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danotmano1998
06-10-2012, 01:25 PM
I've been considering the new "Haunting" proposal as outlined by Turbine, and I can honestly say two things about it.

1. It is a step in the right direction
2. I hate it.

I'm not going to go into the details of why, that's another thread. Here is my alternate proposal:

Haunted - Effect
For every enemy killed by an AOE death effect (Wail, Circle of Death, Implosion, etc..etc..) a stacking +(X) Spell point cost is added to these spells.

These costs decrease by (X) per (X) seconds.
These costs can have a cap of (X) number of points.


Possible example:
A caster goes in and wails 10 mobs.
They now have an effective +10SP cost to the casting of another AOE.
These could devalue at 1 per 2 seconds. (Or whatever, the math isn't important, the concept is.)

Thoughts?


This will allow the original mechanic Turbine was going for: Making instant AOE death spells more costly, without taking away any functionality from the caster. (Hard earned DC's!)

It simply taxes their spell points more and hits them where it hurts.

Tl;Dr - Instead of penalizing DC's, penalize spell point cost

Jay203
06-10-2012, 01:53 PM
i was thinking making it so instead of lowering DC, it increases the spell cooldown depending on the # of enemies killed by said spell (so it'll effect the AoE a lot more than single targets)
also make it so the haunting stacks will affect spell casting so one has to make conentration checks that's dependent on stacks?

Jonathrint
06-10-2012, 04:14 PM
Why not just increase the monsters' saves so that they will have a 60-90% chance of surviving Wail? With the 30 second cooldown it prevents room-clearing.

Jay203
06-10-2012, 04:22 PM
Why not just increase the monsters' saves so that they will have a 60-90% chance of surviving Wail? With the 30 second cooldown it prevents room-clearing.

because that would make all casters that didn't invest HEAVILY into their DC to be completely useless and only land their spells less than 10% of the time

merentha
06-10-2012, 07:05 PM
Give it time and the entire Save/DC system will be revamped to mirror the AC system currently on beta.

Diminishing returns on the amount of DC/Saves obtained by players.
Decreasing penalties against the scaling applied by the developers to content/monsters.

I don't say this in half the jest that ironic statement would seem to imply to some.

badkhan
06-11-2012, 03:26 AM
Why not just increase the monsters' saves so that they will have a 60-90% chance of surviving Wail? With the 30 second cooldown it prevents room-clearing.

Yes, you're right, but the problem with your idea is that it's simple and makes sense. Please stop.

Erekose
06-11-2012, 08:11 AM
1. Introduction

Throughout the history of Dungeons and Dragons (D&D), the game has seen Arcane’s become extremely powerful at high levels. This is true from 1st edition through to the current system and has been replicated in numerous game adaptations, such as Baldurs Gate II. An Arcane with Spell sequencer and Time Stop could clear the room of all enemies. That’s the appeal and attraction of the Arcane. With Turbines adaptation of 3.5 the balance of an Arcanes high level power with general game play has been a problem yet to be addressed in a satisfactory way so that the tradition of the high level power caster can co-exist with other classes in a party.
It is expected, that at high levels, Arcane’s will be the principal character that makes the biggest impact. Such as Necromancy spells, enchantment effects and very high DC’s on evocation and conjuration spells. So why on the eve of the most ambitious expansion to the game we see the developers tinker with the high end capabilities of Arcanes? Is it for game balance? Or is it to placate the bruised egos of the pro melee classes? Or even worse, pander to the lowest common denominator, the gimped melee?

2. Background

The purpose of completing quests in D&D and in an MMO such as D&D Online are numerous. They range from heroic experience point reward, acquisition of wealth in the form of platinum and magic items. The pursuit and acquisition of rare items and artefacts, guild renown, House Favour, Epic Destiny points, crafting materials and Epic Experience are all motivators for players to participate in the running of a quest and achieving completion. It is a transaction based relationship whereas, I give you my time and I expect something in return. Therefore, with this in mind, a group wanting to grind for the above mentioned rewards would seek to achieve the task of completing a quest in the most efficient and cost effective way. To do this, the high level Arcane provides the power through magic. Instant death effects are the friend to all party members. Who really cares who gets the most kills? I ask, would you rather struggle through a quest to see your barbarian at the top of the kill count and burn off a healer who will never join your group again? Or complete epics in an efficient and time effective way, and in the process obtain the rewards you work hard for and in a manner that leaves you encouraged to play some more? If you prefer the former I believe you put your own ego before the collective requirements and interests of the group.

3. Group / Shared goal and success and the possible effect of a nerfed Instant killer

In respect to group shared goals, isn’t the fact that a quest can be completed efficiently and minimal resources used more important than the barbarian feeling all hurt because he didn’t top the kill count and therefore, hasn’t had fun? I think melee’s who complain about not having fun because the Wizard killed everything lacks the insight into the true party / group needs which is, efficient and cost effective completion of a quest. If you don’t understand that, then roll and play a high level healer. I am sure, that the experience you gain from playing a healer will change your opinion of kill counts.

When epic mobs were all death warded the Wizard became a one dimensional caster, the Enchanter. Although a lot of fun to play, became an ever increasing scarce commodity in the game. Epic content relied on this one dimensional Arcane to join for efficient success. I recall LFM’s looking for a high DC enchanter. The importance of a reliable Arcane was the difference between a quest starting and the difference between the consumption of resources. i.e. spell point potions. Also there was a kind of burden for players needing to switch to their Enchanter. Much the same healers tend to begrudge switching when they know the party lacks the Arcane fire power of instant kill or, at the very least, sufficient crowd control and that their healing will be relied upon heavily because the instant killer enchanter is not present.

When the Epic death ward was removed, the Wizard flourished in all forms, the Pale master and the Arch-Mage became a useful ally to all parties in all conditions. They facilitated success for a PUG and for exclusive guild runs. My point is the fate of the Arcane is linked with the fate of the healer and the success of PUG and to a lesser extent guild epic completions. A nerfed Arcane will have a knock on effect with parties, in that the healers will be less inclined to run unless the optimal condition for efficient completions are present. This will impact LFM’s. We have seen this already and turbine removed epic death ward.

With the current game balance, Arcane’s provide effective instant kills and crowd control and facilitate smooth, efficient and successful completions. My concern is that if the proposed changes go ahead and they result in a less attractive game play for Wizards, then people will refuse to play them. This will be a huge disadvantage for the game, the servers and the community. Most affected will be PUG’s. I have had discussions with a number of players who will refuse to play their Arcane Wizards if the Haunting has a detrimental effect on the game, this will have an indirect impact on the healer population and LFM's.

4. Summary

I acknowledge that the balancing of high level Arcane’s is a significant and problematic task. High level Arcane’s presents the Dungeon Master (i.e. Turbine) with a conundrum. This conundrum has existed since the day the game began. I am very keen to see the Haunting introduced, as it appears to attempt to address player’s sentiment around having fun playing the game however, if the haunting isn’t properly implemented I am concerned there may be a player backlash which will have far more detrimental effects than simply bruised egos of melee’s and we will see the return to a Wizard-less community. This will result in these same melee players complaining that they can’t get a group because no one wants to play an Enchanter and healers won’t run until they get one. I see this as a bigger problem for turbine than simply allowing the Wizard to facilitate success for the group by doing what they do best.

Erek.

Charononus
06-11-2012, 08:26 AM
1. Introduction


4. Summary
I acknowledge that the balancing of high level Arcane’s is a significant and problematic task. High level Arcane’s presents the Dungeon Master (i.e. Turbine) with a conundrum. This conundrum has existed since the day the game began. I am very keen to see the Haunting introduced, as it appears to attempt to address player’s sentiment around having fun playing the game however, if the haunting isn’t properly implemented I am concerned there may be a player backlash which will have far more detrimental effects that simply bruised egos of melee’s and we will see the return to a Wizard-less community. This will result in these same melee players complaining that they can’t get a group because no one wants to play an Enchanter and healers won’t run until they get one. I see this as a bigger problem for turbine than simply allowing the Wizard to facilitate success for the group by doing what they do best.

Erek.

Very well thought out and I agree, this change does not benefit the game as a whole I don't think.

Blank_Zero
06-11-2012, 08:27 AM
Why not just increase the monsters' saves so that they will have a 60-90% chance of surviving Wail? With the 30 second cooldown it prevents room-clearing.

Because Fortitude Saves affect monks, rogues and tactics DCs, not just Necromancy.

dunklezhan
06-11-2012, 08:32 AM
Give it time and the entire Save/DC system will be revamped to mirror the AC system currently on beta.

Diminishing returns on the amount of DC/Saves obtained by players.
Decreasing penalties against the scaling applied by the developers to content/monsters.

I don't say this in half the jest that ironic statement would seem to imply to some.

Indeed. And also, I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

So many double negatives...

Must say that I don't consider Hard to Kill a big deal though. Its only post L20 quests on Hard or Elite, and goes away as soon as a mob reaches 50% for the first time. So your melee's and other buddies or even your direct damage spells are used first to soften them up (which as it's Epic takes a while, ensuring all cool downs are over and most likely so is the Haunted penalty from your last cast), and then you blast away with your insta kill anyway.

I may have this wrong but I tried reading the threads to understand what the fuss was about but in two pages I was drowning in DooOOOooOOOOooMMM!one!!11eleventyfirst!!!1! and gave up in despair of some kind of rational discussion.


Either way, I'm glad I don't play a high DC caster. Everything else coming out of the expansion seems pretty good to me.

For the record - I would not want to see somethign like the new AC mechanic hitting spells though. Spell DCs are not broken, unlike AC.

Hobgoblin
06-11-2012, 08:37 AM
Why not just increase the monsters' saves so that they will have a 60-90% chance of surviving Wail? With the 30 second cooldown it prevents room-clearing.


that would mess with meeles more then casters.

because that would mess with stunning blow, sunder etc.

hob

Ape_Man
06-11-2012, 08:40 AM
Yes, you're right, but the problem with your idea is that it's simple and makes sense. Please stop.

He';s wrong. It's a fort save, up it up too much and nobody can stun, sunder, or assassinate anything.

AOE insta-kills are the issue, a 50 SP FoD is not. The nerfs should affect the AOEs and not the single-targets. I was thinking increased cooldowns but increased SP costs might work also.

Sarnind
06-11-2012, 08:42 AM
the best balance for me is: change all instant kill in to damage, example 1000 damage , saves negates

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 08:50 AM
The problem is they already increased the cool downs on most of the AoE spells. It's where it should be honestly.

The best solution I have seen isn't to make a haunting or hard to kill mechanic (also I'm pretty sure Haunting replaces HtK instead of being added too), but rather add in mobs that cast DW randomly.

I can't stress that enough as the code and ability is already in the game to get divine mobs to randomly cast DW/DW, Mass. I'd much rather see it be spread out among the npc's in the game to be able to cast these spells then a broad nerf to wizards (and pale masters especially). It facilitates what the devs are trying to accomplish so well, which is Teamwork.

Would I still be able to wipe out a whole room, yeah. If I didn't get to that cleric/fvs in-time to stop it from casting DW, does that mean I have to switch tactics or rely on teammates. Yep.

To me this would seem like the best solution, and gives everyone in the party the feeling of usefulness without diminishing a necro wiz to buff and hold states.

FuzzyDuck81
06-11-2012, 08:55 AM
There are other possibilities for the future as well. One of the recent ideas in the pit is that when we revamp the enhancements, have a few things that improve with your Haunt level. An ability that grants a bonus to Negative Energy Spell Power based on it, or that consumes souls for some effect? That's got to go into the Pale Master tree.

Gonna keep an open mind on the issue for now - ok, instakills would be lessened, but if other negative spells are empowered even more by being haunted, that could potentially make, say, that handy necrotic ray (relatively low SP cost, no SR & fast cooldown with a level drain chance & double range? its sweet, usually get 700+ on my PM from it, prefer it to disintegrate vs. many living things tbh) into something pretty brutal - eg. in raids, wail the mobs, then suddenly you can get a few souped-up blasts vs. the boss...if it boosted necrotic touch/bolt/blast SLAs too it'd be even nicer.

Other possibilities for the pale master empowerment via soul munching could be a nice chunk of temp HP, hp/sp regeneration, etc. so if anything, in long-term it could end up being a really positive change.

Actually, if soul-munching becomes put in, it'd be kinda interesting to have an ability that also let you omnomnom on the gems generated by trap the soul...mmmm tasty :)

dunklezhan
06-11-2012, 09:04 AM
When the Epic death ward was removed, the Wizard flourished in all forms, the pale master and the Arch Mage became a useful ally to all parties in all conditions. .

By going from pure enchanters to more or less universally going to enchant/necro spec for AMs or necro/enchant spec for PMs? I don't know if I'd count that as flourishing, so much as just making the cookie cutter work regardless of the underlying PrE.


This New Thing... well, it may well need tweaking, but I still don't see how this is worse than the current set up for general game balance, and I say this as someone who hate hate hates blanket immunities. They're a horrible way to introduce balance. I don't like them on rednames, raid bosses, or anything else. I don't mind when a creature or type of creature is immune to stuff - if Pit Fiends all have 150% fort and are immune to mind effects and necromancy, that's one thing. But just because it's a purple named creature or 'epic'? Ew. It's not internally consistent with the game world. I digress horribly.

At it's core, the reason for this change seems to be the Devs saying "arcanes will you PLEASE give the rest of the party a chance to contribute, or we're going to have to bring back Epic Ward...". I think it certainly needs some fine tuning, and I like some of the things I've read (my favorite being that it would only apply to saves vs Death Magic, leaving QP, Assassinate and so on all working fine), but every suggestion, no matter how well received by the community all start with a fundamental acceptance of the fact that AOE instakills in their present form make things less fun for certain other roles and a solution needs to be found to it. I agree with that, certainly.

Personally, I'd be happy with them putting it live for the period between the expansion and the August update providing it came with a health warning that it WOULD be reviewed by that August update, with an explanation of the ultimate decision/changes put up on the boards for the sake of keeping people informed. And no, I don't have an end game caster so I am relatively unaffected - except insofar as I'll actually have to DO something if I run an epic quest now. Since that applies I think to all the new expansion content... well that surely can only be a good thing? Can't imagine anything worse than getting all that lovely new content but then being unable to do it without an arcane, and even worse finding that as soon as that arcane is in the group so the quest is doable, I may as well pike at the entrance.

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 09:14 AM
Honestly I'd rather have epic ward return in epics before I saw Haunting implemented....I worked for my 43+ dc in necromancy over multiple lives, and instead of being rewarded by being allowed to use them in whatever content I happen to run, myself and all the other necro specced casters are getting penalized for it.

How about we penalize sorcs for every time they deal damage they get a -to their dc based on how much damage they've done (and DC's matter for sorcs lest their spells never land or deal half dmg). Barbarians lose str for every swing. Rogue lose SA for every successful SA etc...

{Humor starting}
How about this the devs nerf all classes so we can only play commoners. Or worse, Deepwood Snipers

Joking aside

There are better ways, even if they fail to see them.

Perspicacity
06-11-2012, 09:18 AM
Either way, I'm glad I don't play a high DC caster.

I think that this statement sums it all up. even some one who admittedly doesn't play a DC based caster knows that this is going to be a head ache. I agree with Erekose statement wholeheartedly. This issue here is that Turbine doesn't want a class running around that is an uber-deadly super-god but that is exactly what a wizard is. The only way to really fix them is to remove them from the game and if this is how we are with necromancy I cant wait to see the s**t storm that will rain down when druid goes live. Taking the edge off a necromancers spells in this fashion is like talking a barbarians axe away and handing them a dagger. Yes they can still do damage with a dagger but why bother?

There is simply no way to both power down the pail master to a level where those who don't play a wiz will stop complaining and still have it be powerful enough to satisfy those who do. There will always be a group that complains that necromancy is to powerful and if they are every made happy there will be an equal if not louder out cry that necromancy is now to weak and in a more general sense, it's futile to even try and balance a melee with any kind of caster even a bard. I have said it before and I will say it again you poke things with a stick, and I don't care if its a min II greensteal stick or a Terror great stick or an epic stick of shadows, its still a stick and all you can do is swing it. I make explosions with my finger. Immune to fire? I can freeze a creature solid, by pointing at it. Immune to cold? ok I'll spit a jet of acid from my mouth, immune to acid? Ok you've up set me. I'll speak one word, and you just fall over dead.

Caster > melee, always will be. Stop trying to fix it. It can't be fixed.

It seems to me that now a days anything that is stronger than a 28 point build human fighter is considered over powered. This game is virtually devoid of PvP. Why do we even care about game balance? Honestly, I dont care if they guy next to me has a way bigger gun than me as long as he's pointing it at someone else.

Jonathrint
06-11-2012, 09:38 AM
Caster > melee, always will be. Stop trying to fix it. It can't be fixed.
And yet yesterday a Shroud run was holding spots open for melee because there were too many casters & archers and not enough melees. Why? Because you can't cast well when Harry is beating your face in.

My sorc (17) is squishy. I like having a couple of melees around so that I have time to rain acid/cold on my enemies and not get chopped to bits.

YES, arcane casters are more powerful... but that power, in D&D, has always been limited by physical fragility. My PM (who is now a sorc) was much more survivable than my sorc, but put out a whole lot less damage, outside of instakills. Want to make PMs weaker? Add more sundering effects or reduce PM fortification to partial crit immunity, weaken Death Aura (self healing) by 10%, and add death ward as mentioned above. Adding death ward might even make someone somewhere try using Mordenkainen's Disjunction (one of several spells I've never seen used).

Alternatively, give some thematically appropriate epic casters the ability to cast a few reasonably high-powered light spells. Two or three of those will knock a PM down before he or she can get into Wail range.

In general: Make small changes to enemies rather than screwing with the players' builds. Also, remember that the people who post videos on Youtube of their Real Ultimate Power Solo Runs are not 95% of the player base.

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 09:42 AM
Caster > melee, always will be. Stop trying to fix it. It can't be fixed.

It seems to me that now a days anything that is stronger than a 28 point build human fighter is considered over powered. This game is virtually devoid of PvP. Why do we even care about game balance? Honestly, I don't care if they guy next to me has a way bigger gun than me as long as he's pointing it at someone else.

Actually that makes sense. Especially when many people want speedy and hassle free completions. No one likes wasting time.


And yet yesterday a Shroud run was holding spots open for melee because there were too many casters & archers and not enough melees. Why? Because you can't cast well when Harry is beating your face in.


Depends on the build. WF Sorcs/Wizzies actually heal better and have the hp to let some raid bosses beat on them, and they take it, heal up, continue casting.

My PM has 600 hp fully buffed (Human, 36 pt, Pale Master) and has Tanked Hard Sully in VoD and ToD, Harry in Hard Shroud (and was alone for 75% of that fight in Part 5). It's just VERY resource intensive.

So far the only thing this expansion that makes me excited is that my caster will get up to 727 hp at level 25....

alexp80
06-11-2012, 09:53 AM
He';s wrong. It's a fort save, up it up too much and nobody can stun, sunder, or assassinate anything.

AOE insta-kills are the issue, a 50 SP FoD is not. The nerfs should affect the AOEs and not the single-targets. I was thinking increased cooldowns but increased SP costs might work also.

and again... always trying to make a MAIN PRE PURPOSE totally useless.

Pale Master bonus are for the instakill spells. There is only 1 decent necro dmg spell (necrotic ray) that is single target, has a save and there is no enchantment line for it.

If you want to nerf instakill give pale master something else to master BEFORE.

Perspicacity
06-11-2012, 09:55 AM
And yet yesterday a Shroud run was holding spots open for melee because there were too many casters & archers and not enough melees. Why? Because you can't cast well when Harry is beating your face in.



1. I said melees where weaker than casters, not useless. Quite the contrary in fact. I love melees, my main is barbarian, gonna TR him today in to another barb cause I didn't get enough barb on the first life.

2. That shroud held spots for melees because they assumed that all casters shroud don't work. They do, very well might I add. I've seen all caster shrouds, all divine shrouds, BYOH all melee shrouds, solo shrouds, I even seen an all ranger shroud and I believe there is video of that one on the forums somewhere. There is no such thing as a mandatory class for any raid.

Any other words you care to put in my mouth? (please wash them first, they smell like cat food)

Erekose
06-11-2012, 09:55 AM
The best solution I have seen isn't to make a haunting or hard to kill mechanic (also I'm pretty sure Haunting replaces HtK instead of being added too), but rather add in mobs that cast DW randomly.

I prefer this approach. The supposition is that, an intelligent spell casting enemy would most likely behave along the same lines as the party would, i.e. Clerics would buff party members, hjeal each other etc.

The attractiveness of a de-buffable DW on mobs is;

a) They can be de-buffed, encouraging caster vs caster duels by way of dispel magic and greater dispel magic thus introducing a different complexity to the game,
b) Improved AI of enemy mobs should reflect their level of intelligence hence, it would be expected that a greater variety of actions be performed such as falling back to get healed, enemy groups gathering around a caster before battle to receive party mass buffs. This would be a better adaptation of initiative and the subsequent actions taken by opposing forces, and
c) Mobs without cleric or caster support would be without the benefits and would be easy to kill via AoE instant death. These easy battles would allow the high level Arcane to instant kill. This could be offset in complex battles where the Arcane would be less effective due to high level opposing divines and Arcane's buffing their melee's. Therefore, the Arcane would need to employ a more strategic approach to assist the party to over-come the combat obstacles.

The game balance would not be a blanket effect, such as the Haunting proposal, but be varied across a range of unique encounters, such as Ranger Scouts without caster support with no DW contrasted with a significant encounter involving a group of mixed enemies that may include cleric's, casters and melee. These may have numerous protective buffs cast on them and present to a party a difficult and comprehensive challenge to over come.

This approach would facilitate upfront instant kills and the option to battle well prepared and supported mobs who are impervious to instant kill unless the Arcane had unraveled their magical defenses.

Erek

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 10:03 AM
I prefer this approach. The supposition is that, an intelligent spell casting enemy would most likely behave along the same lines as the party would, i.e. Clerics would buff party members, hjeal each other etc.

The attractiveness of a de-buffable DW on mobs is;

a) They can be de-buffed, encouraging caster vs caster duels by way of dispel magic and greater dispel magic,
b) Improved AI of enemy mobs should reflect their level of intelligence hence, it would be expected that a greater variety of actions be performed such as falling back to get healed, enemy groups gathering around a caster before battle to receive party mass buffs. This would be a better adaptation of initiative and the subsequent actions taken by opposing forces, and
c) Mobs without cleric or caster support would be without the benefits and would be easy to kill via AoE instant death.

The game balance would not be a blanket effect rather, spread across a variety of encounter such as Ranger Scouts without caster support to a significant encounter with mixed enemy cleric / wizard and melee.

This approach would facilitate upfront instant kills and the option to battle well prepared and supported mobs who are impervious to instant kill unless the Arcane had unraveled their magical defenses.

Erek

The thing is this already partially exists in some form.

Look at Mindsunder, or Running with the Devils. The Menders in IQ are ALWAYS my first target to either stun, or stop from casting DW so I can use my other spells effectively (stops them from healing groups too). The Ghaeles in running cast both DW and DW Mass, and because of the inherent nature, can mess up a PM's day with all the light spells they cast.

And based off your suggestion, give us a reason to even bother with dispel, greater dispel or Mord's Disjunction.

trog_star
06-11-2012, 10:08 AM
anyone else noticeing the ddo landscape turning grey?

seams like everyone can do everything now, but nobody is good at it any more.

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 10:12 AM
anyone else noticeing the ddo landscape turning grey?

seams like everyone can do everything now, but nobody is good at it any more.

Confused by this statement.....

Erekose
06-11-2012, 10:12 AM
The thing is this already partially exists in some form.

Look at Mindsunder, or Running with the Devils. The Menders in IQ are ALWAYS my first target to either stun, or stop from casting DW so I can use my other spells effectively (stops them from healing groups too). The Ghaeles in running cast both DW and DW Mass, and because of the inherent nature, can mess up a PM's day with all the light spells they cast.

And based off your suggestion, give us a reason to even bother with dispel, greater dispel or Mord's Disjunction.

I have experimented with Dispel and Greater dispel and would say only use greater dispel. It works really well to de-buff so you can finger of death a warded mob. Good enough reason I guess.

I have also seen the DW effect proc on outsiders when you cast Banishment. This must be broken because Banishment isn't a death effect.

Banishment is based on the spell Dismissal.

"This spell forces an extraplanar creature back to its proper plane if it fails a special Will save. (DC= spell’s save DC-creature’s Hit Die+your caster level.) If the spell is successful, then the creature is instantly whisked away sending the subject to his plane. Even on a successful save the target still suffers 1d3 +3 per caster level, damage. "

http://ddowiki.com/page/Dismissal

Now does DW stop Horoth from banishing us from Shavarath? No.

justagame
06-11-2012, 10:15 AM
If the AOE's are the problem (and I do believe they lie at the heart of the issue), then this mechanic is an overkill solution that creates more unintended consqeuences than the problem it purports to solve. It also disproportionately penalizes (a) players who have invested in high DC's, and (b) divines (few comparable alternative spells and no promise of offsetting enhancements).

Too many AOE's being cast? Fine, confine the solution there.

1. Increase cooldowns on Wail and Circle a bit more. (I know it's been done already, but Implosion is at 60 seconds, and people manage to get by.)

2. Increase the SP costs on Wail significantly, and Circle and Implosion by a bit less. It's consistent with what the last spell pass was meant to do (have spell cost be more in line with power)

3. If #1 and #2 aren't enough, consider a mob cap to Wail. (Again, implosion has a cap, and people get by).

Leave the single-targets alone. Ditch this overly-complex haunting idea that will likely cause much more harm in heroic content than originally imagined.

If what folks have a problem with is the concept of a death spell that makes the bad guys go poof (as some melee fans evidently have expressed), then maybe I'm playing the wrong game, because those spells are as old as original pen and paper DnD.

One last thing, on the teamwork premise. Since when did only a melee beatdown with CC and heals become the only example of teamwork? Fingering that nasty caster before he could spam cometfalls on the party? That was teamwork. Hitting implosion so that the group of 7 mobs we ran into just became 3-4 mobs? Teamwork.

If the issue is too much wailing leaving no bodies around for anyone else, well, let's deal with it in as simple manner as possible, without messing up things that DO work.

Erekose
06-11-2012, 10:20 AM
By going from pure enchanters to more or less universally going to enchant/necro spec for AMs or necro/enchant spec for PMs? I don't know if I'd count that as flourishing, so much as just making the cookie cutter work regardless of the underlying PrE.


This New Thing... well, it may well need tweaking, but I still don't see how this is worse than the current set up for general game balance, and I say this as someone who hate hate hates blanket immunities. They're a horrible way to introduce balance. I don't like them on rednames, raid bosses, or anything else. I don't mind when a creature or type of creature is immune to stuff - if Pit Fiends all have 150% fort and are immune to mind effects and necromancy, that's one thing. But just because it's a purple named creature or 'epic'? Ew. It's not internally consistent with the game world. I digress horribly.

At it's core, the reason for this change seems to be the Devs saying "arcanes will you PLEASE give the rest of the party a chance to contribute, or we're going to have to bring back Epic Ward...". I think it certainly needs some fine tuning, and I like some of the things I've read (my favorite being that it would only apply to saves vs Death Magic, leaving QP, Assassinate and so on all working fine), but every suggestion, no matter how well received by the community all start with a fundamental acceptance of the fact that AOE instakills in their present form make things less fun for certain other roles and a solution needs to be found to it. I agree with that, certainly.

Personally, I'd be happy with them putting it live for the period between the expansion and the August update providing it came with a health warning that it WOULD be reviewed by that August update, with an explanation of the ultimate decision/changes put up on the boards for the sake of keeping people informed. And no, I don't have an end game caster so I am relatively unaffected - except insofar as I'll actually have to DO something if I run an epic quest now. Since that applies I think to all the new expansion content... well that surely can only be a good thing? Can't imagine anything worse than getting all that lovely new content but then being unable to do it without an arcane, and even worse finding that as soon as that arcane is in the group so the quest is doable, I may as well pike at the entrance.

How would a blanket Heavy Fortification go on all Epic mobs until they were down to 50%?

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 10:21 AM
I have experimented with Dispel and Greater dispel and would say only use greater dispel. It works really well to de-buff so you can finger of death a warded mob. Good enough reason I guess.


Good to know, I haven't run into THAT many Warded mobs to consider switching my spells out for it, but say your suggestion was used I'd certainly switch for it.


How would a blanket Heavy Fortification go on all Epic mobs until they were down to 50%?

That can't be bypassed, and only gets removed at 50% hp

Erekose
06-11-2012, 10:27 AM
Good to know, I haven't run into THAT many Warded mobs to consider switching my spells out for it, but say your suggestion was used I'd certainly switch for it.

A great example of greater dispel magic is in the quest Reclaiming memories.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Reclaiming_Memories

Level 19 quest. On elite you can greater dispel the orange named Skeleton and with a pimped out cleric turn him to instant kill him :)

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 10:29 AM
A great example of greater dispel magic is in the quest Reclaiming memories.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Reclaiming_Memories

Level 19 quest. On elite you can greater dispel the orange named Skeleton and with a pimped out cleric turn him to instant kill him :)

Interesting.... he's an annoyance otherwise, you know with ray spells going through him, the inability to hard target him. He's usually not that bad... tbh

trog_star
06-11-2012, 10:40 AM
Confused by this statement.....

today my cleric quite happly solo meleed down creatos on epic hard.
since everyone can hit everything now, no matter how gimp, there is no purpose for dedicated melee.

since every man and his dog is going to be no fail heal scrolling by lvl 25, theres not much use for dedicated healers.

since everone can hit everything and heal themselves, theres no real "need" for CC.
since you now need a 5 min nanna nap after clearing a room on your PM, there isnt really a point to bringing a wizard.

and this is turbines plan to make people feel included?
encoiurage teamwork?
make the game more acesable to new players?

so heres what i think is gonna happen.
were going to end up with experianced players splashing very heavaly, like 2 or 3 PrE kinda heavy.
a bazillion biffrent builds, that all do the same thing.

meanwhile, some poor noob with his newly capped pure toon is going to ask advice in the harbour only to be told that "pure is gimp" by some jaded player who asked the question last week.


hence why i ask,
does anyone else see the DDO landscape turning grey?

Erekose
06-11-2012, 10:40 AM
Interesting.... he's an annoyance otherwise, you know with ray spells going through him, the inability to hard target him. He's usually not that bad... tbh

My static TR group have been playing around with cleric turn undead after stacking the passive cleric past life 3 times for the +3 conjuration focus. Equipped with crafted Sacred, Hallowed and Silver flame gear you can clear house on almost all of Necro 1,2,3 & 4 content and any other undead encounters at level with a cleric turn undead as long as they are not DW'ed.

Cleric passive past life.

"You were a Cleric in a past life. You occasionally feel the presence of the divine. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to the DC's of your Conjuration spells, +1 Turn Undead attempt per rest, and you Turn Undead as if you were two levels higher. This feat can be stacked up to three times. "

:)

Conjurations spells.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Conjuration_spells

Stand outs are:
Acid Blast (spell)
Acid Fog
Acid Rain
Cometfall
Power Word: Kill
Trap the Soul
Web

knockcocker
06-11-2012, 10:41 AM
It's a tricky problem to solve if we're honest. I'd prefer to see something on the lines of:

1) Better AI from enemy casters (though cap caster level so we have a chance of dispelling buffs)
2) A chance for mobs to spawn with equipment (e.g. deathblock, elemental/vorpal/bane weapons etc.)
3) Split 'save vs. death' into mystical and physical - this way quivering palm, assassinate etc. can be viable whilst
retaining high resistance to mystical death effects (spells). Deathblock/Deathward should not block physical
death attacks - including players!.
4) AOE death effects should be:
4a) Capped on the number of mobs they affect in a single cast (OR use the number of mobs in the AOE to lower
the DC - e.g. every mob over four gives -2 DC ?)
4b) Variable spell point cost. e.g. perhaps Wail should cost 20sp for every mob killed, 10sp for those that save.
Saved mobs take 1d4 negative levels and have the shaken affect applied
4c) Leave the caster vulnerable in some way for a short time (e.g. stunned, fort reduction - something along
those lines)
4d) Caster automatically gets aggro.

I'd like to retain the power but add some downsides which can be mitigated by player skill, teamwork and strategy.

Snapdragoon
06-11-2012, 10:50 AM
perhaps leave FoD and single targets alone

but on wail and the like add 10-20 sec per mob killed as a haunting effect. in during that time increase the effect of neg energy attacks like necrotic ray and the neg energy SLA's

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 10:56 AM
It's a tricky problem to solve if we're honest. I'd prefer to see something on the lines of:

1) Better AI from enemy casters (though cap caster level so we have a chance of dispelling buffs) Agreed
2) A chance for mobs to spawn with equipment (e.g. deathblock, elemental/vorpal/bane weapons etc.) Agreed
3) Split 'save vs. death' into mystical and physical - this way quivering palm, assassinate etc. can be viable whilst
retaining high resistance to mystical death effects (spells). Deathblock/Deathward should not block physical
death attacks - including players!. Agreed
4) AOE death effects should be:
4a) Capped on the number of mobs they affect in a single cast (OR use the number of mobs in the AOE to lower
the DC - e.g. every mob over four gives -2 DC ?) Circle of Death is ALREADY capped at 4 mobs, buit that's becuase it's a ranged aoe, and 4 spell levels lower. Wail requires you to get in the middle of a group, and SURVIVE long enough to cast it. a - to dc's or a cap would make the spell useless, and mess up any other dc based necromancy spell.
4b) Variable spell point cost. e.g. perhaps Wail should cost 20sp for every mob killed, 10sp for those that save.
Saved mobs take 1d4 negative levels and have the shaken affect applied I can only imagine how bad this would be to code in, and also push people away from using it in the first place. Not a good idea to "balance" out a spell.
4c) Leave the caster vulnerable in some way for a short time (e.g. stunned, fort reduction - something along
those lines) Pale masters in particular already have vulnerabilities. As it's been pointed out light spells are SUPPOSED to deal double dmg on pale masters in forms, but the math is actually x4 on all forms, and x8 on vamp. It's a bug, but still a vulnerability. This would also negatively impact non-pale master characters
4d) Caster automatically gets aggro. For the most part this is actually true already. Many mobs go for the caster first as we do the same thing. Also if you are a TR in a mostly non TR group, you already have more hate than the non tr's

I'd like to retain the power but add some downsides which can be mitigated by player skill, teamwork and strategy.

Quotes in red

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 10:57 AM
perhaps leave FoD and single targets alone

but on wail and the like add 10-20 sec per mob killed as a haunting effect. in during that time increase the effect of neg energy attacks like necrotic ray and the neg energy SLA's

Isn't increasing the damage to the point where it's just going to one shot enemies on a single cast going to defeat the purpose of nerfing instant kill spells.... why even bother.

knockcocker
06-11-2012, 11:11 AM
Circle of Death is ALREADY capped at 4 mobs, buit that's becuase it's a ranged aoe, and 4 spell levels lower. Wail requires you to get in the middle of a group, and SURVIVE long enough to cast it. a - to dc's or a cap would make the spell useless, and mess up any other dc based necromancy spell.

Well, honestly, there's not really an issue surviving. Jump into the middle of mobs whilst hitting Wail - it's not difficult.
If you don't kill them all, that needs to be an 'Oh ****!' moment. For the DCs, I wasn't talking about a persisent
affect merely dilution of the instantaneous effect. This way, the guys who have ground for the gear will still have a
realistic chance of killing everything whilst those that haven't will need to be more cautious. Especially if the hazard
of failure is increased.



I can only imagine how bad this would be to code in, and also push people away from using it in the first place. Not a good idea to "balance" out a spell.


Agreed. I was just brainstorming :). I would not be too optimistic of them being able to implement this without
bugs when they don't seem to be able to figure out the die caps on spells properly.



Pale masters in particular already have vulnerabilities. As it's been pointed out light spells are SUPPOSED to deal double dmg on pale masters in forms, but the math is actually x4 on all forms, and x8 on vamp. It's a bug, but still a vulnerability. This would also negatively impact non-pale master characters


Don't agree. There needs to be a risk - which can be mitigated with skill and/or teamwork/strategy. At the moment,
pop up death aura(s) and you're generally OK regardless of what happens. If a PM, you can get vaporized by Sunburst - that's fine in my book. What about dazed/confused which prevents spellcasting for a few seconds?



For the most part this is actually true already. Many mobs go for the caster first as we do the same thing. Also if you are a TR in a mostly non TR group, you already have more hate than the non tr's


I don't think hate from fellow group members counts! ;)

varusso
06-11-2012, 11:23 AM
I've been considering the new "Haunting" proposal as outlined by Turbine, and I can honestly say two things about it.

1. It is a step in the right direction
2. I hate it.

I'm not going to go into the details of why, that's another thread. Here is my alternate proposal:

Haunted - Effect
For every enemy killed by an AOE death effect (Wail, Circle of Death, Implosion, etc..etc..) a stacking +(X) Spell point cost is added to these spells.

These costs decrease by (X) per (X) seconds.
These costs can have a cap of (X) number of points.


Possible example:
A caster goes in and wails 10 mobs.
They now have an effective +10SP cost to the casting of another AOE.
These could devalue at 1 per 2 seconds. (Or whatever, the math isn't important, the concept is.)

Thoughts?


This will allow the original mechanic Turbine was going for: Making instant AOE death spells more costly, without taking away any functionality from the caster. (Hard earned DC's!)

It simply taxes their spell points more and hits them where it hurts.

Tl;Dr - Instead of penalizing DC's, penalize spell point cost

This is better, at least. The players who excel in their class and spent alot of time investing in that toon would still bear the brunt of the penalty, but it would not nerf them down to the level of the player who spent NO time working on their toon, as the current turbine proposal does. 1 SP per mob, with a hard cap on the penalty, is not too bad, but can add up on an injudicious wailer.

So long as there is a hard-cap on the cost penalty, a reasonable removal timer, and the penalty is ONLY increased by AOE and not single-target spells, I could see this as viable balance. I dont think it hits quite as hard as turbine wants, but going their current route is only going to tick off a very large portion of the customer who pay to play this game. Myself included.

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 11:29 AM
Well, honestly, there's not really an issue surviving. Jump into the middle of mobs whilst hitting Wail - it's not difficult.
If you don't kill them all, that needs to be an 'Oh ****!' moment. For the DCs, I wasn't talking about a persistent affect merely dilution of the instantaneous effect. This way, the guys who have ground for the gear will still have a realistic chance of killing everything whilst those that haven't will need to be more cautious. Especially if the hazard of failure is increased. Honestly though lower the dc's should not be the solution. That would be like punishing a barbarian for getting a high str value and then taking it away per successful swing. The random generating of items on mobs would be one of the best approaches, as would giving divine mobs a dispellable dw (one they cast)

Don't agree. There needs to be a risk - which can be mitigated with skill and/or teamwork/strategy. At the moment,
pop up death aura(s) and you're generally OK regardless of what happens. If a PM, you can get vaporized by Sunburst - that's fine in my book. What about dazed/confused which prevents spellcasting for a few seconds? Which makes me wonder, why would they be confused, or dazed? They know what they are casting, thematically it doesn't fit

I don't think hate from fellow group members counts! ;) Lol, I'm sure you got my meaning though, the enemy mobs are already programmed to go after the first one they see. If a legend is in a group of 28 pt build players, the legend generally gets the agro first, regardless of class. Damage is also built into the hate mechanic with gear that helps that (incite)

Comments in red

And as far as in game populations go, I think there are more non-spellcaster toons on at any given moment than many spellcasters. Many people follow the old raid composition of 8-10 melees, 1-2 casters. and 2 healers. But in recent times (U9) that has changed, slowly. There are many raid leaders who still swear by this formula.

trog_star
06-11-2012, 11:32 AM
i see prysmatic ray/spray getting spammed allot

knockcocker
06-11-2012, 11:37 AM
Honestly though lower the dc's should not be the solution. That would be like punishing a barbarian for getting a high str value and then taking it away per successful swing. The random generating of items on mobs would be one of the best approaches, as would giving divine mobs a dispellable dw (one they cast)

The problem I'm trying to address is herding up twenty mobs then wailing them all. That, thematically, *should* be
harder IMO and the ones left over should be pretty angry with you. The limits I proposed were purely arbitrary to
illustrate the idea. I also don't want to penalize guys who have ground out gear and what-not to get the very best
necro DC in the game. That *should* be worth something. If it were me in charge, I'd like to enable it that you
could still steamroller everything as long as you had the gear and the skill to do so. As I said in my
initial post, it's difficult.

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 11:50 AM
The problem I'm trying to address is herding up twenty mobs then wailing them all. That, thematically, *should* be
harder IMO and the ones left over should be pretty angry with you. The limits I proposed were purely arbitrary to
illustrate the idea. I also don't want to penalize guys who have ground out gear and what-not to get the very best
necro DC in the game. That *should* be worth something. If it were me in charge, I'd like to enable it that you
could still steamroller everything as long as you had the gear and the skill to do so. As I said in my
initial post, it's difficult.

Based off of the solutions given though, wouldn't the best solution then to avoid penalizing the high dc casters (myself included) be improving mob ai in some fashion, be it the inclusion of random AI buffs, random gear attachments, or ai using the area to it's advantage.

At least this way we still have a chance to wail a mob of creatures, but then find out that 3 or 4 survived because today they woke up, and put Deathblock items on. The next time you do the quest a different amount of a randomly selected mobs have the deathblock. Plus add in the cleric enemies using DW to their advantage and it isn't a steamroll through the dungeon anymore, but you still have your usefulness intact, just you have to shift your goal from killing everything to a bit of cc and buff removal (and also Disjunction would actually become useful if mobs had items)

jortann
06-11-2012, 12:02 PM
i was thinking making it so instead of lowering DC, it increases the spell cooldown depending on the # of enemies killed by said spell (so it'll effect the AoE a lot more than single targets)

This seems like a great idea. Add 5 seconds to the cooldown for ever mob killed by the spell. A sucessful FoD would have a 5 second longer cooldown. A WoB that kills 6 would have a 30 second longer cooldown.

I think the cooldowns is the solution to the problem.

If you try it with spell point costs, people will just drink pots to overcome it.

dunklezhan
06-11-2012, 12:06 PM
How would a blanket Heavy Fortification go on all Epic mobs until they were down to 50%?

On Epic, they should all have heavy fort anyway. I mean, all the players over L10 do. There are ablities for bypassing Heavy fort both on both sides now, so there's no reason more monsters shouldn't have it.

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 12:23 PM
This seems like a great idea. Add 5 seconds to the cooldown for ever mob killed by the spell. A sucessful FoD would have a 5 second longer cooldown. A WoB that kills 6 would have a 30 second longer cooldown.

I think the cooldowns is the solution to the problem.

If you try it with spell point costs, people will just drink pots to overcome it.

Why cool downs, it was already done, and the cool downs are fine as they are. As I stated in many posts before (if you read them) that better ai and development of mobs (items and such) solve this problem.

jortann
06-11-2012, 12:56 PM
Why cool downs, it was already done, and the cool downs are fine as they are. As I stated in many posts before (if you read them) that better ai and development of mobs (items and such) solve this problem.

The improved AI would be a great approach, but I dont think it is going to happen. You are asking Turbine to go back through all of its epic content and design a new AI for it's mobs. I'm guessing thats a pile of work. That is why we see universal systems that can be applied to all quests. Things like the 'Hard to Kill' mechanic; its simple to implement.

And the cooldowns are not long enough and we all know it. 30 seconds for WoB and CoD. That means every 15 seconds you can throw an AOE death spell. Add in a little bit of time to finger that one that missed the wail and the running to the next room and the cooldowns are hardly ever an issue.

If the cooldowns were longer we would be forced to be more creative, but as it stands now we dont need to be.

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 01:20 PM
Ok adding items, yeah that would pretty tough, but still doable. As for taking code they already have and placing it onto other mobs of the divine variety (I assume they have each mob labeled in some fashion in the code) that enables them to cast DW, or DW Mass would probably solve the problem just the same.

Upping cooldowns, lowering dc's, they basically tell players "Don't build your character around dc's folks, otherwise you'll get nerfed too"

I cast almost all of my offensive spells on a regular basis for offensive or crowd control spells I actively use Necrotic Bolt/Blast , Polar Ray, Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt, occasionally Ice Storm, Necrotic Ray, Ottos Sphere of Dancing, Ottos Irresistible Dance, Eladars Electric Surge, Niacs Biting Cold, FoD, CoD, WoB, Power Word Stun/Kill, Cloudkill and I consider Death Aura both offensive and defensive.

And that's just offensive spells....

I don't see how we (as players) are going to be more creative when we are pigeonholed into using LESS spells because of arbitrary nerfs. Sure MY spells are effective (not Wail effective) but I spent the last couple years perfecting my wizard to the point he's at now.

Edit: Also 30 seconds are plenty long, remember they used to be 6 seconds (3 on sorcs) for cooldowns. 30 seconds is about 5 times the length of the old cool down. 30 seconds are fine

knockcocker
06-11-2012, 01:31 PM
Based off of the solutions given though, wouldn't the best solution then to avoid penalizing the high dc casters (myself included) be improving mob ai in some fashion, be it the inclusion of random AI buffs, random gear attachments, or ai using the area to it's advantage.

At least this way we still have a chance to wail a mob of creatures, but then find out that 3 or 4 survived because today they woke up, and put Deathblock items on. The next time you do the quest a different amount of a randomly selected mobs have the deathblock. Plus add in the cleric enemies using DW to their advantage and it isn't a steamroll through the dungeon anymore, but you still have your usefulness intact, just you have to shift your goal from killing everything to a bit of cc and buff removal (and also Disjunction would actually become useful if mobs had items)

Agree.

Kabaon
06-11-2012, 01:46 PM
Oh great. Well Haunting is out, but Wail was super nerfed

1 min cool down, 6 mob hard cap for wail, works like implosion.

Lame. Go go turbine, way to impress me with your genius coding skills >.>

knockcocker
06-11-2012, 03:24 PM
Oh great. Well Haunting is out, but Wail was super nerfed

1 min cool down, 6 mob hard cap for wail, works like implosion.

Lame. Go go turbine, way to impress me with your genius coding skills >.>

Yeah, that's almost a new class of nerf.

Zerkul
06-11-2012, 03:28 PM
I'm not a programmer, neither a pale master, but is too difficult to code a cap for the number of mobs killed from a Wail without making it an aura like implosion? I think would be much better a cap, say something like 1 mob per 2 caster levels killed but retain the istant feature.

justagame
06-11-2012, 03:31 PM
While yes, it's a nerf to Wail, I'm not as pessimistic:

1. 8 (10?) mobs is fairly reasonable. How often does one wish to instakill more at once? And in those rare cases when you do, SHOULD a single spell be able to instakill more than that?

2. The neg levels on a save is actually a pretty nice silver lining. Preps mobs nicely to be taken care of with other spells.

3. The timing aspect actually allows some influence over which mobs are effected, as you can move around during this time.

It's still more potent than Implosion (also a level 9 spell)

Certon
06-11-2012, 05:24 PM
For AoE death spells, the most elegant solution is to apply decreasing DC to the spell for every successfully killed target.

Example:

Durod the Necromancer has a DC of 41 on his Wail of the Banshee. He stands in the middle of six mobs and Wails. The first monster checks to see if he dies and rolls a 19. 19+31=50, so the mob saves. The DC of the spell remains 41. The next mob rolls a 1 and dies. The DC of the spell drops to 39. The next mob rolls a 17. 17+31=49. He saves. The DC of the spell remains 39. The next mob rolls a 9. 9+31=40, so he also saves. The following mob rolls a 7. 7+31=38. He dies. The spell drops to DC 37. The final mob also rolls a 7. 7+31=38. He survives. If the previous mob had saved, he would have died on that roll.

Anyway, reducing it by 2 per save is arbitrary, and can vary in the spell description. This also adds versatility to items, as items might exist that do not increase DC but instead reduce the penalty by 1 or somethingorother...

danotmano1998
06-11-2012, 05:34 PM
Well, this thread was made as if haunting was going to go in regardless, and thoughts on how to make it easier on everyone. Haunting has been rethought, so it's really a moot point now.

My personal choice would have been to either beef up mob saves/sr as needed, or to mix up the encounters in such a way that there was a mix, some instakillable, some not.

;)

Urjak
06-11-2012, 07:00 PM
first off: I played a lot of epics during the last winter ... and I still have to encounter that super-awesome pale master who can just wail-zerg through epics ... sure in some quests this is possible. especially phantoms, snitch, ~last stand, ~into the deep, ~claw, ~partycrashers, ~small problem and ~big top come to mind. (the ~ means only up to some degree) ... before I TRed my wiz I had a 41 necro DC (with all selfbuffs) and I have to say I was far away from being able to zerg-wail through epics ... overall I'd say my success rate on instakills was around 50% ... sure on some foes I had a nearly 100% success rate ... on others a nearly 0% rate though^^ ... you see where this is going? you have to look at the bigger picture^^ ... only because a wizard can quickly finish off some mobs and zerg through some easy epics, doesn't mean that there is such a big problem ... at least not because of necromancy ... the real problem is:

casters can
.) CC (i am viewing instakilling as some sort of very effective CC since essentially it has about the same effect)
.) deal high DPS ... with the usage of store pots this DPS is also unlimited
.) stay out of harms way most of the time (kiting)
.) and last but not least: selfheal

so: awwwww you disable necromancy in order to balance wizards? well, then wizards will just use mass hold and some aoe damage spell ... unless mob hp is increased by a large amount, this tactic will allow a wizard to solo-zerg through epics just the same as now with necromancy ... the only issue is that this change will **** off a lot of people who invested a lot of time in raising their necro dc (and spell pen) ... also this might be the end of fleshy wizards ... with archmage being better than pale master after this changes, the appeal to go wf instead of pale master for selfhealing becomes a lot bigger^^

and then we get a vague promise that the haunted status might give bonuses to negative energy spells when the enhancement pass comes? ... when will that be? ... in a year? two? ... druids took what? 6 years? ... who wants to wait for such a vague time, just for a chance that there *might* be *some* bonus to negative energy^^ ... if you plan on this: postbone the haunting change to the date we get the enhancement change!

okay this was enough of exaggerating^^ ... so here a serious suggestion on how I think the myth of super-awesome solo-zerg-wailing pale masters, which IMO only exists on this forums, since I still have to see one on live, can be fixed:

so far i think we all agree that single target instakills are no problem at all ... the ones that *may* be problematic are circle of death, wail and implosion, whereby only wail is the real problem, since the other ones have a maximum number of creatures that can be affected.

I think the best way to deal with this is something similiar to haunting ... I call it "decremential dc":
For every creature successfully killed by this spell, the dc decreases by 1 (or 2 on epic elite). I know this short description is easy to misunderstand^^ ... thus here an example:

A 46 necro dc wizards faces 10 mobs with a +27 fortitude save ... the successrate to land a necro spell would be 90% => on live the wizard in this example would on average kill 9 of them with one wail ... so lets see how this would work out with my suggestion on any difficulty but epic elite:

1st mob rolls 5 + 27 = 32 < 46 => dies => dc is now 45
2nd mob rolls 15 + 27 = 42 < 45 => dies => dc is now 44
3rd mob rolls 3 + 27 = 30 < 44 => dies => dc is now 43
4th mob rolls 17 + 27 = 44 > 43 => lives => dc unchanged
5th mob rolls 7 + 27 = 34 < 43 => dies => dc is now 42
6th mob rolls 13 + 27 = 40 < 42 => dies => dc is now 41
7th mob rolls 1 => autofail => dies => dc is now 40
8th mob rolls 20 => autosuccess => lives => dc unchanged
9th mob rolls 9 + 27 = 36 < 40 => dies => dc is now 39
10th mob rolls 11 + 27 = 38 < 39 => dies => dc would be 38 now, but since there are no more mobs within the aoe of this wail, the dc resets to 46

now lets look at the same situation in epic elite:
1st mob rolls 5 + 27 = 32 < 46 => dies => dc is now 44
2nd mob rolls 15 + 27 = 42 < 44 => dies => dc is now 42
3rd mob rolls 3 + 27 = 30 < 42 => dies => dc is now 40
4th mob rolls 17 + 27 = 44 > 40 => lives => dc unchanged
5th mob rolls 7 + 27 = 34 < 40 => dies => dc is now 38
6th mob rolls 13 + 27 = 40 > 38 => lives => dc unchanged
7th mob rolls 1 => autofail => dies => dc is now 36
8th mob rolls 20 => autosuccess => lives => dc unchanged
9th mob rolls 9 + 27 = 36 = 36 => lives => dc unchanged
10th mob rolls 11 + 27 = 38 > 36 => lives => dc unchanged, since there are no more mobs within the aoe of this wail, the dc resets to 46

in the example the wail would kill 9/10 on live, 8/10 in my suggestion and 5/10 in my suggestion for epic elite ... NOTE the DC always resets after the effect of the spell was calculated ... so no waiting til the penalty wears off or the like ... its just: the more mobs you affect the higher the chance that some of the mobs survive

IdyllShade
06-11-2012, 07:06 PM
The way I look at it, insta kills aren't the root of the problem - inflated monster HP and lack of choice are. Both of these together make any change to the way that instants work unpalletable.

If there were another method was was even remotely comparable to the pace that instakills give this wouldn't be such a big issue, but the wall of HP that is Epic trash just makes it so much more efficient that even classes that normally wouldn't focus on insta kills end up casting them quite often. Nuking just isn't effective enough, and melee just isn't effective enough. Give non-necro focused casters a reasonable alternative to insta kills and they will not feel the need to spam them every CD.

For the PM, it's very difficult to nerf insta kills without really harming the spec since it's just about all they have. This is really caused by a lack of choice - the necro school contains all of one damage spell that isn't an insta-kill. Throw in some spells that give PMs some other means of doing damage so that whatever the nerf to insta kills end up being, it doesn't kill the performance of the spec entirely (in some ways I liked the option with Haunting that would buff other spells depending on how many stacks existed - it at least provided an interesting way to trade off insta-kills vs nuking).

Azre
06-11-2012, 10:04 PM
The way I look at it, insta kills aren't the root of the problem - inflated monster HP and lack of choice are. Both of these together make any change to the way that instants work unpalletable.


Thank you, finally someone noticed it.

I've liked the ideas some have posted it here, specially the one which increases spellpoint cost instead of lowering dc's, something akin to mental fatigue.

However, for once I would love more insta kill spells... spells that are NOT from necromancy school. How about the weird spell (illusion mass PK?).

The whole 2-3 school system (for those odd transmutation AM's out there) is just absurd.

Another more reasonable approach is to make enchantment spells infer a small penalty to necromancy spells. That ways casters can't entirely overpower trash of mobs.

This works along the lines of: Held/danced mobs, recieve a severe penalty to reflex saves, a moderate penalty to will saves and a buff to their fortitude saves, and make these penalties stack.

So if you have a dancing sphere it's bad enough, if you use mindfog and hold, you're basically impeded (unless you have obscene dc's) from wailing them.

This would make casters think twice before mindlessly spamming enchant spells and circle then wailing everything inside.

I just don't get where this whole: 'let's hate on instakills' come from.

Why not complain about holds then?, oh I see... as long as *you* get the kills, in regardless of where the mobs just sit there looking pretty, and can't fight back, like killing fish in a barrel with a grenade is your idea of... 'fun' and 'teamwork'?.

Spells are powerful, they were meant to be that way. D&D has a long history of that.

Don't punish casters that went through a very arduous process to build their toons to have what casters are meant to have... high dc's. If you think wizards can instakill everything under the sun with one spell... I suggest you go roll one up. And don't try house P or Lords of Dust. Go into eCoF, then come back and tell me how that worked for you.

What's next, punishing barbs for getting high strength?.

akiraproject24
06-12-2012, 08:56 AM
For AoE death spells, the most elegant solution is to apply decreasing DC to the spell for every successfully killed target.

Example:

Durod the Necromancer has a DC of 41 on his Wail of the Banshee. He stands in the middle of six mobs and Wails. The first monster checks to see if he dies and rolls a 19. 19+31=50, so the mob saves. The DC of the spell remains 41. The next mob rolls a 1 and dies. The DC of the spell drops to 39. The next mob rolls a 17. 17+31=49. He saves. The DC of the spell remains 39. The next mob rolls a 9. 9+31=40, so he also saves. The following mob rolls a 7. 7+31=38. He dies. The spell drops to DC 37. The final mob also rolls a 7. 7+31=38. He survives. If the previous mob had saved, he would have died on that roll.

Anyway, reducing it by 2 per save is arbitrary, and can vary in the spell description. This also adds versatility to items, as items might exist that do not increase DC but instead reduce the penalty by 1 or somethingorother...

Why would anyone grind gear to improve DCs at this rate...I wouldnt bother...Id make a nuker and call it a day

akiraproject24
06-12-2012, 09:03 AM
Thank you, finally someone noticed it.

I've liked the ideas some have posted it here, specially the one which increases spellpoint cost instead of lowering dc's, something akin to mental fatigue.

However, for once I would love more insta kill spells... spells that are NOT from necromancy school. How about the weird spell (illusion mass PK?).

The whole 2-3 school system (for those odd transmutation AM's out there) is just absurd.

Another more reasonable approach is to make enchantment spells infer a small penalty to necromancy spells. That ways casters can't entirely overpower trash of mobs.

This works along the lines of: Held/danced mobs, recieve a severe penalty to reflex saves, a moderate penalty to will saves and a buff to their fortitude saves, and make these penalties stack.

So if you have a dancing sphere it's bad enough, if you use mindfog and hold, you're basically impeded (unless you have obscene dc's) from wailing them.

This would make casters think twice before mindlessly spamming enchant spells and circle then wailing everything inside.

I just don't get where this whole: 'let's hate on instakills' come from.

Why not complain about holds then?, oh I see... as long as *you* get the kills, in regardless of where the mobs just sit there looking pretty, and can't fight back, like killing fish in a barrel with a grenade is your idea of... 'fun' and 'teamwork'?.

Spells are powerful, they were meant to be that way. D&D has a long history of that.

Don't punish casters that went through a very arduous process to build their toons to have what casters are meant to have... high dc's. If you think wizards can instakill everything under the sun with one spell... I suggest you go roll one up. And don't try house P or Lords of Dust. Go into eCoF, then come back and tell me how that worked for you.

What's next, punishing barbs for getting high strength?.

Nice post bro...yeah House P chain and Lords of Dust are epic jokes..same with the BoB. What happens is Turbine puts X in the game to make your DC uber. X is tough to get, one must invest time and energy in X over and over again. Finally you complete X your DC is pretty sweet. You then go into ELOD, EBOB,EBig Top and you walk all over those quests...people wine people cry that "casters are too OP". Trust me an ungeared PM is not OP I leveled one for a past life on my "druid blank". Compared to my geared and pampered PM it was a joke of a toon def not OP. Meahwhile the whiners spent 2 weeks in House P chain making an axe or armor for their toon while you spent 6-12 months or more! out in the Sands making your item...of course you should have morer power....You G*d Dam*ed earned it!

But the fact remains nerf us, beat us call us ugly women...the fat cats in this game will just adjust and find a new way to be OP (albeit with whining and crying) things will quietly settle to a state of boredom again...the next GREATEST MMO will be on the horizon...people will swear they are going there...and the game will continue at least it has...I dont like change Im not gonna lie. I like it when Ive gotten to the top of the game gear and build wise...and I dont like to have to swap things around again...even though without that change I sit around in vent saying "Im bored...."