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Lithic
06-02-2012, 10:49 AM
This may already exist (I haven't done the tutorial in years), but I'd suggest you have another quest to go buy healing potions at the apothecary in the harbour. Have it bestowed upon arrival in stormreach harbour and send the people to go pick up a package or something. Reward would be 50 heal light wounds potions and maybe a cleric hireling contract.

It's never too early to get new players use to buying their healing supplies, and would help their experience early on.

Charononus
06-02-2012, 11:26 AM
I like this idea a lot /signed

Delssar
06-02-2012, 02:59 PM
What does this teach the person?

That they can heal themselves, then they get up to lets say level 10 (prob more like level 6) and then what.

They cant heal themselves well anymore.


I really dislike these "you have to byoh" people. Im currently playing a level 17 fighter with almost 800hp and has self buffed (with ship buffs) 60 AC (I know AC doesnt count in end game, its not yet endgame)

If I had to bring my own heals, and I got hit a few good times, I'd be sitting for a while out of combat, being of no use to any one healing myself. Is that what we want to teach newbies? "oh go on guys, i'll be 5 mins drinking pots while you finish the quest without me"

/not signed

yawumpus
06-02-2012, 03:36 PM
Live game:

Talbron does suggest breaking open the crates for stuff. The only thing worth looting are started heal pots (players actually running the grotto might not know this).

Players are guided to the hireling vendor. Newbs in need of healing are assumed to notice the availability of a cleric.

The problem:

Pots aren't a viable means of healing newbs. First, they can't afford a stack of pots. Second, if they could afford one they would be far better served leveling up in crafting (3-4 levels?) and making an invulnerability shard. Maybe with a bit of gear (from a twinker's perspective) they could support a pot habit, but it would be tough.

I admit this is a problem. Lowering the price of healing pots would be yet another "easy button". The already existing "easy button", cleric hirelings, do little but teach non-divines that a cleric's role is to wipe their boo-boos as they appear.

Wands might be in the range an unfunded first life can afford, but Turbine has seen fit to nerf rangers and paladins enough to make this pointless. Don't know when an ungeared rogue (nerfed even harder) can UMD a CLW wand, but it would take awhile.

Maybe a workable solution is to make a "bottomless pot of healing" that works similar to the eternal wand of healing. Drink, heal 1 point, short cooldown, drink...

dredre9987
06-02-2012, 03:43 PM
So wait ( to the last poster ) you say don't drop the price because of an "easy button" but go on to say make a bottomless pot? ***?

Quarterling
06-02-2012, 03:44 PM
What does this teach the person?

That they can heal themselves

/not signed

I fail to see how it is bad to teach a new player that they can heal themselves by drinking pots. :confused::rolleyes:

KillEveryone
06-02-2012, 03:53 PM
What does this teach the person?

That they can heal themselves, then they get up to lets say level 10 (prob more like level 6) and then what.

They cant heal themselves well anymore.


I really dislike these "you have to byoh" people. Im currently playing a level 17 fighter with almost 800hp and has self buffed (with ship buffs) 60 AC (I know AC doesnt count in end game, its not yet endgame)

If I had to bring my own heals, and I got hit a few good times, I'd be sitting for a while out of combat, being of no use to any one healing myself. Is that what we want to teach newbies? "oh go on guys, i'll be 5 mins drinking pots while you finish the quest without me"

/not signed

So, you don't want them to know about pots? /not signed to that.

They are not always about BYOH. You can top off in between fights. They are not always the best to have but it is better than having nothing at all.

~Quilny
06-02-2012, 03:53 PM
What does this teach the person?

That they can heal themselves, then they get up to lets say level 10 (prob more like level 6) and then what.

They cant heal themselves well anymore.


I really dislike these "you have to byoh" people. Im currently playing a level 17 fighter with almost 800hp and has self buffed (with ship buffs) 60 AC (I know AC doesnt count in end game, its not yet endgame)

If I had to bring my own heals, and I got hit a few good times, I'd be sitting for a while out of combat, being of no use to any one healing myself. Is that what we want to teach newbies? "oh go on guys, i'll be 5 mins drinking pots while you finish the quest without me"

/not signed

Any class any race can heal themselves just fine if specced right without loosing dps hp ac dr ect ect... gets the idea into their heads that it is possible.
Im not saying we should always run without a healer that would put me out of a job but instead of waiting for a healer to join they can save time by starting up the quest.

basically healer in party = less pot usage / less scroll usage / less wand usage :D


/signed great idea

~Quilny
06-02-2012, 03:55 PM
What does this teach the person?

That they can heal themselves, then they get up to lets say level 10 (prob more like level 6) and then what.

They cant heal themselves well anymore.


I really dislike these "you have to byoh" people. Im currently playing a level 17 fighter with almost 800hp and has self buffed (with ship buffs) 60 AC (I know AC doesnt count in end game, its not yet endgame)

If I had to bring my own heals, and I got hit a few good times, I'd be sitting for a while out of combat, being of no use to any one healing myself. Is that what we want to teach newbies? "oh go on guys, i'll be 5 mins drinking pots while you finish the quest without me"

/not signed


oh also i use heal pots when I do cruicble swim because you can heal youself underwater with them. just fyi HEAL POTS RULE!!!!!!!

~Quilny
06-02-2012, 04:01 PM
Live game:
Pots aren't a viable means of healing newbs. First, they can't afford a stack of pots..

Its Insanely Easy to make plat in this game just by doign the Korthos quest 1 time each i end up with liek 40greater essence which sell really well and if you get collectables you can sell some of those as well for a nice price. if you take the items you loot to craftign hall you can crunch them which gives you MONEY then sell the essences for more money.


Just crunching items gives you plat it not a lot of plat but if you count how much you cna sell the greaters and lesser for it is way more plat then just vendor trashing. Plat is super easy to get you have got to be kidding me.

Purgatory
06-02-2012, 04:01 PM
/signed


This would be great, but sadely enuf there is way to many people dont read a short lfm much less follow the tutorials.

Maxallu
06-02-2012, 04:06 PM
Yes good idea. All toons should have a stack of pots on them. Melees should have 3.


All you who are not signed are silly. Take some responsibility for your red bar.

Chette
06-02-2012, 04:08 PM
What does this teach the person?

That they can heal themselves, then they get up to lets say level 10 (prob more like level 6) and then what.

They cant heal themselves well anymore.


I really dislike these "you have to byoh" people. Im currently playing a level 17 fighter with almost 800hp and has self buffed (with ship buffs) 60 AC (I know AC doesnt count in end game, its not yet endgame)

If I had to bring my own heals, and I got hit a few good times, I'd be sitting for a while out of combat, being of no use to any one healing myself. Is that what we want to teach newbies? "oh go on guys, i'll be 5 mins drinking pots while you finish the quest without me"

/not signed

Get some healing amp
Get a displace clicky
Get a stoneskin clicky
...
Profit

As a fighter one might assume you also have, oh, I dunno, trip, or stunning blow, or anything other than hitpoints, to prevent yourself from taking constant damage as well.

Seriously, I heal myself with heal potions pretty much all the way to end game. No, it's not ideal, but it can easily be done. Drink while running.

Great suggestion OP, /signed indeed.

GeneralDiomedes
06-02-2012, 04:11 PM
I doubt the real problem is lack of awareness healing pots can be purchased, I suspect the problem is lack of will to purchasing healing pots.

It might help some small amount, but you can't really socially engineer good players.

Imatotalnoob
06-02-2012, 04:19 PM
/signed

You could add wands to heal at 1st lvl for the classes that can

I remember looking blankly at the cleric waiting for them to
turn into a soul stone on my ranger not knowing that if I had
bought a wand I could have got then up.

Cheers

baii
06-02-2012, 04:34 PM
50 clw pot for every new character will ruin the DDO economy.

Lithic
06-02-2012, 04:40 PM
/signed

You could add wands to heal at 1st lvl for the classes that can

I remember looking blankly at the cleric waiting for them to
turn into a soul stone on my ranger not knowing that if I had
bought a wand I could have got then up.

Cheers

There's an eternal healing wand at the end of catacombs that I think paladins and rangers an use. Wouldn't hurt to put cure light wands in the vendor that a new potion quest might lead you to.

Lithic
06-02-2012, 04:43 PM
50 clw pot for every new character will ruin the DDO economy.

Hopefully the above was sarcasm. Heal light pots are BTC and worth nothing at the vendor iirc. Even if it was 50unbound clw pots, anyone dumb enough to create characters to farm these is welcome to wasting their time. Your make more money running any lvl 4+ quest on casual.

Delssar
06-02-2012, 05:04 PM
So, you don't want them to know about pots? /not signed to that..

Its fine to know about pots, but they should also teach them that at about 6th level they because useless inside a combat situation. Its all good if you can "top up" after a fight, but in the middle of one, useless. After a fight if you're knocked down to 10% hp, pretty much useless unless you want to spend a couple thousand plat and waste a few mins of your time.




Any class any race can heal themselves just fine if specced right without loosing dps hp ac dr ect ect... gets the idea into their heads that it is possible.
Im not saying we should always run without a healer that would put me out of a job but instead of waiting for a healer to join they can save time by starting up the quest.

basically healer in party = less pot usage / less scroll usage / less wand usage :D


/signed great idea

Yes any class can, but how about newbies, which is what this is about.

If a cleric or FvS is using pots, scrolls and wands in a regular quest (at level elite) he or she is doing something wrong. Scrolls and pots are worst case scenario sorta things and wands other then buffing are a waste of backpack space imho. Yes I play a few clerics, not healbots either and Iv used 1 major pot so far on him and it was while soloing.




oh also i use heal pots when I do cruicble swim because you can heal youself underwater with them. just fyi HEAL POTS RULE!!!!!!!

Iv used cure pots while swimming as well, they still dont rule.



Get some healing amp
Get a displace clicky
Get a stoneskin clicky
...
Profit

As a fighter one might assume you also have, oh, I dunno, trip, or stunning blow, or anything other than hitpoints, to prevent yourself from taking constant damage as well.

Seriously, I heal myself with heal potions pretty much all the way to end game. No, it's not ideal, but it can easily be done. Drink while running.

Great suggestion OP, /signed indeed.

have a decent healing amp, have a ghostly item, have stoneskin clicky.
Yes, of course.
Drink while running is maybe okay for something like a monk or barb, but what about people who play stalward's. You want them to get left even farther behind the group?

arminius
06-02-2012, 05:10 PM
This thread would only confuse the people you are trying to help, since there is no such thing as a heal pot.

People would be skipping over all the cure pots as being too ineffectual and going on a snipe hunt for heal pot.

Now you could have a tutorial about Silver Flame pots, but that would be even more discouraging. It would essentially say that for the average character, the only effective BYOH you can have is this, which apart from being a complete PITA to get, with the majority of characters still around from 2006 still not obtaining the rights to get, since the quests for it are hands down the least popular in the whole game, but then when you do finally get these Holy Grail pots, oh by the way it will heal you but otherwise act in a more devastating manner than any poison currently in the game.

I do have a healing amp Barb that can BYOH very effectively, with CSW pots hitting in the 60's, which actually moves the bar in a way that is perceptible by the human eye. But no one should presume that all characters can max healing amp. So for the average melee, a CSW pot = p*ssing in a river, and watching it rise.

yawumpus
06-02-2012, 05:18 PM
There's an eternal healing wand at the end of catacombs that I think paladins and rangers an use. Wouldn't hurt to put cure light wands in the vendor that a new potion quest might lead you to.

Rangers have to UMD it (or did years ago when I had a low-UMD ranger). I suspect paladins are the same. That said, it *is* an eternal wand: failures hardly are that painful.

grayham
06-02-2012, 05:21 PM
/Signed.

But not with any ringing endorsement. It wouldn't do any harm, and it would help players to know how to take care of themselves in certain situations, but it's neither a pressing issue or a game-changing one. 99% of players with any experience of other games must wonder whether there's a self healing potion anyway, you haven't identified a real gap in knowledge. As others have said, it might help them in normal/hard quests up to about level 8-9, then after that it's more difficult.

An alternative would be an NPC with the title "Healing Trainer" or "Positive energy reader" or somesuch, who can tell you more about what options are available to your race/class and give examples of how it would work in practice, i.e:

"As a Half-orc barbarian you have no enhancement options for healing amplification, but you can find sources of healing amp in gear etc etc"

or

"As a human you can choose to spend action points on improved recovery. The first tier at 10% will make any healing spell that would normally heal for 100 heal for 110"

You see where I'm going.

pHo3nix
06-02-2012, 06:46 PM
/signed

@Delssar: i self-heal on most toons (even clr/fvs) with basically only pots until lvl 10-11. You know you can drink while jumping so you do not waste time? With some healing amplification and a little of tactic potions can be enough until lvl 20.

KillEveryone
06-02-2012, 07:02 PM
Its fine to know about pots, but they should also teach them that at about 6th level they because useless inside a combat situation. Its all good if you can "top up" after a fight, but in the middle of one, useless. After a fight if you're knocked down to 10% hp, pretty much useless unless you want to spend a couple thousand plat and waste a few mins of your time.





Yes any class can, but how about newbies, which is what this is about.

If a cleric or FvS is using pots, scrolls and wands in a regular quest (at level elite) he or she is doing something wrong. Scrolls and pots are worst case scenario sorta things and wands other then buffing are a waste of backpack space imho. Yes I play a few clerics, not healbots either and Iv used 1 major pot so far on him and it was while soloing.





Iv used cure pots while swimming as well, they still dont rule.




have a decent healing amp, have a ghostly item, have stoneskin clicky.
Yes, of course.
Drink while running is maybe okay for something like a monk or barb, but what about people who play stalward's. You want them to get left even farther behind the group?

You are underrating them.

Everyone should have several stacks on them once they can get enough plat to purchase them, even divine types.

They would be much better served knowing and being encouraged to carry pots because there are times when a divine isn't going to be there to help you, like if they are DCing and you haven't realized it. Party wipes could have been prevented if the players had the foresight to carry some kind of heals instead of relying on that one person to keep their health up.

Drinking while running is fine for every class. If a stalwart was getting hit and taking damage, they have other problems because they shouldn't have been getting hit since part of that PrE is AC.

If you need to step out of combat to drink a few, that is also valid. Sometimes you have to and divine types don't get any kind of mass spells till after lvl 6 so targeting several different people can be difficult if the players are not using any kind of brain to try and avoid some damage or use tactics to reduce any incoming damage. This is why people end up dying.

They are incredibly handy to have.

Many new players don't know about them, some only finding out about them after I've given them several stacks because they were constantly low on HP and taxing the divine too much.

I don't see how wands can be a waste of a backpack space. I think you have other problems if you feel that way about wands.

Chette
06-02-2012, 07:04 PM
Drink while running is maybe okay for something like a monk or barb, but what about people who play stalward's. You want them to get left even farther behind the group?

Jump, chug, repeat. Cycle in a haste potion every 30 seconds. You'll keep up just fine.

Delssar
06-02-2012, 07:23 PM
Jump, chug, repeat. Cycle in a haste potion every 30 seconds. You'll keep up just fine.

Alright, and just how much is that going to cost me?

Idk about other people but I usually have a max of 5k plat on a toon. Usually because I get the money I need, blow it all on 1 item, and I dont rip people off in the AH.

Instead of having the cure pot guide, I think they should talk about other pots. curse pots, blindness removal, etc. Because those are the things I see newbies having a problem with.

Chette
06-03-2012, 12:14 AM
Alright, and just how much is that going to cost me?

Idk about other people but I usually have a max of 5k plat on a toon. Usually because I get the money I need, blow it all on 1 item, and I dont rip people off in the AH.

Instead of having the cure pot guide, I think they should talk about other pots. curse pots, blindness removal, etc. Because those are the things I see newbies having a problem with.

Yep, show them all.

I'm not asking newbies to chain chug cure potions and haste potions, even though that's what I do. But if they're around the corner and at 10 hp, they should know to drink one, instead of screaming over voice for the cleric to come find them. If the healer is out of SP, they should be able to cover themselves until the next shrine.

We all start small. I remember I collected like 15 cure light wounds potions on my first character and thought, "Oh boy, I'm so uber, I bet I can take on haverdasher on hard with this many potions!" (for the record I could not take on haverdasher on hard, even with 15 cure light wounds potions, and I died horribly). But teaching people how to not die, through cure potions, curse potions, etc, is an important part to teaching them how to play with other people. Start by using potions in emergencies, move towards topping yourself up between fights. Every little bit of self sufficiency helps parties move more smoothly, and people that have smooth parties are more likely to stick around and keep playing.

Saiyren
06-03-2012, 01:30 AM
If a new player did the tutorial with Jeets, they'd have a few hundred gold and several cure light pots and I'm sure they can figure out what to do with the pots if they scroll over and read what it says. It's not rocket science, but as others have stated, it's about what are they willing to do/not to do. Most aren't willing to actually take the time to read/figure it out. Instant gratification is what it's all about.

Delt
06-03-2012, 02:23 AM
There's a natural progression to this game, players don't tumble into Korthos with a wallet full of plat, years of quest knowledge and build mastery. All of us went through it (or are going through it).

Accept that and quit making stupid suggestion threads bemoaning players that don't:

- self heal
- understand all acronyms & terms
- know where every quest is
- blah, blah, blah <insert jaded vet *****ing here>

If you are so traumatized by grouping with new players, stop Pugging.

Bacab
06-03-2012, 02:29 AM
What does this teach the person?

That they can heal themselves, then they get up to lets say level 10 (prob more like level 6) and then what.

They cant heal themselves well anymore.


I really dislike these "you have to byoh" people. Im currently playing a level 17 fighter with almost 800hp and has self buffed (with ship buffs) 60 AC (I know AC doesnt count in end game, its not yet endgame)

If I had to bring my own heals, and I got hit a few good times, I'd be sitting for a while out of combat, being of no use to any one healing myself. Is that what we want to teach newbies? "oh go on guys, i'll be 5 mins drinking pots while you finish the quest without me"

/not signed

It teaches them to be self-sufficient...

Evidently we need a "buy healing potions" quest in the Vale too since you somehow made it that far.

Turtlsdown
06-03-2012, 02:30 AM
How does a newbie player get a stoneskin clicky?

sirgog
06-03-2012, 02:30 AM
/signed.

Cure Light Wounds potions are something someone totally new should invest in a stack of.

Once you aren't broke (level 8 or so for most I'd say), upgrade to the potions that heal three times as much for fifteen times the price.

pHo3nix
06-03-2012, 03:38 AM
There's a natural progression to this game, players don't tumble into Korthos with a wallet full of plat, years of quest knowledge and build mastery. All of us went through it (or are going through it).

Accept that and quit making stupid suggestion threads bemoaning players that don't:

- self heal
- understand all acronyms & terms
- know where every quest is
- blah, blah, blah <insert jaded vet *****ing here>

If you are so traumatized by grouping with new players, stop Pugging.

Nobody here spawned in korthos with capped plat (i do not have capped plat even now :p) and with the knowledge of all quests.

We learned by playing and failing, soloing to know quests really well and reentering if something went wrong.

Seems that new players want guaranteed success on everything they do. Fails are part of the game, learn to deal with them ;)

Delssar
06-03-2012, 04:51 AM
It teaches them to be self-sufficient...

Evidently we need a "buy healing potions" quest in the Vale too since you somehow made it that far.

Iv made it that far with 7 out of 32 toons because of meta game knowledge and a photographic memory of quests. (and because out of those 7 only two would need to chug pots, my fighter and barb).

Svet
06-03-2012, 06:57 AM
This may already exist (I haven't done the tutorial in years), but I'd suggest you have another quest to go buy healing potions at the apothecary in the harbour. Have it bestowed upon arrival in stormreach harbour and send the people to go pick up a package or something. Reward would be 50 heal light wounds potions and maybe a cleric hireling contract.

It's never too early to get new players use to buying their healing supplies, and would help their experience early on.

This might be the the single best newbie-oriented idea. I don't think there's something in the tutorial that introduces new players to consumables at the moment (there seemed to be a message about getting low on health, but it's brief and not very specific, IIRC).

/signed

Tshober
06-03-2012, 08:38 AM
/not signed

I think this is not a very good idea. All it teaches a new player is how to waste plat. A cleric or fvs hireling is a FAR better option than heal pots. Costs way, way less per HP healed. And I am also not a big fan of the BYOH crowd. Teach new players teamwork, not elitist zerg tactics. They will get plenty of that later on when they try to find good groups.

Galeria
06-03-2012, 09:00 AM
After starting over on a new server, picking up every drop out of every breakable and going broke buying inscription materials to learn my spells at like, level 8 or so, I think a lot of people just don't remember what it's like to start with nothing.

It's.. nothing. Seriously.

And without a Shroud farmer to gather extra plat, it takes a long time to get enough plat for a stack of 100 CSW.

Should new players be introduced to the great survivablity and self help of potions? Absolutely. Should you expect a new toon to be fully stocked? Not possible.

Want to help a newb? Drop a stack of 100 CSW in a trade window.

Gkar
06-03-2012, 09:07 AM
What does this teach the person?

That they can heal themselves, then they get up to lets say level 10 (prob more like level 6) and then what.

They cant heal themselves well anymore.

Nonsense, of course they can still heal themselves. Almost every class can be self sufficient. For extremely high HP characters, that means HE Cleric/FvS dilly, UMD and/or SF pots at high level.

Low and medium levels (well beyond the L6 you suggested lol) there is no problem self healing without UMD/SF/dilly. One class in a wand whipping class can work just fine up to at least GH level as well.

I do have sympathy for NEW players. On your first char at low level it is tougher to get pots/wands.

KillEveryone
06-03-2012, 10:12 AM
/not signed

I think this is not a very good idea. All it teaches a new player is how to waste plat. A cleric or fvs hireling is a FAR better option than heal pots. Costs way, way less per HP healed. And I am also not a big fan of the BYOH crowd. Teach new players teamwork, not elitist zerg tactics. They will get plenty of that later on when they try to find good groups.

Talk about elitist. Such a attitude as yours about these so called tactics is quite elitist.

It's attitudes like yours that make people like me call you various names under the sun, and it is all because of your elitist attitude.

It isn't about BYOH croud.

It isn't about zerg tactics.

It is about learning that there is a way for you to heal yourself when you are out of divine range and need a heal or end up a soul stone.

Seriously, get a clue.

~Quilny
06-03-2012, 10:30 AM
This thread would only confuse the people you are trying to help, since there is no such thing as a heal pot.

People would be skipping over all the cure pots as being too ineffectual and going on a snipe hunt for heal pot.

Now you could have a tutorial about Silver Flame pots, but that would be even more discouraging. It would essentially say that for the average character, the only effective BYOH you can have is this, which apart from being a complete PITA to get, with the majority of characters still around from 2006 still not obtaining the rights to get, since the quests for it are hands down the least popular in the whole game, but then when you do finally get these Holy Grail pots, oh by the way it will heal you but otherwise act in a more devastating manner than any poison currently in the game.

I do have a healing amp Barb that can BYOH very effectively, with CSW pots hitting in the 60's, which actually moves the bar in a way that is perceptible by the human eye. But no one should presume that all characters can max healing amp. So for the average melee, a CSW pot = p*ssing in a river, and watching it rise.

rofl very true there is no such thing as heal pots as of 6/3/2012 just incase they do make them in the future don't want a futre troll getting me for saying something wrong :D. but Cure serious wound pots are great for crucible swim With enough HP and CSW pots you can do swim without evasion :D.

as far as I know its onlythign that can heal you while underwater at the moment so very very handy in rough spots not just cruicble swim.

~Quilny
06-03-2012, 10:34 AM
Want to help a newb? Drop a stack of 100 CSW in a trade window.

sounds like you are against the post but what you just said there makes it so i like this Idea even more it gives newer players 50 pots

MRMechMan
06-03-2012, 10:42 AM
What does this teach the person?

That they can heal themselves, then they get up to lets say level 10 (prob more like level 6) and then what.

They cant heal themselves well anymore.


I really dislike these "you have to byoh" people. Im currently playing a level 17 fighter with almost 800hp and has self buffed (with ship buffs) 60 AC (I know AC doesnt count in end game, its not yet endgame)

If I had to bring my own heals, and I got hit a few good times, I'd be sitting for a while out of combat, being of no use to any one healing myself. Is that what we want to teach newbies? "oh go on guys, i'll be 5 mins drinking pots while you finish the quest without me"

/not signed

You are right. This will lead to people getting spoilt off of their 50 cure light wounds pots. Actually, we should do away with cure pots entirely as they are deceptive and lead people to make builds that cannot self heal later.

Sort of like yours.

So what is your excuse? 800hp at level 17? If you had dropped a couple toughnesses maybe you could get decent DPS/tactical feats and wouldn't need a healer strapped to your waist. Splash some rogue/arti/bard for UMD.

Don't complain about lack of self healing when it is so easy to build for.

Seriously, I don't see how showing players that they can be more self sufficient at low levels is a bad thing.



Iv made it that far with 7 out of 32 toons because of meta game knowledge and a photographic memory of quests. (and because out of those 7 only two would need to chug pots, my fighter and barb).

Well bravo.

OP...
/signed.

Tshober
06-03-2012, 11:13 AM
Actually, we should do away with cure pots entirely as they are deceptive and lead people to make builds that cannot self heal later.

I would be very much okay with it if no vendors in DDO sold heal pots. In all the time i have been playing DDO I have never bought a heal pot from a vendor. I have plenty of them in my inventory so I can use then in an emergency, like if the player or hireling healer is dead. But I didn't buy any of them. I either picked them up or traded in collectables for them. I rely on player or hireling healers for heals, in non-emergency situations, because it is just far more effecient than buying heal pots and drinking them like water. And yes, I do play healers too.

Xynot2
06-03-2012, 11:56 AM
>.<

Healers ARE for wiping boo boos
BYOH is a soloist mentality and Im not going to conform to your play ideal because you want everyone to play like you
Healers ARE for wiping boo boos
If you want to play battle clerics then play battle clerics but SAY you are
Healers ARE for wiping boo boos
Quit trying to turn DDO into solos r us to suit your game style
Healers ARE for wiping boo boos

Delssar
06-03-2012, 12:07 PM
So what is your excuse? 800hp at level 17? If you had dropped a couple toughnesses maybe you could get decent DPS/tactical feats and wouldn't need a healer strapped to your waist. Splash some rogue/arti/bard for UMD.



Party leaders don't see DPS though, they see HP

If they seen dps they would accept my rogue and monk/rogue in parties (which they rarely do)

Talon_Moonshadow
06-03-2012, 12:28 PM
Sounds like a great idea for new players;


but how do we teach the old players? :cool:

Xynot2
06-03-2012, 12:32 PM
Party leaders don't see DPS though, they see HP

If they seen dps they would accept my rogue and monk/rogue in parties (which they rarely do)
^ this

fco-karatekid
06-03-2012, 12:32 PM
Easy fix without all the drama:

Have Ron White do a voiceover the moment you arrivein Korthos proper...

"Go buy a heal pot..."

"Drink the damn heal pot..."

Xynot2
06-03-2012, 12:35 PM
Easy fix without all the drama:

Have Ron White do a voiceover the moment you arrivein Korthos proper...

"Go buy a heal pot..."

"Drink the damn heal pot..."

Better yet... Have Christopher Walken do it. Then you KNOW they'll do it.

Orratti
06-03-2012, 12:36 PM
This won't do what you are thinking it will do. Even giving them the potions AND an explanation about hot barring them that wouldn't be effective enough for a new player.

This won't teach them anything about damage mitigation, using tactics, or anything else that will make pots work effectively for a player. You can understand this by the replies you've gotten so far. There are ways to avoid getting hit, avoid massive weapon and spell damage, and absorb damage that aren't included in your use pots tutorial quest. Using these various thing effectively I can pot heal myself with cure serious pots through most fights just by not needing to use any pots until the fight is over.

What I would rather see than a tutorial is this.

A player's handbook written by the staff and put into the UI. It would be fine to put it into forums but only 5% of us according to the devs know that it even exists. Putting the handbook in the UI may not cause them to use it but even if they take a couple of minutes to look at it and never use it again it would at the least leave them with the impression that there is alot to learn.

A monster manual written by the staff. I don't care if it is on the UI or on the home page.

A dungeon master's guide would also be nice to look over but unnessary.

I'm used to using these tool and they are actually good to have. The wiki is good the compendium is awful. Just a flat book setup. Index and information. No imput from players etc.

You won't play the game a week before someone will tell you to go buy pots. New players learn by asking or by someone telling them. No need for a tutorial really. Either they will get it and buy them or they will be cheap and refuse but they'll know they're there to be used quickly.

Xynot2
06-03-2012, 12:42 PM
A monster manual written by the staff. I don't care if it is on the UI or on the home page.



I like this. Something like the one in Metroid where you get the monster added to your lore after encountering it.

And the players handbook would be a good thread to start all on it's own.

Delt
06-03-2012, 01:30 PM
I like this. Something like the one in Metroid where you get the monster added to your lore after encountering it.

And the players handbook would be a good thread to start all on it's own.

Suggestion is already on it's way. And I am still lol'ing @ this thread, despite the neg rep. It's started by a completionist...

New players don't have the plat for pots, I don't expect them too. And what will a stack of CLWs really do post 10+? Some of you jaded complainers will still be here on the forums going "haha, some noobie spent 5 minutes ghetto potting in a quest and we finished before he healed. Let's have a tutorial that explains different Cure pots are required at different levels! Derp!".

Zachski
06-03-2012, 01:49 PM
New players don't have the plat to buy anything of significance after Korthos, because Greater Essences don't drop on level 1 quests.

Level 3 quests is when they start dropping, and guess, what, new players do not enter the game being able to open everything on elite :D And hard is probably going to be too hard for them.

Honestly, for leveling while solo, cleric hirelings are far more money efficient than anything. And if they're partying with a cleric, well, the cleric should probably be helping with healing, even while they do other stuff.

Pots do not substitute for a good healing, and they never should. Pots are for topping up, but healers are for combat :D

Also, if you really want to roll up a self-healing melee, you should be rolling up a Paladin.

Xynot2
06-03-2012, 01:57 PM
Also, if you really want to roll up a self-healing melee, you should be rolling up a Paladin.

Ewwww. Smelly do gooders?

AtomicMew
06-03-2012, 02:21 PM
Its fine to know about pots, but they should also teach them that at about 6th level they because useless inside a combat situation. Its all good if you can "top up" after a fight, but in the middle of one, useless. After a fight if you're knocked down to 10% hp, pretty much useless unless you want to spend a couple thousand plat and waste a few mins of your time.





Yes any class can, but how about newbies, which is what this is about.

If a cleric or FvS is using pots, scrolls and wands in a regular quest (at level elite) he or she is doing something wrong. Scrolls and pots are worst case scenario sorta things and wands other then buffing are a waste of backpack space imho. Yes I play a few clerics, not healbots either and Iv used 1 major pot so far on him and it was while soloing.





Iv used cure pots while swimming as well, they still dont rule.




have a decent healing amp, have a ghostly item, have stoneskin clicky.
Yes, of course.
Drink while running is maybe okay for something like a monk or barb, but what about people who play stalward's. You want them to get left even farther behind the group?

The problem is, you playing a stalwart to level. Why would you do that to yourself? Level up as a kensai and respec at cap if you want to. No wonder your taking so much damage,

Ungood
06-03-2012, 03:48 PM
Get some healing amp
Get a displace clicky
Get a stoneskin clicky
...
Profit

They should put all those things in the Krothos starting quest, as opposed to junk they give you now. Start a player off right.

But starting off by dumping some cure pots on a new player, great idea, they should do that, along with finishing the idea idea out by also doing:



They should also put Cure Critical Pots, and Pots with Higher Caster Level, like have have Guild Vendor pots be Caster level +2 over normal pots.
They should also allow for House J to sell higher Level Cure Pots as well.
They could also lower the favor the Lesser SF Pots, to say 200 as opposed to the 400, the all or nothing the SF vendor has right now is very poorly implemented.
They should also increase Regen from 1/1 min to 1/6 seconds, with Greater Regen being 1/2 seconds, and allow all Regen effects to stack.


That way, they can make a real difference in the game.

I love these topics and ideas, the Irony is endlessly amusing.

The only thing I do not grasp is when I see some melee spout off how they heal themselves just fine and that better options should not be put in. Never quite understood that. But hey, if being sub-par works them, who am I to interject logic into that belief system.

Claransa
06-03-2012, 06:35 PM
This may already exist (I haven't done the tutorial in years), but I'd suggest you have another quest to go buy healing potions at the apothecary in the harbour. Have it bestowed upon arrival in stormreach harbour and send the people to go pick up a package or something. Reward would be 50 heal light wounds potions and maybe a cleric hireling contract.

It's never too early to get new players use to buying their healing supplies, and would help their experience early on.

Interestingly enough they did add a tutorial to korthos that teaches all new players how to get a rez cake from the store.

Ironic isn't it?

Jay203
06-03-2012, 06:39 PM
i think the old "training" halls from way back are needed again
except for the fighting room, add in extra lesson that passes a couple healing potions to the player and telling them they can heal themselves with potions after battles

VorpalLaugh
06-03-2012, 08:02 PM
While I do not oppose the idea, I am kinda surprise that even new players don't know that
they can drink potions to heal themselves. Maybe its my experience with both single player
rpgs and pnp that taught the importance of having healing potions. Also, maybe I am just lucky,
but I seem to find clw pots all over the place, I am lowbie so they still help.

I found out having a potion to drink during combat, can be life saver even if you have healer
with you, either a player or hireling, because sometimes they can't heal you right away. Definitely
something I learned in PNP

Forzah
06-04-2012, 04:30 AM
A new player can hardly afford pots. Notice this every time I create a new toon and forget to send money :p

Charononus
06-04-2012, 05:03 AM
>.<

Healers ARE for wiping boo boos
BYOH is a soloist mentality and Im not going to conform to your play ideal because you want everyone to play like you
Healers ARE for wiping boo boos
If you want to play battle clerics then play battle clerics but SAY you are
Healers ARE for wiping boo boos
Quit trying to turn DDO into solos r us to suit your game style
Healers ARE for wiping boo boos

Not saying a cleric won't heal you or that you have to join byoh lfm's. However all characters should be able to top off outside of combat instead of "heal plz" and you can allways tell the new divine because they try to top everyone outside of combat and are out of sp so fast rather than just letting the drag on their blue bar die and dropping their soul stone off at a shrine or in a pool of lava.

Alrik_Fassbauer
06-04-2012, 09:59 AM
This may already exist (I haven't done the tutorial in years), but I'd suggest you have another quest to go buy healing potions at the apothecary in the harbour. Have it bestowed upon arrival in stormreach harbour and send the people to go pick up a package or something. Reward would be 50 heal light wounds potions and maybe a cleric hireling contract.

It's never too early to get new players use to buying their healing supplies, and would help their experience early on.

/signed

Xynot2
06-04-2012, 10:50 AM
Y'all have been here too long. The very first *quest* a new guy does it with Jeets. There are a bunch of boxes to break and the drops are either copper or cure light pots. They know that it's there.

I think you're looking at it from the entirely wrong angle. Maybe a smartazz cleric hireling that say, *Why dont you heal yourself once in a while? You have potions.*

And there is potions available at the vendor in Korthos. What you are talking about is changing people's ideals about the role of a healer. And for at least half of the population, that's not gonna happen. So deal with it. You want to encourage potion use, make them less expensive. With the amount of time it takes to use a potion, it will never be a game breaker but at least you're on the right path.

Further, lowbies dont have a stash of cash. And when they do get plats, they aren't thinking about potions. They want better armor. So now you're talking about a complete change of the begining game dynamic. Im pretty sure that eliminating the whole snowy/sunny side of Korthos would help. It allows for all of the lowbies to party together.

So there's a real start for ya.

AtomicMew
06-04-2012, 02:29 PM
Y'all have been here too long. The very first *quest* a new guy does it with Jeets. There are a bunch of boxes to break and the drops are either copper or cure light pots. They know that it's there.

I think you're looking at it from the entirely wrong angle. Maybe a smartazz cleric hireling that say, *Why dont you heal yourself once in a while? You have potions.*

And there is potions available at the vendor in Korthos. What you are talking about is changing people's ideals about the role of a healer. And for at least half of the population, that's not gonna happen. So deal with it. You want to encourage potion use, make them less expensive. With the amount of time it takes to use a potion, it will never be a game breaker but at least you're on the right path.

Further, lowbies dont have a stash of cash. And when they do get plats, they aren't thinking about potions. They want better armor. So now you're talking about a complete change of the begining game dynamic. Im pretty sure that eliminating the whole snowy/sunny side of Korthos would help. It allows for all of the lowbies to party together.

So there's a real start for ya.

It's not about changing people's ideals, its about raising the level of play. Cleric's job is not to babysit new (and some not new) players. Every toon should be self sufficient, and if you're not, stay away from my group. It's not about the cash, because every noob that joins my group gets offered enough plat to buy a stack of cure serious potions. Not having at least heal pots is just lazy.

Tshober
06-04-2012, 03:58 PM
Every toon should be self sufficient, and if you're not, stay away from my group.

I don't think you need to worry, just keep putting BYOH in your LFM's and it won't be a problem for you.

SiliconScout
06-04-2012, 05:00 PM
/signed.

I had a very MMO experienced buddy try DDO (he's a Guild Wars Vet) and he evern went so far as to drop $60 in points to get the War Forged and Arty.

His experience as a new player.

1. Very hard to understand the pro's and con's of toon building
2. Very VERY hard to find groups. Especially groups who had someone in there that knew what they were doing or where to go (IE someone with experience).
3. Almost impossible to find a guild that was in any way helpful to the new toon.

The result, he tried for just about 3 weeks but walked away from it. With plenty of TP unspent and he's not likely to return.

I would say he's exactly the kind of player we want to keep if at all possible and anything that helps them navigate the game and it's nuances the better. Especially considering that BB and Dungeon Scaling have virtually wiped out the market of experienced guys teaching newbs the ropes.

This can't hurt in any way, it can only help so go for it I say.

Ungood
06-05-2012, 12:05 PM
Y'all have been here too long.

This sums up my feelings on pretty much everyone on the forums who spouts this stuff. :rolleyes:

Cauthey
06-05-2012, 12:10 PM
/signed.

This is a terrific idea!! Though, perhaps make it a quest chain that includes buying other items. Like spell components, for example.

Heck, you could even make one quest a sort of wild goose chase that helps new players make use of the map interface.

My apologies if I have duplicated other suggestions, I have not thoroughly read the post.