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Lurzifer
05-29-2012, 11:25 AM
Heya,

as you all might know Monks are currently far ahead from every CC Melee Class.

A DC specced Kensai has Imp Trip, Imp Sunder and that wonderful Stunning Blow every 15 seconds.

Monks on the other hand can have em all + Stunning Fist, ultra High DC perma stun with little Range - awesome feat.

Now my Idea regarding this unfairness :)

Stunning Blow is now granted basic feat like Sunder or Trip to all Classes reaching BAB +1, but a new feat is introduced: Improved Stunning Blow (Reducing the CD of Blow to 6 seconds)

Monks may either choose Fist or improved Blow but not both (making either req. for shintao)

No changes for monks, still have blow and fist like old times but save a feat.
All other melees still spend a feat for improved or not for that basic blow with 15 secs CD.

Let me know what u guys think about it.

Cheers
Haek

HatsuharuZ
05-29-2012, 12:49 PM
While it would be nice to be able to decrease the cooldowns of tactical feats, I wonder if it's really necessary, or if making a feat for it is the best way to go.

On the other hand, it would be nice if the "stunning" DC enhancements that fighters and half-elf figher dillies get could be unlocked by the character having the Stunning Fist feat.

Jaid314
05-29-2012, 01:24 PM
stunning fist costs ki. stunning blow does not.

i'm in favor of lowering the cooldown of stunning blow to be *closer* to what stunning fist is at. i'm *not* in favor of making it equal. say, 8-10 seconds i think would be fine for stunning blow.

Chai
05-29-2012, 01:40 PM
Monks have to choose between being an enabler (shintao, light) or being higher DPS (ninja, dark).

Shintao ends up further back in DPS, but is more of an enabler, increasing the groups potential rather than focusing exclusively on their own output.

A fighter on the other hand, is high single target burst DPS, who can (should) spec into some tactics.

I dont find the comparison to be unfair at all.

Ravoc-DDO
05-29-2012, 02:44 PM
Most definately signed. Having monks in your party, you usually end up wasting most of your stunning blows. If you're tactics oriented, you should be able to be competitive at it.


stunning fist costs ki. stunning blow does not.

i'm in favor of lowering the cooldown of stunning blow to be *closer* to what stunning fist is at. i'm *not* in favor of making it equal. say, 8-10 seconds i think would be fine for stunning blow.
Assuming just spare hand, monks can get Stunning Fist DCs of 35+ with only 30 WIS. To get that DC on Stunning Blow, you'll need at least 50 STR. I would say the abnormal ease in obtaining high DCs more than compensates the little bit of ki it costs, which is a highly renewable source anyway.

Jaid314
05-29-2012, 02:50 PM
the monk is choosing to not use their ki on something else (regardless of whether they're light or dark; frankly, *both* should be taking stunning fist, and both should be using their ki on various other things, ideall), and the ability is based on a non-DPS stat as well, come to think of it.

the fighter is spending a feat, of which they have a huge number, and does not expend any further resources.

the monk pays more, and therefore gets more. i'm fine with the fighter getting more than they currently do, because currently stunning fist has a rather long cooldown that makes it hard to rely on terribly often, but making it the same as the monk cooldown when the monk has a higher cost to get and use the monk-specific stunning, i don't agree with.

higher cost (monk) gets higher benefit (shorter cooldown). this is as it should be. the amount by which stunning fist is superior, i am fine with seeing changed. but they should not be made equal. the choice between an ability based on a DPS stat and which costs no ki vs an ability which does the same thing but costs ki and requires a non-DPS stat is not remotely a difficult one.

Lurzifer
05-29-2012, 04:29 PM
I am not talking about maing them equal, Monks will still have fist and blow with 1 feat less to spend, fighters can only have one of the two.

So why has someone fist with 6 secs and blow with 15 secs and the real tacticians only the 15 sec version?
Makes no sense.

Monks are Melee CC #1 for a long time, why? They already outdps others in endcontent ( and yes any wraps user is a Monk since the changes to Fist).

Good night, you Kensai Haters!

Zeruell
05-29-2012, 05:02 PM
I am not talking about maing them equal, Monks will still have fist and blow with 1 feat less to spend, fighters can only have one of the two.

So why has someone fist with 6 secs and blow with 15 secs and the real tacticians only the 15 sec version?
Makes no sense.
Jaid gave you a pretty sensible explanation.


Good night, you Kensai Haters!
This part is funny.

Kinerd
05-29-2012, 06:14 PM
A few things:

The best build for these maneuvers is an 18/2 kensei monk splash. Between Kensei, a couple tactics enhancements, and Power Surge, monks are at least 9 DC behind a kensei in Stunning Blow. With Stunning Fist based off character level, the 18/2 is ahead of the monk with Fist as well.

I think you overestimate how many feats a monk gets. To fit in all the feats you describe, they would need:
Power Attack
Improved Sunder
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Stunning Fist
Stunning Blow
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
And choose one from Toughness, Improved Critical, and a Prestige Enhancement, not to mention that you've added 13 base Int to a class that is already MAD, and not to mention that they would be absolutely dreadful at Trip.

In short, I think this is just a grass is greener situation.

sweez
05-29-2012, 06:37 PM
Heya,

as you all might know Monks are currently far ahead from every CC Melee Class.

A DC specced Kensai has Imp Trip, Imp Sunder and that wonderful Stunning Blow every 15 seconds.

Monks on the other hand can have em all + Stunning Fist, ultra High DC perma stun with little Range - awesome feat.

So can an unarmed Kensai, and he will outperform (looking at it from both a DC and an ease of feat acquisition perspective) a pure monk by a distance :)

Edit: + what Kinerd wrote

Silverwren
05-30-2012, 12:37 PM
stunning fist costs ki. stunning blow does not.

This.

They're not equal, nor should they be. Leave it alone.



Monks are Melee CC #1 for a long time, why?

Simple answer:

We paid for it. Real $$$.

I paid actual money to access the monk class and I like it just the way it is. Don't mess with it. :mad:

Jay203
05-30-2012, 01:41 PM
This.

They're not equal, nor should they be. Leave it alone.




Simple answer:

We paid for it. Real $$$.

I paid actual money to access the monk class and I like it just the way it is. Don't mess with it. :mad:

not everyone paid for it with $$
some just grind the TP for it, this is a free game after all :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Mastikator
05-30-2012, 03:42 PM
I sort of recently TRed my fighter kensai into a monk. The stunning fist DC is lower than what the stunning blow DC used to be even though I am currently using wraps that give +6 stun DC (and I used nothing for the fighter).
It is a LOT easier to get high str than wis the monk is not overpowered in terms of DC, the monk has a shorter cooldown and thus can keep enemies stunned for longer but it's not as over powered as it sounds.
Plus I do less damage.
(the monk is certainly more fun imo, but not a lot *better*)