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View Full Version : A suggestion for changes in the loot system



callforkills
05-19-2012, 07:39 AM
The idea:

Named items obatained from end chests should not be lootable like the regular items. The idea is that you all roll for the named item instead of making it a part of the regular loot. Those taht dont need dont have to roll.

That way no player can be greedy and just take the item and no guildies can swap the item in the chest. The downside is that it'll be a step towards World of Warcraft.

Uska
05-19-2012, 07:43 AM
NO a roll has already been made when it shows up everyone has a percentage chance to get something from the end chest there is no need and no desire to add another roll

Aurora1979
05-19-2012, 07:44 AM
Whats the point?

The roll is made when you open the chest. An individual role... in theory it is possible for a 12 arcane run on DQ to pull 12 torcs....... in theory! :)

But, why roll manually for them?

If the person needs/ wants the item, and it drops in their name then they can loot it, NP. Even if I need it "more" its his item, it dropped on his loot roll within the chest.... I think your idea would cause more trouble then it solves tbh.

callforkills
05-19-2012, 08:22 AM
exactly! The people who actually dont need the item and wouldn't roll on it can then just loot the item or pass it to a guildie.

biggin2
05-19-2012, 08:33 AM
How about we take it one step further. Every time a chest is opened you are instantly transported to a PvP arena and it's a last person standing fight for all the phat lewtz.

KillEveryone
05-19-2012, 08:34 AM
exactly! The people who actually dont need the item and wouldn't roll on it can then just loot the item or pass it to a guildie.

Yes they would.

They are called proxy rolls.

Cyiwin
05-19-2012, 08:48 AM
I would like this for BTC items only and they must show up in a common area and not associated with a member of the party. Then everyone who is interested can check a box next to the item and has an equal chance at getting it. The item becomes bound to the winner to weed out proxy rollers. No more internal guild passing sounds like a good idea to me.

Sidewaysgts86
05-20-2012, 02:37 AM
The idea...That way no player can be greedy and just take the item and no guildies can swap the item in the chest. The downside is that it'll be a step towards World of Warcraft.

Apologies, but I don't share your view point here. Every one has the same chances as everyone else at getting particular named loot when they open a chest. I do not see it as "Greedy" to take something that you were fortunate to have drop for you over the other player who had the same chances as you and didnt get it. Nor do I view it as a "problem" when a player, who again had equal chances as you, gives up the item that he was randomly awarded to a friend/guild mate.

Not Signed for me.

fco-karatekid
05-20-2012, 02:51 AM
I don't see it solving the problem and as far as passing to guildies, your loot is...

Alrik_Fassbauer
05-20-2012, 05:15 AM
I never saw that there was a possibility to pass on items from a chest.

I just never saw those black, tiny arrows.

And no-one told me.

I even didn't saw that when a guild member told me about it.

Only much, much later someone pointed me to it.

Those arrows should have a distinct, very definitively DIFFERENT colour.

Because as it is now, that's just bad bad bad UI communication. These arrows are concealed like a hiding rabbit in an open acre.

Cyiwin
05-20-2012, 05:28 AM
Apologies, but I don't share your view point here. Every one has the same chances as everyone else at getting particular named loot when they open a chest. I do not see it as "Greedy" to take something that you were fortunate to have drop for you over the other player who had the same chances as you and didnt get it. Nor do I view it as a "problem" when a player, who again had equal chances as you, gives up the item that he was randomly awarded to a friend/guild mate.

Not Signed for me.

Lets say you are a pugger and joined a raid. The raid that also has four individuals who are in a guild together. At the end chest one of the four guildies pulls an item you can use and he doesn't want it. He doesn't put it up for roll and passes it to one of his guild mates. You get a nice item that you don't need so you put it up for roll. The guild mate that passed his item internally wins the roll and gets your item. Everyone did not have and equal chance in this raid. The only way to have an equal chance is a system where named BTC loot went to a common area and not auto assigned.

Aurora1979
05-20-2012, 06:47 AM
Lets say you are a pugger and joined a raid. The raid that also has four individuals who are in a guild together. At the end chest one of the four guildies pulls an item you can use and he doesn't want it. He doesn't put it up for roll and passes it to one of his guild mates. You get a nice item that you don't need so you put it up for roll. The guild mate that passed his item internally wins the roll and gets your item. Everyone did not have and equal chance in this raid. The only way to have an equal chance is a system where named BTC loot went to a common area and not auto assigned.

whats to stop me and guildie both rolling for it, even though I dont need the item so I can then pass it to them?

Its the same result.

All you are asking for is the hidden roll done by the game, on named items, when you first open the chest to be removed.

You then want to manually roll on the named items.

The end result is still the same. random person gets X item. The suggestion in the OP changes nothing except to add another manual task in.

callforkills
05-20-2012, 09:43 AM
I think you're missing something. IF the suggestion was implemented:
Swapping named items is impossible with this system = a change, because no guildies will swap because they cant. The item is automatically transported from chest to roll winners inventory.

Of course it is difficult to judge if a player needs an item or not, but with this change a fighter cant just take a cleric item if he needs it this life. I know that this is jsut an additional roll, but this is not what the change is about. If the cleric item is put up for "public roll" fighters would in most cases not roll for the item while they when the item is in the cehst have a bigger tendecy to take the item.

Uska
05-20-2012, 09:46 AM
exactly! The people who actually dont need the item and wouldn't roll on it can then just loot the item or pass it to a guildie.


you dont get it its their loot not that parties

Uska
05-20-2012, 09:48 AM
I think you're missing something. IF the suggestion was implemented:
Swapping named items is impossible with this system = a change, because no guildies will swap because they cant


you really dont understand the current loot system do you? the game rolls for a random list for everyone and then applies it are you wanting it to reassign someone's loot if they can't currently use it. Then NO

Vellrad
05-20-2012, 09:49 AM
Actually, in DDO you get better chance to get loot with complete strangers in raid than in other MMOs, because in most of the other games loot is assigned by raid leader.

Memnir
05-20-2012, 09:55 AM
Would solve zero loot drama - it would only bring on a new form of it.
The system is fine now, and this change would add nothing positive to the game.

Cyiwin
05-20-2012, 10:03 AM
whats to stop me and guildie both rolling for it, even though I dont need the item so I can then pass it to them?

Its the same result.

All you are asking for is the hidden roll done by the game, on named items, when you first open the chest to be removed.

You then want to manually roll on the named items.

The end result is still the same. random person gets X item. The suggestion in the OP changes nothing except to add another manual task in.

Hmm looks like you missed my other post #7. The end result is random person who has a use for the item gets it and there is no ability to pass it to a friend/guilty.

Uska
05-20-2012, 10:15 AM
Hmm looks like you missed my other post #7. The end result is random person who has a use for the item gets it and there is no ability to pass it to a friend/guilty.
no need to fix what isnt broken

Cyiwin
05-20-2012, 10:22 AM
you really dont understand the current loot system do you? the game rolls for a random list for everyone and then applies it are you wanting it to reassign someone's loot if they can't currently use it. Then NO

Wouldn't it be easier if the BTC loot wasn't assigned to a person? If it was assigned to the group then the people who want the item could opt in for a chance at it. Everyone has an equal chance at getting it and it is still random. Players can opt out of the roll if it is something they can't use.

Cyiwin
05-20-2012, 10:27 AM
no need to fix what isnt broken

What is broken has been brought up more than once. Any arguments on how the suggestion would be less fair?

Cyiwin
05-20-2012, 10:31 AM
Would solve zero loot drama - it would only bring on a new form of it.
The system is fine now, and this change would add nothing positive to the game.

I'm actually leaning towards what would be fair to everyone in the raid. Drama will always be there.

Cholgosh
05-20-2012, 10:42 AM
Wouldn't it be easier if the BTC loot wasn't assigned to a person? If it was assigned to the group then the people who want the item could opt in for a chance at it. Everyone has an equal chance at getting it and it is still random. Players can opt out of the roll if it is something they can't use.

This is, in effect, the current system. You open the chest and there's a die roll to determine who gets the various individual items in the chest. When the chest UI opens on your screen, you are seeing the result of the die roll. Yes, that named item is "assigned" to one or another party member. You know why? They won the die roll. If they don't want it, they can offer it to the group, offer to a pal/guildie/friend with benefits/whatever. That's the "opt out" part.

Nothing to fix here except this notion that you can control what someone else does with the loot that the game has already determined is theirs.

(alternatively, you can run only in guild groups in a guild that shares loot in a "need before greed" fashion.)

Sgt_Hart
05-20-2012, 10:47 AM
So wait.. this would mean I'd have the same chance when running with a random pack of idiots, as with a group hand crafted and carefully assembled to the raid/quest a 20 minute long chuckle fest?

Sorry, but if it drops in my name, its my loot.. No matter if I put it up for roll, pass it to a friend, or leave it to rot in the chest, is my business. While your idea has merit and will accomplish what you (stress You) want it to, It's remarkably like lighting the dog on fire to get rid of his flea's. You can be damned sure the dog doesn't want it, ain't gonna enjoy it, and won't appreciate it, no matter how well it works out for you.

Leave the beastie to his slight discomfort. The system as it is functions remarkably like life: It's easier with friends.

Vanquishedfo
05-20-2012, 10:53 AM
I dont think the OP nor anyone sounding in agreement with them is fully comprehending the high calibur of the current reward system. Granted there are flaws, the greatest of which is the ability to SEE OTHER PEOPLES LOOT! Now I have nothing against people passing an item in the chest to another party member, even one they may have personal ties like friendship or romantic one. However I do take umbridge with those who DEMAND my or another persons loot be put up for a roll, base on feeling it is more useful to another party member, or think rare loot is somehow the PARTIES rather then the person who it dropped for.

When EACH person in the party has EQUAL chance for an item to drop in thier name, that should be the end of it. Although it is exceedingly rare, there have been a few screen shots posted over the years showing groups well favored by the loot gawds with most of the party recieving named drops.

Its not as if when one person gets a specific named item in the chest, it locks it out dropping for another. The only complaint I see from the OP here is that he doesnt like it when friends or guilded brethren who have clear ties to one another pass thier luck on to another.

Now proxy rolling is something else entirely. I personally DONT put items up for a roll ever. MY LOOT IS MY LOOT. However should I pull something I have already, or have no use for in my future, then I pass it to who ever says they want it. If I have RL friends( who are also my only guildies) in party I ask them first if they need it. If none do then I ask the puggers.

Is it wrong to favor friends and long time allies above strangers? Not in my book, nor is it against RP taught around the tabletop. Those known to the character are naturally going to be more cared for.

Uska
05-20-2012, 12:14 PM
What is broken has been brought up more than once. Any arguments on how the suggestion would be less fair?

The system rolls the loot already what could be more fair the system is fine what the problem is people feeling entitled to someone else's loot

McFlay
05-20-2012, 12:34 PM
I always thought if something dropped in my name its mine to do as I please with, if it drops for someone else its theirs to do as they please. If they are kind enough to put it up for roll, and I'm lucky enough to win that roll, awesome.

If you feel like you are getting screwed out of loot due to guild members or buddies passing with no roll, it was theirs to begin with. It didn't drop for you. Does it matter if Joey passed it to Bobby, or just pulled it himself? Either way it didn't drop in your name and you have no claim for it. If he wants to put it up for roll your lucky, not entitled.

Seems like the easy solution here would be to avoid running in groups dominated by one guild, since there is more of a chance of them passing amongst themselves. Or you could start/join a guild or make some raiding buddies if you just want to increase your chance at loot.

The whole need/greed argument doesn't really work in this game. Lots of people on here TR their characters, meaning I might not need that SoS that dropped because I'm a monk this life...but why shouldn't I roll on it when I'm going to be a two handed fighter for my next 6 lives?

Bottom line is every time 2 people click on a chest, if they both want the same item, they both have the same % chance to acquire it. If it doesn't drop in your name tough luck try again. If someone is nice enough to put it up for roll thank them, otherwise get over it, it wasn't yours to begin with.

Thanquil
05-20-2012, 12:55 PM
The idea:

Named items obatained from end chests should not be lootable like the regular items. The idea is that you all roll for the named item instead of making it a part of the regular loot. Those taht dont need dont have to roll.

That way no player can be greedy and just take the item and no guildies can swap the item in the chest. The downside is that it'll be a step towards World of Warcraft.

/not signed

heythatsmyfish
05-20-2012, 01:01 PM
/not signed

if it drops in your name it has already been rolled for. If the person doesn't need it they may put it up for roll. loot in this game seems to be way too easy to get. I have several extremely well geared toons because of this. every raid we do it seems like everyone already has there gear and its rolled to be vendor trashed because everyone already has their gear. If anything I would like to see newer raids that have more challenge to them and more rare loot.

Back in the day people with +3 +4 tomes weren't so common and MA and LOB epics were difficult raids now it seems like we are being handed a I win button. I know it isn't like this for everyone and that's a good thing. I like having things other don't makes me feel special.

Robai
05-20-2012, 01:33 PM
The current system works fine.

My loot is mine, it's already rolled, I don't have to roll again for that item.
For example, I don't have to explain why my fighter takes Thaarak Wraps or an item useful only for casters (obviously, to save time on future lives).

But I wouldn't roll for an item, which is not useful for my current class if someone puts it for a roll.

And it's absolutely ok to me if someone passes his loot to his guildier/friend without a roll, it's not my loot anyway.

KoboldKiller
05-20-2012, 01:42 PM
Here is an easy fix to solve all of the loot drama.

Turbine removes the ability to see what others have in the chest and it also no longer displays the loot as it is removed from the chest in chat as it does now.

That way NOBODY has ANY CLUE what was in the chest or who got it.

Everybody loots their own and moves on.

Now I know people will claim this precludes being able to roll on something.

Not true. If my loot generator gives me a Sword of Shadows for instance and I don't really want it then I simple state it's up for a roll.

Conversely if I don't want to put it up I say nothing, nobody has any clue I got it and no drama, I loot, say thanks and drop group.

Loot drama will never end as long as someone thinks they are more entitled to something than someone else. So if you don't know they have it then there is no argument.

wizardsguild
05-20-2012, 03:20 PM
/not signed

ssgcmwatson
05-20-2012, 05:11 PM
The only change I would like to see is if someone leaves something in the chest and finishes out of a raid, then the game would randomly assign it to someone still in the instance.

Habreno
05-20-2012, 07:54 PM
The only change I would like to see is if someone leaves something in the chest and finishes out of a raid, then the game would randomly assign it to someone still in the instance.

This I /signed.

The OP? NEVER.



At the OP:

When a chest is opened, there are lists. There are SEVERAL hidden dice rolls made, the first determines which list is picked, the second determines an item on that list, or what kind of lootgen piece is given, and the third and fourth (in lootgen case) determine what is on the item. There are also dice rolls for determining if you get gems, what kind, how many, and how many coins, as well as anything else which can drop.

Now, after 5-10 rolls are made for each person opening the chest (why do you think it takes time to open the chest-this is when the rolls are most likely being made, and the system needs time to do that) you see what you have won in the rolls. What you win on your rolls is totally independent of anyone else- someone can get the same exact roll set as you and get the same loot. If something drops to a person, it is that person's loot. It is not the group's loot-NOTHING is ever assigned specifically to a group-and never will be, nor never was. It is that specific person's loot. If he or she does not want it, it is entirely his or her choice to do with it as he or she pleases-be it give it to someone else, let anyone who needs it get a chance to get it, or simply let it rot, or even pull it to vendor. Nowhere in there is it the group's loot to distribute-it falls to the individual.

Now, this does not mean you may not ASK someone to pass something, especially if they do not intend on looting it. Most people are willing to pass things they do not want to loot, such as wands or scrolls, which are not worth much. Also, people will ask if a certain item is up for roll, however it may not be.






In conclusion, since there is already a plethorea of rolls done to determine what loot is distributed, there is no reason to force named items, which drop for an INDIVIDUAL, to be group-rolled. Someone has already won the roll for a specific item. Your change would mean that some people would get nothing for an item, instead of their named item, since it goes for group roll?

Sorry, but 1000x over /never signed.

Sidewaysgts86
05-21-2012, 02:41 AM
Lets say you are a pugger and joined a raid. The raid that also has four individuals who are in a guild together. At the end chest one of the four guildies pulls an item you can use and he doesn't want it. He doesn't put it up for roll and passes it to one of his guild mates. You get a nice item that you don't need so you put it up for roll. The guild mate that passed his item internally wins the roll and gets your item. Everyone did not have and equal chance in this raid. The only way to have an equal chance is a system where named BTC loot went to a common area and not auto assigned.

Would it be "nicer" of you to put your "nice but not-needed" item up for roll up for roll to a bunch of people who decided to trade their "youd really like to have them" items that they won amongst themselves without putting it up for roll? Of course it would be. But that was entirely your choice to do so.

Responding to the part in bold, despite what you said- Yes, everyone DID have an equal chance. Why? BECAUSE EVERYONE HAD AN EQUAL CHANCE. As pointed out- Hidden rolls are made that determine what loot you get. Everyone makes this roll when they loot a chest, everyone has chances at the very same loot. Just because it dropped for a group of friends who you determined "may not need it as much as you" is irrelevant to the fact that you had just as much chance as any of them as pulling it in the first place.

Cyiwin
05-21-2012, 05:09 AM
Would it be "nicer" of you to put your "nice but not-needed" item up for roll up for roll to a bunch of people who decided to trade their "youd really like to have them" items that they won amongst themselves without putting it up for roll? Of course it would be. But that was entirely your choice to do so.

Responding to the part in bold, despite what you said- Yes, everyone DID have an equal chance. Why? BECAUSE EVERYONE HAD AN EQUAL CHANCE. As pointed out- Hidden rolls are made that determine what loot you get. Everyone makes this roll when they loot a chest, everyone has chances at the very same loot. Just because it dropped for a group of friends who you determined "may not need it as much as you" is irrelevant to the fact that you had just as much chance as any of them as pulling it in the first place.

I must be missing something so please someone help me out. I don't understand how everyone is getting an equal chance with the current system.

12 people finish a raid.
6 are guilies
6 are random puggers

1 BTC item drops in the end chest

50% chance the item drops to a guildy meaning either he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 5 remaining guildies.
50% chance the item drops to one of the random puggers meaning he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 11 remaining members of the raid group.

As presented it's clear that everyone doesn't have an equal chance, so where is my mistake?

Niv-mizzet
05-21-2012, 05:43 AM
Responding to the part in bold, despite what you said- Yes, everyone DID have an equal chance. Why? BECAUSE EVERYONE HAD AN EQUAL CHANCE.

Let's take the (admittedly very extreme) situation where you are the 12th in a raid, but the other 11 are all guilded. You are the 2nd healer they have been waiting for, so you are by no means unimportant or a tag-a-long. All of the 11 guildmates have decided (without your knowledge) that if any of them get the awesome healer loot, it is going to the guilded healer. You also desire this loot. In fact, it is your entire reason for running the raid. If you were told before-hand that your only shot at this loot was pulling it yourself this run, you may have opted out and waited for a different run. Alas, you were not informed of this before-hand.

So your party wins. You personally use up resources to help it succeed. Maybe scrolls or some pots. Now comes the chest. Only one named BTC item drops, and its the healer piece, assigned to one of the pure-melee. Of course, as stated earlier, it gets shifted immediately to the other healer with not a word in party chat. Never mind that you were just as important as him in the tasks you all needed to accomplish to get that chest.

Now you may say that the game has rolled once for each of the twelve raid members and come to the conclusion that everyone had an equal chance.

You must also understand that there are many people who would look at the situation and say "Actually, it seems as if the guilded healer had 11 chances, and you had 1."

I admit its definitely a rare case, but both not impossible and not unprecedented.

So while I share your belief that the current loot system is "sound" and not desperately in need of change, I disagree on what I took as your implication that there was absolutely no other credible viewpoint regarding the loot system.

Vellrad
05-21-2012, 06:17 AM
I must be missing something so please someone help me out. I don't understand how everyone is getting an equal chance with the current system.

12 people finish a raid.
6 are guilies
6 are random puggers

1 BTC item drops in the end chest

50% chance the item drops to a guildy meaning either he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 5 remaining guildies.
50% chance the item drops to one of the random puggers meaning he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 11 remaining members of the raid group.

As presented it's clear that everyone doesn't have an equal chance, so where is my mistake?

All is wrong.
Let me tell you how it works:

Raid is finished, 6 guildies, 6 strangers.
Guildie #1 got 1% to get BTC item in chest.
Guildie #2got 1% to get BTC item in chest.
Guildie #3 got 1% to get BTC item in chest.
Guildie #4 got 1% to get BTC item in chest.
Guildie #5 got 1% to get BTC item in chest.
Guildie #6 got 1% to get BTC item in chest.
Stranger #1 got 1% to get BTC item in chest.
Stranger #2 got 1% to get BTC item in chest.
Stranger #3 got 1% to get BTC item in chest.
Stranger #4 got 1% to get BTC item in chest.
Stranger #5 got 1% to get BTC item in chest.
Stranger #6 got 1% to get BTC item in chest.

This is how random loot distribution works in DDO.

Uska
05-21-2012, 06:24 AM
I must be missing something so please someone help me out. I don't understand how everyone is getting an equal chance with the current system.

12 people finish a raid.
6 are guilies
6 are random puggers

1 BTC item drops in the end chest

50% chance the item drops to a guildy meaning either he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 5 remaining guildies.
50% chance the item drops to one of the random puggers meaning he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 11 remaining members of the raid group.

As presented it's clear that everyone doesn't have an equal chance, so where is my mistake?


if someone doesnt get a btc in the chest then the system didnt roll one for them understand now? if the person or persons that the system did roll btc loot decide they want well its theirs ok? if they decided to pass it or put it up for a roll its their to do so with. YOU have zero entitlement to expect another roll on that BTC loot as the roll has been made.

RandomKeypress
05-21-2012, 07:12 AM
/not signed

This would slow down raids when there isn't going to be loot drama. Who decides when to roll the dice anyway? Wait until DCs are back? Give everyone x minutes to scan their gear to decided if they want it?

The current system works. Running with guildies increases the chance of you getting the loot you want? Horror!

Aurora1979
05-21-2012, 07:25 AM
Let's take the (admittedly very extreme) situation where you are the 12th in a raid, but the other 11 are all guilded. You are the 2nd healer they have been waiting for, so you are by no means unimportant or a tag-a-long. All of the 11 guildmates have decided (without your knowledge) that if any of them get the awesome healer loot, it is going to the guilded healer. You also desire this loot. In fact, it is your entire reason for running the raid. If you were told before-hand that your only shot at this loot was pulling it yourself this run, you may have opted out and waited for a different run. Alas, you were not informed of this before-hand.

So your party wins. You personally use up resources to help it succeed. Maybe scrolls or some pots. Now comes the chest. Only one named BTC item drops, and its the healer piece, assigned to one of the pure-melee. Of course, as stated earlier, it gets shifted immediately to the other healer with not a word in party chat. Never mind that you were just as important as him in the tasks you all needed to accomplish to get that chest.

Now you may say that the game has rolled once for each of the twelve raid members and come to the conclusion that everyone had an equal chance.

You must also understand that there are many people who would look at the situation and say "Actually, it seems as if the guilded healer had 11 chances, and you had 1."

I admit its definitely a rare case, but both not impossible and not unprecedented.

So while I share your belief that the current loot system is "sound" and not desperately in need of change, I disagree on what I took as your implication that there was absolutely no other credible viewpoint regarding the loot system.

Thats a debate over guild loot policies though.

Ive been in a few guilds that put everything up for equal roll. Some guilds put guildies first.

In your example there I would notice as soon as I zone in that everyone is in the same guild and voice my concern. If I don't want to run I would drop..... I wouldn't though, loot doesn't bother me that much, and next time I run with people from that same guild and they dont need the cleric gear they might also pass it too me.

Being in a guild will always have benefits.

Uska
05-21-2012, 07:51 AM
I must be missing something so please someone help me out. I don't understand how everyone is getting an equal chance with the current system.

12 people finish a raid.
6 are guilies
6 are random puggers

1 BTC item drops in the end chest

50% chance the item drops to a guildy meaning either he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 5 remaining guildies.
50% chance the item drops to one of the random puggers meaning he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 11 remaining members of the raid group.

As presented it's clear that everyone doesn't have an equal chance, so where is my mistake?


there could be 12 items that drop in the chest see everyone gets a roll from the system already you shouldnt get a roll on someone else's item

Now I have never seen 12 items drop I admit but I have seen 4 or more drop several times and zero on a rare occasion

mobrien316
05-21-2012, 08:25 AM
That way no player can be greedy and just take the item and no guildies can swap the item in the chest.

So when an item drops in my name and I take it from the chest I am being greedy? Why do you feel that anyone else in the group has a greater right to my stuff than I do?



(I didn't read the entire thread, but I assume someone else already pointed this out. So +1 to whomever that was.)

Kawai
05-21-2012, 08:36 AM
/not signed.
Your loot is your loot.
Period.
...and a punk'n to the head of anyone who cries.
-Tarelyn

Expalphalog
05-21-2012, 09:07 AM
NO a roll has already been made when it shows up everyone has a percentage chance to get something from the end chest there is no need and no desire to add another roll

This.

The game doesn't assign loot to whomever it chooses, it selects loot and player by roll. The people under your proposed change who would pass on the chance to roll are the exact same people who, under the current system, will put the item up for roll.

So, essentially, you're asking them to change the system we have now and replace it with a functionally identical system that includes even more RNG, thus increasing lag.

Vanquishedfo
05-21-2012, 11:26 AM
I must be missing something so please someone help me out. I don't understand how everyone is getting an equal chance with the current system.

12 people finish a raid.
6 are guilies
6 are random puggers

1 BTC item drops in the end chest

50% chance the item drops to a guildy meaning either he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 5 remaining guildies.
50% chance the item drops to one of the random puggers meaning he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 11 remaining members of the raid group.

As presented it's clear that everyone doesn't have an equal chance, so where is my mistake?

The EQUAL CHANCE was when each looked into the chest. THAT IS IT. What your talking about afterwards has nothing to do with loot rolls and everything to do with the natural and logical advantage of working with friends and known allies.

What drops for another in a chest, and whatever fate that befalls it has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR FAIR CHANCE.

If you want another persons loot that badly, then try befriending them well in advance of the quest, you know make a pal, who knows even one of these fancy things called a guild people use to band together and improve thier odds of thriving in the harsh world.

I and a buddy go in to a quest with 4 random strangers. I pull something he needs and I dont, he gets it even if those 4 strangers could use it to, sure they might have brought more to the party, but the guy I know who will leap between me and arrows when I get incapped and die by my side is far more worthy of sharing my loot then the guy I dont know who almost certainly wont have my back, and will more then likely ***** at me for not being min maxxed enough.

Lover,Family,Friends, and guildies roughly in that order. A pug can start out unknown and fast reach the rank of friend if they show worthy of mine. Until that time, my loot is MINE!

aeroplanefly
05-21-2012, 11:47 AM
I see too many rosy, predetermined, hand picked scenarios here.

If a guild starts a raid, lets say shroud, let's not forget that the only reason why it got placed on the lfm is because the guild had more than enough people to start it (rather than waiting for a PUG to fill up). Many raids don't even make it to the LFM page.

If another guildy got an item you had set out to get, maybe it's because one of the guildies ran it three times with the guild and didn't get it (or gave it up multiple items many other times).

Solution? If you're in a raid with six or more guildies or guildies and friends, thank the party / guild leader for the run. If you didn't get the item, tell him you'd be happy to join on the next run if there is space. With assumptions that you were more than useful, he'd probably allow you to join and share in the spoils of what he took time to create.

Cyiwin
05-21-2012, 12:46 PM
The suggestion isn't perfect, there would have to be a time limit to close the lottery after the chest is initially opened if everyone doesn't opt in/out. This is the best argument against the suggestion as far as I'm concerned. The other comments about the number of drops changing has nothing to do with the suggestion, the amount/chance of a drop happening stays the same, it just appears in a common area instead of next to a name.

A lot of posts sound like people don't want to give up the guildy double dip policy. It surprises me how people can do this and square it with themselves.

Flavilandile
05-21-2012, 02:49 PM
if it ain't broken don't fix it.

The chest system is not broken.
µIt does not need fixing.

As, by reading a few lines in the threads, it seems that some people don't understand the loot generation in DDO, here is the full explanation.

When a chest is opened, a roll is made for every player character present in the quest.
This roll generates the loot for that player character.
When a named item is present in the loot table of a given chest, as defined by the above two lines, everybody has an equal chance to see that named item appear in his own loot list.

So in theory, a raid group can receive 12 Dreamspitters in the Reaver's chest. ( along with unnamed loot. )

Sidewaysgts86
05-22-2012, 04:32 AM
I must be missing something so please someone help me out. I don't understand how everyone is getting an equal chance with the current system.

You are missing something.

Each individual has the same chance. Individual 1 has X% chance, individual 2 has the same X% chance, individual 3 has the same X% chance, individual 4 has the same X% chance, individual 5 has the same X% chance, individual 6 has the same X% chance, individual 7 has the same X% chance, individual 8 has the same X% chance, individual 9 has the same X% chance, individual 10 has the same X% chance, individual 11 has the same X% chance, individual 12 has the same X% chance.


12 people finish a raid.
6 are guilies
6 are random puggers

1 BTC item drops in the end chest

50% chance the item drops to a guildy meaning either he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 5 remaining guildies.
50% chance the item drops to one of the random puggers meaning he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 11 remaining members of the raid group.

As presented it's clear that everyone doesn't have an equal chance, so where is my mistake?

No, its not clear. Youre comparing apples to oranges- Thats your mistake.

Your comparing the chances of an individual pulling a specific piece of loot to a GROUP pulling a specific piece of loot. Of course the group is going to have larger chances at pulling a specific piece of loot than an individual.

What I fail to see is why this is a problem. Each individual has the SAME chance at pulling a specific piece of loot as ANYONE else in the party. A GROUP, being MORE than an individual, has a LARGER chance at pulling a specific piece of loot. Attempting to give the "individual" an equal chance as GROUP, is anything BUT fair.

Lets put a spin on this situation, and imagine it playing out somewhere else, shall we?

Theres a raffle at work. There are 12 prizes. Each prize is designated a number, 1-12. There are 12 tickets, each with a number on it ranging from 1 to 12, with no repeated numbers on any of the tickets. Each ticket costs 10 dollars, each person entering can only buy 1 ticket. 12 people enter this raffle, 6 individuals enter, and 6 friends enter together with the agreed upon notion that theyll take the 6 prizes they win, and divide them as they see fit amongst themselves. Whatever number is on your ticket dictates what prize you get (by matching the number).

The raffle numbers are pulled. Much to your dismay, the prize you REALLY wanted, tickets to a local football game, went to Cindy in that group of friends. Cindy really doesnt want the tickets to the football game, but knows her friend she entered with, Tim, really likes foot ball- and gives the tickets to him. Maybe someone else in her group got something she really wanted, maybe they didnt.

The point is youre saying that this "group" shouldnt have had any more of a chance at these tickets than "you" as an individual- And its "unfair" for cindy to enter with her friends in the hopes shell be able to give her prize to one of her friends to make them happy if she wins something one of them wants and she doesnt, or possibly get something from one of her friends if the opposite happens.

Give me a break. You had the same chance at those tickets that ANY other specific person in that party did. You as an INDIVIDUAL however, do NOT have the same chance as a GROUP at winning a specific item. If you dont understand WHY this IS actually "Fair", and why what you propose ISNT fair, then I'm simply short on words to express my dismay at your comprehension of the situation.

Spoprockel
05-22-2012, 05:33 AM
The suggestion isn't perfect, there would have to be a time limit to close the lottery after the chest is initially opened if everyone doesn't opt in/out. This is the best argument against the suggestion as far as I'm concerned. The other comments about the number of drops changing has nothing to do with the suggestion, the amount/chance of a drop happening stays the same, it just appears in a common area instead of next to a name.

A lot of posts sound like people don't want to give up the guildy double dip policy. It surprises me how people can do this and square it with themselves.


Don't run with guilds who handle it like that.

They might run the raid to get one of their guildies that specific item.

Put up own raid lfms.

Problem solved.

Cyiwin
05-22-2012, 05:36 AM
You are missing something.

Each individual has the same chance. Individual 1 has X% chance, individual 2 has the same X% chance, individual 3 has the same X% chance, individual 4 has the same X% chance, individual 5 has the same X% chance, individual 6 has the same X% chance, individual 7 has the same X% chance, individual 8 has the same X% chance, individual 9 has the same X% chance, individual 10 has the same X% chance, individual 11 has the same X% chance, individual 12 has the same X% chance.



No, its not clear. Youre comparing apples to oranges- Thats your mistake.

Your comparing the chances of an individual pulling a specific piece of loot to a GROUP pulling a specific piece of loot. Of course the group is going to have larger chances at pulling a specific piece of loot than an individual.

What I fail to see is why this is a problem. Each individual has the SAME chance at pulling a specific piece of loot as ANYONE else in the party. A GROUP, being MORE than an individual, has a LARGER chance at pulling a specific piece of loot. Attempting to give the "individual" an equal chance as GROUP, is anything BUT fair.

Lets put a spin on this situation, and imagine it playing out somewhere else, shall we?

Theres a raffle at work. There are 12 prizes. Each prize is designated a number, 1-12. There are 12 tickets, each with a number on it ranging from 1 to 12, with no repeated numbers on any of the tickets. Each ticket costs 10 dollars, each person entering can only buy 1 ticket. 12 people enter this raffle, 6 individuals enter, and 6 friends enter together with the agreed upon notion that theyll take the 6 prizes they win, and divide them as they see fit amongst themselves. Whatever number is on your ticket dictates what prize you get (by matching the number).

The raffle numbers are pulled. Much to your dismay, the prize you REALLY wanted, tickets to a local football game, went to Cindy in that group of friends. Cindy really doesnt want the tickets to the football game, but knows her friend she entered with, Tim, really likes foot ball- and gives the tickets to him. Maybe someone else in her group got something she really wanted, maybe they didnt.

The point is youre saying that this "group" shouldnt have had any more of a chance at these tickets than "you" as an individual- And its "unfair" for cindy to enter with her friends in the hopes shell be able to give her prize to one of her friends to make them happy if she wins something one of them wants and she doesnt, or possibly get something from one of her friends if the opposite happens.

Give me a break. You had the same chance at those tickets that ANY other specific person in that party did. You as an INDIVIDUAL however, do NOT have the same chance as a GROUP at winning a specific item. If you dont understand WHY this IS actually "Fair", and why what you propose ISNT fair, then I'm simply short on words to express my dismay at your comprehension of the situation.

Nice try, this is not the same. In your example the inner group of 6 friends wouldn't also expect to be included in getting unwanted items from the other 6 strangers, which is exactly what happens in this game.

So if I used your example correctly with relation to this game, 12 people are in a raffle for 2 prizes(everyone doesn't get a BTC item at the end of the raid). 6 friends get together and decide if they get something another friend wants, they will give it to them. They other 6 individuals are not made aware of these plans. 1 of the 6 individuals wins a prize and doesn't need it, he asks anyone of the 11 remaining people if they want it. 1 of the 6 friends wins a prize and it goes to one of the other 5 friends.

You can't argue that the odds aren't in your favor if you are one of the friends. You can argue that it is ok to have better odds because of "insert rational here".

I think the sort of person who is unguilded/small guilded and PUGs in a raid group is also a newer player or one who wouldn't necessarily understand that the more powerful guilds are going to deny them from rolling opportunities. Any way you try to slice it if you do this you are taking advantage of others by ignorance or deception.

Now if you tell people they won't be allowed to roll for any internal guild items when they join the group and they still decide to go ahead that is fair. If you deny someone a roll on your unwanted item and then roll on theirs do you think it is fair?

Spoprockel
05-22-2012, 06:02 AM
Nice try, this is not the same. In your example the inner group of 6 friends wouldn't also expect to be included in getting unwanted items from the other 6 strangers, which is exactly what happens in this game.

So if I used your example correctly with relation to this game, 12 people are in a raffle for 2 prizes(everyone doesn't get a BTC item at the end of the raid). 6 friends get together and decide if they get something another friend wants, they will give it to them. They other 6 individuals are not made aware of these plans. 1 of the 6 individuals wins a prize and doesn't need it, he asks anyone of the 11 remaining people if they want it. 1 of the 6 friends wins a prize and it goes to one of the other 5 friends.

You can't argue that the odds aren't in your favor if you are one of the friends. You can argue that it is ok to have better odds because of "insert rational here".

I think the sort of person who is unguilded/small guilded and PUGs in a raid group is also a newer player or one who wouldn't necessarily understand that the more powerful guilds are going to deny them from rolling opportunities. Any way you try to slice it if you do this you are taking advantage of others by ignorance or deception.

Now if you tell people they won't be allowed to roll for any internal guild items when they join the group and they still decide to go ahead that is fair. If you deny someone a roll on your unwanted item and then roll on theirs do you think it is fair?


What you are describing here is proxy rolling. Most people will blacklist proxy rollers or won't let them roll on any loot anymore.
Some guilds might think otherwise, but their guild runs can be avoided.


It is totally different from a guild pugging out a few spots in their guild run and passing their loot to guildies without a roll.

Would you put your btc loot up for roll if you have a friend in the party who runs with you daily who'd like to have it?

I'm not saying it's okay to roll on it to pass it to your friend.
I'm saying it's okay to pass it to your friend without a roll if it drops under your name.


Proxy rolling is a weak reason to change the whole loot system.

Just squelch any proxy rollers and don't join their guild runs.

Cyiwin
05-22-2012, 07:31 AM
What you are describing here is proxy rolling. Most people will blacklist proxy rollers or won't let them roll on any loot anymore.
Some guilds might think otherwise, but their guild runs can be avoided.


It is totally different from a guild pugging out a few spots in their guild run and passing their loot to guildies without a roll.

Would you put your btc loot up for roll if you have a friend in the party who runs with you daily who'd like to have it?

I'm not saying it's okay to roll on it to pass it to your friend.
I'm saying it's okay to pass it to your friend without a roll if it drops under your name.


Proxy rolling is a weak reason to change the whole loot system.

Just squelch any proxy rollers and don't join their guild runs.

Thanks for the good question, I would give him the item and remove myself from rolling on anyone else's items since I just excluded them from rolling on mine. Even doing this is not totally fair to everyone else in the group since I changed the rules after I discovered I pulled an item my friend could use.

I have to qualify my answer, it's easy for me to say this as I haven't been put in that situation since raiding doesn't fit into my play style. I just find this topic fascinating.

You got me thinking, proxy rolling and guild sharing both have the same end result of increasing your chance of getting the item as the number of your friends increases.

justagame
05-22-2012, 07:54 AM
I must be missing something so please someone help me out. I don't understand how everyone is getting an equal chance with the current system.

12 people finish a raid.
6 are guilies
6 are random puggers

1 BTC item drops in the end chest

50% chance the item drops to a guildy meaning either he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 5 remaining guildies.
50% chance the item drops to one of the random puggers meaning he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 11 remaining members of the raid group.

As presented it's clear that everyone doesn't have an equal chance, so where is my mistake?

Your mistake is in presumptively assigning probabilities for your chance of pulling loot that drops in someone else's name. Everyone has the exact same change of having any particular named item dropping in their name. Everyone. If only 1 item dropped, there was a 1 in 12 chance it dropped for YOU. Period.

Now, should someone be so kind as to offer you a chance at something they don't want, take it as a nice, generous gesture. Your mistake is expecting you have some kind of claim to said item, and thus you are adding in your expectation of the probability that someone else will pass that item to you.

BTW, plenty of guilded players put stuff they don't want up for roll -- I see it happen all the time. If people are proxy rolling, it's simple -- don't group with them any more, or don't include them in any of your future rolls. That's much better than some system that forces a re-roll of loot just because you didn't like the outcome of the first (hidden) roll.

Hafeal
05-22-2012, 08:08 AM
Op [edit: and Cyiwin] -

As you are, by forum date, a long time player, I am trying to understand the purpose of a suggestion like this 6 years into your playing the game.

You are asking people to be fair and play by a specific moral compass - acting in the best altruistic furtherment of the group. Unfortunately, life isn't fair and people operate on different moral compasses.

The game does a good job of distributing loot in a manner where players can do what they want with their loot. You can react accordingly. I do not expect strangers to give me things even when we have joined together to accomplish a purpose. If they are fortunate and generous, I am grateful. If they do not, I shrug it off. There is not a piece of loot you 'need' in the game to finish a quest or have fun, imo.

:)

Sidewaysgts86
05-22-2012, 08:41 AM
Nice try, this is not the same.

Its *Exactly* the same.


In your example the inner group of 6 friends wouldn't also expect to be included in getting unwanted items from the other 6 strangers, which is exactly what happens in this game.

I disagree. They dont "Expect" to get to roll on unwanted items. And anyone who "Expects" this "privilege" is an A-Hole.


So if I used your example correctly with relation to this game, 12 people are in a raffle for 2 prizes(everyone doesn't get a BTC item at the end of the raid).

Objection. Everyone get loots. Weather its "exactly what you wanted" is irrelevant. 12 people. 12 prizes. As you put it, "Nice try". Lets change the situation to something you might feel is more relevant.

12 tickets. 1 prize. 6 individuals, 6 in a group, 5 of whom are only entering to help a friend get that 1 prize BECAUSE HES THEIR FRIEND. One of them wins, and gives the prize to his friend.

Was this fair for everyone around?

YUP.

Was the friend who got the prize more LIKELY to get the loot than you? Indeed. But so what?

Newsflash: Fair =/= Likely. Dont believe me? Pick up a dictionary.


6 friends get together and decide if they get something another friend wants, they will give it to them.
Yup.


They other 6 individuals are not made aware of these plans.
Mmhmm. And?


1 of the 6 individuals wins a prize and doesn't need it, he asks anyone of the 11 remaining people if they want it.

My my, that was generous of them, wasnt it?


1 of the 6 friends wins a prize and it goes to one of the other 5 friends. [/quote[

Completely his choice to do so. Just like it was the "individuals" choice to allow his item go up for roll. Theres *zero* stopping him from disallowing the people who traded "the item he REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted" amongst themselves from joining in the roll. The decision to allow them to do so was 110% his because hes "nicer". Fair is a four letter word not to be confused with "nice".

[quote]You can't argue that the odds aren't in your favor if you are one of the friends.

When did i ever argue against this? I said quite the opposite. I said everyones *individual* chances at a specific item are the same. I said comparing an individuals chances to a GROUPS, is not the same- Nor should it be. You had JUST as much chance as ANYONE there at having that specific item "Drop for you". Again- This is NOT to be confused with "who is more likely to get it".


You can argue that it is ok to have better odds because of "insert rational here".

Will do. I said it fair because everyone had just as much of a chance as anyone else at having the specific item drop for them. What happens after that is entirely up to who it dropped for. Again- Youre not complaining about the actual "looting" mechanic- Youre complaining about what people do with THEIR loot after theyve won it. See the subtle difference?


I think the sort of person who is unguilded/small guilded and PUGs in a raid group is also a newer player or one who wouldn't necessarily understand that the more powerful guilds are going to deny them from rolling opportunities.

One who wouldn't necessarily understand? What kind of player is raiding for specific powerful raid items and "doesnt understand" that players will tend to favor their guildmates/friends when deciding who to give THEIR loot away to? I dont believe any human with an IQ approaching "average" would be naive enough to be as blind as you assert they would be. Im sure theres the modest "exception" going around, but would this type of person be the norm? Hardly- And asserting as such is utter "pulled from the air", & pardon the language, BS.


Any way you try to slice it if you do this you are taking advantage of others by ignorance or deception.

Apologies- But pure rubbish. Taking advantage of others ignorance by deception? Click your heels and say this 3 times, it might just be true. Until then- Its not. Again, you would have to be grotesquely naive to expect differently. Expecting to have the same consideration to SOMEONE ELSES LOOT as their friends and guildmates is ridiculous.



Now if you tell people they won't be allowed to roll for any internal guild items when they join the group and they still decide to go ahead that is fair.

Agreed. But its still "unfair" of you to expect an equal chance at someone elses loot as their friends/guild mates. These people (Friends/guildmates) have done things to warrant having first considerations that you have not done.



If you deny someone a roll on your unwanted item and then roll on theirs do you think it is fair?

"Fair" becomes irrelevant when you allow these people to roll on your items after they skipped you over on theirs. Youve demonstrated youre not merely interested in being fair, youre interested in being "nice". Does this make you more GENEROUS than they are? Sure. But what is the relevance of "Fair" here, when youve already decided you dont care about being fair.

Youre painting a morally confused individual here. Youre portraying someone who is willing to put up his own items for roll after being denied the chance at a particular item because the OWNER of it decided to offer it to his friends/guildmates first. The decision to do so in light of these hypothetical events that transpired was entirely his. Seeing him whine about not having the same consideration as the owners FRIENDS afterwards can only bring the words "Boo Hoo" to mind.


Again, your mistake is that youre not displeased with how the game determines who gets what. Your upset with what people do with THEIR stuff after they get it. You dont like seeing people be loyal to their friend/guildmates.

Again, I implore you to pick up a dictionary and look up the word "fair", then try and understand why it applies to the current looting system.

Expalphalog
05-22-2012, 08:45 AM
Not trying to be rude here, but if you have this many people telling you that your idea is bad, maybe it's time to drop it?

There's a fine line between 'determination' and 'bull-headedness.' I fear you may be closer to that line than you realize.

SiliconScout
05-22-2012, 12:41 PM
I get where this is coming from I really do.

I don't agree though. And that is from someone who has run countless Demon Queen's and only has a Torque because he won a roll on it in a PUG. I even saw a couple go to people who were just going to sell it. In both cases I told them I would have paid them far more to have it. The worst part was the one I saw go unlooted completely. Heartbreaking for sure but I am fine with the rule that it's your loot.

Heck I have a guildie who has been running DQ pretty much non-stop for a year and finally has his torque.

In the end is there a better change of "An" item showing up with more people opening the chest? Of course.
Is there a better chance of that item showing up for you? No.
Should they put it up for a roll if they aren't going to use it or need it? Probably, it's the nice thing but it's not required.

Also passing to Guildies first, that is fair to be honest. It's an advantage of having a guild for gosh sakes. You are there to help each other out.

mobrien316
05-22-2012, 12:42 PM
So if I used your example correctly with relation to this game, 12 people are in a raffle for 2 prizes(everyone doesn't get a BTC item at the end of the raid). 6 friends get together and decide if they get something another friend wants, they will give it to them. They other 6 individuals are not made aware of these plans. 1 of the 6 individuals wins a prize and doesn't need it, he asks anyone of the 11 remaining people if they want it. 1 of the 6 friends wins a prize and it goes to one of the other 5 friends.

You can't argue that the odds aren't in your favor if you are one of the friends. You can argue that it is ok to have better odds because of "insert rational here".

I think you are looking at it backwards. If you have five people rolling with the intention of passing you the item if they win, your chances of winning go up, but my chances stay the same.

If there is a raffle with 100 tickets for sale, and I buy one of them, I have a 1% chance of winning the raffle. If someone else buys ten tickets, they now have a greater chance of winning, but my chance remains the same. If nine other people buy tickets with the intention of passing any winnings to a tenth person, that tenth person has a greater chance of winding up with the prize, but my chance of winning is still exactly the same. If the other 99 people who buy tickets plan on setting the money on fire if they win, it doesn’t affect my chances of winning at all – they remain at 1%.


This is half of the reason why I don’t care if people are proxy rolling; it doesn’t affect my chances of winning. The other half is that I believe that someone who is rolling on an item, whether they intend to bank it, use it, pass it to an alt, pass it to a friend or guildmate, or auction it off in the chest has just as much right to that item as I have. So if an item goes up for roll I have a 9.1% chance of winning if eleven people roll on it, which in my opinion they certainly can. If some of those eleven are planning to pass it to someone else that does not lower my chance of winning, even though it does increase the other person’s chance of winning.

Vellrad
05-22-2012, 01:16 PM
I think you are looking at it backwards. If you have five people rolling with the intention of passing you the item if they win, your chances of winning go up, but my chances stay the same.

If there is a raffle with 100 tickets for sale, and I buy one of them, I have a 1% chance of winning the raffle. If someone else buys ten tickets, they now have a greater chance of winning, but my chance remains the same. If nine other people buy tickets with the intention of passing any winnings to a tenth person, that tenth person has a greater chance of winding up with the prize, but my chance of winning is still exactly the same. If the other 99 people who buy tickets plan on setting the money on fire if they win, it doesn’t affect my chances of winning at all – they remain at 1%.


This is half of the reason why I don’t care if people are proxy rolling; it doesn’t affect my chances of winning. The other half is that I believe that someone who is rolling on an item, whether they intend to bank it, use it, pass it to an alt, pass it to a friend or guildmate, or auction it off in the chest has just as much right to that item as I have. So if an item goes up for roll I have a 9.1% chance of winning if eleven people roll on it, which in my opinion they certainly can. If some of those eleven are planning to pass it to someone else that does not lower my chance of winning, even though it does increase the other person’s chance of winning.

Not really.
If 4 people rolls, and 2 of them are planning to pass, you got 25% to win.
If all want to loot you also got 25% to win.
But if those not planning to pass wouldn't roll then your chance to win would be 50%.

mobrien316
05-22-2012, 01:35 PM
Not really.
If 4 people rolls, and 2 of them are planning to pass, you got 25% to win.
If all want to loot you also got 25% to win.
But if those not planning to pass wouldn't roll then your chance to win would be 50%.

I already explained that. I believe that everyone has the same right to roll on any item that I want to roll on. If I want it for my character who is in that raid, and someone else wants it so they can use it, bank it, pass it, or whatever, it doesn't matter to me. The person who is rolling just so they can pass it to a friend doesn't affect my chances any more or less than the person who is rolling so they can bank the item on the off-chance that someday they might TR into a class that can use the item, or the person who is rolling so they can auction it off in the chest if they win.

Believe me, I understand that some people get completely bent at the idea of proxy rolling. But it doesn't bother me when someone proxy rolls on an item I want and I don't care if people do it when I put something up for roll. Statistically, it doesn't affect my chances at all, and it actually improves my chances (infinitesimally) for future rolls because it means there is now one less person interested in the item I want.

Cyiwin
05-22-2012, 02:24 PM
If I kept going I'd just be repeating myself. Thanks all for your replies.

Vanquishedfo
05-22-2012, 03:03 PM
I must be missing something so please someone help me out. I don't understand how everyone is getting an equal chance with the current system.

12 people finish a raid.
6 are guilies
6 are random puggers

1 BTC item drops in the end chest

50% chance the item drops to a guildy meaning either he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 5 remaining guildies.
50% chance the item drops to one of the random puggers meaning he takes it or it goes to 1 of the 11 remaining members of the raid group.

As presented it's clear that everyone doesn't have an equal chance, so where is my mistake?

I think this post here of Cy's spells out thier views, and the flaws in thier thinking.

In the above example 1 named item dropped in the chest, and they view it as dropping for the entire party. It however did not. It dropped for a specific person, and there was equal chance it could have been there 12 times over for each person to pull out potentially. 11 people had bad luck and now one or more are feeling entitled to that one members luck. Luck is like that, when its good everyone wants it, when its bad your never more alone.

If the suggested changes ever took place it would actually reduce loot drop rates as only one copy of a given item would have a chance of spawning per group rather then per party member.

Tshober
05-22-2012, 09:59 PM
/not signed

Xynot2
05-23-2012, 09:18 AM
I would like this for BTC items only and they must show up in a common area and not associated with a member of the party. Then everyone who is interested can check a box next to the item and has an equal chance at getting it. The item becomes bound to the winner to weed out proxy rollers. No more internal guild passing sounds like a good idea to me.

EQ does this and it blows

SiliconScout
05-23-2012, 10:34 AM
If they were to do this then I would be even more interested in soloing.

Right now with Dungeon Scaling it makes more sense for me to solo even on Elite than group 9 times out of 10 (though I still group probably 7 times in 10).

Add this so that a named item just goes for a roll and I say forget it, I'll just solo and always get the item.

The way it works now is nice enough. We all get a chance and those who don't need it often (but not always) throw it up for a roll. Heck many times it's first to claim it gets it. This is far more fair when grouping.

/not signed.

danzig138
05-25-2012, 01:57 AM
What is broken has been brought up more than once.
No it hasn't.

I must be missing something
It's not often you see someone work so very hard to miss something. Blindfolded, turned around, and running the opposite direction kind of work.



Not signed.

fco-karatekid
05-25-2012, 02:08 AM
The only change I would like to see is if someone leaves something in the chest and finishes out of a raid, then the game would randomly assign it to someone still in the instance.

THIS I like.

Gauthaag
05-25-2012, 04:56 AM
The only change I would like to see is if someone leaves something in the chest and finishes out of a raid, then the game would randomly assign it to someone still in the instance.

yeah, that would be cool. it could solve all those misclicks on named raid loot and passing it to ppl already out of quest

KillEveryone
05-25-2012, 08:02 AM
Thought about it,

/not signed.

You already rolled for a chance at loot. Sometimes you get a good roll and a named item drops in your name.

I don't care if guildies want to pass to other guildies first.

I don't care if a friend wants to pass their loot to another friend.

I don't feel this is actually needed and won't really help anything.

Since I already rolled on the loot and won, I'll do with my loot as I wish.


The only change I would like to see is if someone leaves something in the chest and finishes out of a raid, then the game would randomly assign it to someone still in the instance.

This I can /sign, mostly because it is easy to misclick and assign a piece of loot to somoene that finished out already. Either that or anyone that finished out needs to have that name removed from the list of available people to transfer.

TDarkchylde
05-25-2012, 01:15 PM
The only change I would like to see is if someone leaves something in the chest and finishes out of a raid, then the game would randomly assign it to someone still in the instance.

This here? Signed times infinity. Raid loot should not just rot. That would also eliminate a possible source of griefing.

As for the suggestion in the OP? Not just no, but (censored) no. The game rolls for the players already. The player's being generous if they put it up for roll a second time because for whatever reason they don't want it (or can't take it in the case of exclusive raidloot.)

kitselli
05-25-2012, 02:03 PM
If you have named loot in a raid chest, a teleport lock is enforced until the item is taken or reassigned?

Nothing we can do if they DC...but under normal circumstances, just don't let them leave until named is claimed.

2cp
Kit