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Adrian-Korvedzk
04-27-2012, 12:54 PM
One issue I have with stunning fist is not being able to use it while wielding monk weapons, more specifically, Kamas and Quarterstaves. I just don't understand it. It's not like I'm asking for a unique animation here, I'd just like for my Dual Kama wielding light monk to be able to make use of a feat that's required for her build. Thought?

Also, if this was posted anytime recently, then my Search-Fu is weak.

sebastianosmith
04-27-2012, 01:31 PM
This has been brought up many times. The reasoning behind the restriction is that it's a stunning "fist" - Not a stunning "slice" or stunning "whack".

If you want to go the flavor route with your monk that's the price you must pay. Wraps will always provide better damage in the long run in addition to stunning fist.

Adrian-Korvedzk
04-27-2012, 02:01 PM
Maybe I'm spoiled from tabletop, where flavor builds are still successful...

A monk could use stunning fist, even while weilding a Qstaff or kama(or two).

XL_Jockey
04-27-2012, 02:27 PM
Maybe in homebrew campaigns you could use it with weapons, but the feat states "unarmed attack" in the 3.5 PhB.

Adrian-Korvedzk
04-27-2012, 02:36 PM
Maybe in homebrew campaigns you could use it with weapons, but the feat states "unarmed attack" in the 3.5 PhB.


It also states that a monk may make unarmed attacks while wielding monk weapons.

SiliconScout
04-27-2012, 04:16 PM
Been playing my monk a lot lately (Turbine lied and said he'd get big guild renow bonuses... LOL) anyway I don't see the need for Stunning Fist to work with any weapon.

My Monk is 12th and I can't imagine a staff or Kama combo that I would rather be using over his unarmed attacks.

That said it is called Stunning Fist.... I suspect the Fist is there for a reason.

SiliconScout
04-27-2012, 04:18 PM
It also states that a monk may make unarmed attacks while wielding monk weapons.

Yes but that is not making the unarmed attack WITH the monk weapon, basically he's tossing an elbow, kick, headbutt whatever into the mix.

At least that is how I always interpreted this.

HGM-Chi
04-27-2012, 05:12 PM
This has been brought up many times. The reasoning behind the restriction is that it's a stunning "fist" - Not a stunning "slice" or stunning "whack".

If you want to go the flavor route with your monk that's the price you must pay. Wraps will always provide better damage in the long run in addition to stunning fist.

While it is called "fist" the idea is that a monk could choose to deliver a "stunning fist" blow with an elbow, foot, knee or head if they wanted. That's how it works in pen and paper anyhow. In fact a monk could be holding their buddy's greatsword in one hand, their other buddy's falchion in the other and still deliver a flurry of blows, all of them attempting a stunning fist.


Maybe in homebrew campaigns you could use it with weapons, but the feat states "unarmed attack" in the 3.5 PhB.

No, even in RAW you can do this, for exactly the reason you just stated. It requires an unarmed attack, a monk makes "unarmed attacks" with any part of their body even if their hands are full.

The flaw for DDO is that a monk doesn't get armed strikes/flurry etc while wielding anything else.

Uska
04-27-2012, 05:17 PM
It also states that a monk may make unarmed attacks while wielding monk weapons.

I believe you used flurry of blows with monk weapons not unarmed attacks but I couild be wrong easily

Adrian-Korvedzk
04-27-2012, 05:55 PM
I believe you used flurry of blows with monk weapons not unarmed attacks but I couild be wrong easily

Either armed with monk weapons or unarmed, depending on player's thoughts. RAW and RAI, Flurry works with both Monk weapons and Unarmed, can be all weapons, all unarmed, any mix of the two, and Quivering Palm or Stunning Fist could be thrown into that mix, either as a lead in or a finisher.

Also, for nay sayers about it being "fist", have you held a staff or kama in this life? To hold it kind of requires one to make a fist...

sebastianosmith
04-27-2012, 06:06 PM
Also, for nay sayers about it being "fist", have you held a staff or kama in this life? To hold it kind of requires one to make a fist...

Yep. I've held just about every kind of weapon ever made in one form or another. Doesn't make any difference to this argument. The only thing that counts is how the Devs coded it to work. That, by the way, was with a FIST. How you'd like it work or how is works in P&P is not relevant.

And if you ever hit something with your "fist" made from gripping a quarterstaff, you'll learn to not do it again.

Postumus
04-27-2012, 06:13 PM
How you'd like it work or how is works in P&P is not relevant.

I think it is relevant to question coding choices and game mechanic choices that differ from PnP. This game is based on PnP and a lot of people, myself included, wouldn't be playing it if it were not.

That's not to say everything should be exactly the same, but I think it is fine for players to question certain choices and make their suggestions in the forums. The devs seem to modify things in the game or reverse coding decisions based on player feedback. This is just more player feedback.



And if you ever hit something with your "fist" made from gripping a quarterstaff, you'll learn to not do it again.

Ain't that the truth.

Adrian-Korvedzk
04-27-2012, 06:18 PM
I think it is relevant to question coding choices and game mechanic choices that differ from PnP. This game is based on PnP and a lot of people, myself included, wouldn't be playing it if it were not.

I'm one of these people. If it does get to the point of being WoWjr in Eberron, I'll go back, dust off my old server comp, and start hosting another NWN server.


And if you ever hit something with your "fist" made from gripping a quarterstaff, you'll learn to not do it again.

I'll admit to making that mistake once. >.<;

QuantumFX
04-27-2012, 07:19 PM
It also states that a monk may make unarmed attacks while wielding monk weapons.

Here’s what you’re looking for:


When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

It’s also worth mentioning that “Unarmed Attack” doesn’t particularly mean “fists”. You see, martial artists tend to use theses amazing weapons called “feet”. ;)

Edit: Ah, What the heck!

Unarmed Strike At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Ravoc-DDO
04-28-2012, 05:47 AM
Making unarmed feats & bursted tod rings work on all monk centered weapons would certainly help though. They already lack dps over wraps and could use a boost. This is especially true for WSS which requires an additional feat investment on top.

hwarchild
04-28-2012, 06:35 AM
Excellent suggestion and as you've pointed out is consistent with pnp. Slightly helps the gimped non-wraps monks and adds the possiblity for a little more diversity in character development.

Kinerd
04-28-2012, 02:49 PM
Yep. I've held just about every kind of weapon ever made in one form or another. Doesn't make any difference to this argument. The only thing that counts is how the Devs coded it to work. That, by the way, was with a FIST. How you'd like it work or how is works in P&P is not relevant.

And if you ever hit something with your "fist" made from gripping a quarterstaff, you'll learn to not do it again.Fact: Ric Flair is universally regarded as the greatest monk of all time.
Fact: I seen Ric Flair hit someone with a fist made from gripping a roll of quarters, or possibly done seen, and he seemed to suffer no ill effect, although he did start bleeding profusely.
Fact: A roll of quarters is at least as effective a weapon as a quarterstaff.
Lemma: Canadian quarters are ferromagnetic. Bring a magnet the next time you get a roll of quarters from the bank to prevent future disappointment.
Conclusion: WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

To the actual topic, I am torn. On the one hand, anything that discourages monks from using kamas or quarterstaves is a very good thing, because they are such terrible weapons. On the other hand, if a monk nevertheless decides to use them, perhaps they should not be penalized to such an extreme degree. On J'onn J'onzz' third hand, I am extremely leery of Turbine touching monks (and therefore handwraps) in any way, or even glancing at them, or even devoting a thought in passing to them. We've only just got them working pretty much right, it would be terribly frustrating to spoil it.

Troubadour33
04-28-2012, 03:22 PM
And if you ever hit something with your "fist" made from gripping a quarterstaff, you'll learn to not do it again.

I laughed. That is all.

Postumus
04-28-2012, 06:12 PM
Fact: Ric Flair is universally regarded as the greatest monk of all time.


You wanna be the monk, you gotta BEAT the monk! Woooooooooo!

Adrian-Korvedzk
04-28-2012, 09:16 PM
Once I can rep, I'll be repping the lot of y'all.

I do like how the discussion went thus far, and I see good points on both sides. But I'mma stick to my guns and still want to be able to use Stunning fist and other monk strikes, while wielding monk weapons. On the flipside, I kind of want turbine to forget they implemented monks, because it seems every time they look this way, something breaks. >.<

hwarchild
04-28-2012, 09:58 PM
And if you ever hit something with your "fist" made from gripping a quarterstaff, you'll learn to not do it again.

I agree this is amusing, but

1) We're not talking about me. We're talking about a fantasy monk who likely pierces adamantine dr with their bare hands. If they can punch an iron golem to death, I think they can take this.

2) Just because a qstaff is a 2 handed weapon, does not mean one must constantly have 2 hands on it. It is not far fetched to assume somewhere in their flurry of blows these martial arts masters simply hold their qstaff in one hand enabling an unarmed punch with their other fist.

I'm still firmly in the "this should be enabled" camp. The only argument against seems to be that kamas are somehow not quite weak enough exotics.

Adrian-Korvedzk
04-29-2012, 02:43 PM
I don't see how the Kamas could be much weaker, I mean, they're what? A d6? Or am I mistaken. The Khopesh is an exotic, yet seems to be everybody's favorite weapon/weapon of choice(for reasons I don't quite understand).

dredre9987
04-29-2012, 02:46 PM
I don't see how the Kamas could be much weaker, I mean, they're what? A d6? Or am I mistaken. The Khopesh is an exotic, yet seems to be everybody's favorite weapon/weapon of choice(for reasons I don't quite understand).

Base dmg + crit profile

DethTrip
04-30-2012, 09:39 AM
The problem I see is that if you are holding a stunning +10 weapon, the bonus implies that you are using the weapon to do the stunning, not releasing one hand and throwing a stunning fist. Also, if you were to allow this, you would have to allow touch of death to work with weapons as well, imo, to be fair. I personally would love to see both happen. It would certainly help to bring weak monk weapons up to par with wraps and the rest of the other dps classes.

Pank
04-30-2012, 09:50 AM
The problem I see is that if you are holding a stunning +10 weapon, the bonus implies that you are using the weapon to do the stunning, not releasing one hand and throwing a stunning fist. Also, if you were to allow this, you would have to allow touch of death to work with weapons as well, imo, to be fair. I personally would love to see both happen. It would certainly help to bring weak monk weapons up to par with wraps and the rest of the other dps classes.

Not applying the bonus from a weapon to astunning fist attack would be like... not applying the +5 bonus from a certain belt (acquired in the challenges) to it unless you wield it in your hand currently.

It is not about logic as we are tacking about magicaly imbued items that send a pulse of energy through your body... or whatever they do. It is all about implementation decisions and coding, and thus up to the dev team to decide.

Adrian-Korvedzk
04-30-2012, 11:25 AM
Not applying the bonus from a weapon to astunning fist attack would be like... not applying the +5 bonus from a certain belt (acquired in the challenges) to it unless you wield it in your hand currently.

It is not about logic as we are tacking about magicaly imbued items that send a pulse of energy through your body... or whatever they do. It is all about implementation decisions and coding, and thus up to the dev team to decide.

I'm going to go with a little of this. Too much tabletop has gotten me to the point of answering the following, and others similar to it, in a very simple, specific way.

The question? "How'd you do 'x'?"

"Magic."

"What?"

"Magic." *walk away*

Postumus
04-30-2012, 11:38 AM
I agree this is amusing, but

1) We're not talking about me. We're talking about a fantasy monk who likely pierces adamantine dr with their bare hands. If they can punch an iron golem to death, I think they can take this.


Excellent point.



2) Just because a qstaff is a 2 handed weapon, does not mean one must constantly have 2 hands on it. It is not far fetched to assume somewhere in their flurry of blows these martial arts masters simply hold their qstaff in one hand enabling an unarmed punch with their other fist.


I'm sold. At first I agreed with another poster regarding the Stunning (or whatever) weapon bonus the staff might have shouldn't carry over to the stunning fist, but someone else made a good point about the Spare Hand belt, so now I think having the stunning bonus of a staff carry over to the stunning fist is fine.

RobbinB
05-01-2012, 12:46 PM
The problem I see is that if you are holding a stunning +10 weapon, the bonus implies that you are using the weapon to do the stunning, not releasing one hand and throwing a stunning fist. Also, if you were to allow this, you would have to allow touch of death to work with weapons as well, imo, to be fair. I personally would love to see both happen. It would certainly help to bring weak monk weapons up to par with wraps and the rest of the other dps classes.

How do you rationalize that in DDO a stunning +x weapon held in the offhand applies that bonus to all attacks made, even those made from the main hand weapon?

DethTrip
05-01-2012, 02:01 PM
Not applying the bonus from a weapon to astunning fist attack would be like... not applying the +5 bonus from a certain belt (acquired in the challenges) to it unless you wield it in your hand currently.

It is not about logic as we are tacking about magicaly imbued items that send a pulse of energy through your body... or whatever they do. It is all about implementation decisions and coding, and thus up to the dev team to decide.


How do you rationalize that in DDO a stunning +x weapon held in the offhand applies that bonus to all attacks made, even those made from the main hand weapon?

OK OK, just give me my stunning +10 belt already. Make sure it has holy burst and lightning strike too.