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Aalric
06-09-2012, 08:17 PM
There's been a lot of talk about how both pm & tanks will be hit by U14. There's another class that is also in trouble, perhaps even more than the other 2 - that's monks who, after U14 will be DDO's new glass cannons.

Armor wearers are getting more AC on their armors. This will more than make up for their loss of dodge items. Even when they get hit, they have PRR to soak up some of the dmg & deaden the pain. & in the closed Beta, Torc said quite clearly that without these changes, melee wouldn't be viable - they would simply be receiving too much dmg & would die.

But where does that leave monks?

Monks MUST wear cloth. Cloth does not get an armor boost. As a matter of fact, a monk on beta tends to have less ac then on live because his dodge items don't count towards his ac & his ac has not been boosted like other armored melee.

When a monk gets hit, he only has PRR in mountain stance, which is much less than provided by armor.

Now a monk does have unlimited dodge. This sounds good in theory but it is really useless in practice (at least the way it is currently implemented). An armored melee gets most of his ac from 1 - 2 single items (his armor & shield, if he uses one) and can use all of his other items for dps. A monk would have to use almost every slot for dodge increasing items & even then, would probably not have enough dodge to make that big a difference. And we still have the problem about what happens when a monk gets hit - he doesn't have the hp of a fighter or barb or their PRR - how is he meant to survive?

In short, we need something to give monks either more AC, substantially more dodge (maybe both their wisdom & dex bonuses - still not sure if it would be enough) and more PRR.

Turbine has put a lot of effort into monks. They have changed the way their dmg works, made an interesting epic destiny & are even looking at handwrap bugs. But if they don’t fix this, there will simply be no point in playing monks - they will have gone from being one of the most resilient melee's to being glass cannons who have less hp & less ability to survive. &, tbh, although they will defiantly be glass, I am not even sure if they will be cannons because the "Hard to kill" nerf will probably effect quivering palm & touch of death.

InsanityIsYourFriend
06-09-2012, 08:25 PM
tod is not a death effect, it does 500 negative dmg or 250 on a save, so unless the hard to kill makes them impervious to negative dmg then the tod will work, though quivering palm hardly works less you invest heavily in it, and... with the hard to kill i will be taking it off my bar completely

t0r012
06-09-2012, 08:28 PM
tod is not a death effect, it does 500 negative dmg or 250 on a save, so unless the hard to kill makes them impervious to negative dmg then the tod will work, though quivering palm hardly works less you invest heavily in it, and... with the hard to kill i will be taking it off my bar completely

only planning on playing hard/elite epics?
did you have a 37+ DC with your QP that was doing much in the old epics?

Aalric
06-09-2012, 08:33 PM
hard to kill was initially a deathward - that may have stopped TOD becuase it's a negative energy effect. It's now haunting & I have no idea how that will effect TOD...

But this wasn't the main point of my thread & it's just nit picking. perhaps we will be cannons, perhaps we won't be. We will definately be made out of glass.

FranOhmsford
06-09-2012, 09:23 PM
Clerics aren't getting Armour Bonuses/PRR that they should be getting as Hvy Armour Wearers.
They're losing Implosion/Destruction etc. as viable spells.
They're losing Damage on Blade Barrier.
They're losing Healing power too BUT this is minor.

AC/PRR is the big one however - Radiant Servant basically requires that you be standing in the middle of the ruck and the AC changes are going to make AC a requirement so Clerics are going to take FAR FAR more damage.

Clonks will be broken completely by the looks of things.

Monks/PMs/Tanks etc. may have it bad BUT:

Clerics are getting the biggest kicking!

Stillwaters
06-09-2012, 09:47 PM
Clerics aren't getting Armour Bonuses/PRR that they should be getting as Hvy Armour Wearers. <-same bonuses under divine power though

They're losing Implosion/Destruction etc. as viable spells.<- bull! cooldown on implosion takes care of most of the penalty from the MAX 5 mobs you will kill from it, destruction and slay living are getting a small nerf if you constantly spammed them

They're losing Damage on Blade Barrier. <- Blade barrier damage is for artificers, and its much easier to find items that boost it now didnt you get the memo?

They're losing Healing power too BUT this is minor. < spell changes have taken most of the GEAR benefits down and raised the value of enhancements and metas, Heal and MASS heal take a hit the other cures and bursts do better

AC/PRR is the big one however - Radiant Servant basically requires that you be standing in the middle of the ruck and the AC changes are going to make AC a requirement so Clerics are going to take FAR FAR more damage. <-- more than they do on live, past about lvl 11??

Clonks will be broken completely by the looks of things. <- totally agree here cloth builds are screwed over HARD

Monks/PMs/Tanks etc. may have it bad BUT:

Clerics are getting the biggest kicking!

My responses in COLOR

MrWindupBird
06-09-2012, 10:09 PM
hard to kill was initially a deathward - that may have stopped TOD becuase it's a negative energy effect. It's now haunting & I have no idea how that will effect TOD...

But this wasn't the main point of my thread & it's just nit picking. perhaps we will be cannons, perhaps we won't be. We will definately be made out of glass.

Yes. The Devs have alluded to the fact that monk AC/defenses are still under consideration, but there hasnt been any development on this front.
There are really two frames of reference here: DPS monks vs armored melees, and monk tanking builds vs armored tanks.

The problems:
A. The addition of higher base armor classes relatively disadvantages monks. Consider something like the new Cormyrian red armor posted in the U14 items list: the heavy armor is 28armor/2maxdex vs 9armor for the robes. So, that's a 21pt difference to make up in dex/wis modifiers. That's a lot, but it's not unreasonable, although the number required for parity will be a bit higher than 21 due to mobility/enhancements/etc with max dex bonus on the armor.

B. PRR. This is a big one. Right now, monks are getting screwed on PRR. And it's a bigger deal than you think, even. Nevermind the fact that monks cannot achieve any meaningful PRR without being in earth stance, which is not going to be desirable for non-tank monks, and that the effective monk PRR cap for a toon focussed on it is far far lower than a fighter or paladin tank in heavy armor with a shield. The issue I havent seen discussed is one of both HP and variance. We can calculate the total damage mitigation as an iterative combination of concealment/dodge/AC/PRR whatever else I'm missing. The problem with using this as a measure however is that it ignores the variance of incoming damage, ie the spiky-ness. As anyone who has ever healed a tank knows, spiky damage is bad, and harder/more resource intensive to heal than an equivalent amount of damage occurring at predictable intervals. This spikiness problem is compounded with a lower hp total of the tank. Monks suffer from both problems at once.
Even if they were able to achieve comparable damage mitigation to heavy-armor-wearers via increased dodge relative to lower AC and far lower PRR (for a variety of reasons this seems unlikely to be the case but we'll give the monk the benefit of the doubt for the moment), this results in much spikier incoming damage, due to the mitigation coming from dodge rather than PRR. And monks dont have the feats, toughness enhancements, hit dice or +x%hp from defender stances to accomodate this spikiness with a large HP-pool. Spiky damage + lower hp = not a very good tank. So I am not optimistic about the potential for monk tanks, at least for bosses with high physical damage output. Spell-heavy bosses may be fine. All of this is independent of the fact that the tanking bonuses earth stances offers are strictly inferior to those of the defender stances, incidentally, which furthers the conclusion of the obsolescence of monk tanks.

C. Dodge! Monks can dodge at least, right? The amount of dodge they can get is uncapped, they must be awesome at it! Not so much.
I'd like to see monks become the dodge-y melees, even though this is strictly inferior to equivalent PRR, from a tanking standpoint, as discussed above. But as things stand, monks are exactly as good at dodging as arty, wiz, sorc, cleric, FVS, bard, druid, pally and ranger, and worse than rogues and barbs. Which is to say that only rogue and barb currently have class-dependent bonuses to dodge. Everything else is gear and feats. And Epic Destiny enhancements (3% is found in Grandmaster of Flowers, the rest elsewhere). But a monk can slot lots of dodge and make use of that uncapped max dodge bonus right? Again, not so much. For one, dodge is slottable but doing so precludes using that slot for other purposes (DPS, utility, other survivability). Expecting additional use of slots to balance defensive abilities isn't a very good idea. Further, it's not difficult to push light armors into the low 20s for max dex bonus, which is more dodge than you're ever going to be realistically able to slot anyway. So that supposed advantage is also null.


I'd like to see the problem of monk-squishiness addressed via dodge- this seems most appropriate to the defensive abilities of the class. Monks would still cede the position of excellent tanks for bosses who deal a lot of physical damage, due to the PRR/hp pool issues, but would remain useful melee who can stand some aggro. The issue with implementing it is to tie the dodge bonus to monk levels somehow. The issue with the strength of 2-monk-splash for AC-tanks was that the Wis-to-AC vested immediately with just one level of monk, which does create some balancing issues. A few possibilities I can see: the possibility of wis (and perhaps dex) to dodge has been broached a few times. I think this is a pretty reasonable solution. It would add a large chunk of dodge and alleviate a lot of the pain. The problem then becomes how to distribute it, so that the monk-y goodness actually scales with levels of monk, vs being entirely upfront as it was previously. An obvious answer would be to tie the dodge to stances somehow, although that might have the problem of penalizing players who frequently switch stance situationally but do not have them all at master/grandmaster level. Another option would be to tie it to monk level, such that the max % dodge bonus you get would be min(monk level, wisModifier) or a similar permutation.

Just some thoughts I've had. Also, I realize that there are other classes who are being overlooked/diminished also, such as rangers. Unfortunately, I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to advocate for those classes.

JollySwagMan
06-09-2012, 10:45 PM
This comes as a bit of a change - on live, a 20 Monk in Earth IV stance has some pretty nice DR while full-out attacking!

One uniquely Monk-ish way of addressing the problem might be introducing more Monk combos that could temporarily boost Dodge (or blocking DR, Fortification or other defensive attributes). Self-target only probably. Perhaps have the finishing move activated by holding block when hitting the finisher key.

Mind, I haven't asked yet - any differences in Ki generation/maintenance using the new system?

Another may be improving Tumble's effectiveness in avoiding attacks - does Tumbling provide a Dodge bonus in the new system? That could be a nice option for more than just Monks.

CarpeNoctu
06-09-2012, 11:08 PM
Monks MUST wear cloth. Cloth does not get an armor boost.

Are you sure about this? Some of the cloth has a + value to it now, and when I switched out some regular outfit for a +3 outfit the other day, my AC went up by 3 (don't remember the % change and still haven't totally gotten my head around that).

I could easily be wrong, but it seems to me that the easiest way to boost the ac of the cloth wearing classes is to make a few things stack by changing the nature of some of them. If, for example, we look at the +X on FP as being inherent to FP due to it's being made of metal, then obviously cloth can't possibly have that +X for the same reason. Thus, if the cloth "armor" was just a bit different so that the AC bonus of my Jidz (or any other AC Bracers) would stack, that could help...

Of course, I'm not even going to pretend that I understand this stuff as well as some of you, as I just don't get quite as into the numbers and the math as some. That said, I could easily be wrong about the apparent simplicity of this suggestion, and even if not, it could be that it wouldn't really help in the grand scheme... So, feel free to ignore.

Going back to my coffee now :)

Stillwaters
06-09-2012, 11:08 PM
/snip brilliant post

+1

I would +50 you if I could, this is EXACTLY what needs to happen and what I was trying to show in the closed threads.

Unfortunately it still breaks tiny splash and low splash cloth users....
though those builds still retain evasion and monk feats, if wanting defenses they have OPTIONS to jump into armor and lose cloth, true monks dont have that option.

Stillwaters
06-09-2012, 11:24 PM
Are you sure about this? Some of the cloth has a + value to it now, and when I switched out some regular outfit for a +3 outfit the other day, my AC went up by 3 (don't remember the % change and still haven't totally gotten my head around that).

I could easily be wrong, but it seems to me that the easiest way to boost the ac of the cloth wearing classes is to make a few things stack by changing the nature of some of them. If, for example, we look at the +X on FP as being inherent to FP due to it's being made of metal, then obviously cloth can't possibly have that +X for the same reason. Thus, if the cloth "armor" was just a bit different so that the AC bonus of my Jidz (or any other AC Bracers) would stack, that could help...

Of course, I'm not even going to pretend that I understand this stuff as well as some of you, as I just don't get quite as into the numbers and the math as some. That said, I could easily be wrong about the apparent simplicity of this suggestion, and even if not, it could be that it wouldn't really help in the grand scheme... So, feel free to ignore.

Going back to my coffee now :)

Armor at lvl 25 gives +7from enhancement
and MAX 25 or 27AC (if you can fill the dex portion),

Shields add +7 from enhancement and 9AC more (3 more if you went tower shield and didnt mind losing MDB)
32 or 34(armor) + 16(heavy shield)
= 32 to 53AC (add more potentially from DEX + mobility or action point)

Cloth/bracers gives MAX 8 enhancement to AC,
monk levels (centered bonuses) give MAX 15 bonus to AC, most of that unavailable to a splash
(more from DEX and WIS) can assume 30s in each for +20AC maximum +30AC
20 to 30(stat) + 0 to 15(centered) +8(cloth/bracer)
= 28 to 53AC (add more potentially from stat boost pots etc)

The problem isn't the AC from cloth... it's the MITIGATION see HERE (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4512636&postcount=113) for why
Its the PRR is nonexistent, and the no MDB dodgecap is meaningless
Without these factors players will be ripped apart in lvl 20+ content.

Eme
06-10-2012, 01:32 AM
the devs only seem to be talking about earth stance,, and using this as a base for monks.

This is so wrong on so many levels, whichever stance the player uses should be bonuses on top of a base unstanced monk.

They are rushing all this out and are going to screw this up so badly,,



screw up the only class i want to play, or force me into a particular stance turbine and youve lost me as a player.

redspecter23
06-10-2012, 02:09 AM
My thoughts are this:

Each stance should offer both an offensive and defensive benefit.

Earth stance is the only one that offers any real defensive and offensive punch on Lamania currently. I'd give a substantial buff to water's dodge % and possibly tack on some concealment bonuses to air and/or fire in the neighborhood of 40%+ for top tiers to place it near permadisplacement levels.

Adding wisdom bonus to dodge would probably then put you right where you need to be defensively. I hear people talking about mid 30ish wisdom at end game. I cry bs on that. My monk should be nearing 60 wisdom at end game. That's 25% dodge right there. Combined with items and enhancements, that gets a wisdom based monk up to 50%+ dodge which is where I think a well built monk should be at end game. Sure you can build a monk strength based or not put effort into raising wisdom, but if you want to reap the rewards of a class with wisdom as a prime attribute, you should expect to have to invest heavily in it. Min/max str/con with dumped wisdom monks could be a thing of the past.

Drakos
06-10-2012, 02:31 AM
My thoughts are this:

Each stance should offer both an offensive and defensive benefit.

Earth stance is the only one that offers any real defensive and offensive punch on Lamania currently. I'd give a substantial buff to water's dodge % and possibly tack on some concealment bonuses to air and/or fire in the neighborhood of 40%+ for top tiers to place it near permadisplacement levels.

Adding wisdom bonus to dodge would probably then put you right where you need to be defensively. I hear people talking about mid 30ish wisdom at end game. I cry bs on that. My monk should be nearing 60 wisdom at end game. That's 25% dodge right there. Combined with items and enhancements, that gets a wisdom based monk up to 50%+ dodge which is where I think a well built monk should be at end game. Sure you can build a monk strength based or not put effort into raising wisdom, but if you want to reap the rewards of a class with wisdom as a prime attribute, you should expect to have to invest heavily in it. Min/max str/con with dumped wisdom monks could be a thing of the past.
I'd be interested on how you plan to get to near to 60 Wisdom.

Stillwaters
06-10-2012, 02:37 AM
Min/max str/con with dumped wisdom monks could be a thing of the past.

I thought they were already?
I'd love to compare notes with you tho on getting 60 wisdom (is that a lot of expensive pots etc?)
The best(balanced) idea thrown around is to tie the 20% or so needed dodge in with either monk levels or enhancement/stances.

They could always split the difference and alternate giving 1 dodge/2 monk lvls and 1 prr/2 monk lvls

Another option is to put it on bracers and robes but make the dodge% part affect monk only

That way it tiers with level (preferably MONK lvl)

I like your ideas on stances having defense and offense each though
I (especially recently) consider
Earth the "shield" stance (as if i was wearing one)....
Fire is the ki regen stance
Water is for saves/DCs (doesn't do a fantastic job)
Air is for speed/dps

Malky
06-10-2012, 02:46 AM
I'd be interested on how you plan to get to near to 60 Wisdom.

Think 52 was the max sustainable 'til now. Between 1 more levelup, +8 item instead of +7, +3 insight instead of +2, and the destiny/twists that can add a lot of it...

krogyy
06-10-2012, 03:43 AM
well, they are offering ways other than gear to improve monk's defenses. see



Walking with waves (min level 20) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive) Gain cold resistance 4 and +2 to AC. If you have monk levels and are in ocean stance, +[1/2/3]% chance to dodge enemy attackes



Standing with stone (min level 20) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive) Acid resistance 4, +5 max HP. If you have monk levels and are in earth stance, +[5/10/15] PRR

besides, wasn't the PRR granted by heavy armor equal to your BAB? that tops at 20, exactly as earth stance PRR value. with standing with stone you can even have PRR than is similar to full plate + tower shield.

the only ones that will have clearly better PRR is the defenders. so i wouldn't call monks glass cannons at all.

LiquidShadow
06-10-2012, 03:57 AM
i dunno what are u complaining about... u might get lower PRR but thats how its supposed to be right there has to be some benefit for using heavy armor and loosing IMPROVED evasion? u still get ****load AC from enhancements/epic destiny, WIS mod, and centered (it was changed IIRC) while other classes doesnt get this and have to use shield instead of twf or thf style - u also get full str dmg bonus to both hands and ur base dmg gets increased with ur lvl... yet u want even more...

so in the end i think monks are still in better situation than most melees who are not tanks - and yes i dont understand why monk should be a viable tank - maybe some support tank but not the main one

EDIT: before someone starts attacking me. i also have a lvl20 monk aswell as melee character in heavy armor without evasion

LiquidShadow
06-10-2012, 04:11 AM
My thoughts are this:

Each stance should offer both an offensive and defensive benefit.

Earth stance is the only one that offers any real defensive and offensive punch on Lamania currently. I'd give a substantial buff to water's dodge % and possibly tack on some concealment bonuses to air and/or fire in the neighborhood of 40%+ for top tiers to place it near permadisplacement levels.

Adding wisdom bonus to dodge would probably then put you right where you need to be defensively. I hear people talking about mid 30ish wisdom at end game. I cry bs on that. My monk should be nearing 60 wisdom at end game. That's 25% dodge right there. Combined with items and enhancements, that gets a wisdom based monk up to 50%+ dodge which is where I think a well built monk should be at end game. Sure you can build a monk strength based or not put effort into raising wisdom, but if you want to reap the rewards of a class with wisdom as a prime attribute, you should expect to have to invest heavily in it. Min/max str/con with dumped wisdom monks could be a thing of the past.

oh yes and then 45% of server population will become monks while the other 45% will stay on their wf sorcs. 10% for all those fanatics that doesnt need to be uber

as for the stances... each of them is supposed to have some advantage and disadvantage not just benefits... u get +4 con and -2 dex in earth stance not +4 con and +2 something
same with power attack u get extra dmg at the cost of "to hit" bonus
i totally dont understand why u get extra crit multiplier in earth stance because lets face it the whole defense bonuses are enough to make it worth using
water stance could use a buff on the other hand... +1 passive ki generation is weaksauce now and dodge might be the way since its defensive stance

Urist
06-10-2012, 05:44 AM
Feat: Turn aside blow
When in this stance, your character concentrates on parrying or deflecting enemy blows, so that they hit with less force.
* Stance; converts up to x points of dodge bonus (capped by armour) to f(x) points of PRR.
* Monks (and fighters?) get enhancements to boost the maximum
* Can be selected as a monk or fighter bonus feat

LiquidShadow
06-10-2012, 05:50 AM
Feat: Turn aside blow
When in this stance, your character concentrates on parrying or deflecting enemy blows, so that they hit with less force.
* Stance; converts up to x points of dodge bonus (capped by armour) to f(x) points of PRR.
* Monks (and fighters?) get enhancements to boost the maximum
* Can be selected as a monk or fighter bonus feat

thats awesome idea because paladins will get behind again... dont forget to add 3x cooldown on spells when active

Don1966
06-10-2012, 06:22 AM
Think 52 was the max sustainable 'til now. Between 1 more levelup, +8 item instead of +7, +3 insight instead of +2, and the destiny/twists that can add a lot of it...

actually, +8 item, +1 exceptional (these didn't get changed to insight, +2 exceptional did get changed to insight) +3 insight, +6 from destiny, +4 from new bard song.
so,
18 base
6 level ups
3 enhancement
8 item
1 exceptional
3 insight
6 destiny
4 ocean stance
2 capstone
2 yugo pot
4 bard song
1 epic feat
4 tome
2 ship buff
2 alchemical handwraps
total of 66
am i missing anything here?

Stillwaters
06-10-2012, 06:43 AM
am i missing anything here?

missing that exceptional +1 was changed to competence +1 :p

missing profane (+1 from litany of the dead)
missing completionist (+2 if you could fit it)
missing store pot (+2)
missing deneith pots (+1 more alchemical they go up to +3 i believe)
missing (+3 more profane from abashai cookie destroyer buff)


so 61 sustainable (+25 modifier) and 75 temp Wisdom (+32 modifier) :cool:

I would hate to see Shade's MAX STR after this update

EDIT: oh, and virtual +1, i have given out too much rep in last 24 hours :(

redspecter23
06-10-2012, 07:08 AM
actually, +8 item, +1 exceptional (these didn't get changed to insight, +2 exceptional did get changed to insight) +3 insight, +6 from destiny, +4 from new bard song.
so,
18 base
6 level ups
3 enhancement
8 item
1 exceptional
3 insight
6 destiny
4 ocean stance
2 capstone
2 yugo pot
4 bard song
1 epic feat
4 tome
2 ship buff
2 alchemical handwraps
total of 66
am i missing anything here?

Thanks for doing the math don. That's pretty much what I was thinking when I said 60ish. I wasn't really counting the bard song as that seems a bit situational and I can't see monks starting at 18 (more likely 16, possibly 17), but all the other stuff is theoretically reasonable depending on where one might get +3 insight and potential slotting issues.

Ap0k
06-10-2012, 07:19 AM
it may have been suggested at some place, but the problem (next to PRR) seems to be that Fighters and Paladins gain AC with each level (+1 per level iirc) while monks dont. Seeing that monks are the masters of evading blows they should gain +1% dodge per level (or maybe per 2 levels). Imo that would make some logical sense (yeah logic in a fantasy setting :P )

Stillwaters
06-10-2012, 07:23 AM
it may have been suggested at some place, but the problem (next to PRR) seems to be that Fighters and Paladins gain AC with each level (+1 per level iirc) while monks dont. Seeing that monks are the masters of evading blows they should gain +1% dodge per level (or maybe per 2 levels). Imo that would make some logical sense (yeah logic in a fantasy setting :P )

You are thinking of "combat training" which got removed from closed beta1 to closed beta2.. and was pretty much the ONLY time devs listened to combat change suggestions in the entirety of time since beta opened. Though reading the reasoning it could have been they couldnt code it correctly, not that they listened to us...
something along the lines of "wasnt working as we intended it to."

Ap0k
06-10-2012, 07:28 AM
You are thinking of "combat training" which got removed from closed beta1 to closed beta2.. and was pretty much the ONLY time devs listened to combat change suggestions in the entirety of time since beta opened. Though reading the reasoning it could have been they couldnt code it correctly, not that they listened to us...
something along the lines of "wasnt working as we intended it to."

ok...admittedly im a bit overwhelmed by the amount of information about changes and whats been added and removed again, so I appologize. But I still kinda like the idea of adding some amount of dodge per monk level :)

I see MrWindUpBird has suggested this as well in this thread. I agree with his assessment.

Stillwaters
06-10-2012, 07:59 AM
ok...admittedly im a bit overwhelmed by the amount of information about changes and whats been added and removed again, so I appologize. But I still kinda like the idea of adding some amount of dodge per monk level :)

I see MrWindUpBird has suggested this as well in this thread. I agree with his assessment.

Oh i agree with you - i said similar thing myself over 5 hours ago in this thread :)

+1 dodge/2levels and +1 PRR/2levels <-- you could alternate them on odd and even levels for a steady rise.

Dwarfo
06-10-2012, 09:49 AM
I saw a named robe with +9 AC on it..its name evades me now but i think its on the named items thread.

Aalric
06-10-2012, 12:09 PM
frozen tunic has 8 ac & now there are robes with 9 ac.

I just dont think that "1" ac is going to make the difference when it comes to monks.

BTW, there have been some excellent suggestions in the other thread about how to help monks not be glass cannons - i just wish that the developers would pay some attention to it, :(

Osma77
06-10-2012, 12:18 PM
My opinion:
First - a lot of robes are now granting armor class as well. Saw some randomly created robes that granted +7 armor in addition to pre/suffix. This probably needs to be higher, but at least it lets you put a diffrent bracers on, such as challange air bracers (for dodge).

Second: One easy fix to monks (although i dont know how effective it would be, just thought of it), is to add +1prr and +1 dodge/2 levels. That would give a monk at 20 a total of +20 ac (i think they still get this), +20 prr (more then a leather armor druid with heavy shield), and 10% dodge (more then rogue with improved uncanny dodge, but without the 60% bonus.) This would greatly enhance a monks survivability letting them dodge 1/5 of all incoming damage, resist about 10-15% of what gets through no matter what the stance (and get them fairly high in earth stance) and still grant them easily 40 ac with gear.

Post Script: Please remember that you need MUCH less ac then you used to need. The armor pop-up on the char screen said that with an armor class of 45, my druid had a 30% chance to be missed by level 22 content.

Ape_Man
06-10-2012, 02:24 PM
My opinion:
First - a lot of robes are now granting armor class as well. Saw some randomly created robes that granted +7 armor in addition to pre/suffix. This probably needs to be higher, but at least it lets you put a diffrent bracers on, such as challange air bracers (for dodge).

Second: One easy fix to monks (although i dont know how effective it would be, just thought of it), is to add +1prr and +1 dodge/2 levels. That would give a monk at 20 a total of +20 ac (i think they still get this), +20 prr (more then a leather armor druid with heavy shield), and 10% dodge (more then rogue with improved uncanny dodge, but without the 60% bonus.) This would greatly enhance a monks survivability letting them dodge 1/5 of all incoming damage, resist about 10-15% of what gets through no matter what the stance (and get them fairly high in earth stance) and still grant them easily 40 ac with gear.

Post Script: Please remember that you need MUCH less ac then you used to need. The armor pop-up on the char screen said that with an armor class of 45, my druid had a 30% chance to be missed by level 22 content.


And leave monk-splashes screwed?

Tie the additional dodge to people's stats and nobody gets screwed.

RS-Makk
06-10-2012, 03:47 PM
And leave monk-splashes screwed?

Tie the additional dodge to people's stats and nobody gets screwed.

I agree. There has to be a way to not meet the objectives while still keeping splash build options on the table. I wouldn't be as concerned if it wasn't for the fact all my armors are outfits (bunch of dt outfits that I spent a loooong time grinding) that are now useless for me. (unless of course they come up with a way to magically change my dt outfits to other armor levels - that would work for me also)

FranOhmsford
06-10-2012, 04:10 PM
My responses in COLOR



Quote:
Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
Clerics aren't getting Armour Bonuses/PRR that they should be getting as Hvy Armour Wearers. <-same bonuses under divine power though

They're losing Implosion/Destruction etc. as viable spells.<- bull! cooldown on implosion takes care of most of the penalty from the MAX 5 mobs you will kill from it, destruction and slay living are getting a small nerf if you constantly spammed them

They're losing Damage on Blade Barrier. <- Blade barrier damage is for artificers, and its much easier to find items that boost it now didnt you get the memo?

They're losing Healing power too BUT this is minor. < spell changes have taken most of the GEAR benefits down and raised the value of enhancements and metas, Heal and MASS heal take a hit the other cures and bursts do better

AC/PRR is the big one however - Radiant Servant basically requires that you be standing in the middle of the ruck and the AC changes are going to make AC a requirement so Clerics are going to take FAR FAR more damage. <-- more than they do on live, past about lvl 11??

Clonks will be broken completely by the looks of things. <- totally agree here cloth builds are screwed over HARD

Monks/PMs/Tanks etc. may have it bad BUT:

Clerics are getting the biggest kicking!
My responses in COLOR

1. Combat Training has been removed in it's entirety I see - So rather than giving Clerics the CT they should have had the Devs chose to scrap the whole idea?

2. Implosion has basically gone from a 1 minute cooldown to a 75 second cooldown {Was one minute really not long enough?} - Also Implosion works on ticks - We still haven't heard from a dev whether the Haunting will affect subsequent ticks of the same spell or not.
Destuction and Slay Living have both been nerfed with longer cooldowns.

3. Blade Barrier is now an Arti only spell eh? News to me!

4. Heal and Mass Heal take a hit - And you think this is good?

5. AC is being changed to make it viable - i.e. those without AC are going to take more damage {this is a fact} - If Clerics are unable to get a viable AC/PR they will not be able to stand in the middle of the ruck with Aura and Burst and melee anymore.
This is a huge nerf!

In another thread someone accused me of being a one trick pony - That person clearly does not know me as nothing could be further from the truth.
I build my characters to be capable at all aspects of their class {a throwback to PnP I know} and therefore am most certainly not uber at any one part of that class.
I am not the Uber DC caster - I am not charging into Melee and doing 500pt Crits - I have never seen a 2000pt Heal {or whatever the current max is} or anything close to that.

In my view Clerics need a boost NOT this massive nerf to every part of their class!
It's the Player who takes his/her FS into E-CoF Solo and laughs at it NOT the class!

Sarnind
06-10-2012, 04:12 PM
Glass cannon? The new appropriate name is : monk the new glass without cannon

Don1966
06-10-2012, 04:42 PM
actually, +8 item, +1 exceptional (these didn't get changed to insight, +2 exceptional did get changed to insight) +3 insight, +6 from destiny, +4 from new bard song.
so,
18 base
6 level ups
3 enhancement
8 item
1 exceptional
3 insight
6 destiny
4 ocean stance
2 capstone
2 yugo pot
4 bard song
1 epic feat
4 tome
2 ship buff
2 alchemical handwraps
total of 66
am i missing anything here?


missing that exceptional +1 was changed to competence +1 :p

missing profane (+1 from litany of the dead)
missing completionist (+2 if you could fit it)
missing store pot (+2)
missing deneith pots (+1 more alchemical they go up to +3 i believe)
missing (+3 more profane from abashai cookie destroyer buff)


so 61 sustainable (+25 modifier) and 75 temp Wisdom (+32 modifier) :cool:

I would hate to see Shade's MAX STR after this update

EDIT: oh, and virtual +1, i have given out too much rep in last 24 hours :(

we both missed +1 from human enhancement. doh!!

CarpeNoctu
06-10-2012, 11:42 PM
Armor at lvl 25 gives +7from enhancement
and MAX 25 or 27AC (if you can fill the dex portion),

Shields add +7 from enhancement and 9AC more (3 more if you went tower shield and didnt mind losing MDB)
32 or 34(armor) + 16(heavy shield)
= 32 to 53AC (add more potentially from DEX + mobility or action point)

Cloth/bracers gives MAX 8 enhancement to AC,
monk levels (centered bonuses) give MAX 15 bonus to AC, most of that unavailable to a splash
(more from DEX and WIS) can assume 30s in each for +20AC maximum +30AC
20 to 30(stat) + 0 to 15(centered) +8(cloth/bracer)
= 28 to 53AC (add more potentially from stat boost pots etc)

The problem isn't the AC from cloth... it's the MITIGATION see HERE (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4512636&postcount=113) for why
Its the PRR is nonexistent, and the no MDB dodgecap is meaningless
Without these factors players will be ripped apart in lvl 20+ content.

Thanx for the explanation and the link... It was helpful and informative... But...

I'm still not really getting the problem. See, I almost exclusively solo. Generally speaking, I only group with friends who request my help or if I need a raid run and there are some friends going anyway... My primary alt is a capped Drow Dark Monk with next to no ac. When I copied her to Lamannia, that low ac translated in the new system to nearly no ac. She had, iirc, about a 34% miss chance or something similar. Still, I grabbed a hire and ran the Kings Forest, a couple of the lvl 19 quests and farmed one of the lvl 21 quests 5 or 6 times... I only died once in all of that, and it was only because I ran into three Astral Panthers in the Forest that they proved too much, though I didn't have too much of a problem with one or two. On Live, with this same Monk, I've been running the Devil Battlefield (mostly solo) since lvl 15. Now, she's not good enough to solo all of the rares, but she has taken a few of them alone.

As I say this, bear in mind that I'm speaking from a very limited point of view since I really do not understand this whole system as well as many of you do, nor have I ever found it interesting enough to wade through all the numbers. I'm not pointing any fingers or making any statements of judgement or "fact" but rather explaining how things look for me, from my limited perspective of limited understanding (in other words, I have an abundance of ignorance).

Before now, if we wanted a monk to have any hope of achieving any meaningful ac, we had no choice but to roll a Wis based Ocean stance monk. I've known only one monk that has done such a thing (Halfling, Wis and Dex based, Massive equipment farmed, could hit ac right around 90 self buffed and could solo farm for Icy which I've never been able to do). This fact did not stop us from rolling Warforged, Drow, Human, Half Elf, Half Orc etc. with next to no Wisdom, and feeding mostly Dex, Str or Con. Now, we're told about this PRR thing and told that we have to be in Mountain Stance if we want the PRR thing going for us.

The one and only potential problem I see is that we can't seem to have the PRR (which we never had before, though I do realize the changes are important to this) and the AC bonus from Wis at the same time. Aside from that... My monk is doing just fine and it APPEARS that the complaint is simply all about us not getting what we never had before...

So, please, feel free to point out my error... I'd really like to understand this. Just keep in mind that simple and direct are best for me, if possible :)

CarpeNoctu
06-10-2012, 11:54 PM
My thoughts are this:

Each stance should offer both an offensive and defensive benefit.

Earth stance is the only one that offers any real defensive and offensive punch on Lamania currently. I'd give a substantial buff to water's dodge % and possibly tack on some concealment bonuses to air and/or fire in the neighborhood of 40%+ for top tiers to place it near permadisplacement levels.

Adding wisdom bonus to dodge would probably then put you right where you need to be defensively. I hear people talking about mid 30ish wisdom at end game. I cry bs on that. My monk should be nearing 60 wisdom at end game. That's 25% dodge right there. Combined with items and enhancements, that gets a wisdom based monk up to 50%+ dodge which is where I think a well built monk should be at end game. Sure you can build a monk strength based or not put effort into raising wisdom, but if you want to reap the rewards of a class with wisdom as a prime attribute, you should expect to have to invest heavily in it. Min/max str/con with dumped wisdom monks could be a thing of the past.

I disagree with this... To my mind, the stances, paths etc are all about sacrifice. We sacrifice attack for defense, we sacrifice defense for damage etc. etc. If we can choose 'this' stance or 'that' stance and have it all, what would be the point in playing a monk? The cool animation?

Another Monk I've played around with on Lama is my zero Wis Str/Con, Mountain Stance Warforged Monk/Fighter and I just rolled a Horc, Str build (again, next to no Wis) and I'm hoping the devs will pop in with some xp at some point so I can see how they both do in end game content, but playing around in the normal at lvl quests (the Horc, as I said, is new and the Warforged is lvl 11 or 12 atm) they've been doing great... Of course, I could roll a zero cha sorc or a zero str barb and do great in the harbor, so... lol

redspecter23
06-11-2012, 12:43 AM
I disagree with this... To my mind, the stances, paths etc are all about sacrifice. We sacrifice attack for defense, we sacrifice defense for damage etc. etc. If we can choose 'this' stance or 'that' stance and have it all, what would be the point in playing a monk? The cool animation?

Another Monk I've played around with on Lama is my zero Wis Str/Con, Mountain Stance Warforged Monk/Fighter and I just rolled a Horc, Str build (again, next to no Wis) and I'm hoping the devs will pop in with some xp at some point so I can see how they both do in end game content, but playing around in the normal at lvl quests (the Horc, as I said, is new and the Warforged is lvl 11 or 12 atm) they've been doing great... Of course, I could roll a zero cha sorc or a zero str barb and do great in the harbor, so... lol

I actually agree with you. With any given stance you should give up something. I suppose it comes down to how you look at it. If I'm in fire stance and switch to air stance, I have given up my faster ki generation in favor of more offense. If I swap to water, I then give up my attack speed for more ac and better tactics.

The problem I have is that earth is just far and away the best stance as it adds both meaningful offense and defense to a build. I find it a very powerful stance on lama to the exclusion of the other stances. The option is there to buff the other stances so they all offer differing forms of offense/defense or provide a penalty to earth stance possibly in the form of reduced dodge while it's active. This would be what you'd have to give up for some form of DR on a cloth wearing toon.

I guess my argument to counter your first point is that currently earth stance is a stance without sacrifice so others need a buff or it needs a nerf in order for them all to be more balanced. Ki gen from fire isn't overly necessary anymore. The crit multiplier matches the double strike from air and earth even gives an ac bonus to bring it close to what water adds defensively.

CarpeNoctu
06-11-2012, 01:55 AM
I actually agree with you. With any given stance you should give up something. I suppose it comes down to how you look at it. If I'm in fire stance and switch to air stance, I have given up my faster ki generation in favor of more offense. If I swap to water, I then give up my attack speed for more ac and better tactics.

The problem I have is that earth is just far and away the best stance as it adds both meaningful offense and defense to a build. I find it a very powerful stance on lama to the exclusion of the other stances. The option is there to buff the other stances so they all offer differing forms of offense/defense or provide a penalty to earth stance possibly in the form of reduced dodge while it's active. This would be what you'd have to give up for some form of DR on a cloth wearing toon.

I guess my argument to counter your first point is that currently earth stance is a stance without sacrifice so others need a buff or it needs a nerf in order for them all to be more balanced. Ki gen from fire isn't overly necessary anymore. The crit multiplier matches the double strike from air and earth even gives an ac bonus to bring it close to what water adds defensively.

Ok... I get what you're saying, now. Thanx for the clarification. On that note, I must agree. The biggest reason I keep building dex monks is that all other stances feel like they're in slow motion to me, so it's not necessarily about the strength of the build, but about my perception... It's kind of like the sheer agony of logging from my lvl 20 Monk after running around the city for a while doing some trading and jumping on the lvl 3 Fighter I rolled just to help a friend lvl up a bit... Moving from a capped Monk with 30% Striding to the lvl 3 with no striding is just horrible lol.

Given that the only obvious downside of the Mountain stance Monk is how slow it is, it would be nice if we could keep the sacrifice aspect while giving a minor boost to the others, even if they don't exactly make it to equality. Just enough to keep the other stances interesting enough for others to play.

I say 'others' because I'll just keep rolling them the way I like and, since I solo so much, not really caring if they're gimps lol

Osma77
06-11-2012, 02:23 AM
And leave monk-splashes screwed?

Tie the additional dodge to people's stats and nobody gets screwed.

In a way, yes, that is exactly what i mean, monk splashes get screwed. From what i understood of dev posts, a HUGE part of the reason that they have had to tweak and work with all this stuff, and the reason that pure monks in general have ended up so badly nerfed this pass, is because the monk splashes were making things too badly overbalanced. As a buddy of mine says, 'pajama wearing fighters SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO tank as well as someone in the heaviest of armors with the largest of shields.'

Splashing a monk in order to gain tons of armor (aka, exploiter builds) were causing enough trouble that they seemed to want to find a way to make pure monks still viable, without making splashes so OP that few people would ever worry about capstones because splashing monk was far more powerful.

Using my idea would provide pure monks (or nearly pure monks) with signifigant bonuses that became truelly noticeable at high levels, while providing a slight, even non-existant bonus to low levels just throwing it in there for ac, evasion, unarmed attacks, stances, saves, feats, ect.

Osma77
06-11-2012, 02:44 AM
1. Combat Training has been removed in it's entirety I see - So rather than giving Clerics the CT they should have had the Devs chose to scrap the whole idea?


Ignoring the rest of your post as i am not qualified to comment on clerics this pass.

To this statment, i believe, based on my high level chars on beta, that they removed combat training in general because it ended up not being needed for anyone.

My reasoning: Saying nothing of high ac toons (i dont have one) or really really low ac toons (wiz/sorc with 12 ac), armor class in the middle of the pack is far more effective then it used to be. My middle of the road fighter on live never worried about armor because he was a dps fighter that was GOING to get hit, even on heroic content. As such, he had around a 40 armor class. At level 18, he got hit, on normal, 95% of the time.

My druid, on beta obviously, also had a 40-45 armor class (randomly generated and new leather armors, plus randomly generated heavy shields). Yet according to the pop-up, at level content (level 23) only were supposed to hit me 70% of the time (far better then 95).

Combat training would indeed have given fighters a huge boost to their armorclass. However, when 45 ac is enough to mitigate some damage, and 180 is NOT enough to mitigate all of the damage, it becomes a situation where ac is good, but too much ac is no longer nessicary. After a point it becomes overkill and a penalty to your dps. Combat training would have benifited fighters by getting them to that point earlier, but many fighters would not have really noticed a huge % diffrence in damage mitigation.

Now clerics were not gaining any at all. Assuming a cleric had built themselves up to an ac of 80, that would have given them what, 160? (cant remember). So they would have gone from what, 60% miss rate to 70% miss rate? Those numbers are of course going to be inaccurate, i dont have any high ac toons to check, but the point remains that even getting huge ac numbers, you are still GOING to get hit at some point. The only thing that will really help that is prr (which clerics are getting) and dodge (which clerics with high ac probably aready have in thier gear). There was SIGNIFIGANT benifit to giving them combat training, and when people complained about it, the devs probably desided 'truth, no one really needs it, so just take it from everyone and give some classes the ability to get a %' (like stalwart or bears).

In the end, clerics are a spellcasting class. Yes, they can wear heavy armor and slug it out like a fighter with the bab of a rogue, casting spells while beating them down. But a hefty majority are playing them as casters and/or healers. For the melee clerics, you are still going to get a signifigant amount of damage mitigation from the fact that you gain prr from heavy armors, and the fact that maxing out your armor is not longer helpful.

Thordarr
06-11-2012, 03:06 AM
As discussed above, armours now scale with level to give higher AC values as you go up whereas robes remain the same.

Why not give robes a dodge bonus and allow that to scale with level - with higher level robes being better at dodging in?

I know dodge in theory is independent of level in terms of its effect, but the impact (pun intended!) of being hit in melee goes up with level so this may be a compensating factor?

thoughts?

FranOhmsford
06-11-2012, 03:58 AM
Ignoring the rest of your post as i am not qualified to comment on clerics this pass.

To this statment, i believe, based on my high level chars on beta, that they removed combat training in general because it ended up not being needed for anyone.

My reasoning: Saying nothing of high ac toons (i dont have one) or really really low ac toons (wiz/sorc with 12 ac), armor class in the middle of the pack is far more effective then it used to be. My middle of the road fighter on live never worried about armor because he was a dps fighter that was GOING to get hit, even on heroic content. As such, he had around a 40 armor class. At level 18, he got hit, on normal, 95% of the time.

My druid, on beta obviously, also had a 40-45 armor class (randomly generated and new leather armors, plus randomly generated heavy shields). Yet according to the pop-up, at level content (level 23) only were supposed to hit me 70% of the time (far better then 95).

Combat training would indeed have given fighters a huge boost to their armorclass. However, when 45 ac is enough to mitigate some damage, and 180 is NOT enough to mitigate all of the damage, it becomes a situation where ac is good, but too much ac is no longer nessicary. After a point it becomes overkill and a penalty to your dps. Combat training would have benifited fighters by getting them to that point earlier, but many fighters would not have really noticed a huge % diffrence in damage mitigation.

Now clerics were not gaining any at all. Assuming a cleric had built themselves up to an ac of 80, that would have given them what, 160? (cant remember). So they would have gone from what, 60% miss rate to 70% miss rate? Those numbers are of course going to be inaccurate, i dont have any high ac toons to check, but the point remains that even getting huge ac numbers, you are still GOING to get hit at some point. The only thing that will really help that is prr (which clerics are getting) and dodge (which clerics with high ac probably aready have in thier gear). There was SIGNIFIGANT benifit to giving them combat training, and when people complained about it, the devs probably desided 'truth, no one really needs it, so just take it from everyone and give some classes the ability to get a %' (like stalwart or bears).

In the end, clerics are a spellcasting class. Yes, they can wear heavy armor and slug it out like a fighter with the bab of a rogue, casting spells while beating them down. But a hefty majority are playing them as casters and/or healers. For the melee clerics, you are still going to get a signifigant amount of damage mitigation from the fact that you gain prr from heavy armors, and the fact that maxing out your armor is not longer helpful.

By talking about super high AC toons You've gone and completely missed the point.

Battle Clerics {NOT Clonks} don't get 80 AC {is this even possible?}.

40 AC at Lvl 18 on a DPS fighter build also isn't low - There are plenty of DPS fighters out there with ACs in the 20s if that.

Now IF I got my Cleric to an AC of {let's say} 45-50 at cap {realistic} then atm I'd expect to get hit 95% of the time BUT we simply don't take much damage at the moment when we do get hit thanks to other factors.

Now with this update the Devs are making AC actually worth something and My Cleric is still going to get hit just as often because there is no way to get a Cleric's AC to anything like the levels of a Fighter's. {This is where I feel they've gone wrong - If Armour is going to matter then Clerics should be getting a boost {They're NOT}.
As such I'm expecting to be taking a lot more damage than currently.

BTW Divine Power is a 4th Lvl Cleric Spell that any Battle Cleric over Lvl 10 will be running pretty much permanently so that BAB is wrong.

If Maxing out Armour is no longer helpful then there's something seriously wrong - I assume however that you meant Armour Class NOT Armour.
A Cleric gets Hvy Armour just like a Fighter - He/She doesn't get Stalwart Bonuses of course AND unless Monk Splashed is highly unlikely to have a high Dex BUT A Cleric should definitely be able to get equal AC to a Kensai OR HotD/KotC Paladin.

Stillwaters
06-11-2012, 04:29 AM
My monk is doing just fine and it APPEARS that the complaint is simply all about us not getting what we never had before...

So, please, feel free to point out my error... I'd really like to understand this. Just keep in mind that simple and direct are best for me, if possible :)

Firstly good to hear from an experienced player running the content,

As for getting things we never had before.. Armor specs (yes even Heavy armor with tower shields) are getting %dodge they never had before,
Armor specs are getting PRR from armor that they never had before.

The reason for this is (paraphrasing devs words).. "AC alone will not be enough mitigation considering the changes to AC"

Im not asking to be "top of the heap"
But as is, the armor specs can utilize most of the dodge AND get PRR
Cloth users get no PRR and only get close to same mitigation at much higher levels
I consider earth stance a (shield up) style similar to s&b, less damage more ac and PRR.

For a comparison: (against similar style classes)
A 20 rogue in light armor with TWF, has around the same AC, can take TWdef and have 15 total PRR a monk cant get, has bonus dodge while levelling, boost dodge 20secs/2min, and same evasion monks get.
A 20 TWF ranger in light armor with TWF has around the same AC, can take TWdef and Tempest and have 20 total PRR (iirc) a monk cant get, a ranged option keeping them out of the fray 20secs/2min, and same evasion monks get.

Ape_Man
06-11-2012, 08:46 AM
The reason for this is (paraphrasing devs words)..

. . . is the devs lowered the to-hits and didn't tell us. It's the only thing that explains what I'm seeing on beta, if the same to-hit were there as what is on live I'd be getting torn apart in content where I'm not.

It makes sense, if the to-hits were tweaked so people with tons of stacking dodge bonuses could be hit now that that doesn't work anymore it'd make sense to tweak them downward.

I'd like some dev confirmation on this please, were mob to-hit actually tweaked downward? it sure as heck feels that way when I can zerg Sins of Attrition on hard on a 60 AC melee.

ResEvil6370
06-11-2012, 09:30 AM
Haven't been on beta myself but to me it seems like all you have to do is change the way you play the class for the most part. If the main change that comes from this is that people have to stop playing monks like they're on a tank/barb and more like the class they're supposed to be then i'm all for it. Rarely do you see rogues currently, running ahead of the group into 10 epic mobs....because they're forced to play a more subtle game, and even with that the top rogues will easily compete on kills with the melees, whilst being the leading squish.

So I personally think it'll be less to do with the changes and more with the players behind the keyboard....God forbid they make us use skill as gamers XD

donblas
06-11-2012, 10:35 AM
I graphed monster to-hit based on the AC of my toons and the %miss chance given in the character sheet.

The data fit a straight line of slope approx 2.5. In other words lvl2 monsters have +5 to hit, while lvl20 have +50, if that helps anyone see what's going on.

CarpeNoctu
06-11-2012, 11:09 AM
Firstly good to hear from an experienced player running the content,

As for getting things we never had before.. Armor specs (yes even Heavy armor with tower shields) are getting %dodge they never had before,
Armor specs are getting PRR from armor that they never had before.

The reason for this is (paraphrasing devs words).. "AC alone will not be enough mitigation considering the changes to AC"

Im not asking to be "top of the heap"
But as is, the armor specs can utilize most of the dodge AND get PRR
Cloth users get no PRR and only get close to same mitigation at much higher levels
I consider earth stance a (shield up) style similar to s&b, less damage more ac and PRR.

For a comparison: (against similar style classes)
A 20 rogue in light armor with TWF, has around the same AC, can take TWdef and have 15 total PRR a monk cant get, has bonus dodge while levelling, boost dodge 20secs/2min, and same evasion monks get.
A 20 TWF ranger in light armor with TWF has around the same AC, can take TWdef and Tempest and have 20 total PRR (iirc) a monk cant get, a ranged option keeping them out of the fray 20secs/2min, and same evasion monks get.

Gotcha... Thanx for taking the time to explain, and I'm sorry you had to work so hard to hammer through the thickness of my skull...

In this light, I'm far more inclined to agree with you than disagree. Perhaps PRR for Monks could come from Concentration... It seems to me, a Monks ability to, while centered, ignore pain and damage should account for physical resistance...

Ape_Man
06-11-2012, 11:52 AM
I graphed monster to-hit based on the AC of my toons and the %miss chance given in the character sheet.

The data fit a straight line of slope approx 2.5. In other words lvl2 monsters have +5 to hit, while lvl20 have +50, if that helps anyone see what's going on.

I don't think that's right. for the most part it's mob CRx2. There are exceptions but that's usually it.

On live now the Normal Orthons in Amrath are about a +40, Beardeds are a +50. There's some variation here and there but that's the exception not the rule.

RobbinB
06-11-2012, 12:05 PM
Yes. The Devs have alluded to the fact that monk AC/defenses are still under consideration, but there hasnt been any development on this front.
There are really two frames of reference here: DPS monks vs armored melees, and monk tanking builds vs armored tanks.

The problems:
A. The addition of higher base armor classes relatively disadvantages monks. Consider something like the new Cormyrian red armor posted in the U14 items list: the heavy armor is 28armor/2maxdex vs 9armor for the robes. So, that's a 21pt difference to make up in dex/wis modifiers. That's a lot, but it's not unreasonable, although the number required for parity will be a bit higher than 21 due to mobility/enhancements/etc with max dex bonus on the armor.

B. PRR. This is a big one. Right now, monks are getting screwed on PRR. And it's a bigger deal than you think, even. Nevermind the fact that monks cannot achieve any meaningful PRR without being in earth stance, which is not going to be desirable for non-tank monks, and that the effective monk PRR cap for a toon focussed on it is far far lower than a fighter or paladin tank in heavy armor with a shield. The issue I havent seen discussed is one of both HP and variance. We can calculate the total damage mitigation as an iterative combination of concealment/dodge/AC/PRR whatever else I'm missing. The problem with using this as a measure however is that it ignores the variance of incoming damage, ie the spiky-ness. As anyone who has ever healed a tank knows, spiky damage is bad, and harder/more resource intensive to heal than an equivalent amount of damage occurring at predictable intervals. This spikiness problem is compounded with a lower hp total of the tank. Monks suffer from both problems at once.
Even if they were able to achieve comparable damage mitigation to heavy-armor-wearers via increased dodge relative to lower AC and far lower PRR (for a variety of reasons this seems unlikely to be the case but we'll give the monk the benefit of the doubt for the moment), this results in much spikier incoming damage, due to the mitigation coming from dodge rather than PRR. And monks dont have the feats, toughness enhancements, hit dice or +x%hp from defender stances to accomodate this spikiness with a large HP-pool. Spiky damage + lower hp = not a very good tank. So I am not optimistic about the potential for monk tanks, at least for bosses with high physical damage output. Spell-heavy bosses may be fine. All of this is independent of the fact that the tanking bonuses earth stances offers are strictly inferior to those of the defender stances, incidentally, which furthers the conclusion of the obsolescence of monk tanks.

C. Dodge! Monks can dodge at least, right? The amount of dodge they can get is uncapped, they must be awesome at it! Not so much.
I'd like to see monks become the dodge-y melees, even though this is strictly inferior to equivalent PRR, from a tanking standpoint, as discussed above. But as things stand, monks are exactly as good at dodging as arty, wiz, sorc, cleric, FVS, bard, druid, pally and ranger, and worse than rogues and barbs. Which is to say that only rogue and barb currently have class-dependent bonuses to dodge. Everything else is gear and feats. And Epic Destiny enhancements (3% is found in Grandmaster of Flowers, the rest elsewhere). But a monk can slot lots of dodge and make use of that uncapped max dodge bonus right? Again, not so much. For one, dodge is slottable but doing so precludes using that slot for other purposes (DPS, utility, other survivability). Expecting additional use of slots to balance defensive abilities isn't a very good idea. Further, it's not difficult to push light armors into the low 20s for max dex bonus, which is more dodge than you're ever going to be realistically able to slot anyway. So that supposed advantage is also null.


I'd like to see the problem of monk-squishiness addressed via dodge- this seems most appropriate to the defensive abilities of the class. Monks would still cede the position of excellent tanks for bosses who deal a lot of physical damage, due to the PRR/hp pool issues, but would remain useful melee who can stand some aggro. The issue with implementing it is to tie the dodge bonus to monk levels somehow. The issue with the strength of 2-monk-splash for AC-tanks was that the Wis-to-AC vested immediately with just one level of monk, which does create some balancing issues. A few possibilities I can see: the possibility of wis (and perhaps dex) to dodge has been broached a few times. I think this is a pretty reasonable solution. It would add a large chunk of dodge and alleviate a lot of the pain. The problem then becomes how to distribute it, so that the monk-y goodness actually scales with levels of monk, vs being entirely upfront as it was previously. An obvious answer would be to tie the dodge to stances somehow, although that might have the problem of penalizing players who frequently switch stance situationally but do not have them all at master/grandmaster level. Another option would be to tie it to monk level, such that the max % dodge bonus you get would be min(monk level, wisModifier) or a similar permutation.

Just some thoughts I've had. Also, I realize that there are other classes who are being overlooked/diminished also, such as rangers. Unfortunately, I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to advocate for those classes.

Currently monks get additional AC at periodic monk levels - something to the effect of +5 AC by level 20? Under the current system, this is reasonable. With the changes, +5ish AC is trivial. Maybe take away the level bonuses to AC and instead put them into dodge, 2-4% per threshold?

RobbinB
06-11-2012, 12:12 PM
well, they are offering ways other than gear to improve monk's defenses. see





besides, wasn't the PRR granted by heavy armor equal to your BAB? that tops at 20, exactly as earth stance PRR value. with standing with stone you can even have PRR than is similar to full plate + tower shield.

the only ones that will have clearly better PRR is the defenders. so i wouldn't call monks in Earthstance glass cannons at all.

Where does that leave air/fire/water monks? And 3% dodge for water stance, that's sticking your finger into a dike.

Ape_Man
06-11-2012, 12:13 PM
Problem solved: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377700

fool101
06-11-2012, 12:20 PM
One solution that could possibly improve the monk and clonk situation:

If you have the class ability to use wis for AC, your dodge % also adds PRR.

This seems to fit thematically at least. If you understand your opponents enough that you can avoid their attacks (through AC), you should also be able to soften the blow when you do get hit (PRR).

just a simple thought from a simple mind.

donblas
06-11-2012, 12:22 PM
I don't think that's right. for the most part it's mob CRx2. There are exceptions but that's usually it.

On live now the Normal Orthons in Amrath are about a +40, Beardeds are a +50. There's some variation here and there but that's the exception not the rule.

Tried again on Lamannia with a number of toons, removing and adding equipment to vary AC, then checking the monster to-hit in the AC information (basically what the devs expect a typical monster of the toon's level to be hitting on).

Got a range of 2.43 to 2.53.

Formula used:

2*hitprobability*AC-10.5 = monster hit bonus (then divide by level)

What have I done wrong :(

Masadique
06-11-2012, 12:52 PM
I play tanks. I have a monk tank, my favorite by far, and a fighter tank, insanely effective. There are others as well, but they aren't worth mentioning.

I am not afraid for my monk tank, I will make it work no matter what because that's what you do when you enjoy something, but I would like to see dodge work well for monks. I still think that the wis/dex as dodge, in addition to boosting AC, would fix it very easily.

Another thought was to give 1% dodge every other monk level, like the old AC bonus. 12.5% dodge is sizable, but it doesn't seem that it would be game breaking on the side of the monk.

I am very hesitant to advocate more PRR for monks. It is a stat that really makes the most sense on plate wearing tanks, and is fine being only on earth stance. Maybe bump Earth IV up in PRR - 20 or something, but do not increase the other tiers.

Even though I do love my monk more, I should say that I want my fighter to be more durable. He HAS to use a shield, he doesn't do the same amount of DPS, and he is much less versatile. It makes sense that the guy hiding behind a shield and heavy plates of metal will be taking less damage. I would like my monk to be able to dodge a little bit better though. Seems that cloth would be a tad easier to move in.

In summation, I think the PRR and AC should stay higher on fighters, but dodge needs to be increased for monks. I would like to see a 10%+ increase in monk dodge.

V

PS: Anyone tested Combat Expertise? I'm thinking it will work with non armor AC bonuses, but it would be nice to know ahead of time. 15% is pretty nice.

PPS: 60 Wis seems way too high to be viable. I'm sure you can get it, but, on a monk which needs so many stats, I can't help but feel you're giving up far too much.

Ape_Man
06-11-2012, 12:54 PM
PS: Anyone tested Combat Expertise? I'm thinking it will work with non armor AC bonuses, but it would be nice to know ahead of time. 15% is pretty nice.


Yes, it works for non-armor/shield AC bonuses. That 20 PPR from a twisted Improved:CE looks pretty sweet to.

Rhysem
06-11-2012, 01:02 PM
Yes, it works for non-armor/shield AC bonuses. That 20 PPR from a twisted Improved:CE looks pretty sweet to.

Great just what monks need another stat to be MAD about.

fool101
06-11-2012, 01:13 PM
One solution that could possibly improve the monk and clonk situation:

If you have the class ability to use wis for AC, your dodge % also adds PRR.

This seems to fit thematically at least. If you understand your opponents enough that you can avoid their attacks (through AC), you should also be able to soften the blow when you do get hit (PRR).

just a simple thought from a simple mind.

Just for some clarity,

My view of this suggestion would be to increase each stat equally; essentially giving a monk or monk splash, with 20% dodge, an additional 20 PRR. At least this would do something to mitigate the changes without having to create an additional complex system, as others have proposed.

walkingwolfmike
06-11-2012, 03:19 PM
Yes. The Devs have alluded to the fact that monk AC/defenses are still under consideration, but there hasnt been any development on this front.
There are really two frames of reference here: DPS monks vs armored melees, and monk tanking builds vs armored tanks.

The problems:
A. The addition of higher base armor classes relatively disadvantages monks. Consider something like the new Cormyrian red armor posted in the U14 items list: the heavy armor is 28armor/2maxdex vs 9armor for the robes. So, that's a 21pt difference to make up in dex/wis modifiers. That's a lot, but it's not unreasonable, although the number required for parity will be a bit higher than 21 due to mobility/enhancements/etc with max dex bonus on the armor.

B. PRR. This is a big one. Right now, monks are getting screwed on PRR. And it's a bigger deal than you think, even. Nevermind the fact that monks cannot achieve any meaningful PRR without being in earth stance, which is not going to be desirable for non-tank monks, and that the effective monk PRR cap for a toon focussed on it is far far lower than a fighter or paladin tank in heavy armor with a shield. The issue I havent seen discussed is one of both HP and variance. We can calculate the total damage mitigation as an iterative combination of concealment/dodge/AC/PRR whatever else I'm missing. The problem with using this as a measure however is that it ignores the variance of incoming damage, ie the spiky-ness. As anyone who has ever healed a tank knows, spiky damage is bad, and harder/more resource intensive to heal than an equivalent amount of damage occurring at predictable intervals. This spikiness problem is compounded with a lower hp total of the tank. Monks suffer from both problems at once.
Even if they were able to achieve comparable damage mitigation to heavy-armor-wearers via increased dodge relative to lower AC and far lower PRR (for a variety of reasons this seems unlikely to be the case but we'll give the monk the benefit of the doubt for the moment), this results in much spikier incoming damage, due to the mitigation coming from dodge rather than PRR. And monks dont have the feats, toughness enhancements, hit dice or +x%hp from defender stances to accomodate this spikiness with a large HP-pool. Spiky damage + lower hp = not a very good tank. So I am not optimistic about the potential for monk tanks, at least for bosses with high physical damage output. Spell-heavy bosses may be fine. All of this is independent of the fact that the tanking bonuses earth stances offers are strictly inferior to those of the defender stances, incidentally, which furthers the conclusion of the obsolescence of monk tanks.

C. Dodge! Monks can dodge at least, right? The amount of dodge they can get is uncapped, they must be awesome at it! Not so much.
I'd like to see monks become the dodge-y melees, even though this is strictly inferior to equivalent PRR, from a tanking standpoint, as discussed above. But as things stand, monks are exactly as good at dodging as arty, wiz, sorc, cleric, FVS, bard, druid, pally and ranger, and worse than rogues and barbs. Which is to say that only rogue and barb currently have class-dependent bonuses to dodge. Everything else is gear and feats. And Epic Destiny enhancements (3% is found in Grandmaster of Flowers, the rest elsewhere). But a monk can slot lots of dodge and make use of that uncapped max dodge bonus right? Again, not so much. For one, dodge is slottable but doing so precludes using that slot for other purposes (DPS, utility, other survivability). Expecting additional use of slots to balance defensive abilities isn't a very good idea. Further, it's not difficult to push light armors into the low 20s for max dex bonus, which is more dodge than you're ever going to be realistically able to slot anyway. So that supposed advantage is also null.


I'd like to see the problem of monk-squishiness addressed via dodge- this seems most appropriate to the defensive abilities of the class. Monks would still cede the position of excellent tanks for bosses who deal a lot of physical damage, due to the PRR/hp pool issues, but would remain useful melee who can stand some aggro. The issue with implementing it is to tie the dodge bonus to monk levels somehow. The issue with the strength of 2-monk-splash for AC-tanks was that the Wis-to-AC vested immediately with just one level of monk, which does create some balancing issues. A few possibilities I can see: the possibility of wis (and perhaps dex) to dodge has been broached a few times. I think this is a pretty reasonable solution. It would add a large chunk of dodge and alleviate a lot of the pain. The problem then becomes how to distribute it, so that the monk-y goodness actually scales with levels of monk, vs being entirely upfront as it was previously. An obvious answer would be to tie the dodge to stances somehow, although that might have the problem of penalizing players who frequently switch stance situationally but do not have them all at master/grandmaster level. Another option would be to tie it to monk level, such that the max % dodge bonus you get would be min(monk level, wisModifier) or a similar permutation.

Just some thoughts I've had. Also, I realize that there are other classes who are being overlooked/diminished also, such as rangers. Unfortunately, I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to advocate for those classes.

I am glad I saw this here. Cannot imagine trying to read all of this in guild. Also: DOOM! I am honestly fearful for my lil monk. :(

Masadique
06-11-2012, 03:34 PM
Yes, it works for non-armor/shield AC bonuses. That 20 PPR from a twisted Improved:CE looks pretty sweet to.

Oh nice.

Improved combat expertise (min level: 20 - Feat prereq: Combat expertise) (1 rank - 2 AP): (Active Cooldown: 6secs) The combat expertise grants an additional 20PRR

Just in case anyone was wondering. I really think monks will still be ok as tanks. 2 build points, one feat, and a +3 tome for 15% AC and 20 PRR is pretty amazing.

For that guy who screamed MAD, you can always NOT put 18 points into Wis. I find it works pretty well. Min maxing stats on a monk is quite silly, and always has been.

V

Masadique
06-11-2012, 03:41 PM
Just for some clarity,

My view of this suggestion would be to increase each stat equally; essentially giving a monk or monk splash, with 20% dodge, an additional 20 PRR. At least this would do something to mitigate the changes without having to create an additional complex system, as others have proposed.

So monk splashes would be just as good of a monk as a pure monk, but they would also get the perks of another class in addition? That seems quite silly. 2 levels of monk doesn't make you a monk, and it should stay that way. A lot of the old AC problems seemed to arise from trying to balance around pajama fighters.

V

Quetzacoala
06-11-2012, 03:46 PM
Forgive my ignorance, as I have not been perusing the forums for information about the expansion until now. It seems that armor class is becoming more important, especially with heavy armor, and thus monks are in trouble do to a reliance on cloth. The suggestions to add more dodge based upon the level of a monk seems like a decent idea, but it seems to me that characters that splash two monk for evasion are getting especially damaged then.

They would only have two levels of monk, and would therefore not qualify for much of the dodge bonuses as it is being proposed, but they would also be reliant on cloth armor as well.

J1NG
06-11-2012, 04:05 PM
I had previously suggested in the NDA'd forum a possible solution.

Example (been edited from previous example):

Level 2: +3 AC
Level 5: +3 AC (+6 AC Total), +1% Dodge
Level 10: +3 AC (+9 AC Total), +1% Dodge (2% total)
Level 15: +3 AC (+12 AC Total), +3% Dodge (5% total)
Level 20: +3 AC (+15 AC Total), +5% Dodge (10% total)

This doesn't include any other bonuses from Dex, Wis that may give more Dodge bonuses. But it will give a Pure 20 Monk some base Dodge in built for being 20. Whilst Splash monks get some AC and some minor base Dodge bonuses, but the higher level ones are more evasive.

Just some musings though, nothing serious. Just throwing the usual idea around.

J1NG

Ape_Man
06-11-2012, 04:25 PM
So monk splashes would be just as good of a monk as a pure monk, but they would also get the perks of another class in addition? That seems quite silly. 2 levels of monk doesn't make you a monk, and it should stay that way. A lot of the old AC problems seemed to arise from trying to balance around pajama fighters.

V

The benefits of the higher-level stance make that concern to be nonsense.

Masadique
06-11-2012, 04:47 PM
The benefits of the higher-level stance make that concern to be nonsense.

I really beg to differ. Most splashes aren't using any stance. Just netting all of the other awesome monk abilities.

fool101
06-11-2012, 05:04 PM
So monk splashes would be just as good of a monk as a pure monk, but they would also get the perks of another class in addition? That seems quite silly. 2 levels of monk doesn't make you a monk, and it should stay that way. A lot of the old AC problems seemed to arise from trying to balance around pajama fighters.

V

Ok, but think about it like this:

A 2 level splash often does not have the "uncapped dodge". So theoretically, it would be possible to benefit from the extra PRR I was suggesting. But with the extra bonuses from armor that a clonk could get, for instance, I think the pure (or mostly pure) monk would still benefit the most from this type of change.

This seems like a reasonable way to aid in certain builds that got hurt by the changes

Kiel
06-11-2012, 05:06 PM
Im taking a wait and see approach.My main is a pure monk 2nd life.I bought the CE pack but im not renewing vip until i know for sure that ill be able to handle the changes.If i dont like them ill give other recently released mmo's a chance.

Its not nearly as bad as when swg dumbed down the 27+ classes to 9 and gave everyone jedi after working towards that goal for 2 years.

Ape_Man
06-11-2012, 05:07 PM
I really beg to differ. Most splashes aren't using any stance. Just netting all of the other awesome monk abilities.

Evasion and AC. What other "awesome" benefits does a 1-2 splash net? Serious question.

Masadique
06-11-2012, 05:16 PM
Evasion and AC. What other "awesome" benefits does a 1-2 splash net? Serious question.

Two feats. What else do you want it to have? We don't need 3.0 ranger again.

- 3.0 rangers got about 5 feats at level one then nothing after.

Wis to ac, evasion, solid saves (+2 two two saves fighters suffer in), and 44 more HP (two toughness feats). All said, it's a pretty hefty chunk for just two levels. I don't think that 2 levels needs to give you the dodge, if we get it, bonus monks so badly need.

V

donblas
06-11-2012, 05:19 PM
Evasion and AC. What other "awesome" benefits does a 1-2 splash net? Serious question.

Even worse, most of mine don't even get evasion - they are rangers who get it anyway.

And they use TWF for ranger tempest bonuses so don't get to use stances, due to using non-centring weapons. Bow also uncentres you unless you use another feat.

So use 2 non-ranger levels for AC and feats, and lose capstone. It's so Op it must be nerfed!!!!

Masadique
06-11-2012, 08:57 PM
Even worse, most of mine don't even get evasion - they are rangers who get it anyway.

And they use TWF for ranger tempest bonuses so don't get to use stances, due to using non-centring weapons. Bow also uncentres you unless you use another feat.

So use 2 non-ranger levels for AC and feats, and lose capstone. It's so Op it must be nerfed!!!!

If it wasn't better than capstone, it wouldn't be used. That fact that it is better than something you get at level 20 is kinda scary.

V

Malky
06-12-2012, 05:49 AM
Personal D0000M! level = 19%

Be careful, if your dooom level falls below 0, some unexpectable things might happen.

Like... negative dooom level = dev fanboï ?? :D

Ape_Man
06-12-2012, 08:01 AM
If it wasn't better than capstone, it wouldn't be used. That fact that it is better than something you get at level 20 is kinda scary.

V

The fighter and pally capstones are arguably better than the 2 splash as there is a noticeable DPS loss. Rogues . . . forget it, you're an idiot if you splash and give up that capstone.

Only class that doesn't lose much splashing is ranger which is by far the weakest one. Let's see what happens in the ENH pass as if I were a betting man I'd be betting that that 'Whilrling Dervish' thingy in the upper-end of Tempest (100% off-hand STR damage) that Madfloyd leaked will be a melee capstone.

Regardless, when you compare the benefits of higher level stances (particularly Earth), the higher Centered AC bonus, Touch of Death, Shadow fade, quivering palm, light monk abilities including healing curse, etc . . . saying the bulk of the benefits of monks come in the first 1-2 levels is just untrue.

Ape_Man
06-12-2012, 08:01 AM
Be careful, if your dooom level falls below 0, some unexpectable things might happen.

Like... negative dooom level = dev fanboï ?? :D

That'll NEVER happen :)

Masadique
06-12-2012, 10:30 AM
Regardless, when you compare the benefits of higher level stances (particularly Earth), the higher Centered AC bonus, Touch of Death, Shadow fade, quivering palm, light monk abilities including healing curse, etc . . . saying the bulk of the benefits of monks come in the first 1-2 levels is just untrue.

The reason I was using 2 levels was that you asked me what else you get from the first two levels. In regards to the higher levels, it really is a hard call. Tier II vs Tier III is a rather large jump for the stances. Tier III vs Tier IV doesn't seem to be as major. It can be very hard to establish later level splashes. I am currently trying to figure out if pure monk or a split will make the better tank. Currently it would be a monk/fighter split, but the changes to AC are making pure monk look much much stronger.

Earth III - Earth IV should be a jump closer to SDII vs SDIII. As is it, the gap is fairly small.

V

Ape_Man
06-12-2012, 10:38 AM
The reason I was using 2 levels was that you asked me what else you get from the first two levels. In regards to the higher levels, it really is a hard call. Tier II vs Tier III is a rather large jump for the stances. Tier III vs Tier IV doesn't seem to be as major. It can be very hard to establish later level splashes. I am currently trying to figure out if pure monk or a split will make the better tank. Currently it would be a monk/fighter split, but the changes to AC are making pure monk look much much stronger.

Earth III - Earth IV should be a jump closer to SDII vs SDIII. As is it, the gap is fairly small.

V


The PRR for Earth IV does look a little low . .. unless they're leaving it low as they expect it to be combined with SDIII when the ENH pass hits.

LeLoric
06-12-2012, 10:43 AM
Rogues . . . forget it, you're an idiot if you splash and give up that capstone.



You do know that monk wrap attack speed full str offhand hits and doublestrike from air stance can make up for that capstone? You do lose 2 assasinate dc but gain a feat and wis to ac.

donblas
06-12-2012, 10:53 AM
Just in case anyone was wondering. I really think monks will still be ok as tanks. 2 build points, one feat, and a +3 tome for 15% AC and 20 PRR is pretty amazing.
V

As you said this is level 20.

Would you want to level a monk/monk splash to level 20 in order to get this? With reduced AC and no PRR this won't be a lot of fun for a monk "tank".

Just take a fighter, slap on any old armor and you'll be a better tank than a monk I suspect

Failedlegend
06-12-2012, 11:09 AM
If it wasn't better than capstone, it wouldn't be used. That fact that it is better than something you get at level 20 is kinda scary.

V

Thats actually kind off the point...if Pure 20s were the only viable option because there's nothing of relatively equal gain that can be obtained by multiclassing than Multi-classing becomes pointless...and frankly I stop playing

On the other hand if theres little to no reason to go pure (ie. The Ranger Capstone) the opposite becomes true where NOT multiclassing becomes pointless, IMO the is far less of an issue but for others is not.

A good example of a relatively even trade WAS the Tukaw vs. Pure Sorc both are fairly powerful builds in their own right...although the Tukaw has taken some major hits in viability recently and if the last dev info we got on the enhancement system has been left unchanged the Tukaw and Multi-classing in general will take a huge hit (well except 18/1/1 builds will get a boost if the devs idea to remove level gating goes through)

Masadique
06-12-2012, 11:34 AM
As you said this is level 20.

Would you want to level a monk/monk splash to level 20 in order to get this? With reduced AC and no PRR this won't be a lot of fun for a monk "tank".

Just take a fighter, slap on any old armor and you'll be a better tank than a monk I suspect

Would I want to level a monk to 20 so he can become a tank? Yes... Leveling tanks in general is boring business. I've done it about 6 times already though, and I really don't mind anymore.

Fighters make different tanks. That's the point, other classes do different things. Even paladin vs fighter is different in a lot of ways. My monk tank does a lot more damage than my fighter tank. My fighter soaks a lot better. My monk has insanely high healing amp. My fighter can shield block.

Honestly, the biggest downside I see to going pure monk, I may still have to go 2 levels of fighter, is the lack of maxed out intimidate.



Thats actually kind off the point...if Pure 20s were the only viable option because there's nothing of relatively equal gain that can be obtained by multiclassing than Multi-classing becomes pointless...and frankly I stop playing

On the other hand if theres little to no reason to go pure (ie. The Ranger Capstone) the opposite becomes true where NOT multiclassing becomes pointless, IMO the is far less of an issue but for others is not.

A good example of a relatively even trade WAS the Tukaw vs. Pure Sorc both are fairly powerful builds in their own right...although the Tukaw has taken some major hits in viability recently and if the last dev info we got on the enhancement system has been left unchanged the Tukaw and Multi-classing in general will take a huge hit (well except 18/1/1 builds will get a boost if the devs idea to remove level gating goes through)

I'm not saying 20 is the only option. I really don't know if I want to go 12 monk/8 fighter for SD, or if I want 20 monk. I think 20 makes more sense right now for epic tanking because they have no viable ways to make monks beefier - so the 8 AC from 8 more monk levels is super attractive.

I wish 12 monk would still allow me to tank, but I just don't see it happening until the enhancement revamp UNLESS the devs give monks a bit of loving in regards to AC or dodge, like I said I feel PRR should stay with Earth Stance and heavy armors. I don't build for things that don't exist however, so I am planning my new tanks around what we have. This means making the most of EDs to get those little bits of AC, PRR, and dodge while still maintaining the high DPS that makes monk tanks great.

V

Kiel
06-12-2012, 11:40 AM
I wonder if theyll change the playability when rolling monks from very good to challenging?Or is this payback for them finally fixing wraps completely?

Hey thanks for rebuilding the ship of ddo but um it still leaks.

Ah no wonder monks are 50 percent off in the ddo store this week.

Rhysem
06-12-2012, 12:51 PM
Oh nice.

Improved combat expertise (min level: 20 - Feat prereq: Combat expertise) (1 rank - 2 AP): (Active Cooldown: 6secs) The combat expertise grants an additional 20PRR

Just in case anyone was wondering. I really think monks will still be ok as tanks. 2 build points, one feat, and a +3 tome for 15% AC and 20 PRR is pretty amazing.

For that guy who screamed MAD, you can always NOT put 18 points into Wis. I find it works pretty well. Min maxing stats on a monk is quite silly, and always has been.

V

Thanks for sticking your foot in your mouth for the world to see, but my monk didn't start with anything over 16 before racial adjustments (and the only thing over it after was, I think, dex at 17 since I'm currently stuck as a halfling and haven't TR'd yet -- waiting to see if monk is viable post the changes). Not everyone is a third life TR where the build points are a huge giant win for MAD classes. First lifers should be viable too, and needing 4 stats out of 6 is already close to too much.

The first lifer also isn't likely wandering around with a +3 tome, especially to a non-primary stat for their class. That shouldn't prevent them from tanking. Not to mention no taking till you're 21 (unless you found a magic feat slot at 20? No? Okay) to actually be able to tank, plus all the other CE stance issues (no PA, turning off on finishers -- or have they finally fixed that?).

Aalric
06-12-2012, 01:37 PM
1 of the beauties of the monk is (or I should say was) that it could have decent AC (not the highest, but close) without losing decent dps. This is simply now gone.

A monk's AC will be behind an armored melee & not having any decent PRR will really bite. They also don't have the hp of other melee, which will make the problem bigger. & the biggest thing is that a Melee really no longer needs a shield to get a high AC/ PRR so they can also get decent dps (taking away another monk advantage)

No, they are definately glass cannons now. Can they survive? Of course they can, just as they survive in epics till now. But they are now sub-optimal. Why take a monk when you could take a figher with more AC, more PRR, the same dps & more hp to boot?

The sadest thing is, imo, that we have had some interesting suggestions that could have helped & we seem to have zero interest from the developers about this. It may still change but I'm not holding my breath. Afterall, Rangers were nerfed to hell & back in U5 & they still won't aknowledge it

Welcome to monks, the new rangers, :(

Aerendil
06-12-2012, 01:54 PM
Has anyone actually playtested Monks yet on Llama, or is this going to remain a pure speculation thread?


My 2cp:

1) Dodge - yes, I feel Monks should get some more dodge in some way, shape, or form. A base +dodge with their AC increments could work, as could a change to Air stance.
It doesn't make sense that Rogues and *Barbarians* are the dodgiest classes, when the guy who doesn't wear any armour at all doesn't get any latent dodge bonuses.

2) Stances - so far Earth stance was revised to add PRR. Devs could easily change the others as well - perhaps, as mentioned above, add +dodge to Air stance; +AC to Water stance; and ...I don't know, something else to Fire to make it actually attractive.

3) PRR - yeah, that's the only downside to being in pajamas, and where Monks may run into some serious issues. You're not good at absorbing hits. I guess that's what Earth stance is for, should you need it; otherwise, in a raid, you can rely on your healers to keep you up (and your FoL if light monk), and solo you have Wholeness as a full heal every 3 min or so which is far more than many other classes have.

I'd like to see some concrete evidence of Monks in epic content, however, and see how much of an issue this is before we continue shouting that the sky is falling when it may, in fact, not be....

donblas
06-12-2012, 01:57 PM
1 of the beauties of the monk is (or I should say was) A monk's AC will be behind an armored melee & not having any decent PRR will really bite. They also don't have the hp of other melee, which will make the problem bigger. & the biggest thing is that a Melee really no longer needs a shield to get a high AC/ PRR so they can also get decent dps (taking away another monk advantage)

No, they are definately glass cannons now. Can they survive? Of course they can, just as they survive in epics till now. But they are now sub-optimal. Why take a monk when you could take a figher with more AC, more PRR, the same dps & more hp to boot?

The sadest thing is, imo, that we have had some interesting suggestions that could have helped & we seem to have zero interest from the developers about this. It may still change but I'm not holding my breath. Afterall, Rangers were nerfed to hell & back in U5 & they still won't aknowledge it

Welcome to monks, the new rangers, :(

+1

The devs keep saying that one of the strengths of DDo that they want to preserve is the creativity that multiclassing brings and the variety of useful builds that can be made..

Don't tell us this is what you want devs - show us this is what you want.

donblas
06-12-2012, 02:01 PM
Has anyone actually playtested Monks yet on Llama, or is this going to remain a pure speculation thread?

I'd like to see some concrete evidence of Monks in epic content, however, and see how much of an issue this is before we continue shouting that the sky is falling when it may, in fact, not be....

Most toons don't play epics and the changes affect all toons, not just epic ones. If the combat system changes had fixed AC problems in epics totally and perfectly, they still would be bad if they adversely afftected gameplay in low-mid levels where most toons play. They have failed in the latter and I don't think they achieved the former.

Ape_Man
06-12-2012, 02:03 PM
You do know that monk wrap attack speed full str offhand hits and doublestrike from air stance can make up for that capstone? You do lose 2 assasinate dc but gain a feat and wis to ac.

yes, but are you gonna give up your rapiers now that WOPs work in epic?

Masadique
06-12-2012, 02:47 PM
Thanks for sticking your foot in your mouth for the world to see, but my monk didn't start with anything over 16 before racial adjustments (and the only thing over it after was, I think, dex at 17 since I'm currently stuck as a halfling and haven't TR'd yet -- waiting to see if monk is viable post the changes). Not everyone is a third life TR where the build points are a huge giant win for MAD classes. First lifers should be viable too, and needing 4 stats out of 6 is already close to too much.

The first lifer also isn't likely wandering around with a +3 tome, especially to a non-primary stat for their class. That shouldn't prevent them from tanking. Not to mention no taking till you're 21 (unless you found a magic feat slot at 20? No? Okay) to actually be able to tank, plus all the other CE stance issues (no PA, turning off on finishers -- or have they finally fixed that?).

Monk tanks have almost NEVER been viable for a first lifer. They need too many stats and too much gear. It's not just a meat sack with a shield. Monks require an insane amount of fine tuning. 2 build points is not the biggest deal in the world. It is hard to fit in I'll admit, but a first lifer drow monk wouldn't even have to spend them. Silly idea? Yes it is. Drow make bad tanks, so do most first life toons.

No taking until 21? I TRed and got PLs instead of grinding out more epic gear, since it will be replaced. New expansion is changing everything. I decided I would change with it so I am. PA was not an option for any first life pure monk tank. I don't know if you actually played one, but you'd be missing on anything above normal raids. Certainly wouldn't be hitting eBloodplate. PA is great for damage, tanks need to focus on staying alive in my opinion. If this weren't true, barbs would be the best tanks period. I do not know what this CE finisher bug is. I am curious now though. Does it prevent finishers?

Once again, I understand that most first life people will be unable to make a monk tank. I know they won't have +3 tomes. They also probably made a few mistakes making the toon that they will learn about while tanking or trying to. My first 2, ok all of my lives, have been riddled with failures that made me change how I played and made characters.

V

PS: What are the CE finisher bugs?

Ape_Man
06-12-2012, 02:52 PM
Has anyone actually playtested Monks yet on Llama, or is this going to remain a pure speculation thread?


My 2cp:

1) Dodge - yes, I feel Monks should get some more dodge in some way, shape, or form. A base +dodge with their AC increments could work, as could a change to Air stance.
It doesn't make sense that Rogues and *Barbarians* are the dodgiest classes, when the guy who doesn't wear any armour at all doesn't get any latent dodge bonuses.

2) Stances - so far Earth stance was revised to add PRR. Devs could easily change the others as well - perhaps, as mentioned above, add +dodge to Air stance; +AC to Water stance; and ...I don't know, something else to Fire to make it actually attractive.

3) PRR - yeah, that's the only downside to being in pajamas, and where Monks may run into some serious issues. You're not good at absorbing hits. I guess that's what Earth stance is for, should you need it; otherwise, in a raid, you can rely on your healers to keep you up (and your FoL if light monk), and solo you have Wholeness as a full heal every 3 min or so which is far more than many other classes have.

I'd like to see some concrete evidence of Monks in epic content, however, and see how much of an issue this is before we continue shouting that the sky is falling when it may, in fact, not be....


I'm sorry, the other stances adding PRR is just stupid. Monks are supposed to be "dodgey" and that what should give the additional defense.

The below post, which has gotten no attention at all, solves these issues.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377700

Enoach
06-12-2012, 03:26 PM
In my original assessment of the AC - Dodge - PRR, I was seeing the shift of Dexterity/Dodge enhancements from AC to an other section.

Placing Standards more along this line.

Tanks = High AC - Low to Moderate Dodge - High PRR
Non-Evasion Melee Mod to Heavy = Moderate to High AC - Low to Moderate Dodge - Moderate to High PRR
Evasion Light Armor = Moderate to High AC - High Dodge - Low PRR
Monks = Low to Moderate AC - Extremely High Dodge - Low PRR
Arcane Casters = Low AC - Low Dodge - Low PRR

I guess I missed something and need to re-read the changes. As I was still seeing Tank types dedicating slots to Dodge to fill their max dodge to decrease their chances of getting hit.

Aalric
06-12-2012, 03:39 PM
Monks = Low to Moderate AC - Extremely High Dodge - Low PRR


the problem is, atm, with the present mechanics, a monk also has low dodge. Although in theory he could slot some more dodge in, it would still only give him medium dodge and would totally negate his dps - something a SD fighter no longer has to do

Ape_Man
06-12-2012, 03:49 PM
the problem is, atm, with the present mechanics, a monk also has low dodge. Although in theory he could slot some more dodge in, it would still only give him medium dodge and would totally negate his dps - something a SD fighter no longer has to do

Problem solved: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377700

Support this idea.

Masadique
06-12-2012, 04:00 PM
Problem solved: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377700

Support this idea.

That doesn't really help monks. It just adds more dodge to all classes. The perk of some other ideas, wis/dex to dodge or just 1% dodge every other monk level, is that they give love to the class that needs it, monks, instead of spreading the love around and still leaving monks at the same dodge as everyone else. That idea would make wizards very very tanks, Insightful Reflexes now adds (let's assume 44 int which is low and soon to be lower) 11% dodge before the other reflex bonuses.

Monks need something which gives them dodge. Dodge doesn't need something which can also be used by monks. That or disregard the fact that monks should be different from other melee and let them pick up much more PRR/AC. Personally I would prefer monks just getting more dodge. Unfortunately it would have to be a rather sizable increase over other classes. Something closer to 20%, obviously at a cost, than 10%. This would allow for monks to quite easily reach dodge levels around 40%. Sounds awesome. Isn't as good as PRR/AC when straight up tanking. It will certainly be a fun challenge to figure out which EDs and feats will allow my monk to tank.

It'll be a trip, but a fun trip I'm sure.

V

whomhead
06-12-2012, 04:16 PM
How does the DR10/lawful from being pure monk factor in to total damage mitigation, especially when combined with 20 prr from enhanced combat expertise and 15 more from earth IV? If comes out to 30% or so mitigation (purely guessing here), then that could still contribute pretty well to monk survival. When you add in misses from concealment, dodge and AC suddenly it starts to look like monks don't have to be glass cannons.

I'm just trying to find a silver lining here.

Total HP are still a problem, as I see it, even if the above does amount to significant mitigation. Bigger HP pool increases the time between heals and reduces the likelihood of those unavoidable moments (looking at you, lag beast!) where you roll badly a few times in a row and the raid wipes. My guess is that the solution to the HP problem will be going with Fury or Dreadnaught for epic destiny, then twisting tactically into the GoF destiny. Might even pick up some DPS while you're at it.

RS-Makk
06-12-2012, 04:48 PM
yes, but are you gonna give up your rapiers now that WOPs work in epic?

Yikes.. they work in epic now?

maddong
06-12-2012, 06:06 PM
I think pure monks will be ok.
You won't have as high of AC or physical resist as a heavy armor tank but you will get:
DR 10/epic
Up to 36% dodge (shadowdancer with 3 twists)
Much better AC than a monk splash
25% incorp (ninja spy > shadowdancer)

You can always get a source of displacement.

I do hate the new AC system because of the nerf to dex builds but I think you will get decent damage mitigation.

Monk splashes are screwed.

Masadique
06-12-2012, 06:06 PM
How does the DR10/lawful from being pure monk factor in to total damage mitigation, especially when combined with 20 prr from enhanced combat expertise and 15 more from earth IV? If comes out to 30% or so mitigation (purely guessing here), then that could still contribute pretty well to monk survival. When you add in misses from concealment, dodge and AC suddenly it starts to look like monks don't have to be glass cannons.

I'm just trying to find a silver lining here.

Total HP are still a problem, as I see it, even if the above does amount to significant mitigation. Bigger HP pool increases the time between heals and reduces the likelihood of those unavoidable moments (looking at you, lag beast!) where you roll badly a few times in a row and the raid wipes. My guess is that the solution to the HP problem will be going with Fury or Dreadnaught for epic destiny, then twisting tactically into the GoF destiny. Might even pick up some DPS while you're at it.

Hadn't looked into Fury. It is cool too. All of these EDs are too ****ing interesting.

Fury - amazing autogrants, great damage, very minor defensive buffs outside of the +100 HP from autogrants.

Dread - good autogrants, great damage, moderate at best defensive buffs - few enough that twisting could eat them up. This could be great on Helves/Humans who can get damage boost without having to use epic AP. I think I'll end up twisting into this instead of doing it as the main.

Unyielding - great autogrants for any tank, pretty bad damage but high threat for agro, defensive is the name of the game here and it has plenty. It's a cool destiny, but using it as your main on a monk seems to be a stretch. Too many aspects of this ED simply don't mesh with a monk even if they do with a tank.

Flower Power - god I hate their autogrants, middle of the road DPS boosts, middle of the road defensive bonuses. I want this to be the obvious choice. It has such awesomely designed abilities. It augments stances. It's just monk too the max. Unfortunately, every time I look at it, I am underwhelmed by the options it would give to a monk tank outside of the earth stance augmentation, martial arts, and maybe that water stance passive. Dex and Wis are always nice, but almost every other ED has a way to get more AC than these stat boosts would provide.

It's looking like Fury or Dread will be the best tanking options for a nonshield user. Fury looks best to me right now, but that may change tomorrow. Not that it matters since we're still in beta.

So much reading...

V

donblas
06-12-2012, 06:13 PM
Much better AC than a monk splash
.

LOL, not much of a recommendation! Almost anything will have!

Masadique
06-12-2012, 06:14 PM
I think pure monks will be ok.
You won't have as high of AC or physical resist as a heavy armor tank but you will get:
DR 10/epic
Up to 36% dodge (shadowdancer with 3 twists)
Much better AC than a monk splash
25% incorp (ninja spy > shadowdancer)


I don't see any twistable dodge bonuses except for the 100% 2 minute cool down one. DR 10/epic is looking worse and worse the more I think about it. It may be good against trash but SURELY the EPIC bosses will count as epic. Then again, don't bring logic to a fist fight.

I am still confident that the devs will do something to increase dodge or AC for monks. We shall see.

V

AylinIsAwesome
06-12-2012, 06:45 PM
Has anyone actually playtested Monks yet on Llama, or is this going to remain a pure speculation thread?


My 2cp:

1) Dodge - yes, I feel Monks should get some more dodge in some way, shape, or form. A base +dodge with their AC increments could work, as could a change to Air stance.
It doesn't make sense that Rogues and *Barbarians* are the dodgiest classes, when the guy who doesn't wear any armour at all doesn't get any latent dodge bonuses.

Agreed, some dodge bonuses from Monk levels should be in there. Perhaps 2% at level 1, 4% at level 5, 6% at level 10, 8% at level 15, and 10% at level 20 would be appropriate?


2) Stances - so far Earth stance was revised to add PRR. Devs could easily change the others as well - perhaps, as mentioned above, add +dodge to Air stance; +AC to Water stance; and ...I don't know, something else to Fire to make it actually attractive.

+to-hit % bonus to Fire stance? Would be useful for undergeared Monks, and against high AC mobs.

Maybe something like +3%/+6%/+9%/+12%?

Ape_Man
06-12-2012, 07:14 PM
I am still confident that the devs will do something to increase dodge or AC for monks. We shall see.

V


based on what? Other than their past history of favoring the pay-2-win classes?

Ape_Man
06-12-2012, 07:15 PM
Yikes.. they work in epic now?

The stat-damage resistance is gone.

Ape_Man
06-12-2012, 07:16 PM
Agreed, some dodge bonuses from Monk levels should be in there. Perhaps 2% at level 1, 4% at level 5, 6% at level 10, 8% at level 15, and 10% at level 20 would be appropriate?



+to-hit % bonus to Fire stance? Would be useful for undergeared Monks, and against high AC mobs.

Maybe something like +3%/+6%/+9%/+12%?

To-hit for the under-geared isn't gonna be an issue, they're getting a buff. The people who are hitting everything on a 2 now should be getting a nerf.

AylinIsAwesome
06-12-2012, 07:25 PM
To-hit for the under-geared isn't gonna be an issue, they're getting a buff. The people who are hitting everything on a 2 now should be getting a nerf.

In that case, what is your opinion on some stacking healing amp? 5/10/15/20%?

fatherpirate
06-12-2012, 07:26 PM
The easy fix

Monks should get a resilence bonus based on level...modified by stance
It should increase at a regular rate as the monk levels

Wind stances should reduce it to the levels of light armor
Fire/water stances should be at medium armor level
and
Earth stance should be at heavy armor level

Kiel
06-12-2012, 07:27 PM
Ha spoken like a true poor person.I doubt theyll add anything for monks to improve them simply because i doubt they have enough time.Heck i dont even expect the game to be in good working order come the 25th.

And yes i feel dumb for paying 80 bucks on a expansion when it wasnt even done yet.

Ape_Man
06-12-2012, 07:36 PM
In that case, what is your opinion on some stacking healing amp? 5/10/15/20%?

What for? Like monks don't have enough? That's clearly fixing something that isn't broken.

AylinIsAwesome
06-12-2012, 07:59 PM
What for? Like monks don't have enough? That's clearly fixing something that isn't broken.

Fire stance right now is the stance for undergeared Monks (because of the to-hit and +1 Ki on-hit). If that is no longer an issue as you claim, it makes sense to give the stance something else undergeared Monks might not have (more Healing amp).

Masadique
06-12-2012, 08:12 PM
The easy fix

Monks should get a resilence bonus based on level...modified by stance
It should increase at a regular rate as the monk levels

Wind stances should reduce it to the levels of light armor
Fire/water stances should be at medium armor level
and
Earth stance should be at heavy armor level

Absolutely not. This would make monks far too powerful. I mean far too powerful.

Ape, I just have a bit of faith that they'll try to balance out dodge. I don't have any evidence, just hoping. If they don't, they don't.

V

Aalric
06-12-2012, 08:45 PM
I would have more fate if they would communicate

But then again, hope springs eternal....

fatherpirate
06-13-2012, 06:56 AM
Absolutely not. This would make monks far too powerful. I mean far too powerful.

Ape, I just have a bit of faith that they'll try to balance out dodge. I don't have any evidence, just hoping. If they don't, they don't.

V

all things equal, I would agree...but with the new changes...they are not equal.

in easier to under stand terms

If you don't change the monk..when the expansion hits a lvl 1ftr/lvl 19 mage in mithral plate
will have twice the damage resistance of a 20th lvl monk

AC is not equal to damage resistance
When a big boss starts wailing on the group with +150 to hit...ac is pretty worthless
damage resistance is priceless

Ape_Man
06-13-2012, 07:29 AM
all things equal, I would agree...but with the new changes...they are not equal.

in easier to under stand terms

If you don't change the monk..when the expansion hits a lvl 1ftr/lvl 19 mage in mithral plate
will have twice the damage resistance of a 20th lvl monk

AC is not equal to damage resistance
When a big boss starts wailing on the group with +150 to hit...ac is pretty worthless
damage resistance is priceless

except things aren't going to hit you every shot in MoTU unless you are a barbarian. You will get missed and dodge more than you do now.

Do you have any idea how LITTLE damage mittigation armor does on a non-defender build?

donblas
06-13-2012, 07:37 AM
Do you have any idea how LITTLE damage mittigation armor does on a non-defender build?

Pah! For one of my builds armor does ZERO damage mitigation except for the AC itself, and in that case the AC doesn't reduce hits like it once did. :(

Erekose
06-13-2012, 07:51 AM
I seen well built Str Monk with Alchemical handwraps and over 700+ HP do as good if not better in ToD than a Barb or Fighter.

I was very impressed. Can't why they need anymore help. They are getting access to a +10 seeker on their body through Red Dragon armor. I guess you cant be both max dps and a high ac, probably going to have to choose what flavor you want to be.

Masadique
06-13-2012, 10:26 AM
I seen well built Str Monk with Alchemical handwraps and over 700+ HP do as good if not better in ToD than a Barb or Fighter.

I was very impressed. Can't why they need anymore help. They are getting access to a +10 seeker on their body through Red Dragon armor. I guess you cant be both max dps and a high ac, probably going to have to choose what flavor you want to be.

Yup, on live, my monk tank is great. Just pumps out the damage. Come expansion, he loses a lot of his survivability. Everyone is getting +10 seeker if they want it. I get the feeling you haven't been following this topic too much.

Alch wraps are kinda meh for bosses to be honest. Primarily elemental damage which means most monsters ignore a good deal of it. Not the point though. AC will be higher on fighters, fine. PRR will be higher on fighters, it should. Why is dodge not higher, in fact lower due to fewer feats, on a monk than it is on a fighter? I'm not asking for my monk to become my fighter.

V

Erekose
06-15-2012, 11:19 AM
Yup, on live, my monk tank is great. Just pumps out the damage. Come expansion, he loses a lot of his survivability. Everyone is getting +10 seeker if they want it. I get the feeling you haven't been following this topic too much.

Alch wraps are kinda meh for bosses to be honest. Primarily elemental damage which means most monsters ignore a good deal of it. Not the point though. AC will be higher on fighters, fine. PRR will be higher on fighters, it should. Why is dodge not higher, in fact lower due to fewer feats, on a monk than it is on a fighter? I'm not asking for my monk to become my fighter.

V

I don't see how they loose survivability, they still retain inherent Spell resistance, improved evasion, DR 10 epic, c'mon why do Monk players simply ignore these when it is convenient?

redspecter23
06-15-2012, 11:26 AM
I don't see how they loose survivability, they still retain inherent Spell resistance, improved evasion, DR 10 epic, c'mon why do Monk players simply ignore these when it is convenient?

They lose relative survivability compared to what they had before in heroic dungeons. Obviously everyone is gaining as far as epic defenses are concerned, though those gains are varied. I think monks do have a lot going for them and are still quite survivable, when compared to other melee. It is just a shock to go from near unhittable in heroic content to smacked around like a rag doll while other classes like rogue, barb, pally and fighter get boosts to overall defenses compared to what they had on live.

It is clear that melee are meant to be hit much more than 5% from a dev perspective. Whether that is the right line of thinking or not is where my concern lies

donblas
06-15-2012, 12:33 PM
It is clear that melee are meant to be hit much more than 5% from a dev perspective. Whether that is the right line of thinking or not is where my concern lies

Historically and in fantasy, 95% (or very high) mitigation is perfectly reasonable.

In fantasy, eg LotR, elf heroes can wade through thousands of orcs with nary a scratch; and Asiatic monks can slay whole armies while getting only a small scratch on their cheek. I'm pretty sure no demon prince should worry about a kobold hurting it.

Likewise in real life and history. A high medieval knight in full plate should not really fear being hurt by a rat (even a quite big one). Medieval plate armor was also pretty well invulnerable to longbow arrows fired from even very close range by experienced archers - that's why they spent so much on it.

In a lot of circumstances very high damage mitigation is not only realistic - it's also flavorful.

whomhead
06-15-2012, 01:23 PM
Historically and in fantasy, 95% (or very high) mitigation is perfectly reasonable.

Agreed. They don't call them "tanks" for nothing!

redspecter23
06-15-2012, 01:49 PM
Since it appears that the old style of thinking and 95% melee mitigation are things the devs do not agree with, I suppose the questions should be asked.

1. How much of a beating are melee supposed to be taking by dev standards? 50% overall? 70%? Higher with maximum effort?

2. How are the melee supposed to deal with the incoming damage? In raids, a dedicated healer goes a long way. In 1 -20 leveling content, are we to rely on cure serious pots that barely held up before?

3. How much of a beating are casters supposed to be taking relative to the beatings that melee take, from a dev standpoint? And are the beating the casters are currently receiving reflecting those numbers? Any plans to reduce the survivability of casters relative to melee at some point? I think air elementals all on their own drop melee survivability a few points compared to casters. Could you add an elemental that specifically targets and massively cripples anyone that ISN'T in melee range? Maybe give earth elementals an anti magic debuff for 20 seconds to tack on to any failed earth grab check. Annoying? Yes, but no more so than an air elemental is to a melee.

4. Are there plans to provide additional defenses to melee for heroic content in the enhancement pass? Casters and divines do not need a babysitter for leveling content (or epic for that matter). I worry that low level melee having their ac knocked down will become more fragile than before, which I assume is what the dev goal is. How are we to handle the higher incoming damage without bringing a dedicated healer along or settling for normal and hard content while casters breeze through elite whether in alone or in a party and reap maximum xp.

redspecter23
06-15-2012, 01:53 PM
edit: double post

Skeald
06-15-2012, 03:11 PM
In another thread Eladrin made this comment:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin

In the current build, we're giving monks 2% dodge when defensively centered at levels 1, 2, and 4. They should also gain 15 points of armor class as they level.

We're still watching them.

end Quote



While this is a step in the right direction I, for one, do not consider this enough of a fix for monks. Let me state my case, monk is my favorite class, and I have several both light and dark.

While this new change does help, and will specifically help the splash builds, as it is very front loaded, it does not go far enough for people like me that have level 20 pure monks.

With the new system we will be on par with the basic dodge that rogues and barbarians get but we still do not have the uncanny dodge equivalent that these classes have (and I’m not necessarily saying we should have them). However, now it looks like if we want a true dodgy type of character we will need to splash 2 levels of rogue onto our monks, this to me just seems wrong.

What I am proposing is a sliding buff to dodge based on Wisdom. At each level we can gain a stacking +1% dodge that is caped by our wisdom score. In other words +1% at first, +2% at second, ect. And capped of course by our wisdom modifier so a character with a 30 wisdom would ultimately cap at +10% dodge (at 10th level).

The game mechanics are in place for other classes/feats. Examples being artificers bonus to scrolls, ect as their level rises, the Monk Cleric dilly for half elves (this is a wisdom to Ac thing that slides by level/enhancement), and monk ac bonus (as currently implemented on lam).

This method will allow for Splash monks to get some dodge (if they have the wisdom to allow it), and it will allow pure monks to gain additional dodge, over and above what a splash build would get, up to 20% at level 20 if they have a 50 wisdom.

I do not see this as game breaking in any way – we now have barbs and rogues with 50% dodge 25% of the time after all.

I have little problem with the current changes to AC for my monks, or their lack of PRR, (IMO cloth should not suck up any damage) but monks should be the dodgiest class available NOT BARBARIANS, and should run neck and neck with rogues in this area.

I am curious to hear what you all think about this.



As a side note i have not seen this change to dodge recieved in the new release notes - an oversight, in a leter build, minds changed ????

Aerendil
06-15-2012, 04:16 PM
In another thread Eladrin made this comment:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin

In the current build, we're giving monks 2% dodge when defensively centered at levels 1, 2, and 4. They should also gain 15 points of armor class as they level.

We're still watching them.

end Quote


*snip*
I have little problem with the current changes to AC for my monks, or their lack of PRR, (IMO cloth should not suck up any damage) but monks should be the dodgiest class available NOT BARBARIANS, and should run neck and neck with rogues in this area.

I am curious to hear what you all think about this.



As a side note i have not seen this change to dodge recieved in the new release notes - an oversight, in a leter build, minds changed ????

Two quick thoughts:
1) Is the AC coming into effect for those levels? It wasn't explicitly stated in the release notes - only the dodge portion - so I'm curious if it made it in and/or whether it's a bug.

2) Agreed regarding Dodge. +20% at level 20 wouldn't be unfair at all, considering the complete lack of PRR.
The way it's implemented right now, it only benefits the splashes - many of which I wonder if they'll continue to stay splash at all, or go for the armoured route for the PRR (for example, will we see 18 Ranger / 2 Fighter as the new split instead of 18/1/1, so as to make use of PRR?).

Like Skeald, I can understand the concept of lack of PRR on a Monk. They have nothing to absorb the damage, outside of their epic/10 DR and earth stance. Fair enough. But then to even that playing field, since AC is no longer a foolproof way of mitigating damage, their should be a noticeable increase in Dodge.

redspecter23
06-15-2012, 04:23 PM
Just a note here as I just got back from Lama testing. Hoping to get some confirmation from others. The text in the AC breakdown on the character sheet lists my current dodge (20% on the toon I was looking at) but also lists "max dodge: 25%" I don't want to cry doom on this quite yet, but can someone else confirm that dodge now has a hard cap of 25% for cloth users? If so, this is very disheartening to say the least.

rsking
06-15-2012, 04:45 PM
tod is not a death effect, it does 500 negative dmg or 250 on a save, so unless the hard to kill makes them impervious to negative dmg then the tod will work, though quivering palm hardly works less you invest heavily in it, and... with the hard to kill i will be taking it off my bar completely

The TOD on monks hurt the dark monks big time when they made TOD a negative damage and essentially plus gave it a save witch took the dps off of the dark monk. plus it doesn't work on constructs and there's a lot of those in the cannith packs not to mention VON and i can't think of any other packs off the top of my head (memorized too many how to complete this quest, puzzles, maps, ect.) and when they made the TOD less effective agains bosses that was another nerf to a dark monks dps so you had to make a str monk just to be able to do decent damage with out hand wraps. so that basicaly killed the dark monk and now the light monks are even stronger than dark monks on the live servers scents they added tier 3 to the light monks but its seems theres no point in makeing a dark monk any more from what i can see now.

Erekose
06-15-2012, 11:05 PM
They lose relative survivability compared to what they had before in heroic dungeons. Obviously everyone is gaining as far as epic defenses are concerned, though those gains are varied. I think monks do have a lot going for them and are still quite survivable, when compared to other melee. It is just a shock to go from near unhittable in heroic content to smacked around like a rag doll while other classes like rogue, barb, pally and fighter get boosts to overall defenses compared to what they had on live.

It is clear that melee are meant to be hit much more than 5% from a dev perspective. Whether that is the right line of thinking or not is where my concern lies

My thoughts would be to enhance what they already have, increase SR, remove the epic bypass on DR. AC is only one of a number of aspects to survivability. If you spec your Monk right you can get a decent amount of AC at the cost of DPS. That to me seems to be a decision for each player, dps or AC. Either way you still retain all of the inherent abilities. I don't want to see high dps, un-hittable AC, with SR and improved evasion with DR on a melee. That to me is God mode and is a complete imbalance.

redspecter23
06-15-2012, 11:19 PM
My thoughts would be to enhance what they already have, increase SR, remove the epic bypass on DR. AC is only one of a number of aspects to survivability. If you spec your Monk right you can get a decent amount of AC at the cost of DPS. That to me seems to be a decision for each player, dps or AC. Either way you still retain all of the inherent abilities. I don't want to see high dps, un-hittable AC, with SR and improved evasion with DR on a melee. That to me is God mode and is a complete imbalance.

With the right combination of destinies and twists, I think you could see an extremely powerful and defensive melee. Not max dps mind you, but very strong... and the casters will still be nuking things faster ;) There are a number of destiny combinations I want to try to see if I can bring my defenses up enough that it makes up for the ac loss with U14.

AylinIsAwesome
06-18-2012, 12:37 PM
The TOD on monks hurt the dark monks big time when they made TOD a negative damage and essentially plus gave it a save witch took the dps off of the dark monk. plus it doesn't work on constructs and there's a lot of those in the cannith packs not to mention VON and i can't think of any other packs off the top of my head (memorized too many how to complete this quest, puzzles, maps, ect.) and when they made the TOD less effective agains bosses that was another nerf to a dark monks dps so you had to make a str monk just to be able to do decent damage with out hand wraps. so that basicaly killed the dark monk and now the light monks are even stronger than dark monks on the live servers scents they added tier 3 to the light monks but its seems theres no point in makeing a dark monk any more from what i can see now.

ToD didn't lose as much as you're saying.

It did change to negative energy damage, which does limit the number of effective targets.

However, the change to the damage type is the only loss, as the save is negated by ToD now triggering on off-hand attacks. Against things that are vulnerable to negative energy damage, ToD now hits for more damage than it did before.

(Assuming you hit on 2-20, missing on a 1):
Old ToD:
1: 0
2-20: 500
Average: 475

(Assuming you hit on a 2-20, missing on a 1, and mobs only fail ToD save on a 1, and you are using GM Wind Stance):
New ToD:
1: 0
2-20:
17.1%: 250
.9%: 500
1.805%: 500
.19%: 750
.005%: 1000
64.98%: 500
6.84%: 750
.18%: 1000
6.859%: 750
1.083%: 1000
.057%: 1250
.001%: 1500

Average: 479.904

Having a high WIS score and/or more doublestrike from items, combined with cursing enemies to have negative energy vulnerability (like through Touch of Despair), makes the new ToD better than the old one, but only against things that actually take negative energy damage.

Archangel666
06-18-2012, 01:20 PM
The problem with those equations is that nobody will be hitting on a 2-20 anymore with the new combat system, so there's a good chance that a Dark Monk will trigger ToD and just see...

miss...

Byebye 50 Ki. I didn't want you anyway.

AylinIsAwesome
06-18-2012, 01:28 PM
The problem with those equations is that nobody will be hitting on a 2-20 anymore with the new combat system, so there's a good chance that a Dark Monk will trigger ToD and just see...

miss...

Byebye 50 Ki. I didn't want you anyway.

Even so, the new ToD, when it hits, does on average 505.163 damage, which is more than the 500 damage the old one did when it hit.

Archangel666
06-18-2012, 01:33 PM
Even so, the new ToD, when it hits, does on average 505.163 damage, which is more than the 500 damage the old one did when it hit.

Perhaps, but with a few crappy dice rolls I could quite easily see two or three missed ToD's and when you finally do land one you find that you've actually spent 150-200 Ki for that 505.163 damage.

Just pointing it out.

orakio
06-18-2012, 01:54 PM
Two quick thoughts:
1) Is the AC coming into effect for those levels? It wasn't explicitly stated in the release notes - only the dodge portion - so I'm curious if it made it in and/or whether it's a bug.

2) Agreed regarding Dodge. +20% at level 20 wouldn't be unfair at all, considering the complete lack of PRR.
The way it's implemented right now, it only benefits the splashes - many of which I wonder if they'll continue to stay splash at all, or go for the armoured route for the PRR (for example, will we see 18 Ranger / 2 Fighter as the new split instead of 18/1/1, so as to make use of PRR?).

Like Skeald, I can understand the concept of lack of PRR on a Monk. They have nothing to absorb the damage, outside of their epic/10 DR and earth stance. Fair enough. But then to even that playing field, since AC is no longer a foolproof way of mitigating damage, their should be a noticeable increase in Dodge.

20% dodge is far far more than a monk needs. Compare the monk to other dps setups, since it is more than able to be considered dps while "tanking". A monk in earth stances sees 15PRR + 6% inherent dodge. A barbarian in medium armor sees 15PRR +6% dodge from imp uncanny. A rogue in medium armor sees 12 PRR +6% dodge from imp uncanny. A ranger in medium is 15PRR, maybe more with tempest and feats, and 0 dodge. A fighter in heavy sees 20 PRR + 0 inherent dodge. A paladin in heavy is 20 PRR + 0 inherent dodge. All of those are roughly equivalent numbers.

It is only when a player gives up dps by wearing a shield that the AC and total PRR become higher, that player is making a large dps sacrifice to do so and is justified in the mitigation increase that comes from wearing a shield. Comparing situations in which multiple variables come into play (ED's + PrE's + gear choices+ feats) against a class baseline isn't a fair comparison. Monks are seeing overall resistance to damage completely equivalent to other classes before these additional factors come into play, meaning the combat system is properly balanced and classes are properly designed BEFORE taking into account PrE's/enhancements/etc.

If there are any problems with monks maximum potential mitigation when built completely around it then they should be addressed through feats/enhancements/PrE's, not through giving monks 14% additional dodge for no reason.

fatherpirate
06-21-2012, 10:30 AM
Disclaimer: not a heavy monk player but I see the pickle they are in.

Either / or

Either the monks need a new kind of special monk only armor OR they need some other damage mitigation

Monks either need damage resistance or more AC or both

or a bunch more hit points


no clue which we they plan on doing it

orakio
06-21-2012, 11:59 AM
@fatherpirate

Did a breakdown of PRR available for a full SD3 Heavy plate wearer + tower shield versus a pure monk and a 12monk/6fighter/2X multiclass build in the thread linked below.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4533306&postcount=93

Even before the mitigation capabilities from dodge comes into play, monks appear to be entirely competetive with SD3 in terms of overall mitigation available for builds that are fully defensively specc'd. Monks should not need any bonuses to AC or dodge or any other mitigation stat, although more hit points is a potential point of discussion.

If you don't want to read the post the basic breakdown is this:
Full PRR for SD3 with tower shield = 52.4949% mitigation from PRR, for a 12/6/2 it is 39.2159% and for 20 monk it is 36.4899% mitigation. When considering the additional 15% incorporeal bonus provided by ninja spy shadow fade over the ghostly item effect, overall mitigation becomes close enough to be a very minor difference, especially considering you are comparing a low dps non evasion full defensive tank versus a moderate dps twf tank with imp evasion.

This comparison does nothing to take dodge into account, which is easier to acquire for monks due to the 6% built in dodge as well as the 25% cap on dodge for cloth versus typically lower for heavy armor prior to feats/metal types/enhancements/etc.

Archangel666
06-21-2012, 12:12 PM
@fatherpirate

Did a breakdown of PRR available for a full SD3 Heavy plate wearer + tower shield versus a pure monk and a 12monk/6fighter/2X multiclass build in the thread linked below.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4533306&postcount=93

Even before the mitigation capabilities from dodge comes into play, monks appear to be entirely competetive with SD3 in terms of overall mitigation available for builds that are fully defensively specc'd. Monks should not need any bonuses to AC or dodge or any other mitigation stat, although more hit points is a potential point of discussion.

If you don't want to read the post the basic breakdown is this:
Full PRR for SD3 with tower shield = 52.4949% mitigation from PRR, for a 12/6/2 it is 39.2159% and for 20 monk it is 36.4899% mitigation. When considering the additional 15% incorporeal bonus provided by ninja spy shadow fade over the ghostly item effect, overall mitigation becomes close enough to be a very minor difference, especially considering you are comparing a low dps non evasion full defensive tank versus a moderate dps twf tank with imp evasion.

This comparison does nothing to take dodge into account, which is easier to acquire for monks due to the 6% built in dodge as well as the 25% cap on dodge for cloth versus typically lower for heavy armor prior to feats/metal types/enhancements/etc.

Question. How do Monks look when they don't have Shadow Fade (Light Monks) and don't use Mountain Stance (Some people don't want to cause potential grief for parties with 70% Hate)?

Aalric
06-21-2012, 01:14 PM
Question. How do Monks look when they don't have Shadow Fade (Light Monks) and don't use Mountain Stance (Some people don't want to cause potential grief for parties with 70% Hate)?

Dead

They look dead

orakio
06-21-2012, 01:25 PM
Question. How do Monks look when they don't have Shadow Fade (Light Monks) and don't use Mountain Stance (Some people don't want to cause potential grief for parties with 70% Hate)?

It is a variable amount really because somebody that isn't intending to tank also likely doesn't have the unyielding sentinel stance or improved combat expertise but they are still options for survivability for anyone that wants to increase it.

You could max potential have 70 PRR as a cloth wearer without earthstance or shields or SD/DoS, but likely numbers will be significantly lower than that figure.

I would expect a pure dps light path monk to be sitting at 0-15 PRR, basically having a planar focus of prowess as their only source of PRR. They would have 6% built in dodge, but a much wider range of potential dodge over that unless they utilize water stance or have the dodge feat. They would most likely have more AC than light and medium armor wearers, and close to or still exceeding that of heavy armor wearers that aren't utilizing shields and defensive PrE stances.

In comparison your average "armored" character would have 26-28 PRR for light armor, 32.5-36.25 for medium, and 39-44 PRR for heavy armor with the planar focus.

Gives you 14.9472%(for light armor)-23.2302% after AC mitigation for a heavy armored character with focus versus 9.0962% after AC for the cloth armored monk. Which means monks that aren't seeking defensive increases through feats/enhancements/PrE's would need ~8% more dodge from items than the heavy armor character to reach the equivalent mitigation to the heavy armor character, and monks with no defensive investments are just barely ahead of light armor wearers (except rogues/barbs with uncanny dodge) in post AC mitigation.

If you look to eliminate just 1 factor (i.e. not both dark path and earthstance at same time) DPS dark path monks would have more mitigation still without earthstance at 30.0962% after AC combined PRR+shadow fade, and light path earth stance monks would have a combined 22.9195% mitigation after AC which is just slightly under heavy armor.

Archangel666
06-21-2012, 01:31 PM
It is a variable amount really because somebody that isn't intending to tank also likely doesn't have the unyielding sentinel stance or improved combat expertise but they are still options for survivability for anyone that wants to increase it.

You could max potential have 70 PRR as a cloth wearer without earthstance or shields or SD/DoS, but likely numbers will be significantly lower than that figure.

I would expect a pure dps light path monk to be sitting at 0-15 PRR, basically having a planar focus of prowess as their only source of PRR. They would have 6% built in dodge, but a much wider range of potential dodge over that unless they utilize water stance or have the dodge feat. They would most likely have more AC than light and medium armor wearers, and close to or still exceeding that of heavy armor wearers that aren't utilizing shields and defensive PrE stances.

In comparison your average "armored" character would have 26-28 PRR for light armor, 32.5-36.25 for medium, and 39-44 PRR for heavy armor with the planar focus.

Gives you 14.9472%(for light armor)-23.2302% after AC mitigation for a heavy armored character with focus versus 9.0962% after AC for the cloth armored monk. Which means monks that aren't seeking defensive increases through feats/enhancements/PrE's would need ~8% more dodge from items than the heavy armor character to reach the equivalent mitigation to the heavy armor character, and monks with no defensive investments are just barely ahead of light armor wearers (except rogues/barbs with uncanny dodge) in post AC mitigation.

If you look to eliminate just 1 factor (i.e. not both dark path and earthstance at same time) DPS dark path monks would have more mitigation still without earthstance at 30.0962% after AC combined PRR+shadow fade, and light path earth stance monks would have a combined 22.9195% mitigation after AC which is just slightly under heavy armor.

Thank you for the answer. My little monk generally runs in GM Water for trash and GM Wind for boss fights. Currently on live she's sitting at 69 AC with just ship buffs. Nowhere near enough to tank epic named mobs but she's surprisingly durable against trash, I'm just a bit concerned that all the work I put into her to achieve that will be rendered meaningless.

I should also point out that at present I simply cannot afford to buy the expansion, so I have a horrible suspicion I'm going to go from fairly durable to...rather squishy.

Ape_Man
06-21-2012, 01:32 PM
Are you guys really comparing a fighter in heavy armor and a shield compared to a monk with both his fists going and evasion?

You really think the monk should have AS GOOD protect as a guy with a shield and twice the DPS?

redspecter23
06-21-2012, 01:53 PM
I think some of the point is that any other character besides a monk has an option to wear heavier armor. It may cost them a feat and they may lose evasion, but their core abilities are still there. A caster could theoretically wear heavy plate and with the right buffs, could cast just fine. A monk loses nearly all his class abilities if he chooses to wear any armor. So much so that he might as well not be a monk anymore.

Now I'm not saying that monks should be allowed to wear armor, but monks do deserve more ways to equalize their disadvantages than being in earth stance all the time. A higher dodge bonus than 25% would have been a way to do this. As that is no longer seen as an option by the devs, then PRR options other than earth stance (not necessarily stacking with it) should be made available.

grandeibra
06-21-2012, 01:55 PM
@apeman

Are you really comparing a fighter in heavy armor and a shield compared to a monk?

You really think the fighter with heavy armor and a shield should be AS GOOD at avoiding getting hit at all as a monk with high dex/wis and easy-to-move-in clothes?

AC in DnD is a combination of avoiding getting hit at all and hits sliding off without damaging. Monks/dex builds excel at one. Heavy armor/shield builds excel at one. Also DR is a benefit of heavy armor/shields (but in DDO it's pretty insignificant)

orakio
06-21-2012, 02:08 PM
I think some of the point is that any other character besides a monk has an option to wear heavier armor. It may cost them a feat and they may lose evasion, but their core abilities are still there. A caster could theoretically wear heavy plate and with the right buffs, could cast just fine. A monk loses nearly all his class abilities if he chooses to wear any armor. So much so that he might as well not be a monk anymore.

Now I'm not saying that monks should be allowed to wear armor, but monks do deserve more ways to equalize their disadvantages than being in earth stance all the time. A higher dodge bonus than 25% would have been a way to do this. As that is no longer seen as an option by the devs, then PRR options other than earth stance (not necessarily stacking with it) should be made available.

The problem is that in max end builds the overall damage mitigation for monks can quickly exceed that of fullplate SD3 + tower shields if that dodge cap goes over 25%. Light Plate wearers are currently capped at around 17-20% MDB, less if they aren't dwarven fighters or if they are using full plate. The calculations I did earlier already showed that a top end build "tank" monk has ever so slightly MORE mitigation than the SD3+Tower shield IF you have equivalent AC. In actual play SD3's have higher theorycrafted AC allowing them to still be slightly superior, but the gap in total character mitigation is far from large, and an increase to dodge cap on cloth armor could ultimately result in monks having more total physical mitigation than a SD3 tank with a tower shield.

It creates a tough situation because there is still a large disparity in toughness of ubermax defense builds and non-defensively focused ones. Changes that aren't analyzed in depth that seem really simple fixes could actually break other aspects of play.

Dex cap on cloth could go up a bit but I don't think there is a whole ton of flex room in it if they want to prevent cloth builds mitigation from potentially exceeding that of heavy armor + shield again.

orakio
06-21-2012, 02:12 PM
Thank you for the answer. My little monk generally runs in GM Water for trash and GM Wind for boss fights. Currently on live she's sitting at 69 AC with just ship buffs. Nowhere near enough to tank epic named mobs but she's surprisingly durable against trash, I'm just a bit concerned that all the work I put into her to achieve that will be rendered meaningless.

I should also point out that at present I simply cannot afford to buy the expansion, so I have a horrible suspicion I'm going to go from fairly durable to...rather squishy.

No problem, glad I could try to help. I enjoy doing the breakdown on the numbers especially on slow days at work.

Interestingly for you GM Water stance does give increased dodge% as well now instead of a minor bonus to AC, I am not 100% sure on exact values but you should see slightly higher mitigation numbers than the ones that I quoted for light path general non-earth stance monks.

Unfortunately I do think that without the expansion you are missing out on a lot of tools that can be used to improve your character, and in lower level live content you may see slight decreases in durability but for endgame content you will likely be equivalent or slightly more mitigation than on live. I doubt that as a monk you will be squishy, but you won't feel untouchable against mobs with lower attack scores.

redspecter23
06-21-2012, 02:27 PM
The problem is that in max end builds the overall damage mitigation for monks can quickly exceed that of fullplate SD3 + tower shields if that dodge cap goes over 25%. Light Plate wearers are currently capped at around 17-20% MDB, less if they aren't dwarven fighters or if they are using full plate. The calculations I did earlier already showed that a top end build "tank" monk has ever so slightly MORE mitigation than the SD3+Tower shield IF you have equivalent AC. In actual play SD3's have higher theorycrafted AC allowing them to still be slightly superior, but the gap in total character mitigation is far from large, and an increase to dodge cap on cloth armor could ultimately result in monks having more total physical mitigation than a SD3 tank with a tower shield.

It creates a tough situation because there is still a large disparity in toughness of ubermax defense builds and non-defensively focused ones. Changes that aren't analyzed in depth that seem really simple fixes could actually break other aspects of play.

Dex cap on cloth could go up a bit but I don't think there is a whole ton of flex room in it if they want to prevent cloth builds mitigation from potentially exceeding that of heavy armor + shield again.

Well I don't think any armor user should be coming close to 20% dodge potential (from 20 max dex bonus) if monks are capped at just 5 points more. I'm not saying the heavy armor users will be able to max out their dodge easily with current gear, much the same way that monks would have a tough time topping 25% with current gear. I'm just unhappy with a cap that could potentially be reached by armor users with just some minor epic gear additions that could be on the horizon. If a heavy armor user can reach the same dodge potential as a monk, I want the monk to be able to reach the same PRR potential as a heavy armor user.

I'm not suggesting that monks gain more defense without losing dps. I actually quite dislike that the best defensive stance also grants an amazing offensive ability. Heavy armor users start to give up dps potential if they want to max out their PRR. Monks should have to do the same. I'm hoping for more PRR options for monks even if they come at some dps loss.

Ape_Man
06-21-2012, 02:34 PM
AC in DnD is a combination of avoiding getting hit at all and hits sliding off without damaging. Monks/dex builds excel at one. Heavy armor/shield builds excel at one. Also DR is a benefit of heavy armor/shields (but in DDO it's pretty insignificant)

So give them more dodge, I'm all for that. Monks and splashes, as well as anything with evasion, should get more dodge in light/no armor.

Littlebrother
07-02-2012, 12:28 PM
... If the main change that comes from this is that people have to stop playing monks like they're on a tank/barb and more like the class they're supposed to be then i'm all for it. Rarely do you see rogues currently, running ahead of the group into 10 epic mobs....because they're forced to play a more subtle game, and even with that the top rogues will easily compete on kills with the melees, whilst being the leading squish.


Are you guys really comparing a fighter in heavy armor and a shield compared to a monk with both his fists going and evasion?

You really think the monk should have AS GOOD protect as a guy with a shield and twice the DPS?

+1 to both. IDC how "evasive-y" you are, if there is a dude wearing pajamas and a guy in a full suit of plate armor carrying a tower shield, it makes sense to me to say that the dude in the armor is going to be able to stand up to a beating a little better than the pajama man.

What about dodge? Well, how about you make a dodge feat that increases the dodge at a cost to both concentration and to-hit, because even the best kung-fu-ers are gonna have to at least slow down on hitting something if they're now dodging incoming attacks.

Some passive boost to defense is not the answer... IMO. Think about it, wearing full plate armor actually IS a PASSIVE boost to armor, whereas when someone swings an axe at your head and you DODGE it, that's an ACTIVE dodge. If you're actively dodging something then you would at least lose some of the speed/accuracy/concentration with which you are attacking.

All the super smart people love monks because it rewards our brilliance. It's not the end ofthe world, it's just another challenge.