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Ungood
04-19-2012, 04:56 PM
This was brought up in another topic, here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=367256), and the idea took root here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4411733&postcount=383). So I wanted to being it so suggestions and ideas to let some other players feel it out.

I would like to prefix this with a few points before we get to the main idea.

First: It is widely known that Pure Melees are in need of additional means of self healing, so much so there are many topics started by many players, from new players to players in top tier raiding guilds noting that this is a problem with the game and that something needs to be done about it. The only question at this point, is: What

Secondly: Healing at end game is not an issuse, almost every post or topic about self healing is not dealing with end game toons, that have access to raid and epic gear, as well as SF potions. As it stands there is quite a bit of self healing for the end game player, all suggestions are for mid game builds.

Third: As it stands, there are already Silver Flame potions in the game, thus making "heal potions" that offer all the benefits of SF pots with none of the drawbacks is not an option.

Fourth: Now, some people have brought up the mantra "Build for Self healing" well, lets be honest here, that is exactly what I am trying to suggest with this idea. Providing players a means to build for self healing, using Feats and AP to accomplish the goal. As you can see, I am not against trade offs and choices, and with the idea that this will cost a feat, which might be better served for a more damage feat, such is fate, we all have to make choices, this is just my idea on a way to put that choice on the table. Now, from what I have read and seen on these forums, The main issue that keeps getting brought up again and again is that a pure melee, or non-blue bars, need some love in the self sufficiency department, mainly, self-healing at the mid levels, before the 'Good gear' kicks in.

So what I brought up was an idea for Feat called "Many Pot" (a play on Many Shot) which would allow melee's to be able to drink more then one potion at a time. This ability should toggle perhaps like Meta Magics feats so that they might while a player might want to chug several lesser restore pots to remove stat damage, or chug several cure pots to recover life, they might not want to be quaffing down 5 Remove disease potions for one effect. Which I think we can all agree, makes sense.

Anyway, the idea is that the Feat "Many Pot" would become available to any Pure Melee (meaning any class that can't cast spells by 3rd level) at 3rd level, and would allow them to drink 3 potions at once.

They then could Upgrade the number of potions drank though Enhancements, paying AP to chug more pots at one time, like Toughness Enchantments, limited by class, and race, to allow for diversity of numbers.

Some races would be allowed to have racial boons to pot chugging, like someone suggested that perhaps Dwarves might be able to spend some AP to get an additional pot in, Well call is Bearded Lush enchantment.

Since some classes have inherent means as well as many low level options to boost their heal amp, like Monks for example, it would be fair to the system that should be capped at a lower number of max Pots able to be chugged, like say they cap at 5 Potions, While other classes, like a pally could go up to say 7 and a Fighter could go up to 9.

The idea is to keep the number lower to as to not make this a raid healing option, but a questing/leveling options, which with Auto-Grouping (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=368684) coming out, a means to make all classes able to just group up without anyone being a third wheel will become an imperative need as opposed to some alternate option or solo favor build.

Another point brought up, chugging pots makes for an uninterpretable means of healing, and I have to admit, that is a good point.

I'll admit that there should be a allowance to fail chugging several pots mid-combat to keep players from just spam chugging to win a fight.

So a solution suggested was to have using this feat in combat require "Skill Check" roll, perhaps something like a Reflex save, with abilities like Uncanny Dodge functioning like Quicken, where if you fail the roll you botch the drink attempt and destroy the pots in the process.

I suppose, this could be expanded to add in additional feats like "Combat Drinking" which would allow a player to chug half the number of pots (rounded up) they would be able to chug with no save needed to be rolled.

Now, thanks to some awesome posters, Jaid314, dodger72, Mastese, Meetch1972, Talon_Moonshadow, for giving me some amazing insight into balance and issues that may arise. Thank you very much for the info and thoughts.

Lithic
04-19-2012, 04:57 PM
I could see casters taking this feat lol

mobrien316
04-19-2012, 05:00 PM
I think it would be far simpler (and in no way game-breaking) to simply offer Potions of Healing, with different prices for different caster levels.

I shouldn't have to spend AP simply to drink a pot.

Jaid314
04-19-2012, 05:24 PM
20 potions at a time is excessive. i mean, that's like 400-600 HP without any heal amp at all, if i'm not mistaken.

even just the base 5 at a time would be worth more than the lesser version of silver flame potions.

Marcus-Hawkeye
04-19-2012, 05:56 PM
Not a bad idea. But how about "crafting" better potions?

GoRinNoSho
04-19-2012, 06:11 PM
Not a bad idea, stone of change recipe: 100 clw potions = 10 cmw = 1 csw = 1/10 ccw = 1/100 heal

Assuming heal would be cl 11 (110 hp) as per scroll.

Would still be a place for the SF potions at 250. Unless they want to make them more-loch ness monstery at 350 ;)

Ungood
04-19-2012, 06:12 PM
20 potions at a time is excessive. i mean, that's like 400-600 HP without any heal amp at all, if i'm not mistaken.

To answer this question: Using this Info (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4382798&postcount=74), I provided in the Past, in relation to this subject matter. Since it is not one big pot, but 20 separate pots calculated, which means it would average out as opposed to maxing in any direction. That means

20 CMW pots would heal roughly 240 HP, cost 580 Plat (Guild Vendor), allowing only 5 uses per stack of 100.

20 CSW Pots would Heal roughly 360 HP, cost 1460 plat (Guild Vendor) and again, only allowing 5 uses per stack.

To be honest, I would not expect many 20th level Melee to keep this feat, or keep the line up to 20, once they made 20th and could get far more healing from far less resources, in fact, I would not be surprised if it became little more then a leveling feat.

However, I am also not married to this number, I am expecting some revision and change.

Also, to Star, you mentioned casters wanting this feat, that would not happen, at least, not without cost to the caster, in the same way Meta Magic Feats are not open to Melee Builds, Many Pot would not be open to casters, if they wanted the feat, they would have to take no less then 3 levels in a non-blue-bar single melee class to acquire it. Since Rangers and Paladins do not get spells till 4th level, they count a pure melee until 4th level, and thus the Many Pot would be available to them.

Ungood
04-19-2012, 06:21 PM
I think it would be far simpler (and in no way game-breaking) to simply offer Potions of Healing, with different prices for different caster levels.

These already exist, they are called Silver Flame Potions. Sold in 2 sizes, and prices, for your convenience.


I shouldn't have to spend AP simply to drink a pot.The Good news is! You're not.

You can still drink as many potions as you like one at a time without spending anything to do so. But, some people would spend a feat and some AP to save a little time. If that is not for you, you have no pressure to use this feat. But, just like using two weapons simultaneously, chugging several pots at once takes special skill and talent.

Just like Toughness, you get HP no matter what you do, but if you want MORE HP, you need to spend a feat and some AP. Same with drinking many potions at once. You can drink a potion, all you want, but if you want to drink MORE of them at once, that will cost you some AP and a Feat. It's a very fair and reasonable construct in game terms and design.

Ungood
04-19-2012, 06:32 PM
Not a bad idea. But how about "crafting" better potions?

If you looked at the link I provided in the OP, they were discussing just that very idea (and several other very good ideas), I encourage you to feel free to read and perhaps join in their discussion with that suggestion. But I have no intention to discuss that option here.

CanuckWisdom
04-19-2012, 06:32 PM
I dont think melee need better self healing.

I do think melee need more options for dealing with enemies, bringing them closer to casters in versatility. Such as improved trip having a chance to affect multiple opponents in an arc, faster cool down on stunning blow, etc etc.

If you want your melee to be able to self heal, play one of the classes that has less dps but better self healing and stop trying to hijack paladins and rangers (also stop complaining about how those two classes suck because they don't do as much damage).

What happened to DnD being about the party, and the division of labor/roles?

mobrien316
04-19-2012, 07:41 PM
These already exist, they are called Silver Flame Potions. Sold in 2 sizes, and prices, for your convenience.

The Good news is! You're not.

You can still drink as many potions as you like one at a time without spending anything to do so. But, some people would spend a feat and some AP to save a little time. If that is not for you, you have no pressure to use this feat. But, just like using two weapons simultaneously, chugging several pots at once takes special skill and talent.

Just like Toughness, you get HP no matter what you do, but if you want MORE HP, you need to spend a feat and some AP. Same with drinking many potions at once. You can drink a potion, all you want, but if you want to drink MORE of them at once, that will cost you some AP and a Feat. It's a very fair and reasonable construct in game terms and design.

Are you familiar with Silver Flame potions? Since you mention them in the same sentence as the word "convenience" I suspect you are not.

Why did you write "I welcome your feedback" in your original post? From your replies to various feedback, it seems clear you do not.

dodger72
04-19-2012, 07:46 PM
I like the idea of starting as a class feat (as in toughness) and moving to improvement through AP cost. Chugging multi-pots would end some suffering for the pure melee (such as a barbarian).

Ungood
04-19-2012, 08:11 PM
Are you familiar with Silver Flame potions? Since you mention them in the same sentence as the word "convenience" I suspect you are not.

Why did you write "I welcome your feedback" in your original post? From your replies to various feedback, it seems clear you do not.

yes, and I do welcome Feedback, as such, let me take this moment to discuss what feedback is, There are several forums of Feedback or simply replying to a post that a player can give. There is a distinct yet subtle difference however between offering feedback and just posting a response.

The first and principal Form of Feedback is where they approach the idea, weigh it's merits upon what it affects, and discuss the points of the idea proposed and see how viable it is in it's own right. With this approach, as Jaid314 pointed out questions and concerns relating to the actual idea presented, revisions and changes can be made to fine tune and adjust an idea to be far more viable and thus feedback and reception are done with mutual resqpect and enjoyment of parties involved.

This is the type of feed back that anyone requesting feed back is seeking.

The other forms of replying are where you start to discuss subjects that have nothing to do with the idea proposed, IE:"I have this other better idea"

The problem with this is that this posting does not actually offer feedback to the idea proposed, it is the player using the topic as a sounding board for their own idea. While, sometimes welcomed in topics that are looking for players to just propose ideas and thoughts, it is not what is sought after when requesting feedback upon a specific idea. Which is what I was doing. So simply dolling out your own idea was in fact not offering feedback.

Now, what you did, was in your closing was flippantly dismiss the idea when you said: I shouldn't have to spend AP simply to drink a pot.

So it's pretty clear you have no intention to offer honest, helpful, or even actual feedback, so to be blunt, No, I don't welcome disruptive and dismissive posts like yours. I hope I have cleared up any misunderstanding you may have had on that question.

Now, quick note: When someone takes the time to link the Discussion that this idea triggered from, it would be nice if you took the time to actually go check out that link to see if what you are going to say has maybe, already been said, a few dozen times over just to see if your "Other Better Idea" may have already been beaten to death to the point that it pulverized horse byproduct.

With that, yes, I welcome your Feedback.

However, I do not welcome some argument or fight.

Mastese
04-19-2012, 08:56 PM
I'd rather see Melee's with more options for greater hit point pools than enhanced restorative abilities. It does no one any good to attempt to blur the ability lines between classes.

My PM, my WF AM and predominantly my Light Monk need no help from no one...and I don't necessarily believe that to be a good thing. With already diminished availability of LFMs, reduced interest in careers in Divine fields (mainly due to jackasses), and Guilding societies that prohibit questing or socializing outside of their Cults, we don't need more reasons for people not to group up! I'm not sure why, in many cases, we simply don't have the option to play DDO offline now since more and more people deeply believe others to be more of a liability than an option to group up with.

If it were not that Melee's needed healing support, there would virtually be no reason for anybody to group with anybody. Is moving things further along down the path of MSORPG in the interest of "fairness", "balance" or "versatility" really what everyone wants?

-Mastese

Ungood
04-19-2012, 09:44 PM
I'd rather see Melee's with more options for greater hit point pools than enhanced restorative abilities. It does no one any good to attempt to blur the ability lines between classes.

My PM, my WF AM and predominantly my Light Monk need no help from no one...and I don't necessarily believe that to be a good thing. With already diminished availability of LFMs, reduced interest in careers in Divine fields (mainly due to jackasses), and Guilding societies that prohibit questing or socializing outside of their Cults, we don't need more reasons for people not to group up! I'm not sure why, in many cases, we simply don't have the option to play DDO offline now since more and more people deeply believe others to be more of a liability than an option to group up with.

If it were not that Melee's needed healing support, there would virtually be no reason for anybody to group with anybody. Is moving things further along down the path of MSORPG in the interest of "fairness", "balance" or "versatility" really what everyone wants?

-Mastese

This is a very valid concern, and I understand what you are saying, however, I was suggesting this to make grouping easier on melee builds in general not to encourage soloing. While I realize that some would use it to solo, that is not my desire nor the direction that wanted this feat to take the game in.

I suggested it with the hope that grouping would become easier, and thus more people will readily do it.

As you put clearly, their seems to be a distinct decline in Divine Classes or players wanting to play healer, and and increase in vets building Solo designed Builds, this has had the adverse effect on grouping in general with less and less LFM's up, the place is looking like a ghost town.

So, my suggestion was to make it so that players could make their own groups, and simply take first five and just go play a game and have some fun. And while many can do that already, many can't. This would allow a player to give up something like a feat and some AP and be able to just play a game with anyone else no matter what class they were.

In that regard, I have to agree with some of the other sentiments that the numbers need to tweaked a little to keep them more modest to deal with just typical leveling content, and not be an alternative form of healing for raiding content, which is not my intention.

However, if this Feat can make it so that a players can long in, join a group and go have some fun with friends and even strangers, isn't that a good thing for the game overall?

I smile as I imagine the rest of the group going "What? You don't have many pot?" followed by a lecture about how every decent melee should have the Many Pot feat to make life easier on the caster or divine. It would give a real meaning to the phrase "Drink a Pot"

Or such is my idealistic dream at this point.

mobrien316
04-19-2012, 10:00 PM
yes, and I do welcome Feedback, as such, let me take this moment to discuss what feedback is, There are several forums of Feedback or simply replying to a post that a player can give. There is a distinct yet subtle difference however between offering feedback and just posting a response.

The first and principal Form of Feedback is where they approach the idea, weigh it's merits upon what it affects, and discuss the points of the idea proposed and see how viable it is in it's own right. With this approach, as Jaid314 pointed out questions and concerns relating to the actual idea presented, revisions and changes can be made to fine tune and adjust an idea to be far more viable and thus feedback and reception are done with mutual resqpect and enjoyment of parties involved.

This is the type of feed back that anyone requesting feed back is seeking.

The other forms of replying are where you start to discuss subjects that have nothing to do with the idea proposed, IE:"I have this other better idea"

The problem with this is that this posting does not actually offer feedback to the idea proposed, it is the player using the topic as a sounding board for their own idea. While, sometimes welcomed in topics that are looking for players to just propose ideas and thoughts, it is not what is sought after when requesting feedback upon a specific idea. Which is what I was doing. So simply dolling out your own idea was in fact not offering feedback.

Now, what you did, was in your closing was flippantly dismiss the idea when you said: I shouldn't have to spend AP simply to drink a pot.

So it's pretty clear you have no intention to offer honest, helpful, or even actual feedback, so to be blunt, No, I don't welcome disruptive and dismissive posts like yours. I hope I have cleared up any misunderstanding you may have had on that question.

Now, quick note: When someone takes the time to link the Discussion that this idea triggered from, it would be nice if you took the time to actually go check out that link to see if what you are going to say has maybe, already been said, a few dozen times over just to see if your "Other Better Idea" may have already been beaten to death to the point that it pulverized horse byproduct.

With that, yes, I welcome your Feedback.

However, I do not welcome some argument or fight.

You posted an idea that players spend AP's in order to gain the ability to chug pots that offer greater healing than currently available (aside from Silver Flame pots, which have their own drawbacks.) My opinion of your idea (which you seemed to be asking for in your request for feedback) is that it would be simpler to just have potions of healing such as are already found in D&D.

Your idea of spending AP's for such improved healing is not a good one, in my opinion (and you seemed to be seeking other reader's opinions) because I don't think getting improved healing from pots should be something I need to spend AP's on.

If that offends you (and it certainly seemed to, based on your snarky PM to me) I apologize. From now on I will assume that your requests for feedback are simply requests for agreement and I will refrain from commenting unless I agree with you.

Meetch1972
04-20-2012, 12:03 AM
Whether it happens or not - if it does happen the feat shouldn't be "Many Pot". I believe it should be "Quaff". Would be nice if you could "quaff" X potions, and actually get the benefit of X/2 + random(X/2) of them, spilling the rest... :)

redspecter23
04-20-2012, 12:40 AM
I think an alternate idea could be an item, perhaps another exclusive symbiont that takes up a trinket slot. Every time you're hit, it gains a charge (starts at 0 and maxes at, say, 50). You can activate it at any time to drain all the charges and get a burst heal based on the charges used. In this way you can get a decent burst heal occasionally, but doing 2 or 3 back to back wouldn't be possible with this item alone. You could do smaller heals between fights, especially if you've invested in healing amp in order to keep yourself topped off.

The idea of a feat to quaff multiple pots is an interesting take on the issue. Perhaps a similar feat, but easier to code might just simply be a feat that doubles (or triples, dependent on balancing) your healing from potions? It could even be worked into an enhancement tree instead possibly. It accomplishes a very similar goal to what is outlined in the OP, but simplifies it down to the core (each quaff heals more).

Niv-mizzet
04-20-2012, 01:12 AM
I will always be of the opinion that any character that has not made build concessions for self-healing should not come even remotely close to being able to outheal a level-appropriate enemy in mid-combat.

That being said, I wouldn't mind people being able to use this ability outside of combat, say with an eating animation like tasty ham.

Or if the ability had a fairly severe cooldown.

I once played a smaller homebrewish BYOND game online for quite a while, and they had healing potions that were quite effective. Too effective. One person of any class could essentially "Potion tank" several enemies. (The player-base generally regarded this tactic to be cheesy and ridiculed those that used it, ESPECIALLY in PVP, which the game had a large amount of.) Eventually the dev of the game had to put in "thirst," a mechanic that decreased the amount healed to you by successive potions, and this mechanic only increased back to full over time spent NOT drinking potions.

Really I think my most preferred solution to your problem would be to have tasty hams be more accessible, and to have bigger, tastier hams, like Kargon's, that aren't amusingly rare.

letour
04-20-2012, 01:26 AM
Personnaly, I think melee should not have self-healing in combat, but out-combat so they can move on a different with all their strenght yes. My idea was to put heal/ repair skill more useful to melee. On this topic, http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=369444I put the idea but those skill change. Even if that idea is "weak" and not really worth to put on this skill a group of melee can self heal out of combat without the need healer or expensif pot(if you have the favor healer kit aren't that expensive). Healer, paladin, ranger and pots will still be good in combat and when zerging but careful could restore about all those pv and the one of his group with healer kits.

The only problem i see his those skill is cross-class skill for melee.:/

TheDjinnFor
04-20-2012, 01:34 AM
The other forms of replying are where you start to discuss subjects that have nothing to do with the idea proposed, IE:"I have this other better idea"

The problem with this is that this posting does not actually offer feedback to the idea proposed, it is the player using the topic as a sounding board for their own idea. While, sometimes welcomed in topics that are looking for players to just propose ideas and thoughts, it is not what is sought after when requesting feedback upon a specific idea. Which is what I was doing. So simply dolling out your own idea was in fact not offering feedback.

When you offer a solution to a problem, one method of determining the value of said solution is to contrast it with another solution to the problem. If someone proposes an idea that solves the problem more effectively than yours does, then the "feedback" that they are providing should be quite clear.

It is a very common way in many societies of evaluating the merits of an idea due to it's efficiency in practice; if you can't handle feedback of that form then I suggest you refrain from ever expressing your opinions at all in an open forum such as the internet.


I'm sorry I hurt your feelings so badly with my PM that you felt moved by whatever emotional damage I did to you to mention it here, I dearly regret any pain and undue suffering your may have endured because of it.

-1

Ungood
04-20-2012, 05:53 AM
I like the idea of starting as a class feat (as in toughness) and moving to improvement through AP cost. Chugging multi-pots would end some suffering for the pure melee (such as a barbarian).

Exactly, and that is my overall hope with this idea.

Ungood
04-20-2012, 06:15 AM
Whether it happens or not - if it does happen the feat shouldn't be "Many Pot". I believe it should be "Quaff". Would be nice if you could "quaff" X potions, and actually get the benefit of X/2 + random(X/2) of them, spilling the rest... :)

I am not married to the name, originally I was going to call it "Big Gulp" :D but, settled on Many Pot, as play on Many Shot.

Yah a skill check could be put in, to limit it's abuse in mid combat, now that you mention it. Perhaps a Fort Save to make sure you did not barf the potions back up, or even a Reflex save to make sure you did not drop them.

Like if you fail the save you only get half benefit, a "pot" style concentration check, I could get behind that.

grgurius
04-20-2012, 06:23 AM
Title is a bit misleading, it should be barbarian healing.

As for a feat idea, doesn't seem smart to me, wasting a feat just so you can drink 5 pots at the time. It would be better to get stronger healing pots, or to remove (or tone down) drawbacks from silver flame pots.

daniel7
04-20-2012, 06:47 AM
I don't think melees should be able to heal themselves without some kind of sacrifice. Now spending a feat is a sacrifice but this just hurts feat starved classes more. Barbarians and rogues won't spend the feat on it but fighters and monks might. Monks would benefit the most from this feat. A monk with high healing amp would basically be getting infinite LoH for themselves.

I would say no to this but if such a feat was available I think instead of drinking 5 pots it should be 1d4+1 pots and have a cool down timer...maybe 60 seconds. Expect a nerf to healing amp to follow shortly after this feat.

Ungood
04-20-2012, 06:57 AM
Your basic idea, namely better self-healing for melees has been shot down and beaten to death hundred times before.

Actually, self healing for melee is something that is acknowledged by the vast player base to be well overdue and it is widely if not overwhelming accepted that something needs to be done about it. So much so that players from top guilds that have more accomplishments then pretty much anyone in this game could hope to get feel that something needs to be done.

Thus the only real question at this point is: "What"


You realize, that with some easy-to-acquire healing amp this is an uninterruptable full-heal for many characters.

Noted, this has already been pointed by some of the previous feedback given by other posters, and they have offered some solutions to that very issue.

Talon_Moonshadow
04-20-2012, 07:03 AM
I have several ideas for melee healing help that I think they should start with before adding anything radical.

First: fix AC. And armor, to have meaning. I still like the armor DR idea. But at any rate, if you fix AC/armor to have meaning, then melees won't get beat up so much, and need so much healing.

Second: Heal skill should have an active component. I like a clickie that consumes a heal kit to give a very, very small HP over time buff. But there are many ways they can do something with the heal(repair) skill and make it help out melee guys more.

Then third is to add more higher lvl melee/heal options. Epic feats maybe.. more favor pots.... etc.

on a related note, I need to rechack the DM guide. Can lvl 4 spells be made into pots? Can we add Cure Critical pots?

They could also add named items with heal clickies on them.

Ungood
04-20-2012, 07:11 AM
I don't think melees should be able to heal themselves without some kind of sacrifice. Now spending a feat is a sacrifice but this just hurts feat starved classes more. Barbarians and rogues won't spend the feat on it but fighters and monks might. Monks would benefit the most from this feat. A monk with high healing amp would basically be getting infinite LoH for themselves.

I would say no to this but if such a feat was available I think instead of drinking 5 pots it should be 1d4+1 pots and have a cool down timer...maybe 60 seconds. Expect a nerf to healing amp to follow shortly after this feat.

Ooo good catch, I had not thought of how it would affect monks with their healing amp.

I was more thinking more about how this would affect fighters and barbs, and even a barb would give up a feat to take some self healing, and could easily talk to Fred and swap it out later once they made cap or SF pots became available to them if they felt it was not worth it at the higher levels.

But, I was thinking to revise the numbers to say 3 for the feat and then 2 AP per extra pot that could be chugged, up to a max of 7 extra pots (14 AP spent), but with the point you made, perhaps have it so that different classes cap a different numbers of pots, like how Toughness works currently, some classes can get more levels of toughness enhancements then others. You need so many levels of a single class to unlock as well.

Since Monks have their own line of recovery (heal amp) maybe a tighter restriction on them, like maybe have it so monks Cap at only 5 pots max (Feat + 2 Enchantments), because their heal amp can really carry them. Maybe have Pallies, Rangers, Rogues, cap at 7 and Barbs and Fighters cap at 10.

Great point! This really does open up things to consider. I felt the number was pretty high on that 20, but, when you start to mention how it might affect some classes with their built in abilities, I can see where the numbers would need to be tweaked.

I also am becoming more partial to the idea of a "Save" needing to be rolled if used in combat or while getting hit, like a Reflex save to see if the player drops their pots while trying to chug them.

Thank you.

grgurius
04-20-2012, 07:22 AM
Ooo good catch, I had not thought of how it would affect monks with their healing amp.

I was more thinking more about how this would affect fighters and barbs, and even a barb would give up a feat to take some self healing, and could easily talk to Fred and swap it out later once they made cap or SF pots became available to them if they felt it was not worth it at the higher levels.

But, I was thinking to revise the numbers to say 3 for the feat and then 2 AP per extra pot that could be chugged, up to a max of 7 extra pots (14 AP spent), but with the point you made, perhaps have it so that different classes cap a different numbers of pots, like how Toughness works currently, some classes can get more levels of toughness enhancements then others. You need so many levels of a single class to unlock as well.

Since Monks have their own line of recovery (heal amp) maybe a tighter restriction on them, like maybe have it so monks Cap at only 5 pots max (Feat + 2 Enchantments), because their heal amp can really carry them. Maybe have Pallies, Rangers, Rogues, cap at 7 and Barbs and Fighters cap at 10.

Great point! This really does open up things to consider. I felt the number was pretty high on that 20, but, when you start to mention how it might affect some classes with their built in abilities, I can see where the numbers would need to be tweaked.

I also am becoming more partial to the idea of a "Save" needing to be rolled if used in combat or while getting hit, like a Reflex save to see if the player drops their pots while trying to chug them.

Thank you.

Now, this is the part where your idea falls apart. Why are you capping a defensive ability for some classes, just because certain class (lets say monks) could get bigger benefits from it (game breaking even), but you are not capping, lets say barbarians offensive abilities.

Point is, there are some trade offs for everything, including self healing. So if you decided that you don't need healing amp on your barbarian that's your choice, trade off is smaller survivability for more dps. That's why i think that this talk about melee self healing is a bit mislabeled, its more about barbarian self healing, and to lesser extent fighter self healing.

Ungood
04-20-2012, 07:26 AM
Then third is to add more higher lvl melee/heal options. Epic feats maybe.. more favor pots.... etc.

I should point this out that I am not proposing this idea for end game, as High Level Builds are not in any need of Help, with ample Healing Amp, Epic Gear, and SF pots open to them, they are quite well off.

My Idea was more designed to target the mid level range, typically boosting self healing for Melee from around level 5 to around 16th-ish, where they should be looking into getting SF favor, and serious Heal Amp items, if they still want to chug endless pots, I am not against that, I just think it should become somewhat ineffective at that point.

Great point and ideas, At this point, I think I need to revise my OP.

Thank you.

Heladron
04-20-2012, 07:38 AM
This is an interesting discussion...Such a feat should be costly for those wishing to have it so it probably shouldn't toggle. There has to be balance. No more easy buttons please. In for a penny in for a pound. With the right implementation if might be useful the have.

I'm not for or against said feat but this is a fun academic discussion.

daniel7
04-20-2012, 08:10 AM
The only way this feat could be added without changing the game much would be to make it a feat that all players have that is only available when soloing, and perhaps also if you are the only member alive in the quest. Toggle the feat on and off like a stance.

In my opinion it's better then a hireling and would allow a melee to start a quest as soon as he logs on. This would,however, still change the game. Hireling sells would decrease and it will further encourage soloing so you might see a decrease in LfMs. This might Give more incentive for TRs to solo, at least until their guilders log in.

Infant
04-20-2012, 08:14 AM
Actually, self healing for melee is something that is acknowledged by the vast player base to be well overdue and it is widely if not overwhelming accepted that something needs to be done about it. So much so that players from top guilds that have more accomplishments then pretty much anyone in this game could hope to get feel that something needs to be done.


With the same validity I can say:

Actually, self healing for melee is something that is acknowledged by the vast player base to be ok as it is and it is widely if not overwhelming accepted that nothing needs to be done about it. So much so that players from top guilds that have more accomplishments then pretty much anyone in this game could hope to get feel that nothing needs to be done.

Infant

Ungood
04-20-2012, 08:28 AM
With the same validity I can say:

Actually, self healing for melee is something that is acknowledged by the vast player base to be ok as it is and it is widely if not overwhelming accepted that nothing needs to be done about it. So much so that players from top guilds that have more accomplishments then pretty much anyone in this game could hope to get feel that nothing needs to be done.

Infant

No you can't, as your support would be where?

You see Mine is linked in the OP, handy little ability to link your support right in a topic, for reference Carpone is an Officer of Over Raided, the first level 100 Guild in the game, with more records set and held by his guild then most could imagine.

If someone like that gives build advice or questing advice you would be dense not to listen to them, and if they say "Hey, Melee could use some self healing at the mid levels" you would be blind not to take that to heart.

Did you really believe that this was just my opinion? I saw what others have said, and as opposed to whining, complaining, or sticking my head in the sand saying nothing is wrong, I try to propose solutions to the problems I see that tend to be reoccurring.

Attack me if you want for that if makes you feel like a big man, but at least I am trying to do something productive.

grgurius
04-20-2012, 08:38 AM
And Your support would be where? mine is linked in the OP. ;)

Actually, after reading trough that thread, think Infants statement is closer to truth. In that thread, its not acknowledged by vast player base, most of them were saying that you need to sacrifice something for selfhealing, especially players from top guilds, and your idea about manypot was treated as a joke in that thread.

Infant
04-20-2012, 08:58 AM
No you can't, as your support would be where?

This not the first time this topic appears and every time there are enough vets voting for both sides of the argument.



reference Carpone is an Officer of Over Raided, the first level 100 Guild in the game, with more records set and held by his guild then most could imagine.
I'm not on Orien. I am very glad for Carpone and OR. I can imagine they are a bunch of very good players with vast gaming experience.


If someone like that gives build advice or questing advice you would be dense not to listen to them, and if they say "Hey, Melee could use some self healing at the mid levels" you would be blind not to take that to heart.
Axer (Shade) is a very experienced veteran. AFAIK he played this game (almost) since beta (not sure here though). Not only have I heard of his accomplishments, but also have I witnessed him doing amazing things in game. Do his accomplishments and in-game skills mean that we should implement all of his suggestions concerning class balance? No, imho (though there are some which I consider reasonable).

Besides, my dad is a professor, my mom has a PhD, my uncle works for NASA and I could solve quadratic equation in my head as a child.



Did you really believe that this was just my opinion? I saw what others have said, and as opposed to whining, complaining, or sticking my head in the sand Opposed? Sorry, but this is exactly what it looks like for me.

Infant

Ungood
04-20-2012, 09:04 AM
Besides, my dad is a professor, my mom has a PhD, my uncle works for NASA and I could solve quadratic equation in my head as a child.

Right. Well, thanks for your contribution to this thread, your opinion is noted.

Thrudh
04-20-2012, 09:13 AM
Actually, self healing for melee is something that is acknowledged by the vast player base to be well overdue and it is widely if not overwhelming accepted that something needs to be done about it.

LOL.

Gallup has done a poll, have they?

Although I like this suggestion much better than your previous suggestions (because at least investing in a feat and some AP is a trade-off instead of free healing), I still don't think there's any current problem with melee self-healing.

If you want a melee to be able to self-heal, build him that way. It's not hard. Really, it's not hard.

Also, your replies to other people are extremely snarky. You need to tone it down.

Thrudh
04-20-2012, 09:13 AM
With the same validity I can say:

Actually, self healing for melee is something that is acknowledged by the vast player base to be ok as it is and it is widely if not overwhelming accepted that nothing needs to be done about it.

Exactly. :)

Talon_Moonshadow
04-20-2012, 10:02 AM
I should point this out that I am not proposing this idea for end game, as High Level Builds are not in any need of Help, with ample Healing Amp, Epic Gear, and SF pots open to them, they are quite well off.

My Idea was more designed to target the mid level range, typically boosting self healing for Melee from around level 5 to around 16th-ish, where they should be looking into getting SF favor, and serious Heal Amp items, if they still want to chug endless pots, I am not against that, I just think it should become somewhat ineffective at that point.

Great point and ideas, At this point, I think I need to revise my OP.

Thank you.

Well, a Ftr 20 or Brb 20, should be able to solo something without spending a fortune, or spending half of their time in a dungeon trying to heal up...

You are right that the high lvl guys do have resources, but Silver Flame pots are very expensive, and are a significant handicap to many builds.

CSW pots are also expensive.... especially when every single monster in the dungeon does at least 100 Hp of damage to you, before it dies.

So it's not just for melees to have a method of self-healing, it's also about having a low cost option....

My Rgr can kite and take little damage. And he can use wands which are dirt cheap.
Casters can kil at range, and have mass CC options.

What melees are suppose to have is Armor! to keep them from getting hurt. At high lvls that is not really an option right now.

Now, you can build and grind out a very self sufficient melee guy. But I just think there should be other options...... at least to help out a little.

But... you are right, the middle levels are even worse. They have fewer options then to be self sufficient.

The TRs have even more desire to solo stuff at middle lvls of the game.

Talon_Moonshadow
04-20-2012, 10:20 AM
I propably should say that I do like the idea of feats to help for self healing....especially Epic feats.

Epic feats can break the D&D rules for what a mortal man (lvl 1-20) can do.

While a lvl 1-20 Ftr posseses no magic to self heal, an Epic Ftr can do things a mortal man cannot.

Epic feats can be used to solve a lot of issues.

An Epic Rogue could SA a Construct for instance, while a mortal Rogue could never do such a thing.

Turbine has a chance here with epic lvls to allow players to overtcome some of the restrictions in the lvl 1-20 D&D design.

Thrudh
04-20-2012, 10:25 AM
You see Mine is linked in the OP, handy little ability to link your support right in a topic, for reference Carpone is an Officer of Over Raided, the first level 100 Guild in the game, with more records set and held by his guild then most could imagine.

If someone like that gives build advice or questing advice you would be dense not to listen to them, and if they say "Hey, Melee could use some self healing at the mid levels" you would be blind not to take that to heart.

Actually, I find that elite guilds are the worst at building self-sufficient characters. Their builds are focused on end-game capabilities and are min\maxed. They usually run in guild groups, where every role is covered. They don't usually run in PUGs. I run my melee in the 1-19 game quite often without a healer or a caster. I've learned to be self-sufficient over the years, so I don't have to wait for a perfect group or a particular class.

My recently TRed AC character has carried several elite guild barbarian soulstones to the shrine while I was leveling, because these guys build for max DPS only, because that is what is most useful in epics and end-game raids. Their characters WILL be more powerful than mine at level 20... but I am always the one who is still alive in a level 16 quest gone bad.

Chai
04-20-2012, 10:52 AM
Actually, I find that elite guilds are the worst at building self-sufficient characters. Their builds are focused on end-game capabilities and are min\maxed. They usually run in guild groups, where every role is covered. They don't usually run in PUGs. I run my melee in the 1-19 game quite often without a healer or a caster. I've learned to be self-sufficient over the years, so I don't have to wait for a perfect group or a particular class.

My recently TRed AC character has carried several elite guild barbarian soulstones to the shrine while I was leveling, because these guys build for max DPS only, because that is what is most useful in epics and end-game raids. Their characters WILL be more powerful than mine at level 20... but I am always the one who is still alive in a level 16 quest gone bad.

This.

Then they complain we need more self healing for those with no blue bar when they dont even use most of the self healing that is currently available in the game, through building it into their toon, getting silver flame favor, or both. Building for one thing and one thing only is what causes the issue. It not because self healing isnt available - its because what is available doesnt get used.

danotmano1998
04-20-2012, 10:53 AM
So what I brought up was an idea for Feat called "Many Pot" (a play on Many Shot) which would allow melee's to be able to drink more then one potion at a time. .

Wow.. really out of the box thinking idea!
Nice one.

Not here to debate it's viability, rather just wanted to give kudos on an original, cool thought.
+1

Chai
04-20-2012, 10:58 AM
Well, a Ftr 20 or Brb 20, should be able to solo something without spending a fortune, or spending half of their time in a dungeon trying to heal up...

You are right that the high lvl guys do have resources, but Silver Flame pots are very expensive, and are a significant handicap to many builds.

CSW pots are also expensive.... especially when every single monster in the dungeon does at least 100 Hp of damage to you, before it dies.

So it's not just for melees to have a method of self-healing, it's also about having a low cost option....

Hirelings.


My Rgr can kite and take little damage. And he can use wands which are dirt cheap.
Casters can kil at range, and have mass CC options.

What melees are suppose to have is Armor! to keep them from getting hurt. At high lvls that is not really an option right now.

Now, you can build and grind out a very self sufficient melee guy. But I just think there should be other options...... at least to help out a little.

But... you are right, the middle levels are even worse. They have fewer options then to be self sufficient.

The TRs have even more desire to solo stuff at middle lvls of the game.

All this desire to make everything easily solo-able on the highest difficulty settings with minimal resources lately is going way overboard.

Havok.cry
04-20-2012, 11:47 AM
I like the OPs idea. The idea of better healing for non healing classes via feat/AP costs I think is a good one.

As to the it argument that it will make soloing even better over parties. I disagree. I party with people I enjoy spending time with. I do not party with people that can't help themselves. Our group dynamic is that we all have fun together no matter what we play. Requiring someone to be playing certain classes for us to get by would damage our enjoyment of the game. However allowing the classes who have a weakness in self sufficiency, to shore up that weakness, at a cost, would enhance our enjoyment of grouping together. As this would be available to puggers as well it would make it more likely for us to occasionally pug as well, due to the greater ability for people to self heal.

SiliconScout
04-20-2012, 11:52 AM
Honestly I think this, in the end, will hurt grouping far more than help it.

You are all but eliminating the need / usefulness of a Cleric in a group. FvS can toss out the DPS so will retain some use but Clerics, are are already getting a pretty rough ride.

As it is now we already get treated pretty much like personal pocket clerics, the level of gratitude / respect has dropped dramatically over the last year. With nobody "needing" us it's just going to get worse.

Better solution is to toss out the SF pot penalty (or reduce it) and maybe add some basic DR to armour (possibly with feat and enhancement lines).

Something simple like

Light = 5%
Med = 10%
Heavy=15%

Let it stack with shields and suddenly sword n board is a lot more attractive (40% DR with Tower Shield). Less damage means less need to heal, means less need for that "easy button" self healing for builds not designed for it.

Tholar
04-20-2012, 12:34 PM
Must be held in the off hand in order to use the "many pot" feat.

http://www.spirithalloween.com/images/spirit/products/processed/00579128.zoom.a.jpg

Niv-mizzet
04-20-2012, 01:23 PM
First: fix AC. And armor, to have meaning. I still like the armor DR idea. But at any rate, if you fix AC/armor to have meaning, then melees won't get beat up so much, and need so much healing.


I have the darndest time trying to get people to understand that the issues are all linked. It's like that song "There's a hole in the bucket."

AC doesn't work at high levels* --> melees don't build for it --> melees have no AC --> melees take a lot of damage --> melees need a lot of healing --> healer realizes he can just blade barrier solo everything easier --> no healers for the melees --> melees realize they need some kind of statistic or something that could decrease incoming damage. They could call it like..."armor class." --> melees think 5 seconds about actually trying for AC and then remember: --> AC doesn't work at high levels*

*statement assumes you are not playing a "full ****** AC" build.

On a similar note, classes who are intended to have horrible AC *casters cough cough* make out like bandits in the meantime, because their AC is just as good as the other 90% of builds who get hit on 2's.

The little issues here and there all link together if you look at the big .jpg

Jaid314
04-20-2012, 01:37 PM
I like the OPs idea. The idea of better healing for non healing classes via feat/AP costs I think is a good one.

As to the it argument that it will make soloing even better over parties. I disagree. I party with people I enjoy spending time with. I do not party with people that can't help themselves. Our group dynamic is that we all have fun together no matter what we play. Requiring someone to be playing certain classes for us to get by would damage our enjoyment of the game. However allowing the classes who have a weakness in self sufficiency, to shore up that weakness, at a cost, would enhance our enjoyment of grouping together. As this would be available to puggers as well it would make it more likely for us to occasionally pug as well, due to the greater ability for people to self heal.

and yet, there *are* options to shore up their weakness (poor self-healing) at a cost. most choose not to take it.

who's fault is it for ignoring the options that already exist? UMD, splashing other classes, playing other classes that are similar in the first place, getting good enough AC to reduce *some* incoming damage *and yes, this is possible without massive investment), not standing in the middle of a huge group of enemies getting beaten senseless on every side, trying to not pull every single monster in the dungeon to come kill you all at the same time...

there are tons of things you can do to increase survivability on a melee without giving them the equivalent of a heal scroll that doesn't require gear swaps and can't be interrupted.

the fact that people are not choosing to do any of those things is the problem, not that those things don't exist. people don't *want* to pay the cost. *that* is the problem. they want it for free. they want all the stuff that other classes get, but they want it without the drawbacks that those other classes accept to get those benefits. they want to have their full DPS of a fighter or barbarian while also having the full self-healing available to a ranger or a paladin with a couple of feats invested in it.

Ungood
04-20-2012, 05:05 PM
Actually, I find that elite guilds are the worst at building self-sufficient characters. Their builds are focused on end-game capabilities and are min\maxed. They usually run in guild groups, where every role is covered. They don't usually run in PUGs. I run my melee in the 1-19 game quite often without a healer or a caster. I've learned to be self-sufficient over the years, so I don't have to wait for a perfect group or a particular class.

I have no argument with the idea that many top tier players players feel that the 1 - 19 is a grind, or more to the point a speed bump to where the real action is, something that OR can do in roughly 24 hours, and I think they may still hold the speed record for leveling from 1 - 19 on a multi-TR toon, I know they have the honor of having the first completionist since U12 came out. There is no question regarding if these people know what it takes to level, many times over.

As far as soloing goes, well Shataan, gives a good view of what soloing can do, and what these players are able to accomplish, when he soloed eLords with his fighter, I believe you mentioned him in our last exchange as an example of what a solo melee build could do. So these people are no strangers to survivor builds.

Now, given Carpone is an officer in their guild, and has access to their insight and candid feelings these top tier players may have about the game, and lets be honest, they would not share their feelings with the masses here, just too much strife to even try to that, I saw the responses that Key got on his advice topic.

In that front, I'm included to believe these people know what they are talking about and if they say, "Hey! Melee could use some healing boons around the mid levels"

Well, that's good enough for me to believe that there just might be something wrong.

Personally, I hunt in static groups or raids with my fighter, so I have no issues at all with healing, but then again, I have zero requirement or expectation to be self sufficient either. All my other builds are casters or ridiculously self sufficient builds able to toss heal scrolls and getting some good heal amp. so personally I don't actually see the problem, beyond not enjoying playing a one dimensional toon like a fighter, but I posses the wisdom to realize that simply because I do not see it, does not mean it is not there. Does it Surprise you to realize that, I would barely benefit from this idea at all?

But, I was told there was a problem by players that I respect, so I proposed some solutions.

Do I really have a care that someone tells me they don't think their a problem, well. I am not suggesting this so that posters feel this topic is some sounding board to berate me with some "Well I don't think there is a problem", why are you even bothering to be honest? What do you hope to accomplish, to annoy me? Upset me, tick me off?

Maybe I am being a bit snarky about that, but I'll be honestly, giving me your feelings on the state of the game, is kinda rude when I all I am asking is "What do you think of this idea?"

/Not signed would be enough and astonishingly polite.

WruntJunior
04-20-2012, 05:17 PM
Actually, I find that elite guilds are the worst at building self-sufficient characters. Their builds are focused on end-game capabilities and are min\maxed. They usually run in guild groups, where every role is covered. They don't usually run in PUGs. I run my melee in the 1-19 game quite often without a healer or a caster. I've learned to be self-sufficient over the years, so I don't have to wait for a perfect group or a particular class.

My recently TRed AC character has carried several elite guild barbarian soulstones to the shrine while I was leveling, because these guys build for max DPS only, because that is what is most useful in epics and end-game raids. Their characters WILL be more powerful than mine at level 20... but I am always the one who is still alive in a level 16 quest gone bad.

I feel this bears repeating again. A lot of barbarians in top-end guilds may be able to heal at level 20 just fine with silver flame pots...but they tend to build their characters purely for being a DPS (and sometimes a tank) for end-game raids and epics. They may fill those roles well...but self-healing while leveling (just like AC while leveling, among other things) comes at a sacrifice...though in all fairness, barbarians get shafted a bit there because of barbarian rage with things like wands and scrolls.

The solution I believe best fits is things like making the heal skill good for out-of-combat healing, and adding better pots (cure crit pots with a cl in the teens would be awesome) for filling the self-healing gap between ~10-12 and 20 for a barbarian (and other melees). This does not overpower the classes (in fact, it only provides moderate increase to in-combat healing...with the best increase being to out-of-combat healing), as more powerful self-healing is already obtainable around level 14-15 (though at the cost of 10 to every stat other than con for a short amount of time), although it is often not obtained until near or at cap. More options that are not overly powerful are good - options such as drinking 20 cure serious pots at once cross into the territory of way too powerful (curing ~360 damage at once that can't be interrupted, that come in stacks of effectively 5 for a trivial cost, and with no significant penalty is way more powerful than Silver Flame Pots...and that's not good for the game). Even 10 cure serious pots at once is mid-way between lesser silver flame pots and normal ones, while having again no significant penalty tied to it (and in addition, the stacks are the same effective size, since 100 cure serious pots = 10 10-pot chugs).

In addition, the feat as listed in the updated OP is heavily biased towards barbarians, which is NOT good. Rangers and Paladins already tend to give up 1-2 feats for their self-healing....taking this instead shouldn't give them significantly LESS benefit. Furthermore, classes such as monks don't even inherently HAVE better self-healing than barbarians (though they do have the option to build for it...but like a barbarian, if they want to maximize their damage, they will not inherently have it), yet you still want to cap their ability to self-heal through this. Healing amp might be a good reason if you intended this feat for cap (but probably still wouldn't be)...but for leveling, it doesn't really fit.

Overall, this just feels like a rather clunky system that would need heavy balancing when a more elegant solution should already be available, in the form of better cure pots and better out-of-combat healing.

Ungood
04-20-2012, 05:23 PM
In addition, the feat as listed in the updated OP is heavily biased towards barbarians, which is NOT good.

How so?

WruntJunior
04-20-2012, 05:32 PM
How so?

I'd accidentally submitted the post before I was through typing...my response is now updated.

Ungood
04-20-2012, 08:41 PM
I'd accidentally submitted the post before I was through typing...my response is now updated.

Ok cool. No problem.


In addition, the feat as listed in the updated OP is heavily biased towards barbarians, which is NOT good. Rangers and Paladins already tend to give up 1-2 feats for their self-healing....taking this instead shouldn't give them significantly LESS benefit. Furthermore, classes such as monks don't even inherently HAVE better self-healing than barbarians (though they do have the option to build for it...but like a barbarian, if they want to maximize their damage, they will not inherently have it), yet you still want to cap their ability to self-heal through this. Healing amp might be a good reason if you intended this feat for cap (but probably still wouldn't be)...but for leveling, it doesn't really fit.

Overall, this just feels like a rather clunky system that would need heavy balancing when a more elegant solution should already be available, in the form of better cure pots and better out-of-combat healing.

Well, not the way I envisioned it, but good points and a solid critique of the idea. Allow me to address a few points however.

Monks: I was first thinking and proposed a flat number for all melee, but another poster pointing out that if Monks were able to drink higher quantities of potions in conjunction with their ability to acquire high healing amp, it would be over powering to the point of outright game breaking at the higher levels. So they needed to be scaled back to keep them more balanced, and it makes sense they would need to be reigned in a bit, to keep this feat from being grossly over powered in regards to their class.

No ploy or plot on my part in that regard.

Paladins and Rangers: I'll be honest, I never intended for this feat to replace their already existing healing abilities, at best I considered that is may supplement it, perhaps as opposed to taking meta-magics they could opt to chug pots, I'm Not saying which is better, but the choice would be there for them. Paladins specifically get a boon because they can get decent heal amp in the lower levels, starting at 6th with HotD, which would give them an edge in the short and mid level run, making this feat for pallies very attractive, perhaps swapped out in the later levels, depending upon the build of course.

The Reflex Save: I mentioned a reflex save for in combat chugging, I chose this style of save specifically, because Barbs and Fighters are principal Fortitude saves, with a lower reflex, and thus they would need to make gear swaps and other sacrifices to have a high enough reflex to able to chug pots in combat, this option to take a Reflex save favors Paladins and Monks who have naturally high all around saves, along with Rangers and Rogues that have higher Reflex saves.

In that regard, I was trying to make the feat more balanced across all the melee builds, as opposed to showing blanket favoritism.

Thank you for your post, it was well thought out a honest objection. I hope I have addressed your concerns.

Talon_Moonshadow
04-20-2012, 08:48 PM
I have the darndest time trying to get people to understand that the issues are all linked. It's like that song "There's a hole in the bucket."

AC doesn't work at high levels* --> melees don't build for it --> melees have no AC --> melees take a lot of damage --> melees need a lot of healing --> healer realizes he can just blade barrier solo everything easier --> no healers for the melees --> melees realize they need some kind of statistic or something that could decrease incoming damage. They could call it like..."armor class." --> melees think 5 seconds about actually trying for AC and then remember: --> AC doesn't work at high levels*

*statement assumes you are not playing a "full ****** AC" build.

On a similar note, classes who are intended to have horrible AC *casters cough cough* make out like bandits in the meantime, because their AC is just as good as the other 90% of builds who get hit on 2's.

The little issues here and there all link together if you look at the big .jpg

I agree.

And they have also aded things that PnP did not have. (SP) that end up making non-melee guys more powerful than they should be.

These things do make the game more fun, but leaves the melee guys in the dust...

also monster AI is a biggie.
I should never be able to repeatedly run through a blade barrier with a monster following me. (actually... I should be able to run through a blade barrier whether or not a monster is chasing me!)

not that I want these things changed... I like DDO mostly the way it is.
But a few tweaks could help iron out some of the issues.

Armor is supposed to mean something.
We have a high magic world, with Master Artificers who make incredible things...
not so far fetched to have a Knight with some means or patching up his wounds effectively.

But... if his armor actually protected him from harm.....

Talon_Moonshadow
04-20-2012, 08:58 PM
Hirelings.



All this desire to make everything easily solo-able on the highest difficulty settings with minimal resources lately is going way overboard.

I agree with you...sorta.

We have hirlings... they work pretty well IMO. And they are cheap.

I also think this is a team game and do not want to see it changed so that everyone can solo everything.... especially on a toon that does nothing but swings an axe around and expects to be able to complete every quest that way..


But... people like to solo.
TRs especially.

and many classes do not need a hirling to do so.

Clr.. self heal with spells.
FVs
Brd
WF Wiz, Sor
Wiz PM....

Rgrs and Pallies have minor healing spells, that can be beefed up pretty good. + cheap wands.

Rgrs have a kiting option.

Rogs have UMD, so while Heal scrolls are expensive they are an option (for higher lvl Rogues anyway)

Monks can do a little self healing with Ki. Plus they can actually get a useful AC sometimes.

Ftrs and especially Barbs just seem kinda screwed out of what other clases can do with ease....

Yeah, they get muscles and DPS, but I think they deserve a few more options.

Chai
04-20-2012, 09:09 PM
Ftrs and especially Barbs just seem kinda screwed out of what other clases can do with ease....

Yeah, they get muscles and DPS, but I think they deserve a few more options.

Those options already exist. People need to use the options they have before we just start making it super easy for everyone to heal whenever they want.

The only barbarians and fighters who do not have a self healing option or two are the ones who were built to not have that option. They are the best DPS because they built to be good at one thing. They excel in their one role on guild raids.

This game has already gone too far in giving casters good healing options. Way too far.

Why even play a ranger or paladin then if fighters and barbs just start being able to heal as well as they do? Fighters make higher DPS melee and or archers than rangers do. What do rangers get in return? A few buffs and a cure spell that can be amped up into the mid 200s. Potions can already be heal amped into the low 100s. SFP already makes it so they can self heal. Fighters arent being screwed out of anything. Its a trade off, and if pure melee just get handed more options its the hybrids getting screwed.

HatsuharuZ
04-20-2012, 11:30 PM
I like the idea of giving melees more healing options. However, I would rather do it by using things that already exist in the game, like modifying how the heal and repair skills work, or adding more potent potions.

Havok.cry
04-21-2012, 01:01 AM
Someone mentioned making the heal and repair skills more relevant, and I like that Idea more than the OPs idea. Here is my proposal:

Add the heal/repair skill to the amount healed by a potion. Or some percentage. This would make existing super potions like SF pots even better as well.

@ the argument that fighter barb self healing steps on pally/ranger toes, I think fighters and barbs should get better self heals, AND pallies and rangers should get better DPS

Jaid314
04-21-2012, 03:15 AM
Someone mentioned making the heal and repair skills more relevant, and I like that Idea more than the OPs idea. Here is my proposal:

Add the heal/repair skill to the amount healed by a potion. Or some percentage. This would make existing super potions like SF pots even better as well.

@ the argument that fighter barb self healing steps on pally/ranger toes, I think fighters and barbs should get better self heals, AND pallies and rangers should get better DPS

i think fighters and barbarians, as the primarily pure DPS focused classes, should go back to having more DPS than sorcerers and wizards over the long term, personally. but that's neither here nor there (frankly, i don't recall ever having to switch from my caster to a melee DPS char to get the job done, for example).

Ungood
04-21-2012, 06:28 AM
A unique and solid idea that fixes the problem? Is that honestly what you think your idea is?

I really shouldn't need to explain this, but, If I didn't think this was a solution to the problem I was presented with, I wouldn't have posted it. That should be self evident.


That's a good question, actually. What are you trying to accomplish? Do you hope that the developers will listen to you, possibly implement your idea?

Yes, exactly, That would precisely what I hope to accomplish. It's Very simple and easy to understand motive, it also happens to be why people generally propose ideas on this forum to begin with.

The question I have back at you at this moment is: What else is there that I could be hoping to accomplish with presenting this idea?


But, of course, you're not here for feedback, are you?

The fact that I edited my OP based on what other posters have suggested and their feedback, proves you dreadfully wrong. But then again, you have not given any feedback nor are you here to do so.


If so, do you understand that if the developers actually listened to you and implemented your idea, then it's actually very, very important that the "problem" that your "solution" is trying to solve actually exists? Because, of course, your proposed solution would affect most of the players who play the game.So, You say, "No Problem".


What he thinks of the idea is that it's pointless and useless, because it's trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. Of course, he was putting that very politely.Again you Say, "No Problem"


See, here's someone who actually understands the real problem. Right now melee classes have high DPS but require constant healing during combat to dish it out, whereas casters have somewhat lower DPS but can dish it out while either keeping themselves alive or just avoiding damage entirely.And here you say "This is the Problem" presented it in a nutshell as well.


What you need to do is find a third differential to modify, one that's not so tied together like damage output and survivability are. Sustainability from out of combat healing is one such differential, but there are better solutions that have been discussed extensively in these forums.Now, while this posses the illusion of solid insight, abet wrong, but still decent effort. I am pondering, Why are you mentioning solutions to a problem that, by your own admission, does not exist, unless, you know, it really does exist and you're just being argumentative for the sake of it.

What a waste really. What do you ever hope to accomplish with posts like this? Beyond Trolling and stirring up conflict, I see no reason for your post to exist at all, apparently I attract trolls to my posts for some odd reason or another,

And for the record, I am well aware of many solutions have been presented to this "problem" that you say does not exist.

Some of them fun and enjoyable, and many I have supported and Discussed (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4382798&postcount=74) at length, In fact, if someone wants to start another topic about how to make bigger pots, or what have you, feel free to do so, in fact, I encourage you to do.

Why anyone feels inclined to go to someone else's topic and say "I have this other idea that I wanted to talk about, I'll just hijack and derail your thread with it" I have no idea, I find it rather rude to be honest.

Aesop
04-21-2012, 10:05 AM
on a related note, I need to rechack the DM guide. Can lvl 4 spells be made into pots? Can we add Cure Critical pots?

Brew Potion caps out at 3rd level spells...

HOWEVER. Craft Wondrous Items can make Elixirs that don't have a level cap.


This brings up crafting a bit so... Perhaps adding in some Potion Crafting Recipes even if they are just Stone of Change recipes.

Someone brought something like that earlier. 100 clw = 10 cmw = 1 csw = 1/10 ccw = 1/100 heal

maybe for the ccw and heal you need some dragon shard fragments or something.

maybe you can Empower potions for with other dragon shard chunks of various sizes and number based on the power and number of the potions.

maybe khyber shards condense the pots to the next level of healing and siberys dragon shards apply empower.


Maybe the Feat Self Sufficient should add +2 heal and repair and increase Healing Amp and Repair Amp by 10% or something.

I'm not sure Chug or Quaff or Many Pot or what ever you want to call it ... as written would help the issue and would likely cause a larger issue.

If you really want something in that vein though I'd rework it to something slightly different.

Instead of Drinking x potions at the same time, make it reduce/eliminate the potion cooldown and add in the better healing pots.

Talon is right though better damage mitigation options for melee would be better than superior healing options. It would make more sense in terms of verisimilitude.

Other healing options though would be to add in access to some of the abilities in Tome of Battle.

Also for between combats application of a Healing Kit could increase Healing Amplification for a short while, say 20 sec, during which pots would be more effective. This could either be based on the + associated with the Kit (+1 would be 5% maybe) or based on the overall skill of the one that applied the kit (could get heavy if someone built with that in mind with a 50 skill)

Aesop

Ungood
04-21-2012, 12:38 PM
Brew Potion caps out at 3rd level spells...

HOWEVER. Craft Wondrous Items can make Elixirs that don't have a level cap.


This brings up crafting a bit so... Perhaps adding in some Potion Crafting Recipes even if they are just Stone of Change recipes.

Someone brought something like that earlier. 100 clw = 10 cmw = 1 csw = 1/10 ccw = 1/100 heal

maybe for the ccw and heal you need some dragon shard fragments or something.

maybe you can Empower potions for with other dragon shard chunks of various sizes and number based on the power and number of the potions.

maybe khyber shards condense the pots to the next level of healing and siberys dragon shards apply empower.


Maybe the Feat Self Sufficient should add +2 heal and repair and increase Healing Amp and Repair Amp by 10% or something.

I'm not sure Chug or Quaff or Many Pot or what ever you want to call it ... as written would help the issue and would likely cause a larger issue.

If you really want something in that vein though I'd rework it to something slightly different.

Instead of Drinking x potions at the same time, make it reduce/eliminate the potion cooldown and add in the better healing pots.

Talon is right though better damage mitigation options for melee would be better than superior healing options. It would make more sense in terms of verisimilitude.

Other healing options though would be to add in access to some of the abilities in Tome of Battle.

Also for between combats application of a Healing Kit could increase Healing Amplification for a short while, say 20 sec, during which pots would be more effective. This could either be based on the + associated with the Kit (+1 would be 5% maybe) or based on the overall skill of the one that applied the kit (could get heavy if someone built with that in mind with a 50 skill)

Aesop

Help me out, because, I might be under a misunderstanding as I was explained some things when this idea came up before, but, and correct me if I am wrong here.

If they put in a combo of stronger heal potions with no side effects, with more heal amp, open to everyone equally wouldn't this just serve to make casters even more over powered then they currently are, especially divines?

Aesop
04-21-2012, 01:05 PM
Help me out, because, I might be under a misunderstanding as I was explained some things when this idea came up before, but, and correct me if I am wrong here.

If they put in a combo of stronger heal potions with no side effects, with more heal amp, open to everyone equally wouldn't this just serve to make casters even more over powered then they currently are, especially divines?

Nope. Simply stated the divines already have the healing they need. Even if they run out of sp they can still heal with Echoes of Power. If that's not enough they can down a Mana pot and toss out Heals and other high level stuffs.

Craftable Pots would just open better healing to those that don't already have it and make it a little easier on those that like to solo or who value self sufficiency.

Craftable pots would help at least bridge the gap between low level healing pots and the SF Heal Pots. After all we aren't talking about having craftable pots that come close to the SF pots in terms of straight healing. Actually most of these already exist but only from the DDO Store... This would just allow them to be crafted and perhaps improved to a bit better than they currently are.

Aesop

Ungood
04-21-2012, 01:49 PM
Nope. Simply stated the divines already have the healing they need. Even if they run out of sp they can still heal with Echoes of Power. If that's not enough they can down a Mana pot and toss out Heals and other high level stuffs.

Craftable Pots would just open better healing to those that don't already have it and make it a little easier on those that like to solo or who value self sufficiency.

Craftable pots would help at least bridge the gap between low level healing pots and the SF Heal Pots. After all we aren't talking about having craftable pots that come close to the SF pots in terms of straight healing. Actually most of these already exist but only from the DDO Store... This would just allow them to be crafted and perhaps improved to a bit better than they currently are.

Aesop

Well I don't have a dog in this fight, so, if that what people think works, then that is what it is.

herzkos
04-21-2012, 01:50 PM
I like the idea in general, but would like to throw out some ideas.
(from the point of the new player, not the tr zerger, because that is who is
hurt by the lack of lfm's right?).
In addition to AC being made meaningful in some way:

I love the idea of a feat spent for the bonus to healing. What i'm not too fond of
is the multiple pot idea. new people (those who are supposed to be helped most
by your suggestion) don't have the plat to sustain drinking 4 stacks of csw pots per quest.
So, if we're going to stick with the per chug idea, i'd make it the equivalent of 3 pots while
you really only drink one.
For the combat balance idea, i'd make the feat a stance. Have to dismiss rage before activating, as
well as being knocked out of power attack or combat expertise or whatever monk stance you happen to be in.
That would be a fair trade off if the fight is still going on.

For casters, I like the idea of having to have 3 levels of non-blue bar character to be able to get the feat.

/edit . . . oh goooooooodddddddds nooo!!!! not crafting. sounds like a great idea, but really? ok, now you have to grind 3 stacks of ingredients to grind
a stack of healing pots? please, make it stop :)

Aesop
04-21-2012, 02:47 PM
I like the idea in general, but would like to throw out some ideas.
(from the point of the new player, not the tr zerger, because that is who is
hurt by the lack of lfm's right?).
In addition to AC being made meaningful in some way:

I love the idea of a feat spent for the bonus to healing. What i'm not too fond of
is the multiple pot idea. new people (those who are supposed to be helped most
by your suggestion) don't have the plat to sustain drinking 4 stacks of csw pots per quest.
So, if we're going to stick with the per chug idea, i'd make it the equivalent of 3 pots while
you really only drink one.
For the combat balance idea, i'd make the feat a stance. Have to dismiss rage before activating, as
well as being knocked out of power attack or combat expertise or whatever monk stance you happen to be in.
That would be a fair trade off if the fight is still going on.

For casters, I like the idea of having to have 3 levels of non-blue bar character to be able to get the feat.

/edit . . . oh goooooooodddddddds nooo!!!! not crafting. sounds like a great idea, but really? ok, now you have to grind 3 stacks of ingredients to grind
a stack of healing pots? please, make it stop :)



lol not the Crafting System crafting. Just Stone of Change Crafting ... combine a Stack of regular healing pots with a number of Khyber or Siberys Dragon Shards (of some variety) and you have better Pots.

Not too difficult and I have noticed I pick up a lot of those shards when I play.

Chai
04-21-2012, 11:24 PM
lol not the Crafting System crafting. Just Stone of Change Crafting ... combine a Stack of regular healing pots with a number of Khyber or Siberys Dragon Shards (of some variety) and you have better Pots.

Not too difficult and I have noticed I pick up a lot of those shards when I play.

If this healed for roughly what an SF pot does with no side effects, congrats, you just took mana bar out of caster healing. They are now even more powerful.

One of the main issues is many of the things that can be given to melee to help them out are used by casters and it widens the power gap. Case in point: Shield Mastery. Melee sacrifices DPS to even use a shield. Caster sacrifices nothing.

We play a game where a dumped cha fighter can get 39 UMD with mostly gear. How monte haul does it need to get? :p

Sidewaysgts86
04-22-2012, 01:42 AM
It is widely known that Pure Melees are in need of additional means of self healing

"Need" and "want" are entirely different concepts. I agree that a lot of pure melees "want" better self healing, but i disagree in stating that they "need" it, nor do I feel they should be granted it.

/Still not signed/convinced

Let me quote you as to why I feel this way. "PURE MELEES".

Pure melees have traded their ability to self-heal for dps, much as less than "pure" melees have traded "pure" dps for the ability to be self-sufficient (or something else, but in all likeliness in this game- its this). Seems fair to me. Again- Im 110% fine with pure melees being able to recover, to full hp even, OUTSIDE of combat. But when you decide to go pure melee, youre basically stating your entire strategy is to kill your enemies before they kill you. If it doesnt work, too bad- Thats the gamble you have chosen to take when you decided to go pure melee.

Aesop
04-22-2012, 06:58 AM
If this healed for roughly what an SF pot does with no side effects, congrats, you just took mana bar out of caster healing. They are now even more powerful.

One of the main issues is many of the things that can be given to melee to help them out are used by casters and it widens the power gap. Case in point: Shield Mastery. Melee sacrifices DPS to even use a shield. Caster sacrifices nothing.

We play a game where a dumped cha fighter can get 39 UMD with mostly gear. How monte haul does it need to get? :p

You did not read the post prior to the one you quoted.

In no way did I say to make these as heal effective as SF pots. They are an intermediary between low level pot healing and the higher level. Casters already have all the healing they need and are unlikely to be overly effected one way or another by the addition of the intermediary healing.

Another thought is to expand who gets healing amp in their Enhancement tree. Perhaps based upon hit die or something... or just on who actually needs it.

Aesop

Aesop
04-22-2012, 07:02 AM
Pure melees have traded their ability to self-heal for dps, much as less than "pure" melees have traded "pure" dps for the ability to be self-sufficient (or something else, but in all likeliness in this game- its this). Seems fair to me. Again- Im 110% fine with pure melees being able to recover, to full hp even, OUTSIDE of combat. But when you decide to go pure melee, youre basically stating your entire strategy is to kill your enemies before they kill you. If it doesnt work, too bad- Thats the gamble you have chosen to take when you decided to go pure melee.

The problem there would be that they aren't the best DPS to Self Heal Ratio. I mean Sorcerer way out DPS them and has a better UMD for self healing. FvS out DPS them and are a Healing class...

Maybe the issue there then is that the Melee classes need something more.


Aesop

Ungood
04-22-2012, 07:47 AM
If this healed for roughly what an SF pot does with no side effects, congrats, you just took mana bar out of caster healing. They are now even more powerful.

One of the main issues is many of the things that can be given to melee to help them out are used by casters and it widens the power gap. Case in point: Shield Mastery. Melee sacrifices DPS to even use a shield. Caster sacrifices nothing.

This pretty much sums up every thing I have ever heard about the issue with "better pots", in the sense they would not in effect help melee at all, but just serve as another means to invalidate them further, which was why I opted against offering an open source ability for better healing, and have it limited to just melee classes or builds that has to splash melee levels into it.

as Carpone (and others) have made mention that money is not a deterrent for any established player, cost or tedium would only deter a new or starting player, not a vet, especially not a caster. If they could drink a SP pot which would cost 8K base, up to 15K and even more on AH, they could and, invariably would be happy to grind out several hundred "Better Heal Pots" for a fraction of the cost.

However, it seems people are fixated that stronger pots are the way to go.


We play a game where a dumped cha fighter can get 39 UMD with mostly gear. How monte haul does it need to get? :pThis is true, but you would have to be a very Monty Haul type player to get that number with a Cha tanked fighter ;)


"Need" and "want" are entirely different concepts. I agree that a lot of pure melees "want" better self healing, but i disagree in stating that they "need" it, nor do I feel they should be granted it.

Another poster pointed out to me that it is more a demand placed upon them then a want of their own accord.

As I have been told, that most people who have chosen to play a Melee are more then happy to run though a dungeon bloodying their weapons on every mob they meet while the "Healer" keeps them up, and the "Buffer" keeps them Buffed, and the "Trapper", keeps the Traps from Killing them too fast, and I'll admit, when I play my Melee, I feel this way as well, lucky for me, I had a static group while leveling my melee, I don't feel everyone is so fortunate.

But, as it has been shown many times, across, pretty much, every topic, that is not the reality of the game as it is going, and it seems that this is prompted by the desire of the players

We all see the writing on the wall that Divines do not want to play "Healer", there are countless posts about how Divines are not Nanny-bots, and could solo the quest without the melee there to begin with. Arcane do not want to Play "Buffers", and with the spell pass they have very top notch Sustainable DPS Now, and thus the Melee's are left to fend for their own.

Or so I have been told from the varying posts I have read.

Could this be an entire construct of the formites, and have no real reflection in the game itself? Well, you have your feelings and personal knowledge and stand on that subject, So, I'll let you decide to believe what it is you feel is the truth.

herzkos
04-22-2012, 01:48 PM
lol not the Crafting System crafting. Just Stone of Change Crafting ... combine a Stack of regular healing pots with a number of Khyber or Siberys Dragon Shards (of some variety) and you have better Pots.

Not too difficult and I have noticed I pick up a lot of those shards when I play.

Oh, well that's ok then. In fact I like it. Shards tend to come in waves to me and they do drop
in bunches.
having those would definitely help a new player (and those that hit the collectables as well).

EpiKagEMO
04-24-2012, 07:24 PM
drinking multiple pots could heal a semi(jidz, human-10%, monk-10%, shrine10=50X3) maxed healing amp toon and he can easily solo a elite quest with just potions. amusing idea but wouldnt that be over powering? o.0

but good for BYOH groups :)

Ungood
04-24-2012, 08:44 PM
drinking multiple pots could heal a semi(jidz, human-10%, monk-10%, shrine10=50X3) maxed healing amp toon and he can easily solo a elite quest with just potions. amusing idea but wouldnt that be over powering? o.0

but good for BYOH groups :)

Well, to be honest, It could be. I am not sure if Over Powered would be the right phrase, but I suppose it could run the risk of making things a little too favorable towards playing a melee, allowing them to keep up with casters.

But Like any idea, I sure there would be room for abuse. :D

QuantumFX
04-24-2012, 11:36 PM
These already exist, they are called Silver Flame Potions. Sold in 2 sizes, and prices, for your convenience.

I’m sure you’ve already figured it out by now. But, I need to clarify. :) He’s referring to adding things like a Cure Serious Wounds potion that has a caster level of 15. This would result in a Cure Serious Wounds potion that does 12 more points of curing. Also, with Turbine’s house rule that metamagics do not affect the spell level of a spell, they could offer things like Caster level 15 Maximized, Empowered Cure Serious Wounds potions. (Averaging around 94.5 points of cure.)

Ungood
04-25-2012, 07:38 AM
I’m sure you’ve already figured it out by now. But, I need to clarify. :) He’s referring to adding things like a Cure Serious Wounds potion that has a caster level of 15. This would result in a Cure Serious Wounds potion that does 12 more points of curing. Also, with Turbine’s house rule that metamagics do not affect the spell level of a spell, they could offer things like Caster level 15 Maximized, Empowered Cure Serious Wounds potions. (Averaging around 94.5 points of cure.)

I am well aware of what he was proposing,. This Post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4417800&postcount=73) explains in simple terms what would be the outcome of making "stronger" pots, especially ones that could contend with Silver Flame pots and possessed no ill side effects.

Xynot2
04-26-2012, 11:18 AM
To answer this question: Using this Info (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4382798&postcount=74), I provided in the Past, in relation to this subject matter. Since it is not one big pot, but 20 separate pots calculated, which means it would average out as opposed to maxing in any direction. That means

20 CMW pots would heal roughly 240 HP, cost 580 Plat (Guild Vendor), allowing only 5 uses per stack of 100.

20 CSW Pots would Heal roughly 360 HP, cost 1460 plat (Guild Vendor) and again, only allowing 5 uses per stack.

To be honest, I would not expect many 20th level Melee to keep this feat, or keep the line up to 20, once they made 20th and could get far more healing from far less resources, in fact, I would not be surprised if it became little more then a leveling feat.


Why wouldn't they spend that much plat? They expect the healer to spend 20-25k per SP pot.

IMHO- Melees are good for only two things. #1- an easy toon for a newbie to learn the game and #2 a meat shield for the real damage dealers. The over-powered casters. Seriously. I just dont understand whines like this whole thread. Either get with people who can build an effective self healing melee or stay away from the groups that always require it. You're stepping dangerously into WoW territory here with this complete self sufficiency type of wish list. DnD is a team sport. Yeah, yeah I know this is an MMO version and some things need to be set for soling. I get that. That's what hirelings are for.

And I do agree with the statement that the SF pots need to heal 350-500hp. But I dont agree that they shouldn''t have a down side. Being able to chug 250 hp quickly makes healers obsolete in the same way that arti's are making rangers and rogues obsolete. (I've seen arti's at level that can do the trap hall in elite VoN5)

Be careful what yo uask for- you might get it.

Ungood
04-26-2012, 12:34 PM
Why wouldn't they spend that much plat?

This is a very solid question.

The answer, simply put, is because it would be far cheaper and not require a feat and several AP's to just use SF pots at 20th, or pretty much any level past 18th.


They expect the healer to spend 20-25k per SP pot.

I don't know anyone that expects this, I am not going to say anything in this regard.


IMHO- Melees are good for only two things. #1- an easy toon for a newbie to learn the game and #2 a meat shield for the real damage dealers. The over-powered casters.

I respect that this is your opinion on things, I have a slightly different opinion. Which is fine, we can agree to disagree.


You're stepping dangerously into WoW territory here with this complete self sufficiency type of wish list. DnD is a team sport.

I tend to disagree with this sentiments, in pretty much every way, while yes, it is a group game, even when you had several people sitting at the same table, their character may have been in vastly different parts of the worlds, or even different planes, and thus many would go off and do their own side quests and what have you, to meet up later for a grand final fight, or some such. Part of the adventure may be revolving around even gathering up as a team again.

So, DnD never perpetuated the idea of dependency, or "roles" as the case may be, if anything it made it so that a fighter could run off and take care of the cult problem his own way, while the cleric dealt with the political upheaval within the court to convince the king to let them open their armies for war. Etc etc, etc.

The very idea of roles, or even their placement into gaming societies is purely a MMO /Online Game construct, where "roles" were strictly encoded and enforced by stringent limiting factors, case in point EQ or games like Team Fortress.

Before then however, in MuD's, almost all classes where endowed with the casaptiy to go off and adventure on their own.

So perhaps this would be a step back to more traditional gaming, as opposed to the very MMO based "roles" idea we currently have.


Be careful what yo uask for- you might get it.

Noted.

Feralthyrtiaq
04-26-2012, 12:55 PM
I think a Feat, Improvable with AP is a good idea but feel in addition that the GCD for all clickable abilities should be reduced.

Maybe reduce the CD of Potion Drinking Down to 1 Sec.

I'd Really like to the see the CD of all abilities reduced down to 1 sec or Instant with Quick Draw Feat.

Could even get rid of the "Stop/Jump and Drink" (most times bugs out and you get the CD but no potion effect unless very careful)

A Feat to maybe make Drinking a Potion Activate like a clicky with a fast animation.

Xynot2
04-26-2012, 03:04 PM
I respect that this is your opinion on things, I have a slightly different opinion. Which is fine, we can agree to disagree.


Kewl- +1 rep for that

Quetzacoala
04-26-2012, 03:27 PM
This was brought up in another topic, here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=367256), and the idea took root here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4411733&postcount=383). So I wanted to being it so suggestions and ideas to let some other players feel it out.

I would like to prefix this with a few points before we get to the main idea.

First: It is widely known that Pure Melees are in need of additional means of self healing, so much so there are many topics started by many players, from new players to players in top tier raiding guilds noting that this is a problem with the game and that something needs to be done about it. The only question at this point, is: What

Secondly: Healing at end game is not an issuse, almost every post or topic about self healing is not dealing with end game toons, that have access to raid and epic gear, as well as SF potions. As it stands there is quite a bit of self healing for the end game player, all suggestions are for mid game builds.

Third: As it stands, there are already Silver Flame potions in the game, thus making "heal potions" that offer all the benefits of SF pots with none of the drawbacks is not an option.

Fourth: Now, some people have brought up the mantra "Build for Self healing" well, lets be honest here, that is exactly what I am trying to suggest with this idea. Providing players a means to build for self healing, using Feats and AP to accomplish the goal. As you can see, I am not against trade offs and choices, and with the idea that this will cost a feat, which might be better served for a more damage feat, such is fate, we all have to make choices, this is just my idea on a way to put that choice on the table. Now, from what I have read and seen on these forums, The main issue that keeps getting brought up again and again is that a pure melee, or non-blue bars, need some love in the self sufficiency department, mainly, self-healing at the mid levels, before the 'Good gear' kicks in.

So what I brought up was an idea for Feat called "Many Pot" (a play on Many Shot) which would allow melee's to be able to drink more then one potion at a time. This ability should toggle perhaps like Meta Magics feats so that they might while a player might want to chug several lesser restore pots to remove stat damage, or chug several cure pots to recover life, they might not want to be quaffing down 5 Remove disease potions for one effect. Which I think we can all agree, makes sense.

Anyway, the idea is that the Feat "Many Pot" would become available to any Pure Melee (meaning any class that can't cast spells by 3rd level) at 3rd level, and would allow them to drink 3 potions at once.

They then could Upgrade the number of potions drank though Enhancements, paying AP to chug more pots at one time, like Toughness Enchantments, limited by class, and race, to allow for diversity of numbers.

Some races would be allowed to have racial boons to pot chugging, like someone suggested that perhaps Dwarves might be able to spend some AP to get an additional pot in, Well call is Bearded Lush enchantment.

Since some classes have inherent means as well as many low level options to boost their heal amp, like Monks for example, it would be fair to the system that should be capped at a lower number of max Pots able to be chugged, like say they cap at 5 Potions, While other classes, like a pally could go up to say 7 and a Fighter could go up to 9.

The idea is to keep the number lower to as to not make this a raid healing option, but a questing/leveling options, which with Auto-Grouping (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=368684) coming out, a means to make all classes able to just group up without anyone being a third wheel will become an imperative need as opposed to some alternate option or solo favor build.

Another point brought up, chugging pots makes for an uninterpretable means of healing, and I have to admit, that is a good point.

I'll admit that there should be a allowance to fail chugging several pots mid-combat to keep players from just spam chugging to win a fight.

So a solution suggested was to have using this feat in combat require "Skill Check" roll, perhaps something like a Reflex save, with abilities like Uncanny Dodge functioning like Quicken, where if you fail the roll you botch the drink attempt and destroy the pots in the process.

I suppose, this could be expanded to add in additional feats like "Combat Drinking" which would allow a player to chug half the number of pots (rounded up) they would be able to chug with no save needed to be rolled.

Now, thanks to some awesome posters, Jaid314, dodger72, Mastese, Meetch1972, Talon_Moonshadow, for giving me some amazing insight into balance and issues that may arise. Thank you very much for the info and thoughts.

A great idea in principle, just a few issues I have with it.

One is that you are offering ways to drink more than three at a time... to this I must say no. This is simply a bit ridiculous.

However, the main one is how overpowered this will be for any healing-amp build. It will be ridiculous

Jaid314
04-26-2012, 03:48 PM
Being able to chug 250 hp quickly makes healers obsolete in the same way that arti's are making rangers and rogues obsolete. (I've seen arti's at level that can do the trap hall in elite VoN5)

anyone with so much as a single level of rogue and enough points spent on trap skills to search and disable those traps has been able to do them, so far as i am aware, since the quest existed.

the knowledge of how to do it may not have been widespread. but the possibility has always been there.

also, rogues have absolutely ridiculous DPS if you build them even remotely sensibly. artificers are not a rogue replacement, unless the rogue is completely clueless. not to say that artificers are bad or anything, but being able to deal with traps has been nothing more than a *convenience* for quite some time. so far as i am aware, rogues still remain the highest melee DPS in the game. add in the ability to assassinate which many rogues have, and you have a powerful addition to your group (as anyone who's been in epic quests that feature drow can attest, instakilling drow poses some challenges).

additionally, rangers remain a very good choice. they have better survivability than an artificer in many ways (better reflex save, evasion, FoM as a spell, typically very good AC, PrEs that allow mobility while fighting more easily, plus mobility-enhancing spells like tumble, jump, merfolk's blessing iirc, longstrider, sprint boost etc), and remain just about the only choice if you want to be good at both melee and ranged combat. additionally, because they get easy access to IPS and manyshot, they have some of the most ridiculous burst DPS in the game, whether they're an arcane archer or not (although obviously arcane archers deal *more* damage, this is not the same thing as saying tempests deal bad damage in ranged combat).

neither can be quite fully replaced by an artificer, provided the person playing the character knows how to use the class to their advantage. of course, it goes the other way also; neither rogues nor rangers replace artificers. they all have their uses, and while they may have some similarities, none of them are quite the same.

Ungood
04-26-2012, 05:46 PM
A great idea in principle, just a few issues I have with it.

One is that you are offering ways to drink more than three at a time... to this I must say no. This is simply a bit ridiculous.

This plays well into the Many Pot Joke. It is not drinking Several Pots at once, but "Speed Drinking". Look at it as if the feat is more along the lines of a player is drinking as many pots as they can in under 3 seconds. And taking feats and skill points to improve their overall number.

Case in point, like the Guinness World Record in Drinking, Steven Petrosino drank 1 liter of beer (33 Oz) in 1.3 seconds. To give you an comparison of that mans skill and ability, the current world record for chugging a 32 Oz bottle of Gator-Aid is 4.87 seconds. (You can Check out Chug World for More Info)

So what does that means, well, to a mortal man like myself, 4 seconds is at best a gulp of around 4 - 5 oz. (This is not a record of any kind, nor something impressive)

However, make no mistake, If you think you can beat the above numbers, there is a world record in it for you.*


However, the main one is how overpowered this will be for any healing-amp build. It will be ridiculousThis has been brought up by other posters and the numbers are open to revision.

*Note Warning: NOTE: Speed drinking can be dangerous. Please be wise.

Meetch1972
04-27-2012, 10:07 AM
I think the key to drinking multiple pots is the cost. What about...

Enhancement: Speed drinking I, II, III, IV, V - costs 1 AP per tier(negotiable) made available at say BAB 3/6/9/12/15 and lets you quaff 2,4,6,8,10 cure X wounds potions in a single go. Put a longer cooldown on it than regular potions - say equivalent to the number of pots quaffed, and quaffing sets the regular potion timer too. For bonus points, drinking a single cure potion the regular way would push the quaff timer back up by the standard delay.

In the heat of battle as a melee, you may only get one quaff when your hps get low - if your survivability is low or you've pulled more than you can handle, you may not get to quaff again, but if you can avoid combat for a few extra seconds you get another shot at it. For a while after that if your HPs get low you'd have to fall back to the tactic of running around in circles while UMD whipping the wand and chugging pots the old fashioned way, but you get that boost for when the healer goes AWOL or you say to yourself "bugger the expense, I'm quaffing pots to finish this". Sound familiar?

Overpowered? Well, if it costs APs and consumes a bunch of pots, it may not be a given that anyone would necessarily take it due to the AP sacrifice or cash flow issues. I know my melees would have to burn through quite a few pots to have much chance of soloing some of those quests that some clerics just run through leaving a trail of blade barriers. But it becomes a build option. I don't believe it would become more OP than a decent blue bar, but if there are holes in this then please point them out.

Meetch1972
04-27-2012, 10:16 AM
Case in point, like the Guinness World Record in Drinking, Steven Petrosino drank 1 liter of beer (33 Oz) in 1.3 seconds. To give you an comparison of that mans skill and ability, the current world record for chugging a 32 Oz bottle of Gator-Aid is 4.87 seconds. (You can Check out Chug World for More Info)

My favourite example is a former Australian prime minister, who for a time held the world record for downing the contents of a Yard Glass - 1.4 litres of beer in 11 seconds from a yard long glass. :)

SiliconScout
04-27-2012, 10:42 AM
So if this goes through then what.

Cleric's are your personal raise dead clicky?

Honestly why don't we just have everyone insta-heal to full after combat.

I have plenty of melee toons, hell one that is a brutally gimped TWF right now that I am trying to fix. None have Healing amp (again something I think I will fix) and to be honest they heal themselves fine.

Hell I don't have a single toon that can even use SF pots.

I honestly don't see the need for this at all.

Outside of RAIDs you pull a pocket cleric and it's a LOT cheaper than pots or scrolls or wands.

In a RAID you should probably have a healer or two.

Let them do their job.

I just don't see why this is a need, to me it sounds like a mega easy button and again if we are going to do that then I say just insta heal us all, or why not bump Regeneration up instead, make it 10% of total HP every 6 seconds or something. All of which are bad ideas IMHO.

Adrian99
04-27-2012, 11:21 AM
There are currently many options for a melee to self-heal. Your suggestion sounds like a short-cut to actually learning the game. I think if you learned the game first, you'd come up with better suggestions than this.

Ungood
04-27-2012, 01:08 PM
I think the key to drinking multiple pots is the cost. What about...

Enhancement: Speed drinking I, II, III, IV, V - costs 1 AP per tier(negotiable) made available at say BAB 3/6/9/12/15 and lets you quaff 2,4,6,8,10 cure X wounds potions in a single go. Put a longer cooldown on it than regular potions - say equivalent to the number of pots quaffed, and quaffing sets the regular potion timer too. For bonus points, drinking a single cure potion the regular way would push the quaff timer back up by the standard delay.

You could be on to something here. Have it so that the feat gives the ability to Chug 3 pots in very quick succession, thus allowing a player to down 3 pots in the time it takes for a normal player to down 1. (number open to revision)

But have it so that each additional pot added via Enhancements line adds 1 second to the Cool Down. So to chug 4 pots, take 4 seconds, 5 potions would take 5 seconds, etc.


Overpowered? Well, if it costs APs and consumes a bunch of pots, it may not be a given that anyone would necessarily take it due to the AP sacrifice or cash flow issues. I know my melees would have to burn through quite a few pots to have much chance of soloing some of those quests that some clerics just run through leaving a trail of blade barriers. But it becomes a build option. I don't believe it would become more OP than a decent blue bar, but if there are holes in this then please point them out.

While I am sure many would use it to solo, but to be honest, using Feats and AP, as well as a Plat Sink to self heal is a costly alternative to simply calling up a Hire.

This feat however, as I envision it would allow for easier grouping by allowing a group of players to fill spots with other players regardless of class as opposed to hires or needing to wait for a healer. IE: making BYOH groups viable options for pretty much every class in the game.

After all, self sufficiency, is totally different animal then being able to kill a few mobs with a nanny-bot-hire following you around, especially in the case I am proposing.

I don't think it would be OPed as it stands. The numbers might need to worked around a bit, and such, to tone it up or down, and I like your idea of time extending for additional potions. So, it would not be as effective as a heal spell. but still better then what is on the table already.


My favourite example is a former Australian prime minister, who for a time held the world record for downing the contents of a Yard Glass - 1.4 litres of beer in 11 seconds from a yard long glass. :)

Nice. There are some impressive records out there.

Note: Be safe people, and use caution with trying to speed drink.

axel15810
04-29-2012, 06:18 PM
This was brought up in another topic, here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=367256), and the idea took root here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4411733&postcount=383). So I wanted to being it so suggestions and ideas to let some other players feel it out.

I would like to prefix this with a few points before we get to the main idea.

First: It is widely known that Pure Melees are in need of additional means of self healing, so much so there are many topics started by many players, from new players to players in top tier raiding guilds noting that this is a problem with the game and that something needs to be done about it. The only question at this point, is: What

Secondly: Healing at end game is not an issuse, almost every post or topic about self healing is not dealing with end game toons, that have access to raid and epic gear, as well as SF potions. As it stands there is quite a bit of self healing for the end game player, all suggestions are for mid game builds.

Third: As it stands, there are already Silver Flame potions in the game, thus making "heal potions" that offer all the benefits of SF pots with none of the drawbacks is not an option.

Fourth: Now, some people have brought up the mantra "Build for Self healing" well, lets be honest here, that is exactly what I am trying to suggest with this idea. Providing players a means to build for self healing, using Feats and AP to accomplish the goal. As you can see, I am not against trade offs and choices, and with the idea that this will cost a feat, which might be better served for a more damage feat, such is fate, we all have to make choices, this is just my idea on a way to put that choice on the table. Now, from what I have read and seen on these forums, The main issue that keeps getting brought up again and again is that a pure melee, or non-blue bars, need some love in the self sufficiency department, mainly, self-healing at the mid levels, before the 'Good gear' kicks in.

So what I brought up was an idea for Feat called "Many Pot" (a play on Many Shot) which would allow melee's to be able to drink more then one potion at a time. This ability should toggle perhaps like Meta Magics feats so that they might while a player might want to chug several lesser restore pots to remove stat damage, or chug several cure pots to recover life, they might not want to be quaffing down 5 Remove disease potions for one effect. Which I think we can all agree, makes sense.

Anyway, the idea is that the Feat "Many Pot" would become available to any Pure Melee (meaning any class that can't cast spells by 3rd level) at 3rd level, and would allow them to drink 3 potions at once.

They then could Upgrade the number of potions drank though Enhancements, paying AP to chug more pots at one time, like Toughness Enchantments, limited by class, and race, to allow for diversity of numbers.

Some races would be allowed to have racial boons to pot chugging, like someone suggested that perhaps Dwarves might be able to spend some AP to get an additional pot in, Well call is Bearded Lush enchantment.

Since some classes have inherent means as well as many low level options to boost their heal amp, like Monks for example, it would be fair to the system that should be capped at a lower number of max Pots able to be chugged, like say they cap at 5 Potions, While other classes, like a pally could go up to say 7 and a Fighter could go up to 9.

The idea is to keep the number lower to as to not make this a raid healing option, but a questing/leveling options, which with Auto-Grouping (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=368684) coming out, a means to make all classes able to just group up without anyone being a third wheel will become an imperative need as opposed to some alternate option or solo favor build.

Another point brought up, chugging pots makes for an uninterpretable means of healing, and I have to admit, that is a good point.

I'll admit that there should be a allowance to fail chugging several pots mid-combat to keep players from just spam chugging to win a fight.

So a solution suggested was to have using this feat in combat require "Skill Check" roll, perhaps something like a Reflex save, with abilities like Uncanny Dodge functioning like Quicken, where if you fail the roll you botch the drink attempt and destroy the pots in the process.

I suppose, this could be expanded to add in additional feats like "Combat Drinking" which would allow a player to chug half the number of pots (rounded up) they would be able to chug with no save needed to be rolled.

Now, thanks to some awesome posters, Jaid314, dodger72, Mastese, Meetch1972, Talon_Moonshadow, for giving me some amazing insight into balance and issues that may arise. Thank you very much for the info and thoughts.

I would be strongly against this idea. Here's why I don't like it -

This idea basically would give pure melees a reliable source of self healing during fights. Even with your skill check idea, you're still essentially giving them reliable self healing during fights without stat penalties, even if the pot chug fails fairly often. And if you make it fail all the time you make the ability useless in combat. I don't think there's a way to balance this idea with skill checks. Either it works enough to be reliable for in combat heals or it doesn't.

This idea dramatically changes the divine classes if they no longer need to heal melees in or out of combat. They would change to an offensive casting/buffing only class since healing support would no longer be needed except in perhaps raids. And since healing is no longer needed divines as a whole may become obsolete as well. Why use a divine in a group if they're only going to be an offensive caster? You'd choose to use an arcane instead, they do it better. Besides a few buffs they offer it would be pretty useless to have a divine in a group over another arcane. Clerics especially would essentially become obsolete as radiant servant becomes useless. That's the main reason to play a cleric over a FVS in the first place. There would be no reason to not play a FVS on a divine since they offensive cast better.

Paladins also become obsolete. The class gives up some DPS to get some self healing and saves, and if you give self healing to other melees you take away one of their primary advantages. Also you make battle clerics and melee FVS builds obsolete with this idea for the same reasons...the changes you propose take away the builds' primary advantage.

I certainly disagree with your "it is widely known that melees need additional self healing..". How do you know this? It's not like there's been a player poll on it. There's a lot of whining about it on the forums but I certainly don't think it has been decided at all by the vast majority of the player base that this is what we want. I for sure don't want it.

Secondly I don't think this idea is needed. I've played both pure melees and divines to cap and I don't see anything wrong with self healing for melees as it is now. I don't see anything wrong with healing at midlevels. There are 2 options available for pure melees for self in-combat healing, Silver flame pots and hirelings. That's enough in my opinion. CSW pots do just fine on midlevels for out of fight healing if you don't have a cleric with aura in your group. Pure melees require healing support in combat, I don't see this as a problem. Nothing wrong with requiring teamwork. If you can't find a human player to heal for you, hirelings work just fine on almost all mid level quests. Your idea would essentially ruin the game for players like me who love playing a support role. I for sure would quit DDO if this idea was implemented since my favorite classes would go out the window.

I think the idea brings the melees in the wrong direction. I think players on this forum believe much more strongly in boosting melee's CC and DR abilities than giving them self sufficiency. I'm all for decreasing cooldowns on stunning blow, giving them more CC options and giving full plate DR. I'm even for cheaper BtC CSW pots for melees to help new players. But I think your idea moves the game into the wrong direction. Pure melees do need a boost in this game to catch up to casters. But we should be boosting the pure melee classes by increasing their DR and CC abilities, not by giving them better self healing. We need to find a way to solve melees' problems without ruining the teamwork aspect of the game.

Ungood
04-29-2012, 11:32 PM
I would be strongly against this idea. Here's why I don't like it -

This is a very well thought out and well written objection to my idea +1 (which I will give you when I can pass out rep again)

Meetch1972
04-30-2012, 12:17 AM
Oh come on now, reasoned argument on the forums? What is this nonsense? Where's the drama??!? Get off my lawn!!1!11!!

</sarcasm off>

I like the arguments for and against. Either way, something needs to be done as melees can and are easily overlooked. Running through low level content on my 4th life TR, I get very very few applications to join from anyone who isn't either melee based or relatively new to the game. I figure they're mostly not so much avoiding my LFMs as not even bothering to check LFMs at all (or running with their guildies). As a barb I'm getting better at driving a cleric hireling these days - not in minutiae so much as giving them instructions that help them avoid dying in the traps ...

I'd say to give the melees a hand with effectiveness, start by having held/stunned mobs auto-hittable instead of getting an AC check. The old autocrit is not the way any more, but if it's standing still then surely I should be able to hit it, and if I roll in the crit range then good!

Puhlease keep the insight coming... and I hope there's a dev lurking around here somewhere... :)

Kadriel
04-30-2012, 12:21 AM
I like the idea of potions of healing. Make them as readly avaliable as sp pots - only from loot, end reward or store bought.

Maybe with multiple caster levels. Can get a CL:11 from a lvl 11 chest or end quest reward, can get a CL:20 one from a lvl 20 chest.

Can even make them drop in stacks of 10, think that is about balanced with mnemonics.

Or here is a second idea. Put cure critical pots on sale, and make the heal and repair skills, that we now know to be mostly useless, give a bonus to healing/repair pots. Can be 1% per skill point, meaning if you can get it up to say, 70%, you will get 70% bonus on your pots. That seens fun, balanced, and gives a reason two put points in the 2 most useless skills in game

Jaid314
04-30-2012, 02:21 AM
making rare healing potions won't really help much at all. you'd go through 10 quests worth of potions in a single quest, based on many of the barbarians and fighters i've seen (actually, based on some i've seen, quite possibly in a single fight, but that's neither here nor there).

and they'd be ridiculously overpowered for the classes that take special care to mitigate incoming damage and who avoid getting hit. in other words, it would be an amazing item for casters to use in an emergency. it would be a useless item for most melees, who have no concept of damage avoidance. and it would be ridiculously overpowered for the melees that do specialise in damage avoidance, because they would only need one every once in a long while (most of the time, downing the occasional cure serious potion would work just fine anyways).

it wouldn't help the people it claims to be targeted at, ultimately. it would just make them even less impressive from a self-healing perspective.

there's a *reason* people who expect to get multiple 300 point heals in every single minor skirmish don't have any self-sufficiency. but they don't have to expect that much incoming damage in every single minor skirmish. they made the choice to need a babysitter so that they could do more damage.

melee could use some help right now. i'm not convinced the solution is to give them more healing. the more it gets examined, the more convinced i am that there needs to be a different solution than that.