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darkrune
06-08-2012, 05:45 AM
Have you seen/heard how much we despise your idea? If so are you listening? If not wake up and see you cash supply enraged, and do something about it!

Buggss
06-08-2012, 05:49 AM
Have you seen/heard how much we despise your idea? If so are you listening? If not wake up and see you cash supply enraged, and do something about it!

There've been a lot of complaints over the last few weeks, maybe you could be more specific so we can agree or disagree with you some?

Stillwaters
06-08-2012, 05:50 AM
Have you seen/heard how much we despise your idea? If so are you listening? If not wake up and see you cash supply enraged, and do something about it!

Pfft the melee changes threads (started by devs) reached over 1600 posts on closed beta, let alone the dozens and dozens of self starter threads....
and they didnt change a damn thing.

And many of the negative comments were way more thought out and constructive than this....

Forzah
06-08-2012, 05:53 AM
The forums give somewhat of a skewed picture, since most forum posters have a pale master and don't want their shiny toy taken away. In the end everyone will adapt to the change, just as with any change so far.

Jitty
06-08-2012, 06:13 AM
most forum posters have a pale master

I'd be interested to know how you got this information

Stillwaters
06-08-2012, 06:19 AM
I'd be interested to know how you got this information

Forzah has a valid point, this is an autokill caster nerf (extending to assassins) and 90% of forumgoers would agree that
well played/built casters > well played/built melee for farming..
xp farming, scroll farming, even just rare item farming....

Therefore a MOST of them would have had an autokill caster in their stable, Palemasters being the easiest to build from life 1.
Some had even spent a long time tring and refining it to make it pay off even better.

Gkar
06-08-2012, 06:23 AM
Have you seen/heard how much we despise your idea? If so are you listening? If not wake up and see you cash supply enraged, and do something about it!

Random post is random and useless. What are you talking about? There are just a few issues under discussion.

Buggss
06-08-2012, 06:24 AM
I'd be interested to know how you got this information

Personal experience and knowing a lot of people.

I'm in a guild with 30+ active accounts, most of them have one. I'm in 4 channels with 30-50 regular users the majority of whom have some form of pm.

I'd say the OP has a fair and considered point.

Buggss
06-08-2012, 06:25 AM
Random post is random and useless. What are you talking about? There are just a few issues under discussion.

Asked the same on post #2, no response yet.

Tid12
06-08-2012, 06:28 AM
Asked the same on post #2, no response yet.

He is probably talking about the Hard to kill ward. I could bet on it.

AZgreentea
06-08-2012, 06:30 AM
I would say that when a party full of Melee cannot complete a quest that a Caster can solo, there is a balancing issue. The TWF "nerf" worked out just fine, this will too.

Nerf, what an abused word. Its as overused as the words Nazi and Socialist in a political debate.

t0r012
06-08-2012, 06:31 AM
Yes another 600 post thread of nerdrage because their OP flavor of the month builds got hit with the nerf bat.
Let me see last time it was the fist of death wis dumped dark monks
Before that the exploiters
Before that the WOP
Before that Batman full plate evasion builds

I'm sure I'm missing a few in there but you should get the picture. The easy button bandwagon will always crash in to the nerf ditch and nerds will rage.

Ebonta
06-08-2012, 06:49 AM
Yes another 600 post thread of nerdrage because their OP flavor of the month builds got hit with the nerf bat.
Let me see last time it was the fist of death wis dumped dark monks
Before that the exploiters
Before that the WOP
Before that Batman full plate evasion builds

I'm sure I'm missing a few in there but you should get the picture. The easy button bandwagon will always crash in to the nerf ditch and nerds will rage.

Yay, the people that ground out TR's and hard to get Tomes and other items all have their time wasted. Of course we're nerdraging.

darkrune
06-08-2012, 06:50 AM
In response to above:

Yes this is about hard to kill. 600 posts in a day versus 1600 over a week or so.

I see this much different than WoP, FP evasion, and other nerfs that occurred. This is a pre (as well as other classes assassin rogues, divines) that is basically lost half of its use to go back to an idea that Turbine already tried and failed at. Epic Ward didn't workso why put in this new epic ward?

I have played every class to cap except for Pali ( capped one when level cap was ten) and Arti(current have a tr one at 17). Out of all classes I love my casters the most. Not because they are the uberest toons but because I love the concept of a Black Robe Raistlin Majere type caster from my days as a child reading Dragonlance books.

This change has effectively made a "Master of the Tower" archmage and turned him into a Red robed wizard with a cough and hell of a fireball.

That being said willi adapt sure, with all the other changes that I tried in closed beta it is like learning a whole new game. My friends and I will give it a shot and if we like it great if not we won't and will leave. Clearly the game loses nothing because every day I see less and less posters with 06 join dates posting and a lot more 10+ join dates that know it all.

jejeba86
06-08-2012, 06:56 AM
Have you seen/heard how much we despise your idea? If so are you listening? If not wake up and see you cash supply enraged, and do something about it!

Don't say that! I really like the rust monster pet running after my warforged barbarian!!!

kzeast
06-08-2012, 07:04 AM
Yes another 600 post thread of nerdrage because their OP flavor of the month builds got hit with the nerf bat.
Let me see last time it was the fist of death wis dumped dark monks
Before that the exploiters
Before that the WOP
Before that Batman full plate evasion builds

I'm sure I'm missing a few in there but you should get the picture. The easy button bandwagon will always crash in to the nerf ditch and nerds will rage.

Sorry, so PM's are flavour of the month? I don't think building a pure wiz, using one of only two PrE's is hardly the same as a batman build.

kailiea
06-08-2012, 07:16 AM
Yes another 600 post thread of nerdrage because their OP flavor of the month builds got hit with the nerf bat.
Let me see last time it was the fist of death wis dumped dark monks
Before that the exploiters
Before that the WOP
Before that Batman full plate evasion builds

I'm sure I'm missing a few in there but you should get the picture. The easy button bandwagon will always crash in to the nerf ditch and nerds will rage.

What about the assassin bandwagon? ...I wasn't aware there was one, but my class is apparently cannon fodder in this change and individuals like yourself seem to be ensuring it demise as a useful PRE/Destiny.

I can see why they added dumb stuff like Ddoor and shadow walk to the shadow dancer destiny because they were planning on getting rid of the insta kill stuff. At this point why even have them in the game?

They nerf assassins and monks and not the barbarians swinging 4500+ point crits with the new destiny enhancements. I mean with numbers like that it is dead in 2 or 3 swings anyways

orakio
06-08-2012, 07:31 AM
Sorry, so PM's are flavour of the month? I don't think building a pure wiz, using one of only two PrE's is hardly the same as a batman build.

Palemaster damage and self healing through negative energy went up drastically due to the spellpower changes. Even more so than on live, palemasters were trivializing almost all new content due to this + the instant kill change. Even without the uniqueness of a heavily multiclassed build they were an extremely heavily played class on live, whether you want to call that fotm or not is up to you.

I keep hearing people claim it is a blanket immunity to instant death effects but that simply isn't the case. Your Finger/Wail's act similar to vorpal/smiting/etc. weapons now, that is all. Yes it is a huge change, yes the hp threshold could be looked at for hard such that its <75% on hard and <50% on elite. The reality is though with the further increased ability to focus and stack specific aspects of a character even non-multi tr'd top geared palemasters were seeing an incredible amount of effectiveness (before they broke undead) on the closed beta client.

Not advocating the change, but perhaps people need to realize there is a very real reason why developers thought that SOMETHING needed to be done, and rather than whine and complain should try to provide constructive alternatives to the hard to kill buff.

In my opinion the answer isn't blanket save increases, as that heavily effects non insta kill abilities as well. Similarly the idea of giving caster mobs in quests the mass deathward spell runs into the fact that it is an even larger counter to instant kill spells if you don't prevent them from casting it, and that players can't reliably dispel the deathward effect due to elevated mob caster levels. The best thing I have seen is proposals of a increased save versus death on mobs in higher difficulties, but not universal save increase. Something that functions like the new poison/disease resist and the breakdown of death effects from natural(assassinate) to magical/supernatural. The question is how much coding is required to make that idea a reality, and can it be implemented without breaking ot her aspects of the game?

JOTMON
06-08-2012, 08:01 AM
I would say that when a party full of Melee cannot complete a quest that a Caster can solo, there is a balancing issue. The TWF "nerf" worked out just fine, this will too.

Nerf, what an abused word. Its as overused as the words Nazi and Socialist in a political debate.

Now the party still cant complete the quest and Necro casters cant get into parties...still not balanced...
Rogue assassin ... yeah we dont need those insta-kills dont work, just grab any Arti or Druid splash rogue for the traps at least they have buffs.

Alavatar
06-08-2012, 09:17 AM
... most forum posters have a ...


... and 90% of forumgoers would agree ...

... MOST of them would ...

86% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Forzah
06-08-2012, 09:24 AM
86% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

If there is no data, you have to make an estimate. My 'most of the forum posters' is pretty broad estimate. It is very likely that more than half the people have a pale master, considering it is one of the best classes, and people often have multiple toons. Of course, it's hard for me to proof this claim without asking everybody what toon they have. Yet, it is not an unreasonable claim for the reason stated above.

Kindrson
06-08-2012, 09:28 AM
with all the nerfs and whatnot that is coming on the horizon can no one else see that by update 16 when you log in the only choice for new character creation will be a dwarf fighter... and by that what i mean is under race selection you will only be able to pick dwarf... they will have deleted all other races... and only be able to pick fighters because they will have deleted all other classes...
for a game that used to be about individuality and having fun YOUR way it is certainly looking that we are getting pushed into a WOW model of an mmo.... but thats just my 2cents

KingOfCheese
06-08-2012, 09:29 AM
86% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Now you made it 87% (rats, now it's 88%).

azmodeus1
06-08-2012, 09:29 AM
Have you seen/heard how much we despise your idea? If so are you listening? If not wake up and see you cash supply enraged, and do something about it!


speak for yourself, im not overy upset with any of the changes and am looking forward to teh expansion. whatever they decide to go live with, ill adapt as needed. not everyone is against the hard to kill effect.

KingOfCheese
06-08-2012, 09:37 AM
One can debate the particular degree to which the current nerfs compare to prior ones.

But the big picture remains the same: prior nerfs caused lots of players to retire or semi-retire beloved characters that had tons of grinding behind them. And so may the current nerfs.

In my personal experience, I made a fully geared up exploiter tempest build. Every raid run 20x times. Had essentially all the gear. The nerf bat arrived. The build was still solid. But not the bestestestest. So I found myself playing my rogue or kensai fighter when "dps" was needed. And the ranger became all but retired.

And my love for the game remained.

At various times, I've semi-retired every melee character and also various of my casters and other classes. As the game changes, they come back out of retirement and are almost immediately ready to roll.

I initially don't like the nerfs--but then come to enjoy the challenge it brings. Over years of playing, I have a stable of 15+ well built/geared characters of various classes/specialties. When the game changes, my focus changes. I may TR or LR. Or I may switch to other characters. But its all fun.

riexau
06-08-2012, 09:41 AM
Anyone remember when vorpals use to behead on a crit, no save? Or PK was a straight fort save, no will save attached? Or when firewall lasted 5 minutes and you could stack it? Or when you could buy DD and firewall scrolls from vendors? No dungeon alert?

Things change, it says so everytime you login (Online experience may change). Learn to adapt, or maybe find a game that doesn't change (I hear the rules for tic-tac-toe don't change much)

Snapdragoon
06-08-2012, 09:42 AM
so what about the billion people that have a:

-Horc Barb
-WF Sorc
-WF Arti
-Human Cleric

then i deem all of these builds flavors of the month, and therefore require there standard nurf of base class goal. if PM cant necro then:

-Horc Barbs cant use 2 handed weapons
-WF Sorcs cant use damage spells
-WF Arti cant use repeaters
-Human Clerics cant heal

there, that should ballance out all those OP flavors of the month :/

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 09:43 AM
we are looking at what now? 6 difficulties for each quest now? 4 of those difficulties, instan death works the way it always has. i do not see why the rage. they created 2 difficulties that they intend for us to run in groups. this is not that terrible. y is everyon so insistent that we should be able to solo everything? this is a great game change. especially if the rewards for those difficulties are meaningful.

Rizzyn
06-08-2012, 09:49 AM
we are looking at what now? 6 difficulties for each quest now? 4 of those difficulties, instan death works the way it always has. i do not see why the rage. they created 2 difficulties that they intend for us to run in groups. this is not that terrible. y is everyon so insistent that we should be able to solo everything? this is a great game change. especially if the rewards for those difficulties are meaningful.

Well said.

And, as has been said elsewhere, even though it does not yet exist, Hard to Kill is being reviewed. So, all this angst is not only misplaced and not constructive, it is being heard. Devs have said its being reviewed for the possibility of change, and it is not even on LIVE yet, and if it does got o LIVE, nothing will change in the current quests that those who feel spiked by this are already running. It will add difficulties, and if it does go broadcast LIVE, and you count run the hardest Epic Level alone, the new SIXTH and hardest choice, I don't see that as necessarily a "Nerf".

Alavatar
06-08-2012, 09:52 AM
If there is no data, you have to make an estimate. My 'most of the forum posters' is pretty broad estimate. It is very likely that more than half the people have a pale master, considering it is one of the best classes, and people often have multiple toons. Of course, it's hard for me to proof this claim without asking everybody what toon they have. Yet, it is not an unreasonable claim for the reason stated above.

You are clearly not a science person. If there is no data, then there is no validity behind the statistical claim. And you don't need to ask everybody. A statistically significant sample population would be sufficient such as, say, 1000 people.

I recommend sticking to either philosophical debates or only use evidence from which you can personally attest.

donblas
06-08-2012, 09:53 AM
so what about the billion people that have a:

-Horc Barb
-WF Sorc
-WF Arti
-Human Cleric

then i deem all of these builds flavors of the month, and therefore require there standard nurf of base class goal.

Yes, nerf them until they are as "useless" as PMs :D

SSFWEl
06-08-2012, 09:57 AM
they created 2 difficulties that they intend for us to run in groups. this is not that terrible. y is everyon so insistent that we should be able to solo everything? this is a great game change. especially if the rewards for those difficulties are meaningful.

Replying as an Assassin (not PM):

1. Rogues don't solo much.
2. I want to be able to run the HIGHEST level content with all of my hard-worked-for capabilities intact. Period.

Why should I not be able to Assassinate at all at the highest levels? That is the same as saying: Sorry, aRogues are not welcome. Go run the low level ones.

eris2323
06-08-2012, 09:58 AM
Yes another 600 post thread of nerdrage because their OP flavor of the month builds got hit with the nerf bat.
Let me see last time it was the fist of death wis dumped dark monks
Before that the exploiters
Before that the WOP
Before that Batman full plate evasion builds

I'm sure I'm missing a few in there but you should get the picture. The easy button bandwagon will always crash in to the nerf ditch and nerds will rage.

None of these is equivalent. What they are removing are CORE FEATURES of a class.

All of these nerfs were people trying to abuse the system and get away with it.

Remove the core feature of a a class though? How about you just remove the class. And I'll take my free True Heart NOW, please.

Rizzyn
06-08-2012, 10:04 AM
Replying as an Assassin (not PM):

1. Rogues don't solo much.
2. I want to be able to run the HIGHEST level content with all of my hard-worked-for capabilities intact. Period.

Why should I not be able to Assassinate at all at the highest levels? That is the same as saying: Sorry, aRogues are not welcome. Go run the low level ones.

I, too, am an Assassin. I also do not solo. I have a partner that has enough intimi and armor to generally pull the aggro and keep me pumping out damage via sneak attacks and specials.

I have run the highest level content. I'm okay. I even disabled a bunch of traps. Currently, on Live, I've run several Epics there as well, it's fairly hard to assassinate things as they either have over 1000HP, OR, their Fort Saves are significantly high. My Assassinate DC is a 40, and can get a bit higher with gear swaps. I have run on Closed and Open Beta, I remain very effective. Scaling does have something to do with this as well.

You cannot assassinate at the highest levels, because you currently can't assassinate at the highest levels. In Epic House P Carnival, while I might get an assassinate in by luck, I was far more effective and helpful to the party while flanking -- Sneak Attack Bonuses to hit, damage, and when they were below 1000HP --Vorpal Strikes and Manslayer. Assassin's will be okay.

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 10:06 AM
Replying as an Assassin (not PM):

1. Rogues don't solo much.
2. I want to be able to run the HIGHEST level content with all of my hard-worked-for capabilities intact. Period.

Why should I not be able to Assassinate at all at the highest levels? That is the same as saying: Sorry, aRogues are not welcome. Go run the low level ones.

i must admit i have not given a rogue a spin on my account yet. i have yet to try anything that doesnt have a blue bar. please explain to me how the assassinate mechanics work and how you are no logner able to use this ability AT ALL?

like, once the mobs are reduced to 50% can you not asssassintate them? is there a piece of this mechanic i dont get?

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 10:09 AM
everything i read, i just keep reading the same thing. i dont see the rage as being "i cant insta death" i see the rage as "i cant solo the hardest content". We are so spoiled.

Silken-Akira
06-08-2012, 10:22 AM
I am a (very) casual player and yep I know it wasn't the smartest choice as first toon but decided to go pure rogue.
Reading the comments here it reflects that rogue is the only class that is although fun to play is useless for most of the raids/hard epics groups. I have to admit that I am a bit dissapoited by this because it looks that all the other classes still have their use on the high levels.

Or am I interpretending the whole explenation wrong?

inggold
06-08-2012, 10:27 AM
everything i read, i just keep reading the same thing. i dont see the rage as being "i cant insta death" i see the rage as "i cant solo the hardest content". We are so spoiled.

I didn't and don't solo hardest content, my PM never got uber geared/enough TR's to try it.

I am, however, completely set up and focused towards negative energgy and instakills for grouping. I didn't have the power to take it all out in one shot like 4th life super geared can, but still killed via neg levelling and instakilling vs. trying to be a weak sorc and nuking when I'm not set up for it.

I understand what they are trying to fix and empathize. The mechanic being bandied about for implementation fundamentally breaks an entire path as it looks now, hopefully that is wrong.. bit I somehow don't think so.

eris2323
06-08-2012, 10:28 AM
everything i read, i just keep reading the same thing. i dont see the rage as being "i cant insta death" i see the rage as "i cant solo the hardest content". We are so spoiled.

You must be missing a lot of posts then.

MY main concern is that creating a pale master, equipping them, tr'ing them, making them better.... is all fine and good.

Then we hit epic hard and elite. And ALL of that goes to waste. ALL of it.

Barbs can still swing their weapons. Clerics can still heal. Rogues can still disarm traps.

Everyone can do their part.

But they're taking away our main ability.

I also think we're going to return to the stupid days of 'hold or web, then beat' and yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn. those epics were entirely STUPID.

NO ONE wanted to play them, except for hardcore elitist gamers.

We all hated it. Then they finally changed it. And suddenly, people are intereted in using their new abilities in epics.

SO I guess the devs WANT us all to quit epics?

Or they just dislike pale masters so much?

I hear all these screams for nerfing death magic, what about nerfing warforged arcanes so they can't freakin heal to max with one quickened empower?

I think that one change alone would shut everyone up.

Robots shouldn't be the most powerful arcanes in the game.

Robots are the ones who make people say "OMG THAT CASTERS IS SO OVERPOWERED NERF THEM"

In my opinion, of course.

Fleshy wizards need healers. Or a lot of pots. Or to be a pale master, and I'm sorry, but even the pale master abilities won't cover you ALL the time.

Rizzyn
06-08-2012, 10:34 AM
i must admit i have not given a rogue a spin on my account yet. i have yet to try anything that doesnt have a blue bar. please explain to me how the assassinate mechanics work and how you are no logner able to use this ability AT ALL?

like, once the mobs are reduced to 50% can you not asssassinate them? is there a piece of this mechanic i dont get?

Once a mob is reduced to 50% they are subject to an Assassin IIIs Vorpal Strikes, which used the Assassinate DC, I believe.

Assassinate itself is a "Death Effect" that a Rogue at Assassin II can deliver. DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. It must be delivered from Stealth, which is considered a "Stance Mechanic".

With Hard to Kill, one would not be able Assassinate by means of going to a target under Stealth and using the Ability. Being a death effect, it is stopped. But it should be noted, that anything over 1000HP would not die anyway, which is current under Live, and most of the mobs have high HP tallies. However, after it is down to 50% Vorpal Strikes, ManSlayer items, and the use of Diplomacy, Steath, and then Assassinate would work.

I have found it more effective to run with someone else that can get Aggro, making my damage output spike, and creating more opportunities for Vorpal Strikes and ManSlayer.

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 10:34 AM
You must be missing a lot of posts then. But they're taking away our main ability.
I also think we're going to return to the stupid days of 'hold or web, then beat' and yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn. those epics were entirely STUPID.
Fleshy wizards need healers. Or a lot of pots. Or to be a pale master, and I'm sorry, but even the pale master abilities won't cover you ALL the time.

i just dont see this. they are not "taking" your main ability. they are simply delaying its cast. stand back. throw a couple SLA's. throw a circle of death for the energy drain effect. throw a few energy drains..give the tank a chance to round up the whole group. let the group start lowering things to 50%.

at 50%, you will be more effective at Wail than ever before. it isnt a prevention as much as it is a delay.

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 10:37 AM
Once a mob is reduced to 50% they are subject to an Assassin IIIs Vorpal Strikes, which used the Assassinate DC, I believe.

Assassinate itself is a "Death Effect" that a Rogue at Assassin II can deliver. DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. It must be delivered from Stealth, which is considered a "Stance Mechanic".

With Hard to Kill, one would not be able Assassinate by means of going to a target under Stealth and using the Ability. Being a death effect, it is stopped. But it should be noted, that anything over 1000HP would not die anyway, which is current under Live, and most of the mobs have high HP tallies. However, after it is down to 50% Vorpal Strikes, ManSlayer items, and the use of Diplomacy, Steath, and then Assassinate would work.

I have found it more effective to run with someone else that can get Aggro, making my damage output spike, and creating more opportunities for Vorpal Strikes and ManSlayer.

ok...so what im reading here is that assassins are really not even affected by HTK as most everything in epic hard and epic elite has 1000+ hd.

Beethoven
06-08-2012, 10:42 AM
Forzah has a valid point, this is an autokill caster nerf (extending to assassins) and 90% of forumgoers would agree that
well played/built casters > well played/built melee for farming..
xp farming, scroll farming, even just rare item farming....


Actually, no he doesn't unless you also going to argument that those who argue in favor of the current Hard to Kill proposal are also only caster player who want to eliminate competition and make sure their preferred completely broken caster class (sorcerer, favored soul) can reign even worse supreme.

Its inaccurate because the reality is not:
Palemaster > melee
Melee > all other casters.

Currently the situation is:
Casters (Palemaster, Archmages, Savants, Favored Souls, Clerics) > melee

Now you put steps in place to "fix" Palemaster/Archmages and you end up with
Casters (Savants, Favored Souls, Clerics) > melee and
Sorcerer > Wizards

You not actually fixing anything, you just changing the flavor of the month. Also, many people opposed to the change are actually posting they wouldn't have a problem with insta-kills being taken down a notch, just that the current proposal is going a tad too far.

eris2323
06-08-2012, 10:43 AM
i just dont see this. they are not "taking" your main ability. they are simply delaying its cast. stand back. throw a couple SLA's. throw a circle of death for the energy drain effect. throw a few energy drains..give the tank a chance to round up the whole group. let the group start lowering things to 50%.

at 50%, you will be more effective at Wail than ever before. it isnt a prevention as much as it is a delay.

Yeah. That's what I want.

Being forced to use 15 spells so that the melees can feel useful.

No, I want to be a CASTER.

A death caster.

If the 'tank' can't kill things fast enough to get a kill count, that's his problem, not mine. Perhaps he should look at his build for improvements?

For the record - I do not solo epics with my pale master - I bring my friends. I don't know, I might be capable - but I just don't do it.

They seem to enjoy it. And having a caster along makes it faster.

And we all have fun.

Except in the future, I won't be having any fun. I'm not a buffbot. I'm not there to hold anyones hand and make sure they can feel tough enough to swing that big bad axe.

I'm a caster. I kill things. It's what I do.

However, some of those melees can really tear me up, if I make a mistake.

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 10:46 AM
Yeah. That's what I want.

Being forced to use 15 spells so that the melees can feel useful.

No, I want to be a CASTER.

A death caster.

If the 'tank' can't kill things fast enough to get a kill count, that's his problem, not mine. Perhaps he should look at his build for improvements?

For the record - I do not solo epics with my pale master - I bring my friends. I don't know, I might be capable - but I just don't do it.

They seem to enjoy it. And having a caster along makes it faster.

And we all have fun.

Except in the future, I won't be having any fun. I'm not a buffbot. I'm not there to hold anyones hand and make sure they can feel tough enough to swing that big bad axe.

I'm a caster. I kill things. It's what I do.

However, some of those melees can really tear me up, if I make a mistake.

once you start polishing your epic destinies, you are going to be walking around with 60+ DC's on your death magics. You could easily solo any and all epic content with that if there was no restrictions on insta death magics.

Rizzyn
06-08-2012, 10:47 AM
ok...so what im reading here is that assassins are really not even affected by HTK as most everything in epic hard and epic elite has 1000+ hd.

Bear in mind, this is not a complaint from me. I'm OK. But an explanation.

The Assassinate ability is severely curtailed, but in my opinion, in EPICs, it was always severely curtailed. I took it in stride, just as when I run a quest with lots of undead, I remember to bring my Disruptors. When I run a quest with EPIC mobs, I remember to bring my Tank.

As has been stated, this not a "Nerf". As has been stated, this is not insurmountable. It inhibits one ability, that with tactics, comes back into play. On the Shadowdancer Epic Destiny, it curtails some very nice abilities, which may or may not need to be tweaked, depending on perspective. Shadowdancer being new, not everyone has had a chance to figure out how this best suits their style of play.

eris2323
06-08-2012, 10:48 AM
once you start polishing your epic destinies, you are going to be walking around with 60+ DC's on your death magics. You could easily solo any and all epic content with that if there was no restrictions on insta death magics.

60 DC+

on spells i can't use in elite or hard.

No thank you, i'd rather keep it the way it is, if that's the choice. What use is a high DC if we are forbidden from using it until we nuke em down? Makes more sense to be a sorc, nuke nuke nuke.... and hey what's that.... wail is still on my spell list? COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.

darkrune
06-08-2012, 10:53 AM
i just dont see this. they are not "taking" your main ability. they are simply delaying its cast. stand back. throw a couple SLA's. throw a circle of death for the energy drain effect. throw a few energy drains..give the tank a chance to round up the whole group. let the group start lowering things to 50%.

at 50%, you will be more effective at Wail than ever before. it isnt a prevention as much as it is a delay.

So toss out power word kill in all epics as well on hard and elite. Nom they made the spell have a 5 minute cool down already now I can't use it to immediately eliminate the biggest threat in a battle because tada blanket immunity until 50% hp. So instead of killing the cleric tossing comet falls blade barriers etc immediately now I have to wait to 50% AND pray that it doesn't decide to throw mass dw.

Don't believe this happens or want to see what occurs when it does try epic Servants on live now and fight the first big group of drow and let the princesses toss dw before you attack them. Lots of fun there!!!! Hell do it on elite and see how bad that is!

You are eliminating a valuable spell from the epic runs as well as a very viable tactic for grouping.

Siftrant
06-08-2012, 10:55 AM
once you start polishing your epic destinies, you are going to be walking around with 60+ DC's on your death magics. You could easily solo any and all epic content with that if there was no restrictions on insta death magics.

But what's the point of having Epic Destinies to raise my DC if the spell becomes just about useless. Its like having a DC 60+ spell that turns a mob the same color they already are.

Vordax
06-08-2012, 11:00 AM
ok...so what im reading here is that assassins are really not even affected by HTK as most everything in epic hard and epic elite has 1000+ hd.

The poster is incorrect, assassinate works on mobs with greater than 1000HP, the vorpal strikes are what do not work on 1000HP+ mobs.

With hard to kill, there really will be no point in attempting to assassinate, waiting for the mob to get below 1/2 and then do your bluff, sneak, then assassinate would just be slower than dps'ing the mob down.

Rizzyn
06-08-2012, 11:01 AM
So toss out power word kill in all epics as well on hard and elite. Nom they made the spell have a 5 minute cool down already now I can't use it to immediately eliminate the biggest threat in a battle because tada blanket immunity until 50% hp. So instead of killing the cleric tossing comet falls blade barriers etc immediately now I have to wait to 50% AND pray that it doesn't decide to throw mass dw.

Don't believe this happens or want to see what occurs when it does try epic Servants on live now and fight the first big group of drow and let the princesses toss dw before you attack them. Lots of fun there!!!! Hell do it on elite and see how bad that is!

You are eliminating a valuable spell from the epic runs as well as a very viable tactic for grouping.

Power Word Kill would not kill the most difficult target in the room anyway. It would have over 1000HP, and would have to be brought below that threshold, or Energy Drained, before you could hit it. Energy Drain does still work. If it does go live, it would only effect the very highest of 6 possible difficulties. It may not be applied on the old content, and currently is under review in the BETA content. And Mob Casters casting Death Ward at greater difficulties also prevents insta-kills. If you mean easy elimination of trash, then yes, it would be greatly affected in higher-end Epic questions because many trash mobs would have high HP. I'm not seeing a large difference.

If a thing has 2000 HP, it can't be hit by Death Effects anyway, with the exception of 100 pt hit in some cases. You would have to get the target to 1000HP. However, under hard to kill, if a thing had 3000 HP, you'd have to get it to 1500...much better than getting it to 1000. I've run this in test with Pale Masters, an despite the bugs they absolutely had to deal that had nothing to do with this Hard to Kill addition, in a party, they did very well and thanks to other spells they had with high DCs, like Circle of Death, were extraordinarily helpful. They did get many kills, perhaps not as many as before, but I don't think I or they saw that as a problem at the time.

Hafeal
06-08-2012, 11:11 AM
But its all fun.

Where, o where, is your sense of panic? Woe and the end of life as we know it as arrived! http://www.themacguild.net/forums/images/smilies/Sad/bawling.gif


I recommend sticking to either philosophical debates or only use evidence from which you can personally attest.

I can personally attest to unnecessary, frenetic, whining http://www.themacguild.net/forums/images/smilies/Angry/thumbsdown.gif, wailing http://www.themacguild.net/forums/images/smilies/Angry/hissyfit.gifand gnashing of teeth http://www.themacguild.net/forums/images/smilies/Angry/gnasher.gif on these forums over upcoming changes. Hope that helps!

Stillwaters
06-08-2012, 11:39 AM
Actually, no he doesn't unless you also going to argument that those who argue in favor of the current Hard to Kill proposal are also only caster player who want to eliminate competition and make sure their preferred completely broken caster class (sorcerer, favored soul) can reign even worse supreme.

Its inaccurate because the reality is not:
Palemaster > melee
Melee > all other casters. <-- i never said this

Currently the situation is:
Casters (Palemaster, Archmages, Savants, Favored Souls, Clerics) > melee <- this i did say

Now you put steps in place to "fix" Palemaster/Archmages and you end up with
Casters (Savants, Favored Souls, Clerics) > melee and
Sorcerer > Wizards

You not actually fixing anything, you just changing the flavor of the month. Also, many people opposed to the change are actually posting they wouldn't have a problem with insta-kills being taken down a notch, just that the current proposal is going a tad too far.

I think the way they are going about MOST of the new changes is haphazard, rushed, and totally inconsistent..
Combat AC and To-hit changes,
monk melee defenses(or lack of),
stacking FTR str mods with changes to exceptional bonus,
nerfing and denerfing of spell DPS,
changes to min duration of buffs like Shield (another nail in Extend's coffin),
Killing the party friendly displace,
even epic destinies were not made with REAL thought into how they interact with other systems

This HTK thing is just another of those...Bravery bonuses no longer apply if you were mainly instakill without DPS

However instakill casters (I have a PM, and a DC FVS) are overpowered when farming and needed curtailing (not like this though)

Please dont think cause I agreed that casters were OP, or that most ppl have instakill casters I in ANY WAY support this style of idiotic nerfing.

I already pulled my sub on day 1 of closed beta!! I suggest instead of whining ppl do the same.
A lot of us were silly enough to pay em up front for this, and they wont listen til they realize their livelihood is at stake!
Devs/Producers dont listen to negative comments or "im quitting DDO messages" they listen to profits.

darkrune
06-08-2012, 11:48 AM
I think the way they are going about MOST of the new changes is haphazard, rushed, and totally inconsistent...

I already pulled my sub on day 1 of closed beta!! I suggest instead of whining ppl do the same.
Devs/Producers dont listen to negative comments or "im quitting DDO messages" they listen to profits.
A lot of us were silly enough to pay em up front for this, and they wont listen til they realize their livelihood is at stake!

Here is the exact point that I was implying with the OP.

Vellrad
06-08-2012, 11:49 AM
The forums give somewhat of a skewed picture, since most forum posters have a pale master and don't want their shiny toy taken away. In the end everyone will adapt to the change, just as with any change so far.

Many will adapt by ragequitting, others by TRing into sorc.
PM will become something like fire savant now.

donblas
06-08-2012, 11:52 AM
I think the way they are going about MOST of the new changes is haphazard, rushed, and totally inconsistent..
Combat AC and To-hit changes,
monk melee defenses(or lack of),
stacking FTR str mods with changes to exceptional bonus,
nerfing and denerfing of spell DPS,
changes to min duration of buffs like Shield (another nail in Extend's coffin),
Killing the party friendly displace,
even epic destinies were not made with REAL thought into how they interact with other systems

This HTK thing is just another of those...Bravery bonuses no longer apply if you were mainly instakill without DPS

However instakill casters (I have a PM, and a DC FVS) are overpowered when farming and needed curtailing (not like this though)

Please dont think cause I agreed that casters were OP, or that most ppl have instakill casters I in ANY WAY support this style of idiotic nerfing.

I already pulled my sub on day 1 of closed beta!! I suggest instead of whining ppl do the same.
A lot of us were silly enough to pay em up front for this, and they wont listen til they realize their livelihood is at stake!
Devs/Producers dont listen to negative comments or "im quitting DDO messages" they listen to profits.

Wow that's pretty negative :(

Unfortunately I agree with pretty much all of it. :(

Stillwaters
06-08-2012, 11:56 AM
sidenote: Breca actually listened and interacted with players during changes to fatesinger and its gone from the very worst to one of the BEST ed's..

as an eg of how things could/should be done


On any other change we get stone walled by the devs who totally ignore the outcrys
as well as constructive criticism!!

Hafeal
06-08-2012, 11:57 AM
I already pulled my sub on day 1 of closed beta!! I suggest instead of whining ppl do the same.
A lot of us were silly enough to pay em up front for this, and they wont listen til they realize their livelihood is at stake!
Devs/Producers dont listen to negative comments or "im quitting DDO messages" they listen to profits.

Here is the exact point that I was implying with the OP.
So, two posters with forum dates going back to '06 and '09 are complaining as to how the devs are implementing changes ... when they are doing it in a similar fashion to how they have always operated. :rolleyes:

If anything, I actually think the devs have listened more and been more responsive than ever in the past regarding the changes, starting with the "Let's talk ..." threads earlier this year. Did they cover every detail? No - but I would not expect them to either. What is important to one player is irrelevant to another, thus they tend to focus on their opinion of major game changes for feedback.

A thread which only offers a rant stating "Don't make this change" with little or no constructive feedback is simply ignored, and rightly so, by devs. There are better and more constructive ways to get dev attention.

darkrune
06-08-2012, 12:05 PM
sidenote: Breca actually listened and interacted with players during changes to fatesinger and its gone from the very worst to one of the BEST ed's..

as an eg of how things could/should be done


On any other change we get stone walled by the devs who totally ignore the outcrys
as well as constructive criticism!!

Well we can all see how well they are listening to us in the fact that they have been so vocal in the forums on this topic... Oh wait, what's that??? No cookentw on this topic since Tolero responded to me at 2:08 yesterday afternoon saying "we listen and accept ideas all the time" or something similar???

Wow way to let us know you are considering options and our opinions Devs. Bravo. Yet again another reason to totally place faith in them. After all they have never lied to us before, right?!? :rolleyes:

Stillwaters
06-08-2012, 12:07 PM
So, two posters with forum dates going back to '06 and '09 are complaining as to how the devs are implementing changes ... when they are doing it in a similar fashion to how they have always operated. :rolleyes:

For starters this isnt my 1st ddo account.. I too started ddo when "the low road" was a good milestone for melee and Threnal was endgame. I quite often when sitting at a pub after a quest (regenning my hp/sp) had to beg for remove blind or curse.. I too had to work hard before i could even ENTER the marketplace and get brokered equip.

Secondly this is NOT the same ddo, since FTP the game has a low source of income from VIP subs (consistent) and a high source from ppl purchasing TP (inconsistent but heavily marketed)

They know what almost happened to DDO pre ftp model...
Stop paying and they will listen.
These days we get the luxury of continuing to play while they sweat!

maddmatt70
06-08-2012, 12:13 PM
One can debate the particular degree to which the current nerfs compare to prior ones.

But the big picture remains the same: prior nerfs caused lots of players to retire or semi-retire beloved characters that had tons of grinding behind them. And so may the current nerfs.

In my personal experience, I made a fully geared up exploiter tempest build. Every raid run 20x times. Had essentially all the gear. The nerf bat arrived. The build was still solid. But not the bestestestest. So I found myself playing my rogue or kensai fighter when "dps" was needed. And the ranger became all but retired.

And my love for the game remained.

At various times, I've semi-retired every melee character and also various of my casters and other classes. As the game changes, they come back out of retirement and are almost immediately ready to roll.

I initially don't like the nerfs--but then come to enjoy the challenge it brings. Over years of playing, I have a stable of 15+ well built/geared characters of various classes/specialties. When the game changes, my focus changes. I may TR or LR. Or I may switch to other characters. But its all fun.

Yeah that is my philosophy as well. Have a stable of characters which are good at specific things and when that thing they are good at becomes hot in the game I roll that character out and when there is a nerf I play the character less. My warforge sorc and cc bard will both probably get some play this upcoming update at the expense of my instakill divine so what have you.

deahamlet
06-08-2012, 12:14 PM
we are looking at what now? 6 difficulties for each quest now? 4 of those difficulties, instan death works the way it always has. i do not see why the rage. they created 2 difficulties that they intend for us to run in groups. this is not that terrible. y is everyon so insistent that we should be able to solo everything? this is a great game change. especially if the rewards for those difficulties are meaningful.


Let me put it this way.

I won't join groups on my wizard because if I wanted to nuke I'd bring my sorcerer. And I NEVER want to play a CC/haste bot.
I won't join on my divine either because just healing is boring as all hell. In fact this has me so ****ed I don't want to heal pugs ever again, raid, epics, whatever!

I liked throwing implosion as we're running through a quest or raid. I liked destruction and slay living for some actual fun. I kept people alive, and I had fun.
What I'm going to do now is join only on my arti or sorcerer, solo epic normal on my wizard and FvS.

If you WANT to force me into healbot or buffbot, I respond by declining to participate.

Casters are what I love. You know what happens with games all about melee and casters are a pain? I don't spend money on them.

So the problem is that instead of encouraging grouping I feel this **** is discouraging grouping. At least I have zero interest in pugging epic hard or elite. I'll heal friends and guildies or CC for them because we help each other. The rest of DDO can eat the nerf pie they kept clammoring for and hope there's enough people who just like to play healbot.

brzytki
06-08-2012, 01:45 PM
Once a mob is reduced to 50% they are subject to an Assassin IIIs Vorpal Strikes, which used the Assassinate DC, I believe.

Assassinate itself is a "Death Effect" that a Rogue at Assassin II can deliver. DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. It must be delivered from Stealth, which is considered a "Stance Mechanic".

With Hard to Kill, one would not be able Assassinate by means of going to a target under Stealth and using the Ability. Being a death effect, it is stopped. But it should be noted, that anything over 1000HP would not die anyway, which is current under Live, and most of the mobs have high HP tallies. However, after it is down to 50% Vorpal Strikes, ManSlayer items, and the use of Diplomacy, Steath, and then Assassinate would work.

I have found it more effective to run with someone else that can get Aggro, making my damage output spike, and creating more opportunities for Vorpal Strikes and ManSlayer.


ok...so what im reading here is that assassins are really not even affected by HTK as most everything in epic hard and epic elite has 1000+ hd.

Bolded parts are incorrect. Rizzyn, so you have an assassin, claim to be worthy of giving accurate feedback and yet you don't know the class (PrE) you are playing.

As i've already told you in the other DOOM thread the 1000hp cap is only for no resource/action insta-kills, like vorpal (also, assassin's vorpals have no save just like regular weapons). Assassinate is not subjected to this cap. You can easily assassinate a CR1 mob with 1hp or an epic CR40 mob (provided it's not red/purple or orange in epics) with 999k hp. With your 40 DC it's not going to be a noticeable improvement in gameplay (meaning you won't be able to beat mobs' fort saves often) but when you have 44+ DC you can easily see the difference. It's much more efficient to kill 1-2 mobs with one press of the button if you spec'd for it. It simply saves time and resources.

What's the point of Assassinate if you kill a half-dead mob with it? With Epic Failward it's just easier to DPS it down than back away from a mob, stealth+assassinate while those 2 other melees are beating on it.


Power Word Kill would not kill the most difficult target in the room anyway. It would have over 1000HP, and would have to be brought below that threshold, or Energy Drained, before you could hit it. Energy Drain does still work. If it does go live, it would only effect the very highest of 6 possible difficulties. It may not be applied on the old content, and currently is under review in the BETA content. And Mob Casters casting Death Ward at greater difficulties also prevents insta-kills. If you mean easy elimination of trash, then yes, it would be greatly affected in higher-end Epic questions because many trash mobs would have high HP. I'm not seeing a large difference.

If a thing has 2000 HP, it can't be hit by Death Effects anyway, with the exception of 100 pt hit in some cases. You would have to get the target to 1000HP. However, under hard to kill, if a thing had 3000 HP, you'd have to get it to 1500...much better than getting it to 1000. I've run this in test with Pale Masters, an despite the bugs they absolutely had to deal that had nothing to do with this Hard to Kill addition, in a party, they did very well and thanks to other spells they had with high DCs, like Circle of Death, were extraordinarily helpful. They did get many kills, perhaps not as many as before, but I don't think I or they saw that as a problem at the time.

This is also wrong for the same reason mentioned before, only no resource/action insta-kills have the 1000hp cap. And no, you won't be able to vorpal a mob if it has 1500hp (which is its 50% of max), you would still need to bring it down to 1000k hp. About Energy Drain, it doesn't really work like that. Let's say a mob has 1500hp remaining out of his max 2500. If you energy-drain it, it still has 1500hp but his max is reduced - just like equipping/unequipping GFL when you are damaged.

Forzah
06-08-2012, 01:52 PM
You are clearly not a science person. If there is no data, then there is no validity behind the statistical claim. And you don't need to ask everybody. A statistically significant sample population would be sufficient such as, say, 1000 people.

I recommend sticking to either philosophical debates or only use evidence from which you can personally attest.

Haha, I'm actually an academic, but that doesn't mean I want to waste time researching and setting up a survey for something trivial like this. You don't have to do statistical research to make reasonable claims. I'm just counting up all the things I see ingame and on the forums and come to the conclusion that many players have pale masters, and very likely more than half.

A small sample for you: in my guild 9/14 people have a pale master or are in the process of getting past lifes for a pale master (there's 4 archmages too, and I'm the only one without a wizard).

Rizzyn
06-08-2012, 02:35 PM
Bolded parts are incorrect. Rizzyn, so you have an assassin, claim to be worthy of giving accurate feedback and yet you don't know the class (PrE) you are playing.

Perhaps I am unworthy due to my lack of retention regarding the minutiae of the mechanics and mathematics that occur in the background. I shall endeavor to avoid editorializing on matters that seem to be beyond my worth as a player of DDO.

I rendered out my experience, the point of which is that this is much ado about very little. It is not implemented, not running under most of the new content in Beta, and not insurmountable. My main point is I've played a fairly well equipped assassin, that can push his DC to 44, if we need magic numbers, and I didn't feel marginalized, exploited or angry. No, I could not sneak in and assassinate Epic Mobs, nor could they be simply wailed, but I didn't expect to be able to do so -- it was significantly challenging, I had to work with a partner or a team, and I managed very well, thank you.


This is also wrong for the same reason mentioned before, only no resource/action insta-kills have the 1000hp cap. And no, you won't be able to vorpal a mob if it has 1500hp (which is its 50% of max), you would still need to bring it down to 1000k hp. About Energy Drain, it doesn't really work like that. Let's say a mob has 1500hp remaining out of his max 2500. If you energy-drain it, it still has 1500hp but his max is reduced - just like equipping/unequipping GFL when you are damaged.

This is based on my perception that the "1000HP ward" if you will forgive the term, was not active along with Hard to Kill. When we fought, based on some loose numbers garnered from others, some of the mobs had an excessive amount of HP, and seemed vulnerable to death effects before the 1000 mark, provided DCs, crit strikes confirmed, etc happened. It seemed to me they needed softening up by various means. No, I did not break out a calculator, but as an Assassin, I'm still not worried.

Energy Drain lowers their Max HP, and ultimately lowers what 50% means. Which makes it easier to reach that threshold, which is what my statement regarding the Kill spell implied, in the future I will endeavor to be both worthy and explicit.

The bottom line is this; I took my Assassin, level 21, Shadowdancer, Finesse BUild into Epic Hard and higher quests, and did well. I did not feel useless. I did not miss a ton. I did not feel marginalized. I felt my AC, which is fair based on a high DEX, actually helped a bit more, and that uncanny dodge as a cooldown clicky is a lifesaver. You may quote more of the proper perceptions with regard to the rules and jargon if you like, but I played, and I'm OK.

Alcedes
06-08-2012, 02:38 PM
Let me put it this way.

I won't join groups on my wizard because if I wanted to nuke I'd bring my sorcerer. And I NEVER want to play a CC/haste bot.
I won't join on my divine either because just healing is boring as all hell. In fact this has me so ****ed I don't want to heal pugs ever again, raid, epics, whatever!

I liked throwing implosion as we're running through a quest or raid. I liked destruction and slay living for some actual fun. I kept people alive, and I had fun.
What I'm going to do now is join only on my arti or sorcerer, solo epic normal on my wizard and FvS.

If you WANT to force me into healbot or buffbot, I respond by declining to participate.

Casters are what I love. You know what happens with games all about melee and casters are a pain? I don't spend money on them.

So the problem is that instead of encouraging grouping I feel this **** is discouraging grouping. At least I have zero interest in pugging epic hard or elite. I'll heal friends and guildies or CC for them because we help each other. The rest of DDO can eat the nerf pie they kept clammoring for and hope there's enough people who just like to play healbot.

So what you are saying, is that if you cannot walk through the hardest content in the game, and spam AoE instant death spells, demolishing everything in your path without effort, you will jsut take your ball and go home?

KingOfCheese
06-08-2012, 02:43 PM
Haha, I'm actually an academic, but that doesn't mean I want to waste time researching and setting up a survey for something trivial like this. You don't have to do statistical research to make reasonable claims. I'm just counting up all the things I see ingame and on the forums and come to the conclusion that many players have pale masters, and very likely more than half.

A small sample for you: in my guild 9/14 people have a pale master or are in the process of getting past lifes for a pale master (there's 4 archmages too, and I'm the only one without a wizard).

A reasonable estimate could be collected from data without a survey (I could see it being well less than half--but it wouldn't surprise me if it was over 50%). We could take a relatively non-biased sample of forumites and check their MyDDO (even though MyDDO is inaccurate--I can't see a reason why it would be PM biased in any way). This thread would be a bad one--because it selects for interest in the topic. I made a thread on Thelanis that attempted to count the active forumites. Got over 200 responses. That is seem like an reasonably unbiased sample. If someone had the interest, they could check MyDDO and see what percent of those forumites have a high level PM wizzy (or I'd tend to count TR's even if low level). My purely speculative guess would be <25%.

brzytki
06-08-2012, 03:28 PM
I rendered out my experience, the point of which is that this is much ado about very little. It is not implemented, not running under most of the new content in Beta, and not insurmountable. My main point is I've played a fairly well equipped assassin, that can push his DC to 44, if we need magic numbers, and I didn't feel marginalized, exploited or angry. No, I could not sneak in and assassinate Epic Mobs, nor could they be simply wailed, but I didn't expect to be able to do so -- it was significantly challenging, I had to work with a partner or a team, and I managed very well, thank you.

It might be very little for you but what would you say if you had an INT-based assassin whose DC can easily be in 47-52 range counting Shadowdancer? You play the way you said earlier, you don't expect to insta-kill epic mobs on your rogue (taken from previous thread) but those INT-based assassins spec'd for it, same as PMs. Now i agree that mass insta-kills should be toned down but not by introducing blanket DW that affects assassins, monks, Shadwodancers. Don't give me a 'teamwork' argument cause it's flawed if you use it. You think that preventing assassins, monks, Shadowdancers from using their single target insta-kills until mob has 50%hp is going to encourage 'teamwork'? Is it not 'teamwork' if i can get rid of a full hp mob before it does something nasty to my companions? You know that assassinate != coup de grace, right? Cause with HTK, it's slowly changing in that direction, give another year to devs and you'll be only able to assassinate helpless mobs...


This is based on my perception that the "1000HP ward" if you will forgive the term, was not active along with Hard to Kill. When we fought, based on some loose numbers garnered from others, some of the mobs had an excessive amount of HP, and seemed vulnerable to death effects before the 1000 mark, provided DCs, crit strikes confirmed, etc happened. It seemed to me they needed softening up by various means. No, I did not break out a calculator, but as an Assassin, I'm still not worried.
Since there is no indication of a mob having more than 1k hp apart from trying to insta-kill it when the black skull appears, it may or may not seem that they had less than 1k hp. Also, you still remember that death effects that have some cost are not subjects to 1k hp cap, right?


Energy Drain lowers their Max HP, and ultimately lowers what 50% means. Which makes it easier to reach that threshold, which is what my statement regarding the Kill spell implied, in the future I will endeavor to be both worthy and explicit.
Now i don't know how HTK is coded exactly but if it checks current mob's hp vs its current max (not base max), it's basically impossible to bring it down to 50% if you don't damage it in any way. Energy drain is not used to efficiently bring down mob's hp near 50%, it's used to give that mob -2 to rolls, saves, checks or to lvl drain it to death - though it's not efficient sp-wise.


The bottom line is this; I took my Assassin, level 21, Shadowdancer, Finesse BUild into Epic Hard and higher quests, and did well. I did not feel useless. I did not miss a ton. I did not feel marginalized. I felt my AC, which is fair based on a high DEX, actually helped a bit more, and that uncanny dodge as a cooldown clicky is a lifesaver. You may quote more of the proper perceptions with regard to the rules and jargon if you like, but I played, and I'm OK.

The point of this discussion isn't that assassin rogues can't do anything in epics, have useless AC, even worse survivability or they can't hit a thing. It's only about their insta-kills that are pretty much useless in Hard/Elite Epics (which are supposed to be at the same lvl of difficulty as live epics are now). Oh, i'm sure you were ok. Since you previously said you don't use assassinate in epics much. It doesn't mean that there isn't any issue with implementing HTK for others that do use assassinate in epics fairly often or spec'd for it.


So what you are saying, is that if you cannot walk through the hardest content in the game, and spam AoE instant death spells, demolishing everything in your path without effort, you will jsut take your ball and go home?
So what you are saying is that those 3+ TRs (and in most cases 6+ TRs / Completionists) that people spent their time on their PMs does not count as an 'effort'?