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View Full Version : More low level F2P content that aren't actually sewers.



TekkenDevil
04-21-2012, 01:40 PM
I know there's a bunch of stuff like Cerulean Hills and Searing Heights, but it's just not enough.
Literally everyone I tried to get into DDO has complained about and quit mainly because all we ever did was run around in sewer levels.

Sewers in video games have a heavy dogma on them in general. One has to wonder how many new players DDO had lost because of having to rotor root the pipes 24/7 due to being lowly F2P peasants.

karnokvolrath
04-21-2012, 02:01 PM
I agree, the harbor is very mundane to a new player.

I have had many friends try this game and get bored early because of this.

I tell them to wait and that better monster will be soon. Still, the kobald/sewer quest are overly used to the point of mind numbing.

There really needs to be two level 1/2/3 quests added that can show more of what this game has to offer.

I garentee its costs you players.

EnjoyTheJourney
04-21-2012, 02:22 PM
Very good idea = /signed

There is another issue, though, that will turn off many, many newer players. If you step out of the sewers to head outdoors, invisible enemies with trip attacks--apparently with a high respawn rate--are spread through various areas in Cerulean Hills.

Invisible enemies *or* enemies with trip attacks seem fine. But, why have invisible enemies with trip attacks *and* a high respawn rate in a level 2 outdoor map? Who thought that would do anything other than frustrate players who are still trying to figure out which way to point their sword?

I'd like to add one more suggestion for new low level content, beyond "no more sewers, please", which would be to pick invisible enemies *or* trip attacks on mobs, but not both, and especially not both with a high respawn rate.

Memnir
04-21-2012, 06:57 PM
Even a few small changes to existing quests such as altering the ambient lighting to make some of them darker (like Depths of Darkness in House D), or swap out the Kobolds for Orcs in one or two Harbor quests would break up the monotony. I know that sewers are the motif for the Harbor - but they all look pretty much identical. Variety, even in small touches, would go a long way to helping end the "been here before/done this too" feel of the Harbor.


The Harbor is a bit of a drag because it all feels the same. Kobolds in a sewer - rinse/repeat.

I also have had a few friends try the game and leave before getting to the goodness past the Harbor, simply because the Harbor is so dreary and boring. Which is a shame, because the friends of mine which have toughed out the Harbor and made it to the goodness beyond it (thank goodness STK is such a good chain) have loved the game.

I know it's not mission-critical to DDO... but giving the Harbor a good sprucing up would go a long way to engaging new players and retaining them. I mean, Korthos is a great introduction to the game - it's really a shame that the Harbor feels like a letdown afterwards.

Xenostrata
04-21-2012, 07:12 PM
/signed.

Need new low level quests WITHOUT
sewers
kobolds/orcs/hobgoblins/etc
Knee-Deep Water (kill it!)

Ganolyn
04-21-2012, 08:39 PM
Very good idea = /signed

There is another issue, though, that will turn off many, many newer players. If you step out of the sewers to head outdoors, invisible enemies with trip attacks--apparently with a high respawn rate--are spread through various areas in Cerulean Hills.

Invisible enemies *or* enemies with trip attacks seem fine. But, why have invisible enemies with trip attacks *and* a high respawn rate in a level 2 outdoor map? Who thought that would do anything other than frustrate players who are still trying to figure out which way to point their sword?

I'd like to add one more suggestion for new low level content, beyond "no more sewers, please", which would be to pick invisible enemies *or* trip attacks on mobs, but not both, and especially not both with a high respawn rate.


There are no respawning monsters in the outdoor quests/wilderness areas in the harbor. You are simply missing some hidden ones and encountering them later.


While I agree the sewers are overused in the harbor, I try to break up the monotony by going over to the warehouse district and doing some of the warehouse quests before I go into the sewers again.

Robai
04-21-2012, 08:46 PM
/Signed

Actually couple years ago I had doubts about this game too, until I hit a true quest of my style:
Irestone Inlet

After that quest, it was like this: "Yes, this is the game I'll play".

TekkenDevil
04-23-2012, 01:44 PM
Well a redesign would be okay, especially if we could get some sort of a color overhaul.

But what I really had in mind is maybe 4-5 new F2P quests spread around levels 2-6. These would be very fun and varied quests, following the style of stuff like Assault on Stormreach or especially the Madness chains.

Acute Delirium level of design. The devs pulling out all the stops as if it were a full p2p adventure pack.

I always tell people who are about to quit how they're missing out on so much cool stuff that comes in level 10 and above. Why not bring all that great content to the beginner f2p are?

Cyndrome
04-23-2012, 02:02 PM
Sewers in video games have a heavy dogma ...

I don't believe this means what you think it means.

Not that I really have any clue what you think it means.

varusso
04-23-2012, 02:24 PM
I know there's a bunch of stuff like Cerulean Hills and Searing Heights, but it's just not enough.
Literally everyone I tried to get into DDO has complained about and quit mainly because all we ever did was run around in sewer levels.

Sewers in video games have a heavy dogma on them in general. One has to wonder how many new players DDO had lost because of having to rotor root the pipes 24/7 due to being lowly F2P peasants.

LVL 1-6, quests IN sewers:
1 Redemption
1 Sacrifices
1 Stopping the Sahuagin
2 Missing in Action
2 Durk's Got a Secret
2 Garrison's Missing Pack
2 Information is Key
2 The Sunken Sewer
2 Walk the Butcher's Path
3 Home Sweet Sewer
3 The Cloven-jaw Scourge: Blockade
3 The Kobold's Den: Clan Gnashtooth
3 The Kobold's Den: Rescuing Arlos
3 The Sacred Helm
3 The Swiped Signet
4 Freshen the Air
4 The Cloven-jaw Scourge: The Caverns of Shaagh
4 The Depths of Darkness
4 The Depths of Despair
4 Venn's Trail: Clan Tunnelworm
4 Venn's Trail: Venn's Fate
5 Halls of Shan-To-Kor
5 The Depths of Discord
5 The Depths of Doom
5 The Snitch
6 Purge the Heretics



LVL 1-6, quests NOT in sewers:
1 The Cannith Crystal
1 The Storehouse's Secret
1 The Collaborator
1 Heyton's Rest
1 Necromancer's Doom
2 Misery's Peak
2 Arachnophobia
2 Bringing the Light
2 Haverdasher
2 Protect Baudry's Interests
2 Recovering the Lost Tome
2 Retrieve the Stolen Goods
2 Stealthy Repossession
2 Stop Hazadill's Shipment
2 The Kobolds' New Ringleader
2 The Miller's Debt
2 The Smuggler's Warehouse
3 An Explosive Situation
3 Endgame: Marguerite
3 First Strike
3 Kobold Assault
3 Redfang the Unruled
3 Setting the Wards: The Lower Cathedral
3 Setting the Wards: The Patriarchs' Crypt
3 The Captives
3 The Crypt of Gerard Dryden
3 The Friar's Niece
3 The Hobgoblins' Captives
3 The Old Archives
3 To Find a Witness: Return to the Sanctuary
3 Where There's Smoke...
4 Come Out and Slay
4 Dirty Laundry
4 Endgame: The Archbishop's Fate
4 Irestone Inlet
4 Proof is in the Poison
4 Repossession
4 Rest for the Restless
4 Stand Your Ground
4 The Bookbinder Rescue
4 The Stormreaver Fresco
4 Whisperdoom's Spawn
4 Yarkuch's War-plans
5 A Small Problem
5 Archer Point Defense
5 Brood of Flame
5 Ghost of a Chance
5 Guard Duty
5 Legend of Two-Toed Tobias
5 Partycrashers
5 Prove Your Worth
5 The Chamber of Insanity
5 The Deadly Package: Agent of the Darguul
5 The Deadly Package: The Stronghold Key
5 The Lair of Summoning
5 The Mystery of Delera's Tomb
5 The Stones Run Red
5 Tomb of the Burning Heart
5 Tomb of the Crimson Heart
5 Tomb of the Immortal Heart
5 Tomb of the Sanguine Heart
5 Under the Big Top
6 Redwillow's Ruins
6 Caged Trolls
6 Dead Predators
6 Doom of the Witch-doctor: The Way to Zulkash
6 Doom of the Witch-doctor: Zulkash, Herald of Woe
6 Gladewatch Outpost Defense
6 Mirra's Sleepless Nights
6 Return to Delera's Tomb (Quest)
6 Ruined Halls
6 The Bloody Crypt
6 The Bounty Hunter
6 The Chronoscope
6 The Forgotten Caverns
6 The Iron Mines: Freeing Achka
6 The Iron Mines: Justice for Grust
6 The Troglodytes' Get
6 Valak's Mausoleum ( aka Dead Girl's Spellbook )

There are ALOT more quests NOT in the sewers than IN the sewers. Even if you limit it to Korthos and Harbor, there are at least as many NOT in sewer as IN sewer. And there are alot of quests, so thats alot of non-sewer content. It is a staple of fantasy-themed RPGs (tabletop, console, and MMO) to have lots of low-level sewer/basement type quests, or stuff in the wilderness very close to town. Thats where the low level stuff lives. In addition, there is a unifying story arc that ties alot of the sewer quests in harbor together. I highly doubt that the sewer quests are costing DDO any significant number of players as opposed to whatever other thing they dont like about this particular MMO.

And I believe the word you were looking for was stigma, not dogma -- though the assertion itself is incorrect.

TekkenDevil
04-23-2012, 02:39 PM
I don't believe this means what you think it means.

Not that I really have any clue what you think it means.

From wikipedia:
"Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by.... a particular group...."

In my case meaning:
A lot of people who play games hate sewer levels almost by instinct, because they believe that sewer levels are lazy, uninteresting environments that shouldn't be in games.

TekkenDevil
04-23-2012, 02:43 PM
There are ALOT more quests NOT in the sewers than IN the sewers. Even if you limit it to Korthos and Harbor, there are at least as many NOT in sewer as IN sewer. And there are alot of quests, so thats alot of non-sewer content. It is a staple of fantasy-themed RPGs (tabletop, console, and MMO) to have lots of low-level sewer/basement type quests, or stuff in the wilderness very close to town. Thats where the low level stuff lives. In addition, there is a unifying story arc that ties alot of the sewer quests in harbor together. I highly doubt that the sewer quests are costing DDO any significant number of players as opposed to whatever other thing they dont like about this particular MMO.

And I believe the word you were looking for was stigma, not dogma -- though the assertion itself is incorrect.

Yeah well tell that to the people who complain the game looks the same in every dungeon. We might be out of the sewers during the Baudry chain, but everything still looks the same. Sewers, caves and Warehouses all over the place. Everything is mossy green, brown, or a combination of the two. As others have said, some coloring, lighting updates certainly wouldn't hurt.

I don't mind personally. It didn't bother me and I saw only the fun gameplay. But for a lot of people, they let stuff like this get in the way. And sure you could say the game's not for them, but from Turbine's point of view, that's not exactly acceptable. They need more people, even when they aren't hurting for more people.

danotmano1998
04-23-2012, 02:49 PM
LVL 1-6, quests IN sewers:
<snip>


Good post! I was thinking that most of my time was sewer after sewer as well but after reading your post, I realized it's more that it FEELS like kobold/sewer spam.
There are indeed lots of other places to go and things to kill.

This is probably why the kobolds still hate us. In fact, I'd be willing to question a few just to confirm it.

Chai
04-23-2012, 02:58 PM
The marketing tactic being used REQUIRES there to be not enough content in any level range. Thats part of the entire point of Free-to-Play marketing. They dont want people to stay free to play. Their intentions with it are for people to use Free-to-Play as somewhat of a trial with no time limit on it, then become Premium or VIP - part of which is buying content, either directly or in association with the plan.

Chai
04-23-2012, 03:04 PM
The Harbor is a bit of a drag because it all feels the same. Kobolds in a sewer - rinse/repeat.


Its just not real low level MMO gaming unless the player is smashing rats with a club in a sewer somewhere. I think this is specifically stated on page 12 paragraphs 2-7 of section 1a of the obligatory MMO design code, and they had to have a hearing for DDO to see if kobolds qualified as "rats". It was decided that they do, but to curb any rules lawyering to the contrary, they put real rats in some places in korthos and the harbor as well just to be sure.

Kadriel
04-23-2012, 03:23 PM
LVL 1-6, quests NOT in sewers:
1 The Cannith Crystal Warehouse
1 The Storehouse's Secret Warehouse
1 The Collaborator Evil-temple like place
1 Heyton's Rest Looks like sewers
1 Necromancer's Doom Evil-temple like place
2 Arachnophobia Warehouse
2 Bringing the Light Looks like sewers
2 Haverdasher Looks like warehouse+evil temple
2 Missing in Action Looks like sewers
2 Protect Baudry's Interests Warehouse
2 Recovering the Lost Tome Looks like sewers
2 Retrieve the Stolen Goods Warehouse
2 Stealthy Repossession Evil-temple like place
2 Stop Hazadill's Shipment Warehouse
2 The Kobolds' New Ringleader Warehouse
2 The Miller's Debt Warehouse
2 The Smuggler's Warehouse Warehouse
3 An Explosive Situation Warehouse
3 Endgame: Marguerite Evil-temple like place
3 First Strike
3 Kobold Assault
3 Redfang the Unruled Looks like sewers+warehouse
3 Setting the Wards: The Lower Cathedral Evil-temple like place
3 Setting the Wards: The Patriarchs' Crypt Evil-temple like place
3 The Captives
3 The Crypt of Gerard Dryden Evil-temple like place
3 The Friar's Niece Evil-temple like place
3 The Hobgoblins' Captives Evil-temple like place
3 The Old Archives Evil-temple like place
3 To Find a Witness: Return to the Sanctuary Evil-temple like place
3 Where There's Smoke...
4 Come Out and Slay
4 Dirty Laundry Warehouse
4 Endgame: The Archbishop's Fate Evil-temple like place
4 Irestone Inlet
4 Proof is in the Poison Looks like sewers
4 Repossession Looks like sewers
4 Rest for the Restless Evil-temple like place
4 Stand Your Ground
4 The Bookbinder Rescue
4 The Stormreaver Fresco
4 Whisperdoom's Spawn
4 Yarkuch's War-plans




Lvl 5 up it does start to have some diversity, but up to lvl 4 to me at least it seens we got 3 themes going (with seweres beeing the biggest one), with very ew quests that escape those. And the ones that do only show up at premium packs, so if you are trying to make someone like the game and go vip, they are not viable

oradafu
04-23-2012, 03:26 PM
<SNIP>

Nice list, but the OP was talking about F2P quests. Of the 27 "In Sewer" quests that you listed, 22 of them are F2P; of the 78 "Outta Sewer" quests, 36 of them are F2P. So the OP is correct when saying there's alot of sewer action since 1/3 of all the f2p quests from level 1 to 6 are sewer based.

Memnir
04-23-2012, 04:56 PM
Its just not real low level MMO gaming unless the player is smashing rats with a club in a sewer somewhere.True, true.
It may be canon and/or traditional - but it's also uninteresting, boring, and frankly the Devs of DDO can do better. :)

varusso
04-23-2012, 05:04 PM
Lvl 5 up it does start to have some diversity, but up to lvl 4 to me at least it seens we got 3 themes going (with seweres beeing the biggest one), with very ew quests that escape those. And the ones that do only show up at premium packs, so if you are trying to make someone like the game and go vip, they are not viable

Heytons Rest looks like a crypt, not a sewer.
Bringing the Light looks like part of a castle or a warehouse, nothing like a sewer.
MIA is supposed to be in the sewers section, must have copied it wrong.
Lost Tome looks like a tower with a partially flooded crypt.
Redfang looks nothing like a sewer, every bit like a multi-floored warehouse.
Proof is in the Poison only has a couple of very small sections that look like sewers. The rest of it looks like a huge warehouse designed by Picasso. And not a kobold in sight on this one :D

Anyone who has played any type of fantasy RPG knows that the major themes you have jotted down are part and parcel to the whole genre, especially at low levels. As someone posted above, most games are beat a rat with a club. our vermin are kobolds.


Good post! I was thinking that most of my time was sewer after sewer as well but after reading your post, I realized it's more that it FEELS like kobold/sewer spam.
There are indeed lots of other places to go and things to kill.

This is probably why the kobolds still hate us. In fact, I'd be willing to question a few just to confirm it.


The other thing to consider here: As a new player, you have access to very limited resources. Sure, it sucks fighting the same mob over and over, but the upshot is that when you grab your first bane weapon, it goes alot further than if you were fighting lots of different types of enemies. The monstrous humanoid bane newbie wpns are great in korthos, and the reptilian bane (easy to get from collectors and constantly available on AH) are great vs the kobolds and trogs that infest the harbor. Later when you start finding other gear, you can get "universal" beat-sticks, but at the start -- it needs to be kept simple so as not to overwhelm the new player with too many different things.

varusso
04-23-2012, 05:10 PM
Yeah well tell that to the people who complain the game looks the same in every dungeon. We might be out of the sewers during the Baudry chain, but everything still looks the same. Sewers, caves and Warehouses all over the place. Everything is mossy green, brown, or a combination of the two. As others have said, some coloring, lighting updates certainly wouldn't hurt.

I don't mind personally. It didn't bother me and I saw only the fun gameplay. But for a lot of people, they let stuff like this get in the way. And sure you could say the game's not for them, but from Turbine's point of view, that's not exactly acceptable. They need more people, even when they aren't hurting for more people.

The dungeons look very much like i would expect them to look at that level in a game named for DND, to include how they are stocked. One of the things that struck me the most when i started playing was how well they created the appearance of the DND world that I envisioned as a DM. Any tabletop vet will tell you they spend most of their time at low levels slogging around in sewers, marshes, dank caverns, crypts, and other such undesirable places that the higher level adventurers cant be bothered with anymore. Its like earning your dues in the adventuring world. The elite adventurers are too busy saving the world from invading armies and demigods to bother with the mundane, disgusting quests that the everyday folk need done for them. Thats where the lowbies cut their teeth and make a name for themselves :D

learst
04-23-2012, 05:11 PM
From wikipedia:
"Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by.... a particular group...."

In my case meaning:
A lot of people who play games hate sewer levels almost by instinct, because they believe that sewer levels are lazy, uninteresting environments that shouldn't be in games.


Dogma:
1.an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, behavior, etc., as of a church.

2.a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption; the recently defined dogma of papal infallibility

3. doctrine proclaimed as unquestionably true by a particular true by a particular; difficulty of resisting political dogma

4.a settled or opinion, belief, or principle: the classic dogma of objective in scientific observation.





stigma:
a mark of disgrace or infamy, a stain or reproach, as on one's reputation


There is technical meaning and then there is context. I strongly believe the word you're looking for is "stigma". As in the "stigma" associated with the use of sewers in games. I'd hardly say the perception of these folks can be considered as a dogma (unchanging, unyielding, with established rules), though they might think so themselves. :p

learst
04-23-2012, 05:21 PM
Yeah well tell that to the people who complain the game looks the same in every dungeon. We might be out of the sewers during the Baudry chain, but everything still looks the same. Sewers, caves and Warehouses all over the place. Everything is mossy green, brown, or a combination of the two. As others have said, some coloring, lighting updates certainly wouldn't hurt.

I don't mind personally. It didn't bother me and I saw only the fun gameplay. But for a lot of people, they let stuff like this get in the way. And sure you could say the game's not for them, but from Turbine's point of view, that's not exactly acceptable. They need more people, even when they aren't hurting for more people.

Different folks have different associations/hangups - if it's not this, it's something else. Just like 6 years down the road, some folks still thinks WF=robot. To them anything that is humanoid but not "living" per se is considered a robot. Or Eberron = not "fantasy/too technology"!

The fact there are different environments - sewers, hills, warehouses, dungeons etc and to these folks they are all "samey" suggest a pattern of how they associate things. Around lvl 8 they/another group might go - too much brown/green (TR, Gwylan, Tear, Stormreach, Stromvauld).

Just pointing out that different levels have different pervasive trends, more devils at end games, more undead at mid level, and more kobolds at lower levels. :)

While there is certainly something Turbine could do, I'm not sure if it's worth it since I think there is enough variety/quests at lower levels. :)

Snarglefrump
04-23-2012, 05:23 PM
Personally, I rather enjoy the harbor sewer quests. At cap, I rather miss them.

Although I do find myself expecting to run into Ninja Turtles whenever I'm running them.

Cardoor
04-23-2012, 06:38 PM
An industrious kobold with a captain’s chapeau, found not his feathered hat in the sewers below...

Ganolyn
04-23-2012, 07:26 PM
LVL 1-6, quests IN sewers:
2 Misery's Peak
6 Redwillow's Ruins

If those are sewers they're the strangest looking sewers I've ever seen! ;)

licho
04-23-2012, 07:50 PM
Its more complicated/complex.

Yes there is a problem that most low level quests are all about sewers, kobolds.
Even if its not sewer its often very similar (like crypts).
And this may discourage new players from playing.
In the same way lack of harbour meta plot (similar to Korthos one) is bad.
The quality of the quests drop down after Korthos significantly. And i doubt at level 2-3 people are already hooked.
But this is another topic.

I agree that it will be nice to see some f2p lv 3 quests which will be outside sewers/crypts.
Like:
- Raiding some Orc stronghold in Curuelian hills.
- QUest on the streats of harbour (similar to Missing)
This will add some versality to early leveling.

But, it aint gonna happen, since:
- There is already pleanty of early level content.
- Turbine cant sold it, the revenew of better 1st impression is quite subtle, while new shiny class for 1500tp is solid income.
- There is so much ways to skip early game, how to sold vet status when early levels are so fun?

varusso
04-24-2012, 01:33 AM
If those are sewers they're the strangest looking sewers I've ever seen! ;)

meh, bad sorting in my excel list apparently. :D

thanks, fixed.

Postumus
04-24-2012, 02:28 AM
Very good idea = /signed

There is another issue, though, that will turn off many, many newer players. If you step out of the sewers to head outdoors, invisible enemies with trip attacks--apparently with a high respawn rate--are spread through various areas in Cerulean Hills.

Invisible enemies *or* enemies with trip attacks seem fine. But, why have invisible enemies with trip attacks *and* a high respawn rate in a level 2 outdoor map? Who thought that would do anything other than frustrate players who are still trying to figure out which way to point their sword?

I'd like to add one more suggestion for new low level content, beyond "no more sewers, please", which would be to pick invisible enemies *or* trip attacks on mobs, but not both, and especially not both with a high respawn rate.

There aren't any invisible enemies in Cerulean hills, your spot is just too low so you can't see the hidden enemies until you are right on top of them. With a higher spot you'll get the drop on them.

Truga
04-24-2012, 03:13 AM
Had one friend quit before he got out of the sewers. Then again, the other 6 didn't so it's all good.

Zachski
04-24-2012, 04:10 AM
The point is, though, is that all of these levels FEEL like sewers, even if they aren't.

They're dank and dreary and wet and the textures are nearly the same.

Furthermore, the sewer levels annoy me for two main reasons:

1. Knee-high water. Stop it.

2. Waterfall ramps. STOP IT. These are not entertaining. They are not even challenging. They do not offer anything to combat. They are merely annoying and time-consuming and serve no practical purpose.

3. Get some colors other than green and brown for early Stormreach, please!

dodger72
04-24-2012, 06:51 AM
I cringe every time I TR....because beyond Korthos (which can be quick and sometimes enjoyable) is....the Harbor. Grindy grind grind....same old same old same old...until 4th or 5 level.....(sigh)

I liked how DDO started to clean up Korthos a bit an update or two ago....the new look in the crypts is great....so...when's it gonna be the Harbor's turn?

Alrik_Fassbauer
04-24-2012, 07:12 AM
My main char is at level 13 now ... And I've begun to really, really hate sewers of any kind ...

DethTrip
04-24-2012, 08:09 AM
/signed

I had a friend try this game and he got bored with it very quickly because he didn't like the quests. I tried to explain that after he hit lvl7 or so that it gets better but he gave up on it. This is a close friend that plays a lot of games with me. Make the game more attractive to new players and you can fill you pockets even more, which we know you love to do.

Phemt81
04-24-2012, 08:46 AM
Good post! I was thinking that most of my time was sewer after sewer as well but after reading your post, I realized it's more that it FEELS like kobold/sewer spam.

Except that the OP was clearly talking only about FTP quests, while varusso added many ptp quests which filled the (guess what?) "not a sewer" section... :p

Sarisa
04-24-2012, 08:53 AM
The low level F2P quests need to be done in a way that attracts people to remain, and become paying customers. Many of them are good quests, but far too many are either sewers or warehouses.

Yes, that type of quest is standard for D&D, but since DDO is trying to attract more than just the hardcore D&D players, there needs to be more variety, even in just graphical look, to the level 2-5 range of free quests.

I also know several people who couldn't stand the blandness of the Harbor, after the reasonably interesting and nice looking Korthos.

Irestone, the Cerulean Hills quests, and Kobold Assault just aren't enough to entice all potential buyers to remain.

Phemt81
04-24-2012, 09:11 AM
I cringe every time I TR....because beyond Korthos (which can be quick and sometimes enjoyable) is....the Harbor. Grindy grind grind....same old same old same old...until 4th or 5 level.....(sigh)

I liked how DDO started to clean up Korthos a bit an update or two ago....the new look in the crypts is great....so...when's it gonna be the Harbor's turn?

Funny that my opinion is on the opposite side. :)

I think korthos quests are a bit too long and boring, while harbor's have some diversity and are very quick to be done.

But i agree they should stop changing heyton's rest each 15 days (<--exageration) and improve a bit the harbor side of the game, where possible.

azrael4h
04-24-2012, 10:26 AM
<snip>

A lot of the non-sewer quests you listed are not F2P, such as 3 Barrel Cove, Sharn Syndicate, Catacombs, Necropolis I, and Tangleroot Gorge. Still, there's about as much non-sewer as sewer content; the problem is that they inevitably are pushed towards sewer stuff straight out of the gate basically.

And of course the unending hordes of Kobolds gives the game a lazy, unfinished and limited look early on. More variety for newcomers, to hook them into the game, cannot hurt anything.

griffin_230
04-24-2012, 10:32 AM
Yep, the sewer quests are incredibly bland and dreary looking for new F2P players. All those same and uninteresting environments make it a struggle to play through. Change the textures, lighting or colors if you want to get more people hooked into the game.

If neutral newcomers with no preference towards D&D play newer games like DCUO, Diablo 3 (this is not F2P, but even playing through the beta, the early levels looked better than the dull ddo sewers - I reckon even Blizzard artists could make sewers look more interesting) and I suspect Neverwinter, those games will most likely make more of an impression to newcomers at the early levels than the bland and boring looking sewer levels in DDO. Newcomers looking for a game in a crowded market are more likely to be initially hooked on how a game looks and the environments/atmosphere they play in.

Zachski
04-24-2012, 03:45 PM
You don't sell cakes if your free samples taste bland :P

Xynot2
04-24-2012, 03:47 PM
*removed actual list to shrink the quote*

There are ALOT more quests NOT in the sewers than IN the sewers. Even if you limit it to Korthos and Harbor, there are at least as many NOT in sewer as IN sewer. And there are alot of quests, so thats alot of non-sewer content. It is a staple of fantasy-themed RPGs (tabletop, console, and MMO) to have lots of low-level sewer/basement type quests, or stuff in the wilderness very close to town. Thats where the low level stuff lives. In addition, there is a unifying story arc that ties alot of the sewer quests in harbor together. I highly doubt that the sewer quests are costing DDO any significant number of players as opposed to whatever other thing they dont like about this particular MMO.

And I believe the word you were looking for was stigma, not dogma -- though the assertion itself is incorrect.

100% agree. I tried to +1 rep ya but the last +1 rep was to you and the forum doesnt allow you to +1 rep the same person twice.

#1 Turbine has to make money and if you get passed the 1-6, you will probably end up buying something. They cant give it all away and the way it's designed, you can get to level 20 with spending a miniscule amount of cash in comparison with other MMOs.

#2 This isn't WoW and with the way Turbine has set things up, it never will be (THANK GYGAX!).

The game has progressively gotten easier and easier and adding low level content like that makes it easier to keep from getting bored and prevents you from spending real money. I WANT you to spend real money. Why? Because I dont want the people from WoW flooding DDO because it's basically free to play here. I want this to remain a quality community.

That being said, some stuff could be remade into a more appealing visual than being in a sewer. But leveling 1-6 is so fast anyway that it's nothing to worry about. Especially with the new veteran2 status where you can start at lv 7. It's probably the reason that 3BC isn't being shown as in line for anything new.

Zachski
04-24-2012, 04:08 PM
I repeat:

You can't sell cakes when your free samples taste bland.

BoBach
04-24-2012, 04:14 PM
Hi´,

if you like to convince your friends about this great game, take them to Irestone Inlet in harbor or Shan-to-kan in the market. Both are one of the best quests with a very deep immersive atmosphere.

Regards Bo.
PS.: I know that STK is not F2P, but maybe spend a guest pass

SiliconScout
04-24-2012, 04:52 PM
For the record I think 3BC doesn't get run much not because of it's content but because the damned island is so freaking big and you have to keep running back and forth to run the chain.

It's just not worth the time to spend 25-30 minutes of an hour of questing running to the quests / givers.

The theme is great the design is just too sprawling.

Galeria
04-24-2012, 05:22 PM
IMO-

People don't leave DDO because of a few sewer quests.

They fail to get hooked because they don't "get it."

They don't get the complicated build process, understand the difference between feats and enhancements, why things don't actually do what the description says, what effects stack and what don't and generally how to "beat" the game in a weekend.

It's overwhelming. I can't blame them. But I also can't blame the fact that the first few quests are sewers or warehouses.

The complexity of succeeding in this game takes a learning curve and is nearly impossible to do without a real person's help (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=368893).

But it's a heck of a lot easier to say, "I don't like the sewer quests" than to admit that it's just too hard to figure out or that you'd rather play something easier.

Sarisa
04-24-2012, 05:39 PM
My sister specifically quit because:

1. She felt overwhelmed with quests/options once she got out of Korthos.
2. She got horribly bored with the sewers and warehouses, and how everything looked the same.

Part of what was said about the lack of guidance (and the newer guide system in Korthos is a nice help) is quite true. The blandness and dullness of what you have between the easy and fun introduction in Korthos, and the fun of the Houses is still a big issue.

Zachski
04-24-2012, 05:40 PM
IMO-

People don't leave DDO because of a few sewer quests.


Wow, what a very broad-sweeping statement.

I'm sure you have some facts to back this up, of course.

Especially since so many people have said that their friends left because of sewer quests, and have expressed complaints about them themselves >_>

extraocular
04-24-2012, 05:45 PM
I had three friends quit the game right around the time they were finishing up the harbor quests.

All of them mentioned how a lot of the quests looked similar, but they did not seem to have that problem in Korthos.

So half the people I introduced to the game quit at about the same point in game progression.
I realize that it is a very small sample size, but I think there is something to it.

There is just something boring about the harbor for new players, and yes I helped them from the start, making a new char each time and running all the quests with them.

varusso
04-24-2012, 06:02 PM
I repeat:

You can't sell cakes when your free samples taste bland.

OK since you keep jumping up and down screaming look at me --

Fortunately, they arent selling cake,s they are selling steaks, and they are quite well seasoned. Obviously, people *ARE* buying what turbine is selling. The fact that the game (and these forums) are even here attests to that.


Wow, what a very broad-sweeping statement.

I'm sure you have some facts to back this up, of course.

Especially since so many people have said that their friends left because of sewer quests, and have expressed complaints about them themselves >_>

"So many people" as you say it is a handful -- less than a dozen -- posting on the forums. Thats a drop in the bucket. I know HUNDREDS of people who have NOT left because of sewer quests -- and there are thousands more that I dont even know who also have not left. You are one of them.

If you dont like sewer quests, thats fine. But lets not pretend they are "killing the game" or "driving everyone away". They're not.

varusso
04-24-2012, 06:06 PM
100% agree. I tried to +1 rep ya but the last +1 rep was to you and the forum doesnt allow you to +1 rep the same person twice.

#1 Turbine has to make money and if you get passed the 1-6, you will probably end up buying something. They cant give it all away and the way it's designed, you can get to level 20 with spending a miniscule amount of cash in comparison with other MMOs.

#2 This isn't WoW and with the way Turbine has set things up, it never will be (THANK GYGAX!).

The game has progressively gotten easier and easier and adding low level content like that makes it easier to keep from getting bored and prevents you from spending real money. I WANT you to spend real money. Why? Because I dont want the people from WoW flooding DDO because it's basically free to play here. I want this to remain a quality community.

That being said, some stuff could be remade into a more appealing visual than being in a sewer. But leveling 1-6 is so fast anyway that it's nothing to worry about. Especially with the new veteran2 status where you can start at lv 7. It's probably the reason that 3BC isn't being shown as in line for anything new.

Regarding 3BC :D
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4416107&postcount=7

Zachski
04-24-2012, 06:24 PM
OK since you keep jumping up and down screaming look at me --

Fortunately, they arent selling cake,s they are selling steaks, and they are quite well seasoned. Obviously, people *ARE* buying what turbine is selling. The fact that the game (and these forums) are even here attests to that.

Doesn't matter if it's cakes or steaks.

When you give out free samples, you want the samples to be of the same quality of the food that you're actually selling. You want people to be impressed with your product. If the sample is bland, people will be under the impression that the actual steak you're selling is bland.

Obviously, Turbine is doing something right, but don't defend bad business practices. Please.



"So many people" as you say it is a handful -- less than a dozen -- posting on the forums. Thats a drop in the bucket. I know HUNDREDS of people who have NOT left because of sewer quests -- and there are thousands more that I dont even know who also have not left. You are one of them.

If you dont like sewer quests, thats fine. But lets not pretend they are "killing the game" or "driving everyone away". They're not.

No one is pretending that they are killing the game or driving everyone away. You, however, are pretending that there isn't a problem at all. It's possible for a problem to exist without it being a game killer. Just look at the General Discussion forum some time.

The fact is, if Turbine improves the visual style and variety of the F2P level 2-6 quests, they will be getting more business. This is a good thing.

Every customer counts to some small degree. We want Turbine to succeed as much as you do. We want MORE players to join.

griffin_230
04-24-2012, 06:36 PM
This is a competitive marketplace now. If F2P newcomers get bored by such bland environments early on, they are not going to want to stay around too long and they will go somewhere else. If you make the early environments look more immersive/interesting and varied, it's more likely newcomers will want to stay on and learn more about the game. The information about the game and its mechanics is out there, whether it's the official forums, ddowiki or something else. If people get hooked early, they can easily find that information on the internet.

We all want to GROW the game in the face of increasing F2P competition. Most people here have TRd I suspect and have a great fondness for DDO. It wouldn't hurt to have Turbine have another look at the F2P early levels and try to make them more visually varied and interesting for newcomers who are not necessarily hardcore D&D fans.

EpiKagEMO
04-24-2012, 07:06 PM
not to be funny or anything, but heroes need a place to start. the sewers are a great place to start :)

I've actually had a couple of friends leave because of the sewers, but maybe its better. why might it be better? my friends that left have very low patience and are very childish. Seeing them at higher level content... they would drive the older players crazy.

Galeria
04-24-2012, 08:57 PM
Wow, what a very broad-sweeping statement.

I'm sure you have some facts to back this up, of course.



IMO= In my opinion

Zachski
04-24-2012, 09:58 PM
IMO= In my opinion

And what have you based your opinion on?

psi0nix
04-24-2012, 10:39 PM
Have to agree on the whole sewer / kobold theme, some are good, it IS a staple of the genre to have these types of dungeons.

There is nothing wrong with having a good mix of "interesting" and "visually appealing" content, some texture changes to the walls / floors, perhaps some nice lighting effects or even oversized monstors (same Cr) to spice things up a bit would be nice.

I find the game has "segments" of styles like the sewer kobold thing, then the sewer / trog thing, the undead thing (which are really cool).

The newer content does have a much better range of variety, I realise it's difficult to "go back" and re-make dungeons but it certainly would go a long way to enticing new players to actually stay on.

Even as a P2P player I find the sewer / evil temple style quests are overused.

3BC is a good example (if somewhat sparse) of a low level visually appealing area - we won't mention the XP or loot value of the area :(

I can't say I've had anyone leave specifically because of this, but I can see how it would increase the chance of players staying.

Truga
04-24-2012, 10:58 PM
3BC is a good example (if somewhat sparse) of a low level visually appealing area - we won't mention the XP or loot value of the area :(

3BC is awesome, but with the distinct lack of loot/XP, it really should be F2P. That said, I think MadFloyd said something about 3BC loot getting something...

Zachski
04-24-2012, 11:12 PM
I realize it wouldn't make much logical sense, but make some of the sewers have different textures. Remove the water ramps and replace them with regular ramps. Make some watery areas shallower.

Heck, make the environments look less samey, and I really don't care about the enemies.

It's just difficult to go from a place that has a variety of textures (Korthos) to a place that... doesn't. (Harbor and Marketplace)

Galeria
04-24-2012, 11:30 PM
And what have you based your opinion on?

15+ years as a usability analyst. And trying to introduce people I know to the game.

Anecdotal evidence is only relevant to the person interpreting it. Since no one has paid me for an in-depth user-centered interaction design study on new user retention in DDO, I can only give you my observations based on a relatively small data sampling.

Ergo, I identified my post as my opinion and not a professional review.

What's your opinion based on?

Thundaga
04-25-2012, 12:26 AM
LVL 1-6, quests IN sewers:

[26 quests]


LVL 1-6, quests NOT in sewers:

[79 quests]



People will mostly re-play the same dungeons over and over again either for exp, named loot, to help friends, to try them out on different difficulties, and/or because they'll often make new characters to test out different classes. The starting quests in the Harbor happen to be sewers, so they will be the ones to be re-played most of all. Also realize that some of the LONGEST low-level quests take place in sewers, such as Butcher's Path and WW. It's not queer to FEEL like all you're doing is trudging around in dirty sewers.

It's for good reason, though! Don't forget you're in the Harbor. Story- and lore-wise, from what I've gathered, the Harbor--as well as the Marketplace--is having problems with an increased infestation of Kobolds in their sewers and drains. I believe these sewers were also once home to the Kobolds before the people took over (but I may be wrong about that). So the general public will, without doubt, have problems with Kobold thefts, kidnappings, and other annoying, mischievous antics...and that smell! That horrible, horrible smell!

Zachski
04-25-2012, 12:39 AM
15+ years as a usability analyst. And trying to introduce people I know to the game.

Anecdotal evidence is only relevant to the person interpreting it. Since no one has paid me for an in-depth user-centered interaction design study on new user retention in DDO, I can only give you my observations based on a relatively small data sampling.

Ergo, I identified my post as my opinion and not a professional review.

What's your opinion based on?

My opinion is based off of my own experiences as well as what people have said in this thread. Nor is it a wide-sweeping statement based on an absolute.

Either way, I would be more careful of your word choices if I were you. Absolute opinions such as "No one has ever left the game because of sewers" are remarkably easy to prove wrong (If even one person has left the game because of sewers, you are wrong), but non-absolute opinions (such as "Most people tend to leave the game, not because of sewers, but because of how difficult it is to build and player a character") tend to be more accurate and more well-grounded in reality.

Also, you essentially said "In my opinion, everyone's friends who stopped playing after level 7 lied to them. everyone." Might want to be careful about what your word choice implies in the future :P

Galeria
04-25-2012, 07:20 AM
My opinion is based off of my own experiences as well as what people have said in this thread. Nor is it a wide-sweeping statement based on an absolute.

Either way, I would be more careful of your word choices if I were you. Absolute opinions such as "No one has ever left the game because of sewers" are remarkably easy to prove wrong (If even one person has left the game because of sewers, you are wrong), but non-absolute opinions (such as "Most people tend to leave the game, not because of sewers, but because of how difficult it is to build and player a character") tend to be more accurate and more well-grounded in reality.

Also, you essentially said "In my opinion, everyone's friends who stopped playing after level 7 lied to them. everyone." Might want to be careful about what your word choice implies in the future :P

I think you might want to read more carefully. I did not say no one ever left the game because of sewers.

You might also want to drink less caffeine and lay off the sugar as you are getting really bent out of shape over something trivial.

Posting on the forums can be hard, but you can learn not to take the posts personally. I understand your deep anger towards the sewers, and I will agree that they are absolutely the worst thing a new player can face and should all have air fresheners and vases of flowers to make new players feel warm and fuzzy. Maybe they can have kittens too.

Deep breaths, it's going to be ok http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w378/galeriaddo/snooks.gif

Snarglefrump
04-25-2012, 07:52 AM
Either way, I would be more careful of your word choices if I were you. Absolute opinions such as "No one has ever left the game because of sewers" are remarkably easy to prove wrong (If even one person has left the game because of sewers, you are wrong),

If you're going to use quotation marks while criticizing Galeria's word choice, it would be courteous to put Galeria's actual words inside the quotation marks.

Xynot2
04-26-2012, 10:41 AM
Regarding 3BC :D
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4416107&postcount=7

SWEET!!!! I play in 3BC when I get tired of the grind. I always use it for getting the favor. The only complaints I have about 3BC are Too spread out from the quest givers, xp is low and the loot sucks. I know that sounds like a lot but I spend hours out there because it's a refreshing from the rest of DDO. And before they added the 3 runs=an Ioun stone to the Mindsunder stuff, I was getting mine in 3BC and Irestone(which I've run so many times I run it once on elite and then forget about it)