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Eladrin
06-08-2012, 03:27 PM
See our planned changes here, which are dramatically different from what is described below. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4515673#post4515673)


---

Thank you for the feedback on the Hard to Kill buff. We're planning on making changes to it based on your comments.

Instant death effects are a powerful tool that are difficult to strike perfect balance with. We've wavered over time from completely unusable (old Epic blanket Death Wards) to excessively strong (the current live situation). When they're completely unusable, that's a bad thing because it decreases the number of options you have to deal with encounters. When they're too strong, they likewise decrease the number of viable options that exist, and can dramatically reduce the enjoyment of other characters in your party.

Hard to Kill was intended to be a system that would put some restrictions on death spells, dropping once the enemy was reduced to half health, in an attempt to promote teamwork between casters and the rest of the party. We intended for this to turn death spells into an "execute" sort of mechanic - the party could take the monster down to half health, and then a Pale Master (or other caster) could finish it off.

The system turned out to be too restrictive, and we're planning on making changes to it.

In the Hard to Kill thread, there was a suggestion to use a system similar to the change we made to Saves vs. Poison. We considered this internally - giving players and monsters a bonus to Saves vs. Death Magic* (but not physical death effects like Assassinate) if they were at high health, and a penalty if they were low on health (on death's door!) This would not have included the "don't fail saves on a natural 1". Monsters on different difficulty settings would have had different save bonuses.

This would have kept the desired "let people do something in fights, prep monsters with Improved Sunder, and stuff like that", but we decided that it would have excessively harmed casters with low to middling DC's, who would go from being able to occasionally land a death effect to ending up in a situation pretty similar to the original Hard to Kill.

We want you to be able to have the "moment" of killing a bunch of creatures with a death spell, but don't want to leave the rest of the party with little to do. We want to control how often you're clearing rooms of all enemies with a few quick casts of a spell, but don't want to have even longer cooldowns (which again unfairly harm weaker casters the most, since their death effects are less likely to actually stick). We realized that the key was to let you use your death effects, but apply restrictions only when they're used successfully.

Our current idea is as follows:

When a death spell successfully kills one or more targets, the caster acquires a debuff called "Haunting" for each target killed, for a short period of time.

We're still working out details, but right now, Haunting is a stacking debuff that lasts 15 seconds and applies a -2 penalty to Death Magic save DC's. It decrements by 1 stack whenever the timer runs out.

We may consider a small buff on Hard/Elite/Epic Hard/Epic Elite difficulties to Saves vs. Death Magic for players and monsters at full or very high health, as well as a penalty at very low health, but at much smaller numbers than we were considering previously, when that was considered as a standalone system prior to the implementation of Hard to Kill.

This system essentially would create a "soft cooldown" that is triggered primarily by mass death effects, but still lets a caster Finger of Death a creature or two in fights. It has no effect unless you succeed, so weaker casters aren't harmed by it, and in emergencies even if your Haunted stack is high, Power Word: Kill can still strike down an enemy. (Its effectiveness is not reduced because it doesn't have a saving throw.)

Since your cooldowns wouldn't be longer than they are now, it would be up to you whether you wanted to chain death effects together, debuff opponents with spells like Energy Drain or work with a character with Improved Sunder to overcome the Haunting, or save your Wail for strategic moments when it will have the biggest effect.

We're still working out the details on this, and will then send it on to the engineers. Let us know what you think! Suggestions for improvement are welcome.

* I love making first edition references.

Blank_Zero
06-08-2012, 03:31 PM
It's a good start, but getting a debuff for *EVERY SINGLE MOB KILLED* might be a bit excessive.

Also, a cooldown like that, with only 1 tick coming off every 15 seconds might make some people a bit off, considering we've already had a HUGE increase to Wail of the Banshee recently.

Edit: Also, Is there no hard cap? That right there makes it a bit excessive.

Tid12
06-08-2012, 03:31 PM
Will rogues and monks be unaffected by this? Their abilies kills 1-2 mobs and aren't overpowered as Aoe necro spells.

Ape_Man
06-08-2012, 03:32 PM
I kinda get it . . . so this "haunting" only affect my CoD and wail but my FoD stays as it?

EDIT: got it, read it again.

So this would only go in affect Epic H and E?

B0ltdrag0n
06-08-2012, 03:35 PM
Harms Circle of Death and Wail, without unfairily harming Finger/Destruction/Implosion.

Gives a scalar penalty so thatthose who are max geared with a ton of past lives can reasonably work with it without unfairly punishing those that are not full max on their DC's.


I like it.

My only suggestion are:
to make the debuff -1 Death effect DC for each stack,
remove the idea of increasing monster saves at all,
Make the Timer 10 seconds per kill and/or make sure it goes away on rest at a shrine.

With that in mind, I see this as a fairly balance debuff.


Edit: Good point raised above. Please only implement this on Epic Hard and Epic Elite.

Ganolyn
06-08-2012, 03:37 PM
I don't know about the DOOOOoooooooOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!11!1!!!1!!1!! sayers, but this sounds like a good compromise to me. Nobody should be sweeping through dungeons like a broom. This will make timing important and will give the other people in the party a chance to protect the mage while he/she/they recharge their batteries. With good timing and several mages, there probably won't even be a need for that.

danotmano1998
06-08-2012, 03:38 PM
This is about 1000 times better than the initial proposal IF IT IS IMPLEMENTED IN EPIC HARD/ELITES.

Sounds like a decent start.

Cauthey
06-08-2012, 03:39 PM
1) Thank you for coming to the communities with a response to all of our feedback (and for listening to our feedback).

2) Bravo! I like the idea. Needs a hard "cap" ceiling for the penalty, but I think that this is a terrific solution.


Personally, I love it when you guys introduce well designed dynamics to meet your goals that ALSO address community concerns. BRAVO, indeed! :D

DrunkenBuddha
06-08-2012, 03:39 PM
Interesting. Mostly I want to thank you for acknowledging that this was an area of concern.

Barazon
06-08-2012, 03:40 PM
So your compromise is that, instead of screwing over instakills in epic content, you're going to do so in all content?

Fefnir_2011
06-08-2012, 03:40 PM
Seeing as how the purpose of this buff is to prevent instakilling PCs from running gleefully through quests and killing it all at the end, what if this was a buff that Epic Hard/Elite monsters gave as an AoE to each other? Something like:

Whenever 5 or more monsters are within a certain radius of each other, a bonus to equal to the number of monsters is given to all such monsters to their Fortitude saves against death effects. However, pack mentality is bad at making decisions, so a -2 to will saves versus enchantments also applies.

it would still scale, so that say maybe the highest DCs wizards in the game could instakill a group of 7 or 8 instead of having to kill in 5s. However, it would encourage parties to group up a certain number of mobs and pare them down to a number the caster can handle, allowing everyone to participate equally.

And if you want to give further disincentive to soloing Epic quests on these difficulties, you could add a buff to damage and to-hit, meaning that any wizard looking to round up a dungeon could end up getting eaten alive before they can even get their spell off.



Regardless, this Haunting seems like a pretty fair compromise, as long as the cool down for it isn't too long. Like you said, gotta walk that fine line between instakills being useless or completely overpowering.

stainer
06-08-2012, 03:41 PM
Would this impact an arcanes ability to solo?

Beethoven
06-08-2012, 03:41 PM
I sort of like it.

Suffering the hubris of violently tearing the souls from bodies by supernatural means, being haunted by the souls of your victims is a nice touch. Its also not excessive and encourages to circle through more than exclusively insta-kills.

The downside I see is that it sounds more complex than it would need to be (ie: saves scale with difficulty, thus elite epic mobs have higher saves and stack a +10 bonus vs insta-kill spells instead of immunity with Hard to Kill on top of it). Haunting is a little harder to understand and with all the other changes it risks things becoming somewhat overwhelming.

Avidus
06-08-2012, 03:42 PM
So this would only go in affect Epic H and E?Since it is an effect placed on the player not the mobs I think this would happen everywhere.

Not too sure I like the part about it applying to players as well and not giving bonus to save vs assassinate. Rogue mobs could wipe out parties with just a few bad rolls. Fight all the way to the end of dungeon, roll poorly, get assassinated while wearing deathblock... hmm....

I also think the 15 second timer might be a bit too long. I would go with 8~10 seconds.
-2 per kill is a bit rough. I would go with -1 per kill, and I would also implement a maximum stack of say 6~8 ish.

Drwaz99
06-08-2012, 03:42 PM
We may consider a small buff on Hard/Elite/Epic Hard/Epic Elite difficulties to Saves vs. Death Magic for players and monsters at full or very high health, as well as a penalty at very low health, but at much smaller numbers than we were considering previously, when that was considered as a standalone system prior to the implementation of Hard to Kill.

[/I]

Um, not on heroic Hard/Elite. Only Epic please.

MrkGrismer
06-08-2012, 03:43 PM
I like it... if

1) Physical death (not magic) is unaffected (vorpals, monks, assassins)
2) The amount of the haunting is not based on the number of kills, but rather on the HP of the kills (such as -1 DC & 1 sec per 1,000 hp or so, just as an example). This way killing a bunch of rats doesn't haunt someone quite as much
3) There is a cool animation to go with it, I recommend something like this:
http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/378.jpg

(or maybe use miniature spectre/wraith models circling the head.)

Emili
06-08-2012, 03:44 PM
I am happy that you openned this up for discussion to brain storm along with the player's interest.

First I agree that insta-death did trivialize the content in beta, they would basically run to end of quest and my viewpoint is that everyone should have fun with the quest - as a whole. A quest should not be an end-boss for most.

I really like what I see in your proposal here so far... will ponder over it some.

Grace_ana
06-08-2012, 03:44 PM
As I don't have an end game arcane, I can't really comment on some of it. However, I'd like to see this limited to only certain spells.

If this were to be implemented, I could see it with circle of death and wail. MAYBE FoD (though it's single target and the cooldown is longer than the debuff, so I'm not sure of the point). But again, I don't have an end game arcane, so I'll leave the comments on those to them.

ETA: If this was to go live, it should ONLY be in epic hard and elite, preferably only epic elite.

LeLoric
06-08-2012, 03:44 PM
When a death spell successfully kills one or more targets, the caster acquires a debuff called "Haunting" for each target killed, for a short period of time.

The 15 seconds is too long. Finger of death has an 8 second cooldown meaning we cant even cast finger each time its off cooldown and stay free of hauntings. Single target fingers are not the issue here. 6 sec debuff would work fine its a long delay for those that like to masskill large numbers but doesn't penalize the spot killer.

Ladywolf
06-08-2012, 03:44 PM
What is the hard cap for the debuff?

Dolphious
06-08-2012, 03:45 PM
I like this, and I think it is a much more elegant solution than what you previously had.

I think 15 seconds is a pretty short cool down for a pretty minor debuff. That's the same timer as is on stunning blow, which completely prevents you from using the ability. I'd recommend a 30 second timer. Or a -5 penalty for 15 seconds as that would make a serious impact on the likelihood of the spell landing, -2 is just a 10% drop in effectiveness.

Rasczak
06-08-2012, 03:47 PM
I...wow...I like it.

stainer
06-08-2012, 03:47 PM
First I agree that insta-death did trivialize the content in beta, they would basically run to end of quest and my viewpoint is that everyone should have fun with the quest - as a whole. A quest should not be an end-boss for most.




That wasn't because arcanes were able to bug the ap distribution so they could max all ap lines, was it?

MrkGrismer
06-08-2012, 03:47 PM
When a death spell successfully kills one or more targets, the caster acquires a debuff called "Haunting" for each target killed, for a short period of time.

The 15 seconds is too long. Finger of death has an 8 second cooldown meaning we cant even cast finger each time its off cooldown and stay free of hauntings. Single target fingers are not the issue here. 6 sec debuff would work fine its a long delay for those that like to masskill large numbers but doesn't penalize the spot killer.

Well, he is not talking about a debuff that stops casting, but one that applies a stacking penalty on death spell DCs, making your spells easier to save against (less effective).

Since it is based on how many successes it would have a tendency to 'level the playing field' between those that are better at death and those that are less good at death.

LeLoric
06-08-2012, 03:47 PM
Would this impact an arcanes ability to solo?

Not really it just means after i wail/circle a bunch of mobs I just tab out to forums while the timers tick off

Ganolyn
06-08-2012, 03:48 PM
Would this impact an arcanes ability to solo?


I doubt it, but it might slow them down a bit. OH THE HORROR!!!! :D

justagame
06-08-2012, 03:48 PM
Two questions:

1. Would this be an epic-only effect? Because IMO it's actually worse to change the 1-19 game based on what happens in epic content. Your ordinary run-of-the-mill caster is being punished in everyday content because of what the cream of the crop players can do in the very hardest content.

2. Does it increment per spell, or per death? I ask because wail deaths are all at once, but implosion deaths are sequential. After the first mob dies to implosion, do the second and third mobs see lower DC's within the same casting? Or does it not increment until the next casting?

destiny4405
06-08-2012, 03:48 PM
you should look at the enemies and not at PCs.

i think you should look at the echrono model and go from there. groups of mobs have (or should) a devil that can't be insta killed, archers that stay out of wail reach, melees, cleric that casts DW and cometfall, wizards that, at least in beta, spam mass hold, stunning symbol and abis that cast very powerfull spells.

because of the undead form bug, i didn't test my PM in new content, but seeing how mobs are much smarter and their composition and abillities have much more variety, i think he would need all the help he can get.

Malshier
06-08-2012, 03:48 PM
Still lame.

If I manage to take out 6 mobs with 1 wail, my DC drops from 44 (my current on live) to 32. So for 15 seconds, I'd better not try to use FoD or Circle of Death, or risk further degradation of my DC. I guess I can still use PK. And TTS. Wait no. TTS has a CR cap. Nevermind.

I guess this is ok since it won't hurt my implosions.

You say you don't want to hurt casters with low to middling DCs. Well guess what? You just turned everyone into a caster with low to middling DCs.

stainer
06-08-2012, 03:48 PM
Not really it just means after i wail/circle a bunch of mobs I just tab out to forums while the timers tick off

Bahahahaha

LeLoric
06-08-2012, 03:49 PM
Well, he is not talking about a debuff that stops casting, but one that applies a stacking penalty on death spell DCs, making your spells easier to save against (less effective).

Since it is based on how many successes it would have a tendency to 'level the playing field' between those that are better at death and those that are less good at death.

Ahhh 1984 gotcha.

Malshier
06-08-2012, 03:49 PM
Oh I just re-read the part about it being in heroic hard and epic. That's just asinine.

Thrudh
06-08-2012, 03:51 PM
Thank you for the feedback on the Hard to Kill buff. We're planning on making changes to it based on your comments.

Instant death effects are a powerful tool that are difficult to strike perfect balance with. We've wavered over time from completely unusable (old Epic blanket Death Wards) to excessively strong (the current live situation). When they're completely unusable, that's a bad thing because it decreases the number of options you have to deal with encounters. When they're too strong, they likewise decrease the number of viable options that exist, and can dramatically reduce the enjoyment of other characters in your party.

Hard to Kill was intended to be a system that would put some restrictions on death spells, dropping once the enemy was reduced to half health, in an attempt to promote teamwork between casters and the rest of the party. We intended for this to turn death spells into an "execute" sort of mechanic - the party could take the monster down to half health, and then a Pale Master (or other caster) could finish it off.

The system turned out to be too restrictive, and we're planning on making changes to it.

In the Hard to Kill thread, there was a suggestion to use a system similar to the change we made to Saves vs. Poison. We considered this internally - giving players and monsters a bonus to Saves vs. Death Magic* (but not physical death effects like Assassinate) if they were at high health, and a penalty if they were low on health (on death's door!) This would not have included the "don't fail saves on a natural 1". Monsters on different difficulty settings would have had different save bonuses.

This would have kept the desired "let people do something in fights, prep monsters with Improved Sunder, and stuff like that", but we decided that it would have excessively harmed casters with low to middling DC's, who would go from being able to occasionally land a death effect to ending up in a situation pretty similar to the original Hard to Kill.

We want you to be able to have the "moment" of killing a bunch of creatures with a death spell, but don't want to leave the rest of the party with little to do. We want to control how often you're clearing rooms of all enemies with a few quick casts of a spell, but don't want to have even longer cooldowns (which again unfairly harm weaker casters the most, since their death effects are less likely to actually stick). We realized that the key was to let you use your death effects, but apply restrictions only when they're used successfully.

Our current idea is as follows:

When a death spell successfully kills one or more targets, the caster acquires a debuff called "Haunting" for each target killed, for a short period of time.

We're still working out details, but right now, Haunting is a stacking debuff that lasts 15 seconds and applies a -2 penalty to Death Magic save DC's. It decrements by 1 stack whenever the timer runs out.

We may consider a small buff on Hard/Elite/Epic Hard/Epic Elite difficulties to Saves vs. Death Magic for players and monsters at full or very high health, as well as a penalty at very low health, but at much smaller numbers than we were considering previously, when that was considered as a standalone system prior to the implementation of Hard to Kill.

This system essentially would create a "soft cooldown" that is triggered primarily by mass death effects, but still lets a caster Finger of Death a creature or two in fights. It has no effect unless you succeed, so weaker casters aren't harmed by it, and in emergencies even if your Haunted stack is high, Power Word: Kill can still strike down an enemy. (Its effectiveness is not reduced because it doesn't have a saving throw.)

Since your cooldowns wouldn't be longer than they are now, it would be up to you whether you wanted to chain death effects together, debuff opponents with spells like Energy Drain or work with a character with Improved Sunder to overcome the Haunting, or save your Wail for strategic moments when it will have the biggest effect.

We're still working out the details on this, and will then send it on to the engineers. Let us know what you think! Suggestions for improvement are welcome.

* I love making first edition references.

I think this is a very interesting idea, and I like how it works, where you can still use your insta-death spells, but not constantly.

But I think the Haunting effect is way too strong...

On wail where you hit 10 mobs means -20 to DCs for 150 seconds?

I think it should be -1 DC for every mob you kill with a 10 second stacking timer BUT (and this is important) cap out at -5 DC and 50 seconds, decreasing by 1 DC every 10 seconds. Or maybe -10 DC and 100 seconds (since our DCs are going way up with EDs)

It definitely needs some kind of hard cap I think.

Meat-Head
06-08-2012, 03:51 PM
This idea is soooo much better than the last one it's not even funny.

I think this idea is great with some tweaks.

I'll jump on the wagon of please make sure it doesn't apply to monks/rogues (I think you said it wouldn't which is good).

The debuff amount and timer could be played with but overall this is good. (It needs a cap as some are suggesting)


Also, the saves decreasing with health is great.


Good ideas are good.

stainer
06-08-2012, 03:51 PM
Oh I just re-read the part about it being in heroic hard and epic. That's just asinine.

No. It is brilliant. It keeps players from expecting to be good at end game, thus allowing them reroll quicker.

Avidus
06-08-2012, 03:52 PM
Still lame.

If I manage to take out 6 mobs with 1 wail, my DC drops from 44 (my current on live) to 32. So for 15 seconds, I'd better not try to use FoD or Circle of Death, or risk further degradation of my DC. I guess I can still use PK. And TTS. Wait no. TTS has a CR cap. Nevermind.

I guess this is ok since it won't hurt my implosions.

You say you don't want to hurt casters with low to middling DCs. Well guess what? You just turned everyone into a caster with low to middling DCs.

And after 15 seconds your DC becomes 34...
15 more seconds (30 total) 36...
15 more seconds (45 total) 38...
15 more seconds (60 total) 40...
15 more seconds (75 total) 42...
15 more seconds (90 total) 44...

So 1 wail then a minute and a half before your DC is back to normal IF you don't kill anything with CoD or FoD that is.

Grace_ana
06-08-2012, 03:52 PM
Still lame.

If I manage to take out 6 mobs with 1 wail, my DC drops from 44 (my current on live) to 32. So for 15 seconds, I'd better not try to use FoD or Circle of Death, or risk further degradation of my DC. I guess I can still use PK. And TTS. Wait no. TTS has a CR cap. Nevermind.

I guess this is ok since it won't hurt my implosions.

You say you don't want to hurt casters with low to middling DCs. Well guess what? You just turned everyone into a caster with low to middling DCs.

If I'm reading correctly - and I'm not sure I am - it would be 15 seconds PER MOB. So that's 2 minutes before the debuff is completely cleared.

DarkForte
06-08-2012, 03:53 PM
Unless you are actually geared to the teeth, on the current epic situation (which corresponds to epic hard), a lot of stuff on the harder epics isn't readily instakilled (at least, if I tried to instakill my way through ecof with my 42 DC, I'd probably be out of sp and dead VERY quickly), especially high fort mobs. This is how you should balance instakills. Giving a blanket immunity or forcing you to halt progress in a quest for 1:30 just so your haunt wears off, henceforth halting EVERYONE ELSE in the party, is no fun to anyone. ESPECIALLY for those casters that don't have ridiculous DCs and can't take multiple debuffs without having unusable DCs.

A better solution would be mixing orange nameds in with other mobs in other epics, the way it is done in eChrono. Since a considerable portion of the opposition (the devils and abishai) are immune to instakills, even if I CoD the archers and all tiefling soldiers, the melee still have a lot to do, and even if I can't instakill those, I can still contribute meaningfully to party success by crowd controlling them. My opinion is that eChrono is the most balanced quest in the game in that respect. My arcane doesn't feel crippled or useless, and neither do the party melee.

Moreover, I'd petition this affect only epic elites, since most of us want to keep running epic hard for the same drop rates we have now (no sense in increasing the grind for acquiring epic scrolls even further, since our arcanes will have extremely reduced effectiveness on scroll-farming hard epics with the debuff as presented). Of course, there's always the option of increasing drop rates so you don't need to have an arcane just to scroll-farm and can acquire your stuff through normal epic questing.

Scraap
06-08-2012, 03:53 PM
Our current idea is as follows:

When a death spell successfully kills one or more targets, the caster acquires a debuff called "Haunting" for each target killed, for a short period of time.

We're still working out details, but right now, Haunting is a stacking debuff that lasts 15 seconds and applies a -2 penalty to Death Magic save DC's. It decrements by 1 stack whenever the timer runs out.


Still mulling it over, so just to make sure I'm reading that right, a necro-focused High DC caster that leads off with the tactic of:

Fingering the cleric, and PKing the wizard nets a -4 penalty that falls off after 1 minute

circle of death (max 4 mobs) and draws the agro of the remainder to the party for mop-up (something I use quite often) would end up with a -8 penalty eventually diminishing back to normal after 2 minutes,

while someone blowing through and wailing, say... 10-15 mobs would be -20 to -30 and about 2.5 to 3.75?



We may consider a small buff on Hard/Elite/Epic Hard/Epic Elite difficulties to Saves vs. Death Magic for players and monsters at full or very high health, as well as a penalty at very low health, but at much smaller numbers than we were considering previously, when that was considered as a standalone system prior to the implementation of Hard to Kill.


As to "works one way here, and another there"... I'd really rather folks get trained in how to use the tactics as they ramp up in difficulty. So I'd much prefer if you're going to do it, do it completely.

Dolphious
06-08-2012, 03:53 PM
Oh I just re-read the part about it being in heroic hard and epic. That's just asinine.

Why? I'd say implement it in all content on all difficulties. The differences in base saves should be enough to distinguish norm,hard, elite.

gravestones
06-08-2012, 03:54 PM
First, it's refreshing to see that when hot issue such as this rears it's head, the dev-team has the resources to focus and respond.

Second, it is a step in the right direction, although as presented it requires a reduction in both the amount of the penalty and the duration of the debuff.

Third, there is an issue that needs to be addressed: the myth that most PM's or necro-focused AM's can sweep through epic content and lay low virtually all of the content, with little challenge. This is simply not true, and really only applies to the top percentile of necro-focused arcanes.

Quite frankly, if a player has invested enough lives into an arcane to have +9 spell pen (3 x wizard and 3 x favoured soul past lives), the maximum possible intelligence (i.e. completionist) and farmed out the best possible gear (+4 intelligence tome, tier 3 alchemicals...) then they had better be dominating content, for two reasons.

First, it is consistent with the lore that comprises the foundation of the game - that at the highest levels, spell casters are indeed the most powerful.

Second, if there is no tangible benefit to investing countless hours TR'ing and raiding and farming gear, then where is the underlying motivation to continue?

Kmnh
06-08-2012, 03:55 PM
If you want to help the low-middle DC casters and the all caster parties, do it the other way around. Keep mob saves high and make saving on a death spell debuff the mobs.

That way, if a crazy geared pale master brings a newbie along with him, the newbie can use his wail to debuff the mobs while the master lands the actual kills.

Melee-centered builds could use circle of death/implosion as a debuff spell, like they do with hypnotism and crushing despair today.


It would also avoid situations where the party leader says: "ok, the caster has 5 minutes worth of debuffs. Wait in this room and go get a drink, if you move into the next room you will be blacklisted".

barryman5000
06-08-2012, 03:55 PM
Doesn't make sense. You guys would be better off increasing the cooldown of death spells. If they are that bad then increase the cooldown and not decrease the dc.

Nines9
06-08-2012, 03:55 PM
I like the concept, with a little tweaking maybe. Keep it off of single target spells (finger/pwk/destruct). Keep it out of heroic levels, just hard epic/elite epic. No need for boosts against death spells I would think, idk. Cap the haunting to 5 procs, raise the timer to 20 seconds, which seems reasonable.

I wail 5 or more guys. If I use circle of death within 20 seconds after I'm -10 to my necro dc. By the time my wail is back up I'm still at -8. Assuming I'm going to use my aoe instakill spells whenever they're off timer, I'll be perpetually at either -8 or -10, so going to miss a lot of stuff for the melee to come beat on. But still have single targets available at full potency.

danotmano1998
06-08-2012, 03:56 PM
Ok, after rereading the proposal, I'm not clear on what difficulties this new mechanic would apply to.

Also not clear on the numbers. Is it -2 DC for each monster killed? Each Mob?
How much is a "stack"?

(IMO, if you're going to do this it should ONLY be for epic hard/elites. Just gotta throw that out there.)

Meretrix
06-08-2012, 03:56 PM
I am very happy the devs are actually listening to us and make changes like this based on feedback but please don't drop any more bombs on us like hard to kill. It was such a poor solution when their are so many other viable ones.

The current proposal sounds like a good compromise I could live with but I wonder why you are so concerned with hurting casters with poor dc. If they have a poor dc and are unable to land spells in hard and elite epics then there are several ways for them to improve their dc and this is the very point of the game is improving your abilities to make content smoother.

scoobmx
06-08-2012, 03:57 PM
Just to clarify, by death magic you mean Destruction, Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, and Circle of Death, right? In other words, school of necromancy spells? So the following instant-kill spells are NOT affected:
Phantasmal Killer
Trap the Soul
Power Word Kill
Implosion

And so this gives people a reason to use some of these other spells and raise DC's for those to complement necromancy spells.

It would be interesting to have some kind of 'stance' available in the PM enhancement tree that can alter haunting effects. Maybe:
Embrace of Undeath (2 AP)
Toggle this stance to become immune to Haunting effects. The Haunting counter still accumulates but does not begin depleting until this stance is deactivated. You have 0 Constitution, lowering your hit points and fortitude save, but do not suffer helplessness or death as a result. No effects can increase your Constitution above 0 besides deactivating this stance.

Ape_Man
06-08-2012, 03:58 PM
And can we get a dev to clarify . .. will this work on ALL difficulty settings or just epic H and E?

Jay203
06-08-2012, 03:59 PM
sounds interesting thus far :)
assassin rogues get to go back to neck-slicing without worry and casters can still land their instant-kills
might have to adjust the duration a bit later though

Burdden
06-08-2012, 03:59 PM
First I like this idea a lot more, I think in tandum you should either add the relavent timer to power word kill scrolls instead of someone who has stockpiled up a whole bunch, for example end in epic lord of blades with 50+ kills .

Just my 2 cents

Thanks

Smithers

Grimlock
06-08-2012, 04:00 PM
-2 to DC's will gimp casters even more than they will be in the next expansion. Why is the focus on limiting existing classes/spells as they are now in the game? We currently have cooldown times that is excessive in the beta for casters. Do we need to restrict them more by lowering their chances for killing mobs now?

Is the goal here to have casters run in, WotB mobs, then kite the surviving mobs around until their -2 DC "Haunting" cooldown has expired then repeat? Even with acquiring 1-3 Wizard past lives that penalty will be felt. Breaking SR for epic creatures will be difficult enough, casters do not need the added burden of their spell DC's being lowered.

I recognize Turbine is doing everything it can to level the playing field between melee types and casters with respect to epic content, but that is not a reality.

Siftrant
06-08-2012, 04:01 PM
Do Melees get a new de-buff as well? Reducing their damage and to-hit by a stacking 10% reduction every time they kill something?

Why is it such a problem that casters can do something effectively besides cast Hage?

Malshier
06-08-2012, 04:02 PM
BRB buying all the PWK scrolls off the AH on Sarlona.

Oh wait, I already do that.

Thrudh
06-08-2012, 04:04 PM
Is the goal here to have casters run in, WotB mobs, then kite the surviving mobs around until their -2 DC "Haunting" cooldown has expired then repeat?

I think the goal is for you to bring some friends, or use different tactics than just wail all the time.

This change still lets you use wail at full (or near full) power for certain situations, but no longer for ALL situations.

Eladiun
06-08-2012, 04:05 PM
In the Hard to Kill thread, there was a suggestion to use a system similar to the change we made to Saves vs. Poison. We considered this internally - giving players and monsters a bonus to Saves vs. Death Magic* (but not physical death effects like Assassinate) if they were at high health, and a penalty if they were low on health (on death's door!) This would not have included the "don't fail saves on a natural 1". Monsters on different difficulty settings would have had different save bonuses.

This would have kept the desired "let people do something in fights, prep monsters with Improved Sunder, and stuff like that", but we decided that it would have excessively harmed casters with low to middling DC's, who would go from being able to occasionally land a death effect to ending up in a situation pretty similar to the original Hard to Kill.


This is all about Epic Hard and Epic Elite difficulties correct. So, why do we care about casters with low to middlin'd DC's?

Aren't the Hardest settings designed for the best toons?

It seems awfully counter intuitive to create difficulty tuning setting for you hardest difficulty quests while aiming to make them viable for low DC Casters. It's like scaling HP for a mob with the assumption the melee is swing a Club of the Silver Flame.

brzytki
06-08-2012, 04:06 PM
I like the change. It tones down the most whined about spells while not affecting my assassinate or Shadowdancer.

One question though: does it mean that we finally get death spells (FoD, Wail, Circle) separated from physical death effects (vorpal, assassinate, QP)? Or will assassinate still be lamely blocked by deathblock/ward?

THOTHdha
06-08-2012, 04:06 PM
This system seems much, much better than Hard to Kill. It keeps wizards from clearing the majority of the dungeon ahead of the party, while not gutting the usefulness of instakills. More strategic rather than forced game play is always good. I do have a couple of questions about it, though.

Will Haunting apply to forms of instakills other than the Finger and Wail that you mentioned? Specifically, how about Rogue Assassins? The active ability wouldn't really suffer terribly on it's own, but if this does apply to all death effects the rogue could easily build up Haunting stacks from their uncontrollable vorpals that keep them from being able to use their active ability when they really want it.

Will resting remove the Haunting stack? I think that this is pretty important. I can think of quite a few instances where casters might otherwise be left playing a very back-seat role for a good chunk of the quest in order to make sure that their stack is clear at a certain point, which is clearly no fun, or making the party wait around while their debuffs clear before being ready to continue. Being able to purge the stack by resting makes the balancing of Haunting stacks vs DCs more usable, and since rest shrines are a very limited resource doesn't really disrupt the intended balance of it.



We may consider a small buff on Hard/Elite/Epic Hard/Epic Elite difficulties to Saves vs. Death Magic for players and monsters at full or very high health, as well as a penalty at very low health, but at much smaller numbers than we were considering previously, when that was considered as a standalone system prior to the implementation of Hard to Kill.

This seems kind of excessive, in addition to the other system, in regards to the non-Epic difficulties. Doing this for Epic-Hard and Epic-Elite is one thing, but doesn't it seem like applying it to old content would be a bit disruptive?

Grailhawk
06-08-2012, 04:06 PM
Its better then Hard to Kill but it has the flaw of penalizing some one for being good at what they do.

Pewf
06-08-2012, 04:07 PM
I kind of like it.

It reminds me of a book I read where this mage would cast Insta-Death spells but doing so would drain his own life force, slowly killing him. (totally irrelevant - but that was my favorite character)

I like it a lot as it's not super op, but still leaves the option to insta-kill in.

Only thing I would change is drop it to -1 dc, and hard cap how many Haunting can stack too.

Cyndrome
06-08-2012, 04:07 PM
Wow. Is thise planned only for epic hard and epic elite? I am glad Turbine listened to the feed back.

Blank_Zero
06-08-2012, 04:07 PM
I'm loving the doom threads coming from folks who don't think a wizard can do anything but FoD and Wail.

meathook2012
06-08-2012, 04:08 PM
Just wanting to understand. This pentalty applies 15sec/mob? Perhaps lower it a bit due to thats pretty excessive. And its only to CoD and wail right?

2nd question, it applys at all levels correct? It wouldnt be as devastating in the early levels, which is a good thing. But I am not 100% sure if its a good thing for it to apply to regular content level quests.


But overall, WAYYYYYYYYYY better than "Hard to Kill", which was killed!

danotmano1998
06-08-2012, 04:08 PM
This is all about Epic Hard and Epic Elite difficulties correct. So, why do we care about casters with low to middlin'd DC's?

Aren't the Hardest settings designed for the best toons?

It seems awfully counter intuitive to create difficulty tuning setting for you hardest difficulty quests while aiming to make them viable for low DC Casters. It's like scaling HP for a mob with the assumption the melee is swing a Club of the Silver Flame.

Actually, this is a good question.

But the idea seems solid enough. You only get haunted by those you kill, right?
I think the middling DC casters statement just clouds things. Low or high DC, doesn't matter. If you kill it with one of the death spells, it adds haunting. If you don't, it doesn't.

Malshier
06-08-2012, 04:08 PM
I'm loving the doom threads coming from folks who don't think a wizard can do anything but FoD and Wail.

Also circle of death and web. Luckily my web DCs aren't going down....



YET.

janave
06-08-2012, 04:09 PM
The previous idea "Hard to Kill" was good enough. With that said, bless you for giving it more thought.

You guys really have to decide at some point though, you cant satisfy all, it wont be over. As you can see from the responses peeps already have compromise for the compromise :).

For the criers: would it be so bad if other options than necro became suddenly viable? Read: Spell points and time efficient, if thats what you are into :). Any good wizards will be fine without the one-click-flush-army.

Auralana7214
06-08-2012, 04:09 PM
Instead of debuffing casters, why aren't melees just made better?

Ladywolf
06-08-2012, 04:09 PM
Still lame.

If I manage to take out 6 mobs with 1 wail, my DC drops from 44 (my current on live) to 32. So for 15 seconds, I'd better not try to use FoD or Circle of Death, or risk further degradation of my DC. I guess I can still use PK. And TTS. Wait no. TTS has a CR cap. Nevermind.

I guess this is ok since it won't hurt my implosions.

You say you don't want to hurt casters with low to middling DCs. Well guess what? You just turned everyone into a caster with low to middling DCs.

The way I read it, if you take out six with your wail, your dc goes from 44 to 32. In 15 secs it goes to 34. In another 15 secs it goes to 36. So it will actually be 90 secs before you are back to your old dc

Malshier
06-08-2012, 04:10 PM
Wow, a *whole two minutes*!!! you mean the same timer that's on manyshot? And you're not going to kill 8 mobs on epic elite with one manyshot. And a Wizard will still have far better options for killing during that timer than an AA does.

If anything it's too short.

If you're a flowersniffer, and go extra slow, 2 minutes probably seems just fine and dandy.
If you enjoy zerging, and try to run through quests as fast as you can manage, 2 minutes is an absolute eternity.

Scraap
06-08-2012, 04:11 PM
I'm loving the doom threads coming from folks who don't think a wizard can do anything but FoD and Wail.

Quiet yous. Don't let em figure out we'll just spam mass AOE damage or single out their casters and turn em against their own parties, or we'll end up with DBF echos too. (Oh, I'm sorry, did I say that out loud? :p)

Malshier
06-08-2012, 04:11 PM
The way I read it, if you take out six with your wail, your dc goes from 44 to 32. In 15 secs it goes to 34. In another 15 secs it goes to 36. So it will actually be 90 secs before you are back to your old dc

Yeah I was giving them too much credit. Several people have pointed that out to me. :(

Dolphious
06-08-2012, 04:11 PM
I'm loving the doom threads coming from folks who don't think a wizard can do anything but FoD and Wail.

Bingo. Even a necro focused PM has plenty they can do when instakill stuff is on a soft timer. If anything the timer should be a bit harsher/longer to really push people to mix up their strategies.

Maybe -1/-2/-3 for 10/20/30 seconds on norm/hard/elite (and nothing on casual for those that really want that god-mode feeling).

DarkForte
06-08-2012, 04:12 PM
Third, there is an issue that needs to be addressed: the myth that most PM's or necro-focused AM's can sweep through epic content and lay low virtually all of the content, with little challenge. This is simply not true, and really only applies to the top percentile of necro-focused arcanes.

Quite frankly, if a player has invested enough lives into an arcane to have +9 spell pen (3 x wizard and 3 x favoured soul past lives), the maximum possible intelligence (i.e. completionist) and farmed out the best possible gear (+4 intelligence tome, tier 3 alchemicals...) then they had better be dominating content, for two reasons.

This. Just because LeLoric's PM can solo all the content in the game, it shouldn't mean my arcane that needs a party backing him up should become a one-trick pony relegated casting dancing balls and haging the party (ok, a TWO-trick pony).

Devs should understand that after reducing full-meta'ed damage on arcanes, they are already much less effective at soloing than before. This will make it so that any party with more than one arcane is an auto-fail.

voodoogroves
06-08-2012, 04:12 PM
I'm not clear - is haunting going to trigger off of single-target spells / abilities? I would prefer not.

The problem isn't casters fingering everyone to death - its wail / circle ... right?

Dolphious
06-08-2012, 04:13 PM
If you're a flowersniffer, and go extra slow, 2 minutes probably seems just fine and dandy.
If you enjoy zerging, and try to run through quests as fast as you can manage, 2 minutes is an absolute eternity.

Then if you want to zerg, mix up your strategy in each fight...

Cyndrome
06-08-2012, 04:13 PM
Instead of debuffing casters, why aren't melees just made better?

Pfft. Just nerf them more so people will stop playing them altogether and we can stop hearing all this nonsense about nerfing casters.

stockwizard5
06-08-2012, 04:13 PM
Much better - thank you!

I 2nd that Implosion, PWK, TtS, and PK are not "death effects" so should not count.

Well I guess PWK is but since no save and HUGE cooldown - leave it out.

hiryuu42
06-08-2012, 04:14 PM
Frankly, these broad sweeping solutions don't work because the approach is fundamentally flawed. DnD has a solution for this, and DDO would too if the devs stopped breaking it.

Melee classes have good Fort, Casters not so much. Archers have good Reflex. Monks, Paladins, and dexer Clerics are very annoying. Leaders are higher level, with stronger saves. Good, balanced campaigns play to that layout.

So...
Undergeared casters can kill many archers, most arcane, and maybe a cleric that's slow on Deathward.
Good casters will take out most archers and arcane, probably a couple melees.
Great casters will take out most stuff, except leaders, Paladins, Monks, and Clerics.

Likewise...
Undergeared casters can hold some melee and archers, Web casters.
Good casters will hold most/all melee and archers.
Great casters will hold all but leaders and casters.

See, not complicated! Very DnD. Middling casters get something, great casters get more, and they still need the party to beat down more troublesome enemies.

Voldomar
06-08-2012, 04:14 PM
I think this is a very interesting idea, and I like how it works, where you can still use your insta-death spells, but not constantly.

But I think the Haunting effect is way too strong...

On wail where you hit 10 mobs means -20 to DCs for 150 seconds?

I think it should be -1 DC for every mob you kill with a 10 second stacking timer BUT (and this is important) cap out at -5 DC and 50 seconds, decreasing by 1 DC every 10 seconds. Or maybe -10 DC and 100 seconds (since our DCs are going way up with EDs)

It definitely needs some kind of hard cap I think.

Yes. A hard cap is needed

Grace_ana
06-08-2012, 04:14 PM
Wow, a *whole two minutes*!!! you mean the same timer that's on manyshot? And you're not going to kill 8 mobs on epic elite with one manyshot. And a Wizard will still have far better options for killing during that timer than an AA does.

If anything it's too short.

Two minutes is an eternity in a fight. Call me crazy, but I prefer that my party members be able to contribute to the best of their abilities. If that means they kill more than me, fine, but I'll take that over getting beat down while the wizard waits for a two minute cooldown while trying to spam suboptimal aoe spells. Sometimes in a quest, things go wrong, and anyone that can save us from a wipe is welcome. Death spells are excellent for those "oh ****" moments. I'm not so convinced that it's best for everyone to not be able to use them effectively.

Grimlock
06-08-2012, 04:14 PM
Thanks Turbine!

I spent like 15 minutes typing out a reply to this thread commenting about MotU, this caster gimp change, constructive advice on how to handle it, and this expansion. I go to hit Submit Reply and I was booted from the forums and lost my entire post.

Ahhh, now I remember why I only have ~67 replies since February 2006.

Carry on with the nails in the coffin.

TBot1234
06-08-2012, 04:14 PM
Having to keep doing a tooltip/mouseover to constantly check my DC sounds horrid. I'd rather be enchantment focused wiz or a Sorc...

Ladywolf
06-08-2012, 04:15 PM
Just curious why some people say finger of death won't be affected? This is a sincere question

voodoogroves
06-08-2012, 04:16 PM
... and ... still bummed we can't get more variability in mobs on-spawn.

DeafeningWhisper
06-08-2012, 04:16 PM
So I can cast Wail/Implosion once kill a bunch of mobs then, I have to prep the mobs if I want to insta-kill right away?!?!

/Signed :)

Sounds quite reasonable, on my PM I'll move from insta-killing to CC while haunting goes away back to insta-killing and on my cleric I won't see much of a difference since I don't insta-kill all that much, but now I'll at least have the option.

Might wanna add a hard cap on the stack thou, let say a minute (random number here), so 4 mobs(again random). I mean even if they wanted to -8 to DCs is hard to over come even if you prep the **** out of the mobs for a 1st lifer but doable for the epic geared multi-Tred.

Or is the point to force a "can't insta-kill no more no matter what" point? If yes leave it as is, if not add a stack limit.

Either way love this a lot more then the blanket immunity, it adds difficulty without removing possibility.

BoBoDaClown
06-08-2012, 04:18 PM
Great idea - it's really good because it sound slike the values/durations could be fiddled with, once people see how it plays out.

Dolphious
06-08-2012, 04:18 PM
Two minutes is an eternity in a fight. Call me crazy, but I prefer that my party members be able to contribute to the best of their abilities. If that means they kill more than me, fine, but I'll take that over getting beat down while the wizard waits for a two minute cooldown while trying to spam suboptimal aoe spells. Sometimes in a quest, things go wrong, and anyone that can save us from a wipe is welcome. Death spells are excellent for those "oh ****" moments. I'm not so convinced that it's best for everyone to not be able to use them effectively.

If the wizard has a 2 minute timer that means they just killed 8 mobs in less than 15 seconds. If one toon kills 8 mobs in less than 15 seconds and you're in a "dire" situation you did something very wrong, and you deserve what comes. Play smarter don't ask for easy buttons.

edit: I'll grant that a hard cap is needed. I would say 12 stacks for 3 mins. Even the most hardcore casters would stuggle to just plow through that, and you don't want to slow down people needlessly.

Malshier
06-08-2012, 04:18 PM
I just feel like this, all of this, is punishing people who are successful with their toons, and spent time building them that way.

Does everyone who rolls a palemaster go out and solo epics the second they hit 20? No, they don't. The people who spend time getting the good gear, the past lives, the best stat tomes, they are the ones who shine. They are the ones who go in and wail a room full of epic mobs. I don't do that. I'm not exceptionally well built. I throw a symbol of death down, let em take negs. I cast hypno+crushing despair. Or I'll lay down a mind fog, kite some suckers into it and then hit em with crushing despair. I can't just walk up to a pack of epic mobs and take them out instantly.

But I haven't spent all that much time making my PM uber either. And I don't begrudge ANYONE who spends that kind of time on their toon. I have 2 friends in guild who ground out 3x wiz and 3x fvs lives so they could be an elf with max spell pen. They DESERVE that spell pen. They shouldn't be punished because my second life human wizard only passes epic drow spell pen on a roll of 10+. They spent the time and effort to max out spell pen so they would seldom fail. The same can be said about someone who goes for max DC on their necro spells. They spent the time, effort and energy to be BADASS! Let them be badass.

Ape_Man
06-08-2012, 04:18 PM
I'd be much more comfortable if this new dynamic was also named after a Steven Seagal movie.

LeoLionxxx
06-08-2012, 04:19 PM
I like it, and as a caster (on my 2nd main), I'd have no problem if this was on all content. 15 seconds might be a tad long; 10 sec is more reasonable and yes, just -1 to DC.
About the 'higher hp, harder to kill' thing, does that apply to Power Word Kill? It is not a useless spell and it's quite effective. Would it still have no DC?

DeafeningWhisper
06-08-2012, 04:20 PM
Just curious why some people say finger of death won't be affected? This is a sincere question

Haunting = 15 sec de-buff = longer then FoD cooldown = you can FoD all you want just don't wail and your DCs stay intact.

Basically you can play sniper, just don't pull the machinegun and you're fine :)

Malshier
06-08-2012, 04:21 PM
I'd be much more comfortable if this new dynamic was also named after a Steven Seagal movie.

http://noraazap.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/halfpastdead1.jpg


http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTQzNTE3OTc5Nl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMjU0OTUyMQ@@._ V1._SY317_CR1,0,214,317_.jpg


http://www.warriorrecords.com/images/urban_justice.jpg

Vazok1
06-08-2012, 04:21 PM
Hm, I would have preferred something more dnd'ish. Instead of a blanket hard to kill on all mobs just give them a 50% chance to have it or something.

Anyway, that is not going to happen now. So. This new thing.

Its fine, but can you make it a per specific spell thing, not a game wide thing. Because if its a game wide thing it will hurt all other magical instant kill effects that already have other restrictions, like consume or everything is nothing.

Admittedly the timer for consume or everything is long enough that its inconsequential but the point still stands, it would limit any future death affects. So im all for it, but as long as it is added to the spells themselves, not to the game.


Edit: On a side note I do agree with those saying there should be a cap on how far it can go down :) if we can get it high enough to work WITH the de-buff going, well, let us.

Voldomar
06-08-2012, 04:23 PM
*tinfoil hat on*

Arcane spellsurge: (Active Cooldown: 4 mins) +5 to all spell DCs for 20 seconds
Spell School augmentation (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive) Chosen school spells have 5% chance to reduce target <save depending on school> by 10 for 10 seconds

I guess Haunting was their plan A from the beginning...

*tinfoil hat off*

Cauthey
06-08-2012, 04:24 PM
So im all for it, but as long as it is added to the spells themselves, not to the game.

Oh, that part is already set in stone. The Haunting effect will be intrinsically tied to handwraps. :eek:

:p

Grailhawk
06-08-2012, 04:25 PM
I would suggest a better change to insta kills would be to change the spells such that on a failed save the mob has a fixed % chance to die if it doesn't die some other effect takes place. For example Finger of Death because on a failed save the target has a chance to die (lets say 50%) if he does not die he takes 100d100 damage on a successful save he takes 10d100 damage. Numbers don't really mater there just examples.

brzytki
06-08-2012, 04:25 PM
I'd be much more comfortable if this new dynamic was also named after a Steven Seagal movie.
Here you are:
http://67.210.103.57/uploads/assets/products/Marked_For_Death.jpg
;)

Malshier
06-08-2012, 04:26 PM
I would suggest a better change to insta kills would be to change the spells such that on a failed save the mob has a fixed % chance to die if it doesn't die some other effect takes place. For example Finger of Death because on a failed save the target has a chance to die (lets say 50%) if he does not die he takes 100d100 damage on a successful save he takes 10d100 damage. Numbers don't really mater there just examples.

FoD already does damage on a failed save. I think...

TBot1234
06-08-2012, 04:27 PM
I'd be much more comfortable if this new dynamic was also named after a Steven Seagal movie.

Film Title==>DDO Dynamic

Marked For Death==>Timer For Death
Out For Justice==>Out For 2 Minutes (until Haunting goes away)
Under Siege==>Under Haunting
On Deadly Ground==>On Haunted Ground
Ticker==>Ticker
Half Past Dead==>ummm, would have applied to the original nerf concept
Out For A Kill==>Out for a 1/2 cig while Haunting cools down
Today You Die==>In Two Minutes You Die
Driven To Kill==>Driven To Wait
A Dangerous Man==>Soon To Be A Dangerous Man
Sheep Impact==>Sheep Impact (too good to change it!)

Armus
06-08-2012, 04:27 PM
I certainly appreciate Turbine not closing the door on this issue and the players. The proposed plan demonstrates to me the developers have a strong grasp on the issues and a desire for fairness. The first counter points I would recommend seem to be echoed by others.

1) 15 seconds is a bit long especially is a soloing environment. I would suggest 10 seconds with a hard cap of three to four effects. Even if you do not cap the debuff, the timer should have a max limit. Example: a wizard caught in a trap has to FoD his way out. Wail's long timer makes this a regular occurence. The caster should not be stuck" recharging" for more than say a minute after such a fight.

2) as this is expected to fix the disparity of power, previous fixes should be removed. Timer changes in Update 9 should be cancelled. If a palemaster blasts 10 mobs in a minute, that's just a heck of a negative modifier but the timer should allow him to do it. Note there must be a hard cap.

3) make each cast it's own debuff. The first debuff should end 10 seconds after cast, not restart the timer and increment with the second cast. With a cap of debuffs this will be manageable for all.

alexp80
06-08-2012, 04:28 PM
So are you serious? really?

The better I am the more I'm punished by the game?
I kill let's say 5 mobs with a wail. Then I have over 1 minute debuff (starting with -10) with the main pre feature of my class?

I'm pushed down as a first life wizard undergeared for 5 kills?

What are you thinking about?

let's think about ELITE

means tough
means that you MUST BE GOOD to handle it. Push their saves over 9000 I don't care, I'll find a way to be better.

NO instead you push me down making pointless for me spending time for gathering gear and raising my toon skills.

Kaldais
06-08-2012, 04:29 PM
I like it; however please consider putting a hard cap on the debuff.

I much perfer -1DC/15sec stacking 10 times. A -10DC would be sufficient in curbing a zerging necro.

Also instead of placing a static quest debuff on all hard/elite/epic hard/epic elite quests, please consider using monster CR. IE. Haunting debuff only applies if you use necromancy instand kill to sniff the life of a much powerful creature. Debuff applies if the creature you kill has CR greater than your character level + 5(that number to be worked out). This will still give necromancers the option to run through level 1 elite quests and slaughter 200 cr 5 kobolds.

sweez
06-08-2012, 04:30 PM
So what are exactly 'death' spells?

Does that include all spells that have any sort of instakill as their effect, regardless of their school including but not limited to FoD, Wail, CoD, PK, TTS, Prismatic (sp)ray, Implosion, Destruction, Slay living?

Does it only include spells that are prevented by deathward (excluding TTS, Prismatic (sp)ray), regardless of their school?

Does it include all spells that fall under the school of necromancy (which would include stuff like Bestow Curse, Fear, etc.)?

Does it only include spells that are instakills and also of the necromancy school?


Will there be a hard cap on the debuff?



I personally see absolutely no need to nerf death effects (I do see much need to buff other stuff but I guess I'm weird), and this does sound like the typical Turbine move of announcing a huge nerf, then 'listening' to the playerbase followed by the introduction of a slightly less huge nerf, and basking in people's thanks (because, let's face it, people are sheep, and you guys sure know how to play on that)...

...but if it only affects spells affected by deathward (and if you consequently modify the HD restrictions on TTS, and possibly make Prismatic (sp)ray slightly less random), and if it's hard capped at say -6 (that's nerfing someone's DC efficiency by a third), I'll give you that it's not completely horribad.

herzkos
06-08-2012, 04:34 PM
haven't read whole thread only to page 3 or so. will do so after posting.

I think i see what you did there.
Make totally hideous/outrageous "change". forum apoplexy occurs.
give a day or two to stew.
post original idea as a "compromise".

Now seen as listening to player base while getting change that was originally desired . . .
or maybe i'm just a naturally evil thinking person.

oh yeah the merits:
I like the proposed change.
Unlike many posters want, keep it the same throughout all difficulty levels.
My reason for this is that a spell should operate consistently.
If you want, make it a 10 sec debuff in heroic levels and a 15 sec debuff on epic due to epic
mobs power and ability to hang on after life as it were.
Am open to the amount/mob changing to -1/kill or staying at -2. Either way it has the desired
effect.

not that anyone will read this far into the thread for "new" opinions anyway.

/edit. ok, so one other poster was wearing his tinfoil hat too.
only other thing after reading the whole thread:
don't cap it. it's simple: if you cast and it lands then you get a debuff. if you cast and whiff, no debuff.
it's self capping.

Autolycus
06-08-2012, 04:37 PM
Devs, thank you for reconsidering "Hard to kill". Please keep in mind that whatever changes you make also affects casting Divines!

One of the few fun parts of playing my caster cleric is being able to occasionally toss out an implosion, destruction, slay living, banishment, or dismissal. I cannot clear entire dungeons with them as all are single target except implosion and banishment and implosion only has a chance to kill a single mob every few seconds for a very short duration while having a very long cooldown.

Without instakill spells, Divine offensive casting is reduced to a very limited spell list.

Cometfall is good.
Flamestrike and Firestorm(annoying to target) both do fire damage to which many high level mobs are immune.
Blade Barrier which most pugs don't take advantage of when you cast it.
That leaves low damage spells such as nimbus of light and searing light which I believe caps damage at tenth level.


Yes, I still toss Greater Command and Soundburst, but occasionally it's nice(fun) to be able to kill something between healing, buffing, and crowd control.

Vordax
06-08-2012, 04:37 PM
Just thinking out loud here, about some existing raids:

ToD - As a caster I usually get orthon duty. After the 2nd or 3rd Orthon my DC would start to get unreilable.

LoB - end fight, a PM can take out a few mobs, then no longer can reliably kill mobs.

Shroud - a PM can clear one portal probably before being unable to continue.

So a party leader has the option of taking additional casters and have them alternate kills here, or not take any casters and just go all melee and maybe pick up a bard for haste.

Chette
06-08-2012, 04:38 PM
Hi Eladrin,

First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to feedback. I wish that this could have been something proposed in the original closed beta, as I think you might have received calmer, more focused feedback. When something like this is listed out of the blue in an open beta, people tend to panic, and wonder if something is being slipped in all sneaky like.

Anyway, I think what you have proposed is a step in the right direction, some limit to magical insta-death, but with higher penalties applied to the mass insta-kills, which are much more overpowering than the single targets.

I did want to jump on one item you mentioned though.


We want to control how often you're clearing rooms of all enemies with a few quick casts of a spell, but don't want to have even longer cooldowns (which again unfairly harm weaker casters the most, since their death effects are less likely to actually stick).

Since you agree that having a long cooldowns unfairly harm weaker casters the most, can you comment on why the cooldown on implode is 60 seconds, while the cooldowns on wail and circle of death are 30 seconds? Divine casters are typically weaker at the instakills than wizards, due to the lack of extra feats, or enhancements to improve their DCs, yet they have one fourth the AOE instakill capacity. Would you consider reducing this timer to 30 seconds to bring it more in line with wail?

Dolphious
06-08-2012, 04:40 PM
Just thinking out loud here, about some existing raids:

ToD - As a caster I usually get orthon duty. After the 2nd or 3rd Orthon my DC would start to get unreilable.

LoB - end fight, a PM can take out a few mobs, then no longer can reliably kill mobs.

Shroud - a PM can clear one portal probably before being unable to continue.

So a party leader has the option of taking additional casters and have them alternate kills here, or not take any casters and just go all melee and maybe pick up a bard for haste.

Or you could, ya know, cast a different kind of spell while you're on a soft timer....

maddmatt70
06-08-2012, 04:42 PM
Does death magic-2 dc include implosion? It should honestly because FVS and clerics also culprits in this.

Lawliet
06-08-2012, 04:42 PM
Don't know if others had suggested this, but could u implement a system similar to a lot of druid enhancement and black dragon armor. So the haunting has a lesser chance to activate when u kill a mob that has a lower cr than u. Because there are a lot of places where a bunch of low level bats or stuff spawn activating alert or other consequences and needs to be done quickly with, like bat wave in vod.

Armus
06-08-2012, 04:42 PM
Have to add this point, a-2 per mob killed is going to be crazy when I cast wail in the middle of a pack of rats. Wail and similar spells are made to clear large groups of mobs. The minus should apply per spell and have a cap. each debuff from said spell should have its own timer.

Eladrin
06-08-2012, 04:44 PM
I think the goal is for you to bring some friends, or use different tactics than just wail all the time.

This change still lets you use wail at full (or near full) power for certain situations, but no longer for ALL situations.
We want to let you use Wail when you need it, but use some other spells as well. Extremely well geared UberCasters can "play through" the debuff.

Currently we're planning on having it on all of the instant death spells. In theory, single target spells like Finger of Death generally won't build your stack too high since the debuff will be more than half over by the time it's off cooldown, it's AOE effects that will give you a major modifier that will stick around for a while.


Instead of debuffing casters, why aren't melees just made better?
It's very hard to catch up to "press 3 to kill everything in the room". ;) (Which we actually gave melees in the Grandmaster of Flowers tree, with a much longer cooldown than Wail.)


Is thise planned only for epic hard and epic elite?
Currently we're thinking of having it in both Heroic and Epic content for consistency.


I'd be much more comfortable if this new dynamic was also named after a Steven Seagal movie.
Does it have to be a theater release or are the straight-to-video ones fair game too?


I just feel like this, all of this, is punishing people who are successful with their toons, and spent time building them that way.
The intent is for the super-successful ones to be able to shine by:
1) Being successful the first cast.
2) Having a much better chance at being successful on a subsequent casts than the less well geared characters.


Great idea - it's really good because it sound slike the values/durations could be fiddled with, once people see how it plays out.
Yes, there'll be a bit of fiddling to do.


Well, he is not talking about a debuff that stops casting, but one that applies a stacking penalty on death spell DCs, making your spells easier to save against (less effective).
Correct.


On wail where you hit 10 mobs means -20 to DCs for 150 seconds?
-20 for 15 seconds, -18 for 15 seconds, -16 for 15 seconds, and so on.


Doesn't make sense. You guys would be better off increasing the cooldown of death spells. If they are that bad then increase the cooldown and not decrease the dc.
I disagree - if you fail to kill something, then with a long cooldown you simply cannot try again. With a debuff, you can try again, and then you can choose whether or not you want to cast the spell on another target or wait for the debuff to drop. It's much more lenient than a lengthened cooldown.

There are other possibilities for the future as well. One of the recent ideas in the pit is that when we revamp the enhancements, have a few things that improve with your Haunt level. An ability that grants a bonus to Negative Energy Spell Power based on it, or that consumes souls for some effect? That's got to go into the Pale Master tree.

Malshier
06-08-2012, 04:44 PM
Or you could, ya know, cast a different kind of spell while you're on a soft timer....

If you're an ice savant you should cast fire spells when you're on cool down because, ya know, you can cast different spells when you're on timer....

Pale Masters excel at death spells. Asking them to use abilities they're not specialized in is silly. Especially considering the change to spell casting in regard to damage spells. No more superior potency 6 to benefit all your elemental spells. Now you have to carry clickies and gear swap a lot more.

Voldomar
06-08-2012, 04:44 PM
Just thinking out loud here, about some existing raids:

ToD - As a caster I usually get orthon duty. After the 2nd or 3rd Orthon my DC would start to get unreilable.

LoB - end fight, a PM can take out a few mobs, then no longer can reliably kill mobs.

Shroud - a PM can clear one portal probably before being unable to continue.


I didn't think about that.
Haunting sounds better on paper than in actual gameplay

eris2323
06-08-2012, 04:45 PM
So..... we still get penalized for attempting to use our core class abilities?

You know, you might consider buffing melee and ranged - so that they can get within range of stuff, or bring stuff TO them quicker... make them feel useful, instead of how they are now. It's not our fault you didn't program in an ability for fighters to charge faster than haste, and you decided to break archery.

Right now they have nothing. And we have spells. Of course they are envious.

You don't penalize any other classes for using their spells, or abilities...

Will clerics now have a 'all healed out' aura? -10% healing for every person healed? Those mass heals, way too powerful.

I guess it's better than what you had.... but still, it could be better.

Vordax
06-08-2012, 04:46 PM
Or you could, ya know, cast a different kind of spell while you're on a soft timer....

Obviously. But when things need to get dead fast, PM's insta-kill, their DPS ability is no where near as strong as a sorc. So may as well TR to that.

Ape_Man
06-08-2012, 04:47 PM
Does it have to be a theater release or are the straight-to-video ones fair game too?

I'm not that picky.

Malshier
06-08-2012, 04:50 PM
The intent is for the super-successful ones to be able to shine by:
1) Being successful the first cast.
2) Having a much better chance at being successful on a subsequent casts than the less well geared characters.


How well geared do I have to be to pull off a successful circle of death after my wail drops my DC by 12 points? that's basically a -24 to my INT score, since +1 dc requires +2 casting stat.

Can we make it that every time a barbarian killsa mob they get a -2 to their strength score? Every time a fighter trips/stuns/sunders something they get a -2 to their DC for that particular combat tactic? Every time a cleric casts a mass cure spell, they lose -2 wisdom?

LeLoric
06-08-2012, 04:51 PM
We want to let you use Wail when you need it, but use some other spells as well. Extremely well geared UberCasters can "play through" the debuff.

Currently we're planning on having it on all of the instant death spells. In theory, single target spells like Finger of Death generally won't build your stack too high since the debuff will be more than half over by the time it's off cooldown, it's AOE effects that will give you a major modifier that will stick around for a while.



So if I cast finger and then 8 sec later after cooldown is gone I cast finger again, wouldnt it then give me two stacks with a 15 second timeer meaning to get rid of one I have to wait another 15 seconds. This is how all other stacking effects work in game I would consider it to be similar. It either effectively doubles cooldown on finger(8-15 seconds) or it does build the stack too high.

I reiterate the timer on this should be less than finger's cooldown or only apply it to aoe spells.

danotmano1998
06-08-2012, 04:51 PM
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please!!!


Don't nerf heroic levels. Just don't. :mad:

Otherwise, this new proposal is actually WORSE than the last one. :(

Vordax
06-08-2012, 04:51 PM
Stuff...

So why be a PM? A PM will mostly likely always be down 2-8 DC, so why go PM for that extra few points of DC? May as well go sorc, DPS everything and do the occasional wail at a DC similar to a PM after he killed 3 things.

eris2323
06-08-2012, 04:52 PM
Currently we're thinking of having it in both Heroic and Epic content for consistency.



If this is the case, thank you for making my decision to TR out of pale master easier. In other words...

"You just broke it more"

So, Sorc for the DPS, or druid for the obviously overpowered healing with attack spells? :)

Voldomar
06-08-2012, 04:53 PM
Obviously. But when things need to get dead fast, PM's insta-kill, their DPS ability is no where near as strong as a sorc. So may as well TR to that.

Yep.
Sorc's dps doesn't go down after every kill.
Barbarians don't lose 1 rage after 20 kills
Fighters don't lose 1 action boost after X kills.

Oh well, we'll see how it plays out. There might be some unforeseen consequences...

Ladywolf
06-08-2012, 04:54 PM
We want to let you use Wail when you need it, but use some other spells as well. Extremely well geared UberCasters can "play through" the debuff.

Currently we're planning on having it on all of the instant death spells. In theory, single target spells like Finger of Death generally won't build your stack too high since the debuff will be more than half over by the time it's off cooldown, it's AOE effects that will give you a major modifier that will stick around for a while.


It's very hard to catch up to "press 3 to kill everything in the room". ;) (Which we actually gave melees in the Grandmaster of Flowers tree, with a much longer cooldown than Wail.)


Currently we're thinking of having it in both Heroic and Epic content for consistency.


Does it have to be a theater release or are the straight-to-video ones fair game too?


The intent is for the super-successful ones to be able to shine by:
1) Being successful the first cast.
2) Having a much better chance at being successful on a subsequent casts than the less well geared characters.


Yes, there'll be a bit of fiddling to do.


Correct.


-20 for 15 seconds, -18 for 15 seconds, -16 for 15 seconds, and so on.


I disagree - if you fail to kill something, then with a long cooldown you simply cannot try again. With a debuff, you can try again, and then you can choose whether or not you want to cast the spell on another target or wait for the debuff to drop. It's much more lenient than a lengthened cooldown.

There are other possibilities for the future as well. One of the recent ideas in the pit is that when we revamp the enhancements, have a few things that improve with your Haunt level. An ability that grants a bonus to Negative Energy Spell Power based on it, or that consumes souls for some effect? That's got to go into the Pale Master tree.
Since things aren't finalized, can you please confirm whether implosion is excluded since it is not a death spell

Kieri
06-08-2012, 04:54 PM
Hi, I'd just like to point out that while this idea is considerably better than the previous one with the Hard to Kill buff, it still seems to fall short of the two important criteria you raised: not harming weaker casters more than stronger ones and not increasing cooldowns.

A stronger caster is going to be able to, as you put it, "play through" the debuff while a weaker caster might as well give up after a finger of death or two, since their DCs are going to be lower to start with.

Additionally, once you get several stacks of Haunt, you might as well consider it an increased cooldown timer on all your death spells because no one is going to be able to land anything with say 5 stacks of it.

Finally, I really like the idea of giving Pale Masters a buff to negative energy damage the higher their Haunt stack goes. This would allow Pale Masters to kill several monsters with instant kill spells and then switch to being able to do damage with their other granted Pale Master abilities to continue to help. Also, it's just a fun sounding way to handle this and that seems important.

meathook2012
06-08-2012, 04:55 PM
Personally, make it only apply to CoD and wail. FoD isnt "game breaking" like the other two, as you people say.

And I am sure it would be a coding nightmare to make it only apply in epics.

Eladiun
06-08-2012, 04:56 PM
Frankly, these broad sweeping solutions don't work because the approach is fundamentally flawed. DnD has a solution for this, and DDO would too if the devs stopped breaking it.

Melee classes have good Fort, Casters not so much. Archers have good Reflex. Monks, Paladins, and dexer Clerics are very annoying. Leaders are higher level, with stronger saves. Good, balanced campaigns play to that layout.

So...
Undergeared casters can kill many archers, most arcane, and maybe a cleric that's slow on Deathward.
Good casters will take out most archers and arcane, probably a couple melees.
Great casters will take out most stuff, except leaders, Paladins, Monks, and Clerics.

Likewise...
Undergeared casters can hold some melee and archers, Web casters.
Good casters will hold most/all melee and archers.
Great casters will hold all but leaders and casters.

See, not complicated! Very DnD. Middling casters get something, great casters get more, and they still need the party to beat down more troublesome enemies.


That would actually require people to think when playing their caster rather than mash buttons so it'll never work. :rolleyes:

Ladywolf
06-08-2012, 04:57 PM
Symbol of death causing debuff seems a tad much, since its a crazy long timer for it and other symbols. So to get a debuff as well would be a double penalty

eris2323
06-08-2012, 04:57 PM
Personally, make it only apply to CoD and wail. FoD isnt "game breaking" like the other two, as you people say.

And I am sure it would be a coding nightmare to make it only apply in epics.

Actually, they already coded the 'hard to kill' to be epic only; it'd be easier to leave it the same ;)

Stormdum
06-08-2012, 04:57 PM
When a death spell successfully kills one or more targets, the caster acquires a debuff called "Haunting" for each target killed, for a short period of time...
...Haunting is a stacking debuff that lasts 15 seconds and applies a -2 penalty to Death Magic save DC's. [/I]Can you give us some clarification on what you mean by Death magic? For instance, do you mean spells which produce an instant death effect such as Finger of Death, Circle of Death and Wail of the Banshee or do you mean Death Magic as in all spells of the necromancy school? I'm a great fan of using bestow curse, especially on mobs that are attacking a melee target. It allows them to be stunned easier and gives them a penalty to hit which works hand in hand with the new AC system.

Will all of my necromancy spells receive this debuff or only my instantaneous death spells?

janave
06-08-2012, 04:59 PM
Have to add this point, a-2 per mob killed is going to be crazy when I cast wail in the middle of a pack of rats. Wail and similar spells are made to clear large groups of mobs. The minus should apply per spell and have a cap. each debuff from said spell should have its own timer.

So it served its purpose. In my book thats how far it would really go. Tougher enemies deserve some more attention, in form of control, debuff, or mere punches. -- Especially in epics, epic could provide some thrill, not more "Meh".

It makes sense that an epic wizard doesnt bother with a bunch of rats, however taking out say a drow elite squadron is not epic on the opposing side. Of course monster AI could improve as well, and encounter design. More orange named enemies, more hard to reach places, more patrols that actually react to you, not just act like a 3yrs old playing Hide & Seek when they notice something. If the divines in a group see someone drop from a FoD they dont hesitate applying DW etc etc.

kailiea
06-08-2012, 05:00 PM
I really like where this idea is going and I hope something close to this proposal goes live. This certainly offers a greater balance while leaving assassin and monks free to enjoy there current abilities and destinies.


+1

Sgt_Hart
06-08-2012, 05:01 PM
Currently we're thinking of having it in both Heroic and Epic content for consistency.

I'll ignore the rest, as I don't play an arcane, and rarely rely on death effects on my divine.

That all said. For the love of saint pete, Make it "Impact" the player half as much in heroic as in Epic. I.E.: 10 mobs = 60 second time, and -10 DC in epic, needs to be.. 30S / -5 in heroic.

I cannot stress this enough.. Be Gentler on the Heroic's than you are on the epic's. As it stands.. different sort of folks linger in each section here. I may be dead-to-right wrong here, but my person belief is:

The hardcore epic folks will play through -10 for a minute, with grumbling.

The more casual heroic folks.. Will look into a game where the DM isn't out to violate them.

My Doooom-o-meter is about a 2% reading right now, and at its worst it was maybe 5%, but let's be blunt.. you don't housebreak a puppy by putting a round in its head the first time it makes a mess inside. Nor do you ignore its messes, until you find you now own an untrained dog, and only then shoot it dead. I don't care how this is scaled, or phased in, so that players get use to dealing with it.. but please.. no Polar-bear-swimmer-plunges 'eh?

LafoMamone
06-08-2012, 05:01 PM
This would have kept the desired "let people do something in fights, prep monsters with Improved Sunder, and stuff like that", but we decided that it would have excessively harmed casters with low to middling DC's, who would go from being able to occasionally land a death effect to ending up in a situation pretty similar to the original Hard to Kill.
[/I]

Isn't epic difficulty being advertised as being "for the best of the best"? What would a "caster with low to middling DC's" be doing there, I wonder? And yet, this silly feature turns even the best caster into a low to middling DC wreck. 2 minutes is an eternity, and basically precipitates a need to find a hobby alongside playing DDO.

As someone said, there is this false notion that arcanes are so uber that they can solo any epic quest. Truth is that this is the case with a very small fraction of players (at least on Sarlona). Yet you want to balance things by punishing players who have slaved away at perfecting their casters for months.

Dolphious
06-08-2012, 05:02 PM
If you're an ice savant you should cast fire spells when you're on cool down because, ya know, you can cast different spells when you're on timer....

Pale Masters excel at death spells. Asking them to use abilities they're not specialized in is silly. Especially considering the change to spell casting in regard to damage spells. No more superior potency 6 to benefit all your elemental spells. Now you have to carry clickies and gear swap a lot more.

So I'm guessing that you don't use Eladar's to DoT bosses on a ice savant while niac's is on timer? Yeah, that would be completely silly. I'm not saying they should go melee or some other clear weakness, a PM can do just find CCing or nuking, it's not some grave weakness.

Scraap
06-08-2012, 05:02 PM
There are other possibilities for the future as well. One of the recent ideas in the pit is that when we revamp the enhancements, have a few things that improve with your Haunt level. An ability that grants a bonus to Negative Energy Spell Power based on it, or that consumes souls for some effect? That's got to go into the Pale Master tree.

Given that that's looking to be more than half a year or more out at this rate, and that any caster can spec to twisted draconic + magister and close the PM/Sorc DC% gap further (Which in a diminishing vs straight plateau system matters), what are you planning in the mean time for necro AMs, and PMs to differentiate them from a sorc that deals no SLA damage once a mob casts deathward?

LeLoric
06-08-2012, 05:03 PM
Can you give us some clarification on what you mean by Death magic? For instance, do you mean spells which produce an instant death effect such as Finger of Death, Circle of Death and Wail of the Banshee or do you mean Death Magic as in all spells of the necromancy school? I'm a great fan of using bestow curse, especially on mobs that are attacking a melee target. It allows them to be stunned easier and gives them a penalty to hit which works hand in hand with the new AC system.

Will all of my necromancy spells receive this debuff or only my instantaneous death spells?

Im not a dev but I can't see it being necromancy dc's as you say as it hurts non death spells and doesn't catch all death spells. I would geuss its anything capable of instantly killing a mob that can be blocked by deathblock now. Hopefull just spells Id hate to see monks/rogues punished here.

Ertay
06-08-2012, 05:04 PM
I'm not sure I like it the way you proposed, but let me point out the difficulties I see with this:

- The intent is nerfing aoe death, single target death should be kept out of it entirely. After I cast a wail on a group of mobs, chances are good one or two are still left standing. How do I go about finishing them without fod? If I have to blow my pw for this occasion, chances are the time between whails are going to be pretty long...

- admittedly a weaker point, but it would make those death effects comparatively weaker in normal content where stuff dies fast anyway. Introducing a delay that is significantly greater then the 30 seconds between what we have for wail anyway would probably mean that even pms wouldnt bother with any death magic and just plow through stuff via damage. Not really a problem, but... weird.

- mobs getting weaker saves with damage would be contraintuitive for assassins at least, and promote killstealing from others again which seemed to be a direction that's supposed to be avoided.

Cauthey
06-08-2012, 05:04 PM
-20 for 15 seconds, -18 for 15 seconds, -16 for 15 seconds, and so on.

This seems terribly steep. Even the best geared, best twinked pale master wizard would not be able to "push through" this level of debuffing.

Still, with more reasonable numbers, and some kind of ceiling on the debuff, I truly believe that this is the way to meet your goals and the community's concerns.



When you guys get cornered between your own design goals and the needs and desires of the community, the product you and your team manage to come up with is almost always a stroke of genius. Great work!! :D

Malshier
06-08-2012, 05:04 PM
Can you give us some clarification on what you mean by Death magic? For instance, do you mean spells which produce an instant death effect such as Finger of Death, Circle of Death and Wail of the Banshee or do you mean Death Magic as in all spells of the necromancy school? I'm a great fan of using bestow curse, especially on mobs that are attacking a melee target. It allows them to be stunned easier and gives them a penalty to hit which works hand in hand with the new AC system.

Will all of my necromancy spells receive this debuff or only my instantaneous death spells?

It's stated as being a -2 to your Death Magic DCs. To me that says anything from the necromancy school (bestow curse, symbol of death, undeath to death, necrotic ray, the necrotic SLAs) will all have their DCs lowered.

I guess we'll see how they clarify this.

justagame
06-08-2012, 05:04 PM
Please, please don't do this. The one silver lining from the original change was "oh well, I only have to deal with this in epic hard/elite."

Now, you're ruining ALL content for instakills. Whenever you guys have made changes impacting 1-19 content due to epic issues, IMO it has weakened the game overall, and unnecessarily so. And the impact is never incremental, it's huge. Vorpals went from OP to junk, just like that. Similarly, you're taking level 9 spells, supposedly the most powerful spells in the game, and turning them into toys. Wasn't increasing the cooldowns enough (talking about 1-19 content here)?

I appreciate the response to feedback, but I believe this is unambiguously worse than the original change. You are hitting an entire class of spells extremely hard, for the sake of issues in a tiny percentage of the content.

Armus
06-08-2012, 05:04 PM
-20 for 15 seconds, -18 for 15 seconds, -16 for 15 seconds, and so on.


I disagree - if you fail to kill something, then with a long cooldown you simply cannot try again. With a debuff, you can try again, and then you can choose whether or not you want to cast the spell on another target or wait for the debuff to drop. It's much more lenient than a lengthened cooldown.

So the debuff does act like a seperate event per mob. A good wail however will knock a pm out for about a minute. There still needs to be a hard cap.

I walk into a room of 10 mobs, wail and kill 8. On normal even this would drop my dc to a 30 and I wouldn't be able to FoD effectively for 60 seconds - at a dc of 38. Seems a bit harsh though I like the principal. The timer needs to be reduced to 10 seconds or less per tickoff.

Vordax
06-08-2012, 05:04 PM
Isn't epic difficulty being advertised as being "for the best of the best"?

This is not true after the update, epic now just refers to quests for level 20 and over. Epic casual and epic normal are expected to be able to be ran solo or by undergeared players so that they can get to level 25. Best of the best would be for epic-elite only.

darkrune
06-08-2012, 05:05 PM
We want to let you use Wail when you need it, but use some other spells as well. Extremely well geared UberCasters can "play through" the debuff.

even well geared PM's still get a huge huge disadvantage after a single wail at -2 per kill stacking... 60--> 40--> 42--> 44--> 46...--> 60 = 150 seconds at less than ideal. Assuming that you toss another then it is 60--> 40--> 42--> 44--> 24--> 60 in like 10 minutes for only 2 spells. going to be a lot of useless PM's out there in raids still... perhaps you can lower it to -1 per kill and install a hard cap even around -10 or 15 if you really must.


Currently we're planning on having it on all of the instant death spells. In theory, single target spells like Finger of Death generally won't build your stack too high since the debuff will be more than half over by the time it's off cooldown, it's AOE effects that will give you a major modifier that will stick around for a while.

fine with this if change above happens... -1 and hard cap.



It's very hard to catch up to "press 3 to kill everything in the room". ;) (Which we actually gave melees in the Grandmaster of Flowers tree, with a much longer cooldown than Wail.)

So if you dont want us to kill everything then why did you add wiz/sorc in the game if you look at core D&D rules you know mages get more Bad Arse as they get to higher levels and especially epics... they sacrifice early levels where melee rules to rule at end game. You have built in the necessity for the melees by creating mini bosses and bosses (orange, red and purple names) that there is no "easy" way a single caster can kill without resources and/or a great build.


Currently we're thinking of having it in both Heroic and Epic content for consistency.

Please only install this in Epics specifically hard and elite as originally planned... dont ruin all content for our PMs.


The intent is for the super-successful ones to be able to shine by:
1) Being successful the first cast.
2) Having a much better chance at being successful on a subsequent casts than the less well geared characters.

Only works if there is a hard cap.


-20 for 15 seconds, -18 for 15 seconds, -16 for 15 seconds, and so on.


see first point about 60--> 40--> 42--> 44--> 24... ten minute wait--> 60

perhaps hard cap and shorter timer -1 for 10 seconds that way a wail only lasts about a minute versus three.


I disagree - if you fail to kill something, then with a long cooldown you simply cannot try again. With a debuff, you can try again, and then you can choose whether or not you want to cast the spell on another target or wait for the debuff to drop. It's much more lenient than a lengthened cooldown.


The debuff if not capped is WORSE than a long cooldown as there is no way that it will land until you have allowed it to reboot.


There are other possibilities for the future as well. One of the recent ideas in the pit is that when we revamp the enhancements, have a few things that improve with your Haunt level. An ability that grants a bonus to Negative Energy Spell Power based on it, or that consumes souls for some effect? That's got to go into the Pale Master tree.

I love the compromise but there is still a LOT of work/thoughts that need to be changed to make this viable. (read hard cap, -1 vs -2, decreased time)

Malshier
06-08-2012, 05:05 PM
So I'm guessing that you don't use Eladar's to DoT bosses on a ice savant while niac's is on timer? Yeah, that would be completely silly. I'm not saying they should go melee or some other clear weakness, a PM can do just find CCing or nuking, it's not some grave weakness.

I was going to reply in a serious way to your post, but I LOl'd at your word choice given the subject of the thread :D

DeafeningWhisper
06-08-2012, 05:05 PM
Currently we're thinking of having it in both Heroic and Epic content for consistency.

And here you where doing so well... You realize that now Haunting is a bigger nerf then Hard to Kill right? Insta-kills are gone from useless in epics quests but only on hard/elite to severely harder to use in all content.

Just have it apply to the same things Hard to Kill, hard epic and elite epic please.

Hokiewa
06-08-2012, 05:06 PM
Isn't epic difficulty being advertised as being "for the best of the best"? What would a "caster with low to middling DC's" be doing there, I wonder? And yet, this silly feature turns even the best caster into a low to middling DC wreck. 2 minutes is an eternity, and basically precipitates a need to find a hobby alongside playing DDO.

As someone said, there is this false notion that arcanes are so uber that they can solo any epic quest. Truth is that this is the case with a very small fraction of players (at least on Sarlona). Yet you want to balance things by punishing players who have slaved away at perfecting their casters for months.

Pretty valid. It's even more counter-intuitive to players with low to middling DCs running Epic Normal. They should tweak it slightly for Epic Hard/Elite but in Normal content with average casters it's a severe punishment as the original "Hard to Kill" had no affect on epic normal.

Odd.

danotmano1998
06-08-2012, 05:06 PM
Currently we're thinking of having it in both Heroic and Epic content for consistency.

Jebediah's jumped up fargin christmas!!

So now my wiz can not only be marginally viable in Epic Hard and Elites, but in every quest?

Thanks. :mad: :(

I'm practically speechless. Ok, well maybe not, but what I want to write I can't post.
*sigh*

At least if this was relegated to epic hard/elite I could just avoid those on that class. Now I'm going to be TR'ing into a sorc who can actually use their prestige class to kill things WITHOUT being penalized.

irivan
06-08-2012, 05:07 PM
We want to let you use Wail when you need it, but use some other spells as well. Extremely well geared UberCasters can "play through" the debuff.

Currently we're planning on having it on all of the instant death spells. In theory, single target spells like Finger of Death generally won't build your stack too high since the debuff will be more than half over by the time it's off cooldown, it's AOE effects that will give you a major modifier that will stick around for a while.


It's very hard to catch up to "press 3 to kill everything in the room". ;) (Which we actually gave melees in the Grandmaster of Flowers tree, with a much longer cooldown than Wail.)


Currently we're thinking of having it in both Heroic and Epic content for consistency.


Does it have to be a theater release or are the straight-to-video ones fair game too?


The intent is for the super-successful ones to be able to shine by:
1) Being successful the first cast.
2) Having a much better chance at being successful on a subsequent casts than the less well geared characters.


Yes, there'll be a bit of fiddling to do.


Correct.


-20 for 15 seconds, -18 for 15 seconds, -16 for 15 seconds, and so on.


I disagree - if you fail to kill something, then with a long cooldown you simply cannot try again. With a debuff, you can try again, and then you can choose whether or not you want to cast the spell on another target or wait for the debuff to drop. It's much more lenient than a lengthened cooldown.

There are other possibilities for the future as well. One of the recent ideas in the pit is that when we revamp the enhancements, have a few things that improve with your Haunt level. An ability that grants a bonus to Negative Energy Spell Power based on it, or that consumes souls for some effect? That's got to go into the Pale Master tree.

Eladrin you really are opening up a can of worms with all of this. Not only are you essentially punishing an entire class in the game, but you are essentially encouraging people to swap out to Sorcerer.

My question: Will sorcerers who can spam a few Chain Lightnings for thousands of points of damage in a very short period of time, and kill 20, 30, 40 monsters in a row, will they suffer haunting as well?

Justification: Since this is happening to Wizards because, melee's feel like they cannot contribute, what happens when Wizard players feel that way, then swap to Sorc, and then Melee's still feel that way? Will we blast them with haunting to? Because if you are not going to hit them with this debuff then it is unfair. After all Mass death is, Mass death.

So if you are going to implement this, then I suggest you do it for anyone who successfully kills X number of mobs, in X time. Or you will have accomplished nothing.

My suggestion: Apply a simple metric with a hard cap, and then apply it to any character that manages to kill any host of monsters within a set time frame, this way you aren't just busting one class, the hard cap should be no more than -10, per stack, and the timer should be 10 seconds.

Summary: I really do feel like all of this is punishment for being successful. When Pale Master first launched, for a very long time, I was one of the very few who endorsed it and played, came up with gear combinations to make it work, and demonstrated its success to a large audience on Khyber. This was when it was still so loaded with bugs that no one wanted to play it. Over time as it got improved more people came along. Now it is a staple, and the reason that many people even play the game. I understand your need to balance the class vs the content, but balancing DnD classes vs other DnD classes takes away from the fantasy of the setting. Was Elminster balanced vs. Drzzt? I understand the game needs to be fun for Melee characters as well to make your business plan work, but lets be real here, most of the Characters that are really capable of the kind of dungeon destruction that some of the top players are capable of is a small percentile matter. So in reality you are not just punishing a class, but you are punishing a very small group of players in the base.

Thank you for your time.

VorpalKnight
06-08-2012, 05:08 PM
We're still working out details, but right now, Haunting is a stacking debuff that lasts 15 seconds and applies a -2 penalty to Death Magic save DC's. It decrements by 1 stack whenever the timer runs out.

This seems pretty balanced, if it was -1 dc it will just go back to how we run epics now with them killing everything, -1 is not enough detriment, they want Mass Death spells to not be a "O ****" spell, but they also don't want them to be used always when the cooldown is up, making intelligent use of them important.

Making Yellow named mobs only be instant killed when they reach a certain % of hp could go well with this too.

The idea of diminishing returns for mass death spells so that they wouldn't be spammed, leaving melees with almost nothing to do and death spells having their own separate save was nothing new, I was speaking about it years ago. To be honest that would be the common sense approach, especially death having their own separate save that is not based on fort, that would not leave fortitude so bloated so that assassinate, quivering palm and especially tactical feats would land more reliably.

Stormdum
06-08-2012, 05:09 PM
What is the ETA on Haunting being testable on Lama? I'd like to go in and try these changes myself so that I may provide accounts of my first hand experience rather than speculative rant and banter.

andepans
06-08-2012, 05:09 PM
Haunting neither accomplishes the goal of making melees useful nor making it difficult for high-DC casters to steamroll epic content. All Haunting does is slow the steamroller down. The players' solution to Haunting will be to get a second steamroller or to AFK after clearing each stationary, tidy group of mobs featured in pretty much every epic quest.

Haunting leaves melees rather useless. Rooms will still be cleared by pressing "3." That's why I prefer the original Hard to Kill style mechanic. I apologize if someone has already posted a similar sentiment, I admit I have not read all 400 pages of commentary on the U14 patch notes.

dwelsh99
06-08-2012, 05:10 PM
I like it... if

1) Physical death (not magic) is unaffected (vorpals, monks, assassins)
2) The amount of the haunting is not based on the number of kills, but rather on the HP of the kills (such as -1 DC & 1 sec per 1,000 hp or so, just as an example). This way killing a bunch of rats doesn't haunt someone quite as much
3) There is a cool animation to go with it, I recommend something like this:

(or maybe use miniature spectre/wraith models circling the head.)

this is good stuff...

#2 makes sense - the more life I drain the more it takes out of me

eris2323
06-08-2012, 05:10 PM
Jebediah's jumped up fargin christmas!!

So now my wiz can not only be marginally viable in Epic Hard and Elites, but in every quest?

Thanks. :mad: :(

I'm practically speechless. Ok, well maybe not, but what I want to write I can't post.
*sigh*

At least if this was relegated to epic hard/elite I could just avoid those on that class. Now I'm going to be TR'ing into a sorc who can actually use their prestige class to kill things WITHOUT being penalized.

Totally agree. Even worse than before; so most will TR.... and some will choose druid, of course. A new pay-class.

Turbine still wins and makes money.

Bad form.

Ertay
06-08-2012, 05:11 PM
Im not a dev but I can't see it being necromancy dc's as you say as it hurts non death spells and doesn't catch all death spells. I would geuss its anything capable of instantly killing a mob that can be blocked by deathblock now. Hopefull just spells Id hate to see monks/rogues punished here.

Interesting point btw, how about giving us something to do with the necro dcs we have outside of instantkilling stuff then? A fear sla comes to mind, that would give us both a reason to get spell pen and provide something thematically appropriate for the different forms even (zombie would fear a single mob in melee range, vampire could charm, wraith would.. curse maybe, lich would get aoe fear). This all of course under the assumption that fear would be reworked to have mobs just cower in place instead of crawling around, though without the double damage mass hold gets to keep an incentive to go enchant/archmage.

voodoogroves
06-08-2012, 05:12 PM
Totally agree. Even worse than before; so most will TR.... and some will choose druid, of course. A new pay-class.

Turbine still wins and makes money.

Bad form.

I'm kicking myself for not having TR'd my wizard already, but I do have 4 freaking leveling TRs right now.

Er. Hold the phone. I just capped my arti ... that means only 3 TRs currently underway. Time to move the wizzy?

Scraap
06-08-2012, 05:12 PM
Jebediah's jumped up fargin christmas!!

So now my wiz can not only be marginally viable in Epic Hard and Elites, but in every quest?

Thanks. :mad: :(

I'm practically speechless. Ok, well maybe not, but what I want to write I can't post.
*sigh*

At least if this was relegated to epic hard/elite I could just avoid those on that class. Now I'm going to be TR'ing into a sorc who can actually use their prestige class to kill things WITHOUT being penalized.

If you dislike the mechanic, argue against the mechanic. Don't give them an out that punishes the rest of us that like to push ourselves.

Jasparion
06-08-2012, 05:12 PM
Please, please don't do this. The one silver lining from the original change was "oh well, I only have to deal with this in epic hard/elite."

Now, you're ruining ALL content for instakills.

Maximised and Empowered blasting spells are instakills on Normal. For Hard, you may need an Acid Rain/Wall of Fire/Ice Storm as well.

This change doesnt stop you mass killing stuff, it just slows you down a little.

Malshier
06-08-2012, 05:13 PM
And to think I just used a stone on my wizzy to speed past his 3rd life. If I had known, it could have been a sorc life. Or FvS. Or anything but wizard.

GwenJynx
06-08-2012, 05:13 PM
I would like to see Haunting implemented as a buff on monsters.
Something like Haunting X: Killing this monster with death magic leaves a haunting reminder in the casters mind.

This would mean it could be used in different ways. Only giving it to certain monsters to begin with, such as not giving it to mass trash monsters like bats.

Also by making it Haunting X you can dial in the right debuff to give at certain levels. In heroic make it Haunting 1 giving a -1 debuff for however many seconds. Then in epics you can make it a mix of Haunting 1 and 2 depending on the difficulty.

I just like the idea of giving it more options so the balance of it can be adjusted at different levels.

DeafeningWhisper
06-08-2012, 05:13 PM
Haunting leaves melees rather useless.

If you're a melee PM yes, otherwise I don't see how this affects melees.

Oh and it was never about making melees useful but limit the amount of insta-kills.

Hard to Kill made SORCS more useful not melees, not by a long shot.

Malshier
06-08-2012, 05:14 PM
Maximised and Empowered blasting spells are instakills on Normal. For Hard, you may need an Acid Rain/Wall of Fire/Ice Storm as well.

This change doesnt stop you mass killing stuff, it just slows you down a little.

It also makes it much less mana efficient. I'm not a sorc. I'm not built for spell DPS. I have a finite spell pool much smaller than my sorc friends.

Hokiewa
06-08-2012, 05:14 PM
this is good stuff...

#2 makes sense - the more life I drain the more it takes out of me

I get your point, and that would make some sense if it was an AM or sorc. A palemaster transmutes form into undead, haunting makes little sense. I'm not completely against it for epic hard/elite with some tweaking but for epic normal/heroic the cure is exponentially worse.

Masadique
06-08-2012, 05:14 PM
Hey! Melee have this same debuff, and it's been ok forever. We kill something, fifteen seconds later, we kill something again.

Kieri
06-08-2012, 05:15 PM
I'd like to point out that in order to combat this change if it goes live, people are going to rush through quests, pick up a hefty group of monsters and then wail them all down at once. The reason for this is because wail will allow people to kill the most monsters with one spell before the debuff hits them. If the intention was to prevent behavior like this, then I don't think these changes are going to accomplish that.

Voldomar
06-08-2012, 05:16 PM
So if you are going to implement this, then I suggest you do it for anyone who successfully kills X number of mobs, in X time. Or you will have accomplished nothing.



Don't forget a stackable -5% to hit rolls. Just to even the playing field....

eris2323
06-08-2012, 05:18 PM
Must! Finish! Last! Wiz Life! Before! This! Goes! Live!

I better go play now. I want no part of this after the update.

irivan
06-08-2012, 05:19 PM
Don't forget a stackable -5% to hit rolls. Just to even the playing field....

Yes and to further expand it, it should also shave Sorcerer, and Favored soul Damage equally, I mean if you kill 10 mobs with a Blade Barrier, or if you kill 10 mob in 3 seconds with a chain lightning its all the same right? So they should suffer a -5% stacking penalty to damage as well. Barbarians who cleave a whole set of mobs to death should take the same in a damage penalty too.

voodoogroves
06-08-2012, 05:20 PM
So, how will this affect (or not) other death/instakill effects

- Quivering Palm?
- Assassinate?
- Smiting / Disrupting / Banishing / etc. ... give them saves again and let them work regardless of HP?
- Trap the soul (not a death effect, so shouldn't be impacted right?)
- Vorpals? Chance to let vorpals work and lift the freaking HP cap (say, give it a save DC of 35 or 40)?
- Nightmares (terror, etc.)
- Nightmare Guard?
- Void 4? (shouldn't, right?)
- Prismatic (shouldn't, right?)
- Single target spells vs multi-target?
- Undeath to death affected? Instead of "haunting" are we "blessed"?
- Any ED abilities (like the flower-show thing)?

Tid12
06-08-2012, 05:23 PM
So, how will this affect (or not) other death/instakill effects

- Quivering Palm?
- Assassinate?
- Smiting / Disrupting / Banishing / etc. ... give them saves again and let them work regardless of HP?
- Trap the soul (not a death effect, so shouldn't be impacted right?)
- Vorpals? Chance to let vorpals work and lift the freaking HP cap (say, give it a save DC of 35 or 40)?
- Nightmares (terror, etc.)
- Nightmare Guard?
- Void 4? (shouldn't, right?)
- Prismatic (shouldn't, right?)
- Single target spells vs multi-target?
- Undeath to death affected? Instead of "haunting" are we "blessed"?
- Any ED abilities (like the flower-show thing)?

Not everyone plays a PM and this thread, right now, is just talking about them. The previous Hard to kill affected everyone, what about this one?

Can we have an official answer to these questions? Specially for Assassinate and Quivering Palm?

janave
06-08-2012, 05:23 PM
Eladrin you really are opening up a can of worms with all of this. Not only are you essentially punishing an entire class in the game, but you are essentially encouraging people to swap out to Sorcerer.

My question: Will sorcerers who can spam a few Chain Lightnings for thousands of points of damage in a very short period of time, and kill 20, 30, 40 monsters in a row, will they suffer haunting as well?


Just to get some facts right before we go over the roof :).

Chain Lightning:
- Relatively short AOE range.
- 1+4 targets on a perfect arc. Terrain can really mess it up.
- With maxamp heighten quicken it costs = 25b+25m+15e+15h+10q = 90sp / cast

On a well geared Sorcerer you need about 2,5 spell crit hits on them to take out the average hp monsters. Monsters with evasion may completely negate it. To my experience it takes several casts to turn all the average epic mobs into ash.

Additionally it needs a lot more kiting, more risk taking, more damage mitigating from incoming hits.

lugoman
06-08-2012, 05:23 PM
How about just giving a random number of trash mobs the hard to kill buff? Say 10% on norm epic, 30% hard and 60% elite?

This way the quest will play somewhat differently each time you play it.

Lithic
06-08-2012, 05:24 PM
So, how will this affect (or not) other death/instakill effects

- Quivering Palm?
- Assassinate?
- Smiting / Disrupting / Banishing / etc. ... give them saves again and let them work regardless of HP?
- Trap the soul (not a death effect, so shouldn't be impacted right?)
- Vorpals? Chance to let vorpals work and lift the freaking HP cap (say, give it a save DC of 35 or 40)?
- Nightmares (terror, etc.)
- Nightmare Guard?
- Void 4? (shouldn't, right?)
- Prismatic (shouldn't, right?)
- Single target spells vs multi-target?
- Undeath to death affected? Instead of "haunting" are we "blessed"?
- Any ED abilities (like the flower-show thing)?

Almost your entire list has severe limits already. Smiting and such don't work over 1khp, the rest require either a build up of some resource, or special circumstances, or have long enough cooldowns that you aren't likely to instakill a mob more than once every 15 seconds anyway. The exception is terror, which is brokenly overpowered and a nerf to it is likely incoming.

mutilador
06-08-2012, 05:26 PM
Congrats casters, who said that cry like a baby dont work?

I will try it.

Nysrock
06-08-2012, 05:26 PM
Sounds like a great compromise to me. Still lets people insta-kill and yet will let the whole party do something too.

And from what I see this only affects the DCs of the insta-kill so they should should be able to cast Mass Hold and let the melees beat them down.

Tid12
06-08-2012, 05:26 PM
Almost your entire list has severe limits already. Smiting and such don't work over 1khp, the rest require either a build up of some resource, or special circumstances, or have long enough cooldowns that you aren't likely to instakill a mob more than once every 15 seconds anyway. The exception is terror, which is brokenly overpowered and a nerf to it is likely incoming.

Still need answers. Assassinate? Is this affected or not? I seriously hope not.

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 05:27 PM
First, it's refreshing to see that when hot issue such as this rears it's head, the dev-team has the resources to focus and respond.

Second, it is a step in the right direction, although as presented it requires a reduction in both the amount of the penalty and the duration of the debuff.

Third, there is an issue that needs to be addressed: the myth that most PM's or necro-focused AM's can sweep through epic content and lay low virtually all of the content, with little challenge. This is simply not true, and really only applies to the top percentile of necro-focused arcanes.

Quite frankly, if a player has invested enough lives into an arcane to have +9 spell pen (3 x wizard and 3 x favoured soul past lives), the maximum possible intelligence (i.e. completionist) and farmed out the best possible gear (+4 intelligence tome, tier 3 alchemicals...) then they had better be dominating content, for two reasons.

First, it is consistent with the lore that comprises the foundation of the game - that at the highest levels, spell casters are indeed the most powerful.

Second, if there is no tangible benefit to investing countless hours TR'ing and raiding and farming gear, then where is the underlying motivation to continue?

With the epic destinies, It is true. Sorry. Think about it. 60 DC Wail of the banshee. That is almost NO fail. The expansion changes the playing field so much.

danotmano1998
06-08-2012, 05:28 PM
How about just some good monster design?

Throw a couple of immune skeletal casters in there now and then on epics. Maybe a few more minibosses.

Good encounter designs > Poor mechanic changes. every. single. time.

DeafeningWhisper
06-08-2012, 05:29 PM
With the epic destinies, It is true. Sorry. Think about it. 60 DC Wail of the banshee. That is almost NO fail. The expansion changes the playing field so much.

I would agree if it only affected Epics hard/elite like Hard to Kill, but I won't have 60 dc on my Wail in heroic lvls...

Lithic
06-08-2012, 05:29 PM
Still need answers. Assassinate? Is this affected or not? I seriously hope not.

I'm saying it won't matter because how often do you get the chance to hit assassinate twice within 15 seconds before the counter reverts to zero?

Tid12
06-08-2012, 05:31 PM
I'm saying it won't matter because how often do you get the chance to hit assassinate twice within 15 seconds before the counter reverts to zero?

That's true but still needs an answer :P I think Assassinate's DC is 15 secs exactly? Can't remember now, too tired.

And if you kill 2 mobs, you get -4 DC for 30 secs, so it does matter.

EatSmart
06-08-2012, 05:35 PM
Since your cooldowns wouldn't be longer than they are now, it would be up to you whether you wanted to chain death effects together, debuff opponents with spells like Energy Drain or work with a character with Improved Sunder to overcome the Haunting, or save your Wail for strategic moments when it will have the biggest effect.


Much happier with changes that follow this philosophy. Still munching on the implications, so a longer post may come later. Some quick observations though:

- Necro Archmage and Pale Master could do with some tools within their PREs to manage haunting a little more dynamically as it's their signature function. Maybe some once per rest clickies like "shoo, ghosties!" where haunting is suppressed for 30 seconds, but any kills made in that 30 seconds via deathstuff count double.

- It might make sense to have haunting decay non-linearly. ie:
Stage 1 (1-2 kills): Stack decays by 1 kill in 6 seconds
Stage 2 (3-8 kills): Stack decays as current
Stage 3 (8-16 kills): Stack decays slower than current
Stage 4 (17+ kills): Stay decays by 1 kill in 3 seconds

- Haunting should probably take hitdice into account in some way. Maybe score haunting by hitdice, calculate its effect as HD divided by necro caster level, and have it recover as 2x necro caster level per time interval. (but implosion is evocation! arg! *headache*)

Vhel
06-08-2012, 05:42 PM
Hi Eladrin,

First, thanks for taking the community feedback into account. It's good to know that things aren't falling on deaf ears. However, like a few people have mentioned in this thread (and others), it seems like you're putting a lot of time and effort into crafting a totally new system when you don't have to, and putting in a solution that is overly complicated.

Instead of focusing on balancing the player abilities, why not simply balance the content in the traditional sense of the word - balance the types of encounters so that there are a variety of enemy types and resistances so that both melee and casters shine?

The real problem seems to be that insta-kill spells are too powerful because they work against too many enemies.

One of the best parts of DDO, and what separates it from so many other MMO's out there, is that it requires using different tactics, strategies, and weapons depending on the situation and encounter. Play to your strengths! Instead of putting in a complicated system, simply put in a wider variety of enemy types. Mix it up! A few people have already mentioned EChrono as an example.

Please reconsider the current Haunting change, and the changes to insta-kills in general. You already have mechanics in place to "balance" the situation...simply be creative with how you structure encounters!

Thanks.

- A long time fan of DDO

Ziindarax
06-08-2012, 05:43 PM
Will Deathblock items and Deathward spell be left as is? I hope so, as I think nerfing those would only severely penalize classes/builds that have weak saves. :/

Best defense against griefers (both AI and players) who spam negative levels is deathward, which can be dispelled (and thus, no reason to really change deathward mechanics... Deathblock can also be circumvented by mindflayers, slayer arrows, and raw damage so it's only really useful against instant-death effects).

Other than that, I somewhat agree that Haunted would be a better method of curtailing death magic spam than Hard to kill. In fact, I think there is a way to get the best of both worlds; Casters can kill things on epic hard/elite, but Haunted increases incrementally with each mob killed within the time frame of the first debuff. Killing the first enemy would have an effect lasting 5 seconds, but if you round up 6-10 mobs and they all die from an AoE death effect, then that debuff should last 2-5 minutes at a minimum (maybe 15 at most), or have the grade of the debuff increase considerably with each stack (perhaps to the point that instant death spells suffer a longer cooldown as a result).

Thus, the rest of the party has an opportunity to contribute to the quest, but the caster could still contribute with instant kills.


Thank you for the feedback on the Hard to Kill buff. We're planning on making changes to it based on your comments.

Instant death effects are a powerful tool that are difficult to strike perfect balance with. We've wavered over time from completely unusable (old Epic blanket Death Wards) to excessively strong (the current live situation). When they're completely unusable, that's a bad thing because it decreases the number of options you have to deal with encounters. When they're too strong, they likewise decrease the number of viable options that exist, and can dramatically reduce the enjoyment of other characters in your party.

Hard to Kill was intended to be a system that would put some restrictions on death spells, dropping once the enemy was reduced to half health, in an attempt to promote teamwork between casters and the rest of the party. We intended for this to turn death spells into an "execute" sort of mechanic - the party could take the monster down to half health, and then a Pale Master (or other caster) could finish it off.

The system turned out to be too restrictive, and we're planning on making changes to it.

In the Hard to Kill thread, there was a suggestion to use a system similar to the change we made to Saves vs. Poison. We considered this internally - giving players and monsters a bonus to Saves vs. Death Magic* (but not physical death effects like Assassinate) if they were at high health, and a penalty if they were low on health (on death's door!) This would not have included the "don't fail saves on a natural 1". Monsters on different difficulty settings would have had different save bonuses.

This would have kept the desired "let people do something in fights, prep monsters with Improved Sunder, and stuff like that", but we decided that it would have excessively harmed casters with low to middling DC's, who would go from being able to occasionally land a death effect to ending up in a situation pretty similar to the original Hard to Kill.

We want you to be able to have the "moment" of killing a bunch of creatures with a death spell, but don't want to leave the rest of the party with little to do. We want to control how often you're clearing rooms of all enemies with a few quick casts of a spell, but don't want to have even longer cooldowns (which again unfairly harm weaker casters the most, since their death effects are less likely to actually stick). We realized that the key was to let you use your death effects, but apply restrictions only when they're used successfully.

Our current idea is as follows:

When a death spell successfully kills one or more targets, the caster acquires a debuff called "Haunting" for each target killed, for a short period of time.

We're still working out details, but right now, Haunting is a stacking debuff that lasts 15 seconds and applies a -2 penalty to Death Magic save DC's. It decrements by 1 stack whenever the timer runs out.

We may consider a small buff on Hard/Elite/Epic Hard/Epic Elite difficulties to Saves vs. Death Magic for players and monsters at full or very high health, as well as a penalty at very low health, but at much smaller numbers than we were considering previously, when that was considered as a standalone system prior to the implementation of Hard to Kill.

This system essentially would create a "soft cooldown" that is triggered primarily by mass death effects, but still lets a caster Finger of Death a creature or two in fights. It has no effect unless you succeed, so weaker casters aren't harmed by it, and in emergencies even if your Haunted stack is high, Power Word: Kill can still strike down an enemy. (Its effectiveness is not reduced because it doesn't have a saving throw.)

Since your cooldowns wouldn't be longer than they are now, it would be up to you whether you wanted to chain death effects together, debuff opponents with spells like Energy Drain or work with a character with Improved Sunder to overcome the Haunting, or save your Wail for strategic moments when it will have the biggest effect.

We're still working out the details on this, and will then send it on to the engineers. Let us know what you think! Suggestions for improvement are welcome.

* I love making first edition references.

irivan
06-08-2012, 05:43 PM
Just to get some facts right before we go over the roof :).

Chain Lightning:
- Relatively short AOE range.
- 1+4 targets on a perfect arc. Terrain can really mess it up.
- With maxamp heighten quicken it costs = 25b+25m+15e+15h+10q = 90sp / cast

On a well geared Sorcerer you need about 2,5 spell crit hits on them to take out the average hp monsters. Monsters with evasion may completely negate it. To my experience it takes several casts to turn all the average epic mobs into ash.

Additionally it needs a lot more kiting, more risk taking, more damage mitigating from incoming hits.

Are you kidding me, you are acting like I haven't played this game for the last 6 years since the first beta, save that annoying attempt of a distraction for some one you think it will actually work on.

Sorc's know exactly what I am talking about, and its not just one spell, its Chain Lighting, followed by their essentially free pre, followed up with another spell of their choice, and they can hit them as fast as it takes for one finger of death to go off.

No, if this happens to Wizards they will be the new kill stealing, round em up and dash em crew, them and FVS with their BB, Comet fall routines.

Pick your poison.

They should all suffer from haunting if it is to be implemented at all.

mwgarn
06-08-2012, 05:44 PM
Im not a fan of waiting around for 2 min (15 sec a tick, assume 8 mobs killed within a short amount of time with CoD and Wail) before I'm able to have decent rolls again... I think -1 to DC for each mob killed and 10 second CD on it at the most, or maybe a 5 second CD on hard and a 10 second on Elite. All spell timers should reset at shrine IMHO even PW:K..

Again not a fan of any of this. But is much better then the Hard to kill that was originally planed.


"We want to control how often you're clearing rooms of all enemies with a few quick casts of a spell"

So what about Sorc that run in and spam a few dmg spells... not that I wan't to see dmg spells nerfed anymore then they are with the micro management of spell power items now... Just saying..

Vengeance777
06-08-2012, 05:47 PM
I don't get it. Why couldn't we just have things as they currently are pre update.

Just let the people who don't like wizards killing more than them run groups without wizards. I don't get why an entire class is being punished to help another classes ego. This is a PVE game not PVP. :confused: I don't mind Pale masters wailing a bunch of trash mobs. Having the action grind to a halt for 2 minutes while we're forced to melee crowd controlled unmoving statues isn't fun for the melee either or the wizard. When on my melees I like having the PM wail the trash or the sorc nuke it, while I have fun meleeing the deathwarded mobs, red names and bosses.

There's so much work going into changes that are not needed. Just have enemy casters in Epic Hard and Elites cast deathward more and add a couple red names every once in a while like Drow Blademasters and Priestesses of Lolth. That's all that's needed to balance out the content..

You guys got it correct with the enemy drow in Update 13. They can cast Deathward on their friends, this forces Pale masters and the party to use some strategy instead of running in and wailing. This is all that's needed if you want to let melee have something to do.

You guys are over thinking this. Its like your trying to fix a leaky faucet by replacing the entire plumbing system when all you have to do is tighten the knob.

The only thing this is going to do is make the party pause while the PM recharges his DCs.

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 05:48 PM
i like this idea. but if you are going to apply it to all levels and all those difficulties maybe it needs to be done differently?

use a 2,000 point system. Where 1,000 is that "hard cap" everybody wants. Now on kills the penalty is


For each mob killed apply the following

DC Penalty = (2000 - (([mob cr] + [char level])) * .01

something like that (needs serious tweaking!) would allow you to apply a penalty that scales with level. But should never work out to be more than -2 dc per death.

now like i said, THAT formula wont work. it would need some of our communities MUCH better number crunchers eye to make right. But something like that would work.

Grace_ana
06-08-2012, 05:49 PM
After reading everything, I'm going to vote with "no, this is a bad idea too, try again."

I'd really love an explanation from the devs as well as to why they feel the death spells are so incredibly OP. That's just not at all been my experience grouping at end game.

Dawnsfire
06-08-2012, 05:50 PM
Frankly, these broad sweeping solutions don't work because the approach is fundamentally flawed. DnD has a solution for this, and DDO would too if the devs stopped breaking it.

Melee classes have good Fort, Casters not so much. Archers have good Reflex. Monks, Paladins, and dexer Clerics are very annoying. Leaders are higher level, with stronger saves. Good, balanced campaigns play to that layout.

So...
Undergeared casters can kill many archers, most arcane, and maybe a cleric that's slow on Deathward.
Good casters will take out most archers and arcane, probably a couple melees.
Great casters will take out most stuff, except leaders, Paladins, Monks, and Clerics.

Likewise...
Undergeared casters can hold some melee and archers, Web casters.
Good casters will hold most/all melee and archers.
Great casters will hold all but leaders and casters.

See, not complicated! Very DnD. Middling casters get something, great casters get more, and they still need the party to beat down more troublesome enemies.

Call me a traditionalist but I totally agree with the above.

Quarterling
06-08-2012, 05:51 PM
Still lame.

If I manage to take out 6 mobs with 1 wail, my DC drops from 44 (my current on live) to 32. So for 15 seconds, I'd better not try to use FoD or Circle of Death, or risk further degradation of my DC. I guess I can still use PK. And TTS. Wait no. TTS has a CR cap. Nevermind.

I guess this is ok since it won't hurt my implosions.

You say you don't want to hurt casters with low to middling DCs. Well guess what? You just turned everyone into a caster with low to middling DCs.

Yeah, too bad wizards have no other spells at all besides FoD, Circle of Death, PK, and Wail of Banshee.

Oh wait...

Schmoe
06-08-2012, 05:53 PM
Haunting is much better than Hard to Kill, as long as it's tweaked right. The recommendations I've seen that makes sense to me:

1. Reduce stack timeout to 10 seconds
2. Reduce penalty per death to -1

I don't think a hard cap is needed, because the amount of the penalty provides its own dynamic cap.

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 05:53 PM
Im not a fan of waiting around for 2 min (15 sec a tick, assume 8 mobs killed within a short amount of time with CoD and Wail) before I'm able to have decent rolls again... I think -1 to DC for each mob killed and 10 second CD on it at the most, or maybe a 5 second CD on hard and a 10 second on Elite. All spell timers should reset at shrine IMHO even PW:K..

Again not a fan of any of this. But is much better then the Hard to kill that was originally planed.


"We want to control how often you're clearing rooms of all enemies with a few quick casts of a spell"

So what about Sorc that run in and spam a few dmg spells... not that I wan't to see dmg spells nerfed anymore then they are with the micro management of spell power items now... Just saying..

You are thinking Pre Expansion though.
The saves are not being increase from what I have seen. So your 45 DC wail would still see GREAT success in epics. The thing is, if you specialize in DC in the xpac, you will see numbers of 60-65.

So with -8 DC, you would still be sitting at 52-57 DC. That would still be successful. You would have to get up to like 8-12 stacks to start seeing it drop off in effectiveness to a degree that makes it not usable. And honestly even at
45, your Wail would work failry well. It does now even.

I swear you people will not be happy until they remove all the training wheels and allow you to just walk through epics and hit 1 button every 5 or 6 rooms and kill everything. the hardest content should not be designed for 1 single player to decimate while eating doritos and watching american idol with their girlfriend over the phone yapping their ears off and updating their facebook from time to him.

Epic Elite if nothing else should be something that you have to round up a balanced party of elite players to complete. Not something that 1 man just destroys in 20 minutes one afternoon because he was bored and had nothing better to do.

sphagh3
06-08-2012, 05:54 PM
A particularly well timed wail can leave you completely unable to cast death spells for over 3 minutes.

That is a particularly steep penalty in quests that have a great deal of trash (Lords of Dust, Sins of Attrition, Coalescence Chamber, etc.). I personally will adjust my tactics to zerg-gather as large a group as possible before casting my once per shrine Wail.

Please consider a hard limit on the debuffs DC-penalty and/or duration.

Vhel
06-08-2012, 05:54 PM
There's so much work going into changes that are not needed. Just have enemy casters in Epic Hard and Elites cast deathward more and add a couple red names every once in a while like Drow Blademasters and Priestesses of Lolth. That's all that's needed to balance out the content..

You guys got it correct with the enemy drow in Update 13. They can cast Deathward on their friends, this forces Pale masters to use some strategy instead of running in and wailing. This is all that's needed if you want to let melee have something to do.

You guys are over thinking this. Its like your trying to fix a leaky faucet by replacing the entire plumbing system when all you have to do is tighten the knob.

Exactly.

I know the dev team probably doesn't want to go back into every new quest and start tweaking all the encounters, but the potential for unintentionally breaking things seems MUCH less by changing the make-up of enemy encounters than putting in a whole new system to fix one Pre...

Faent
06-08-2012, 05:55 PM
(1) How does this affect Implosion? Is it going to drop your DC over the course of the Implosion? If so, that would totally nerf Implosion.

(2) Which spells does this apply to, exactly?

(3) Which spells does the debuff apply to? If I Wail a group of five mobs, will my Finger DC then be at -10 or worse?

(4) If so, then I have to Finger *before* I wail? That's unacceptable.

(5) The timer seems excessive. It sounds like if I wail 10 mobs, I just got stuck not using any other death spells for something like two minutes. Not cool.

(6) Is something like this still restricted to Epic Hard/Elite only, or were you planning on implementing this across the board?

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 05:57 PM
i personally think they should just set the DC's higher. Epic Elite, should see mobs with saving throws of about 80-85, while Epic Hard mobs would see DC's of about 70-75

Problem solved.

Scraap
06-08-2012, 05:58 PM
You are thinking Pre Expansion though.
The saves are not being increase from what I have seen. So your 45 DC wail would still see GREAT success in epics. The thing is, if you specialize in DC in the xpac, you will see numbers of 60-65.


Screenshot time if you're going to keep repeating that.

DeafeningWhisper
06-08-2012, 05:59 PM
You are thinking Pre Expansion though.
The saves are not being increase from what I have seen. So your 45 DC wail would still see GREAT success in epics. The thing is, if you specialize in DC in the xpac, you will see numbers of 60-65.

So with -8 DC, you would still be sitting at 52-57 DC. That would still be successful. You would have to get up to like 8-12 stacks to start seeing it drop off in effectiveness to a degree that makes it not usable. And honestly even at
45, your Wail would work failry well. It does now even.

I swear you people will not be happy until they remove all the training wheels and allow you to just walk through epics and hit 1 button every 5 or 6 rooms and kill everything. the hardest content should not be designed for 1 single player to decimate while eating doritos and watching american idol with their girlfriend over the phone yapping their ears off and updating their facebook from time to him.

Epic Elite if nothing else should be something that you have to round up a balanced party of elite players to complete. Not something that 1 man just destroys in 20 minutes one afternoon because he was bored and had nothing better to do.

They want to apply this at ALL LEVELS IN ALL DIFFICULTIES not only epic hard and elite, I think a limit to how useless I am while leveling is not too much to ask.

eris2323
06-08-2012, 05:59 PM
You are thinking Pre Expansion though.
I swear you people will not be happy until they remove all the training wheels and allow you to just walk through epics and hit 1 button every 5 or 6 rooms and kill everything. the hardest content should not be designed for 1 single player to decimate while eating doritos and watching american idol with their girlfriend over the phone yapping their ears off and updating their facebook from time to him.


If you've spent so many hours that you can actually do all that? Kudos to you.

Somehow, I don't think the vast majority of the playing population can do that.

danotmano1998
06-08-2012, 05:59 PM
You are thinking Pre Expansion though.

They intend this change to go through on HEROIC levels, not just EPIC.

sphagh3
06-08-2012, 05:59 PM
Circle of Death then Wail of Banshee will no longer be a useful combination.

Casters will dump CoD off their spell list once they can cast Wail. If this was not intended, please consider adding a delay of 1-3 seconds before the haunting takes effect.

HalfORCastrator
06-08-2012, 06:01 PM
I'd first like to say that this solution is much more elegant than "hard to kill". Two thumbs up!

Second, I don't agree with putting this penalty on heroic lvls. Your reasoning doesn't fall in line with your former solution. Why didn't you include hard to kill in heroic lvls? Because you were trying to balance the endgame, and nothing has changed here. I'm joining the "Epic Hard/Elite only" camp. Just keep it in those difficulty settings.


With the epic destinies, It is true. Sorry. Think about it. 60 DC Wail of the banshee. That is almost NO fail. The expansion changes the playing field so much.
Aren't the hard/elite epics untuned right now or something? Ie, hp, saves, dmg of mobs not tuned correctly, overly easy right now?

DeafeningWhisper
06-08-2012, 06:01 PM
(1) How does this affect Implosion? Is it going to drop your DC over the course of the Implosion? If so, that would totally nerf Implosion.

(2) Which spells does this apply to, exactly?

(3) Which spells does the debuff apply to? If I Wail a group of five mobs, will my Finger DC then be at -10 or worse?

(4) If so, then I have to Finger *before* I wail? That's unacceptable.

(5) The timer seems excessive. It sounds like if I wail 10 mobs, I just got stuck not using any other death spells for something like two minutes. Not cool.

(6) Is something like this still restricted to Epic Hard/Elite only, or were you planning on implementing this across the board?

(6) Re-read Eladrin's last post they want to have it at all levels and difficulties for "consistency", you know the same reason you cut of a one legged man's remaining leg "consistency".

Sarnind
06-08-2012, 06:02 PM
This is a good compromise

Autolycus
06-08-2012, 06:03 PM
You are thinking Pre Expansion though.
The saves are not being increase from what I have seen. So your 45 DC wail would still see GREAT success in epics. The thing is, if you specialize in DC in the xpac, you will see numbers of 60-65.

So with -8 DC, you would still be sitting at 52-57 DC. That would still be successful. You would have to get up to like 8-12 stacks to start seeing it drop off in effectiveness to a degree that makes it not usable. And honestly even at
45, your Wail would work failry well. It does now even.

I swear you people will not be happy until they remove all the training wheels and allow you to just walk through epics and hit 1 button every 5 or 6 rooms and kill everything. the hardest content should not be designed for 1 single player to decimate while eating doritos and watching american idol with their girlfriend over the phone yapping their ears off and updating their facebook from time to him.

Epic Elite if nothing else should be something that you have to round up a balanced party of elite players to complete. Not something that 1 man just destroys in 20 minutes one afternoon because he was bored and had nothing better to do.

What about the casting Divines for whom their few main offensive spells are instadeath? They can't get anywhere near the DC of Arcanes. And they're talking about implementing this on all levels, not just Epic Elite. Oh, wait, we don't want Divines offensively casting or fighting, just hjeal me.

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 06:04 PM
I'd first like to say that this solution is much more elegant than "hard to kill". Two thumbs up!

Second, I don't agree with putting this penalty on heroic lvls. Your reasoning doesn't fall in line with your former solution. Why didn't you include hard to kill in heroic lvls? Because you were trying to balance the endgame, and nothing has changed here. I'm joining the "Epic Hard/Elite only" camp. Just keep it in those difficulty settings.


Aren't the hard/elite epics untuned right now or something? Ie, hp, saves, dmg of mobs not tuned correctly, overly easy right now?

No. As far as I am aware, this is how they are intended for release on Live. Epics are not nearly as challenging as they once were. Everyone is screaming DOOOOOM and most have not even tried to run them yet.

varusso
06-08-2012, 06:04 PM
Thank you for the feedback on the Hard to Kill buff. We're planning on making changes to it based on your comments.

<snip>[/I]

Its better but still a bit excessive, if you are actually trying for balance.

* Have ONLY AOE insta-kills generate/be affected by haunting counters. Leave the one-shot kill spells alone; they arent the problem.
* Put a hard-cap on Haunting. An arcane who is just doing his job and contributing could easily be rendered near-useless by the massive DC-debuff if they are necro-specced and their primary focus is to insta-kill stuff.
* Reduce the timer to remove the Haunting counters, or give us some way to USE the counters or get rid of them faster than just standing around with our "Fingers" up our....well you get the idea. Standing around waiting for a timer to expire is BORING and unproductive, not to mention completely counter to having *FUN*.

And just to be clear: this should ONLY be on epic hard and elite. It should NOT be in heroic AT ALL and should NOT be on epic-normal.

Galeria
06-08-2012, 06:04 PM
I'd really love an explanation from the devs as well as to why they feel the death spells are so incredibly OP. That's just not at all been my experience grouping at end game.

Agree. Would love to see the actual stats for existing epics across the worlds and see how big of a problem this really is.

It's entirely possible that I and all the people I run with are just really bad casters that we don't kill every epic mob before anyone else can get there. I know there are a few people who can do this, but I find it hard to believe that it's so very common.

I could definitely be wrong, but the stats should tell us something.

Hokiewa
06-08-2012, 06:05 PM
Yeah, too bad wizards have no other spells at all besides FoD, Circle of Death, PK, and Wail of Banshee.

Oh wait...

This is of course a ridiculous arguement

DeafeningWhisper
06-08-2012, 06:06 PM
No. As far as I am aware, this is how they are intended for release on Live. Epics are not nearly as challenging as they once were. Everyone is screaming DOOOOOM and most have not even tried to run them yet.

LOL, might wanna read a bit more there, epic hard and elite are broken and have been since close Beta 1. The mobs don't scale the way they should, it's a well known fact.

And we are talking about nerfing heroic lvls, not epics.

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 06:07 PM
What about the casting Divines for whom their few main offensive spells are instadeath? They can't get anywhere near the DC of Arcanes. And they're talking about implementing this on all levels, not just Epic Elite. Oh, wait, we don't want Divines offensively casting or fighting, just hjeal me.

If the divines had their way, they would be the healers they ahve always been, the melee of a fighter or barb, the casting damage of a sorc, and the death DC's of a wizard.


That being said, i sadly agree with your point. this will be a devastating debuff on Divines.

Seeing as how they are all "divine" they should be more at home dealing with lost spirits. Maybe divines should get his for half the dc and for half the duration? It would make sense.

OR how about give divines a class feat with a long timer...like maybe 2-3 minutes TOPS, called Exorcism. Or something along those lines. This would in effect, allow them to purge the haunting every few minutes keeping the numbers from getting too high.

Faent
06-08-2012, 06:08 PM
Even the most hardcore casters would stuggle to just plow through that, and you don't want to slow down people needlessly.

No, this is exactly what you want to do. You're on your knees begging Turbine to slow casters down.

Hokiewa
06-08-2012, 06:08 PM
LOL, might wanna read a bit more there, epic hard and elite are broken and have been since close Beta 1. The mobs don't scale the way they should, it's a well known fact.

And we are talking about nerfing heroic lvls, not epics.

Epic normal as well, as the original Hard to Kill only affected epic hard/elite.

Tiemmothi
06-08-2012, 06:09 PM
This is a good compromise

About a good of a compromise as feeding you to a tiger shark instead of a great white shark.

Postumus
06-08-2012, 06:09 PM
When a death spell successfully kills one or more targets, the caster acquires a debuff called "Haunting" for each target killed, for a short period of time.



This sounds a bit like that weak idea Shade had a while back about how to nerf these spells, but not quite as melee biased.

How does this work with Implosion and Destruction? Will it have the same haunting effect? What about spells like Banishment, Dismissal, and death to undeath? Will they be affected also?

While I appreciate the challenges involved with designing challenging content around instakills, I do not agree with some members of the vocal minority that this is some game breaking situation that needs to be solved by changing the fundamentals of these spells.

Why can't enemy casters be set to cast deathward on themselves and their allies more frequently? Why can't certain mob types be coded to have deathward (in effect a deathblock item) rather than a blanket immunity to all mobs. For instance: I would expect epic drow to have deathward and deathblock items, but not epic rats and non-humanoids.

In any case, I'm happy you are listening to the player base and taking another stab at this.

eris2323
06-08-2012, 06:10 PM
Dear turbine; if you go through with this.... plan.

Please consider giving not only a lesser heart of reincarnation to every character on every server, but provide a true heart to every character as well. It's okay if they are bound to character. We don't mind.

I am pretty sure I did not pay 80 dollars to have my character penalized for using core class abilities as a surprise change, this late in the game.

Faent
06-08-2012, 06:11 PM
*tinfoil hat on*

Arcane spellsurge: (Active Cooldown: 4 mins) +5 to all spell DCs for 20 seconds
Spell School augmentation (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive) Chosen school spells have 5% chance to reduce target <save depending on school> by 10 for 10 seconds

I guess Haunting was their plan A from the beginning...

*tinfoil hat off*

Very likely.

Snapdragoon
06-08-2012, 06:12 PM
-20 for 15 seconds, -18 for 15 seconds, -16 for 15 seconds, and so on.

that seems way to much for way too long



There are other possibilities for the future as well. One of the recent ideas in the pit is that when we revamp the enhancements, have a few things that improve with your Haunt level. An ability that grants a bonus to Negative Energy Spell Power based on it, or that consumes souls for some effect? That's got to go into the Pale Master tree.

that seems like a cool idea though, i like the feel of it with Palemaster. instantly murder a mob to make your SLA's more powerfull for a while, when the weaken repeat. makes the insta kill more of a prequal to the effect, rather then the whole effect.

Faent
06-08-2012, 06:17 PM
Divine casters are typically weaker at the instakills than wizards, due to the lack of extra feats, or enhancements to improve their DCs, yet they have one fourth the AOE instakill capacity. Would you consider reducing this timer to 30 seconds to bring it more in line with wail?

If Haunting applies to Implosion as planned, the Implosion timer just went up even more (for well-geared toons that can land it reliably). If the timer was reduced to 10 seconds/kill, the Implosion timer still went up (for the well-geared toons). Frankly, this should not apply to Implosion.

Maybe make it just apply to Wail (and the save DC increase JUST applies to the use of Wail as well.) Circle of Death already has a double save.

DarkForte
06-08-2012, 06:22 PM
Think like this: if you are casting wail, you SHOULD be killing at least 3 mobs, most likely 5 or 6 (else, what would be the point of even doing it? Cast web instead), giving you a debuff of over a MINUTE. In fast-paced content, with high-save mobs, this is akin to putting a 1:15 cooldown on wail. Only it's not limited to wail. It affects wail, finger AND CoD. In this case, why have CoD as an option to wail? You only use it when wail is on cooldown, i.e. all your necromancies are worthless.

Eladrin seems to be missing the point that an arcane with -10 to his DCs is comparable an arcane that has exactly the same gear as the debuffed one, only he started with 8 int and put 3 level ups into dex, and isn't wearing his +7 item. Does that seem right to you?

<SARCASM> On another note, every successful monk stun should give -2 DC to all your tactical feats. Every heal you cast should give a -40 spell power penalty on your healing spells. No, even better! Every spell of an element you cast gives -40 spell power and -2 DC for spells of the same school! That will make melees that much better! </SARCASM>
EDIT: Just to make sure no one misinterprets this.

The solution to this has been presented multiple times before: introduce more high-fort/orange-named mobs in epics. It's much more elegant than introducing a penalty for doing what you are supposed to do.

Scraap
06-08-2012, 06:23 PM
There are other possibilities for the future as well. One of the recent ideas in the pit is that when we revamp the enhancements, have a few things that improve with your Haunt level. An ability that grants a bonus to Negative Energy Spell Power based on it, or that consumes souls for some effect? That's got to go into the Pale Master tree.

Actually, followup for the "so how does that help folks vs deathward if they're a PM vs Sorc":

Haunt level*2 applied as per Augment summoning feat, only to created undead, SLAed, or charmed undead.

+16-20 to all stats over and above augment+the destiny one might make em last long enough to survive a room. (and they don't right now. As absurd as +8 total stacking HP and fort not being enough, they still die horribly.)

Simple enough to throw in before We have to wait half a year?

Faent
06-08-2012, 06:25 PM
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please!!!

Don't nerf heroic levels. Just don't. :mad:

Otherwise, this new proposal is actually WORSE than the last one. :(

Yes it is. It's far worse, as it stands. I just caught up to Eladrin's response. They basically just got rid of Circle of Death and Wail. And then nerfed single-target into oblivion. (You basically get one single-target death spell every 15 seconds. The best casters will be able to add in an extra single target death spell every once in a while, and that's where it stops.) Doing anything else with death spells is going to cripple your ability to cast death spells. Eladrin just curb stomped wizards.

Faent
06-08-2012, 06:28 PM
A stronger caster is going to be able to, as you put it, "play through" the debuff while a weaker caster might as well give up after a finger of death or two, since their DCs are going to be lower to start with.

The "play through the debuff" business was almost totally without merit.

Postumus
06-08-2012, 06:28 PM
this is good stuff...

#2 makes sense - the more life I drain the more it takes out of me

So how does applying that to implosion make sense? Or destruction?

danotmano1998
06-08-2012, 06:31 PM
What part about destroying a prestige classes main focus because they are using that focus sounds like a good idea?

Yes, Haunting is slightly better than Hard to Kill was. But ONLY if it's implemented in the EPIC hard/elite. Implemented across the board is not only a bad idea, it should be punishable by law.

I know EXACTLY what effect this will have on the heroic quests. Wizard? Reroll.

The alternatives are:

1. CC and AOE while you stand around.
2. Kite, which further ticks off everyone in the party because they have to chase you around.
3. Cast, wait for timer, continue on.
4. ??

Keep in mind too, that this effectively KILLS PM solo viability, unless they want to watch a movie between wails, or invis and skip all the mobs.

In a system where just ONE dc makes a big difference, you are proposing to take away 10 in one cast. For killing a handful of rats. In HEROIC levels.. Think about this.

Malshier
06-08-2012, 06:31 PM
Yeah, too bad wizards have no other spells at all besides FoD, Circle of Death, PK, and Wail of Banshee.

Oh wait...

You're right I do. Because nothing screams NUKER like a wizard. That's such an efficient use of my spell points. Thank you for pointing that out, I must have missed it completely.

As I previously stated, with the changes to spell power a sup pot 6 item won't cut it anymore. I'll have to carry clickies and swap gear for the 2 minutes that I can't wail worth a damn.

DeafeningWhisper
06-08-2012, 06:32 PM
So how does applying that to implosion make sense? Or destruction?

You break the hypocritical oath and it weights on your conscience? :)

Carpone
06-08-2012, 06:33 PM
Haunt should apply +Universal Spell Power (that stacks with USP from items) per counter.

Also, there needs to be a hard cap to the number of times Haunt can stack.

And it needs to be implemented way before the mythical class enhancement revamp which has been pushed back yet again due to it's scope.

kzeast
06-08-2012, 06:34 PM
So now I won't be able to solo ANY content on my PM???

Unless I wait 15 seconds between each kill. Or wail and wait a minute??

I think I actually prefer the other system as terrible as it is, because I can still at least enjoy playing my PM on Epic Normal. This ruins the entire game, both epic and heroic for my PM.

Malshier
06-08-2012, 06:36 PM
I actually think I prefer Hard to Kill over this. At least that was only in the two hardest difficulties.

Voldomar
06-08-2012, 06:39 PM
(6) Re-read Eladrin's last post they want to have it at all levels and difficulties for "consistency", you know the same reason you cut of a one legged man's remaining leg "consistency".

And I bet that they will left epic challenges ( and epic ward ) unchanged

Impaqt
06-08-2012, 06:41 PM
-20 for 15 seconds, -18 for 15 seconds, -16 for 15 seconds, and so on.


I disagree - if you fail to kill something, then with a long cooldown you simply cannot try again. With a debuff, you can try again, and then you can choose whether or not you want to cast the spell on another target or wait for the debuff to drop. It's much more lenient than a lengthened cooldown.

There are other possibilities for the future as well. One of the recent ideas in the pit is that when we revamp the enhancements, have a few things that improve with your Haunt level. An ability that grants a bonus to Negative Energy Spell Power based on it, or that consumes souls for some effect? That's got to go into the Pale Master tree.

Wha??

So if I Wail 10 Mobs. ALL of my Spells with DC's are tanked for 2+ Minutes?

I think I'd rather have extended cooldowns...

eris2323
06-08-2012, 06:42 PM
I actually think I prefer Hard to Kill over this. At least that was only in the two hardest difficulties.

I don't like choosing between two different colored piles of....

This needs to be rethought.

Ganolyn
06-08-2012, 06:43 PM
So now I won't be able to solo ANY content on my PM???

Unless I wait 15 seconds between each kill. Or wail and wait a minute??

I think I actually prefer the other system as terrible as it is, because I can still at least enjoy playing my PM on Epic Normal. This ruins the entire game, both epic and heroic for my PM.


I don't see how it changes much at all. You just aggro everything, bring them to the end or a convienient place and kill them all at once there.

danotmano1998
06-08-2012, 06:43 PM
Wha??

So if I Wail 10 Mobs. ALL of my Spells with DC's are tanked for 2+ Minutes?

I think I'd rather have extended cooldowns...

Pretty sure that just applies to necro spells. But no. Your necro DC's if you wailed 10 mobs would be -20. That's not tanked, thats obliterated entirely.

Faent
06-08-2012, 06:44 PM
One of the recent ideas in the pit is that when we revamp the enhancements, have a few things that improve with your Haunt level. An ability that grants a bonus to Negative Energy Spell Power based on it, or that consumes souls for some effect? That's got to go into the Pale Master tree.

I hope you realize that Pale Master's aren't the only people who rely on Wail, Circle and Finger.

Hokiewa
06-08-2012, 06:45 PM
Yes, Haunting is slightly better than Hard to Kill was. But ONLY if it's implemented in the EPIC hard/elite. Implemented across the board is not only a bad idea, it should be punishable by law.

away 10 in one cast. For killing a handful of rats. In HEROIC levels.. Think about this.

This is the part that makes zero sense from a business aspect. Yes the 5% want a harder challenge, but it's the 95% that keeps the lights on. They change a hated concept for epic hard/elite (which for my one wiz would certainly keep me from running them often) to a "new" concept that affects everything, all the while maintaining some premise that the switch was made to accomodate low - mid DCs etc.

It kills PM soloing in high level content on normal/epic normal whatever term is currently in use, which of course was a fundamental change first introduced with dungeon scaling. Some statement along the lines of "we want to try to cater to all playstyles". You know what, that worked. This is a 180 in the other direction. Personally, don't care much for myself, I don't play nearly enough now as I'd like to, but I would like for once, for once, the developers attempt to be consistent. This is not.

Also hilarious (to borrow a bore's phrase), how is a palemaster haunted by draining life? Really, that's just intellectually dishonest. Of course one can use the excuse (and really there is none) that the upcoming...cough...cough...enhancement pass could change things.....:rolleyes:

I understand people are working really hard to put this expansion out and I'm not questioning the dedication involved. Cleary there are passionate folks at Turbine. I do give credit that the developers are listening. It really just seems like too much tinkering and over-thinking.

Malshier
06-08-2012, 06:45 PM
I don't like choosing between two different colored piles of....

This needs to be rethought.

Well to be perfectly frank I think both ideas are the wrong way to "fix" the problem that they think exists.If someone tells me they are going to punch me, and my two choices are in the balls or the face, I'd choose the punch to the face. Both of them are AWFUL, but I'll take the one that sucks the least.

Because that's what these changes are doing: punching necro casters right in the balls.

Scraap
06-08-2012, 06:50 PM
Y'know, there's another question: What happens to a sufficiently high turn undead in some of the new undead heavy quests, like that graveyard one, or going back to older content, the house D one?

emtp
06-08-2012, 06:51 PM
Leave 1-19 alone and aleast epic causul alone. Hard to kill was much better it only messed with the top tier pplayer base that you are worried about while leaving content for casual players. Stop nerfing the low level to fix epic iedeas.

CoasterHops
06-08-2012, 06:51 PM
At least the Wizards who have worked to be decent Palemasters will have the Past lives for decent spell penetration when they all TR to sorcs.

From what I can see Death Casting Wizards = Fail as of update.
Evocation focused Sorcs also speccing in Enchantement, either using Draconic and twisting to Majister or the reverse using Majister and twisting to Draconic are going to be the big winners, cylce Crushing Despair, Mass Hold Monster, AOE Massive damage and WIN. With a **** load more SP and Boss DPS to boot. Seems to me there really isn't much reason to play wizards soon, theres only so many times where throwing a Mind Fog/Dancing Ball or Crushing Despair/Mass Hold can be fun, ohh wait then I can wail as my method of killing once every few minutes once my DCs are back to respectable.

Whatever happened to giving mobs some AI, where are the enemy Casters in Hard and Elite Epic that have the Spell Mass Deathward as one of their cycles, implement them, put the onus on the death dealing caster in the party to ensure that the enemy Mass Deathward caster is taken out asap, or suffer the consequences. Reward good, intuitive play instead of nerfing the Classes that use death effects. If some of this stuff go live there will be only one Arcane casting class to play and that is Sorceror, the funny thing they are already leaps and bounds ahead of Melee in DPS so yeah maybe Sorcerors are just as much of an issue as Palemasters and Evo Focused FVS but hey lets let them rip through content and penalise the others.

EllisDee37
06-08-2012, 06:51 PM
This is terrible for my 18/2 first life wizard, effectively doubling his FoD cooldown from 8 to 15 seconds. He will be much less useful in normal shroud part 1 now. Was that intended?

I vote no on changing single-target death spells. The mass death spells, sure, fine, whatever. For some reason my FoD lands at a far higher % than wail does despite both having the same dc anyway so I generally don't bother with wail much.

(Typically, if I can FoD mobs at around 50% success, a wail will kill 2 out of 10.)

butcheredspirit
06-08-2012, 06:51 PM
So is implosion considered a magical death effect?

It does not effect living incorporeal or gaseous creatures.
It does affect unliving creatures with physical bodies.

The spell simply causes corporeal bodies to physically implode in on themselves.

If implosion is nerfed by haunting, does haunting apply after the full duration of the spell?
I would hate to start getting debuffed after a single tick.
Implosion already seems balanced around it's 1 minute cooldown, and hard cap on the number of creatures killed.

What about dismissal, banishment and silver flame exorcism - do these cause haunting?
Does turning undead cause haunting?

If only some classes get enhancements to reduce the haunting penalty, who is really getting nerfed here?

Violith
06-08-2012, 06:51 PM
When a death spell successfully kills one or more targets, the caster acquires a debuff called "Haunting" for each target killed, for a short period of time.

We're still working out details, but right now, Haunting is a stacking debuff that lasts 15 seconds and applies a -2 penalty to Death Magic save DC's. It decrements by 1 stack whenever the timer runs out.

We may consider a small buff on Hard/Elite/Epic Hard/Epic Elite difficulties to Saves vs. Death Magic for players and monsters at full or very high health, as well as a penalty at very low health, but at much smaller numbers than we were considering previously, when that was considered as a standalone system prior to the implementation of Hard to Kill.

This system essentially would create a "soft cooldown" that is triggered primarily by mass death effects, but still lets a caster Finger of Death a creature or two in fights. It has no effect unless you succeed, so weaker casters aren't harmed by it, and in emergencies even if your Haunted stack is high, Power Word: Kill can still strike down an enemy. (Its effectiveness is not reduced because it doesn't have a saving throw.)

Since your cooldowns wouldn't be longer than they are now, it would be up to you whether you wanted to chain death effects together, debuff opponents with spells like Energy Drain or work with a character with Improved Sunder to overcome the Haunting, or save your Wail for strategic moments when it will have the biggest effect.

We're still working out the details on this, and will then send it on to the engineers. Let us know what you think! Suggestions for improvement are welcome.


since your going to be increasing saving throws of the monsters, how about making it -1dc per stack of haunting. or make it so that the first monster killed isnt counted towards the stacks of haunting (so fod wouldnt be effected), the mobs having a higher save would already be abit of a penalty to us players, not all of us have large dc's)

RobbinB
06-08-2012, 06:53 PM
When a death spell successfully kills one or more targets, the caster acquires a debuff called "Haunting" for each target killed, for a short period of time.

The 15 seconds is too long. Finger of death has an 8 second cooldown meaning we cant even cast finger each time its off cooldown and stay free of hauntings. Single target fingers are not the issue here. 6 sec debuff would work fine its a long delay for those that like to masskill large numbers but doesn't penalize the spot killer.

No, you could still cast finger. It would just mean that you would do so with a dc penalty, which would build up the more times you cast it quickly. After clearing a room, you might find it better to use a different strategy for the next room, or go get a drink, or whatever. But it doesn't stop you from using your death spells.

Carpone
06-08-2012, 06:54 PM
First, it's refreshing to see that when hot issue such as this rears it's head, the dev-team has the resources to focus and respond.

Second, it is a step in the right direction, although as presented it requires a reduction in both the amount of the penalty and the duration of the debuff.

Third, there is an issue that needs to be addressed: the myth that most PM's or necro-focused AM's can sweep through epic content and lay low virtually all of the content, with little challenge. This is simply not true, and really only applies to the top percentile of necro-focused arcanes.

Quite frankly, if a player has invested enough lives into an arcane to have +9 spell pen (3 x wizard and 3 x favoured soul past lives), the maximum possible intelligence (i.e. completionist) and farmed out the best possible gear (+4 intelligence tome, tier 3 alchemicals...) then they had better be dominating content, for two reasons.

First, it is consistent with the lore that comprises the foundation of the game - that at the highest levels, spell casters are indeed the most powerful.

Second, if there is no tangible benefit to investing countless hours TR'ing and raiding and farming gear, then where is the underlying motivation to continue?
This needs to be framed in the dev design room.

WurmBurned
06-08-2012, 06:54 PM
I like the general idea and it wouldn’t punish high DC casters nearly to the extent that the combat overhaul punishes high AC. Higher DCs still mean that you can cope with the debuff better.

However, I feel that either the duration or size of the penalty should be reduced. What’s currently proposed would be especially problematic for Implosion and still too harsh for other spells as well. A hard cap on the debuff also seems warranted.

If this must impact heroic levels, I would like to see it relegated to epic elite and heroic elite.

Scraap
06-08-2012, 06:54 PM
Whatever happened to giving mobs some AI, where are the enemy Casters in Hard and Elite Epic that have the Spell Mass Deathward as one of their cycles, implement them, put the onus on the death dealing caster in the party to ensure that the enemy Mass Deathward caster is taken out asap, or suffer the consequences.

Funny thing is, they not only do that now on normal in the new stuff, but if there's necromancers, they even raise dead mobs as undeads (including themselves). Apparently, that's not enough.

Grace_ana
06-08-2012, 06:59 PM
Eladrin, why is it seemingly not an option to fix the epic hard and elite quests so that the AI is more challenging? These solutions are of the sort that will end up causing more problems than they fix, and then six months from now you guys have to ditch it in favor of something like...improved AI.

mrtweakin
06-08-2012, 07:01 PM
The change sounds reasonable compared with Hard to Kill. Please keep it in epics though, even epic normal. This simply has no business in Heroic levels.