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ulticleo
05-01-2012, 08:31 AM
DISCLAIMER: I have a family and full time job and play 2-3 hours a night 4-5 nights a week, and maybe 5-6 hours on the weekend. I don't tr in 3 days, I don't use store bought xp elixirs, and I don't have 10 toons each on his 7th life. I nonetheless consider myself a decent player and have decent gear for the toons I have invested in.
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I love elite streaking. I've now capped one 2nd TR toon on a full elite steak (246), and another is at 18 with ~140 (skipped a lot of the low levels this time around in favour of higher xp/min)

However, I don't think it's good for the game.

I am also leveling a first life toon, and decided NOT to try to streak.

"if you don't want to do it, put up your own lfm with norm and IP". I do. and the end result is that I solo almost exclusively, or get a single first timer newb who tries to keep up.

"it's a choice, you don't have to". nope. but I keep getting tells asking me to change to elite. or people joining and
dropping when they realize they are illiterate and can't read lfms. minor annoyance, but annoyance nonetheless.

"the xp bonuses rock! don't take them away from me" I agree.

and in that vain, here is my suggestion:
remove elite streak from the game, keep the new 25/40/80 first time bonus and the bravery bonus (the static bonus for doing a quest for the very first time on hard or elite instead of norm)

add the following bonuses:
hard at level or lower: +10%
hard one level above: +5%
elite at level or lower: +20%
elite one level above: +10%

i.e. doing elite pit with max level 7 will give you +20%xp *every time*, not just the first time
doing gianthold tor hard max level 15 will give you +5%xp *every time*
etc.

there is still a good incentive to run elite (in fact, you should run them at level! none of this ***** 2 levels above :D), but there is no more worries about breaking streak. you can still farm norm, or hard, or elite, or do them all, etc.

Why am I suggesting this?

against my better judgement, I joined a LOD group yesterday. not a single TR in the group. From talk before entering the quest it becomes obvious that 4 of them are new to the game (2 rogues with <250hp at lvl 17, a fighter with ~350, and don't remember the 4th). the 5th guy and me are mostly silent. 2 of those have never ran the quest, and at least one has confessed to failing elite earlier. BUT they want to run elite. I say: hey guys, no offense, but this group can't handle elite, let's do hard. no one says anything, so I go in on hard. they drop group and reform. They invite me as well, but I decline and solo the quest on hard on my first lifer at level 16. I don't know how they faired, my guess is the final fight did them in if the traps didn't (even with their two rogues).

I then did an experiment. I joined a vale normal group that a monk put up. I grabbed ship buffs, and went into the vale to do slayer. 45 minutes later (according the to buff bar) there were 3 of us in the group, and no questing has happened. I dropped group and went to solo running with the devils. when I finished, I checked the lfm, and they had 5 players, and waiting for a healer.

elite streaking is awesome for vets, TRs, people who run in static groups/guild groups, etc. For new players I think it is the absolute worst thing to have been introduced to the game in the past 1 or 2 years. It creates a huge divide, it accentuates the differences between vets and newbs, and worst of all, it makes it nearly impossible for new players to find groups for normal questing.

so please. remove elite streaking (keep bravery bonus), but add other bonuses or incentives to run elite.

Postumus
05-01-2012, 09:02 AM
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I love elite streaking.

However, I don't think it's good for the game.



I disagree with the second statement.

Chai
05-01-2012, 09:42 AM
Copying my post from another thread on this same topic:

The bravery bonus is the best addition to DDO in a long time.

It in no way limits peoples gaming, because the old way of leveling a TR, (normal until your eyes bleed, 1 hard, 1 elite) was not affected. People are still capable of making groups to run whatever difficulty they want.

The issue is not how Turbine coded the game in this instance - the issue is the people themselves, expecting everyone else to lead so they can follow and join groups - but when alot of elite groups are up and they dont want to run elite, they will not put their own LFM up and run hard or normal. Instead, they come to the boards and complain about bravery bonus "ruining the game" - when nothing about the way we used to run was affected by it, other than the fact that people have to form their own groups and be their own advocate.

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Further addition:

The idea that bravery bonus changed the game for anyone who doesnt want to use it is a myth. Nothing changed about the way we used to level. If you still want to run normal a bunch of times, then hard once then elite once, go for it.

LFMs for normal and hard groups taking eons to fill is also a myth. I have been leveling a first life artificer disregarding the elite streak and bravery bonus altogether and never have an issue finding groups, or making groups when one is not up for the content I wish to run. Yeah, I have had people ask to run elite when I have "normal" or "hard" in the LFM, but I just inform them they joined a group that had the difficulty level already posted and thats what we're running. I am my own advocate when I lead groups, and because of that, I dont see these glaring issues people talk about on the forums.

I also dont consider not having a full group a bad thing for those difficulties. That vale group should have put IP (in progress) in the LFM and started the quests on normal. Theres no reason we absolutely must have a full group every time we step into quests.

Its about being your own advocate. If you want to wait for a full group before questing thats your decision, but I dont feel the game should be coded around those kinds of desires - especially after years and years of people complaining that its not solo-able enough. The game used to favor groups more before scaling and casual difficulty.

Monkey-Boy
05-01-2012, 09:43 AM
I disagree with the second statement.

Why?

danotmano1998
05-01-2012, 09:52 AM
I can say with absolute certainty, that while I love Bravery Bonus XP, it does in fact preclude me from joining a substantial number of PUGS.


*Sees LFM for quest I want to run*

Instead of jumping into that LFM quest I want to do, I look at the 4.3 million xp I need, the streak I currently have, and shake my head. Nope, not going to lose the streak until later. Much, much later.

Then I consider the dungeon scaling... If I go in solo, those elite traps will not kill me, and the mobs do 1/2 of the damage they normally would. If I put up or join a pug, that changes drastically.

Then I consider the extra xp that could be lost due to a death from a guy just trying to learn the game.

Hmmm. Let's see.

*Closes LFM window and runs solo or with a friend*

What's sad to me is I PREFER to group. Given an equal choice, I would PUG almost every quest. Yet the choices are not equal by a long shot.

herzkos
05-01-2012, 10:12 AM
agree with the OP. As with the other threads on bravery bonus bashing(alliteration ftw).

The reasons I agree have already been brought forth ad nauseum.

hiryuu42
05-01-2012, 10:31 AM
The issue is not how Turbine coded the game in this instance - the issue is the people themselves, expecting everyone else to lead so they can follow and join groups - but when alot of elite groups are up and they dont want to run elite, they will not put their own LFM up and run hard or normal. Instead, they come to the boards and complain about bravery bonus "ruining the game" - when nothing about the way we used to run was affected by it, other than the fact that people have to form their own groups and be their own advocate.

I agree that Bravery is okay in theory but, in practice, it has some very negative implications for the future of the game. There will always be a gap between new and experienced players, as there should be. Turbine should be careful how deep and wide that gap becomes, and how much they cater to one side or the other, or they risk losing one of those groups entirely.

Judging by your post count and join date, I suspect you know most of the quests and game mechanics well. Soloing or starting a group isn't a big deal for you.

For people new to the game, it's a problem. Starting a group means either leading it blind or adding "need guide" to the already "not elite" kiss of death. They don't know what the quest requires, so they may not have trap skills, Int or Wis for runes, etc. They also don't get any gear or tactic advice or other "welcome to the game" support. Meanwhile, they're bombarded with heaps of "elite, byoh, know it, tr, >1200 hp" LFMs, which just slaps them in the face with a gap that seems insurmountable.

Miow
05-01-2012, 10:40 AM
I agree with the op, there are obvious issues with this and to ignore them is foolish in the long run.

Chai
05-01-2012, 10:43 AM
I agree that Bravery is okay in theory but, in practice, it has some very negative implications for the future of the game. There will always be a gap between new and experienced players, as there should be. Turbine should be careful how deep and wide that gap becomes, and how much they cater to one side or the other, or they risk losing one of those groups entirely.

Judging by your post count and join date, I suspect you know most of the quests and game mechanics well. Soloing or starting a group isn't a big deal for you.

For people new to the game, it's a problem. Starting a group means either leading it blind or adding "need guide" to the already "not elite" kiss of death. They don't know what the quest requires, so they may not have trap skills, Int or Wis for runes, etc. They also don't get any gear or tactic advice or other "welcome to the game" support. Meanwhile, they're bombarded with heaps of "elite, byoh, know it, tr, >1200 hp" LFMs, which just slaps them in the face with a gap that seems insurmountable.

What you are pointing out existed LONG before the bravery bonus. Eliminating bravery bonus will NOT solve this problem.

This fear of starting new groups is being addressed with the new LFM panel. Theres no need to do away with bravery bonus to address that issue, as they are two completely separate issues. Before bravery bonus, the gap between experienced players and newbies was the same as it is now - vets who zerg plow quests for xp/min werent just rolling up groups with newbies who wanted to explore and play at their own pace.

The issues are not one and the same. Cats and dogs werent just living together all laa dee daa before bravery bonus existed. The vets were happy to form TR zerging groups and the newbies were happy to play together at their own pace. What changed? elite at level now = moar XP per quest. It does NOT = moar xp/min if elite cant be completed quickly however....and thats whats not being properly considered by those concerned with xp/min in the first place.

ulticleo
05-01-2012, 10:47 AM
The issue is not how Turbine coded the game in this instance - the issue is the people themselves etc.

I agree. the game didn't change, but how people run the game has changed.



The idea that bravery bonus changed the game for anyone who doesnt want to use it is a myth. Nothing changed about the way we used to level. If you still want to run normal a bunch of times, then hard once then elite once, go for it.

Here is where we disagree. I have no problem soloing, duoing, w/e. I've soloed elite in the demon's den, for instance. I have no problem jumping on my toon, put up IP lfm, and quest for the time that I have. If you have actually read my post you would have seen anecdotal evidence of what happens to norm LFMs. In contrast to my running with the devils norm, 14-17, byoh/IP lfm not getting a single hit in the 15 min or so that it took me to run it, 6 months ago it would have filled before I was done with buffing.

I've also soloed all 4 bosses in litany while my my lfm was up without a single click.

The reason is likely less the "normal", and more the 13-16 lvl range. most people are waiting until they are 2 levels above to run elite first time, and IF they run norm, they are then 2 levels above quest.



LFMs for normal and hard groups taking eons to fill is also a myth.

your experience. What server are you on, btw?



I dont see these glaring issues people talk about on the forums.

So others complain, but you don't see the issue, therefore, there is no issue? I am well aware I am not the first to bring this up (see the title of the thread...)
I posted the thread to add another "tick" in turbine's "maybe we should look at this after all" log book's aye column.



I also dont consider not having a full group a bad thing for those difficulties. That vale group should have put IP (in progress) in the LFM and started the quests on normal. Theres no reason we absolutely must have a full group every time we step into quests.

Nor do I. However, when I join someone else's group (rare, but last night was a deliberate experiment), I play by their rules. And while you and I have no problem putting byoh/ip lfms, the vast majority of new people do.



Its about being your own advocate. If you want to wait for a full group before questing thats your decision, but I dont feel the game should be coded around those kinds of desires

Nope. Nor should that kind of gameplay be sabotaged, which *I* feel it is by the streak.
let's see:
reasons to remove streak:
- hurts grouping for at level norm/hard
- which then makes it harder for newer people to find groups
- which could lead to them leaving the game.
- which would hurt game.
check.

reasons to NOT remove streak:
- reduce xp? not really. I proposed a different set of bonuses
- hurt grouping? nope
- hurt soloing? nope
- change the way people play? sure, but no more than introducing it did
- hurt someone's epeen for not being to post a 1000 elite streak SS? meh. we can still keep the streak, just remove the xp bonus.

ulticleo
05-01-2012, 10:55 AM
Cats and dogs werent just living together all laa dee daa before bravery bonus existed.

BTW, take a look at the first quote in your own signature... forum folks are 5% of the population. the game should be designed for 100% :D

*I* have no problem putting up at level norm lfm and soloing the quest, but a *new* player would sit for an hour waiting for a full group. And yes. I firmly believe that if you take away the bravery streak, *they* would not.

danotmano1998
05-01-2012, 11:11 AM
What you are pointing out existed LONG before the bravery bonus. Eliminating bravery bonus will NOT solve this problem..

Chai, I still think you're refusing to see the other side of this argument.
The bravery bonus influenced the LFM panel and the grouping dynamic.

There are lots of other people that agree that while they LOVE the XP boost, it is yet another link in a chain generally discouraging casual grouping. No, it doesn't eliminate it. No, it doesn't "ruin the game". It's just one more straw set on the growing pile. Granted, it's a small thing. Like the -10% you get for having someone along who dies accidentally. Or the dungeon scaling. Small straws that add up.

I know I'm not the only person who feels that these game mechanics discourage grouping.
I prefer to group, as I love the social aspect of the game. I will do so even with the negative social impacts of these systems.

Don't get me wrong, I love the bb xp. I just wish Turbine would have made the XP requirements for TR's lower, instead of having this convoluted system.

NostraVar
05-01-2012, 11:24 AM
Isn't the new auto-grouping supposed to alleviate this issue?

Memnir
05-01-2012, 11:40 AM
DISCLAIMER: I also have a family and play 2-3 hours a night 4-5 nights a week, and sometimes more/sometimes less on the weekend. I've never TR'd in 3 days, in fact I only have a single TR'd character. I don't use store bought xp elixirs. I also consider myself a decent player and have decent gear for the characters I have invested in.


Keep Elite Streak, please. It's added a challenging new aspect to a game that had been growing sale. It would be a shame to take the game a step back, when it has been such a great step forward. In my questionably-humble opinion, Bravery Bonus and the ability to build up the Streak was one of the best moves Turbine has made in several years - and certainly it's best one in the whole of 2011.

maddmatt70
05-01-2012, 11:47 AM
I agree with you OP in that elite streak creates another barrier to entrance for newer players. Then again would a newer player really have fun running with a bunch of vets. The elite streak is a nice change of pace, but the whole system should be tweaked again I think. I would bump up the normal bonus and reduce the elite bonus.

voodoogroves
05-01-2012, 11:50 AM
I'm torn.


I love the elite streak. I'm pseudo casual (family, time-limited) and have one multi-TR that I'm doing the full streak on, and others I'm leveling more haphazardly.

I love pushing myself. I have no problems admitting the few cases where I simply didn't care about keeping the streak full (looking at you Coyle ...) It's been a great way to hone my personal skills and game knowledge. I like doing the prep-work (at least on the full streaker) to make sure I've got everything I need to jump in and solo that quest or tackle that problem.

That said, the streak is sometimes overshadowing.

When I was running GH, my "side quests, full run, elite, IP" filled before I got to the first quest entrance.

The next day my "side quests, full run, hard, IP (already did elite for streak)" didn't fill. The normal set didn't either.


Kind of a bummer, as some of them can go quicker with a few more bodies ... and the whole time I thinking to myself "those poor sods who are trying to run them on normal for real ... how bad it must be for them".





Keep the streak. I wouldn't be against some tweaking though.

Systern
05-01-2012, 11:53 AM
Just to throw another anecdote on the campfire...

A couple of months ago, when I bought Path to Inspiration, I ran the dream conspiracy (I think, the one with the possessed insane people boss fight) on casual with a friend. When the 2nd friend who always ran with us logged in, we went to try it on normal. This was on my Artificer, my biggest character ever, so, not twinked, but at least it was a 32 point build. Anyway, when Friend2 joined, the suggestion was made to open it up to the puggers to fill out the group for a normal run.

1st person joins, a fighter. He immediately says "I just bought this pack and am looking forward to running it. Why not elite?"

A quick MyDDO lookup confirms that he's 28 point, untwinked, and even more ignorant of the quests than I (since I've done them exactly once before and at least read the wiki).

I say to him: "You're first life, have no gear, and no knowledge of this quest, and you want to run this elite?"

"Yea, I'm on a streak."

"You know that this is/was end game content, with some of the highest DC traps (to locate/disarm) in the game, right? Mobs that have mountains of HP. There's no caster in the group yet for instakills and crowd control."

"b,b,b,but Streak!"

"You know that there's more XP in the game in just wilderness areas to more than cap a first life toon, right?"

"But look at the size of my streak!"

"You know that once you hit cap, since you've hit all these quests as One-And-Done, you'll still be ungeared; not ready for Epic content, and hell, not even ready to raid efficiently."

"SSTTRREEAAKK!!!!!"

"You are not Elite. You are not Brave. You are a fool." *dismiss*




So, yea, unless tomorrow's patch can fix DDO's target demographic (people that the complexity of D&D appeals to, and see WoW as 'kiddie toon MMO')... The issue with the general Pug crowd will persist.



For those obsessed with streaking. You get more XP:Min by playing the game on normal, than waiting 3 hours for optimal conditions to complete elite.

Buggss
05-01-2012, 11:59 AM
I can see all sides to be honest but I think a little more flexibility with the breaking of a streak is needed.

I suggest doing a difficulty other than elite shouldn't break the streak but should penalize it instead but to the point it's still fairly significant a penalty.

Also I think the streak bonus needs stretching out to more then 5 to give the max bonus. Perhaps an extra 5% for each extra elite you do (or 2.5% for each hard) meaning it takes you 10 straight elites (or hards) to reach the maximum potential. However if you do something other than an elite you would drop your bonus by either 5 or 10% which would then require rebuilding to regain the maximum potential.

That way people would be able to use the streak bonus if they chose but if they saw an lfm for a quest they wanted that was on a lower difficulty setting they'd be able to join for that quest without adversely affecting the group and not lose the whole streak.

Also it seems popular to have a DISCLAIMER so:

Disclaimer: Yes I know it's called a streak and missing out one elite/hard means it isn't a streak but just change the name if it helps. :D Surely happy players are more important than keeping one word...

Ralmeth
05-01-2012, 12:01 PM
Don't get me wrong, I love the bb xp. I just wish Turbine would have made the XP requirements for TR's lower, instead of having this convoluted system.

I agree! I was thinking the same thing. +1

HatsuharuZ
05-01-2012, 12:13 PM
I think the problem is the vicious cycle of poor design decisions leading to predominance of the powergamer mentality, which in turn leads to more poor design decisions which which in turn leads to power creep and the horrors of... heh, I think I need to make a chart.

Does anyone here remember the days the Stalwart Defender and Defender of Siberys prestige enhancements gave you only up to +4 strength and consitution, +3 to saves, and a ridiculous movement speed penalty? That penalty alone made Knight of the Chalice and Kensai seem like the better deal, since they enhanced one's damage dealing ability without any penalties at all. Oh, don't forget about barbarians; they only have ONE prestige enhancement line and it's all about MOAR POWER!

In other words, I think that the enhancement system as it it currently implimented has forced classes into certain roles, which in turn distorts the player's views concerning the class. The prestige enhancements are so powerful that more often than not you are gimping your character by not taking them. That seems to me to be a bit of a problem.

ThePrincipal
05-01-2012, 12:13 PM
Instead of n/n/n/h/e it's e/h/n/n/n.

In the harbor or marketplace, that first e run can be a bit much for new players but otherwise it's not much of an issue.

Niv-mizzet
05-01-2012, 12:26 PM
I have some RL friends who recently started DDO, and have gotten to the mid-high level range as fighters. No silver flame favor, no crazy plat storage for gear, no +umd items to help them with wands, no tomes. Just fighters.

They can't seriously contribute in elite at level. And has been said over 9000 times, an lfm up for anything but elite fills about as fast as an abbot lfm that says 'first timer.'

So they have 2 choices, discounting all the ones that lead to not playing or not gaining xp:

1. Join elite groups, ride coattails. Try not to draw attention to the fact that its their first toon first life and first run on the quest. (Generally when we're all on, I throw up the elite lfm for a quest I know I can carry 5 soulstones through, invite both of them, and leave it up for 3 puggers, and tell them about the quest before-hand, but when I'm not on.....)

2. grab a hireling and try to figure the quest out alone, typically leading to 245720525 minute runs, and teaching them nothing whatsoever about other classes than their own. (and typically, they miss several optionals etc due to missing class abilities.)


The unwillingness to break streak has severely trounced peoples' abilities to fill lfm's for anything but elite. I myself have specifically not joined a group (that needed, and was waiting on my class) because it would've broken streak and I was in the middle of several good bravery xp quests (like around level 10-12) and losing my streak would've been a catastrophe. In pre-streak days, I would've just joined them and we woulda run that quest. Done.

What would I do about it if I was given the reins of power?

Remove streak. Make bravery a completely flat bonus with the same criteria as now. (I'm aware that it does already have a small flat bonus.) Make said flat bonus larger to make up for the missing streak bonus.

We don't need another qualifier to stop grouping. We already have "you need to be the right level range, the class we want, have the abilities we want, have the gear we want, need to be flagged, need to own the pack, need to not be a first timer, need to byoh..." With every single one of those qualifiers, you weed out possible group members. Some of it is necessary, yes, but we should really cut it down to just the necessary ones. Adding in that someone on streak won't join your normal run, or someone normal doesn't feel up to joining your elite bravery just stops even more people.

I like pugging, do it all the time. I'd like to see steps made to see to it that pugging stays an acceptable means of playing the game. (input unrelated rant on dungeon-scaling here.)

morticianjohn
05-01-2012, 12:30 PM
The issue is not how Turbine coded the game in this instance - the issue is the people themselves


I agree with most of what you've said. I haven't seen a huge issue filling groups for normal on any of my first life toons (or after I finish elite on my 3rd life toon). However, this statement always rubs me the wrong way anytime it's used. The idea that the problem is the user. When enough people start to complain about something then my thought process about it changes. I'm not saying that I'm going to change my mind but I'm going to think about the problem as it's presented.

If every new person who walked into my house tripped on my front step is this a problem with the step or with those people who should have been watching where they were going.

While I love the BB, the rash of complaints about it has really started to get me wondering. Is there something I am missing.

I do have one experience to share. I've already been through Reaver's Refuge on hard for BB but at a slow point in the evening last night there was an LFM up for elite reaver's refuge. When I joined they were talking about how they had failed at prey on the hunter but they wanted to try enter the kobold. I've reflex saves ~35 and evasion and there was another evasion toon (monk) along with a cleric, sorc, arti, and wiz. Apparently some were newerish and we even lost some to the ice trap. I personally had a ton of fun and we achieved victory in the end but it was a bad experience for others. One rage quit, cleric and wiz used pots and the sorc musta had an outrageous repair bill with probably 10+ deaths. We even took a DD back to the first shrine so you can imagine the amount of time the quest took to complete.

I tell you this story to say this.... the only reason we did elite was because of the BB. Before the BB this LFM would have been hard or normal. It certainly ruined someone's day (I'm sorry dude). Maybe those players will learn that they could level faster to do normal or hard but like the front step analogy those who come in and out all the time get used to the step there and won't trip but that doesn't mean it isn't a design flaw in the house.

Systern
05-01-2012, 12:57 PM
Another thought is that maybe it's not the mechanic, but the presentation...

Every quest you open, right there, front and center, is gold text about whether you're eligible for bravery bonus. Hey, I'm new, what's this bravery bonus thing? It must be important because they make sure it's right in the center of my field of vision...

How about if eligibility notification was just a green/empty checkbox at the start of the difficulty line?


Those that like their streaks have it, and those just learning the game don't have it forced down their throat so that they think it's important, and they have to have it.

A tooltip for the checkbox would be required:
"Your e-peen is currently 248 inches long."

At Turbines' discretion the words "e-peen" and "streak" may be interchanged, as well as "inches" and "quests".



Move the standard gold text explanation of how streaks work from the dungeon open dialog to the XP report log.

Chai
05-01-2012, 01:31 PM
your experience. What server are you on, btw?


I ran up the bard on orien. I ran up the arty on sarlona. I also play on thelanis.

"People dont join normal LFMS" is a myth. The real fact here is that people will not be their own advocate and put up their own LFM. They instead expect there to be LFMs up they can just join without having to lead.

This is not a Turbine issue. This is a player issue that cant be resolved by coding the game differently. DDO was around for 5 years sans bravery bonus, and these grouping issues you are talking about have always existed. They didnt just start recently, nor will they end if bravery bonus is removed. They will end when players become their own advocates of their own play experience and start putting up LFMs for what they want.

Your post seems to assume there are alot of people suffering from this, and if thats the case, for every one player that puts up an LFM for something other than a bravery streak run, 5 more benefit from it. If you are putting up "normal" LFMs and "no one" is joining, that tells us there isnt enough interest in running normal to warrant merrit to the suggestion of removing bravery bonus. Getting rid of bravery bonus will not casue more people to group. It will cause more people to solo plow normal runs due to heavy scaling trivializing content on that difficulty. This is what we had before the bravery bonus. We have solid evidence through the 5 year history of DDO when bravery did not exist and what the LFMs looked like during those times that removing bravery isnt going to make cats and dogs just start living together, when they never did in the first place.

BTW - I was in heavy opposition to dungeon scaling when that first happened - which is the REAL cause of the lack of grouping issue. Soloing normal difficulty is hilariously easy. I was piled on in multiple threads by people who felt the game needed to be made solo friendly. WHen normal and hard solo runs became autocompletion, alot of players stopped PUGing - especially the TR crowd. After dungeon scaling and before bravery, soloing normal runs was the best way to gain fast XP. This is what we will return to if bravery bonus is removed.

Varashad
05-01-2012, 01:32 PM
Bravery bonus is of no real concern to me. I can solo most content, and what I can't solo I don't usually bother with. There are exceptions; I like to run quests like Crucible, which I don't have the twitch skills for, Tear of Dhakaan, my toons have never had all the stats needed for all the tears, and Xorian Cipher, you just need four people for this, and these suck to try and run on quests under elite, because no one wants to break that precious streak.

I like the TCs idea; run content on elite for a 20% bonus at level. I've also read another one that I liked better even better, that made it so first life toons cannot run quests on elite until they've done normal, and then hard, even with an opener. Second life toons cannot run quests on elite until they clear hard. I feel this is a very good idea, since it will keep those overzealous brand new players from posting LFMs for the Pit when they have 75 hp, and need a guide. And a healer. And its in progress. And they all died. And need a rescue. Get where I'm going with this?

Niv-mizzet
05-01-2012, 01:48 PM
I've also read another one that I liked better even better, that made it so first life toons cannot run quests on elite until they've done normal, and then hard, even with an opener. Second life toons cannot run quests on elite until they clear hard

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

Please no. Never ever.

There are already enough qualifiers stopping people from (successfully) joining groups what with:


We already have "you need to be the right level range, the class we want, have the abilities we want, have the gear we want, need to be flagged, need to own the pack, need to not be a first timer, need to byoh..."

I would like to not have to also worry about whether my random pug joiners have done norm and hard already. I'll stick with carrying their soulstones and occasionally getting joined by someone else that's competent, thanks.

ulticleo
05-01-2012, 07:30 PM
"People dont join normal LFMS" is a myth. The real fact here is that people will not be their own advocate and put up their own LFM.

Again you are ignoring the fact that I have repeatedly said that I put up my own lfms regularly.
You've also not given a single reason to not remove the bravery streak, other than that you don't want to.

The only reason to not remove it is the xp bonus it gives. I have addressed that in my original post.

so let's switch the game. Why not, instead of yelling "don't remove streak", try to convince me that it has somehow made the game better in a way that cannot be accomplished in other ways (specifically, look at my first post and see my suggestion)? And again, please keep in my mind that I DO streak, solo, put up my own lfms, etc. but think that it hampers grouping for those who do wish to run norm or hard.

Silverleafeon
05-01-2012, 08:17 PM
Copying my post from another thread on this same topic:

The bravery bonus is the best addition to DDO in a long time.

It in no way limits peoples gaming, because the old way of leveling a TR, (normal until your eyes bleed, 1 hard, 1 elite) was not affected. People are still capable of making groups to run whatever difficulty they want.

The issue is not how Turbine coded the game in this instance - the issue is the people themselves, expecting everyone else to lead so they can follow and join groups - but when alot of elite groups are up and they dont want to run elite, they will not put their own LFM up and run hard or normal. Instead, they come to the boards and complain about bravery bonus "ruining the game" - when nothing about the way we used to run was affected by it, other than the fact that people have to form their own groups and be their own advocate.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Further addition:

The idea that bravery bonus changed the game for anyone who doesnt want to use it is a myth. Nothing changed about the way we used to level. If you still want to run normal a bunch of times, then hard once then elite once, go for it.

LFMs for normal and hard groups taking eons to fill is also a myth. I have been leveling a first life artificer disregarding the elite streak and bravery bonus altogether and never have an issue finding groups, or making groups when one is not up for the content I wish to run. Yeah, I have had people ask to run elite when I have "normal" or "hard" in the LFM, but I just inform them they joined a group that had the difficulty level already posted and thats what we're running. I am my own advocate when I lead groups, and because of that, I dont see these glaring issues people talk about on the forums.

I also dont consider not having a full group a bad thing for those difficulties. That vale group should have put IP (in progress) in the LFM and started the quests on normal. Theres no reason we absolutely must have a full group every time we step into quests.

Its about being your own advocate. If you want to wait for a full group before questing thats your decision, but I dont feel the game should be coded around those kinds of desires - especially after years and years of people complaining that its not solo-able enough. The game used to favor groups more before scaling and casual difficulty.Well written indeed...

voodoogroves
05-01-2012, 08:43 PM
Well written indeed...

It is, but it doesn't directly match my experience in this game or anywhere else for the first matter.

On the second, absolutely be your own advocate.


On the first, changing options and making some more rewarding does not inherently remove the old options for how to play. What it does do, and this holds when we're talking about the items on a value menu, traffic patterns, you name it ... is drive enough incentive to change community behavior.

Adding options to any system has the ability to alter the behavior of the populations involved ... without removing the old options. You can totally be your own advocate, and should regardless.


I mean, I can still run Mindsunder on Elite for a better shot at better items, right? It's not that much harder than casual, is it? That option still remains, right?


Non-bravery streak groups take longer to fill. That's my anecdotal experience, with the equally non-scientific sample size anyone suggesting differently has to draw from.

sirgog
05-01-2012, 08:49 PM
It is, but it doesn't directly match my experience in this game or anywhere else for the first matter.

On the second, absolutely be your own advocate.


On the first, changing options and making some more rewarding does not inherently remove the old options for how to play. What it does do, and this holds when we're talking about the items on a value menu, traffic patterns, you name it ... is drive enough incentive to change community behavior.

Adding options to any system has the ability to alter the behavior of the populations involved ... without removing the old options. You can totally be your own advocate, and should regardless.


I mean, I can still run Mindsunder on Elite for a better shot at better items, right? It's not that much harder than casual, is it? That option still remains, right?


Non-bravery streak groups take longer to fill. That's my anecdotal experience, with the equally non-scientific sample size anyone suggesting differently has to draw from.

Before Bravery new players got abused every time they died. This just does not happen now.

Under the old 'grind till your ears bleed' TR system I used to reform without people that died in really silly ways. Now? I just don't care because Bravery has removed the importance of the 10% no-deaths bonus.

ulticleo
05-01-2012, 09:30 PM
Before Bravery new players got abused every time they died. This just does not happen now.

Under the old 'grind till your ears bleed' TR system I used to reform without people that died in really silly ways. Now? I just don't care because Bravery has removed the importance of the 10% no-deaths bonus.

Again. PLEASE. read the original post. I am not asking for the streak to be removed and that's it. I am suggesting alternatives to replace the lost xp (and would be perfectly happy with other suggestions as well). Therefore, please come up with a better argument than "less xp"

What I am asking is to remove the incentive to NOT join groups.

Ungood
05-01-2012, 09:58 PM
I disagree with the second statement.

I agree with this Statement. :D

Ungood
05-01-2012, 10:01 PM
What I am asking is to remove the incentive to NOT join groups.

That would be called "Dungeon Scaling", just figured you might want to be burning the correct effigy.

Saravis
05-01-2012, 10:18 PM
If what you say is true and nobody wants to run normal/hard because of BB, then apparently BB is popular and your opinion is not.

If your opinion is the popular one and there are plenty of people who don't want BB, then apparently there are plenty of people who still want to run in normal/hard.

Either way BB is here to stay.

Enoach
05-01-2012, 10:57 PM
snip...

BTW - I was in heavy opposition to dungeon scaling when that first happened - which is the REAL cause of the lack of grouping issue. Soloing normal difficulty is hilariously easy. I was piled on in multiple threads by people who felt the game needed to be made solo friendly. WHen normal and hard solo runs became autocompletion, alot of players stopped PUGing - especially the TR crowd. After dungeon scaling and before bravery, soloing normal runs was the best way to gain fast XP. This is what we will return to if bravery bonus is removed.


Again. PLEASE. read the original post. I am not asking for the streak to be removed and that's it. I am suggesting alternatives to replace the lost xp (and would be perfectly happy with other suggestions as well). Therefore, please come up with a better argument than "less xp"

What I am asking is to remove the incentive to NOT join groups.

Dungeon scaling is the real reason many choose to run solo or duo over dealing with a group. Each quest is designed to be run by a group of 4. Anything less and the quest gets adjusted down. Anything more and the quest gets up.

The problem with Bravery Bonus is not with the mechanic of how it works, its with how its used. The problem is the "Cool Kids" run elite and so many have bought into that like sheep. With all of the bonus XP available even without XP potions/shrines/Tomes running the normal 9/h/e still nets a ton of XP per minute. I don't run a quest on a difficulty where I know I'll have a very high chance of failure, unless I'm doing it for fun - I still play the game haunted by the XP penalty days and remembering having less XP after a night of attempting stuff I shouldn't have than what I had two days ago.

What bravery bonus was intended for was to help the non-power gamer who only has time (or patience) to run a quest once.

We have to be are own advocates of what quests we run and at what difficulty level. We have to take that bull by the horn and stick with, ya sure Elite Streak is nice, but I'm not running this quest for you, I'm doing it for me and I want to run it on Normal. You can join me if you like otherwise form your own group.

I did my third life for my FvS only running elite for the Bravery Bonus. Several Quests I would only get one person to join me and we would just go to complete it - Helps when you are the one capable of being the Primary Healer. Got all the way up to the 240's. It was fun once, but honestly as a solo person pugging a lot I found maintaining a streak started to really wear on me from level 10 on because I had to lead the groups every night. Don't get me wrong I like leading, but sometimes you just want to follow once in awhile. I had more fun TR'ing my Paladin without the Streak and it took me less time, I found this was because I benefited from Streak bonus when I had it, and ran more quests because I wasn't worried about it.

If people could just replace the desire to WORK DDO and instead PLAY DDO I believe they would have more fun. When TR first happened and lots of ZERG Farming Groups started to form, people that were not of that mindset learned to survive outside of that mentality, we can do the same with Bravery Bonus.

Keep Bravery Bonus for those of us that enjoy running quests fewer times, and hopefully a Renascence will occur and people will come to realize they will have more fun not sticking with their Elite Streak, but actually questing.

morrok73
05-01-2012, 10:58 PM
1.Bravery bonus is not hurting anyone,as Chai said, it was one of the best things to happen to this game in a loooong time.

[QUOTE=Varashad;4430604]

I like the TCs idea; run content on elite for a 20% bonus at level. I've also read another one that I liked better even better, that made it so first life toons cannot run quests on elite until they've done normal, and then hard, even with an opener. Second life toons cannot run quests on elite until they clear hard. I feel this is a very good ideaQUOTE]

2.Please don't take away one of the very few reasons I still pay my sub.

Phemt81
05-01-2012, 11:03 PM
I have some RL friends who recently started DDO, and have gotten to the mid-high level range as fighters. No silver flame favor

Silver flame favor is overrrated on these forum, and i don't understand why.

If your friends started only recently they can't get any silver flame favor, since they are achieved only in ptp quests except in the demon's den, which is level 18.

To get the chance to use the potions you must realistically get to level 17, at least, since the sum of all adventure pack quests giving SF favors is 423.

So, there is no chance one can use them, as first timers, or in mide levels either.

Also, since those give embarassing penalty, if the wiki is right, the only class who should use them (melees) won't never be interested in doing so, since they would terribly nerf their dps.

An hireling is much better, more useful and way cheaper.

If i am missing something about these so awesome silver flame potions please enlight me.

sirgog
05-01-2012, 11:37 PM
Again. PLEASE. read the original post. I am not asking for the streak to be removed and that's it. I am suggesting alternatives to replace the lost xp (and would be perfectly happy with other suggestions as well). Therefore, please come up with a better argument than "less xp"

What I am asking is to remove the incentive to NOT join groups.

Dungeon scaling is the thing that kills grouping.

When I can solo elite Amrath at speed (Sins and New Invasion anyway) and can skip shrines and pull 20+ mobs at a time, but then will die to six or seven hits on 6-player elite and be unable to land spells much at all - something is very wrong.

When a second person enters a quest, I go from taking 52% of base damage to 72%. (Source: Testing the self-inflicted damage from Twisted Talisman procs). Traps go from killing me in three failed saves to killing in two. And actual hitpoint loss per 30 damage hit taken goes from ~17 (after Lich form procs, Conc-Opp and Demonic Shield) to ~29. And mobs save noticeably more and have a few more hitpoints.

Go to six, and I'm taking 120% of base damage. 60 HP lost per hit on average in Amrath elites. Traps kill in one hit. Mobs save against almost everything. SP doesn't last because of the near-inability to torc up.


And people wonder why it's hard to find a group?

Gunga
05-01-2012, 11:42 PM
yet another "no" to yet another "remove elite streak" thread

Bacab
05-01-2012, 11:49 PM
yet another "no" to yet another "remove elite streak" thread

tl:dr

Autolycus
05-01-2012, 11:58 PM
My experience agrees with the OP.

We have a new guildie who wanted to run everything on elite, even though we told him it was a bad idea. He wouldn't listen tried several runs. After dying every time, we finally convinced him it was better to run normal or hard.

McFlay
05-02-2012, 12:05 AM
I'd have to agree with the crowd who recognizes scaling as the issue. Pretty much all quests now up til the mid level range, if you have twink gear on a tr, you can absolutely annihilate them on elite, so why bother wasting time finding a group when most content up to the mid level range amounts to a 15 minute or less zerg. You don't even need a trapper now thanks to scaling. Those traps that used to pwn your lowbie in a couple hits, you can now go afk to grab a drink while standing in them and not die. Heals? Why? Everything dies in 1 or 2 hits and hits you for 3 damage. Scaling is totally stupid. Worst addition to the game since dots.

Here is a better solution to things, that will also fix the constant flow of people crying about guild decay. When a new account is registered, they automatically default to a noob server. They have to play on this server until they TR a toon, at which point they can transfer that toon to a different server, and have the option to create toons on any server they want. This server will be like a noob paradise. Everyone will run things on casual and normal, and think you are psychotic if you want to do a hard run, and wonder why turbine even bothered putting an elite difficulty in.

In addition it would also encourage an environment of experimenting, learning, and exploring the game. They wouldn't join a quest group just to have a veteran zerg through it in 6 minutes before they even realize whats going on, and they wouldn't constantly post things like "first timer looking for guide." Instead it would be "first timer running casual."

It would also alleviate the amount of complaining that goes on about guild decay. That casual player thats been playing for 3 years and still hasn't managed to cap a toon won't be crying about not getting into a high level active guild anymore, because he'd still be on the server full of other casual players and noobs.

Ive been playing for about 2 years now, and the game has done nothing but get easier and easier. You can only cater to whiney noobs so much before everyone else just gets bored. Maybe its just my biased view but it seems like a huge majority of the people I come into contact with in game have been playing for a year+. Would it really be that bad to scale more portions of the game towards that crowd, then to scale the game to first life noobs who are concerned with elite streaks?

Lalangamena
05-02-2012, 12:14 AM
dungeon scaling is the real issue here.

but I got neg repped so much for pointing on the elephant in the room in a different thread , i am not going into this again.

Habreno
05-02-2012, 01:08 AM
Here is a better solution to things, that will also fix the constant flow of people crying about guild decay. When a new account is registered, they automatically default to a noob server. They have to play on this server until they TR a toon, at which point they can transfer that toon to a different server, and have the option to create toons on any server they want. This server will be like a noob paradise. Everyone will run things on casual and normal, and think you are psychotic if you want to do a hard run, and wonder why turbine even bothered putting an elite difficulty in.


Only comment is some people don't want to TR their first toon. Let them unlock the server transfer upon hitting cap and acquiring 20 Epic Dungeon Tokens (the cost of a true heart)

HarveyMilk
05-02-2012, 02:40 AM
The real solution imho is to remove dungeon scaling, and scale the difficulties as follows:

Elite - like a 6-man party now, for all party sizes
Hard - like a 5-man party now, for all party sizes
Normal - like a 3-man party now, for all party sizes
Casual - like a 3-man party now, for all party sizes

This way elite is always elite, hard is hard, etc...

This way, everyone would be pugging elite quests because soloing to keep your bravery bonus would be much more difficult.

Edit: Wow, just realized sirgog posted almost this exact same suggestion recently. It really is a good idea, lol

Flavilandile
05-02-2012, 02:55 AM
I am also in agreement with the OP.

The actual suggestion is not far from what was in game, long ago, when we had a real death penalty.

Actually the bonuses for doing quests above your level from the OP suggestions are way lower than what used to be possible ( IIRC it was +10% per level, up to 40 or 50% ).

There was no streak to break by doing a normal quest at your level and it was actually challenging doing Madstone normal with a LVL 8 or 9 Character ( yes, they did introduce the lock out in Gianthold because of that, among other things ).

CodyGenX
05-02-2012, 04:44 AM
I'd have to agree with the crowd who recognizes scaling as the issue. Pretty much all quests now up til the mid level range, if you have twink gear on a tr, you can absolutely annihilate them on elite, so why bother wasting time finding a group when most content up to the mid level range amounts to a 15 minute or less zerg. You don't even need a trapper now thanks to scaling. Those traps that used to pwn your lowbie in a couple hits, you can now go afk to grab a drink while standing in them and not die. Heals? Why? Everything dies in 1 or 2 hits and hits you for 3 damage. Scaling is totally stupid. Worst addition to the game since dots.

Here is a better solution to things, that will also fix the constant flow of people crying about guild decay. When a new account is registered, they automatically default to a noob server. They have to play on this server until they TR a toon, at which point they can transfer that toon to a different server, and have the option to create toons on any server they want. This server will be like a noob paradise. Everyone will run things on casual and normal, and think you are psychotic if you want to do a hard run, and wonder why turbine even bothered putting an elite difficulty in.

In addition it would also encourage an environment of experimenting, learning, and exploring the game. They wouldn't join a quest group just to have a veteran zerg through it in 6 minutes before they even realize whats going on, and they wouldn't constantly post things like "first timer looking for guide." Instead it would be "first timer running casual."

It would also alleviate the amount of complaining that goes on about guild decay. That casual player thats been playing for 3 years and still hasn't managed to cap a toon won't be crying about not getting into a high level active guild anymore, because he'd still be on the server full of other casual players and noobs.

Ive been playing for about 2 years now, and the game has done nothing but get easier and easier. You can only cater to whiney noobs so much before everyone else just gets bored. Maybe its just my biased view but it seems like a huge majority of the people I come into contact with in game have been playing for a year+. Would it really be that bad to scale more portions of the game towards that crowd, then to scale the game to first life noobs who are concerned with elite streaks?

Its evil and I like it :D. . . But Ive also a soft spot for newbs :(, and it also doesnt allow me to torment them by saying stuff like "Youve not earned the honor of being in the presence of a omnipotent being like myself, begone nOOb".

Ungood
05-02-2012, 07:26 AM
The problem with Bravery Bonus is not with the mechanic of how it works, its with how its used. The problem is the "Cool Kids" run elite and so many have bought into that like sheep.

A this is the Real problem in a nutshell.


If people could just replace the desire to WORK DDO and instead PLAY DDO I believe they would have more fun. When TR first happened and lots of ZERG Farming Groups started to form, people that were not of that mindset learned to survive outside of that mentality, we can do the same with Bravery Bonus.

Bingo! The problem is not the game Mechanic at this point.


Keep Bravery Bonus for those of us that enjoy running quests fewer times, and hopefully a Renascence will occur and people will come to realize they will have more fun not sticking with their Elite Streak, but actually questing.

Exactly!

Ziindarax
05-02-2012, 07:51 AM
Again you are ignoring the fact that I have repeatedly said that I put up my own lfms regularly.
You've also not given a single reason to not remove the bravery streak, other than that you don't want to.

The only reason to not remove it is the xp bonus it gives. I have addressed that in my original post.

so let's switch the game. Why not, instead of yelling "don't remove streak", try to convince me that it has somehow made the game better in a way that cannot be accomplished in other ways (specifically, look at my first post and see my suggestion)? And again, please keep in my mind that I DO streak, solo, put up my own lfms, etc. but think that it hampers grouping for those who do wish to run norm or hard.

Bravery Bonuses have made the game considerably more accessible to those who prefer to have lives, IMO.

Back when I first started playing 2-3 years ago, I'd heard of players who would quit the game because they felt over-burdened by the tremendous EXP requirements that accompanied third-life+ characters. Now, with the elite streaks, the game is much, much more casual-friendly toward Legend-builds.

The only other way to expedite faster leveling is to spend money and/or try to be on while exp is being boosted during an event.

However, I agree that Bravery Bonus has harmed grouping to some extent, but this is largely in relation to player mindset, not the mechanic - for I have left numerous groups that wanted to do a quest I had not done yet on a difficulty beneath elite, or who were one or more levels higher than that of the quest on elite. Had this bonus not existed, I would be much less picky than I currently am (there are simply too many packs that offer excellent exp with the streaks that I cannot really afford to break my streak at any point).

Gizeh
05-02-2012, 08:32 AM
Here is a better solution to things, that will also fix the constant flow of people crying about guild decay. When a new account is registered, they automatically default to a noob server. They have to play on this server until they TR a toon, at which point they can transfer that toon to a different server, and have the option to create toons on any server they want. This server will be like a noob paradise. Everyone will run things on casual and normal, and think you are psychotic if you want to do a hard run, and wonder why turbine even bothered putting an elite difficulty in.

Have you considered that people tend to stay on a server on which they meet gaming buddies? Thus the "noob server" would be the only server getting new players who will stay there even after they TR. Meanwhile the other servers slowly lose members or at best stay at their current size. Thus over time the problem would simply be moved to a different server.

So how about creating a "leet server" for those players who only want to run with the best? If it were based on your model everyone who TRs is automatically transferred there.

But either way I don't think that segregation based on game experience would solve any problems - besides you ignored the fact that there are excellent players who never TR'd and also "noobs with wings".


Ive been playing for about 2 years now, and the game has done nothing but get easier and easier. You can only cater to whiney noobs so much before everyone else just gets bored. Maybe its just my biased view but it seems like a huge majority of the people I come into contact with in game have been playing for a year+. Would it really be that bad to scale more portions of the game towards that crowd, then to scale the game to first life noobs who are concerned with elite streaks?

The game doesn't get easier, you become more experienced in how the game works, you learn how the quests work, and you acquire better gear. To someone who just started his first character the game is just as hard as it was for you when you started.

morticianjohn
05-02-2012, 08:38 AM
For those who point the finger at dungeon scaling


I don't think you're wrong necessarily, in fact I have been in favor of removing dungeon scaling for the elite difficulty for some time (although harveymilk's or sirgog's suggestion is probably a better compromise). I will say this, anytime the following statement is made:

The problem is not "this thing" it's the people who are using "this thing" and they are doing it wrong.

I take notice. If enough people see a problem with "this thing" sometimes it's not the people who need to change. Not to say that the crowd is always right, it's just that there are some very biased posts in favor of BB. Just to be a little more objective and see through someone else's eyes. From my perspective the vets and players who can solo anything even with 5 soulstones are greatly enjoying the BB but some of the middling players are getting a different feel from the grouping that isn't meshing well with their abilities and/or playstyle. Changing dungeon scaling might help but note that without any changes to dungeon scaling "something" has changed in the grouping panel which is making it difficult for those players. I find it a small stretch to point to dungeon scaling as the culprit in this case however, I'm totally in favor of changing the dungeon scaling and maybe we'll see if it helps those players who have been negatively impacted by the introduction of bravery bonus.

Calebro
05-02-2012, 08:51 AM
The real solution imho is to remove dungeon scaling, and scale the difficulties as follows:

Elite - like a 6-man party now, for all party sizes
Hard - like a 5-man party now, for all party sizes
Normal - like a 3-man party now, for all party sizes
Casual - like a 3-man party now, for all party sizes

This way elite is always elite, hard is hard, etc...

This way, everyone would be pugging elite quests because soloing to keep your bravery bonus would be much more difficult.

Edit: Wow, just realized sirgog posted almost this exact same suggestion recently. It really is a good idea, lol

Dungeon scaling ends at party size 4. If you have a 5th or 6th member, they are only helping ease the pain. It would make more sense then, with that knowledge, to make causal=1, normal=2, hard=3, and elite=4

McFlay
05-02-2012, 09:09 AM
Have you considered that people tend to stay on a server on which they meet gaming buddies? Thus the "noob server" would be the only server getting new players who will stay there even after they TR. Meanwhile the other servers slowly lose members or at best stay at their current size. Thus over time the problem would simply be moved to a different server.

So how about creating a "leet server" for those players who only want to run with the best? If it were based on your model everyone who TRs is automatically transferred there.

But either way I don't think that segregation based on game experience would solve any problems - besides you ignored the fact that there are excellent players who never TR'd and also "noobs with wings".

So just stay on the noob server, nothing would be preventing you.



The game doesn't get easier, you become more experienced in how the game works, you learn how the quests work, and you acquire better gear. To someone who just started his first character the game is just as hard as it was for you when you started.

I think we must be playing a different game. There has been so much power creep just in the two years I've been playing. Just looking at gear, there is so much more/better gear available then there was 2 years ago. There is a lot of new named loot for all level ranges, as well as crafting making "random" loot ridiculously easy to obtain. Melees can acquire metalline/pure good boss beaters for a fraction of what they costed prior to crafting, and casters can get good casting gear for next to nothing. Lots of prestige enhancements have been added to the game and less useful ones improved upon. New classes have introduced new buffs to the game, as well as existing classes getting new spells. Tomes of learning now make leveling a lot easier, and dungeon scaling makes a lot of content a total joke.

Sure I'll agree part of why the game seems easier is game knowledge, but saying the game hasn't gotten any easier is just pure ignorance.

Fensen
05-02-2012, 02:15 PM
I have a love/hate relationship with the bravery bonus. Who would not like taking 35,000 xp for completing Coal Chamber on elite? However, I do not like the way it has made posting an lfm for anything but elite a nearly pointless exercise. I particularly notice this with the Vale quests. After having run them the first time, I will want to repeat them on normal for materials and xp and would like to group up to make the runs easier/faster/more fun. Well, good luck getting any hits at all on your normal level 16-18 lfm. Or, get ready for all of the tells asking that you bump it up to elite.

Perhaps a solution would be to award some additional xp bonus (such as suggested by the OP) for completing any quest the first time you run it on elite while still in the same 2 level range. That way the quest need not be run on elite the first time it is run, nor does a player have to worry about breaking a streak since the elite run can be made at a player's discretion.