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View Full Version : Echoes of Power: All classes or just a few?



Quetzacoala
06-11-2012, 02:02 PM
Do you feel that Echoes of Power should be available to all classes with spellcasting abilities or just to the 'primary' spellcasters?

I feel that any class with the ability to cast spells should possess the Echoes of Power feat; it is very useful, but no so useful as to be gamebreaking to apply it to all classes.

What do you think?

madmaxhunter
06-11-2012, 02:11 PM
That would include ranger. Turbine hates ranger. If you were to say all spell-casting classes except ranger, then maybe Turbine would listen.

seriously though, /signed

BOgre
06-11-2012, 02:28 PM
/signed.

Never did understand why Rangers failed to qualify for this.

msdesign
06-11-2012, 02:40 PM
I have a sorc and a pali, among other toons. While I do think sorc, wizzys, clerics, fav souls must have this feat, the other more melee and fighting oriented classes should not.

Spellcasters depend on spell points to fight and stay alive. Rangers do not. Rangers can do lots of stuff with no spell points at all. Paladins too, they don't need Echoes of Power.

Clerics and fav souls can also do damage with no spells, as they have a melee fighting thing. But they need spell power for they are most needed: healing.

So, according to the perspective of "all classes should have Echoes of Power", I would say arcane casters should have healing spells too. It sucks depending on others to be healed, and heal pots are not of optimal use during a fight. Still I understand the game mechanism and adapt myself to it. Arcane spellcasters don't heal, and fighting type classes don't have Echoes of Power. Simple.

/not signed

Kawai
06-11-2012, 02:50 PM
Actually, playing either a Ranger, or a Kensai AA, or a 10kPonk AA... it really, truly doesnt matter. Tons of spellpoints for what is actually useable in game... i can see where it should really only apply to Primary Casters.
And while Rangers & Ranged in general dont seem to get much luv, in this case i can't complain. :confused:

Quetzacoala
06-11-2012, 03:07 PM
That would include ranger. Turbine hates ranger. If you were to say all spell-casting classes except ranger, then maybe Turbine would listen.

seriously though, /signed

Unfortunately, if I proposed that rangers would not receive Echoes of Power, I would discover what it feels like to be on the receiving end of manyshot...

Lleren
06-11-2012, 03:22 PM
Echoes of Power and Echoes of Hit Points both make just as much sense given to all, as they do given to some, or given to none.

Echoes of Hit Points doesn't exist you say? Funny that.

BOgre
06-11-2012, 03:35 PM
12 SP back, to a 2k-3k SP 'Primary' bluebar is pittance. It's there for drastic emergency measures. Last ditch attempt to bring the party's stones to a shrine.

12 SP back to a 300-500 SP Ranger is no different. Emergency dash to a Shrine maybe.

Don't see ANY good reason to deny them.

Quetzacoala
06-11-2012, 04:13 PM
I have a sorc and a pali, among other toons. While I do think sorc, wizzys, clerics, fav souls must have this feat, the other more melee and fighting oriented classes should not.

Spellcasters depend on spell points to fight and stay alive. Rangers do not. Rangers can do lots of stuff with no spell points at all. Paladins too, they don't need Echoes of Power.

Clerics and fav souls can also do damage with no spells, as they have a melee fighting thing. But they need spell power for they are most needed: healing.

So, according to the perspective of "all classes should have Echoes of Power", I would say arcane casters should have healing spells too. It sucks depending on others to be healed, and heal pots are not of optimal use during a fight. Still I understand the game mechanism and adapt myself to it. Arcane spellcasters don't heal, and fighting type classes don't have Echoes of Power. Simple.

/not signed

You make the point that spellcasters depend on spell points to fight and stay alive; every single class that has the ability to cast spells is able to heal themselves in one way or another with their spell points, and so therefore should have access to Echoes of Power by this reasoning.

You also claim that arcane casters should have access to healing spells as well do the fact that it is annoying to have to rely upon others for healing; very few casters do not have access to self healing in some form or another. Wizards are typically either pale masters or are warforged archmages, both of which can heal themselves. Warforged sorcerers can repair themselves while non-warforged sorcerers can use UMD on heal scrolls or can be half-elves and take a Favored Soul dilettante.

My point is that all of the classes that have been denied Echoes of Power could use it for emergency heals or minor buffs; it is not groundbreaking at all.

EpiKagEMO
06-11-2012, 05:12 PM
I think Echoes of powers should stay the way it is-applying to primary spell casters.
Why? It would be too cheap, to have a ranger or paladin with healing amp, and keeps healing for +100s and drinks a serious pot for +50. thats 150 HP every 3 seconds(healing wise).

You can always mix in a splash of a primary casting class.
maybe 18 Pal 1 fight 1 sorc?

However, later on, it should not matter even the slightest matter. If your depending on Echoes of power to save a party levels 12-20... your better off drinking.

Rumbaar
06-11-2012, 05:14 PM
As all characters will have a blue bar if they have a blue bar ability, echo should and will affect all players. You can't give everyone a blue bar and not give them that ability, as all are arcane it seems.

Tshober
06-11-2012, 05:25 PM
My understanding of the purpose of echoes of power was to prevent the spellcasting classes from being totally useless when they ran out of SP. There is no rational way to argue that a paladin or ranger or artificer is totally useless when they are out of SP. But that argument can certainly be made for a mage and could possibly be made for a cleric or fvs (depending on their build). So limiting echoes of power just to mages and clerics and fvs makes logical sense, given the premise that its purpose is to prevent them from becoming totally useless.

If you want to expand echoes of power to include additional classes, then you are essentially arguing that its purpose should be more than what I beleive it was originally intended to be. I see no compelling reason to expand the purpose of echoes of power beyond its original purpose, which I believe is to prevent characters from becomming totally useless when they run out of SP.

/not signed

msdesign
06-11-2012, 05:28 PM
You make the point that spellcasters depend on spell points to fight and stay alive; every single class that has the ability to cast spells is able to heal themselves in one way or another with their spell points, and so therefore should have access to Echoes of Power by this reasoning.

You also claim that arcane casters should have access to healing spells as well do the fact that it is annoying to have to rely upon others for healing; very few casters do not have access to self healing in some form or another. Wizards are typically either pale masters or are warforged archmages, both of which can heal themselves. Warforged sorcerers can repair themselves while non-warforged sorcerers can use UMD on heal scrolls or can be half-elves and take a Favored Soul dilettante.

My point is that all of the classes that have been denied Echoes of Power could use it for emergency heals or minor buffs; it is not groundbreaking at all.

Using scrolls is ability point consuming. I've tried and can't get my UMD high enough to use the lowest heal scroll. And honestly, using scrolls is no better than using pots. I prefer to have a 100 pot stack instead a pack of scrolls. That is my current method for my own healing, when I need, a stack of pots to use when no healer is around.

Anyway, what is better, for in-fight gameplay? Having to click 2 times on the scroll icon (and revert back to my spell damage 2 hand staff), or clicking on the pots icon every few seconds?

And NO, I do NOT defend arcane spell casters should have healing spells. Maybe I'm too used to Elder Scrolls, where every character has its own heal spells, whatever class it is. But this is DDO, another universe, another gameplay style and concept.

NO. I do think things are ok as they are. I was just giving an example for comparison only.

Another way to look at my point:

Take a sorc and a ranger. One at a time, inside a dungeon, full of mobs - you name it - kobolds, hobgoblins, minotaurs, whatsoever. Can the sorc deal with them using only spell points? Yes, they are born for that stuff. Can the sorc do it without spell points / using melee only? Depends on the class, but lets say hardly, to be nice here.

Now, the ranger, can he/she deal with all the mobs using only spell points? At lower levels, no, they don't even have spellpoints before lvl 4, if I'm not wrong here. At higher levels, I can't say for sure, but I doubt they can (I assume they only have buffs and such spells, correct me if wrong). But can this ranger clean the dungeon without using spell points at all? Yes, surely.

Got the idea, or do I need to make a drawing?

Quetzacoala
06-11-2012, 06:33 PM
Using scrolls is ability point consuming. I've tried and can't get my UMD high enough to use the lowest heal scroll. And honestly, using scrolls is no better than using pots. I prefer to have a 100 pot stack instead a pack of scrolls. That is my current method for my own healing, when I need, a stack of pots to use when no healer is around.

Anyway, what is better, for in-fight gameplay? Having to click 2 times on the scroll icon (and revert back to my spell damage 2 hand staff), or clicking on the pots icon every few seconds?

And NO, I do NOT defend arcane spell casters should have healing spells. Maybe I'm too used to Elder Scrolls, where every character has its own heal spells, whatever class it is. But this is DDO, another universe, another gameplay style and concept.

NO. I do think things are ok as they are. I was just giving an example for comparison only.

Another way to look at my point:

Take a sorc and a ranger. One at a time, inside a dungeon, full of mobs - you name it - kobolds, hobgoblins, minotaurs, whatsoever. Can the sorc deal with them using only with spell points? Yes, they are born for that stuff. Can the sorc do it without spell points / using melee only? Depends on the class, but lets say hardly, to be nice here.

Now, the ranger, can he/she deal with all the mobs using only spell points? At lower levels, no, they don't even have spellpoints before lvl 4, if I'm not wrong here. At higher levels, I can't say, but I doubt they can (I assume they only have buffs and such spells, correct me if wrong). Can they clean the dungeon without using spell points at all? Yes, surely.

Got the idea, or do I need to make a drawing?

First of all, I apologize about suggesting that you had made the suggestion that arcane casters should receive healing spells; I should have realized that this was simply a comparison.

For the second example... you have a point, I will concede that. What I am trying to say is that all of the classes could use Echoes of Power and it would not be overpowered, it would simply be a last resort ability.

Farayon
06-11-2012, 06:40 PM
Echoes of power is a horrible design failure and should be removed completely from the game.

I'm saying that as someone playing only characters with the magical training feat.

msdesign
06-11-2012, 06:40 PM
I just think the concept of Echoes of Power is lost, the moment everybody with spell points has it.

Look at bards, for example. They can cast spells without having an arcane spell failure because of using armor. Thats a bonus for them, a minus for casters. Bards don't have EoP, and casters are limited in protection. Its a trade-off and balancing system.

Its this type of game mechanics that makes classes distinct and balanced. IMHO.

keveniaftw
06-12-2012, 04:47 AM
Do I want echoes of power on my monk? Sure!
Oh, wasn't this the question?
Whatever, just give me free ki when low on it :p

Silverwren
06-12-2012, 09:19 AM
I run a level 20 Arcane Archer, and have yet to actually run out of SP in a quest. So no, I don't think Rangers need this.

Healers however? Yeah, good idea!

Ravoc-DDO
06-12-2012, 02:01 PM
/signed.

Give it to all bluebar toons or remove it from the game entirely.

Xynot2
06-12-2012, 02:04 PM
I have a sorc and a pali, among other toons. While I do think sorc, wizzys, clerics, fav souls must have this feat, the other more melee and fighting oriented classes should not.

Spellcasters depend on spell points to fight and stay alive. Rangers do not. Rangers can do lots of stuff with no spell points at all. Paladins too, they don't need Echoes of Power.

Clerics and fav souls can also do damage with no spells, as they have a melee fighting thing. But they need spell power for they are most needed: healing.

So, according to the perspective of "all classes should have Echoes of Power", I would say arcane casters should have healing spells too. It sucks depending on others to be healed, and heal pots are not of optimal use during a fight. Still I understand the game mechanism and adapt myself to it. Arcane spellcasters don't heal, and fighting type classes don't have Echoes of Power. Simple.

/not signed

Acanes DO heal... repair, aura... and are the single most OP class in the game. Give it to everyone and level the playing field.

PinkDragonJr
06-13-2012, 07:15 AM
In my opinion it should be removed from all classes. But then if my opinion mattered enemies would not have unlimited spell points.