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Indoran
06-10-2012, 01:26 PM
So the +1 tactics may still be solid... but what will happen to the +1 to hit? (my character copy failed so I cant see)

It should be +5% to hit to make it worth it... +1 to hit has been seriously nerfed

Sarnind
06-10-2012, 01:31 PM
So the +1 tactics may still be solid... but what will happen to the +1 to hit? (my character copy failed so I cant see)

It should be +5% to hit to make it worth it... +1 to hit has been seriously nerfed

i m agree with u but 3 fighter past life it s +15%, seems too powerful... for me the right compromise is 2% or 2.5%

Aalric
06-10-2012, 01:53 PM
I agree - the past life needs to be changed - it's a slap in the face to anyone who put the time & effort into doing a fighter TR, especially mutiple ones.

The problem is, this isn't the only thing that needs to be changed. Weapon focus anyone?

The new system breaks a lot of stuff - bit like a bull in a china shop

Indoran
06-10-2012, 03:39 PM
yes weapon focus is now more than ever simply a requisite for weapon specialization which is no longer so cool since you are not hitting as often...

so these changes most impact also those melee feats that are affected as to translate into less dps...

maybe 5% to hit is too much in the new system but +1 may even translate into less than 1%

Recared
06-10-2012, 06:08 PM
5% for past life fighter passive seems not excessive to me, as it was what it was adding in cases where it mattered.

However, and to be fair, 15% plus to hit is maybe a little bit too good because we now get a +25% to hit no matter what (if I recall correctly, a bit too tired to find the formula right now). I would welcome something like 3-6-10% increase for having 1-2 or 3 past lifes (10% bonus maximum possible total).

era42
06-11-2012, 03:04 AM
5% now is different from 5% after expansion.

Seriously, most builds against most monsters are hitting on 2 without fighter past life. Yes, the +1 is small enough to be a total 'meh', but saying the current version actually gives 5% to hit is pushing it, at most it does that only on the first hit of the chain. So, even the +1 will often do more than what it currently does.

Sure, some low to-hit builds benefits from that, but they already hit comparatively better than before, as the effect of +to-hit will be less profound.

Still, even if the +1 helps, the effect is so minor that the most important thing about fighter past life will be to skip it or to use it for completionist requirement.

Vulgari
06-11-2012, 05:00 AM
Maybe instead of restricting ourselves to what the bonus to-hit should be, we can open up the possibilities to something else. Especially if to-hit against monsters becomes less of an issue with the new AC system.

For example, what if the past life granted a 1% doublestrike that stacked with all other doublestrike bonuses to include itself (up to the 3 time max) and the Fighter capstone?

Not sure if 1% in this case would be to high or low.
It wouldn't benefit ranged so that could be an issue for some.

Emili
06-11-2012, 05:12 AM
Maybe instead of restricting ourselves to what the bonus to-hit should be, we can open up the possibilities to something else. Especially if to-hit against monsters becomes less of an issue with the new AC system.

For example, what if the past life granted a 1% doublestrike that stacked with all other doublestrike bonuses to include itself (up to the 3 time max) and the Fighter capstone?

Not sure if 1% in this case would be to high or low.
It wouldn't benefit ranged so that could be an issue for some.

1% is an extra attack every hundred, x3 bring that sown to thirty-three. It does not benefit ranged and likewise neither do the tactical benefits of a fighter PL.

MRMechMan
06-11-2012, 08:11 AM
5% chance to-hit would be too much under the current system. Far too much.

For a +65 to-hit melee vs an 80 AC mob (72% chance to hit) to get to the same as a character with 3 fighter PLs (87% chance to hit), they would need a +90 to-hit. Those fighter past lives are the same as the following effects for to-hit:

Eravens sight (4)
+4 cannith crafted (4)
Imp sundered (5)
flanking (2)
power surge (4)
SA +5 item (5)
bless (1)

Combined

So 5% stacking 3x would be too much. But the current +1 to-hit is nothing. Maybe make it a stacking 2% chance to-hit (still a lot). This new "based on 100" system really means every to-hit effect needs a major look at.

voodoogroves
06-11-2012, 08:42 AM
I'm sorry; I'm not following.


Why are we not wanting to give a serious boost to those fighters that earned it? Are we afraid they may catch casters somehow?


Peoples ... all the "don't nerf casters, buff melee" threads are talking about this kind of stuff. A wizard past life is HUGE for any caster. Any reason a fighter past life can't be too but for melees?


I honestly don't think this breaks anything at all at 5%.

Stillwaters
06-11-2012, 09:26 AM
I honestly don't think this breaks anything at all at 5%.

Well there's catching up, and there's OMFG broken~

We currently have +25% so with 0 bab you hit on a 16+
if you stacked 3 fighter past lives at 5% each you would hit on a 13+
With precision 5% you now hit on a 12+
If you were using a ranged wep and had point blank shot its another +5%
now you hit on 11+ (50%) with no base attack (+0 to hit) vs any ac in the game
all for 2 feats you can take @ lvl 1 (with 3 ftr past lives)

+5% is too strong, +1 is too weak!!

This is the story with nearly every feat, spell buff, enhancement, and item,
let alone attack stat modifier (if it didnt add to damage ie dex and int builds)

They are going to be rebalancing this for months if not years to come

voodoogroves
06-11-2012, 09:58 AM
Well there's catching up, and there's OMFG broken~


Yeah, but bear with me ... quantify "OMFG"? Will multi-fighter past lives be at the absolute top of the heap now?

Or will they still be behind the multi-wiz-life casters?

MRMechMan
06-11-2012, 10:06 AM
Yeah, but bear with me ... quantify "OMFG"? Will multi-fighter past lives be at the absolute top of the heap now?

Or will they still be behind the multi-wiz-life casters?

I would consider 3 PL being equal to +25 to hit to be "OMFG" broken.

But 3 PL being equal to 2-3% more to-hit is just as broken.

You are comparing it to the wrong thing, that is a completely different issue.

voodoogroves
06-11-2012, 10:10 AM
You are comparing it to the wrong thing, that is a completely different issue.

I don't think I am comparing it to the wrong thing.

I also think that while you've given numbers and shown how X is larger than Y, you not convinced me at all that X is too much (and OMFG-so).


*WHY* is 5% per too much? *WHAT* is the real impact to the game, game play, etc. that this breaks?

Stillwaters
06-11-2012, 10:16 AM
*WHY* is 5% per too much? *WHAT* is the real impact to the game, game play, etc. that this breaks?

Dude i just showed you a toon that can hit an epic GOD with a bijillion AC, 1/2 of the time with 0 BAB at lvl 1 and you don't see broken???

To quote the movie SEVEN:
I've been trying to figure something in my head, and maybe you can help me out, yeah? When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading "Guns and Ammo", playing* in your own feces, do you just stop and go, "Wow! It is amazing how dang* crazy I really am!"? Yeah. Do you guys do that?

You know im j/k right

Hey if you think we can do it then why bother with to hit rolls at all? its not like we're playing dnd with d20s anyway.

voodoogroves
06-11-2012, 10:22 AM
Dude i just showed you a toon that can hit an epic GOD with a bijillion AC, 1/2 of the time with 0 BAB at lvl 1 and you don't see broken???

To quote the movie SEVEN:
I've been trying to figure something in my head, and maybe you can help me out, yeah? When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading "Guns and Ammo", playing* in your own feces, do you just stop and go, "Wow! It is amazing how dang* crazy I really am!"? Yeah. Do you guys do that?

You know im j/k right

Hey if you think we can do it then why bother with to hit rolls at all? its not like we're playing dnd with d20s anyway.

The diminishing returns system is lame and can demonstrate stupid artifacts of math ;-)

How often will your use-case present itself?

At 20, is that 4x life fighter ahead or behind the first life sorc in boss DPS, assuming similar gearing?

Stillwaters
06-11-2012, 10:31 AM
The diminishing returns system is lame and can demonstrate stupid artifacts of math ;-)

How often will your use-case present itself?

At 20, is that 4x life fighter ahead or behind the first life sorc in boss DPS, assuming similar gearing?

Holy **** you were serious..

ok im tired so ill play along

depends on the boss, and the sorc :D


AFAIK energy immunities exist yet melee immunities dont.
Evasion exists for bosses yet dodge doesnt quite do it for melee.

assume our pun-pun doesnt sack to hit and goes barb to raise his STR over100, nothing but DPS and crits i can see him getting quite far ahead, depending on boss
I know the pun pun would be taking more damage than the sorc tho :D

MRMechMan
06-11-2012, 10:38 AM
I don't think I am comparing it to the wrong thing.

I also think that while you've given numbers and shown how X is larger than Y, you not convinced me at all that X is too much (and OMFG-so).


*WHY* is 5% per too much? *WHAT* is the real impact to the game, game play, etc. that this breaks?

It breaks grinding for gear AND buffing/debuffing.

When a naked unboosted 3 fighter PL is equal to a first life fighter with Eravens sight set (4), +4 cannith crafted/spectral gloves (4) and SA +5 item (5) and is using Imp sunder (5), flanking (2), power surge (4), asked the divine for bless (1)...

it effectively makes to-hit gear/buffs incredibly unimportant. There is just no point in grinding for to-hit gear, getting GH, bless, using sunder, etc. That *IS* broken. Breaking EVERY character that bothers to do what SHOULD matter and telling them all of a sudden that it just doesn't matter IS a bad system. Link 3 fighter PLs or don't join.

On the flip side, if it only gives +1, it is meaningless. 4.3million XP to get .5-1% more chance to hit is just as bad.

There needs to be a middle ground, as I said before.

The melee-arcane issue is totally different. It IS a huge issue but it is also a different one. *reads thread title* Yes, please stay on topic, no matter how rabid sorcs/wizards make you.

voodoogroves
06-11-2012, 10:39 AM
Holy **** you were serious..

ok im tired so ill play along

depends on the boss, and the sorc :D


AFAIK energy immunities exist yet melee immunities dont.
Evasion exists for bosses yet dodge doesnt quite do it for melee.

assume our pun-pun doesnt sack to hit and goes barb to raise his STR over100, nothing but DPS and crits i can see him getting quite far ahead, depending on boss

haha only moderately serious


... but ...


If we can maybe imagine a theorhetical case where this might allow the multi-life fighter to catch a sorc, provided the sorc is maybe looking at an evasion boss with resistance to their key damage types and then maybe only a barb with those lives can eventually get ahead ....

... that doesn't sound like "OMFG broken" to me, and more like "thank god"

;-)

Phidius
06-11-2012, 10:47 AM
I don't think I am comparing it to the wrong thing.
...

A melee with the fighter PL should be compared to a melee that lacks the PL, not to a completely different class and play style.

Attempting to balance one feature of a game around something that you feel (presumably) is unbalanced simply results in more imbalance.

voodoogroves
06-11-2012, 10:50 AM
A melee with the fighter PL should be compared to a melee that lacks the PL, not to a completely different class and play style.

Attempting to balance one feature of a game around something that you feel (presumably) is unbalanced simply results in more imbalance.

It's clear that it should be "better" to have the PL.

I think cross-class comparisons are useful, especially since we've got a matrix (past life, if any ... current life, etc.). Does this make a fighter PL as useful for a melee as a wizard PL is for any caster?


This isn't a "balance" question with only two individual factors; the game is far more complex than that.



(EDIT and just so I'm clear - you're only talking about the framing of the comparison; there's no implied opinion on your part that it is or isn't OMFG-broken?)

MRMechMan
06-11-2012, 10:57 AM
It's clear that it should be "better" to have the PL.

I think cross-class comparisons are useful, especially since we've got a matrix (past life, if any ... current life, etc.). Does this make a fighter PL as useful for a melee as a wizard PL is for any caster?

.

Obviously it should be *better* to have the past life. But how much better? I feel on live it is balanced.

Making it roughly the equivelent of +8 to hit (8x more powerful) would be too much.

Making it do .5%-1% more hits (1/5 to 1/10 as powerful) would be far too little.

Comparing it to a wizard PL? Well if you are already at 32ish spell pen (possible with zero PLs), any more is not incredibly useful unless you want to wail epic drow...and then you need to fully spec to do that...and we will see in 2 weeks if wail is even useful for that.

You really should be comparing it as fighter PL vs no fighter PL...dragging casters in to muddy the waters and say fighter PL should be buffed 8x what it is because sorcs are shiney is not condusive to a good discussion, nor is it fair.

voodoogroves
06-11-2012, 11:02 AM
Obviously it should be *better* to have the past life. But how much better? I feel on live it is balanced.

Making it roughly the equivelent of +8 to hit (8x more powerful) would be too much.

Making it do .5%-1% more hits (1/5 to 1/10 as powerful) would be far too little.

Comparing it to a wizard PL? Well if you are already at 32ish spell pen (possible with zero PLs), any more is not incredibly useful unless you want to wail epic drow...and then you need to fully spec to do that...and we will see in 2 weeks if wail is even useful for that.

You really should be comparing it as fighter PL vs no fighter PL...dragging casters in to muddy the waters and say fighter PL should be buffed 8x what it is because sorcs are shiney is not condusive to a good discussion, nor is it fair.

Possibly. Maybe you convinced me with your "don't reward mediocrity" thread to look at things differently.

Heck, I still want Power Surge as a freaking stance and on all the time.


Diminishing returns **** keeps new folks competitive, right?

Stillwaters
06-11-2012, 11:03 AM
OOOH even better make the pun-pun a sorc in the first place, swinging 'tween spells,
over a big enough timeline,
and with a big enough boss AC
"sorcy pun pun" wins!!!

lol I must be tired. stupid american time slot forums keeping me awake :p

Making melee casters that hit with no investment tween spells was one of my 1st rants in closed beta :cool:

Phidius
06-11-2012, 11:03 AM
...
(EDIT and just so I'm clear - you're only talking about the framing of the comparison; there's no implied opinion on your part that it is or isn't OMFG-broken?)

Correct. I'm still not 100% clear on how the upcoming combat changes are calculated. I keep meaning to find the thread that will allow me to accurately predict my 12/6/2 battle casters' to-hit, armor class, dodge, etc...

But I keep getting sidetracked :D

Edit:

Details from Eladrin (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4512886&postcount=2)

Dayum... this is going to be a good release for WF battle-casters. The struggle to stay in the relevant areas of to-hit/AC has always been a major weakness, and now the gap between one and a true melee has been closed significantly.

voodoogroves
06-11-2012, 11:18 AM
OOOH even better make the pun-pun a sorc in the first place, swinging 'tween spells,
over a big enough timeline,
and with a big enough boss AC
"sorcy pun pun" wins!!!

lol I must be tired. stupid american time slot forums keeping me awake :p

Making melee casters that hit with no investment tween spells was one of my 1st rants in closed beta :cool:

Ya know, Pun Pun was eventually optimized to have the "fastest" route to power as a Level 1 human paladin. No longer required sorc or kobolds. Go figure.

;-)

Stillwaters
06-11-2012, 12:19 PM
/snip darn dbl post

Stillwaters
06-11-2012, 12:21 PM
Ya know, Pun Pun was eventually optimized to have the "fastest" route to power as a Level 1 human paladin. No longer required sorc or kobolds. Go figure.

;-)

+1 for the total over usage of pun pun you caused in this thread!

And the only good pun pun is a kobold

DM: you approach a clearing where you see a kobol-

Fighter: i charge him!

DM: are you sure you want to do th-

Fighter: i charge him i rolled a 20 :)

Party: "YEAH, Natural 20!!"

DM: sorry guys the kobold looks angry you all die! :D

Party: ..... .... .... "good one Fighter" :mad:

Fighter: this game stinx (walks out)

<party rolls up new toons>

DM: so you approach a clearing, in the clearing you see a gazeebo with--

Party: "run for your lives!!!"

voodoogroves
06-11-2012, 12:22 PM
+1 for the total over usage of pun pun you caused in this thread!

And the only good pun pun is a kobold

DM: you approach a clearing where you see a kobol-

Fighter: i charge him!

DM: are you sure you want to do th-

Fighter: i charge him i rolled a 20 :)

Party: "YEAH, Natural 20!!"

DM: sorry guy the kobold looks angry you all die! :D

Party: ..... .... .... "good one Fighter" :mad:

Fighter: this DM stinx (walks out)

<party rolls up new toons>

DM: so you approach a clearing, in the clearing you see a gazeebo with--

Party: "run for your lives!!!"


I was more sad when Nut-Nut wasn't required either. Poor, overlooked squirrels.

The real pity is that folks probably think I care so incredibly much about this, but the reality is I'm posting at work. If I were home in front of the game, I wouldn't be on the forums. Ah well ...

Cetus
06-11-2012, 12:47 PM
I completely agree

The weapon focus triplet and the fighter past lives are completely underpowered now. With the introduction of percentage based mechanisms, actual numerical improvements to our attack scores have completely lost their position in our character builds.

I think that this system absolutely caters to the undergeared and the more casual player. I have no problem with more efficient casual players, but what I absolutey have a problem with is making my achievements such as the years of TR'ing and years of grinding gear to perfection mean much less in comparison to the undergeared first life casual guys.

With the rounding mechanism in place, I'd absolutely need to know what the AC is of the opponents I fight. I am not going to wear a +X attack item, if I calculate that it still isn't enough to round me up, but in order to know that, I absolutely must know the AC of my target.

Additionally, I refuse to have to calculate my %chance to attack a monster with whatever AC they have. This is much like what I do today on live for my tactic DC if I get curious, since the devs just blatantly removed that piece of information.

So, my requests here are two fold:

1. Weapon focus feats and fighter past life to-hit portion needs a more meaningful adjustment. Either converting them to %age based effects or inflate the numerical values to a more meaningful number.

2.Provide a way for us to KNOW what our % chance is to hit our target currently, maybe involve the monster manual this way. Lets say, I encounter a monster for the first time- its stats are mysterious to me. But, after I kill it- I would like its stats available to me and employed in an area that can tell me what my miss chance is and what not. I don't feel like crunching out the impacts of every piece of to hit gear I wear in every particular case to be absolutely efficient with my melee.

Indoran
06-11-2012, 01:24 PM
5% chance to-hit would be too much under the current system. Far too much.

For a +65 to-hit melee vs an 80 AC mob (72% chance to hit) to get to the same as a character with 3 fighter PLs (87% chance to hit), they would need a +90 to-hit. Those fighter past lives are the same as the following effects for to-hit:

Eravens sight (4)
+4 cannith crafted (4)
Imp sundered (5)
flanking (2)
power surge (4)
SA +5 item (5)
bless (1)

Combined

So 5% stacking 3x would be too much. But the current +1 to-hit is nothing. Maybe make it a stacking 2% chance to-hit (still a lot). This new "based on 100" system really means every to-hit effect needs a major look at.

Exactly... this is my position... for those of us that grinded the 4 mill - 13 mill xp to get a meaningful benefit... we need soemthing... i think maybe 2% would be good.

Regarding the 1% doublestrike... its sooooo not the same I would take +2% to hit any day.

To hit is actually a dps multiplier. What do i mean? for the sake of the example lets simplify, lets say you do 100 damage per hit. and you have a 70% chance to hit. then you are actually doing:

70% * 100 = 70 damage

what happens to weapon specialization (as the poster above says) if you go from 95% chance to hit to 70%

95% * 2 = 1.9 damage

70% * 2 = 1.4 damage

By changing the way to hit works the whole weapon specialization line got punched in the groin. that 0.5 less damage is well evidently 25% less.

Melee dps is not OP and because of this Weapon Specialization might need to get revamped to make it worth taking for anything besides being a kensei (which got hit with the nerf stick too, but that is topic for another already running thread).

and for those who havent run the math... there is a calculation that shows that +1 to hit might amount to 0% increase in to hit in certain circumstances... (lost the link but it should be easy to find it's a hot topic currently)

Postumus
06-11-2012, 01:28 PM
I have one character who I serially TR, but I'm parking all of my other L18-20s until after u14 to see what the PL situation looks like when the dust settles.

Chai
06-11-2012, 01:53 PM
Obviously it should be *better* to have the past life. But how much better? I feel on live it is balanced.

Making it roughly the equivelent of +8 to hit (8x more powerful) would be too much.

Making it do .5%-1% more hits (1/5 to 1/10 as powerful) would be far too little.

Comparing it to a wizard PL? Well if you are already at 32ish spell pen (possible with zero PLs), any more is not incredibly useful unless you want to wail epic drow...and then you need to fully spec to do that...and we will see in 2 weeks if wail is even useful for that.

You really should be comparing it as fighter PL vs no fighter PL...dragging casters in to muddy the waters and say fighter PL should be buffed 8x what it is because sorcs are shiney is not condusive to a good discussion, nor is it fair.

Melee are already getting the nerf bat in the scenario, because melee who used to hit on a 2 are now not hitting on a 2. "The 8x more powerful" comment is not accurate when you look at the big picture, because even with 3x fighter PL, fighters will not be hitting mobs 95% of the time like they used to. The overall effect it will have will still not bring fighters to where they currently were in the heroic game, even if it was +5%.

Magictones
06-11-2012, 02:09 PM
For those times that you didn't hit on a two in the live system because you were debuffed, running content over your lvl, using CE to survive, or some other reason, doesn't the +3 to hit raise your to hit 15%?

So is it not fair to assume you should get the same in the new system?

ThePrisoner
06-11-2012, 02:12 PM
1% is an extra attack every hundred, x3 bring that sown to thirty-three. It does not benefit ranged and likewise neither do the tactical benefits of a fighter PL.




Doublestrike doesn't proc on offhand attacks, so if you are a two weapon fighter, 1% doublestrike would be an extra attack for every 100 mainhand attacks, which would be approximately one extra attack for every 180 attacks total (mainhand + offhand, full twf chain). Third fighter past life it would be an extra attack for about every 60. Seems too weak.

As for 5% to hit per past life, this doesn't seem too powerful to me. I'm not completely familiar with the new to hit mechanics, but past lives don't exactly come easily. It's a lot of work to get three fighter past lives for a total of +15% to hit.

Indoran
06-11-2012, 02:30 PM
Obviously it should be *better* to have the past life. But how much better? I feel on live it is balanced.

Making it roughly the equivelent of +8 to hit (8x more powerful) would be too much.

Making it do .5%-1% more hits (1/5 to 1/10 as powerful) would be far too little.

Comparing it to a wizard PL? Well if you are already at 32ish spell pen (possible with zero PLs), any more is not incredibly useful unless you want to wail epic drow...and then you need to fully spec to do that...and we will see in 2 weeks if wail is even useful for that.

You really should be comparing it as fighter PL vs no fighter PL...dragging casters in to muddy the waters and say fighter PL should be buffed 8x what it is because sorcs are shiney is not condusive to a good discussion, nor is it fair.

looks like someone here is talking about wizard pl without knowing the real value of spell pen... I really appreciate Sibeli's 2 wiz pl when farming epic scrolls (I actually took them because of that and Sib's geared for spell pen)... and remember MORE epics are coming.

Now... maybe by judging from live you dont understand the new system (this last statement should be tautological) the new system is different and you will no longer auto hit on everything besides a 1.

So being that the fighter pl is all about being good at hitting stuff ... well guess what is thematically coherent with having a meaningful effect on to hit. This is no longer accomplished by a +1.

Cyr
06-11-2012, 02:39 PM
I agree with the OP.

The fighter past life should get a boost, but it's not alone in that distinction. There really are only a few PL feats that are really good. The rest are just mediocre to plain bad.

Vulgari
06-11-2012, 05:57 PM
People are saying 5%/10%/15% is what is needed; others say it is too high. One of the problems seems to be the universal 25% to-hit regardless of BAB or other stat/gear.

The point of my earlier post is that an acceptable solution does not have to be confined to adjusting to-hit.

The 1% doublestrike I used earlier is merely an example. The 1% wasn't supposed to be some type of hard number, but something to illustrate an alternative solution. Maybe I should have started with 20% doublestrike so that people would say it's too high. One of the reasons I went with doublestrike is because its effectiveness is fairly linear which makes it just as effective at the low lvls as at the high and should be easier to balance.

Another possibility could be to have the fighter PL grant a fighter bonus feat. Now maybe having the PL grant a fighter bonus feat per PL is too much. So maybe it's granted at 3xfighter PL. With some of the feat changes and pre-reqs for epic feats, the fighter PL with this change could be useful for otherwise feat-starved builds.

Regardless there seems to be agreement that the fighter PL as currently constructed is rather useless after the update, other than being a requirement for completionist.

Stillwaters
06-11-2012, 08:58 PM
and for those who havent run the math... there is a calculation that shows that +1 to hit might amount to 0% increase in to hit in certain circumstances... (lost the link but it should be easy to find it's a hot topic currently)

Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4513166&postcount=121) ya go:

As for a +1 always contributes (even not rounding to nearest 5%)
If a mob/non proficient player attacks a target with 100AC
+65 tohit vs 100AC = (75.5)/(2*100) =38% <-- i could buff this guy with a bless spell and notice NOTHING
+66 tohit vs 100AC = (76.5)/(2*100) =38% <-- i could debuff this guy with a bane spell and notice NOTHING
+74 tohit vs 100AC = (84.5)/(2*100) =42% <-- i could give 4 neg levels to this guy = 4% change

If a proficient player attacks a target with 100AC rounding in blue for believers
+65 tohit vs 100AC = (75.5)/(2*100) =38% +25% = 63% ->65%
+66 tohit vs 100AC = (76.5)/(2*100) =38% +25% = 63% ->65%
+74 tohit vs 100AC = (84.5)/(2*100) =42% +25% = 67% ->65% <--9 more to hit = 0% change

If you do some numbers, you can see a +1to hit change may not even contribute 1% in high-end play!!!

HERE (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4514733&postcount=148) too:

If you would prefer me to use a 75AC epic lvl mob/ moderate AC player I can....

+31 to hit vs 75AC = 41.5/150 = 28% +25% = 53% (55% rounding)
+54 to hit vs 75AC = 64.5/150 = 43% +25% = 68% (70% rounding)
+60 to hit vs 75AC = 70.5/150 = 47% +25% = 72% (70% rounding)


+54 to +60 = 6 more to hit = 0% change (4% for mobs or if you dont believe in rounding)
+34 to +60 = 29 more to hit = 15% change (19% for mobs or if you dont believe in rounding)

so the difference between a +31 tohit guy with little to no gear/investment and a +60 dedicated geared melee is
The dedicated guy hits on 6+(using d20), the newb hits on 9+, for 29 less tohit :eek:

EDIT: on the reverse you need 10 neg levs, a sunder, a curse, and a bane spell as debuffs for -29 to hit,
and the mob would have 19% less to hit same damage!!!!<-you used to get more than this for curse alone

The age of the self healing melee battle caster has begun

Cetus
06-11-2012, 09:36 PM
Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4513166&postcount=121) ya go:


HERE (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4514733&postcount=148) too:


The age of the self healing melee battle caster has begun

Yea, everytime I think about how that works, and then look at these required weapon foci- i die a little inside.

Phidius
06-11-2012, 10:36 PM
...
The age of the self healing melee battle caster has begun

And they wouldn't give us Practiced Spell Caster because it was too OP <grins>. I'd get excited about the prospects of a battle caster being competitive DPS, but I just know that Turbine will cancel the entire AC modification as soon as they realize what this means to battle casters.

Erekose
06-13-2012, 08:23 AM
5% chance to-hit would be too much under the current system. Far too much.

For a +65 to-hit melee vs an 80 AC mob (72% chance to hit) to get to the same as a character with 3 fighter PLs (87% chance to hit), they would need a +90 to-hit. Those fighter past lives are the same as the following effects for to-hit:

Eravens sight (4)
+4 cannith crafted (4)
Imp sundered (5)
flanking (2)
power surge (4)
SA +5 item (5)
bless (1)

Combined

So 5% stacking 3x would be too much. But the current +1 to-hit is nothing. Maybe make it a stacking 2% chance to-hit (still a lot). This new "based on 100" system really means every to-hit effect needs a major look at.

12,000,000+ XP is a fair price for +15% to hit :P

Illiamfryn
06-13-2012, 08:30 AM
Agree with the above poster. Good reward for doing 4 fighter true reincarnations.

LiquidShadow
06-13-2012, 04:17 PM
fighter past life is still ok. +1 to hit might not do much but +1 to DC is not that bad.

its the weapon focus that sucks now...

Masadique
06-13-2012, 04:27 PM
Holy **** you were serious..

ok im tired so ill play along

depends on the boss, and the sorc :D


AFAIK energy immunities exist yet melee immunities dont.
Evasion exists for bosses yet dodge doesnt quite do it for melee.

assume our pun-pun doesnt sack to hit and goes barb to raise his STR over100, nothing but DPS and crits i can see him getting quite far ahead, depending on boss
I know the pun pun would be taking more damage than the sorc tho :D

New DDO challenge, remake Pun Pun. Now I know that you were a crazy DnD nerd Still. I wasn't of course. I just...um...

V

joaofalcao
06-13-2012, 05:16 PM
12,000,000+ XP is a fair price for +15% to hit :P

Hell yes. You want something worth your times and your troubles.

This new system have to go in order to D&D to survive.... amonsgt other things.

maddmatt70
06-13-2012, 05:26 PM
Shrug, OP all past lives have been nerfed, all gear will be nerfed, and heroic class levels recieve a nerf. You have not stated an effective case as to why fighter past lives are nerfed more so then other past lives. Monk past lives also got nerfed due to damage inflation via items, destnies, etc.

This is the nature of MMOs old grinds get the nerf bat so that they can make way for newer grinds.

Indoran
06-13-2012, 05:44 PM
Shrug, OP all past lives have been nerfed, all gear will be nerfed, and heroic class levels recieve a nerf. You have not stated an effective case as to why fighter past lives are nerfed more so then other past lives. Monk past lives also got nerfed due to damage inflation via items, destnies, etc.

This is the nature of MMOs old grinds get the nerf bat so that they can make way for newer grinds.

Maybe because as I said... I have not been able to play my lamma toon... (failed copies and the fifth try ... just got me dc'ed as soon as I entered)

I know you are a fairly well reputed player. But your post has nothing to do with what I am saying. If you want to post regarding the other pl (which are clearly not the focus of my post) please feel free to do so.

I think that Spell pen wasnt hit so bad with the nerf stick... possibly casting dc's also weren't sooo I thought wiz and sorc pl are still solid (the + sp and +dc to wands are obviously not worth mentioning).

Monk pl was obviously nerfed (see my post of to hit as the physical dps multiplier)

Ranger pl active component will obviously need to be reworked from the live version. the passive will also be nerfed by the proposed changes (but that really doesn't worry me much, thats for the ranger crowd).

Barbarian pl idk... not my thing... not going to waste time thinking about that one.

fvs pl should always have been +2 spell pen... +1 sucks (kind of a sad moment very recently when I tr'ed my fvs).

arti pl kind of niche... not going to comment.

cleric pl always gimpy and incredibly niche as usual

but that's not what my post was about. I am talking about the to hit and how that stinking formula with that "reward mediocrity +25%" and "making your actual to hit almost meaningless" makes the +1 to hit from fighter pl irrelevant.

I was toying with versions of the formula on XL without the +25% (like 15 min or so) and realized that making a fair replacement of the formula that accomplishes the "make ac a system where you dont have to have all the loot to get some actual meaningful mitigation" it's really a pain.

But releasing the system without changes... it's nonsense for melee... it is in fact nerfing all the melee and ranged crowd in exchange of making medium AC values viable.

That's soooooo not an elegant solution. and saying all the pl are being nerfed without worrying is not the solution.

We need incentives for the ppl that have legend toons and enjoy going through the grind to get some cool 5% over here and there...

Jay203
06-13-2012, 06:10 PM
um... we already have a base 25% chance at least to hit for using proficient weapon
if we were to add in 15% for changing fighter PL to 5% each life, 40% to hit regardless of your to hit bonus
add in precision, you can dump to hit and still hit at 45% rate...
i'd just change it to +2 to hit bonus per life, it's not super awesome, but it helps a little bit
besides, the best thing about fighter PL is the DC bonus anyway

Urjak
06-13-2012, 06:17 PM
um... we already have a base 25% chance at least to hit for using proficient weapon
if we were to add in 15% for changing fighter PL to 5% each life, 40% to hit regardless of your to hit bonus
add in precision, you can dump to hit and still hit at 45% rate...
i'd just change it to +2 to hit bonus per life, it's not super awesome, but it helps a little bit
besides, the best thing about fighter PL is the DC bonus anyway

^this ... +1 attack is now really weak ... but 5%??? that would be crazy lol ... +2 to hit and the DC bonus should be well worth it

maddmatt70
06-14-2012, 12:37 AM
Maybe because as I said... I have not been able to play my lamma toon... (failed copies and the fifth try ... just got me dc'ed as soon as I entered)

I know you are a fairly well reputed player. But your post has nothing to do with what I am saying. If you want to post regarding the other pl (which are clearly not the focus of my post) please feel free to do so.

I think that Spell pen wasnt hit so bad with the nerf stick... possibly casting dc's also weren't sooo I thought wiz and sorc pl are still solid (the + sp and +dc to wands are obviously not worth mentioning).

Monk pl was obviously nerfed (see my post of to hit as the physical dps multiplier)

Ranger pl active component will obviously need to be reworked from the live version. the passive will also be nerfed by the proposed changes (but that really doesn't worry me much, thats for the ranger crowd).

Barbarian pl idk... not my thing... not going to waste time thinking about that one.

fvs pl should always have been +2 spell pen... +1 sucks (kind of a sad moment very recently when I tr'ed my fvs).

arti pl kind of niche... not going to comment.

cleric pl always gimpy and incredibly niche as usual

but that's not what my post was about. I am talking about the to hit and how that stinking formula with that "reward mediocrity +25%" and "making your actual to hit almost meaningless" makes the +1 to hit from fighter pl irrelevant.

I was toying with versions of the formula on XL without the +25% (like 15 min or so) and realized that making a fair replacement of the formula that accomplishes the "make ac a system where you dont have to have all the loot to get some actual meaningful mitigation" it's really a pain.

But releasing the system without changes... it's nonsense for melee... it is in fact nerfing all the melee and ranged crowd in exchange of making medium AC values viable.

That's soooooo not an elegant solution. and saying all the pl are being nerfed without worrying is not the solution.

We need incentives for the ppl that have legend toons and enjoy going through the grind to get some cool 5% over here and there...

The fact is I disagree with your basic premise that the nerfing of the fighter past lives or general past lives is a problem and in fact argue that it is the natural order of things in an MMO. I could make much the same claims about all the loot that I have spent many hours grinding for, but I know there is new loot to replace the old loot and the same thing with past lives because now we cangrind the new grind the destinies which are replacing the true reincarnation grind. If the destinies were not appealing then why grind the new grind and continue to play this MMO.

Rodasch
06-14-2012, 01:26 AM
Why not just multiply all + to hit effects (gear, feat, spell, etc.) by 3(spells/songs), 4(gear/enhancements/set bonuses) or 5(feats) to scale it with the increase from a d20 to a d100 roll. This doesn't scale the percentage directly, but more indirectly. It does, however, make a more significant impact on the chances to hit, similar in effect to the original impact prior to the combat changes.

So each fighter past life would be +5 to hit (not +5%) for a total of +15 to hit at 3 past lives. Do the math and you'll see how reasonable this actually is.

Weapon Focus would be +5 to hit with that weapon type.

Greater Heroism (spell) would be +12 to hit, but epic Spectral Gloves (gear) would be +16 to hit.

Racial weapon to hit bonuses would be +4 per tier
Figher Attack Boost would be +4 per tier
Human Attack Boost would be +4 per tier

So on and so forth.

voxson5
06-14-2012, 02:08 AM
The age of the self healing melee battle caster has begun

Oh yeah :D wiz pl here i come :D

voxson5
06-14-2012, 02:11 AM
And they wouldn't give us Practiced Spell Caster because it was too OP <grins>. I'd get excited about the prospects of a battle caster being competitive DPS, but I just know that Turbine will cancel the entire AC modification as soon as they realize what this means to battle casters.

not even mentioning displacement being self-cast only ...

Anyone on running numbers? wraith & displcement + tempest feat dodge's + items?

Indoran
06-14-2012, 02:28 AM
The fact is I disagree with your basic premise that the nerfing of the fighter past lives or general past lives is a problem and in fact argue that it is the natural order of things in an MMO. I could make much the same claims about all the loot that I have spent many hours grinding for, but I know there is new loot to replace the old loot and the same thing with past lives because now we cangrind the new grind the destinies which are replacing the true reincarnation grind. If the destinies were not appealing then why grind the new grind and continue to play this MMO.

not on topic...

MRMechMan
06-14-2012, 02:32 AM
not on topic...

Or planet earth...

DrakHar
06-14-2012, 05:51 AM
Signed x100.

But the more I look at it, the more I realize that this system for attack is just plain awful. There isn't a problem with to hits currently, so why implement this? THERE IS a problem with AC, so I understand THAT overhaul.

Emili
06-14-2012, 08:24 AM
besides, the best thing about fighter PL is the DC bonus anyway

DC bonus has little meaning because every trip, stun ... you need to roll to-hit first in order to take a DC, I do not know how many people realize it but the to-hit they use is your base. - i.e. attack seq 0 and not attack seq 3 or 4.


Why not just multiply all + to hit effects (gear, feat, spell, etc.) by 3(spells/songs), 4(gear/enhancements/set bonuses) or 5(feats) to scale it with the increase from a d20 to a d100 roll. This doesn't scale the percentage directly, but more indirectly. It does, however, make a more significant impact on the chances to hit, similar in effect to the original impact prior to the combat changes.


The target's AC is a sliding scale ... for each improvement you'd need to attain about 10% of the target's ac in to-hit ... i.e. from ac 30 to 40 you need 4%, from ac 40 to 50 you need 5% from ac 50 to 60 you need 6% improvements in order for it to have any effect.

The system devalues loot, feats enhancements and Bab based on the target's AC due this nature...

i.e. Individually...

Would be no difference "to-hit" between using a +3 weapon vs a +6 weapon when the mob ac is 50,

BaB of 2 more - what you attain from level 20 vs 25 - bears no difference when the target is 30ac,

Inspire attack III - 12 AP on a bard is equal to a song without Inspired attack when the target is 40ac,

Chanter's song to hit IC is no different than a spell singers or a virtuoso's in relationship.

The spell GH would not add to-hit when the mob ac is above 50, Divine Power, divine favour, ...

All these individually have no effect until combining multiple stacking things together providing they stack... and so on.

Then are the destinies which offer very few in the way of to-hit and again are marginal applied alone.

However, I'd like to remind people ... as Shade pointed out, that the proposed changed for player vs monster has not gone into beta, for players AC it has but for the monster AC it has not. I do not know if the dev's are comptemplating over these things or not?

Shade
06-14-2012, 08:34 AM
The new AC system remains unimplemented for monsters.

I don't think it should go live, and i dont think it will. Destroys too many feats/items/etc.

Doesn't have to work same for monsters vs players. We dont use same rules for most everythign else anyways (EG: spellpoints, concentraiton checks, etc, etc)

Emili
06-14-2012, 09:04 AM
The new AC system remains unimplemented for monsters.

I don't think it should go live, and i dont think it will. Destroys too many feats/items/etc.

Doesn't have to work same for monsters vs players. We dont use same rules for most everythign else anyways (EG: spellpoints, concentraiton checks, etc, etc)

I meantioned you noticed that. ;)

Indoran
06-16-2012, 01:49 AM
Emili and Shade ty for your posts :3

At least some light in the middle of the storm.

Postumus
06-16-2012, 02:14 AM
Well there's catching up, and there's OMFG broken~

We currently have +25% so with 0 bab you hit on a 16+
if you stacked 3 fighter past lives at 5% each you would hit on a 13+
With precision 5% you now hit on a 12+
If you were using a ranged wep and had point blank shot its another +5%
now you hit on 11+ (50%) with no base attack (+0 to hit) vs any ac in the game
all for 2 feats you can take @ lvl 1 (with 3 ftr past lives)

e

That isn't correct. AC modifies the chance to hit. Look at the formula again and you'll see what I mean.

Sidewaysgts86
06-16-2012, 05:24 AM
Heresa thought, and apologies if it was brought up before.

If the coding allows it, what about having it add the 5% after everything else is calculated? So if it was calculated that youd hit 50% of the time, add the 5% to this, to bring it up to 55%. Up to 65% with 3 previous past lifes.

Doesnt this relatively mimic quite well what it currently does?