PDA

View Full Version : Nerf the Drizzt looking dude in Epic LoD



Monkey-Boy
04-16-2012, 08:16 AM
Yes, I'm calling for a nerf. Not because the enounter is hard, it isn't in, but the fight is just silly.

It's ridiculously easy for casters but almost certain death for melees. He just hit's too hard, combine that with his often landed stunning-blow and likelihood of critting and I've seen 600+ HP melees drop in less than a second more times than I can count. Epic Lailat isn't this dangerous to a melee.

Meanwhile casters can just DOT-kite or perch in a safe-spot. Casters can kill him easily while taking NO DAMAGE.

No encounter should be designed this way, especially not now when casters are so superior to melees. It's just a kick in the love-nuggets that's not needed to classes that are very far behind.

So yes, I'm asking for a nerf. No encounter should be designed to be this lobsidded between casters and melee.

delsoboss
04-16-2012, 08:24 AM
No nerf needed, just give him +10 superior vorpal greensteel returning shurikens of ultimate player bane and something something of uper duper caster destruction if that's the problem.

Every kobold and hobgoblin in the game throws something at you if it can't get you, and this fail of a Drizz clone let's enemies gang him and then feigns it was all part of a bigger plan while he dies coughing blood.

voodoogroves
04-16-2012, 08:26 AM
Yes, I'm calling for a nerf. Not because the enounter is hard, it isn't in, but the fight is just silly.

It's ridiculously easy for casters but almost certain death for melees. He just hit's too hard, combine that with his often landed stunning-blow and likelihood of critting and I've seen 600+ HP melees drop in less than a second more times than I can count. Epic Lailat isn't this dangerous to a melee.

Meanwhile casters can just DOT-kite or perch in a safe-spot. Casters can kill him easily while taking NO DAMAGE.

No encounter should be designed this way, especially not now when casters are so superior to melees. It's just a kick in the love-nuggets that's not needed to classes that are very far behind.

So yes, I'm asking for a nerf. No encounter should be designed to be this lobsidded between casters and melee.

I run these quests almost entirely on melee types; I've stopped running in groups on my divines and arcanes ... and he's my favorite boss right now.

Please do NOT nerf him.

Monkey-Boy
04-16-2012, 08:29 AM
No nerf needed, just give him +10 superior vorpal greensteel returning shurikens of ultimate player bane and something something of uper duper caster destruction if that's the problem.

Every kobold and hobgoblin in the game throws something at you if it can't get you, and this fail of a Drizz clone let's enemies gang him and then feigns it was all part of a bigger plan while he dies coughing blood.

OOOHHH. better idea, give him manyshot and slayer arrows to use on kiters and perchers. That's a better idea than nerfing him. increase the pain.

I withdraw my request for the nerf.

Right now he'll just throw a dagger at you which is good for feeding your torc more than anything else.

voodoogroves
04-16-2012, 08:31 AM
OOOHHH. better idea, give him manyshot and slayer arrows to use on kiters and perchers. That's a better idea than nerfing him. increase the pain.

Give him a Noxious Fang ... a dagger ... but one that can hit for 500.

jbleargh
04-16-2012, 08:32 AM
No nerf.

They should eliminate the "safe spots" and make the AI agro the casters (as our Human Intelligence always do).

Problem solved... somewhat... as an average FVS/clerics/pale masters/self healing magic user may still be more durable than an average melee...



Cogito ergo doleo

Missing_Minds
04-16-2012, 08:46 AM
Now that you've complained about perching (I've never done that) expect the perches to be found and removed.

Kiting is still allowed, let alone the uneven terrain which can make it a pain to heal people due to a 2 in tall rise in the ground which "blocks" a person from getting healed.

Monkey-Boy
04-16-2012, 08:59 AM
Now that you've complained about perching (I've never done that) expect the perches to be found and removed.

Kiting is still allowed, let alone the uneven terrain which can make it a pain to heal people due to a 2 in tall rise in the ground which "blocks" a person from getting healed.

Perching and DOTing/Burning is cheap and cheesy, whenever possible the perches SHOULD be removed.

Kitting is also cheap-n-cheesy but not as bad as it takes some reflex/skill to do that.

And yes, I do it because I can. You'd be a fool not to use terrain to your advantage. But at the same time the fights in this game shouldn't be about exploiting the AIs stupidity, that's where the original epics failed.

Sarisa
04-16-2012, 09:00 AM
Never seen or done it "perched".

In a caster heavy group, or one with AA's/Artis, kiting is definitely easy enough.

He's also not bad if you have some DR tank and someone to power heal him or her. Just have to make sure everyone on his back remains on his back, and still gets healed when he does that whirlwind. It feels dirty in an epic, but pulling out a shield and going into tank mode is what I find best for the group on my Pali.

Having a PM (being Harm'ed), Sorc, or FvS DoT tanking works well too, since you can get some decent DR while actively blocking. FvS's with shield mastery work best.

His damage does require intense healing if you go with a melee heavy route. Mass Heal is way too slow for a melee group, I usually end up having to rotate a Heal on the tank, Mass Cure Mod on the group, Heal scroll on the tank, and Mass Cure Light on the group in order to keep everyone up through the whirlwinds if they all hit through the displacement and cloudkill.

My opinion is that it's intense for the otherwise easy epic, but the fight ends fast enough in melee that it shouldn't drain healing resources that fast.

Missing_Minds
04-16-2012, 09:08 AM
this game shouldn't be about exploiting the AIs stupidity, that's where the original epics failed.

Name me a game where you don't try to out game your opponent. Lets see what you can come up with in a serious manner.

Monkey-Boy
04-16-2012, 09:20 AM
Name me a game where you don't try to out game your opponent. Lets see what you can come up with in a serious manner.

"Out-gaming" the AI is DDO is a slightly greater accomplishment than beating a 5 year old at checkers.

There is way too much "gaming the system" in DDO. Window-farming for XP, manipulating a guild's size to find the sweet-spot with renown decay, perching and exploiting dumb-AI are a few examples of meta-gaming gone wrong.

Our opponents have 1000s of HP because they are so stupid they can be "Strangled with a Cordless Phone." I'd much prefer smarter opponents to trash mobs with 3,000-10,000 HP but that would require more CPU power so I accept it.

Designing encounters where cheap-n-cheesy tactics are such the obvious no-brainer is just lame, something that does as much melee damage as that Drow dude yet is harmless to casters because he dumped his jump-skill is lame.

Wipey
04-16-2012, 09:22 AM
His damage does require intense healing if you go with a melee heavy route.

Even if I have only one arcane for displace / cloudkill /stinking cloud, it's still much safer and maybe a min longer to let arty / divine kite and blue bar dot than any tanking or meleeing at all.

Never been in all melee group there, might be fun ... or not ;-)

delsoboss
04-16-2012, 09:26 AM
... he dumped his jump-skill ...

Lol that's funny because jump is strenght based ... maybe he's a uber leet finesse thingy with a dex to damage weapon?

Another workaround is to make him a kobold: problem solved since they can jump everywhere we get and beyond.

Sarisa
04-16-2012, 09:26 AM
With a good melee run, the fight's over in 20-30 seconds (and that's even with one person "gimping" themselves with a shield to hold aggro). Kiting is definitely safer, but does take longer.

My only complaint about it is that according to others (I've never played a Ranger), is that his Whirlwind can proc both weapons, while player Whirlwind's can't.

Edit: To combat the perching of this end fight, have him switch to a Bow and Manyshot.

McFlay
04-16-2012, 09:35 AM
Meanwhile casters can just DOT-kite or perch in a safe-spot. Casters can kill him easily while taking NO DAMAGE.


DOTs...if it wasn't for dungeon scaling they'd be the undisputed worst thing that ever happened to DDO.

BruceTheHoon
04-16-2012, 09:42 AM
Don't nerf him. Fix the cheesy spots.

This fight is a great practice for a bit of teamwork. Get a rogue to hamstring him, someone with 500+ HP to tank him and the rest on the back. The fight will be over at least 2 times faster than with the cheesy approach where, in a typical party, only two people will be dealing sizeable damage.
I do it every time on my tempest.

voodoogroves
04-16-2012, 09:43 AM
My only complaint about it is that according to others (I've never played a Ranger), is that his Whirlwind can proc both weapons, while player Whirlwind's can't.

To be fair, I don't know any rangers who have whirlwind right now.

Chai
04-16-2012, 09:45 AM
Hilarious. The minute a mob uses all the feats and tactics of a player and hits just as hard people want a nerf?

I thought this was one of the better encounters in the game BECAUSE OF that drow. Drow warriors of FR are supposed to be feared because of their battle prowess, not some push over like Malacia who just lets you beat on her for 15 seconds at a time floating there doing nothing between actions. Now if they could add 25 IQ points or so to the AI....

Chai
04-16-2012, 09:52 AM
"Out-gaming" the AI is DDO is a slightly greater accomplishment than beating a 5 year old at checkers.

There is way too much "gaming the system" in DDO. Window-farming for XP, manipulating a guild's size to find the sweet-spot with renown decay, perching and exploiting dumb-AI are a few examples of meta-gaming gone wrong.

Our opponents have 1000s of HP because they are so stupid they can be "Strangled with a Cordless Phone." I'd much prefer smarter opponents to trash mobs with 3,000-10,000 HP but that would require more CPU power so I accept it.

Designing encounters where cheap-n-cheesy tactics are such the obvious no-brainer is just lame, something that does as much melee damage as that Drow dude yet is harmless to casters because he dumped his jump-skill is lame.

This.

Theres also too many lame blanket methods of patching up the fact that the AI can be gamed as such. Each time they "fix" this its like tanking pills every day for a head ache when the real issue causing it in the first place should be addressed.

The eVON 1 lesson was not learned well. Perching is still a great strategy in this game and its because of the AI, which will stand there or even run into a wall when aggroed on a player that cant be physically attacked.

McFlay
04-16-2012, 10:07 AM
Hilarious. The minute a mob uses all the feats and tactics of a player and hits just as hard people want a nerf?

I thought this was one of the better encounters in the game BECAUSE OF that drow. Drow warriors of FR are supposed to be feared because of their battle prowess, not some push over like Malacia who just lets you beat on her for 15 seconds at a time floating there doing nothing between actions. Now if they could add 25 IQ points or so to the AI....

Well duh, why do you think people hate pvp. Other players can do exactly what they can do, its what DDO would be a lot more like if mobs weren't so stupid. Everyone knows this game shouldn't be any more in depth than kiting mobs through aoes, dot spamming, and insta killing.

If people hate that why on earth would they like a mob thats more player like with 100x the hp of a player?

Monkey-Boy
04-16-2012, 10:11 AM
DOTs...if it wasn't for dungeon scaling they'd be the undisputed worst thing that ever happened to DDO.

New sig, thank you!

Monkey-Boy
04-16-2012, 10:14 AM
Hilarious. The minute a mob uses all the feats and tactics of a player and hits just as hard people want a nerf?

I thought this was one of the better encounters in the game BECAUSE OF that drow. Drow warriors of FR are supposed to be feared because of their battle prowess, not some push over like Malacia who just lets you beat on her for 15 seconds at a time floating there doing nothing between actions. Now if they could add 25 IQ points or so to the AI....

Read on, the call for the nerf was a sarcastic back-door to point out how lopsidedly easy the encounter is on a caster.

Zyerz
04-16-2012, 10:29 AM
He does hit hard, but like the other posts said, a caster tears right through him. Although I have noticed his AC mustnt be too high... The rakshasa Gnomon is a little harder to hit, but the drow guy is just so easy to swing at him, even on epic.

LOOON375
04-16-2012, 10:38 AM
The quest is fine as it is.

Quit asking for them to change stuff. It usually ends up doing more harm than good.

LOOON375
04-16-2012, 11:02 AM
Read on, the call for the nerf was a sarcastic back-door to point out how lopsidedly easy the encounter is on a caster.I have re read this thread several times and NOTHING in your initial couple of posts reads as sarcastic.

This entire point is lost on me when referring to this quest. The majority of this game is easier on casters.

Next time when you want to be sarcastic, I would suggest NOT putting it in the "suggestion" forum.

Jay203
04-16-2012, 11:32 AM
DOTs...if it wasn't for dungeon scaling they'd be the undisputed worst thing that ever happened to DDO.

nope, greensteel is
if you can do a comparison of the power in the game between pre-greensteel and post-greensteel...

biggin
04-16-2012, 12:11 PM
If you want to melee him just make sure the healer is on his game is all. It's actually quite fun to heal IMO simply for the fact people can be easily 1-3 shotted, even on heavy HP tanks. Not every quest needs a token pinata.

Monkey-Boy
04-16-2012, 12:14 PM
Not every quest needs a token pinata.

he's nothing more than a "token pinata" to casters. He presents zero threat to them.

Chai
04-16-2012, 12:31 PM
Well duh, why do you think people hate pvp. Other players can do exactly what they can do, its what DDO would be a lot more like if mobs weren't so stupid. Everyone knows this game shouldn't be any more in depth than kiting mobs through aoes, dot spamming, and insta killing.

If people hate that why on earth would they like a mob thats more player like with 100x the hp of a player?

PVE mobs dont trash talk you in general chat channels for 45 minutes after being pwned about how you used cheap tactics and rely on specific "cheap" abilities to ensure victory. When you kill them they die and you carry on with your business.

The whole reason the mobs need HP inflation is to ensure that some level of resource is used to kill them because of the fact that the AI can be strangled with a cordless phone. If epic trash mobs were 700 HP and high attack rates etc, the perchers would solo everything without any worry about having to replenish mana. The ability to game the AI is patched up rather than fixed - and done so in such a blanket way that the easiest way to kill specific mobs often times becomes the one known and used formula, and pushes us toward the "mindless grind" we all complain about.

Missing_Minds
04-16-2012, 12:37 PM
"Out-gaming" the AI is DDO is a slightly greater accomplishment than beating a 5 year old at checkers.

I ask for something in the realms of serious and the best you can come up with is a 5 year old at checkers.

Then again you only prove my point.

And has already been stated, you want a smarter AI, you'll have more lag. So which do you want more? Less lag or smarter AI?

justagame
04-16-2012, 12:52 PM
DOTs...if it wasn't for dungeon scaling they'd be the undisputed worst thing that ever happened to DDO.

I don't think one person gets to call something undisputed. Judging by opinions on both sides, over what is now far too many threads, I'd say it's quite heavily disputed.

Before the spell pass, casters and divines at endgame faced a situation of "well, glad you had your fun with your little toys, but now just sit back and keep the melees buffed and healed, because your spells won't even put a noticeable dent in the boss."

Going from a healbot/buffbot with a woowoo stick, to being relevant again, saved the interest of many in the game. Some of the more useless melee abilities need to be made similarly more relevant again, IMO. Simply asking for nerfs puts us back in the bad old days.

Should someone be able to perch and harm the bad guys without fear? No. But you could deal with the perching aspect, or nerf a spell. If you want a simple solution that doesn't mess with anything else, you go one way. If you just want an excuse to nerf something, you can go another.

Chai
04-16-2012, 12:52 PM
Read on, the call for the nerf was a sarcastic back-door to point out how lopsidedly easy the encounter is on a caster.

Yeah, we can point that out for the entire game. The boss is = to an epic trash mob with a different HP value, which basically means moar dots + longer perch time.

It could be worse. EQs "fix" for stupid AI was to have all level 55+ mobs summon you to within melee range if you got aggro. Every single level 55+ trash mob just arbitrarily called out your name and summoned you right to its feet. "Am I experiencing rubberbanding lag or did I peeve off a high level trash mob?" - must be lag, I havent taken damage yet. :p

Monkey-Boy
04-16-2012, 12:55 PM
I ask for something in the realms of serious and the best you can come up with is a 5 year old at checkers.

Then again you only prove my point.

And has already been stated, you want a smarter AI, you'll have more lag. So which do you want more? Less lag or smarter AI?

An what point would that be? That some consider out-smarting DDO's AI to be skill?

All games have stupid AI, PvP games are the only way you can possibly face a challenging opponent that has equal 'stuff' as you (and don't talk about DDO's PvP as the PvP in this game truly is dreadfully un-balanced and serves no purpose other than trash-talking). All other games have to cheat, for now as CPUs get faster every year and one day soon we'll see AI in game that can at least reach the level of a monkey with downs syndrome.

I want both, I want less lag and LESS EXPLOITABLE AI. If that mean changing environments to remove perches yes, I want that. Giving mobs powerful ranged attacks to prevent kiting would also be a good idea, as would giving them the ability to climb where we climb.

What bugs me about this encounter is at a time when melees are second-class citizens we get an encounter where it's almost a sure thing they will die yet it's a complete joke on a caster, we saw the same thing will many of the challenges red-names as well. it's a poorly designed encounter for that reason.

Missing_Minds
04-16-2012, 01:02 PM
An what point would that be? That some consider out-smarting DDO's AI to be skill?

*sigh* That anything repetitious leads to meta gaming. Gamers want to make runs efficient, not sloppy. Gamers are always going to figure out the best way to beat an opponent, cheese or not.

Cheese is also a matter of opinion. I like cheddar and mozzarella.

edit: also a less exploitable AI also means removing diplomacy, intimidation, and any form of threat addition/reduction, while adding in healing agro as well.

Chai
04-16-2012, 01:13 PM
I ask for something in the realms of serious and the best you can come up with is a 5 year old at checkers.

Then again you only prove my point.

And has already been stated, you want a smarter AI, you'll have more lag. So which do you want more? Less lag or smarter AI?

Why is that exactly? The AI has to run physics checks anyhow and it wouldnt need to run MORE to be SMARTER.

It would just need to be able to make determinations based on specific facts, which is not processing intensive at all. If <avatar> has been stopped in the same place and still cannot attack (due to perching for instance) - revert to new mode of attack, -or- the reaction could be to attack another group member.

We see it already in ogres and trolls which will pull out a bow and fire away. The issue with that is it is laughable because their rate of fire is hilariously slow. If the artificer mobs and ranger mobs had the same rate of fire as PCs the perching would likely stop and we would be debating all this in a completely different thread where the people who want their autocompletions are complaining about the AI being too smart.

Missing_Minds
04-16-2012, 01:34 PM
Why is that exactly? The AI has to run physics checks anyhow and it wouldnt need to run MORE to be SMARTER.

It would just need to be able to make determinations based on specific facts, which is not processing intensive at all. If <avatar> has been stopped in the same place and still cannot attack (due to perching for instance) - revert to new mode of attack, -or- the reaction could be to attack another group member.

There is a lot more math there than what you think.

Long ago, when Codog was still a developer, we found out that the client does a LOT of smoothing for how the AI runs. Kobolds actually zig zag a lot for example, but we only see them running in a straight line. (he was tracking down a lost shot/arrow issue.)

The "stop" you mention is really.
1. store off x,y coords of npc.
2. is location within previous "spot". (this is an "is this dot within this circle" sort of trig. This IS as intensive as "I swung, did I hit" calculations that the developers reduced with nerfing TWF.)
3a. If not, update "circle", NPCmoved = true.
3b. if it is, leave "circle" be, and NPCmoved = false.
4. then you check on attacking. Has it attacked within a time frame, or has it not?

Which at this point if you think through things at all, you realize kiters and npcs with any sort of range will be stuck in an infinite loop of going after the target because they can move and can attack. So how do you break that? new target? Ok.
LOS check to PCs. (LOS is almost as equally intensive as an area hit detect)
Which is closest?
If we keep threat, do we go after that one? If so, calculate path to PC.

There is a heck of a lot of math involved, it isn't all simple binary checks. The AI can only do exactly what it is told, there is no form of abstract logic for it to make jumps of "intelligence" to game players. There are far more of us to learn from, and that which works one some of us won't work on others. So not only would it require such of the AIs, but a "DM" would have to be created to change the "over all" AI of the NPCs. Sort of like the director in L4D/2 series.

Matuse
04-16-2012, 02:47 PM
Hilarious. The minute a mob uses all the feats and tactics of a player and hits just as hard people want a nerf?

If I had 45,000 HP, I wouldn't mind monsters hitting as hard as players dual wielding eSoS's.

But I don't, so I do.

McFlay
04-16-2012, 04:13 PM
He does hit hard, but like the other posts said, a caster tears right through him. Although I have noticed his AC mustnt be too high... The rakshasa Gnomon is a little harder to hit, but the drow guy is just so easy to swing at him, even on epic.

Usual protocol in quite a few of the pugs ive ran this quest in amounts to melee go hide in the hallway after the rakshasha and the caster will dot/kite the drow around til he's dead. That's pretty epic game design when you are basically a piece of trash who gets in the way.

What ever happened to the good old dnd when you couldnt run backwards full speed lobbing spells endlessly while stupid mobs just got kited around waiting to die. Early turned based dnd games from 20 years ago had better ai then ddo does.

Its ok, turbine has a solution, all they need to do is inflate mob hp more and everything will work out...

waterboytkd
04-16-2012, 04:59 PM
I don't think one person gets to call something undisputed. Judging by opinions on both sides, over what is now far too many threads, I'd say it's quite heavily disputed.

Before the spell pass, casters and divines at endgame faced a situation of "well, glad you had your fun with your little toys, but now just sit back and keep the melees buffed and healed, because your spells won't even put a noticeable dent in the boss."

Going from a healbot/buffbot with a woowoo stick, to being relevant again, saved the interest of many in the game. Some of the more useless melee abilities need to be made similarly more relevant again, IMO. Simply asking for nerfs puts us back in the bad old days.

Should someone be able to perch and harm the bad guys without fear? No. But you could deal with the perching aspect, or nerf a spell. If you want a simple solution that doesn't mess with anything else, you go one way. If you just want an excuse to nerf something, you can go another.

Thank you for saving me the time of saying this. DoTs made spellcasters more than a "one-of" in raid parties, and really made filling PUGs for raids a lot easier. I play mostly melees, and I never want to go back to the pre-U9 days for spellcasters.

In my mind, the only way they could do away with the DoTs is to give every caster access to SLAs that have no SP cost and a minimal (3 second tops) cooldown. That MIGHT keep them effective enough DPS to take more than one in a raid group. MIGHT. In my opinion, casters are balanced fine right now. It's melees and melee combat that needs adjustments.

MrCow
04-16-2012, 05:27 PM
What ever happened to the good old dnd when you couldnt run backwards full speed lobbing spells endlessly while stupid mobs just got kited around waiting to die.

You instead did maneuvers such as casting enlarge person, equipping a reach weapon, taking combat reflexes, and making 5-foot steps away from your target, so that each time your opponent wanted to attack you they would provoke an attack of opportunity before they got in range.

Chai
04-16-2012, 05:31 PM
Usual protocol in quite a few of the pugs ive ran this quest in amounts to melee go hide in the hallway after the rakshasha and the caster will dot/kite the drow around til he's dead. That's pretty epic game design when you are basically a piece of trash who gets in the way.

What ever happened to the good old dnd when you couldnt run backwards full speed lobbing spells endlessly while stupid mobs just got kited around waiting to die. Early turned based dnd games from 20 years ago had better ai then ddo does.

Its ok, turbine has a solution, all they need to do is inflate mob hp more and everything will work out...

In the good ol D&D a caster needs to lob ONE spell - no need for the kiting, perching, etc.

If more than one spell is needed, the caster is improved invis, flying, and stoneskinned, nuking from orbit. a melee would have to pick the right cube area (out of ALOT of cubes) to attack into then even if they did pick the right one theyd still have to roll a 50% miss chance + hit much higher AC, then get through DR 10 or 20 depending on the variety of stoneskin that was used.

The balance was that enemy casters could do the same. Not that melee was anywhere near in power to a caster.

Cardoor
04-16-2012, 05:52 PM
Usual protocol in quite a few of the pugs ive ran this quest in amounts to melee go hide in the hallway after the rakshasha and the caster will dot/kite the drow around til he's dead.

I prefer the melees to stay in the room. When I DOT the drow he is on me very quickly and he sticks like glue. Having people I can jump over to get in his way and attack him brings him down much faster. IMO that is teamwork and one of the rare instances that I am "pseudo-tanking" as a wiz (it is rare).

I have also soloed the quest. I have no idea where the perch spot is, so I had to do it the hard way. The drow was on my back, and I mean right behind me almost every second of our fight. He nearly killed me several times. I didn't find it easy at all.

The difference between solo and with a group is pretty substantial. I have never been in a group that has the melees stand in the hall, but if I do, I will probably just go stand there with them until we decide to evaluate the situation and use our best strategy.

sirgog
04-16-2012, 05:52 PM
He does hit hard, but like the other posts said, a caster tears right through him. Although I have noticed his AC mustnt be too high... The rakshasa Gnomon is a little harder to hit, but the drow guy is just so easy to swing at him, even on epic.

Yeah he's all DPS, no defence at all. He dies fast too, I'd be surprised if he even has 70000hp.

Honestly I've not had trouble in there on my Stalwart tanking him, and my Stalwart isn't one of those max HP builds. That includes running with single healers that have never run that encounter before and aren't used to epics in general, although you do have to warn them 'This is a short but intense fight, you might need to use other spells between Heal cooldowns and you won't have time to DOT until you really know this well'

If they want to undermine DOT kiting on him, giving him 30% Cold absorb and 30% Electric absorb would be the way to go, but this IMO is not a fight where DOT kiting is an overly efficient or powerful tactic. It only works if you make no mistakes, and if you are good enough to make no mistakes DOT kiting Karas, you are good enough to heal a melee tank through his attacks.

Cardoor
04-16-2012, 06:54 PM
...
Honestly I've not had trouble in there on my Stalwart tanking him, and my Stalwart isn't one of those max HP builds.
...

Stalwart-a-tanking, Healer-a-healing, Arcane-a-dotting, DPS-a-thwacking, 5 epic tokens... sounds like either the 12 days of Christmas or a good plan.

HatsuharuZ
04-16-2012, 07:42 PM
So... who wants to go back to the system where the number of spell slots you have per level equals the number of spells of that level that you can cast per day, if you happen to be a wizard, cleric or artificer? And while we're at it, lets get rid of the enhancements, too. Turbine would lower the hp of the mobs then! :D

*hides*

McFlay
04-16-2012, 08:11 PM
In the good ol D&D a caster needs to lob ONE spell - no need for the kiting, perching, etc.

If more than one spell is needed, the caster is improved invis, flying, and stoneskinned, nuking from orbit. a melee would have to pick the right cube area (out of ALOT of cubes) to attack into then even if they did pick the right one theyd still have to roll a 50% miss chance + hit much higher AC, then get through DR 10 or 20 depending on the variety of stoneskin that was used.

The balance was that enemy casters could do the same. Not that melee was anywhere near in power to a caster.

The balance was that casters were extremeley limited. Sure, you could be improved invis, flying, and stoneskinned, but those just used up 3 of your sparse high level spells.

Balance was also in the fact that you had friendly fire. You couldn't just plop down aoe's and kite **** through them...becuase you would kill yourself. You actually had to think before shooting off a fb or lightning bolt so you didnt fry your team mates.

It was also balanced because casters often had less then half of the hp of a melee, and you never had enough heal pots/scrolls or spells to full heal some guy 1000 times over if necesary, so you actually had more of a threat of dieing as a caster...not more survivability becuase you can heal yourself more efficiently.

Now lets go play some ddo, where casters have near infinite resources with sp pots/conc op/torc and don't have to worry at all about friendly fire, or any real drawbacks for that matter, and claim its balanced because casters are supposed to be gods in comparison to melees.

Vellrad
04-16-2012, 08:43 PM
I love when people call mana pots infinite ressource.

sweez
04-16-2012, 08:57 PM
The balance was that casters were extremeley limited.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195084) :rolleyes:

Jaid314
04-16-2012, 08:58 PM
I love when people call mana pots infinite ressource.

i hope i get to find the bottomless pit that spits them out some day. it would certainly be nice.

edit: that being said, i wouldn't be opposed to something that potentially checks for perched enemies and then busts out a manyshot bow for 20 seconds... provided it wasn't insanely buggy, that is.

Kmnh
04-16-2012, 09:10 PM
Don't nerf him, give him manyshot and an earthgrab bow to deal with the kiters :D

Kysean
04-16-2012, 10:11 PM
If you are dieing too fast in this fight, I'll give you a hint: he does NOT have true seeing. Ask for a displace.

Missing_Minds
04-16-2012, 10:59 PM
The balance was that enemy casters could do the same. Not that melee was anywhere near in power to a caster.

Against a singular foe, oh yes melee was. Very easily so.

Against a group, melee has never been strong.... Well... combat reflexes and AoO.

LOOON375
04-16-2012, 11:07 PM
The game is too hard, the game is too easy.........the game is too hard, the game is too easy.

Give it a rest already..

I guess it's just that time of the year.........

Ralmeth
04-16-2012, 11:16 PM
Please don't nerf him. I like tanking that drow on my Pally DoS. It's a fun, challenging fight:)

Monkey-Boy
04-17-2012, 12:14 AM
I love when people call mana pots infinite ressource.

I'm mediocre at best on my caster and I've solo'd this no pots.

Bowser_Koopa
04-17-2012, 10:33 AM
Man is everyone on this forums a shareholder in Hasbro? With all the cries for nerf going on here sometimes I wonder. Wait....this just in, Hasbro owns Wizards of the Coast who makes DnD who lets Turbine play in their shiny world.......Man who knew Hasbro was actually in the super-villain business this plan is diabolical now if only I could use it to get rid of Mario.



In other news, leave the poor drow alone, so he maxed out str and not so much in con let him enjoy the feeling of actually killing some pc's from time to time god knows a lot of the raid bosses can't do it anymore. You nerf boys already won your victory in Servants of the Overlord can't you just stop there and be happy leave some challenge in the game besides just Epic Lord of Blades and Epic Master Artificer. Go ask for that DQ lady in Elite In the Demon's Den to get nerfed there aren't even named items in that quest.

Bowser,
Today is villain appreciation day, go wipe in the Shroud and make Arraetrikos day haven't we killed him enough to let him have one day of victory?