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wax_on_wax_off
05-27-2012, 09:59 PM
So I was reading this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=375073) thread and it captured my imagination somewhat. I didn't want to hijack the thread so I'm posting my own suggestion.

Points:

This is a new fighting style for single weapon users, sword and buckler users and TWF'ing users who want a defensive option
I heard a rumour that some aspects of this suggestion will be more relevant in U14
This fighting line will only be 2 feats to make it more accessible to other builds (like bards)


Without further ado:

Parry
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus of +1 or higher, others TBD (perhaps Dexterity 13+)
Description

Reduces the penalty for defensive fighting and combat expertise modes by 2
While using defensive fighting or combat expertise you have a 20%+best of 0.5*strength or dexterity or 2*int mod to parry (dodge) an attack that originates in front of you from an enemy that you have hard targeted once every 2.5 seconds (only successful parries start the cooldown)
This feat only functions while fighting with a light offhand weapon, buckler or single weapon
TWF'ing offhand procs are reduced to 1/2 while using this feat


Riposte
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Parry, Base attack bonus of +6 or higher, others TBD (perhaps Intelligence 13+)
Description

Reduces the penalty for defensive fighting and combat expertise modes by a further 1
The chance to parry increases by 20% and the cooldown reduces to 1.5 seconds
While using defensive fighting or combat expertise you have a 20%+dexterity or 2*int mod chance to riposte an attack against you from an enemy that you have hard targeted gaining a free attack.
This feat only functions while fighting with a light offhand weapon, buckler or single weapon. If TWF'ing the riposte originates from your offhand weapon


So that's the core of it. 1 feat to parry some attacks against you as if you were dueling, a second to make some counter attacks. Suggestions on the mechanics involved welcome. I like the idea of a cooldown on the parry to create a playstyle of back and forth which seems realistic (back off while parry is on cooldown, engage until it goes off again).

Other changes could be made to interact with these feats:

Fighter enhancements to reduce cooldown, increase parry and riposte chance etc.
Duelist PrE
Epic feat/enhancement allowing the combination of 2 stats rather than the best of 3


Even though it's only 2 feats many other feats already interact nicely with them (for builds with more feats to burn). TWF'ing remains an effective option and shield mastery/bash feats work nicely as well.

It might be necessary to make Parry a stance to give the option for TWF'ing builds to use defensive fighting/combat expertise without losing their offhand procs.

So, discuss or /sign away :)

Edit: added hard target clause as per Kinerd's suggestion

t0r012
05-27-2012, 10:27 PM
So the rich get richer?
i.e. twf the best damage melee option now also gets a defense option/bonus that is unavailable to THF and unarmed?

I like the idea but limiting to single weapon only or small/buckler and weapon , preferably light/finessable only would be my input.
Perhaps I could even see if both hands were light and or finessable like dagger/dagger , rapier/dagger, etc would be acceptable from a balance/flavor perspective.

wax_on_wax_off
05-27-2012, 11:04 PM
So the rich get richer?
i.e. twf the best damage melee option now also gets a defense option/bonus that is unavailable to THF and unarmed?

I like the idea but limiting to single weapon only or small/buckler and weapon , preferably light/finessable only would be my input.
Perhaps I could even see if both hands were light and or finessable like dagger/dagger , rapier/dagger, etc would be acceptable from a balance/flavor perspective.

Thanks for your input and it's a valid point. To clarify, unarmed would qualify to use this feat and THF'ing style builds could take advantage of it if they wanted (bastard sword or dwarven axe with a buckler or empty offhand).

Your second suggestion to limit it to light/finessable weapons really screws over the THF'ing style builds that you mention in your first point :) Bastard Sword with buckler, this feat line, improved shield bash, improved shield mastery etc would be quite effective (riposte attacks could be split between extra shield bashes and weapon swings by some mechanic perhaps).

The offhand proc penalty could be reduced to 1/3 or 1/4 (and possibly improved with feint, a third feat, enhancements or PrE's for instance) to balance it.

Kinerd
05-29-2012, 05:27 PM
I think that it would work (conceptually) a lot better if you declared a target you were riposting against. As it is, it seems like you would multiply your ripostes when beset by many attackers, which is counter-thematic. Perhaps it only works against an enemy you have hard-targeted? Similar applies to Parry if the cooldown gets too small.

I also think your idea of making Parry an independent stance (i.e. one that does not preclude CE/DF) is the way to go. There are times I want to hunker down, but if it means locking myself into inferior DPS forever I'd just stick with blocking.

Vellrad
05-29-2012, 05:36 PM
I got an idea to un-nerf 1 handed weapon users and dex buidls:

Improved weapon finesse:
Requires some dex and weapon finesse feat
Replaces your str mod with dex mod to melee weapon damage when you wield one finnesable weapon and nothing or buckler in off hand.

Greater weapon finesse:
Requires weapon finesse feat, improved weapon finesse feats and high dex scores
You add both dex and str to melee weapon damage when you wield one finnesable weapon and nothing or buckler in off hand.


Of course, DPS wouldn't be like that of TWFers or THFers, but still, that wouldn't be a tragedy ;)

wax_on_wax_off
05-29-2012, 07:13 PM
I think that it would work (conceptually) a lot better if you declared a target you were riposting against. As it is, it seems like you would multiply your ripostes when beset by many attackers, which is counter-thematic. Perhaps it only works against an enemy you have hard-targeted? Similar applies to Parry if the cooldown gets too small.

Great idea about hard targeting, is there any similar mechanic currently in the game?


I also think your idea of making Parry an independent stance (i.e. one that does not preclude CE/DF) is the way to go. There are times I want to hunker down, but if it means locking myself into inferior DPS forever I'd just stick with blocking.

If you want to hunker down then going into parry mode sounds ideal? Not sure you'd ever want one without the other (or if it would be possible).



I got an idea to un-nerf 1 handed weapon users and dex buidls:

Improved weapon finesse:
Requires some dex and weapon finesse feat
Replaces your str mod with dex mod to melee weapon damage when you wield one finnesable weapon and nothing or buckler in off hand.

Greater weapon finesse:
Requires weapon finesse feat, improved weapon finesse feats and high dex scores
You add both dex and str to melee weapon damage when you wield one finnesable weapon and nothing or buckler in off hand.


Of course, DPS wouldn't be like that of TWFers or THFers, but still, that wouldn't be a tragedy ;)

I'm guessing you aren't in the MotU Beta ;)

In general though I don't like this idea as its straight DPS and I think we can be more imaginative than that; I'm hoping with my suggestion to create a game play feel that people appreciate.

FranOhmsford
05-29-2012, 07:36 PM
So I was reading this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=375073) thread and it captured my imagination somewhat. I didn't want to hijack the thread so I'm posting my own suggestion.

Points:

This is a new fighting style for single weapon users, sword and buckler users and TWF'ing users who want a defensive option
I heard a rumour that some aspects of this suggestion will be more relevant in U14
This fighting line will only be 2 feats to make it more accessible to other builds (like bards)


Without further ado:

Parry
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus of +1 or higher, others TBD (perhaps Dexterity 13+)
Description

Reduces the penalty for defensive fighting and combat expertise modes by 2
While using defensive fighting or combat expertise you have a 20%+best of 0.5*strength or dexterity or 2*int mod to parry (dodge) an attack that originates in front of you once every 2.5 seconds (only successful parries start the cooldown)
This feat only functions while fighting with a light offhand weapon, buckler or single weapon
TWF'ing offhand procs are reduced to 1/2 while using this feat


Riposte
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Parry, Base attack bonus of +6 or higher, others TBD (perhaps Intelligence 13+)
Description

Reduces the penalty for defensive fighting and combat expertise modes by a further 1
The chance to parry increases by 20% and the cooldown reduces to 1.5 seconds
While using defensive fighting or combat expertise you have a 20%+dexterity or 2*int mod chance to riposte an attack against you gaining a free attack.
This feat only functions while fighting with a light offhand weapon, buckler or single weapon. If TWF'ing the riposte originates from your offhand weapon


So that's the core of it. 1 feat to parry some attacks against you as if you were dueling, a second to make some counter attacks. Suggestions on the mechanics involved welcome. I like the idea of a cooldown on the parry to create a playstyle of back and forth which seems realistic (back off while parry is on cooldown, engage until it goes off again).

Other changes could be made to interact with these feats:

Fighter enhancements to reduce cooldown, increase parry and riposte chance etc.
Duelist PrE
Epic feat/enhancement allowing the combination of 2 stats rather than the best of 3


Even though it's only 2 feats many other feats already interact nicely with them (for builds with more feats to burn). TWF'ing remains an effective option and shield mastery/bash feats work nicely as well.

It might be necessary to make Parry a stance to give the option for TWF'ing builds to use defensive fighting/combat expertise without losing their offhand procs.

So, discuss or /sign away :)

Firstly thank you for coming up with this - You did a far better job than I managed.

Unfortunately I'm having trouble understanding it myself - Math has never been my strong point.

The Parry and Riposte idea sounds great though - A definite boost to defensive minded Two Weapon Fighters + the Riposte is what I was thinking of with my 4th attack in the chain instakill idea.

1. Would this stack with Riposte item effects {Swashbuckler for example}?

2. How close does this come to 2WF as is? Is it vastly inferior? Will it replace 2WF as is as the best option?
What I'm looking for is more choices - As opposed to replacing one with another.
They should be as even as possible.

3. Would it be viable for a caster {of any type}? Please allow Sceptres in the off hand {Not clubs - too unwieldy}.

4. How does this affect 2 Weapon Defense and 2 Weapon Blocking feats?

Ralmeth
05-29-2012, 08:11 PM
Awesome concept! I'm a fencer in RL, and would really love for something like this to eventually make it into the game. However, a few details first:

Fighting Style
I think this style should be limited to one handed fighting, or one handed and a buckler. I do not think you should allow TWF because it will really get muddy between normal TWF and this style. If one handed fighting, additional bonuses need to be added to provide a benefit over sword and buckler. Otherwise this style would become sword and buckler only. For example, you could increase your chance to hit if using a single weapon.

Parry
-There shouldn't be a limit to how often you can parry. I can parry in RL MUCH faster than once every 2.5 seconds.
-Parrying should probably be a simple increase to AC or better yet a seperate roll (like blur) before damage is dealt. Your % chance to parry should be based on your dexterity (not strength, because it is speed of hand that matters) as well as your BAB. I'll leave the actual formula to the developers to find the right balance, but a simple formula would be
Parry % = K1 * Dex modifer as a % + K2 * BAB as a %, where K1 & K2 are factors that the developers can tweak. If K1 and K2 are equal to 1, then as an example a dex modifier of say 14 + 20 BAB would equal to a 34% parry chance.
-Parrying should only work against opponents that are wielding weapons that can be parried. For example, you would not parry a devil swipping at you with his claws, but see my 'jump back' feat idea below.

Riposte
-Your idea is in the right place, but your mechanics don't make sense, not at all...
1) Change the min level requirement to BAB 1. In RL as a fencer you can start to riposte with just a little practice.
2) I'm not sure how the ability to make an immediate counterattack (i.e. riposte) on an opponent should increase your defense. So you should get rid of the bonus to defensive fighting, combat expertise and parrying.
3) You shouldn't have to be in defensive fighting or combat expertise stance to riposte. Riposting is kind of a natural thing to do in a sword fight.
-Riposte should work by givine you a % chance to automatically counterattack an opponent you have targeted after they make an attack upon you.
-The % chance should be based on strength and/or dex and your BAB with a formula similar to the one I posted in the parry section. If successful, you get an automatic counterattack. However, the game engine may not like this mechanic without some work, so a doublestrike bonus might be the way to go based on strength, dex and BAB.

Jump Back
A third skill that a fencer has is to make an opponent's attack land just short. One easy way to do this is to jump backwards, which doesn't involve some high flying leap backwards. Instead it is a controlled jump back a short distance that keeps your body at the same height. I say a short distance because you don't want to jump too far so that you are out of range of your opponent when you want to attack. The trick is to make the opponent miss just barely so you are still in range. So this could be the 3rd feat in the chain with a BAB requirement of 1 as well. This feat would allow you a % chance to avoid an opponents attack altogether and again could have a formula similar to the one I posted in the parry section. This feat would probably be used even more than parry because you would use it against any opponent that you have targeted, and could work on any type of attack such as a devil swipping their claws at you.

Completing the style
-Most importantly, new combat animations would be needed so that you actually fight like you're fencing
-A Swashbuckler PRE would need to be added
-Lastly, swashbuckler outfits would be a must

wax_on_wax_off
05-30-2012, 12:52 AM
Firstly thank you for coming up with this - You did a far better job than I managed.

Unfortunately I'm having trouble understanding it myself - Math has never been my strong point.

The Parry and Riposte idea sounds great though - A definite boost to defensive minded Two Weapon Fighters + the Riposte is what I was thinking of with my 4th attack in the chain instakill idea.

1. Would this stack with Riposte item effects {Swashbuckler for example}?

Absolutely.

2. How close does this come to 2WF as is? Is it vastly inferior? Will it replace 2WF as is as the best option?
What I'm looking for is more choices - As opposed to replacing one with another.
They should be as even as possible.

Hopefully no where near, defensive benefits should be at least half of the equation (so you should hope for something between 1/2 and 2/3 the offhand attacks).

3. Would it be viable for a caster {of any type}? Please allow Sceptres in the off hand {Not clubs - too unwieldy}.

Only light weapons in the offhand (not sure if they count as light weapons). Plenty of light caster items around though like Skiver or Ornamental Dagger.

4. How does this affect 2 Weapon Defense and 2 Weapon Blocking feats?

No idea, didn't get that far, suggestions welcome.

Responses in red.



Awesome concept! I'm a fencer in RL, and would really love for something like this to eventually make it into the game. However, a few details first:

Fighting Style
I think this style should be limited to one handed fighting, or one handed and a buckler. I do not think you should allow TWF because it will really get muddy between normal TWF and this style. If one handed fighting, additional bonuses need to be added to provide a benefit over sword and buckler. Otherwise this style would become sword and buckler only. For example, you could increase your chance to hit if using a single weapon.

Part of the concept to give single weapon fighting an edge is to make riposte attacks split between mainhand and offhand if you have something in the offhand which is a DPS loss if you have a buckler (as bucklers tend not to do a lot of damage). Proficiency is also required. Beyond that, I'm not sure that more is needed (holding a buckler should be better for defense).

For TWF'ing I think that it's important that there is some synergy between the styles. Realistically from what I know it makes sense, often TWF'ing style is as much parry/counter attack as what fencing is (using 1 weapon to parry and the other to counterattack). Many characters that took this feat line wouldn't be able to fit the TWF'ing feats as well which is balance enough I think.


Parry
-There shouldn't be a limit to how often you can parry. I can parry in RL MUCH faster than once every 2.5 seconds.
-Parrying should probably be a simple increase to AC or better yet a seperate roll (like blur) before damage is dealt. Your % chance to parry should be based on your dexterity (not strength, because it is speed of hand that matters) as well as your BAB. I'll leave the actual formula to the developers to find the right balance, but a simple formula would be
Parry % = K1 * Dex modifer as a % + K2 * BAB as a %, where K1 & K2 are factors that the developers can tweak. If K1 and K2 are equal to 1, then as an example a dex modifier of say 14 + 20 BAB would equal to a 34% parry chance.
-Parrying should only work against opponents that are wielding weapons that can be parried. For example, you would not parry a devil swipping at you with his claws, but see my 'jump back' feat idea below.

Without a cooldown of some sort on the ability to parry then there is no incentive to engage/disengage from combat continuously which seems to fit thematically, rather you just do what you always do ... (which is something that I'm trying to get away from).

Allowing multiple stats to influence the parry chance was to give different builds an opportunity to use this feat line (a bard or other caster for instance might not have the ability points to invest in dexterity or intelligence but still want to use this feat line, even though strength gives less benefit it still gives some (only 1/4 of what the same investment into intelligence gives)).

I don't think it would be possible to differentiate between natural and held weapons and I don't think it's necessary too.


Riposte
-Your idea is in the right place, but your mechanics don't make sense, not at all...
1) Change the min level requirement to BAB 1. In RL as a fencer you can start to riposte with just a little practice.
2) I'm not sure how the ability to make an immediate counterattack (i.e. riposte) on an opponent should increase your defense. So you should get rid of the bonus to defensive fighting, combat expertise and parrying.
3) You shouldn't have to be in defensive fighting or combat expertise stance to riposte. Riposting is kind of a natural thing to do in a sword fight.
-Riposte should work by givine you a % chance to automatically counterattack an opponent you have targeted after they make an attack upon you.
-The % chance should be based on strength and/or dex and your BAB with a formula similar to the one I posted in the parry section. If successful, you get an automatic counterattack. However, the game engine may not like this mechanic without some work, so a doublestrike bonus might be the way to go based on strength, dex and BAB.

It's important to have some progression with feats, it's just a basic MMO/game mechanic :)
Can consider it a combined Riposte/Improved Parry feat. Part of the idea is to wrap the concept up into only 2 feats to make it more accessible to feat starved builds.
If you liked you could include a small % chance to riposte on the first feat (say ~5%) and reconcile it that way.


Jump Back
A third skill that a fencer has is to make an opponent's attack land just short. One easy way to do this is to jump backwards, which doesn't involve some high flying leap backwards. Instead it is a controlled jump back a short distance that keeps your body at the same height. I say a short distance because you don't want to jump too far so that you are out of range of your opponent when you want to attack. The trick is to make the opponent miss just barely so you are still in range. So this could be the 3rd feat in the chain with a BAB requirement of 1 as well. This feat would allow you a % chance to avoid an opponents attack altogether and again could have a formula similar to the one I posted in the parry section. This feat would probably be used even more than parry because you would use it against any opponent that you have targeted, and could work on any type of attack such as a devil swipping their claws at you.

This is a third feat, I think we should stay away from that to keep the feat line accessible to the many feat starved builds that the feat line might be attractive to.


Completing the style
-Most importantly, new combat animations would be needed so that you actually fight like you're fencing
-A Swashbuckler PRE would need to be added
-Lastly, swashbuckler outfits would be a must

Sure thing :P

fco-karatekid
05-30-2012, 01:11 AM
This is a great thread of ideas... most especially because it is addressing several crying shames in this game:

S&B style is impractical given the alternatives available; Dex is nearly worthless in this game where fighting is concerned (I happen to LIKE the idea of finesse, dex-heavy builds hitting in JUST the right spot to really hurt), and single weapon fighting is non-existent.

If the kinks could get worked out of these suggestions, it'd give us more options than "TWF or THF"; which have become the only reasonable options, given the ugly-bags-of-mostly-hitpoints the mobs have become.

Kinerd
06-01-2012, 05:08 PM
Great idea about hard targeting, is there any similar mechanic currently in the game?The only one I can think of is enemy sneak attack, you can't be sneak attacked if you have the enemy hard targeted. Oh and the always hilarious "you are not facing" whatever messaging.
If you want to hunker down then going into parry mode sounds ideal? Not sure you'd ever want one without the other (or if it would be possible).I meant contrasting against a permanent Parry, permanently losing offhand procs or whatever. That would be bad, your stance (longer than instant, less than permanent) idea would be good.
For example, you would not parry a devil swipping at you with his claws, but see my 'jump back' feat idea below.I would, because I am a level 20 fighter IRL. The trouble is the IRL devil is kind of a sissy, so I don't take much pleasure in it.

Xynot2
06-03-2012, 01:26 PM
I like it. Anything to give melees some love

/signed

InsanityIsYourFriend
06-04-2012, 11:54 AM
Awesome concept! I'm a fencer in RL, and would really love for something like this to eventually make it into the game. However, a few details first:

Fighting Style
I think this style should be limited to one handed fighting, or one handed and a buckler. I do not think you should allow TWF because it will really get muddy between normal TWF and this style. If one handed fighting, additional bonuses need to be added to provide a benefit over sword and buckler. Otherwise this style would become sword and buckler only. For example, you could increase your chance to hit if using a single weapon.

Parry
-There shouldn't be a limit to how often you can parry. I can parry in RL MUCH faster than once every 2.5 seconds.
-Parrying should probably be a simple increase to AC or better yet a seperate roll (like blur) before damage is dealt. Your % chance to parry should be based on your dexterity (not strength, because it is speed of hand that matters) as well as your BAB. I'll leave the actual formula to the developers to find the right balance, but a simple formula would be
Parry % = K1 * Dex modifer as a % + K2 * BAB as a %, where K1 & K2 are factors that the developers can tweak. If K1 and K2 are equal to 1, then as an example a dex modifier of say 14 + 20 BAB would equal to a 34% parry chance.
-Parrying should only work against opponents that are wielding weapons that can be parried. For example, you would not parry a devil swipping at you with his claws, but see my 'jump back' feat idea below.

Riposte
-Your idea is in the right place, but your mechanics don't make sense, not at all...
1) Change the min level requirement to BAB 1. In RL as a fencer you can start to riposte with just a little practice.
2) I'm not sure how the ability to make an immediate counterattack (i.e. riposte) on an opponent should increase your defense. So you should get rid of the bonus to defensive fighting, combat expertise and parrying.
3) You shouldn't have to be in defensive fighting or combat expertise stance to riposte. Riposting is kind of a natural thing to do in a sword fight.
-Riposte should work by givine you a % chance to automatically counterattack an opponent you have targeted after they make an attack upon you.
-The % chance should be based on strength and/or dex and your BAB with a formula similar to the one I posted in the parry section. If successful, you get an automatic counterattack. However, the game engine may not like this mechanic without some work, so a doublestrike bonus might be the way to go based on strength, dex and BAB.

Jump Back
A third skill that a fencer has is to make an opponent's attack land just short. One easy way to do this is to jump backwards, which doesn't involve some high flying leap backwards. Instead it is a controlled jump back a short distance that keeps your body at the same height. I say a short distance because you don't want to jump too far so that you are out of range of your opponent when you want to attack. The trick is to make the opponent miss just barely so you are still in range. So this could be the 3rd feat in the chain with a BAB requirement of 1 as well. This feat would allow you a % chance to avoid an opponents attack altogether and again could have a formula similar to the one I posted in the parry section. This feat would probably be used even more than parry because you would use it against any opponent that you have targeted, and could work on any type of attack such as a devil swipping their claws at you.

Completing the style
-Most importantly, new combat animations would be needed so that you actually fight like you're fencing
-A Swashbuckler PRE would need to be added
-Lastly, swashbuckler outfits would be a must

I REALLY like this idea i think this would be able to make certain builds better tanks than the sword n boards we have now, not to mention an excellent flavor option!