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View Full Version : Give us something else to use our necro dc with then...



Ertay
06-08-2012, 05:40 PM
Ok, now that the word is out, aoe instantdeath is probably going to get nerfed one way or another, it's time to get creative. How about this: if you have to go through with the changes to necromancy, give us something to do with what we invested in while we wait for the haunting to go.

My suggestion would be fear/necromancy based cc/utility SLAs, probably varied by the form we are in. This would keep necromancy useful even if our haunted stacks are up, in fact, as a kicker, those could actually get *better* the more haunted stacks we have or even serve to reduce those haunted stacks quicker (as in +1 SLA dc per 2 stacks of haunted or something similar). This would also promote more group friendly play between wail uses and not have us run circles around even more mobs while the counter slowly ticks down...

From the top of my head, I'd suggest SLAs like archmages get them, ghoul touch for zombie form, charm for vampire, wraith could maybe get to phase out or something, and fear as the spell for lich form.
For all those to work though, a slight rework to fear effects to make enemies really cower in place without moving around would probably be in order.

TL DR: Fearing enemies through the haunting screams of their dead brethren? Sounds pretty epic to me.

edit: edited for boldness.

giggiddy
06-08-2012, 05:55 PM
Lol cuz we know how much melees love chasing feared mobs!

Maybe as a despair type effect where they are frozen in place paralyzed by fear... But that's sorta a mummy effect.

Or some sort of mantle we have that absorbs some spells automatically. Every lich has one.

HalfORCastrator
06-08-2012, 06:12 PM
I don't see the issue, in groups. Wail one room, mass hold/disco/web the next. Then Wail the third. All you need to do is...spec a bit of Enchantment with your PM. Revolutionary.

giggiddy
06-08-2012, 06:20 PM
I don't see the issue, in groups. Wail one room, mass hold/disco/web the next. Then Wail the third. All you need to do is...spec a bit of Enchantment with your PM. Revolutionary.

This is my plan :) mass holds and enchants on the ones who make their save.

I was only bummed that I couldn't wail a group till it was half dead. Completely a waste of spell points and everyone's time. A good group beats on the same mob at the same time to take it down faster... Sooo a Necro caster was supposed to wait to finger it lol.

Only change from how I normally play my pm is I don't gather the mobs and the. Circle-> wail.

And certainly will make farming for a bauble harder. I have one but my sor and cleric don't so I used to solo the quest. Then invite peeps for bauble chance and switch toons.

Not happening!

Ganolyn
06-08-2012, 06:23 PM
I swear the necro crowd won't be satisfied until Turbine gives them Create Undead with everlasting, unkillable summons that endlessly spam Disintegrate.

Your easy button is going bye-bye. Put on your big boy pants and get over it. Adapt! :p:D

Fefnir_2011
06-08-2012, 09:00 PM
I swear the necro crowd won't be satisfied until Turbine gives them Create Undead with everlasting, unkillable summons that endlessly spam Disintegrate.

Your easy button is going bye-bye. Put on your big boy pants and get over it. Adapt! :p:D

Do you even play a PM? Really, people need to quit posting about things they don't know about. Unless you have extensively played both a necromancy-based caster and a front line melee, you don't really understand the difference. Yeah, it's currently overpowered at end game. But, those who are in the "OP caster who needs to be nerfed group" put a lot of gear grind and TR grind into those toons, compared to how well melees work out-of-the-box. A balance needs to be struck, instead of wildly swinging the nerfhammer.

Ganolyn
06-08-2012, 09:24 PM
Do you even play a PM?

Nope. I don't like easy buttons. I know plenty of people who do play them though and I know what it takes to get good at one. I'm just of the opinion that hard content should be, well, hard and that no one should be able to dominate it. If you think pointing your finger at something and saying "die" is hard, then good for you. I don't agree. I'm not a loot grubber, I'm an adventurer, so I don't care if it takes PM's a little longer to finish a quest.

Fefnir_2011
06-08-2012, 09:59 PM
Nope. I don't like easy buttons. I know plenty of people who do play them though and I know what it takes to get good at one. I'm just of the opinion that hard content should be, well, hard and that no one should be able to dominate it. If you think pointing your finger at something and saying "die" is hard, then good for you. I don't agree. I'm not a loot grubber, I'm an adventurer, so I don't care if it takes PM's a little longer to finish a quest.

You don't just point your finger at something and say die. You juggle cooldowns, you debuff, you CC, you nuke, just like anyone else. It's probably one of the most gear-intensive grinds too, along with current AC tanks. You'd know that if you bothered to play the class instead of making assumptions.

giggiddy
06-08-2012, 09:59 PM
http://i.qkme.me/3pn71e.jpg

sweez
06-08-2012, 10:03 PM
do you even play a pm?




nope.
...
I know what it takes to get good at one.

<3

Ganolyn
06-08-2012, 10:17 PM
You don't just point your finger at something and say die. You juggle cooldowns, you debuff, you CC, you nuke, just like anyone else. It's probably one of the most gear-intensive grinds too, along with current AC tanks. You'd know that if you bothered to play the class instead of making assumptions.

I don't have to play a class to know what it is like to get good at one. I have eyes, I watch. I ask questions, I listen. I ask for gear links, I see. I look up information, I read. I made up my mind that PM's were probably going to get nerfed when I saw what they were capable of and didn't want to waste my time working on something that might turn out to be futile. If others were naive enough to think that it was going to last it isn't my problem. I've seen too many builds get nerfed to think anything too OP will last. When the dust finally settles I'll reevaluate and see if it is something I would like to play.

Hikup
06-08-2012, 10:23 PM
I look forward to joining groups on a pm, not casting a single instandeath just hit em with fear, the melees will feel so useful while they chase all the mobs around before the drop and /squelch. From most fun I've had playing ddo to griefer extraordinaire - good times.

Grace_ana
06-08-2012, 11:28 PM
I don't have to play a class to know what it is like to get good at one.

Yes, in fact you do. Watching, listening, reading, asking questions is all well and good, but until you actually play something it is not sufficient knowledge. I have been an excellent observer of many classes, but when I actually then step up to play that class I learn an enormous amount. And clearly, if you think that PMs just "point their finger and say die" and something dies, you really do not know a thing.

VorpalKnight
06-08-2012, 11:43 PM
Do you even play a PM? Really, people need to quit posting about things they don't know about. Unless you have extensively played both a necromancy-based caster and a front line melee, you don't really understand the difference. Yeah, it's currently overpowered at end game. But, those who are in the "OP caster who needs to be nerfed group" put a lot of gear grind and TR grind into those toons, compared to how well melees work out-of-the-box. A balance needs to be struck, instead of wildly swinging the nerfhammer.

No disrespect intended but Melee's put as much work into grinding their gear and depend more on it, I know to have my barb do competitive dps I had to grind a lot more than for my Wizard, and to a lesser extent sorc, and my Barb's dps doesn't come close to a good 1st life sorc and my kill count is nothing compared to a good 1st life Pale Master who just IK everything. You make it sounds like casters are completely trash and aren't op because they haven't tr, which is completely false, that's mostly just usually because a lot of those adventurer/champion casters are new players and have horrible gear and are not that familiar with the missions not having run it like 300 times.

Also doesn't matter how many times someone TR's, I TR'd some of my melees a few times, yet why are they not as powerful as casters? The class are just overpowered and where In need of some debuffing, not asking to be castrated mind you, but the new haunting change seems like a step in the right direction to me.



I look forward to joining groups on a pm, not casting a single instandeath just hit em with fear, the melees will feel so useful while they chase all the mobs around before the drop and /squelch. From most fun I've had playing ddo to griefer extraordinaire - good times.
*Doesn't run chasing mobs* *dances you with belt* *stealth's* /laugh /squelch

DarkForte
06-08-2012, 11:47 PM
You want to discuss nerfing a class that you don't even play? And think that's good enough?

Here's a thought: go make yourself a PM. Get to 20. Try soloing eCoF with your "easy button". You don't even have to tell me how that goes.

A PM has to keep juggling their different spells at all times, depending on what is in store for them: alternating between mass instakills, CC, mass debuffing, dot-nuking. Acquiring all the gear to be able to take a hit in epics after you get in the middle of a large mob you failed to wail while you're trying to hold them down. Keeping up the hages in the party. If you think PMs are simple as get to 20 -> wail -> mobs die -> solo epics -> PROFIT, try playing one. You might surprise yourself.

VorpalKnight
06-08-2012, 11:57 PM
You want to discuss nerfing a class that you don't even play? And think that's good enough?

Here's a thought: go make yourself a PM. Get to 20. Try soloing eCoF with your "easy button". You don't even have to tell me how that goes.

A PM has to keep juggling their different spells at all times, depending on what is in store for them: alternating between mass instakills, CC, mass debuffing, dot-nuking. Acquiring all the gear to be able to take a hit in epics after you get in the middle of a large mob you failed to wail while you're trying to hold them down. Keeping up the hages in the party. If you think PMs are simple as get to 20 -> wail -> mobs die -> solo epics -> PROFIT, try playing one. You might surprise yourself.


Try soloing eCoF with your melee ;)

DarkForte
06-09-2012, 12:04 AM
That's the point. BOTH will fail! Glad you understood it

Jaid314
06-09-2012, 12:20 AM
pale masters still get a nice big bucketload of immunities (and/or super-resistances now, i guess). they still get very strong passive self-healing (which is, in fact, getting stronger due to the fact that auras were never able to take metamagics anyways, and casting without metamagics is getting improved). they still get essentially free minor nukes. they still get a form that grants significantly increased toughness, including the ability to drink int yugoloth potions that will boost *all* of their DCs (and restore SP over time). they still get the boosts to DC from lich intelligence for every school of spells. they still have a lot of the good stuff that they always had. even before instakills become the best plan for epics, pale masters were a very solid, viable choice. they still are. they can still do all the stuff they could do way back when they could have an equal or potentially better DC than an archmage wizard in the archmage's chosen school.

really, if you're not totally clueless, your pale master should be able to do just fine. odds are good that if you actually did put a significant amount of effort into gearing your pale master to be some sort of super-special-awesome beast, that means by default your DCs in pretty near every other spell school are going to be at least passable.

(and on a side note, the absurdity of claiming that pale masters take a ton of gear to get to a point of effectiveness, but that melees can do so trivially, is making it really hard not to just laugh. seriously? you're claiming that the melee grind is nonexistant? yeah, sure. whatever. you keep telling yourself that. gloves of the claw? grows on trees. epic abishai set? rains from the sky. epic marilith chain? handed out under a sign that reads "free t-shirts" when you go to your trainer to take level 20. ToD rings? dime a dozen. or so the bunch of you that are complaining how easy of a time melees have must think, because i can't for the life of me imagine how else you could possibly think that gearing up a melee is a trivial process...)

DarkForte
06-09-2012, 12:31 AM
Anatoria,

I don't think anyone's claiming that PMs are useless now. Just that the CORE FEATURE of the PrE - and one that provides a lot of fun to PM players - is reduced to uselessness. Of course my PM will still be very effective as a hold/web-bot, which he is right now in quests with lots of orange-nameds/high-fort mobs. Heck, I'll still be able to pretend I have FoD by FtSing low-fort mobs. That is not, however what I built him to do. I built him to kill stuff. I built him to say a word and have enemies fall at his feet lifeless. The nerf is shifting PMs from their core necromancy focus.

A warforged enchantment-AM will have pretty much the same focus as a PM: pure crowd control. This, along with the nuking nerf, reduces diversity and pidgeonholes wizards into the CC corner.

On another note, I think you seem to have the gearing issue backwards: people have been calling pale master an 'easy button' as if no effort was needed to gear an arcane for epic play, as if you could take your fresh 20 undergeared wizard and start putting everyone else in your party in their corners crying out of fear and shame. The fact that people emphasize the difficulty in gearing up a caster is just in response to the 'easy-button' claim. No one is claiming that melees are easier to gear. We just mean that gearing a caster is no walk in the park either.

Ganolyn
06-09-2012, 12:41 AM
Yes, in fact you do.

No, in fact you do. People learn in different ways. Just because you have to play something to learn it doesn't mean everyone has to. Speaking to good, experienced players is all I really need to learn what class is all about. The only thing I need practice in when I roll one up is to remember where I put everything on my hotbars for easy access. I've played casters and I have played melees. Juggling and waiting for cooldowns is part of the game, not just part of playing a PM. This is just a video game, don't try and come off like it's neuroscience or something.





Here's a thought: go make yourself a PM. Get to 20. Try soloing eCoF with your "easy button". You don't even have to tell me how that goes.

Good. No class should be able to solo epics. Any epics. All your saying is that the hardest content is hard and you can't easy button through it. Good!

DarkForte
06-09-2012, 12:46 AM
Speaking to good, experienced players is all I really need to learn what class is all about.

And this is where the post's credibility is lost. Talking to people who have different backgrounds and different psychological profiles and everything else won't give you the knowledge you'd have from experience. It's like grabbing 12 people, making them watch Shade's LoB guide and saying that they have heard the tricks of the trade from one of the most experienced players in the game, and that, henceforth, they should do just fine in eLoB! It is a foolish fallacy.

Havok.cry
06-09-2012, 12:56 AM
This thread has the drama I was looking for. Thanks you guys! :)

Ganolyn
06-09-2012, 01:00 AM
On another note, I think you seem to have the gearing issue backwards: people have been calling pale master an 'easy button' as if no effort was needed to gear an arcane for epic play, as if you could take your fresh 20 undergeared wizard and start putting everyone else in your party in their corners crying out of fear and shame. The fact that people emphasize the difficulty in gearing up a caster is just in response to the 'easy-button' claim. No one is claiming that melees are easier to gear. We just mean that gearing a caster is no walk in the park either.


I know this wasn't directed at me, but I have never claimed gearing up anything for epic play was a cake walk. If people want to get on the Sisyphus treadmill that is their choice, but what exactly are you doing that grind for anyway, pleasure? You do it to make the game easier for yourself; so you can dominate the content in order to get your rare shiny easier. People don't strive for good enough, they strive for as close to 100% return as possible. Players get kicked out of groups for not being up to snuff because failure is not an option for many folks. To them, failure means they wasted their time, regardless of how much fun it might have been just to try. If you make a game into a job, it will never bring much pleasure unless you always succeed. Well geared uber toons can dominate in about 95% of the content, but because of the rarity of certain drops and lockout timers all they care about is that last 5% going flawlessly.

Ganolyn
06-09-2012, 01:02 AM
And this is where the post's credibility is lost.


Since you don't know me or what my capabilities are I will give this statement all the consideration it deserves.

Clatterfist
06-09-2012, 02:14 AM
Necromancy is quite well stocked for debuffs and other effects, as spell schools go...there just needs to be a little bit more of an incentive to actually cast spells like Ghoul's Touch and Symbol of Weakness. Not having instakill as a better solution is part of that, making the spells available as SLAs could be another part of it...but it'd probably be better just to make these spells more attractive to cast from your actual slots. Reducing the cost of Heighten would be a good start.

DarkForte
06-09-2012, 02:25 AM
Wait... you want us to use the bad spells on our list, and your solution is to get rid of all the better spells?

Grace_ana
06-09-2012, 03:07 AM
Since you don't know me or what my capabilities are I will give this statement all the consideration it deserves.

You just don't know how special he is!!!!


Wait... you want us to use the bad spells on our list, and your solution is to get rid of all the better spells?

From now on, all melee can only use a Club of the Holy Flame to beat on epic mobs until they are below 50% health.

Clatterfist
06-09-2012, 03:10 AM
Instant kill spells overshadow plenty of decent spells as well as "bad" spells; it's the problem with effects that deal damage or debuff being based on the same save as effects that just kill the monster dead. I would like there to be more of a reason to use spells like Symbol of Weakness, or even stuff like Slow... I don't want instant death magic to go away entirely though. Hard to Kill was taking things too far, but I don't hate the idea of Haunting.

I'd also like any of the spells that are outright "bad" to be improved, and for more spells to be added for all schools. Illusion and Transmutation in particular could be really fun to play if they would include just a few more options: but no amount of options is going to help if the status quo is that anything that forces a save and doesn't result in death is just a poor relation. Polymorph Other would be a fun spell for them to add, but not if you could have just insta-killed whatever you turned into a rat (or whatever).

Faent
06-09-2012, 04:38 AM
When admitted know-nothings opine about something they've admitted they know nothing about, they should be ignored.

Ungood
06-09-2012, 08:30 AM
Do you even play a PM? Really, people need to quit posting about things they don't know about. Unless you have extensively played both a necromancy-based caster and a front line melee, you don't really understand the difference. Yeah, it's currently overpowered at end game. But, those who are in the "OP caster who needs to be nerfed group" put a lot of gear grind and TR grind into those toons, compared to how well melees work out-of-the-box. A balance needs to be struck, instead of wildly swinging the nerfhammer.

I was going to respond to this post but then I read the following post and it said pretty much everything I was going to say anyway.


No disrespect intended but Melee's put as much work into grinding their gear and depend more on it, I know to have my barb do competitive dps I had to grind a lot more than for my Wizard, and to a lesser extent sorc, and my Barb's dps doesn't come close to a good 1st life sorc and my kill count is nothing compared to a good 1st life Pale Master who just IK everything. You make it sounds like casters are completely trash and aren't op because they haven't tr, which is completely false, that's mostly just usually because a lot of those adventurer/champion casters are new players and have horrible gear and are not that familiar with the missions not having run it like 300 times.

Also doesn't matter how many times someone TR's, I TR'd some of my melees a few times, yet why are they not as powerful as casters? The class are just overpowered and where In need of some debuffing, not asking to be castrated mind you, but the new haunting change seems like a step in the right direction to me.

This is so true.

And I don't know about you, I for one am getting pretty tired of reading some post by someone who plays a caster ranting about how easy melee have it, when in reality they have never had to build a top end or even a self sufficient melee.

Vordax
06-09-2012, 09:57 AM
And I don't know about you, I for one am getting pretty tired of reading some post by someone who plays a caster ranting about how easy melee have it, when in reality they have never had to build a top end or even a self sufficient melee.

I built a top end melee, then U5 hit and killed it.

Then I built a top end PM, and now U14 will hit and kill it.

I guess I should have just went barb and learned how to hold my right mouse button down.

Jaid314
06-09-2012, 12:03 PM
Anatoria,

I don't think anyone's claiming that PMs are useless now. Just that the CORE FEATURE of the PrE - and one that provides a lot of fun to PM players - is reduced to uselessness. Of course my PM will still be very effective as a hold/web-bot, which he is right now in quests with lots of orange-nameds/high-fort mobs. Heck, I'll still be able to pretend I have FoD by FtSing low-fort mobs. That is not, however what I built him to do. I built him to kill stuff. I built him to say a word and have enemies fall at his feet lifeless. The nerf is shifting PMs from their core necromancy focus.

A warforged enchantment-AM will have pretty much the same focus as a PM: pure crowd control. This, along with the nuking nerf, reduces diversity and pidgeonholes wizards into the CC corner.

On another note, I think you seem to have the gearing issue backwards: people have been calling pale master an 'easy button' as if no effort was needed to gear an arcane for epic play, as if you could take your fresh 20 undergeared wizard and start putting everyone else in your party in their corners crying out of fear and shame. The fact that people emphasize the difficulty in gearing up a caster is just in response to the 'easy-button' claim. No one is claiming that melees are easier to gear. We just mean that gearing a caster is no walk in the park either.

you seem to be a little behind the times. you'll still get to use your instakills. you'll probably want to ditch your single-target stuff, mind you, since haunting (last i heard, though to be fair i didn't read the whole thread) operates per successful spell, not per killed monster, meaning you get hit just as hard for a FoD as for a CoD or a WotB. you'll have to use them a little less often, though how much less often will depend on your gear (if you really are one of those ridiculous DC 45 casters, you'll probably be able to use stuff more often, at least in bursts; if you're one of the more common DC 39ish casters, which are not hard to make, you'll probably have to be careful to keep off the haunting timer entirely)

and no, casters don't have nearly as high of a gear requirement to be effective as compared to melees. yes, to be that ridiculous DC 45 caster, you need some pretty nice gear. to get DC 39, which is in fact fairly effective (in fact, back in the day it used to be the benchmark for whether or not your were worthy of epics, and that was back when "epics" meant the desert and VoN, which are generally much harder than the newer epics) especially if you take the time to apply some debuffs. on my DC 39 pale masters (ie decently geared, but not amazingly), i can go into most epics and do quite well. oh, there's parts where i'm glad to have melees along, certainly, but even with "only" DC 39, a wail of the banshee will generally kill 2-3 enemies in a group of 4-5, a mass hold will usually land (especially if you open with a will save debuff), a finger of death will land more often than not, and so forth.

and all the while, my spell DPS is still going to be quite solid with just a few action points invested and some basic easy-to-acquire gear (i do have an eardweller, but generally don't use it because it simply isn't that much of an increase; i do use it on occasion when i'm in a rush to deal multiple damage types and i don't have time to hit all my ToD belts)

all the screaming from people who play casters over this expansion is getting kinda old. your pale master will do just fine. it was an effective build before instakills worked in epics. it will continue to be an effective build even if the effectiveness of instakills in epics are reduced. it likely won't even require much of a change, in all probability your secondary school of focus (which you should have had all along anyways, for mobs immune to instakills) won't even have to change to keep your effectiveness. you probably won't even need a feat swap, never mind a reincarnation, to adjust. frankly, i wouldn't be surprised if you don't even need an enhancement reset.

TheHolyDarkness
06-09-2012, 12:13 PM
Speaking as an arcane with a DC 39...

I'm laughing my hat off to all this drama from the Pale Master entitlement class. Its about time it was brought back to line. I actually MISSED the days when casters were SUPPORT with crowd control, as is right and proper!

Please, we can still scroll farm with this haunting compromise. All this do0m is going to result in zilch ragequits. There have been far, far, FAR more class busting nerfs than this (thinking about tempest rangers specifically).

Its all hot air. The devs are taking a step in the right direction. I tire of PMs standing as OVERPOWERED gods.

As yes. They are overpowered. It is an easy button. That was inevitably was subject to rebalance.

And to that my caster is thankful.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

munificence
06-09-2012, 12:42 PM
Speaking as an arcane with a DC 39...

Wow, a whole 39 necro DC... you really know a lot about the easy button... /sarcasm

TheHolyDarkness
06-09-2012, 12:50 PM
Uh huh. Attack my credibility, and not the fact that DC 45 empirically makes you overpowered compared to the gear grind melees go through.

This nerf is justified. I have merely a DC 39, and even I find it way too easy to solo. If anything, I have more credibility about this "easy button." Because last I checked, my 82 Str Barbarian who rocks an eAntique and set bonuses from Fabricators, eAbishi, and the Encrusted Ring, STILL can't do what a DC 39 necro can do.

So thank you for pointing that out.

~Out~

DarkForte
06-09-2012, 01:10 PM
you seem to be a little behind the times. you'll still get to use your instakills. you'll probably want to ditch your single-target stuff, mind you, since haunting (last i heard, though to be fair i didn't read the whole thread) operates per successful spell, not per killed monster, meaning you get hit just as hard for a FoD as for a CoD or a WotB. you'll have to use them a little less often, though how much less often will depend on your gear (if you really are one of those ridiculous DC 45 casters, you'll probably be able to use stuff more often, at least in bursts; if you're one of the more common DC 39ish casters, which are not hard to make, you'll probably have to be careful to keep off the haunting timer entirely)

and no, casters don't have nearly as high of a gear requirement to be effective as compared to melees. yes, to be that ridiculous DC 45 caster, you need some pretty nice gear. to get DC 39, which is in fact fairly effective (in fact, back in the day it used to be the benchmark for whether or not your were worthy of epics, and that was back when "epics" meant the desert and VoN, which are generally much harder than the newer epics) especially if you take the time to apply some debuffs. on my DC 39 pale masters (ie decently geared, but not amazingly), i can go into most epics and do quite well. oh, there's parts where i'm glad to have melees along, certainly, but even with "only" DC 39, a wail of the banshee will generally kill 2-3 enemies in a group of 4-5, a mass hold will usually land (especially if you open with a will save debuff), a finger of death will land more often than not, and so forth.

and all the while, my spell DPS is still going to be quite solid with just a few action points invested and some basic easy-to-acquire gear (i do have an eardweller, but generally don't use it because it simply isn't that much of an increase; i do use it on occasion when i'm in a rush to deal multiple damage types and i don't have time to hit all my ToD belts)

all the screaming from people who play casters over this expansion is getting kinda old. your pale master will do just fine. it was an effective build before instakills worked in epics. it will continue to be an effective build even if the effectiveness of instakills in epics are reduced. it likely won't even require much of a change, in all probability your secondary school of focus (which you should have had all along anyways, for mobs immune to instakills) won't even have to change to keep your effectiveness. you probably won't even need a feat swap, never mind a reincarnation, to adjust. frankly, i wouldn't be surprised if you don't even need an enhancement reset.

I actually agree with you on most of these counts. However, Eladrin explicitly stated that it operates on a per-mob basis, which is much worse than what you envisioned. In this state, killing 5 mobs with your wail sets you back by 10 DC for more than a minute. I sincerely don't imagine you having any success wailing with a 33 DC when it comes off cooldown.

I have the option to TR my DC 42 PM into a PM again to get a 44 DC on necro (I'll still be at 42 enchantment, so even with the old-school epic ward, I'd still be very effective). The question is, why bother striving for better chance at instakills just to get nerfed even further and have to wait even more between casts? The effect of haunting is that if I wail a whole mob of 6/7 enemies, I'll have to wait much more than the PM that only hit 2 or 3 before being back to full effectiveness. This is bad design, as it punishes you for being effective. From a philosophical standpoint, I'd rather have the epic ward back than be punished for optimizing to play the game by its rules.

Faent
06-09-2012, 02:42 PM
It's worth noting that you can estimate the cap on instakills per/minute this change imposes. It's easy to calculate the number of instakills per minute you can acheive at your max Necro DC. It's one every fifteen seconds. You can get higher than this by trying to cast at lower than your max Necro DC. It's hard to calculate this, but I estimate that with a lot of effort and timing, you could get it down to one every ten seconds. The higher your DC, the better you can operate at sub-optimal DC levels, but it's not easy.

Thus Eladrin's proposal is effectively imposing a cap on the amount of instakills a well-geared arcane can generate at around something like six per minute. It's going to be more like four per minute for most players. That sounds like Necromancy, doesn't it?

Ungood
06-09-2012, 02:44 PM
I built a top end melee, then U5 hit and killed it.

Then I built a top end PM, and now U14 will hit and kill it.

I guess I should have just went barb and learned how to hold my right mouse button down.

The last line of your post makes me disbelieve the first. And anyone who has made or played a end game melee, knows why. Actually, anyone that has played a Barb past Krothos would see you have no idea what you are talking about, which makes you exactly the demographic that I was addressing in the post you quoted. Thanks for being the example.

Vordax
06-09-2012, 04:07 PM
The last line of your post makes me disbelieve the first. And anyone who has made or played a end game melee, knows why. Actually, anyone that has played a Barb past Krothos would see you have no idea what you are talking about, which makes you exactly the demographic that I was addressing in the post you quoted. Thanks for being the example.

I played a barb to 12 (now a bank toon, still has crit rage too), and on my completionist I think I got to 7 barb (the rest fighter/ranger). I find barbs boring, what I had was a 2WF melee (nerfed into obsolescence in u5), and yes they aren't just hold the right mouse button down, but they are a whole lot closer to that then a wizard.

Everyone keeps saying that pale masters cycle through 3 spells, thats a bunch of BS, I use the whole gamut of spells. Its just those 3 spells are the bread and butter of a PM, and with the proposed changes there is no reason to stay PM.

Ungood
06-09-2012, 06:12 PM
I played a barb to 12 (now a bank toon, still has crit rage too), and on my completionist I think I got to 7 barb (the rest fighter/ranger). I find barbs boring, what I had was a 2WF melee (nerfed into obsolescence in u5), and yes they aren't just hold the right mouse button down, but they are a whole lot closer to that then a wizard.

Everyone keeps saying that pale masters cycle through 3 spells, thats a bunch of BS, I use the whole gamut of spells. Its just those 3 spells are the bread and butter of a PM, and with the proposed changes there is no reason to stay PM.

The second part of your post is getting upset about people doing to Pale Masters what you just did to barbs.

If you find something wrong, like making erroneous broad base accusations about a class, or how easy it is, then you should not be a contributor to such an antic, or else you have no justification to be outraged watching others do what you are doing.

Pale Masters have been paraded around as one trick ponies since their inception, and you have got to admit, given the countless posts and outcries I have read so far about those "3 spells" getting nerfed now it does seem like that is all they ever were.

I felt the same way most of the outrage posts I am reading now, during the FW nerf, and subsequent Evocation SLA nerf, I was upset and first I banked my Wizard, then I TRed into a PM. But, the changes changed the way I play the game, and it helped not get too attached to a single play style, I no longer depend on 3 easy button spells to win any quest. You might hate the changes, you might learn to love them, you might even never get over them, but they will happen, and now would be a great time to look into how to overcome them as opposed to just fussing about them.

inggold
06-09-2012, 09:03 PM
The second part of your post is getting upset about people doing to Pale Masters what you just did to barbs.

If you find something wrong, like making erroneous broad base accusations about a class, or how easy it is, then you should not be a contributor to such an antic, or else you have no justification to be outraged watching others do what you are doing.

Pale Masters have been paraded around as one trick ponies since their inception, and you have got to admit, given the countless posts and outcries I have read so far about those "3 spells" getting nerfed now it does seem like that is all they ever were.

I felt the same way most of the outrage posts I am reading now, during the FW nerf, and subsequent Evocation SLA nerf, I was upset and first I banked my Wizard, then I TRed into a PM. But, the changes changed the way I play the game, and it helped not get too attached to a single play style, I no longer depend on 3 easy button spells to win any quest. You might hate the changes, you might learn to love them, you might even never get over them, but they will happen, and now would be a great time to look into how to overcome them as opposed to just fussing about them.

Come now, the sheer volume of full ****** DPS barbs is a little hard to refute. Doesn't make it the best thing, but don't preetend it isnt there, and don't pretend that the shortcomings of making such a toon don't contribute to the current outcry.


No, Pale masters aren't and shouldn't be 3 button trick ponies. They should be adequate in CC, in providing group buffs, and in some elemental damage for bosses. Their bread and butter offense, however, often rests upon necromancy and insta-kills, and these changes largely cripple that.

It is awfully funny, by the way, that everyone is focusing on only Pale Masters when they complain about their melee not getting a shot. Favored Souls and Clerics are just as dependant on necromancy for offense. Have fun getting an already scarce healer for your melee when this all goes live.

PopeJual
06-09-2012, 11:06 PM
all the screaming from people who play casters over this expansion is getting kinda old. your pale master will do just fine. it was an effective build before instakills worked in epics. it will continue to be an effective build even if the effectiveness of instakills in epics are reduced. it likely won't even require much of a change, in all probability your secondary school of focus (which you should have had all along anyways, for mobs immune to instakills) won't even have to change to keep your effectiveness. you probably won't even need a feat swap, never mind a reincarnation, to adjust. frankly, i wouldn't be surprised if you don't even need an enhancement reset.

(1) My Pale Master was effective in parties in Epics when Epic enemies were 100% immune to death spells. He was just boring as hell to play in those quests.

(2) Melee are complaining that Epics are boring to play now because they feel like they're just cheerleaders for the PM that gets most of the kills.

Both of those situations are bad.


The reason why there is so much fuss over the two proposed changes is that both of them are terrible changes that will make the game significantly less fun for casters. WHY MAKE A CHANGE LIKE THAT WHEN THERE ARE ALREADY SEVERAL GOOD OPTIONS FOR FIXING PROBLEM (2) THAT WON'T LEAD TO LESS FUN?

There are lots and lots of good suggestions in both the Hard to Kill thread and in the Haunting thread and the best of them are just minor tweaks to the variety of enemies in various quests and small AI changes that will make the quests more challenging and interesting for *everyone* instead of just de-powering one group.

Greater variety of enemies that are resistant to death spells (Drow, Golems, Undead, Warforged)
Enemy casters that throw out Deathward/Mass Deathward as their first action
Enemies that don't bunch up quite so much
Archers

There are many of ways that Turbine could fix this problem with a scalpel instead of breaking out a greatclub in response to the perceived problem.

Jaid314
06-10-2012, 12:15 AM
Greater variety of enemies that are resistant to death spells (Drow, Golems, Undead, Warforged)
Enemy casters that throw out Deathward/Mass Deathward as their first action
Enemies that don't bunch up quite so much
Archers

There are many of ways that Turbine could fix this problem with a scalpel instead of breaking out a greatclub in response to the perceived problem.

so, you want them to:

- be restricted to having to put those mobs in every quest, regardless of flavor, logic, etc. also redesign every quest that doesn't currently have those things.
- make death effects completely useless for anyone who doesn't have wild west gunslinger reflexes and a fast connection instead of making them equal value for everyone.
- have melee mobs... what... not melee stuff? just stand around *not* trying to kill people?
- include more pathetic enemies that deal insignificant damage so people can charge up from their torc/conop while otherwise ignoring the enemies in the quest

azrael4h
06-10-2012, 02:39 AM
so, you want them to:

- be restricted to having to put those mobs in every quest, regardless of flavor, logic, etc. also redesign every quest that doesn't currently have those things.
Or you know, they could simply have a mob cast mass spell resistance at an appropriate caster level, approximating Drow SR.



- make death effects completely useless for anyone who doesn't have wild west gunslinger reflexes and a fast connection instead of making them equal value for everyone.

Or you could make casters use debuffs like Disjunction and Greater Dispel, so they could use their insta-kills, or have the Ranger Manyshot the divine mob to death before hand, or whatever. Which, in turn, gives more options to the players to try out, vs blanket immunities, or proxy immunity, which gives only one option.


- have melee mobs... what... not melee stuff? just stand around *not* trying to kill people?
Or maybe they could simply not jump in a massive dog pile, and say "Hi, Mass Hold Pls!". If those same melee mobs scattered after initially getting the mass buffs, preventing either Wail or (horrors for you, since you can only function in this way) Mass Hold from wiping them out, then targeting the casters first, players would have to adjust their own tactics to compensate.


- include more pathetic enemies that deal insignificant damage so people can charge up from their torc/conop while otherwise ignoring the enemies in the quest

Or they could give those archers some of the abilities of a PC Archer, like Slaying arrows. Hard to Torc up against a 500 point hit. Adjusting the targeting so they don't target the main-line casters, instead the melees and support classes, preventing the practice of "torcing up", which rarely has time to happen in a group. Solo play is irrelevant.

BTW, I've coded such an AI before. Someone paid to do so should be able to as well. And I know full well Turbine has some capable coders, even if they never bother fixing any bugs.

psi0nix
06-10-2012, 02:47 AM
Love those posts " I know nothing about the class having never played it, but i know everything about it cause I read something somewhere".

Why ?

Simply put, WHY ? =- HOW does SOMEONE ELSE having a toon capable of something make the game "less fun" for you ?

It does not, it simply cannot, again: Do you play permadeath ? - *the answer here is always "no" for some reason ... hmmmmm.


SO you want challenge ! , you want the game to be Hard ! , no no no, you want the game to be hard for OTHERS, not yourself, otherwise you would be playing permadeath.

But the way it's heading you'll get your nerfs, and you'll also get your empty servers, enjoy that eh .. . .

meathook2012
06-10-2012, 02:57 AM
Or they could give those archers some of the abilities of a PC Archer, like Slaying arrows. Hard to Torc up against a 500 point hit. Adjusting the targeting so they don't target the main-line casters, instead the melees and support classes, preventing the practice of "torcing up", which rarely has time to happen in a group. Solo play is irrelevant.

Then give our rangers a ranged hamstring.

Fefnir_2011
06-10-2012, 09:22 AM
In reply to the topic title: Give us our undead legions.

Take that stupid Pale Master pet and make him as good as the arti dog. Give him the hotbar, too. Make it so that ALL undead we create are controlled from this one hotbar. Then, add in a spell from PnP.



Animate Dead
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: One or more corpses touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No


This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.

The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.)

Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)

The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.

In order to avoid making persisent corpses of monsters selectable, I think it would be just as fine to turn this into a instakill spell that only works when the target is under 25% health. Will save or be slain and rise again as an undead created to serve your master.

There's also rules to allow for creations of Wraith, Mummy, Ghoul, Spectre, Shadow, Morhg, Ghast, Vampire, Wight, and Ghost undead, with penalties to your Spellcraft (in the case of the modification I suggest, a DC penalty) depending on the complexity of the type of undead.

I think Pale Masters should gain this spell, along with Create Undead and perhaps some other undead spell, as an SLA. It would shift the focus of the PrE away from instakills, which are unbalancing, and towards something that's still enjoyable to play.

I imagine the playstyle of the Pale Master would shift to: Walk into a dungeon and beat the first monster you see down into range for Animate Dead. Slowly steamroll through, gaining momentum with each death. In fact, if Haunting is going to go into effect, maybe every -DC you get from Haunting could be added to effects like this. :D

sephiroth1084
06-10-2012, 12:13 PM
I agree with the premise of the OP and would like to see at least one higher level (7, 8 or 9) Necromancy spell that causes Despair (a la mummies), a fear effect that prevents movement, lowers saves (like Shaken), but doesn't cause the Helpless condition. This should possibly also deal a big chunk of negative energy damage.

Also, provide an AoE version of Necrotic Ray at level 9.