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View Full Version : Displacement Change: Why not True Seeing?



Eladiun
06-11-2012, 10:43 AM
I don't get this change. Most bosses and most end game content the MoB's have True Seeing so Displacement is useless anyway. If you found situation where Displacement was trivializing content, isn't the more fluid way to give some of the mobs in that area True Sight rather than this hack solution?

voodoogroves
06-11-2012, 10:44 AM
I don't get this change. Most bosses and most end game content the MoB's have True Seeing so Displacement is useless anyway. If you found situation where Displacement was trivializing content, isn't the more fluid way to give some of the mobs in that area True Sight rather than this hack solution?

Give vermin tremor sense.

Have a chance that equipment-wearing mobs spawn with random immunity/abilities scaled based on mob CR and difficulty.



Makes so many things more fun and varied.

Ape_Man
06-11-2012, 10:48 AM
I don't get this change. Most bosses and most end game content the MoB's have True Seeing so Displacement is useless anyway. If you found situation where Displacement was trivializing content, isn't the more fluid way to give some of the mobs in that area True Sight rather than this hack solution?

What he said.

Violith
06-11-2012, 12:29 PM
hopefully their plan is to remove trueseeing for all the trash mobs, I dunno about you but only like two or my toons have an item that has true seeing (spyglass from the cove), having every single drow out there in the forest with true seeing is abit much, pretty much makes going there with my caster useless since his form of defense isnt usable there.

dubyprime
06-11-2012, 12:35 PM
It has been a growing trend for more and more monster in epic content to have true seeing.
I don't understand this change either.

Destinies, new gear, etc will already trivialize older content. I don't see how displacement is particularly changes this.

Thrudh
06-11-2012, 12:45 PM
I don't get this change. Most bosses and most end game content the MoB's have True Seeing so Displacement is useless anyway. If you found situation where Displacement was trivializing content, isn't the more fluid way to give some of the mobs in that area True Sight rather than this hack solution?

If you do that, then you just nerf the spell completely.

Right now, at least, it's still useful to bards/wizards/sorcs (who have poor AC, PRR, and Dodge)

Note also the change isn't too bad for all of us melee who have Shroud displacement clickables (Shh... maybe the devs forgot about those).

Self-cast doesn't bother me at all... Go run the Shroud a few times. True Seeing on trash mobs is much harsher nerf.

Eladiun
06-11-2012, 12:59 PM
If you do that, then you just nerf the spell completely.

Right now, at least, it's still useful to bards/wizards/sorcs (who have poor AC, PRR, and Dodge)

Note also the change isn't too bad for all of us melee who have Shroud displacement clickables (Shh... maybe the devs forgot about those).

Self-cast doesn't bother me at all... Go run the Shroud a few times. True Seeing on trash mobs is much harsher nerf.


Most Good Casters who have Torc and ConOp use Displace rarely so they already effectively nerfed the spell completely.

The question is why the change? The logic behind it must be that in certain situations with the new AC formula Displace made content overly trivial.

My statement wasn't to give all MOBs True Seeing but to use it where necessary. Some MOB's in the group have it. Hell, any level 16 player can grind it out. We can actually have it at level 5. So, how is it that CR25 trash doesn't.

Improving MOB AI and gear rather than just nerfing the spell and effects. make the game harder and more challenging by addition rather than subtraction. MOB AI in this game is a joke. Rather than investing effort into changing old gear, nerfing and etc. Invest that effort into improving the MOBs.

Every patch strategy and diversity is eroded.

Sarisa
06-11-2012, 01:24 PM
I can think of four places (possibly six, depending on how you count them) off the top of my head where this will matter.

eDeeps, the Demon of the Frenzied Blood. Currently, he does not have TS, and Displacement on the tank makes a big difference on the damage taken by the tank.

eDA, Turigulon. Baktor counts too, but between his teleport spamming (even with Invis tricks), and his spell casting, Displacement doesn't make as much difference as in healing the Turigulon tank.

eChrono. The Orthon bosses currently (unless it changed in u13) do not have TS. I don't remember if the Combined Abishai Devestator has TS. If you are using a tank to keep the majority of damage centred on one person, it does help, especially in weaker DPS groups.

Elite Amrath, in all but the best groups. Without Displacement in live, even with excellent CC, stuns, etc., the amount of healing I have to do is very noticeable compared to when we have Displacement. Without Displacement in the update, it will go up even with the "new AC" changes reducing incoming damage.

Thrudh
06-11-2012, 02:18 PM
Most Good Casters who have Torc and ConOp use Displace rarely so they already effectively nerfed the spell completely.

Right now, every melee who has a Shroud clickable or two has not experienced much of a nerf. Your idea is more of a nerf than making displacement self-cast.

Ivan_Milic
06-11-2012, 02:27 PM
Giving ts to more mobs would be bigger nerf.

Chai
06-11-2012, 02:37 PM
Right now, every melee who has a Shroud clickable or two has not experienced much of a nerf. Your idea is more of a nerf than making displacement self-cast.

Displacement was better as a buff to others when others were willing to play the role of aggro magnet. In epics, Id put it on our barb and he can take all the aggro while the rest of us beat on mobs getting the flanking bonus and dont take damage.

The fact that the game is monte haul enough where you can have a displacement clicky per 20 runs (60 days) or so is not relevant to the spell itself being nerfed. Telling everyone to just blow 15 LDS so we can keep an effective buff up doesnt really solve the REAL ISSUE here. Ive always felt there needs to be MORE of a reason to play as a team and not less. Making this self only means theres less of a reason to play as a team.

Thrudh
06-11-2012, 02:41 PM
Displacement was better as a buff to others when others were willing to play the role of aggro magnet. In epics, Id put it on our barb and he can take all the aggro while the rest of us beat on mobs getting the flanking bonus and dont take damage.

The fact that the game is monte haul enough where you can have a displacement clicky per 20 runs (60 days) or so is not relevant to the spell itself being nerfed. Telling everyone to just blow 15 LDS so we can keep an effective buff up doesnt really solve the REAL ISSUE here. Ive always felt there needs to be MORE of a reason to play as a team and not less. Making this self only means theres less of a reason to play as a team.

Oh, I'm not FOR displacement being self-cast... I just think the idea of giving TS to more mobs is more of a nerf than self-cast displacement.

However, I can also see why the devs are doing it... With all the new Dodge and AC and PRR and Ghostly bonuses, stacking on a 50% displacement is pretty powerful...

Especially on a barbarian who could ALSO activate a 50% stacking Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Cyr
06-11-2012, 02:46 PM
Especially on a barbarian who could ALSO activate a 50% stacking Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Short term buffs on long cooldowns are almost the definition of irrelevant for balancing concerns.

Thrudh
06-11-2012, 02:49 PM
Short term buffs on long cooldowns are almost the definition of irrelevant for balancing concerns.

Maybe for balancing boss fights.

But not true for the rest of the dungeon... 50% stacking miss is absolutely huge, even if short-lived... 30 seconds is plenty of time to handle a big fight or get a bad emergency situation back under control.

Cyr
06-11-2012, 03:00 PM
Maybe for balancing boss fights.

But not true for the rest of the dungeon... 50% stacking miss is absolutely huge, even if short-lived... 30 seconds is plenty of time to handle a big fight or get a bad emergency situation back under control.

lol, only if the barb has agro of like 20 mobs would it matter...what are there no casters on your server?

My server it plays like this...

Zerg flat out right past trash mobs.

Get enough to nuke/aoe dot and destroy.

Melee is largely irrelevant in these fights.

Get to boss. Melee gets to tank some and do some consistent dps over very long boss fights where casters run out of steam unless they down pots.

Magictones
06-11-2012, 03:18 PM
Just hope the devs make sure to apply this to mobs as well.

Elite Hobs comes to mind.

Thrudh
06-11-2012, 03:24 PM
lol, only if the barb has agro of like 20 mobs would it matter...what are there no casters on your server?

My server it plays like this...

Zerg flat out right past trash mobs.

Get enough to nuke/aoe dot and destroy.

Melee is largely irrelevant in these fights.

Get to boss. Melee gets to tank some and do some consistent dps over very long boss fights where casters run out of steam unless they down pots.

Every group on your server plays like that? Or just your static/guild/channel groups? Either way, how boring.

Me, I PUG and I take the first 5 that come along. Sometimes we don't have a caster or a healer (gasp!). We usually play the dungeons straight up, killing most of the stuff along the way...

50% dodge bonus will be HUGE for most players, and along with PRR from armor will make typical barbarian much more survivable. Throw in a ghostly item, and a displacement clickable, and a well-geared barbarian won't need hardly any healing at all.

SoloPhalanx
06-11-2012, 03:33 PM
Telling everyone to just blow 15 LDS

Displacement is a tier 2 effect, which means it should cost about 100k plat to do.

EDIT: I'm saying 100k if you want to buy the base ingredients to make the GS item, slapping smalls and mediums is virtually free

Chai
06-11-2012, 03:44 PM
Displacement is a tier 2 effect, which means it should cost about 100k plat to do.

EDIT: I'm saying 100k if you want to buy the base ingredients to make the GS item, slapping smalls and mediums is virtually free

Ok, so it even MORE monte haul then, and somehow that completely justifies it?

I dont agree.

And in my groups, I dont always use my displace clicky on myself anyhow - I use it on the aggro magnet, then the rest of us beat on the mobs getting SA to-hit and damage bonus. Stuff dies faster and less people take damage.

This is just one more step toward the "every person for themselves" mentality this game is moving dangerously close to.

Cyr
06-11-2012, 03:48 PM
Every group on your server plays like that? Or just your static/guild/channel groups? Either way, how boring.

Me, I PUG and I take the first 5 that come along. Sometimes we don't have a caster or a healer (gasp!). We usually play the dungeons straight up, killing most of the stuff along the way...

50% dodge bonus will be HUGE for most players, and along with PRR from armor will make typical barbarian much more survivable. Throw in a ghostly item, and a displacement clickable, and a well-geared barbarian won't need hardly any healing at all.

Why in the world does it matter how uber something is in a slow run with a bad party makeup?

Balance for possible OP considerations is about balancing for the top end, not your slow paced strolls.

That is not meant as a dig at slow paced runs, but as a common sense statement about perspective of worrying about OP things in runs where players are pushing things to breaking already.

Chai
06-11-2012, 03:50 PM
Every group on your server plays like that? Or just your static/guild/channel groups? Either way, how boring.

Me, I PUG and I take the first 5 that come along. Sometimes we don't have a caster or a healer (gasp!). We usually play the dungeons straight up, killing most of the stuff along the way...

50% dodge bonus will be HUGE for most players, and along with PRR from armor will make typical barbarian much more survivable. Throw in a ghostly item, and a displacement clickable, and a well-geared barbarian won't need hardly any healing at all.

So this barbarian you keep bringing up as an example, in order, is:

1. Canceling their rage, when they arent madstoned - which means not using madstone.
2. Swapping over a gear item.
3. Clicking a displace clicky.
4. Swapping the gear item back to what they normally have slotted.
5. Hitting their barbarian rage.
6. Hitting their frenzies.
7. Using the ramaining 20-25 seconds of displacement they have left to...
8. Realize the mobs are already dead because people that didnt have to do the gear swap dance killed them all.

Fantastic - this nerf not only makes us manage our inventories like we never had to before, but it also invalidates other gear (in this case, madstone boots) if we want to benefit from displace.

Im not for the TS suggestion. I feel this shouldnt be nerfed in the first place.

Rumbaar
06-11-2012, 05:35 PM
Right now, every melee who has a Shroud clickable or two has not experienced much of a nerf. Your idea is more of a nerf than making displacement self-cast.This, GS clicky. Just makes more clicking and taking the need to ask an arcane. Well it will hurt the new player and non-TR ... so that's good ... NOT!

SoloPhalanx
06-11-2012, 08:39 PM
Ok, so it even MORE monte haul then, and somehow that completely justifies it?

I dont agree.

And in my groups, I dont always use my displace clicky on myself anyhow - I use it on the aggro magnet, then the rest of us beat on the mobs getting SA to-hit and damage bonus. Stuff dies faster and less people take damage.

This is just one more step toward the "every person for themselves" mentality this game is moving dangerously close to.

Oh, I feel this one is almost as bad as the Wail change, as at least that one had a reason behind it, to satisfy the gimpy melees, while this one is just an example of "What can we do today to make them rage and forget about all the other **** we're doing?". Was just pointing out that the clicky is relatively easy to obtain, although it is in no way reliable for longer quests, so not a real option imo.

Thrudh
06-11-2012, 09:23 PM
So this barbarian you keep bringing up as an example, in order, is:

1. Canceling their rage, when they arent madstoned - which means not using madstone.
2. Swapping over a gear item.
3. Clicking a displace clicky.
4. Swapping the gear item back to what they normally have slotted.
5. Hitting their barbarian rage.
6. Hitting their frenzies.
7. Using the ramaining 20-25 seconds of displacement they have left to...
8. Realize the mobs are already dead because people that didnt have to do the gear swap dance killed them all.

Fantastic - this nerf not only makes us manage our inventories like we never had to before, but it also invalidates other gear (in this case, madstone boots) if we want to benefit from displace.

Im not for the TS suggestion. I feel this shouldnt be nerfed in the first place.

(1) I don't madstone when fighting trash anyway
(2) Shroud displacement clickables last 1:30
(3) I know when a big fight is coming up; Very easy to prep displacement for it.
(4) These tactics keep my barbarian in pretty good shape NOW. Add in a 50% dodge clickable plus armor PRR, and he's going to be pretty solid.

So solid, that the devs probably thought it was too much, and made displacement self-cast... Well, I don't have unlimited self-cast displacement, so I'll have to be careful to use it efficiently.

Ivan_Milic
06-12-2012, 08:42 AM
You all forgot a good thing about this nerf,divines wont whine on forums anymore about displace being cast on them when they dont want it(torc,conc). :D
Also I play my barb epics all the time,I get displaced maybe like 1 out of 100 quests I do(doing only epics and raids).

Eladiun
06-12-2012, 09:38 AM
(3) I know when a big fight is coming up; Very easy to prep displacement for it.


...and there in lies one of the biggest flaws in the game. There is no randomness to the encounters. If the dungeons, had a small level of randomization and the MOB AI was smarter many of these balance issues would be inconsequential.

If the ambush wasn't always at point A and the same groups of MOBs didn't spawn and behave the exact same way difficult would increase without the need for constant adjustments.

DarkSable
06-15-2012, 02:08 PM
Have a chance that equipment-wearing mobs spawn with random immunity/abilities scaled based on mob CR and difficulty..
Oohh, I like that...
(But then, I'm the one always aiming for random-gen everything to keep the game going strong.)