42 PM
Hi,

Ungood, I still think you're taking an extreme position in here describing how difficult things are for melee classes. My reason for that is it conflicts with my own experience of the game.

My approach to melee, which was fostered by watching experienced players, is to be able to get through an encounter without needing to be healed to prevent my death. The way to do this is to put your enemies down quickly and not bite off more than you can chew.

The point of this is to do two things. Firstly, it's an attempt to reduce the incoming damage, secondly, it makes the problem of recovery one that can be dealt with outside of combat. You don't seem to accept that SF potion and scroll healing are adequate solutions, but in fact they both work very well under these circumstances. I can and do use both of them in combat too, on my ranger/rogue, but it has taken some work to be able to do that.

My point is that there are already many methods of healing available to non blue bar characters, as well as many methods of damage mitigation from buffs, gear, build and playstyle. I am perfectly fine with there being harsh consequences for melee characters who build for dps only, ignore their healing and damage mitigation options, and don't play tactically.

Thanks.

Ungood
06-21-2012, 08:49 PM
Ungood, I still think you're taking an extreme position in here describing how difficult things are for melee classes.

That is your feeling on it, and I respect that, but the legion of divine players that come to this forum to express their discomfort, apprehension, and some cases even total repulsion to group with melee players they may not know because of the enforced dependency melee classes suffer though which has in some cases manifested itself as the players demanding that divines heal them at the exclusion of all else tells me I am not being extreme enough.

HatsuharuZ
06-21-2012, 09:16 PM
LOL. This reminds me of the joke

"How do you spot the Half-Elf in your group?"
"They are dead with a scroll in their hand"
Anyway, in reality they could splash 18 levels of divine and really fix the problem, but that actually IS the core of the Problem.

The problem is: as anyone can tell you is not the lack of divines, but the lack of healers, or more to the point, the desire of the existing divines not enjoying being slapped with the role of "Healer".

Thus: Giving more healing ability to divines is not going to make their task any easier, and only going to reinforce the stereotype of roles that many divines have made clear, they do not like.

Thus: The only real Solution is: Giving more , better, viable, renewable, lower level, self-healing options to melee and allowing them to tend to themselves.

Only by breaking a melee's feeling of dependency upon a divine, will break the model of a melee looking at a divine as just heal-bot.

More needs to be done for melee overall, that is true as well, and I for one would like to see far more done for melee, but offering at least something better then those deplorable pots would be a step in the right direction.

Who knows, if they offer something that is not totally disgusting, monks and pallies might even consider using them.:rolleyes:


We do need better potions than, say, a CL 5 Cure Serious potion. Those don't do much at all for my fighter. Oh, and any more potent potions must NOT come with disgustingly detrimental side-effects. Oh, and healing kits than can be used BEFORE one is below 0 HP would be nice. I laugh at that particular mechanic any time an *arcane caster* gets me back on my feet with Greater Heroism or the Rage spell if the divine in the party is otherwise occupied.

blerkington
06-21-2012, 11:09 PM
That is your feeling on it, and I respect that, but the legion of divine players that come to this forum to express their discomfort, apprehension, and some cases even total repulsion to group with melee players they may not know because of the enforced dependency melee classes suffer though which has in some cases manifested itself as the players demanding that divines heal them at the exclusion of all else tells me I am not being extreme enough.

Ungood,

Thank you, I really appreciate the moderate tone of your reply. I take your point that my experience may be different from that of other people.

My main is a ranger/rogue, that just finished his sixth life. He was weak and poorly geared for his first couple of lives, and being weak really hammered home the lesson that wading in could get him badly wounded or killed in just about every encounter on harder difficulties. It really focused my attention on playstyle in melee.

There are a number of ways to interpret this experience, and the one I eventually settled on was that I needed to play more intelligently and better use the tools that exist in game to solve these problems. Please note that this is not a swipe at you, from reading your posts I can see that you are an experienced player.

The toon I played second most was my healer, who is on his third life. I made him to get into the PUG scene so I could learn the content I couldn't do by myself, raids and suchlike. I have difficulty with that toon. I don't play it much anymore because I dislike the rudeness and stupid expectations I encounter in some groups. I am in a solo guild, so no guild runs.

During those three lives I've run with melees of all levels of ability, though, and it's always a ton of fun to run with people who know how to take care of themselves, really only need my healing for the occasional top-up, and are grateful for it. This includes people who are playing full dps characters too, fighters, barbarians, etc. Very good players, blowing through difficult content too, not mincing along and pulling mobs one by one to gang up on them.

I think the problems you've mentioned definitely do exist. They are caused by a mixture of things, but maybe they don't necessitate changes being made to the game.

People who are rude to healers and/or expect babysitting, people who don't know their capabilities well enough to judge when a frontal assault or some more careful play is most appropriate, people who don't know how to gear and build toons to be able to look after themselves; does the game really need to cater to these types?

I'd be interested to hear what you think.

Thanks.

Ungood
06-22-2012, 01:21 PM
The toon I played second most was my healer, who is on his third life. I made him to get into the PUG scene so I could learn the content I couldn't do by myself, raids and suchlike. I have difficulty with that toon. I don't play it much anymore because I dislike the rudeness and stupid expectations I encounter in some groups. I am in a solo guild, so no guild runs.

This is why I am advocating change in the direction of self-sufficiency for all classes.

It is not about simply giving a bigger healing pot to a barb or a fighter, it is about changing the entire mentality and perceptions of the game to: We should tend our own.

You used the phrase "Stupid expectations" and I have to agree with you there. However that stupid expectation is derived from the moronically minimal means that a melee has to tend themselves.

Those SilverFlame pots being a prime example of how bad it is going to get for a melee to self heal. First they need to own all the SilverFlame Favor packs, then elite almost every single quest, and their reward for that effort is a potion that provides -10 to all stats, -10 to all Saves as well as crippling effect of a slow run speed, to obtain a minimal amount of self healing. You could not paint a sign bigger that says "You need a nanny-bot to stay alive", without totally removing any trace of self-sufficiency.

Thus from day one as a melee they get constantly bombarded with bad options to worse options if they plan to be self-reliant, and that pretty much shoves them into a corner where they feel dependent and trapped into needing a nanny-bot, and that is where the problems really start and the major core of the issue. That is the cause of those "Stupid-Expectations"

Because lets be honest here, Divines don't want to play nanny to anyone, they don't want to be nursemaids, or babysit anyone. They want to log in, join a group, and have some fun like anyone else in the entire game. The same holds true for a melee, they don't need to feel like they are dependent on someone kissing their every boo-boo. No one wants to have to joined at the hip to another player in their party, everyone wants to be able ti run off and have some fun, it's a game after all, it's supposed to be about meeting people and having fun quests and adventure.

And in that spirit, needing to wait for some other player to join your group (like a healer) to enable you to be able to have any fun is about a huge a design flaw as you could possibly get.

Thus, the only way for cooperative fun, enjoyable play to exist if for the game to have from the very start an ambiance of self-accountability, but that can only happen if everyone is given the means to honestly account for themselves from Krothos to Epics.

As I said before, a Self-Sufficient Melee should not be the pet project of a bored vet, or a goal for life 3+, it needs to be something for a first life player, to be get the message reinforced by the game itself from the very start.

Dalsheel
06-23-2012, 09:47 AM
This is why I am advocating change in the direction of self-sufficiency for all classes.

Because lets be honest here, Divines don't want to play nanny to anyone, they don't want to be nursemaids, or babysit anyone. They want to log in, join a group, and have some fun like anyone else in the entire game. The same holds true for a melee, they don't need to feel like they are dependent on someone kissing their every boo-boo. No one wants to have to joined at the hip to another player in their party, everyone wants to be able ti run off and have some fun, it's a game after all, it's supposed to be about meeting people and having fun quests and adventure.

And in that spirit, needing to wait for some other player to join your group (like a healer) to enable you to be able to have any fun is about a huge a design flaw as you could possibly get.

As I said before, a Self-Sufficient Melee should not be the pet project of a bored vet, or a goal for life 3+, it needs to be something for a first life player, to be get the message reinforced by the game itself from the very start.
1st of all I would like to point out that Divine casters enjoy healing competent melees that know how to act in combat and respect their healer by having at least 1.00 healing modifier and not being self-destructive. This kind of melees let the divine caster do other things as well besides healing non-stop so the divine caster doesn't get bored of lookin' at red-bars and doesn't feel like a hireling. I do not believe that any cleric or fvs would deny healing every once in a while a group of respectful melees. It's asking them to behave like hirelings that makes them go wild.

Fighters and barbarians can always get more healing amp and have those cure serious potions actually be useful. I suspect you mention those potions solely for leveling purposes and not for use at level cap. Not as a way of self-sufficiency anyway.

If you want to do a barbarian life just to get the past life and then TR again, there's no reason to go Horc. Go human and get tons of racial healing amp, grind some basic healing amp gear like Levvik's Bracers, Hamp DT armor etc... It's not as hard as you may think. If you want to be self-sufficient then getting those items should be a priority and not be considered excessive.

Are you concerned about new players without gear? Well, they have to have some goal to progress in the game. You cant expect a new player to roll a barbarian and have his mind on running epics with an eSoS from day1.

End-game raiding toons are different. They may have a hard time reaching level cap, but their goal is not soloing quests and zergin' through Bloody Crypt or Wiz-King anyway... their goal is end-game raids, that WILL have dedicated healers to watch over them, they will have the gear needed and most probably will have a few past lives as well. So, there's really no need for these toons to be able to self heal.

Even more so, I can assure you that most people who see divines as pure heal-bots are people who don't even care to become self sufficient, they just don't care. They don't even care to learn how to play the game. They want to rush in battle no matter what and demand from the divine caster in the party to act as a heal-bot. This is THEIR problem. They don't want to stop and think before they act, they don't care to make their toon survivable.

How many times have you stumbled upon a wf barbarian with no healing amp whatsoever? It has happened to me MANY times. This kind of toons deserve to have a hard time staying alive, deserve the frustration of waiting endlessly for a healer.

Additionally, what about the classes that are already self-sufficient. Some more, some less, some effortlessly, some with effort.... Monks, Paladins, Rangers and via UMD Artificers, Bards and Rogues. All those things you said about giving self-healing abilities to melees are actually directed towards 2 classes and 2 classes alone. Barbarian and Fighter. That's it. The others have ways to self heal already. Don't you find this to be somewhat unfair?

just my 2 cents on the matter

blerkington
06-24-2012, 07:55 PM
Hi Ungood,

Thanks again for the reply. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. I am grateful for the effort you are making to discuss this and improve the game, so +1 to you.

The thing is, I like that this problem exists, because I think it fosters group play and teamwork, and makes the game more complex and interesting. It provides a niche for characters like mine who are good but not top-notch dps, but are more versatile and survivable.

Getting back to your argument, some gear is difficult to get, and some builds are not obvious or not even possible for new players, I get that. Heal scrolls, SF potions, healing amp all do exist, though, they work, and good use can be made of them once you know.

My main point was that the sooner a melee learns to play well, tactically, not just acting the aggro magnet without having the means to deal with that aggro, the sooner this problem goes away.

Arranging things so that you take as little damage per encounter as possible helps considerably. This changes the issue from healing while fighting to healing between fights, which is a much easier problem for everyone, regardless of build. Raids and certain other very tough quests aside, of course.

Being thoughtful, working with other people, recognising your limitations, consciously trying to improve your game, and being considerate of healers also all contribute to the solution.

The tools are all there. It's just a matter of using them to solve what is a very solvable problem.

Thanks.

Ungood
06-25-2012, 07:41 AM
Hi Ungood,

Thanks again for the reply. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. I am grateful for the effort you are making to discuss this and improve the game, so +1 to you.

Thank you.


The thing is, I like that this problem exists, because I think it fosters group play and teamwork, and makes the game more complex and interesting. It provides a niche for characters like mine who are good but not top-notch dps, but are more versatile and survivable.

In many way we will simply never see the same path in this discussion, and perhaps that comes from what we hope to accomplish with any change. Like many things, an idea forms to address a problem, and the solution may at first not seem to align, but, only after implementation does the effects begin to take place.

Here is what I see, so perhaps you can get a firm understanding of where I am coming from.

I read countless other posts by players of divines (The OP being yet another fine example of this) about the difficulty of healing, the cost of healing, and all these other problems. Some are not solvable by "Smart" game-play, in the case of the cost of healing a high end raid, the problem manifests itself in simply a lack of DPS to be able to finish the fight in sufficient amount of time, in other times it is a problem with people not wanting to stay together.

But the real problem is that Divine is looked upon only as a "healer"

The OP asked for ideas about how to encourage people to play Divines, this topic is about what would it take to get more people willing to play "Divines" and the long, short, and in reality, only answer is to make their job easier or perhaps, or perhaps another way to look at it, is the solution is to make their "Job" non-existent and allow them to simply play the game as they see fit.

Thus, problems like dependency are not encouraging group play, they are in fact, from the many posts in these forums, the pinnacle point of what is discouraging to group play for many divines. Thus we get divines not wanting to pug, or only running in channel/guild runs, a slew of LFM's with BYOH started by Divines, divines opting to solo content as opposed to grouping at all. And the list of how the game becomes more and more segmented rolls on.

So. This topic or discussion is not about keeping flavor builds viable, or some such, it not about making some hybrid melee build feel better about themselves because they don't need a "healer" it is about creating a game environment where there is no 'Healer' and when a divine joins the group, they are met as an equal among peers, not some player shoved in a role that we denote to hirelings and such.

"Our Healer arrived" should not be the welcome line when a Divine joins a group.

But the only way to make that happen is for all classes to have inherent and obvious self-sufficiency, that is made clear at the very starting levels that "Self-Sufficiency" is the name of the game in this MMO. The message that just because you played a max DPS class does not mean you get to treat the divines in your group like your own personal Hit Point Pump.

But as long as the best DPS classes in the game need to depend on a Divine to heal them will expect a Divine to heal, and thus demand that a Divine heals them, and we see how the process goes.

The only way to break that process is at the "need" phase of it, and that need, needs to go away at the early levels, and remain that Divine healing is a Boon, not a requirement.

In that front, I feel that the inherent dependency of some classes is actually a deterrent to group play, and this seems to be reinforced by every divine post I have read to date about why they no longer pug, or don't like to pug.

So. In that regard, freeing a divine from the shackles of "healer" and allowing them to be a divine is what will inspire more people to play them, and that can only happen if we abolish the dependency that classes have on needing a "healer".

This everyone gains freedom to enjoy the game, and by giving all players that freedom, I believe they will opt to group more because it is a means of socializing and enjoying the company of other players, which is what an MMO should be about.

Such is my feelings on the matter.

blerkington
06-27-2012, 09:53 PM
Ungood,

That was a very well-written post, thank you.

Although I think you've made a good argument, I still have trouble with what you're proposing because my own experience tells me that it's generally the badly-played or badly-built melees who are really suffering from this problem. Outside of raids and very difficult content, that is.

Regarding the effects on class balance, what does better self sufficiency for pure dps classes mean for the other classes or builds who sacrifice dps to be able to heal themselves? Will this invalidate build choices or whole classes?

What you are proposing may in fact continue the problem of shallow thinking in terms of narrow class roles. Why take a ranger or paladin into a group, other than for reasons of charity, if you can take pure dps classes who can now also heal themselves?

And, specifically, what do you propose be available to dps builds to let them heal themselves? How much healing should they be able to do? In or out of combat? And at what cost will this facility be made available?

I am more sympathetic to your position now, but I think it may have other consequences for class choice and in-game behaviour, and the devil will very much be in the details.

Thanks.

lotsfan
07-02-2012, 03:55 AM
Nah healers need to be the coolest looking. Glowing eye fvs only goggles, awesome armors, big wicked looking death head staffs with great stats. Boba Fett factor I say.

The main reason people don't like to play healers is they are often pigeon holed look/gear wise as look of christian clergy. Light robes, weak armor, grey blue shields, pink wands. Its a problem in every mmo.

Also gameplay can be an annoyance with healers most times. They got it right with nice features with fvs leap of faith for example totally. "Give them a cool mobility on battlefield feat" was a damn good idea. That combined with DP on my FVS and I am game to heal for sure, because I can solo a bit also.

My main who is a super geared fighter with silver flame pots on the other hand can solo anything as far as even raid bosses (non epic) pre expansion. He IS overpowered as set up, practically unstoppable without massive enemy cc and fast multiple ranged dpsers. Talking epic haywire foundry, pre xpack, with unlucky rolls, type of stoppage to take out my fighter, even when solo. I take my fvs in there and he can get things done solo, but its a long process.

Common knowledge however is if fully geared, TR'ed etc, a fvs can solo anything better than anyone, I can see how, but I don't care, because the character just isn't "cool" like my fighter.

Lack of healer play isn't an overpowered issue with healers being less abundant, its a cool factor thing.

team03maker
07-03-2012, 05:55 PM
It interests me and discourages me that so many cry out that all classes should have the ability to heal themselves. I disagree. A clerics primary job is to keep the party alive and as a cleric player I enjoy the satisfaction in keeping the party alive. If I don't feel like healing a party, I play a different toon. My blue bar belongs to my team so that we can complete the quest. If I play a Barbarian then my axe belongs to the party and I do everything I can to hit hard and and avoid damage, and buy pots to heal myself between battles and even protecting the healer. If you don't like healing parties, then play a different toon or play by yourself. On this note, I don't mind healing teammates and don't mind keeping them alive.

Clerics have the power to keep the team alive and also Clerics have the power to not heal. I will heal everyone even the inexperienced players, and I can also not heal the players who blatantly disregard the team and rush forward compromising the success of the quest by their selfish play style and inability and skill to avoid damage that otherwise is avoidable. Clerics and Favored Souls have the built in ability to be the deciding factor in any battle. Who lives and who might stay dead for a while. He he he.

I argue to keep the roles as is and have the separation of caster, melee, and specialists. This game seems to be designed for classes to fill roles creating a team-player environment. It also allows players to create self-sufficient toons and play solo.

What makes this game interesting to me is the ability to make any type of build I can think up given the current options available and see how it turns out. DDO allows us to multi-class and infinitely make each class/build different to fill the role we wish to play, and/or make a self-efficient build (which there a plenty of self-efficient builds/classes out there).

On an earlier post it was said that DDO as failed to create a way to educate us on how to play the game. I disagree again. I love the fact that I have to figure it out myself for my playstyle using information I gathered and buil my knowledge from other players observations and experience in the game. I would not play the game if there was only one way to build a toon.

In reference to Cleric enhancement lines, epic destinies, Feat selections options, spells, and gear>> I'd love more options! I read several threads and it seems these are on the way, they just did not make it on this update.

When you roll your cleric take some time to decide what kind of play-style you prefer as a cleric and realize your gonna heal. Its just a matter of when you gonna heal and let your party know so they can adjust their tactics; healer in the middle of battle, healer caster standing on the sidelines, situation healer doing a little of everything, and/or a horrible clieric> “screw you guys, this blue bar is for me.” The last type of player-toon combo is not welcome in my party for very long. If I want that type I call for a Sorc or Wiz to the party and sit back and watch the fireworks till their blue bar goes out. As in any class there are good player/toon combos and bad.

In short: Stop whining about healing. Grab your cleric, put on some armor, pick up your gear, smite your enemies, make them kneel before you, and kick Death's A%#. Because no one can stop Death like a Cleric (and some favored souls).

Right, wrong, good or bad I said it. Play Cleric or play something else.

Ungood
07-04-2012, 03:17 PM
Ungood,

That was a very well-written post, thank you.

Although I think you've made a good argument, I still have trouble with what you're proposing because my own experience tells me that it's generally the badly-played or badly-built melees who are really suffering from this problem. Outside of raids and very difficult content, that is.

I would like to say that Poorly built, geared and played toons suffer, overall, irrespective of class.

However, the problem as it is, is about making the game role-less and allow for everyone to have the freedom to play their toon as they wish. If someone wants to roll a melee FvS, they should be allowed to do so, and not be shoved into the role of healer if they expect to get into the hard content, or do much more then their tight knit groups (if they have them) will allow.

It is a bane in many ways to say if you play a divine that you need to heal, you can opt to not heal and pesue other directions, however the classes that are interdependent on "healing" classes will inherently reject the deviation from "role" because of their own limitations, they will seek to impose limitations on others.

So only by removing the very premise of pigeon hole philosophy, and abolishing the role mentality from the player bas by allowing more diversity among the builds, while giving them their own unique strengths, can we make a game that allows players to just enjoy playing with whomever they want, regardless of class.

It is rather unbecoming to walk into a quest and have everyone just shoved into little boxes and told what their single minded task shall be, we have a great vast diversity in this game, and roles do little more then destroy creativity, they bludgeon to death the concept of building different strategy builds, and force people to be mindless sheep in what should be a game of heroic adventures. In many ways the "role" concept in fact caters to myopic single minded concepts and thus encourages poorly developed toons that are one dimensional. Games that permit or entice the very idea of roles are a festering breeding ground of displaced blame, where a "Melee" feels adequate, even justified, (which is heinous really) to blame the "healer" for their death.

Personally such antics should have no place in a "heroic" fantasy game. So, in reality the only way to let people be more active on any of their toons, is to deconstruct the walls that block diversity among the builds.

How that happens in the end of things, could be it's own topic, how the balances are struck could be debated for the end of time, but that does not change the fact that "roles" honestly need to be removed and the only way to make that happen is offer more diversity among the builds, and thus allow and reinforce that everyone is to be accountable for their own survival, from level 1 to now level 25.

Yehediah
12-03-2012, 09:26 PM
As a player having both a capped cleric and favored soul, I tend to agree with the OP. More dev love sent to healers would be a good game bonus - especially in raids.

Healers often raid in groups that are already heavy with healers so they can do something OTHER than constant babysit healing. Plus, raids tend to be very expensive for healers - especially the top ones (and often with little incentive in terms of gear drops).

Now, on the plus the last 2 new series did have some very nice items for healers (the mace and the shield). That's a step in the right direction.

Now, on the babysitting. I do heal and like to heal - but, too many DPS focus so heavily on DPS (and often it's still lackluster) that they totally neglect all defense measures (such as AC, healing amp, DR, threat reduction if not a "tank", UMD or some other way to use healing wands or scrolls, or even having healing pots, pots or items for removing disease/poison/etc.). Classes should not be totally self-sufficient, but everyone needs a degree of it. And, you can always encourage or reward healers by giving them spell point pots - they are doggone expensive!

And, what's really funny - when a group lacks the DPS to do a raid, they usually complain that there wasn't enough healing - no matter how good the healer, you can't keep healing forever if the DPS is lacking. Most of the times I've seen a raid fail it was more due to lack of DPS than due to lack of healing - but, more often than not someone there blames the healer. You want to see more healers - defend the poor healer who gets blamed for every little misfortune.

DarkForte
12-04-2012, 05:01 AM
EDIT: I was caught by a necro-post. Shame on me.

SealedInSong
12-04-2012, 09:58 PM
I don't particularly agree with the statement that divines need to be more "powerful," but that they need to get more of their core spells and abilities, such as domains.

That wouldn't necessarily make a more character powerful in all cases, but would for the smart player in practice.

I do agree that many classes need to be buffed and revisited comprehensively, most particularly bards, paladins, and rangers.

That said, the enhancement pass will likely change the game so much that this thread would best be served making constructive suggestions as to what divines should get in the pass, realistically. And I think any player of experience knows that divines, and in general casting classes, are already "over power" of the relative standard of power distributed amongst casters and noncasters.

The fact that there are only two truly divine healing classes out of thirteen classes, including two supplemental healer classes outside of the divine arena (druid and bard), has more to do with the dearth of healers online than anything else. My opinion, though.

anttoni11
12-06-2012, 02:14 AM
There is allready 2 ways to do selfsufficient melee via umd or helf cleric dille, so i dont get the idea why people still complain about heals?

Yehediah
12-06-2012, 11:41 AM
There is allready 2 ways to do selfsufficient melee via umd or helf cleric dille, so i dont get the idea why people still complain about heals?

Also, pots (though need the favor tied bigger ones at higher levels) and regeneration items (and heal skill via resting) to recoup HP. And to reduce damage taken: DR items, and higher AC, and threat reduction. And to reduce amount of healing needed: higher HP items to have a bigger pool of HP, toughness items and feats/enhancements, stoneskin items, and healing amplification. To make the healer's job easier: keeping near them and within site so they don't waste spells casting heals at you when you are behind an object and can't be healed. And, to help out the poor healer who has to heal your "sorry ***": gold donations for them and giving them SP pots.

There really are lots of ways DPS'ers can be somewhat self-sufficient and/or make the healer's job easier. Just do as many as you can without sacrificing DPS and even make a minor compromise or two to increase survivability.

Dorian
12-09-2012, 04:52 PM
There is allready 2 ways to do selfsufficient melee via umd or helf cleric dille, so i dont get the idea why people still complain about heals?

What about for a barb?

silver flame pots are the only option there.... and the downsides to them have already been mentioned.

Dorian
12-09-2012, 04:59 PM
There really are lots of ways DPS'ers can be somewhat self-sufficient and/or make the healer's job easier. Just do as many as you can without sacrificing DPS and even make a minor compromise or two to increase survivability.

I think that is key... Its hard to make a self sufficient tank without sacrificing DPS.

I have a pally with wicked healing amp (including pally past lives)... and I have a Horc Barb that is not self sufficient in any way.

Giving the option to my healer friends... 9 times out of 10 they would prefer me to play the Barb over the Pally... because the quest gets done faster.

Who would you want to tank for you? ok DPS self-sufficient Pally or wicked DPS Barb reliant on healer?

Yehediah
12-09-2012, 07:48 PM
I think that is key... Its hard to make a self sufficient tank without sacrificing DPS.

I have a pally with wicked healing amp (including pally past lives)... and I have a Horc Barb that is not self sufficient in any way.

...

Who would you want to tank for you? ok DPS self-sufficient Pally or wicked DPS Barb reliant on healer?

The "without sacrificing DPS" is in reference to a DPS build. A tank build is different, as would a trapper build, etc. The principle is the same. Everyone can do things to be less reliant on constant healing. Obviously, in tank mode in a raid, you'll need some healing - total self-sufficiency is a red-herring - no healer is ever asking for that - the key is a degree of it. So, with all of that said, I'll repeat my comments with the phrase parsed for a tank:

In addition to SF pots and half-elf dilettante, there are many ways to be more self sufficient: pots (though need the favor tied bigger ones at higher levels) and regeneration items (and heal skill via resting) to recoup HP. And to reduce damage taken: DR items, and higher AC, and threat reduction. And to reduce amount of healing needed: higher HP items to have a bigger pool of HP, toughness items and feats/enhancements, stoneskin items, and healing amplification. To make the healer's job easier: keeping near them and within site so they don't waste spells casting heals at you when you are behind an object and can't be healed. And, to help out the poor healer who has to heal your "sorry ***": gold donations for them and giving them SP pots.

There really are lots of ways tanks can be somewhat self-sufficient and/or make the healer's job easier. Just do as many as you can without sacrificing tank ability and even make a minor compromise or two to increase survivability.

Rawrargh
12-09-2012, 08:23 PM
Could we get an OP cleric to turn undead here? This is a 6 month's old thread... And on top of that the last couple of posts is senseless beating of a dead horse.

Yehediah
12-09-2012, 09:45 PM
Could we get an OP cleric to turn undead here? This is a 6 month's old thread... And on top of that the last couple of posts is senseless beating of a dead horse.

I can turn outsiders named Rawrargh! ;-)

Go beat your own dead horses in newer threads with far more "senseless" postings!

psykopeta
12-10-2012, 01:08 AM
Nah, what they need to do is

- auto-enlarge any and all healing spells (like they did for rays)
- have an option provide a feedback that is both visual and audio for THE ENTIRE PARTY that says "Joe tried to heal Sam, but Sam is blocked / out of range / stupid"

I realize this second may make it difficult for some people to lie and say "oh I tried to heal you, you were blocked" when really they weren't paying attention.

Own your mistakes healers. I'll be the first to say that you died because I was watching something else, but then again I make no claims to be a great healer ;-)

simply loved the 2nd idea XD

when you are healed you just see the amount healed, its nice, but what happens when you are blocked? you don't see a ****, or when you run in the opposite direction to the healer... same

it would be great if players receive a floating text or error message like "PLAYER out of range" and "PLAYER blocked"

nothing more, no need to say if it's a buff, a heal, if you are at the entrance and he's at end boss...

where PLAYER is the one who casts the spell

same way that caster sees the error message, the party target should do so

this way you have a better coordination

1st idea is great, but ppl complains about the lack of healers so giving em more spells(i thought there was storm of vengeance, there wasn't til druid appeared... and now clr can't slot it? LOL? ) or spellpower

i think there should be a pre (common with fvs and clr) made for healers, but giving nice benefits, like healing spells cost reduction or some healing SLA, hots, AND of course, improving the positive spellpower, life magic enhancements suck mostly

PS: ive been a dedicated healer, just getting him some pl for giving more versatility cause healing doesn't fill all the enhancements/time even in a headless chicken party

Seljuck
12-10-2012, 08:49 AM
There's no healers because divines are overpowered right now, and they dont need group to run quests/epics. The only exceptions are raids where other classes are needed... not always.. but still needed. When i hit WHO tab and check clr/fvs online on Cannith i see a lot of ppl (divine) without a group. Most of them run content solo.. and dont even bother to check LFM. THATS why u cant find healers.

U think that when divines or even arcanes will be OP they will start joining ur groups??? They will join even less.. think... "If I'm so OP why i need others to do that quest??" Try to answer that question..

Asking for power up class that's already overpowered is silly and break game balance. Thats my opinion.

Matuse
12-10-2012, 09:03 AM
When i hit WHO tab and check clr/fvs online on Cannith i see a lot of ppl (divine) without a group. Most of them run content solo.. and dont even bother to check LFM. THATS why u cant find healers.

Because the people you end up grouping with are twits who make life harder and less enjoyable.

I do not play DDO to babysit you.

Seljuck
12-10-2012, 09:16 AM
Because the people you end up grouping with are twits who make life harder and less enjoyable.

I do not play DDO to babysit you.

U think i need babysitting??? Check my signature, check which life i do.. U think i dont know this game and need babysitting all the time?? Im self sufficient, i dont need others to do 98% of the content. But i still like to play with others.. if i want solo smt, i play cRPG not a MMO.

Tell me, when u join group u are forced to only heal ?? U cant cast bb, cant cast DP??? Ur spells are blocked?? NO u just DONT WANT to bother of other and throw them stupid heal if they need it. And Babysitting its just silly excuse..

Yehediah
12-10-2012, 11:49 AM
The only exceptions are raids where other classes are needed... not always.. but still needed.

Well, raids really are the point. But, you like to to misdirect to all the other side issues. In raids at level (typically upper level ones), you need healers and it often is very costly for them to run and they usually get to do nothing but heal while too many in the typical pug makes it hard to keep them alive.

Then, you get the typical DPS'er *****ing in the forums insisting raids need to be harder - so, Turbine makes it even harder by making it require tons more healing. And, so, healers like me end up not really want to run their healer on raids and thus they end up the last to fill, often with a long wait to get them.

On top of that, they seldom give really exciting loot drops in raids for the healers so why would they want to run it?

StigglePig
12-10-2012, 03:47 PM
Raids are another story, but if I play my divine and see a group waiting to fill with a "need healer" tag I avoid it like the plague. Healing those guys is usually not worth the sp it takes, I'll gladly throw a few heals around in a byoh group but being relegated to healbot duty is neither fun nor effective.

I feel your pain. If anything bad happens, it's all the solitary healers fault for not topping up those hp bars every 2 seconds. I guess you've seen a lot of hp yoyos in pugs.

StigglePig
12-10-2012, 03:52 PM
I'll /sign this portion... the Clerics need some luv, way overdue... ;)

Add me to that list. Clerics are cool and are burdened too much with things like cost and casting time.

spikkel
12-25-2012, 07:01 AM
The main reason you see few healers puging has nothing to do with the game or it's mechanics and a lot more to do with the people playing the game.

Too many want to tell us how to play, to stcik to healing, to basicaly be their slightly smarter, with more hp/sp hireling...

So unless they have a patch to fix stupidity and jerks, yeah more OP Cleric/FvS is not gonna help.

This is entirely my opinion, can't fix stupidity or rudeness

Ivan_Milic
12-25-2012, 07:25 AM
The thing I dont like is divines that only heal,they are fine in harder content,raids and ee quests,but in other quests they feel just like hire for me,I didnt know how powerful fvs are till I made one,thats when I realized that blade barrier rocks,on a first life I was steamrolling through quests.
I used to blame it all on divines too,but I didnt know how to play then,now if I die,its only my fault,cant blame anyone else.

psykopeta
12-25-2012, 07:58 AM
add xp for healing:

selfhealers get xp
babysitters get more xp
healer dedicated to the barb(every party has 2 healers, u know it) gets plenty more xp

of course depending the total% of heals

Vien
12-25-2012, 08:17 PM
Nothing would really be solved if you make divines more OP. As it is things are pretty much well balanced already. What is clearly lacking however is the missing prestige enhancements for divine classes. Clerics are pretty much restricted to radiant servant and FS are restricted to AoV.

If you improve the martial abilities of divine, what would happen is that many DPS would TR to become divine DPS.

If you improve the nuking capabilities of divines, then sorcs would TR to divine.

We have all seen this when deathblock was removed from epic mob. Palemasters became so plentiful and when savants were introduced many TRed back to being a sorc. At the current moment, the capabilities between divine, martial and arcane is pretty balanced although a few classes could use some love.

A side effect of making divines too OP would be that many people who did not play divines previously would play it with the wrong mindset. You would see many divines who will say their sp is better off spent nuking than healing people. This would work against the idea of having more divines to heal pugs in the first place.

You can't really force people to fill healer roles. The people who do (and able to fill the role effectively) are usually well respected by the community and get invitations to many private groups. That alone is a perk for those who play healing capable classes.

From my observations, what seems to be the problem is:
1) Hirelings healers are just too weak and die too easily. (They are not as good as human players but proper usage of them is usually sufficient to tide through quests.
However their hp is easily half that of a human player divine of the same level and they do not bother to buff themselves with elemental resists which leads to them die easily to stray spells or just standing in the lava. They don't get to enjoy the juicy 30 elemental resistance buffs on the guild ships too...)
2) Cure pots caster lvl cap. (Healing and repair pots needs some love..)
3) Lack of low level healing amp gear. (It would be nice if healing amp appeared more frequently in random generated lower level gear and in more more types of item slots)
4) Elite streak obsession. (IMO, this is the biggest reason why LFMs demand healers when the quest can be run on lower difficulty level without one....)

Kayla93
12-27-2012, 09:13 AM
Honestly for me its "game difficulty" problem.
I have fvs but...
1) EN - I can solo it with no problems.
2) EH - I can solo it or make it with 1 friend/guildy with no real problems.
3) EE - If I go there I wont have time to do any dmg cause even while Divine Wrath is in casting some of melees are 1-2 hitted in meantime and die - so I basically cant get my eyes off hotbar.

So yup... I think 1 big improvement that was done is making items form EN and EH and EE different. EN - less powerfull. EE - more powerfull.

The second change that would make ME (so i guess some other divines too) run with groups on EE would be :
- make EE that difficult that i CAN sometimes use offensive spells -not only glue my eyes to hp bars cause thats not fun. I blink ans boom - someones dead :P. But also not make it solo-able for me.
OR
- make melees have better self-defend - so they can go into EN and solo it with no problems. And so they wont be 1-2 hitted in EE :P Because honestly... When arcane with displacement and less hp is able to survive longer than melee .. sth is not right.


So for me its game difficulty. Id like to go to the content I cant solo and I need group with others to complete it BUT - Id also like this difficulty to not be "do not blink or look away from hp bar cause someone will die" experience cause its not fun too :P.

Scaling is also funny thing cause... well... I know it is needed BUT when I can go and do quest solo easier, than take 5 others with me and do it ... this is not right. And thats the case too.
When epic red name is gaining around 8000 hp for every 1 person in group... beating 8k hp solo is easier than beating 48k hp with 6 ppl :P. And AC and PPR of mobs are probably also going up.


And well...theres also community side of it. I absolutely love DDO community compared to community of other games BUT:
- if someone dies stupid once ... theres no big problem, right? It happens
- if healer does not heal you once because hes also a human - he/she did not think/ looked away or anythink thats is def. healers fault most people wont "shrug" at it as if it was any other class. They will blacklist, yell etc :P. So making a mistake on any other class is not that unpleasant experience as doing mistake on a healer.

Ape_Man
12-27-2012, 09:24 AM
- make melees have better self-defend - so they can go into EN and solo it with no problems. And so they wont be 1-2 hitted in EE :P Because honestly... When arcane with displacement and less hp is able to survive longer than melee .. sth is not right.

Good melees do not have this problem.

Kayla93
12-27-2012, 10:03 AM
Good melees do not have this problem.

Not exactly true. Double.

Yeah on most trash mobs they dont BUT - were talking here why divines do not pug - in pug u cant be sure that melee is good because he has 800 hp :P. And this thread is bout pug - u have to agree pug is not always "the best players setup".

The thing is every arcane have displacement and every newbie arcane will quickly learn to use that. New melees to be good and not be 1-2 hitted against EE mobs have to first collect a lot of gear, make gs clickies etc :P. It should not be this way.
And if newbie arcane with 400 hp is able to survive longer than newbie melee with 600-700hp its not good. At least that my opinion.


Second thing - u say good melees are not one-two-shotted in EE.
Well I think u may be wrong.
Example? my monk. Yup, on trsh i do not have problems,
But e.g. in Thorn and Paw the boss DID hurt me... a lot.
Maybe I was unlucky but I was loosing 90% of hp in 2-3 secs.
Even tho I had barskin pot, stoneskin clickkie on, displacement clickie on, earth stance and additional PPR from trinket and antiode wraps set + ninja spy 1 25% inorporeality and 20% dodge and around 90-98 AC and ofc 140-150% fort.
I know AC is not high but... its ninja spy monk - not a tank.
But with all these (which for new players are not easy available) + around 890-900 hp I should not loose all of that in 2-3 secs.
MAYBE I was unlucky - and rolled badly in my dodge, AC, and miss chance check every time.
I stayed alive - cause I had very good healer friend on my back who was spamming heals and cures and scrolls on me all the time but...
I know it was a big effort for him to keep me alive.
So no... I dont think all good melees have no problem with defense :P.

Ape_Man
12-27-2012, 10:39 AM
Not exactly true. Double.

Yeah on most trash mobs they dont BUT - were talking here why divines do not pug - in pug u cant be sure that melee is good because he has 800 hp :P. And this thread is bout pug - u have to agree pug is not always "the best players setup".

Stop pugging with idiots :)

800 HP is good . . . for a ranger or a rogue . . . and HP is NOT "survivability." The glass-cannon "hjeal meh" builds are ****, they've always been **** it's just the game hasn't been hard enough for people to notice until we got to EE.



The thing is every arcane have displacement and every newbie arcane will quickly learn to use that. New melees to be good and not be 1-2 hitted against EE mobs have to first collect a lot of gear, make gs clickies etc :P. It should not be this way.
And if newbie arcane with 400 hp is able to survive longer than newbie melee with 600-700hp its not good. At least that my opinion.

The above mentioned are simply not ready for EE content. Which kinda sucks as we don't have a setting in between EH and EE but it is what it is.

EE is not for newbies.



Second thing - u say good melees are not one-two-shotted in EE.
Well I think u may be wrong.

Bah, I'm never wrong. :)

Definition of good melee = somebody who isn't 2-shotted in EE. If you can't survive in EE you're not experienced enough.

Good players do not 100% rely on others for their survival. Those who get surrounded and die are not good players.



Example? my monk. Yup, on trsh i do not have problems,
But e.g. in Thorn and Paw the boss DID hurt me... a lot.
Maybe I was unlucky but I was loosing 90% of hp in 2-3 secs.
Even tho I had barskin pot, stoneskin clickkie on, displacement clickie on, earth stance and additional PPR from trinket and antiode wraps set + ninja spy 1 25% inorporeality and 20% dodge and around 90-98 AC and ofc 140-150% fort.
I know AC is not high but... its ninja spy monk - not a tank.
But with all these (which for new players are not easy available) + around 890-900 hp I should not loose all of that in 2-3 secs.
MAYBE I was unlucky - and rolled badly in my dodge, AC, and miss chance check every time.
I stayed alive - cause I had very good healer friend on my back who was spamming heals and cures and scrolls on me all the time but...
I know it was a big effort for him to keep me alive.
So no... I dont think all good melees have no problem with defense :P.

Stuff can happen, an unlucky pull, get surrounded, and you will get killed. You just have to change your mindset. You cannot allow yourself to get surrounded, if that happens here's a crazy idea . . . MOVE! The old method of never move and get healed just doesn't work. The mobile people live, those who aren't mobile die.

You need some kind of self healing, you cannot always rely on a healer to get to you in time. Sometimes the incoming damage is too much, standing there and waiting for a heal will get you killed. Jump back and down an SF pot or pop off a heal scroll.

Get some crowd control in your groups. This is key. Held/stunned/tripped mobs don't hit back.

EE is rough but it's nothing smart play cannot overcome. We've done some of the toughest quests int he game without healers or arcanes, you just need to play smart.

Kayla93
12-27-2012, 11:31 AM
Stop pugging with idiots :)

800 HP is good . . . for a ranger or a rogue . . . and HP is NOT "survivability." The glass-cannon "hjeal meh" builds are ****, they've always been **** it's just the game hasn't been hard enough for people to notice until we got to EE.
.
I agree with most.
Besides 1 - move when ure about to die... Honestly - on my divine theres nothing more ****ing off than person jumping out of mass heal or worse... if person jumping out is the one mass is on -and others are probably to die cause of this.
+ kiting boss rangers/arcanes/melees are just the diots in game... at least FOR ME - if there is not need for that and almost all are alive kiting is super-irritating.
Sure... when theres bad situation when others may need trime to get up and go back into fight ... then kite, go ahead. But doing it when all is good is just ****ing of... :P If its not all ranged party.


And the quoted.
1) Thats what I meant. Someone can have 800 hp but die quickier than someone with 500 hp. Accepting people into pug u do no know that. So your advice "stop pugging with idiots" = "stop pugging at all, do quests only qith friends". Thgats what I do and what most divines do also.
And this topic is the answer to people complaining divines do not pug.... I told why were not pugging and your answer is "do not pug then". I dont - and here Im trying to explain why cause this is for what in my feeling this topic is :P.7
2) 800 hp good for rogue/ranger only?
Um... okay... honestly if rogue has 800+ hp Ill wonder how much he had to gimp his dps to get to that.
Yeah with primal scream, tenser transofmation scrolls and other short buffs - sure - rogue/ranger can get that high without gimping himselves. But without short-term/limited usage buffs? If he has 800 standing hp with rage and shippies only for me its gimping toon by taking too much investment into hp.
Rogues with 650-700 standing hp at EE are just fine.


And why Im talking mainly bout EE? Cause other difficulties are like solo :P. So I consider only EE and SOMETIMES EH "a grouping". Cause its really hard to find pug for EN cause even melee + hire can solo it :P./


And sure EE can be done with wise and smart play. I dont say its not.
But its hard to make it good with pug group - with players you do not know.
Thats my answer to why divines are not pugging:
EN - all classes can solo
EH - most of classes can solo, probably all if good built/geared, and its easier to solo than to do in group cause of scaling
EE - divines only heal, if they choose to do some dmg others die in meantime very quickly if u dont go with super-geared players ofc.... But super-geared players are not pug ppl most of time

Oh and u said good melee is melle who do not get 2 shotted in EE. I did not agree and I do not agree.... I showed an example with my monk. That was one time when she got really really unlucky... But it may happen she will get unlucky more times... :P

Seljuck
12-27-2012, 04:07 PM
Kas u must start playing with my wizzy if u want use offensive spells in Ee ;P

Zoda
12-27-2012, 07:31 PM
You also spend alot more in game plat on scrolls/mana pots then most other classes.


Play some e/e self sufficient melee(s) and you'll reconsider this.

I think turbine is doing a good job encouraging players making self sufficient toons (+5 free UMD, more ways to reduce incomming damage than ever, some ED abilities), rather than making OP divines and another bunch of useless melees crying for a babysitter, because... where would that lead?

That said, divines are just OP enough as they are.

psykopeta
12-28-2012, 02:03 AM
clerics and fvs should have storm of vengeance

at least in D&D 3.5 (or so, sorry bad memory lol) it was in the divines' spellbook

that would encourage players to create clr and fvs, that's op, or at least i want it -_-

IMO clerics and fvs are op enough, is hateful to play a more op class, actually in sorc lives and i hate it... why does everythings disappear among explosions? too bad, too op the wf sorc, not funny playing this but want the pl -_-

Kayla93
12-28-2012, 04:22 AM
clerics and fvs should have storm of vengeance

at least in D&D 3.5 (or so, sorry bad memory lol) it was in the divines' spellbook

that would encourage players to create clr and fvs, that's op, or at least i want it -_-

IMO clerics and fvs are op enough, is hateful to play a more op class, actually in sorc lives and i hate it... why does everythings disappear among explosions? too bad, too op the wf sorc, not funny playing this but want the pl -_-

I would not be super happy with storm of veagance. But erathquake... :D
But stop dreaming :P That wont happen. Im almost 99% sure :P.
What would be the point of druid then if fvses/clerics had druids 2 best spells + their spells + better healing. Not gonna happen. Sadly :P.