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Dolphious
06-09-2012, 01:14 PM
Ok, I know this is the kind of insanity that might cause a rift in time and space causing the collapse of the multiverse, but I as someone who's main, and favorite toon, is a bard, am going to ask for a bard nerf.

I think inspire excellence should only allow for one stat song to be active at a time. Admittedly this is mainly because I'm worried that it's going to be extremely tedious to have a powerful song with a 30 second timer that can be "stacked" six times. That's 3 minutes of buffing (and the timer is shared with inspire courage, so really 3:30). I know the you probably expect people to make choices about one or two songs, but I'd rather not even have the option.

Edit: upon further reflection I think it would be a lot better to do as Shade suggests and simply reduce the cooldown a lot (6 seconds?), that would make for an important song preservation vs. power choice, rather than a tedious "do I want to deal with casting this every 30 seconds" choice.

legendlore
06-10-2012, 06:43 AM
Since exceptional +1 was changed to a competence bonus and most will have their stats even it really only adds an additional +1 modifier. If more competence bonus gear is added it won't provide that either.

It's a powerful ability for sure and the 30s cool down is rough but it's an epic feat and a core pnp one as well.

I think it's fine as it is, we're seeing more and more of an stat inflation with ap enhancements, gear and level ups this update so +4(net bonus +3 or +1 modifier) isn't as big as it once was, still great but not heroic levels great.


(also note that since u13 bard spellsong doesn't stack with Pharlian ship buff, if the other ship buffs follow suit, bards wont add to many spell school DC:s anymore)

Shade
06-10-2012, 03:45 PM
Then don't sing it 6 times. No ones forcing your hand.

Don't try to force your values upon others, especially by asking for nerfs. Thats just uncaring.

Some players do enjoy playing support roles, and most of them dont post on the forums.

This is an EPIC feat. It should be powerful.

goblean
06-10-2012, 04:39 PM
I agree just look at FvS, people were complaining about FvS doing X,Y,Z and then they got their wings nerfed.

Dolphious
06-10-2012, 06:17 PM
Then don't sing it 6 times. No ones forcing your hand.

Don't try to force your values upon others, especially by asking for nerfs. Thats just uncaring.

Some players do enjoy playing support roles, and most of them dont post on the forums.

This is an EPIC feat. It should be powerful.

Nobody's trying to stop them from stating their opinions (my guess is that they are perfectly capabable of writing them themselves though and don't need a spokesperson). I'm giving my feedback, you can give your's; though I doubt the devs are going to find your substance free ad hominems terribly pursuance.

I play a bard as my main, and I would prefer that we didn't have a song with a 30 second counter that can be "stacked" (or whatever, we all know how it works) 6 times. That's honest feedback based on my experimentation playing the beta. E.g. what these forums are for, now spewing venom at anyone you disagree with.

morrok73
06-10-2012, 06:28 PM
Don't try to force your values upon others, especially by asking for nerfs. Thats just uncaring.
.

LOL seriously!! I cannot believe you have the nerve to say that,classic,just classic.

Shade
06-10-2012, 08:42 PM
Nobody's trying to stop them from stating their opinions (my guess is that they are perfectly capabable of writing them themselves though and don't need a spokesperson).

Pretty much anytime anyone EVER says they enjoy playing a support character, they get massive hate and troll posts like crazy.

Even when I made a support bard build and posted it only for the benefit of some friends who specificly requested it (who later made it and loved it), the build as filled with 50+ replies of purely troll posts and hate. I would of just PM'd the build to them instead but PMs have a character limit.

A lot of people are stopping them. I've heard it from dozens of players, they quit the forums due to abuse of there playstyle. It's a fact.

And I'll be a spokeperson for whatever I like thankyou very much. I group with players like this on a constant basis, so I feel well qualified to speak on there be half.

Shade
06-10-2012, 08:48 PM
LOL seriously!! I cannot believe you have the nerve to say that,classic,just classic.

Using sarcasm in that fashion is against the forum rules.

Point me to a single thread ever where I specificly asked for nerf anything in this game. You'd be hard pressed.

My suggestions have ALWAYS been based around my philosphy of "buff don't nerf" to balance the game.

What I agree is a nerf or not one is often debated, but in my mind I have never specificly asked for one in the history of this game.

I get blamed for things like the fvs wing nerf. But the fact of the matter is, My suggestion that started that dispute was a suggestion to BUFF the epic lord of blades to crush favored souls.. Not to make any changes to wings what so ever.

FavoreD souls cried out, and turbines response: Nerf wings across the entire game.

And what makes me laugh: History has repeated itself:

Turbine wants to make the NEW DIFFICULTIES - which dont exist on live very challenging and adds "hard to kill".

Palemasters complain and turbines response: Nerf instakills across the entire game.

Whos really to blame here?

The fact of the matter is, the only 2 man completions of LoB remain done by only one class. Favored Souls. I was perfectly 100% right in my take on the raid and what classs dominated it.

People just like to put words into my mouth ive never said, it happens when you get a large fan base.

Dolphious
06-10-2012, 09:03 PM
new here?

Pretty much anytime anyone EVER says they enjoy playing a support character, they get massive hate and troll posts like crazy.

Even when I made a support bard build and posted it only for the benefit of some friends who specificly requested it (who later made it and loved it), the build as filled with 50+ replies of purely troll posts and hate. I would of just PM'd the build to them instead but PMs have a character limit.

A lot of people are stopping them. I've heard it from dozens of players, they quit the forums due to abuse of there playstyle. It's a fact.

And I'll be a spokeperson for whatever I like thankyou very much. I group with players like this on a constant basis, so I feel well qualified to speak on there be half.

So someone in some long past post said something nasty about "playing support characters" so you decided the best way to deal with that was to flame me for giving polite feedback?

Classy.

Edit: And the whole "buff/nerf" idea is at best marginally relevant in a beta anyway. I'm not asking anything to be taken away from people on the live servers.

Dolphious
06-10-2012, 09:25 PM
Since exceptional +1 was changed to a competence bonus and most will have their stats even it really only adds an additional +1 modifier. If more competence bonus gear is added it won't provide that either.

It's a powerful ability for sure and the 30s cool down is rough but it's an epic feat and a core pnp one as well.

I think it's fine as it is, we're seeing more and more of an stat inflation with ap enhancements, gear and level ups this update so +4(net bonus +3 or +1 modifier) isn't as big as it once was, still great but not heroic levels great.


(also note that since u13 bard spellsong doesn't stack with Pharlian ship buff, if the other ship buffs follow suit, bards wont add to many spell school DC:s anymore)

This kind of got lost in the mess, but I"m pretty sure that the whole exceptional bonuses becoming competence bonuses thing is a dev confirmed bug. If inspire excellence doesn't stack with pretty standard epic equipment that's a real problem, bard songs should stack with everything.

Shade
06-10-2012, 09:51 PM
So someone in some long past post said something nasty about "playing support characters"
It's not a long past thing. It's every day life of the forums.

I'm just informing you of the nature of these forums and how things are percieved by a lot of players. Not intended as a flame towards you at all. Sorry if you took it that way. Edited out the question i shouldnt of made.



Edit: And the whole "buff/nerf" idea is at best marginally relevant in a beta anyway. I'm not asking anything to be taken away from people on the live servers.
While I agree. You did specificly call it a nerf yourself, so i just followed your call on that.

I'd suggest a buff instead:
Reduce the cooldown to 6 seconds. The limitation should be how many bard songs you have, not a cooldown.

Dolphious
06-10-2012, 10:34 PM
It's not a long past thing. It's every day life of the forums.

I'm just informing you of the nature of these forums and how things are percieved by a lot of players. Not intended as a flame towards you at all. Sorry if you took it that way. Edited out the question i shouldnt of made.

Fair enough. I definitely consider Gildus to be support, and buffing is my first job. Though it's also important that I can do central jobs also, if somewhat sub-optimally, like DPS and healing. Still pretty irked about the displacement change, I keep that going on everyone (who doesn't torc) in harder quests, it's the only way I can keep up as the main healer.



While I agree. You did specificly call it a nerf yourself, so i just followed your call on that.

I'd suggest a buff instead:
Reduce the cooldown to 6 seconds. The limitation should be how many bard songs you have, not a cooldown.

Yeah, that would actually be a much better way of dealing with it.

I guess I thought the devs would think that was too strong, but upon further reflection I don't see why that would be the case if they already allow stacking. I really like how songs appear to be a limited resources after the update. Though I hopethat's taken into account when doing the enhancement pass. RIght now it's kind of a fun factoid that spellsingers run out of songs occationally and WC and virts don't, but that will be a big factor after the update.

If further testing confirms my suspicians of song shortages I'm definitely TRing into a Virtuoso, I was leaning towards it anyway, and this will push me way, way over the edge.

protokon
06-10-2012, 10:51 PM
Don't try to force your values upon others, especially by asking for nerfs. Thats just uncaring.


You truly live up to your legendary reputation.


How do I join your fan club?

jkm
06-11-2012, 12:02 AM
The problem with bards in this game is that any enhancement you give their buffs is multiplicative because of the insane abilities given to other classes. It is why Shade's "Support" build exists and why I soured on the class. The design is such that the first bard adds a ton to the party and the 2nd bard adds practically nothing.

The buffs need to be reworked so that they you can choose whether to give a "slight" buff to the party while taking a "major" self buff OR you can choose to give a moderate buff to the party and no self buffs. This supports both rolls and makes more than one bard in a party to be slightly more attractive.

Dolphious
06-11-2012, 12:20 AM
The problem with bards in this game is that any enhancement you give their buffs is multiplicative because of the insane abilities given to other classes. It is why Shade's "Support" build exists and why I soured on the class. The design is such that the first bard adds a ton to the party and the 2nd bard adds practically nothing.

The buffs need to be reworked so that they you can choose whether to give a "slight" buff to the party while taking a "major" self buff OR you can choose to give a moderate buff to the party and no self buffs. This supports both rolls and makes more than one bard in a party to be slightly more attractive.

I donno, DDO is overall pretty good about allowing a variety of party make ups, so I don't think it's a big problem that in the special case of bards one is great, and a second is pointless. It was sometimes frustrating before I had other capped toons, but I still wouldn't have wanted to change it. Being "the bard" is kind of part of the mojo of the class.

Shade
06-11-2012, 12:22 AM
You truly live up to your legendary reputation.


How do I join your fan club?

Subscribe to my youtube channel, link in my sig :)

MRMechMan
06-11-2012, 12:37 AM
Don't try to force your values upon others, especially by asking for nerfs. Thats just uncaring.

.

Heh. I must admit, that got a chuckle outta me.

legendlore
06-11-2012, 04:47 AM
This kind of got lost in the mess, but I"m pretty sure that the whole exceptional bonuses becoming competence bonuses thing is a dev confirmed bug. If inspire excellence doesn't stack with pretty standard epic equipment that's a real problem, bard songs should stack with everything.

yeah it has been rumored to been stated as a bug on one of the dev talk events (first one I think), haven't seen any confirmation on the forums since then though and that was quite a while ago.

And I agree bard buffs should stack, the change to ship buff was also really bad thought out and is likely because very few developers seem to even know what bards do and what abilities they have.


When this feat first was presented in closed beta I had the same concern and suggested that it be split into 2 songs, excellence of the mind and excellence of the body for physical and mental buffs so you had to choose one of each every time you sing.

I have since changed my mind though and think it's fine as is. If people were grumpy if you say no now to sing all songs in a row think how grumpy they would likely be when you sing +cha instead of int because your a cc bard and there's also a wizard in the party :P I know I'd do it every time, since cc is what makes my build fun to play.

There has also been some hints from Breca of big bard changes coming in heroic levels as well and hopefully if bards get to be a bit more self viable there will be some pressure taken away from all the buffing as well. As people may realize that it's not the sole reason the bard is in the party.

It's pretty funny though since if it only affected bards (and hence was a worse feat) players in general would likely think it was to good (compared to things like epic spell focus +1 DC). But since everything bards get others get many think it's okay since they basically see it as getting a free feat for their class.

Keybreaker
06-11-2012, 09:40 AM
The fact of the matter is, the only 2 man completions of LoB remain done by only ONE class. Favored Souls. I was perfectly 100% right in my take on the raid and what classs dominated it.

Ranged combat is also WAY OP!!! Rangers and Arcane Archers should be nerf'd IMMEDIATELY!!! If they can pretend to be FVS in a duo-LOB, it's MADNESS. WUT? They can duo MA as well? Nerf!


After our success with MA, we decided to give a try to LoB. That was definitely a lot more challanging than MA but somehow we managed to finish this one too.

Here is a few screenshots:

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq225/666Shatan666/ScreenShot00008.jpg

[2 more screenies snipped]


People just like to put words into my mouth ive never said, it happens when you get a large fan base.

It is said that triumphant Roman emperors and generals paraded around Rome had a slave whisper in their ear, "You are merely man." But you sir, you are a rockstar. Ney sir, you are a GOD! You remain as down-to-earth and as objective as ever.

Let's nerf ranged combat and AAs immediately!~

And buff Barbarians.

Even though you could count all the FVS in DDO who can solo all epic quests on one hand. Even though the number of FVS who've actually solo'd all epic quests is ONE... FVS are "clearly" OP.

No Barb can solo any epic! They are underpowered and MUST BE BUFFED!!!


Inspired by MaximusParthas and Teo on doing this on a melee. Just tooked this as a friendly competition. So i grabbed my barb and completed flawless and with no hirellings used.
It did took me abit more bieng solo but it was fun , the drow fight alone was around 10 mins i think lol.

Some Screenshots :

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1594/screenshot00086v.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/screenshot00086v.jpg/)

OMG! Nerf Barbs IMMEDIATELY!!!

Nerf all classes played by nix_vali!!! Obviously all his classes are OP. ONE player playing this class was able to solo/duo/shortman something... Think of the poor SUPPORT classes and people who need to play support toons!!!

Who will defend these slaves... I mean support toons? What champion of fluffers... I mean buffers will rise to their cause?!


Pretty much anytime anyone EVER says they enjoy playing a support character, they get massive hate and troll posts like crazy.

Even when I made a support bard build and posted it only for the benefit of some friends who specificly requested it (who later made it and loved it), the build as filled with 50+ replies of purely troll posts and hate. I would of just PM'd the build to them instead but PMs have a character limit.

A lot of people are stopping them. I've heard it from dozens of players, they quit the forums due to abuse of there playstyle. It's a fact.

And I'll be a spokeperson for whatever I like thankyou very much. I group with players like this on a constant basis, so I feel well qualified to speak on there be half.


Using sarcasm in that fashion is against the forum rules.

What is this sarcasm of which you speak?

fco-karatekid
06-13-2012, 07:43 AM
...What is this sarcasm of which you speak?

More importantly... what is this rule of which he speaks? 90% of my posts have sarcasm in them... I need to change my ways.

mourne
06-13-2012, 09:43 AM
OK so after reading the forums for a while now and posting a few times....thought I sling a few ...... things

The game is not linear. Changes of things, even small things, can drastically effect other things....(sorta the Adam Smith unseen hand thing) so just because some class or ability appears to "way OP'D" doesn't necessarily mean that in fact is the case. Just sayin

The class distinctions, meaning the superior class, or melee vs range vs caster vs divine vs arcane is really tiresome. Just play. If you don't want casters "owning" the content then don't group with them.

Support Class vs Others. In the end, we are all support classes unless we are soloing. So a bard brings some unique aspects to the party, if the party leader doesn't want a bard, then don't bring one in the party.

I play a bard Virtuoso as my main. I have a whacked Archmage, a thuggish Barb, and a Sorc etc etc, I have those characters so I can grp in raids when my guild needs them or someone else wants to play their bard....Mostly, I play my bard.

GIVE ME LOTS OF BUFFS!!! I care not how, the more I can do for the party the better!! Nerfing things is just poor planning and poor play testing. If folks find some sweet spot do to an ability that is put in the game, yeah team!! Don't take things away because some person on the forums has their "collective" panties in bunch.

In the end, just play. If you want melee's to rule, then don't group with casters.

Shade
06-13-2012, 12:10 PM
(2 man lob screenshot)

Has a favored soul in it. As I said.

Only other completion I saw also had a favored soul in it. May have had 2 of them. Thanks for confirming my point.

re: karatekid: Rule 1 of the guidelines.

Keybreaker
06-13-2012, 12:40 PM
DM: Roll a d20 to see if you hit.
Player: I roll a 1!
DM: You missed the Point.

mourne
06-13-2012, 02:31 PM
DM: Roll a d20 to see if you hit.
Player: I roll a 1!
DM: You missed the Point.

I await your genius.....

Carpone
06-13-2012, 04:01 PM
The fact of the matter is, the only 2 man completions of LoB remain done by only one class. Favored Souls. I was perfectly 100% right in my take on the raid and what classs dominated it.

People just like to put words into my mouth ive never said, it happens when you get a large fan base.
Why do you have a vendetta against Favored Souls?

The player behind one of those duo MA/LOB completions also solos epics on his barbarian for fun. Doesn't matter what class he plays, he dominates the game with it. Maybe you should ask him for some advice on how to play a barbarian.

wkavinsky
06-13-2012, 07:01 PM
you truly live up to your legendary reputation.


How do i join your fan club?

+1

Dolphious
06-14-2012, 10:37 AM
Why do you have a vendetta against Favored Souls?

The player behind one of those duo MA/LOB completions also solos epics on his barbarian for fun. Doesn't matter what class he plays, he dominates the game with it. Maybe you should ask him for some advice on how to play a barbarian.

Isn't there a whole epeen board for you guys to drop your pants and compare? Is it really necessary to spam completely unrelated threads with screenshots and commentary on your uberness?