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Schmoe
06-08-2012, 08:34 AM
I know that the developers have stated that Epic Destinies were intentionally designed with multiple classes in mind. That's good! I think flexibility in build choices is key. However, from what I've seen, only one epic destiny will explicitly benefit a particular class. Many classes might get some benefit from an ED, but any given ED generally seems designed with one class in mind. For example, the Unyielding Sentinel clearly and explicitly benefits paladins, but no other ED does. The Fury of the Wild clearly and explicitly benefits barbarians, but no other ED does. The Fatesinger clearly and explicitly benefits bards, but no other ED does. You get the picture.

What if, instead, each Epic Destiny was focused more on roles and explicitly helped multiple classes fulfill that role? For example, the Fury of the Wild might address how a Paladin fits the role with the following abilities:

(New) Adrenaline (required 0): (Active Cooldown: 5secs) You gain +1 damage per level of fury of the wild. Gain 2 adrenaline uses per rest. Consume 1 adrenaline your next attack deals +300% damage and increase your critical threat range by 2. If you have a smite evil ability, this attack gains all benefits of the smite. You are considered raged until your next attack.

Tier 2
(New) Furious Smite (required 4 - No prereq) (1 rank - 2 AP): Whenever you make a smite attack, you are also considered raged for that attack and until you make another attack.


The above abilities are for example only, but the point is that the EDs become somewhat more generic regarding the classes that they support. I think this would really broaden the field of class options and make epic character building a lot more exciting.

Vargouille
06-08-2012, 09:50 AM
It's an interesting idea, but if anything we'd like less explicit support. There's tons of combinations already there for players to find, and it's more interesting that way rather than us saying, "If you are this class and this destiny, then this is the ability for you!" Players will surely find combinations we can't imagine.

Fury of the Wild and Adrenaline are already good for DPS Paladins, for instance. Because Adrenaline combines with Smite Evil to produce quite large hits.

sephiroth1084
06-08-2012, 10:53 AM
It's an interesting idea, but if anything we'd like less explicit support. There's tons of combinations already there for players to find, and it's more interesting that way rather than us saying, "If you are this class and this destiny, then this is the ability for you!" Players will surely find combinations we can't imagine.

Fury of the Wild and Adrenaline are already good for DPS Paladins, for instance. Because Adrenaline combines with Smite Evil to produce quite large hits.
And that's after acknowledging that Smite Evil is not much of a DPS boost, due to the limited number of them, right?

Vargouille
06-08-2012, 11:11 AM
And that's after acknowledging that Smite Evil is not much of a DPS boost, due to the limited number of them, right?

When you can combine Adrenaline and Smite Evil to hit for thousands in a single hit, it's surely some kind of DPS boost. Some players were claiming they could hit for 10,000 with a single attack, though I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere.

Regardless, Adrenaline uses likely limits you more than your regenerating Smite Evil.

sephiroth1084
06-08-2012, 11:37 AM
When you can combine Adrenaline and Smite Evil to hit for thousands in a single hit, it's surely some kind of DPS boost. Some players were claiming they could hit for 10,000 with a single attack, though I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere. That's fair. I'd still like to see Smite Evil made more worthwhile the rest of the time, when it is doing +67 damage per activation. When you start a fight, that's pretty nice, but you quickly run through your smites and then end up with +67 damage 1/90 seconds (or 60 seconds if you invest in Epic Destiny ranks), which is rather poor, even with Exalted Smite increasing your chance to crit and crit damage. As an iconic paladin ability, it should probably do more.

I had proposed elsewhere several months ago that I'd like to see some abilities that change Smite Evil to chain (like Chain Lightning), or having combat effects tied to it (Trip, Stun, Sunder), or effects like Banishing and Disruption. I think these should come in the heroic levels, but a few of those, or something similar, could stand to make its way into Unyielding Sentinel (will repost this in the targeted feedback thread).



Regardless, Adrenaline uses likely limits you more than your regenerating Smite Evil.
I don't know about that...smite, at best, looks to be regenerating at 1/minute, while Adrenaline would probably be coming back in at least half that time.

Schmoe
06-08-2012, 11:38 AM
It's an interesting idea, but if anything we'd like less explicit support. There's tons of combinations already there for players to find, and it's more interesting that way rather than us saying, "If you are this class and this destiny, then this is the ability for you!" Players will surely find combinations we can't imagine.

To be sure it's more interesting to let players find combinations. But I think less explicit support is the wrong direction to go. You have two choices: either acknowledge the way that class mechanics interact with EDs, or avoid class mechanics entirely in EDs. The class mechanics are, by nature, tied to the classes, so the extent to which you tie ED mechanics to class mechanics will also tie EDs to classes.

If you avoid class mechanics in EDs, then you're stuck creating entirely new sub-systems that may or may not mesh well with existing features. It requires adding features that feel like add-ons and lead to characters that are a hodge podge of so many disparate game sub-systems that is confusing and lacks internal consistency. You gain the benefit of divorcing EDs from classes, but you pay a price in internal consistency. EDs already explicitly support class mechanics. Removing them entirely from the EDs, while making the EDs more general, would also remove a lot of the flavor and pizazz from them. This is your suggestion.

If you tie class mechanics to EDs, then you also tie EDs to classes. This is the current situation. You gain the benefit of allowing progression in existing game sub-systems, allowing players to continue to advance with existing character designs. The tradeoff is the trend that classes are limited to EDs that already provide explicit support for their mechanics. At the moment, EDs tend to only support class mechanics for one or two classes. However, this can be mitigated by expanding EDs to explicitly support a broader range of class mechanics, effectively nullifying the drawback of this approach.

Why shouldn't Legendary Dreadnaught interact with Favored Enemies in some way? Maybe grant a tactical feat bonus against favored enemies. Why shouldn't Fatesinger interact with Sneak Attack in some way? Maybe allow Fatesingers to Sneak Attack enemies they fascinate without breaking the fascination.

DDO already seems to have an overabundance of disparate, inconsistent mechanics that don't always form a cohesive experience. By making EDs more explicitly support individual class mechanics, I think that you can reach your goal of generalizing EDs across classes without losing the flavor of the ED and without creating too many inconsistent subsystems.

Schmoe
06-08-2012, 11:39 AM
I had proposed elsewhere several months ago that I'd like to see some abilities that change Smite Evil to chain (like Chain Lightning), or having combat effects tied to it (Trip, Stun, Sunder), or effects like Banishing and Disruption. I think these should come in the heroic levels, but a few of those, or something similar, could stand to make its way into Unyielding Sentinel (will repost this in the targeted feedback thread).


Actually, I think the Trip/Stun/Sunder seem like perfect smite riders for the Legendary Dreadnaught ED to provide!

Lithic
06-08-2012, 11:41 AM
It's an interesting idea, but if anything we'd like less explicit support. There's tons of combinations already there for players to find, and it's more interesting that way rather than us saying, "If you are this class and this destiny, then this is the ability for you!" Players will surely find combinations we can't imagine.

Fury of the Wild and Adrenaline are already good for DPS Paladins, for instance. Because Adrenaline combines with Smite Evil to produce quite large hits.

Any class with spells or class-level based abilities is severely limited due to only a specific destiny counting as divine or arcane or ranger levels.

Havok.cry
06-08-2012, 11:59 AM
Any class with spells or class-level based abilities is severely limited due to only a specific destiny counting as divine or arcane or ranger levels.

Well in the case of caster level, those bonuses are often useless for anyone. The exception being buffs. Damage spells are caped, CC spells provide regular intervals of saves, and often times mobs make said save before the spell runs its course. Those extra caster levels are adding only two things: spell penetration and buff duration.

That being said, these epic destinies should provide universal caster level increases, in my opinion, just because they are not set for just one class.

B0ltdrag0n
06-08-2012, 01:29 PM
I wish smites regenerated on Vorpal.

Dagolar
06-08-2012, 02:00 PM
I had proposed elsewhere several months ago that I'd like to see some abilities that change Smite Evil to chain (like Chain Lightning), or having combat effects tied to it (Trip, Stun, Sunder), or effects like Banishing and Disruption. I think these should come in the heroic levels, but a few of those, or something similar, could stand to make its way into Unyielding Sentinel (will repost this in the targeted feedback thread).


I'd love to see more creative reinterpretations of abilities. Imagine if Legendary Dreadnought had a tier 5/6 ability that added "Your tactical feats now have a small, random chance of applying on a successful hit with any non-tactical special ability. Your normally activated tactical feats have a shorter cooldown and +2 to their DCs."

Smite, Touch of Death, caster SLAs, etc, would all become REALLY intriguing hybridizations with the Destiny, LD's lack of DPS/Defensive potency in comparison to FotW and Unyielding wouldn't be near as important a factor, etc.

At the same time, the inclusion of a non-special ability element would still make it worthwhile for those builds/classes [such as Kensai] that didn't have access to such abilities (though, the new enhancement system/Destiny twisting could also make up for that).

Dagolar
06-08-2012, 02:03 PM
Any class with spells or class-level based abilities is severely limited due to only a specific destiny counting as divine or arcane or ranger levels.

This is true, especially for Bards, whom could otherwise benefit greatly from divine destinies.



That being said, these epic destinies should provide universal caster level increases, in my opinion, just because they are not set for just one class.

What's really curious is that arcane/divine caster levels don't work for other arcane/divine caster classes outside of epic.. so it's arbitrary in that.
Of course, if they changed that for heroic classes, that's another thing :)

zealous
06-08-2012, 03:12 PM
When you can combine Adrenaline and Smite Evil to hit for thousands in a single hit, it's surely some kind of DPS boost. Some players were claiming they could hit for 10,000 with a single attack, though I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere.
If you were referring to me it was 11.3k with the very explicit assumption of off hand procs working with overload, so ~5k without.
[edit:] And it wasn't a claim, it was mathematical proof ;)

LiquidShadow
06-08-2012, 03:12 PM
Fury of the Wild and Adrenaline are already good for DPS Paladins, for instance. Because Adrenaline combines with Smite Evil to produce quite large hits.

this is true but this combination is also very limited especialy on bosses with high fortification.
i already pointed that out in closed beta exalted angel thread just to show Eladrin how his destiny sucks... guess he didnt care much, as always.

now the damage. i can do crit smite for about 800dmg on fully buffed and well geared kotc pally with esos and emc. make that x4 and u get 3200 dmg provided that u wont be stopped by fortification on boss. i dont know where that 10k dmg come from... maybe barbarian on helpless mob with 19-20 roll but thats still a bit too high imo.

fury of the wild - mindless killing machine is way better addition to knight of the chalice paladin than exalted angel...
ever tried to multiclass paladin with barbarian? think about it and u will get what i mean

what does exalted angel offer? some healing line ok. some healing spell thats actualy nice. some sp increase is nice too but the caster lvl increase doesnt change anything except timers on some buffs. lawful good DR beater? no thx i already bypass good DR as paladin. stupid fervor ardor system with timer... and abilities limited to few enemies and a weaksauce smite with long cooldown and high sp cost...nothing to enhance aura of good... no extra smites in autogrants...

now take a look at fury of the wild. cold iron+evil outsider bane on a single ability. stacking spell resistance. extra dmg and hp through autogrants. huge boost to dmg through adrenaline combined with smites...and the most important thing - u dont need to stop attacking to fully use other abilities unlike those in fervor,ardor system:
swing, swing, cast spell, look at timer, cast spell, swing again, no mobs to cast spell on, timer is out, GAME OVER...

zealous
06-08-2012, 03:34 PM
now the damage. i can do crit smite for about 800dmg on fully buffed and well geared kotc pally with esos and emc. make that x4 and u get 3200 dmg provided that u wont be stopped by fortification on boss. i dont know where that 10k dmg come from... maybe barbarian on helpless mob with 19-20 roll but thats still a bit too high imo.

Dual hpick, erroneous assumptions about off hand procs also benefiting, erroneous assumption of damage boost applying multiplicative and not additively.

see http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4509678&postcount=11

LiquidShadow
06-08-2012, 04:19 PM
What if, instead, each Epic Destiny was focused more on roles and explicitly helped multiple classes fulfill that role? For example, the Fury of the Wild might address how a Paladin fits the role with the following abilities:

(New) Adrenaline (required 0): (Active Cooldown: 5secs) You gain +1 damage per level of fury of the wild. Gain 2 adrenaline uses per rest. Consume 1 adrenaline your next attack deals +300% damage and increase your critical threat range by 2. If you have a smite evil ability, this attack gains all benefits of the smite. You are considered raged until your next attack.

Tier 2
(New) Furious Smite (required 4 - No prereq) (1 rank - 2 AP): Whenever you make a smite attack, you are also considered raged for that attack and until you make another attack.


thats actualy what i was hoping for except that i was looking for boost in exalted angel destiny for my knight of the chalice

i was thinking that offensive paladin would benefit the most from exalted angel while defender build from unyielding sentinel... guess im wrong about that offensive build and will end up in legendary dreadnought or fury of the wild in the end as they offer better smiting abilities that are not called smites...

lets take a look at other class/destinies mixes:

as a monk i would like to choose from shadowdancer (dex) and grandmaster of flowers (wis/dex) maybe from legendary dreanought (str) too... right now shadowdancer doesnt offer much boost to monk abilities

cleric could choose from exalted angel and unyielding sentinel - right now i think sentinel works better for them...

favored soul... legendary dreadnought and the same choices as cleric but different reasons - smites instead of turn undead boosts

arcanes... well they seem to be ok imo except for artificer maybe that has nowhere to go (shadowdancer and shiradi champion?)

str rogue might consider legendary dreadnought while dex/int would probably want shadowdancer

fighter - legendary dreadnought, fury of the wild, unyielding sentinel, depending on main fighting style

ranger - shiradi champion or legendary dreadnought - also depending on fighting style

barbarian - fury of the wild or legendary dreadnought AGAIN...

druid - now thats new to me but hmm maybe grandmaster of flowers/unyielding sentinel if melee/shapeshifter or shiradi champion if caster build


so what was this all about? i dont expect fighter to be a good candidate for arcane sphere destiny since im aware that its all or nothing system but u should seriously consider making it less bonded to specific class and support the role of characters instead
some destinies should work better for specific character types like tank, twf melee, thf melee, smiter, healer, nuker, stealth melee, ranged, high dc caster...and many more types no matter what class u are

u actualy made few destinies well so far: legendary dreadnought as tactical feat master and fury of the wild as a thf master, magister as high dc caster and draconic incarnation as nuker are some good examples that doesnt require class that u were basing on when creating those destinies

things that sucks imo include unyielding sentinel because its tied too much to paladin and exalted angel penalizes paladins (lacks melee bonuses) even though its thematically appropriate for them, u could also make part of shadowdancer less roguish and add some twf boosts to it

LiquidShadow
06-08-2012, 04:38 PM
If you were referring to me it was 11.3k with the very explicit assumption of off hand procs working with overload, so ~5k without.
[edit:] And it wasn't a claim, it was mathematical proof ;)

this reminds me of a friend who said that his main dps source on cleric/mnk/arti in heroic lvls is divine punishment then he calculated all the stuff and typed it in chat and i said which of the monster in quests between lvl 10-19 lives longer than 30 seconds when u play in 6 man group or even solo? so yea its all fun in theory like those doom threads about max possible heal amp... nobody mentions low dps and other disadvantages

in reality u activate ur epic moment and for example lord of blades go flying (or make that velah's fire breath) when he is back on earth ur epic moment is gone or almost gone and u wait for cooldown :)

zealous
06-08-2012, 07:37 PM
this reminds me of a friend who said that his main dps source on cleric/mnk/arti in heroic lvls is divine punishment then he calculated all the stuff and typed it in chat and i said which of the monster in quests between lvl 10-19 lives longer than 30 seconds when u play in 6 man group or even solo? so yea its all fun in theory like those doom threads about max possible heal amp... nobody mentions low dps and other disadvantages

Well the thing with caster dots is that they have a ramp up time since you need to tripple stack before they really start putting the hurt.

Overload smiting is problematic in that it's very front loaded. So in this case a geared melee would be kind of like the cleric, they would need a extended fight to catch up to the front loaded burst.

If the fight is shorter than 30s the dps of the overload smiter naturally goes up.



in reality u activate ur epic moment and for example lord of blades go flying (or make that velah's fire breath) when he is back on earth ur epic moment is gone or almost gone and u wait for cooldown :)
Worst case, yes, you will loose precious heroic moment time. How likely is that though?
The activated won't be as sensitive.
For velah you can have your friendly magister pop down a nullmagic aura, and you generally have some 30ish seconds of beat down anyway, don't you?

LoB don't constantly go flying so you could use the EM at the beginning or towards the end, using the activated uses in between. Overload smiting might be substantially worse than the theoretical max due to fortification and AC anyway. Don't necessarily need to use it for the LoB too?

There might be some other encounters in the game, where you might be able to get some milage.