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View Full Version : Make Cleave a metamagic feat



HatsuharuZ
05-21-2012, 08:54 AM
but instead of Cleave affecting spells, let it affect combat feats/enhancements.

Wouldn't you love to trip up multiple enemies at once? :D

Sidewaysgts86
05-22-2012, 04:53 AM
/not signed.

Now if you want to propose some changes to whirlwind attack..

HatsuharuZ
05-22-2012, 08:07 AM
/not signed.

Now if you want to propose some changes to whirlwind attack..

Cleave has only one feat, Power Attack, as a prerequisite. That makes it alot more practical than Whirlwind Attack, imo. What's wrong with being able to affect multiple enemies at once with combat feats?

Urist
05-22-2012, 08:34 AM
Cleave has only one feat, Power Attack, as a prerequisite. That makes it alot more practical than Whirlwind Attack, imo. What's wrong with being able to affect multiple enemies at once with combat feats?
I think his point, which you echoed in your response, was that cleave is already fairly useful, and it would be better if something currently more or less completely useless (whirlwind attack) could be replaced with a feat like something like you suggest.

I do think it would be nifty to be able to do a sunder-cleave, trip-cleave, etc., but there's no reason to replace the existing cleave feat, as your original suggestion implied.

HatsuharuZ
05-22-2012, 09:25 AM
I think his point, which you echoed in your response, was that cleave is already fairly useful, and it would be better if something currently more or less completely useless (whirlwind attack) could be replaced with a feat like something like you suggest.

I do think it would be nifty to be able to do a sunder-cleave, trip-cleave, etc., but there's no reason to replace the existing cleave feat, as your original suggestion implied.

Actually, it would be able to do the same thing as it does now, in addition to what I suggested. There is an "attack" feat, right?

Sidewaysgts86
05-23-2012, 06:43 AM
Cleave has only one feat, Power Attack, as a prerequisite. That makes it alot more practical than Whirlwind Attack, imo. What's wrong with being able to affect multiple enemies at once with combat feats?

Apologies- You mightve misread/misinterpreted my post. It (cleave) is indeed a lot more "practical" than WW attack, and in some ways, is better. WW attack is a ridiculously "expensive" feat to get, and is, for the cost, pretty much entirely worthless. Power attack is to me, in all honesty, a very fine feat as it sits for the cost it takes to get it. This is why I was saying we should consider something like this ww-attack "instead" of cleave in your proposal.

Cleave actually does some things WW attack doesnt, like the inclusion of glancing blows on everything in reach (from my testing itll actually do glancing blows on a full 360 arc around you, but will only give a full hit on things within that relatively wide arc in front ). Also of note about whirlwind attack, unlike cleave/great cleave- it has a double spin animation (Versus the spin of cleave/great cleave). So not only does it miss out on the glancing blows that cleave/great cleave get (thus making it do less damage compared to great cleave for less feats), it also reduces how many attacks you put out. Spam cleave and count how many swings you get in during its cool down, then spam whirlwind and count the attacks. Youll be 1-2 hits down each time. This is made even *worse* due to how whirlwind attack actually interrupts your attack chain, where cleave/great cleave seem to just get slotted in without effecting your chain much if at all.

At least they copied ONE good thing from cleave/great cleave and gave it the hidden bonus of hitting with whatever your highest attack bonus from your attack chain is.

So again- this is simply why i said "instead" of cleave. Cleave is fine as is. WW attack sucks and costs way too much. Id like to see it be made a stance of sorts. Heck id be happy if it just gave you a double-hit like that animation makes it look like it should. Anything would be better than what it is now. Theres a reason no one takes it for anything other than "flavor".

Xynot2
05-23-2012, 08:50 AM
Superior cleave FTW- just gotta know how to get it.

Antheal
05-23-2012, 09:07 AM
but instead of Cleave affecting spells, let it affect combat feats/enhancements.


So... would that make it a metaphysical feat?

Kalevor
05-23-2012, 09:13 AM
/not signed.

Now if you want to propose some changes to whirlwind attack..

/signed . It makes sense to me, whirlwind attack is not whorthwhile right now.

Habreno
05-23-2012, 09:29 AM
So... would that make it a metaphysical feat?


MTE. /Signed to this general idea.

Zachski
05-23-2012, 01:03 PM
Considering that melees do need some love...

Random idea:

For attack skills like Cleave, Great Cleave, and Whirlwind Attack, instead of just having a single action occur, perhaps have it occur multiple times based on your BAB and attack speed bonuses?

Like, say, a level 15 Fighter has Haste Boost active and activates Cleave. He then makes, oh... 7 attacks that have the Cleave effect?

However, Whirlwind Attack has a greater attacks-to-speed ratio. Like, instead of 7 attacks, he makes TEN. In the same amount of time.

Obviously, not those exact numbers.

The idea being to up the capacity for melees to kill groups of enemies without having to rely on glancing blows and single attacks from Cleave/Great Cleave when off cooldown.

Because to be honest, it's kinda silly to have to rely on Arcane Archers and Spellcasters to damage groups of enemies...

teh_meh
05-23-2012, 02:30 PM
oh man, being able to trip or stunning blow mobs in an arch around you would be suh-weeeet! That would definitely get me playing my melees again.

love the idea OP, even if the crinkles need to be worked out a bit on the how-to's and what-not's

HatsuharuZ
05-23-2012, 04:21 PM
oh man, being able to trip or stunning blow mobs in an arch around you would be suh-weeeet! That would definitely get me playing my melees again.

love the idea OP, even if the crinkles need to be worked out a bit on the how-to's and what-not's

Yeah, what I've noticed in the Suggestions forum is that people always add suggestions of their own, which can sometimes be alot more interesting than what the OP wrote up. Just look up at what Zachski wrote. That's an awesome idea in itself.